The Real Problem with Bandle City

[@Swimstrim]

bamdle ceety. Streaming and screaming every day at twitch.tv/swimstrim

[@kylewalek]

bungle siddy

[@alifizharulhaq3370]

Bungee jumpy

[@emred4653]

hottest ladies = strongest region

[@trytoo5167]

Balanced city :/

[@mrwhatcanido4942]

i reckon all landmarks also get HP and tough, so they can be taken out with 3damage spells but not by ping damage and 1-2 mana landmarks gets like 3 hp plus tough/spellshield. 3-5 mana landmarks with 4 hp " ". 6+ mana get 5 or 6HP " ". or so. and then buff the already existing landmark removal cards by a tad.

[@MichaelRoberts9000]

Bandle City is like if colorless cards in Magic were the same cost as the other mana colors and didn't have any extra requirements.

[@xaius4348]

Yeah, why use colored mana when I can do all the same stuff with colorless and not be locked in?

[@ninasten7312]

and at times were flat out better than those in colours

[@Qualcuno111]

I think that the most fitting comparison is "Bandle is MTG's green from Eldraine". It does its own things plus every other colour's things in its own way.

[@lol_vevo]

Riot: "Too long, didn't watch; nerfed Udyr just in case"

[@raer5373]

No no no they'll give him 5 movement speed oooooooh so broken.

[@SilenceIsDeafnin]

Hahahahaha!! Great post xD

[@counterstrike2isdead]

Udyr cost should've 4

[@marinperkovic2117]

Taliyah Malphite is a perfect example of this. Even though that deck is fine/mediocre, because Bandle has cards like Arsenal it's simply always going to be the better version of that deck, even though Landmarks are like a tertiary identity for Bandle.

[@AEVAN00B]

Not to mention Bandle's few landmarks are a LOT better than Targon's few landmarks.

[@prozenconns7082]

thats more because they decided to put malphite in one of the worst landmark regions and then tie his level up to landmarks lol

[@fredv7349]

Tbh Targon has like 4 landmarks, and none worth running

[@travisprescott9708]

Doesn't shurima have a card that grants champs +2/+2 and overwelm. That's pretty good.

[@vitorhugohomemmarzarotto1865]

@@travisprescott9708 but shurima is the main landmark region, and has the stronger landmark sinergic champion, shurima is the core of the deck the problem is that bandle makes a OP secondary region because of arsenal making sloting other region nonsensical

[@airiquelmeleroy]

Bandle should focus on: -Yordle and Fae synergies -Impact synergies (it STILL doesn't have any) -Multi-region synergies -Manifest Synergies -Attaching units to one another -Mushrooms -Damaging the Nexus -Spellshield Any other mechanic should have a "Tax". Example: Assistant Librarian has Fated for NO FREAKING REASON, fine!, it should be 3 mana then :3 Power of Friendship can give barrier? My dear friend, you're *not* demacia ;) TAXED, it's 5 mana now, or perhaps Fast speed? Etc Essentially, to create an identity without locking out diveristy, make the "identity" cards stronger than the "diverse" cards. If they decide to give Bandle City a Frostbite card, fine! But it MUST be worse than any other Freljord freeze card at a Minimum! Bonus Rant: I feel like Bandle City should have more "Impact" stuff. Cards that do something depending on the amount of impacts you've triggered... one that doubles your impact... one that turns your impact into +1 attack to the unit... possibilities are endless! Yet nothing :/ Prank + Impact + Attach + Manifest should be the main Identity of Bandle City, and more decks should be built around one of them, like Curious Shellfolk + Pranks!

[@shai310]

Yeah I really thought Gnar would be the card that really supports this impact archetype but sadly this isn't the case. The only card that really needs this archetype to work is Tristana because that poor champion feels so weak.

[@travisprescott9708]

Librarian has fated to force the player not to block it so it actually has a can to get nexus strike. Also friendship is taxed, Barrier( and spellshield) cost 3 mana on there own and 4 if there's an extra effect tied to it, you're paying 4 mana for the flexibility and 5 would make it too expensive.

[@jacobnm8687]

It’s so sad that the prank and manifest champion is literally just a bandle 6 drop

[@DrAlchem01]

I 100% agree with this

[@demonseed360]

This just seems like common sense and how every region should work. Demacia should have to venture to other options if they want good card draw or overwhelm, Noxus needs Targon or Demacia if they want to buff some of their squishier units, etc. Although, unlike MTG, having 10 regions does create some unfortunate overlap. With that being said, Bandlewood really exacerbates this issue. You can't have a region that can do everything and also do it well.

[@theyeetusmaximus170]

Bandle just does what other regions want to do but better and more efficient. There's just no downside to splashing Bandle due to its massive amount of versatility.

[@thevagabond3181]

Bandle city has built-in versatility which gives all the cards in the region a leg up. The problem, however, is that the cost of these cards seems to have been decided on an individual basis. So they are indeed 'balanced' for the most part, but will always edge out cards of equal value from other regions.

[@pivotbroz]

I completely agree with everything you said. This expansion I tried my hand in deck building and refining myself. At the end of the day my decks always turned into Bandle decks. Just the sheer value without giving up tempo and all the card draw is honestly too strong. No other region can compete

[@alifizharulhaq3370]

I sometimes hope that riot would just go "fuck it" and make unplayable cards playable (like yusari, the "giants" etc), even if it's by overtuning it, I think that would be a nice fresh air and fun

[@serac7017]

Ice born legacy

[@alifizharulhaq3370]

@@serac7017 MORE!

[@antiheroz3056]

Honestly don't think we needed a tenth region if all it does is do everything every other region does. The existing regions already are kinda boring on their own. The idea of monoregion in LoR vs monocolor in magic is night and day. I can still build interesting decks in magic with one color, jump over to LoR and you quickly run out of cards to help that particular gameplan because of how thin the amount of support most archetypes get. Like Riven will be stuck with the same cards to help her level unless they decide to randomly give a card reforge and they've really pigeonholed the whole design process. Narrow design concepts work, but only really when they get consistent support or have a decent amount of support from the get go. This kind of feeds into champions feeling underwhelming as well because despite being the equivalent in significance of a planeswalker, half of them are bad, or require a build around that robs a bit of the uniqueness, and the ones that are strong get 'disappeared' never to be seen again in any relevant fashion. Compare that to planeswalkers and while some have clear ideas of what they want in your deck, most of their deck building cost comes from cost and survivability as they effectively act as a mini-player. This makes them significant but risky to use because of how threatening and vulnerable they are. Circling back to why a tenth region wasn't needed theres a few reasons; -1) its whole identity is just every other regions identity and then some -2) it gets to double dip with units that should be in other regions that also in Bandle, and only Bandle gets this treatment automatically making the cards within the region premium value from the pov of flexibility. -3) it honestly doesn't offer anything on its own and the design space could've been used to flesh out existing regions with multi-region units, and more unique mechanics to differentiate them Even a regionless set of cards could've offered more design flexibility as any deck could splash them, and while yes they would either need to be weaker, or there would need to be some defined limit to avoid just taking as many color breaking effects, it opens up new answers to regions that wouldn't have them without making every answer 1 region. Its not a perfect solution, but Bandle City has been a total disaster of toxic design (like minimorph and minitee) and complete ignorance of why a color pie exists in the first place.

[@andrixproto46]

Because of how mana works in LOR there is virtually no reason for you to build a mono region deck

[@antiheroz3056]

@@andrixproto46 It really doesn't revolve around that so much as the regions aren't very cohesive and the payoffs for doing it just aren't good. You get your (probably shit) allegiance card to proc for sure, but you have a severely handicapped deck that doesn't even really have enough tools to do just its one thing as is. Like mono-Noxus would theoretically beat midrange decks by being too fast and aggressive but its got such bad aggro when you actually have to start adding your 30th+ card. Cards that can't block, cards that don't hit as hard, cards that require other cards. Shurima comes closest as Sun disk is a reason to play mono-shurima, but Mono-shurima doesn't have a clear identity really either. It helps a mono deck just as much because you WILL have your mana, but the problem is unlike say mono-red in magic with burn, destruction, act of treason, and other tricks to help the aggro plan, Noxus has very blunt and limited tools that aren't compelling at all. Just look at Darius for proof.

[@Warcrafter4]

Bandle City is MTG's Black without the balancing "Extra Costs"/"Weakened" effects. Black in MTG can do pretty much everything but: Either not very well/Weakened. Ex.Black can get rid of enchantments/artifacts but only while they are still in hand by discard effects. or At a big cost. Ex.Either extra costs like creature/life sacrifices or are simply over costed manawise(Either in how much it costs or how much pure black mana(Devotion) is needed). This is a very common issue in a lot of card games that like to copy MTG's Black but can't comprehend how its balanced especially when they have two of them(Shadow isle and Bandle City).

[@dj66800]

I used to play PnZ in a lot of decks for damage removal/burn and card draw, now you just play Bandle for the same thing PLUS transform PLUS stuns PLUS big minions PLUS better card generation PLUS protection PLUS card draw PLUS... It just goes on and on

[@alifizharulhaq3370]

Remember that at the time of Bandle's release, pokey stick wasn't actually showcased, it's just suddenly there after the update

[@Jesse_The_Lazy]

I totally forgot this happened. Some true degenerate BS rito pulled there

[@airiquelmeleroy]

I think it was one of the "Tournament reveals" cards right?

[@alifizharulhaq3370]

@@airiquelmeleroy youtube keep deleting my reply probably because it contains a twitter link, but basically the only time I saw it outside of the game was from a tweet by kozmic

[@YumiSumire]

It's on mobalytic probably. They definitely did reveal Pokey Stick.

[@alekseyp.9124]

I think that the best way to "fix" bandle is to make the rest of the regions better. Like 3 sisters, you get 3 cards in one, but you have to pay extra for the flexibility, bandle should work on that base, if you wanna do everything, you should not be as good in doing it as the region meant to do it.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

LMAO what? Bandle is ruining the game so buff 9 regions with hundreds of cards instead of just nerfing Bandle?

[@irrationalpie3143]

No, this would be called Power Creep, and it's the death endgame of all card games

[@alekseyp.9124]

@@irrationalpie3143 Yeah right, cause there is no power creep already.

[@irrationalpie3143]

@@alekseyp.9124 So why power creep MORE then? Buffing other regions would power creep more, if you're complaining about power creep, then you want nerfs not buffs.

[@vicious3526]

So you have a skin rash because your body decided it doesn't like wool. So instead of just stopping wearing wool, you take a drug that gets rid of the rash, but the drug harsh on your liver which means you can't do certain things, but then you go out and drink your favorite alcoholic beverage, twin discipline, and suddenly you're in the hospital with a bad case of azirellia.

[@dankmemes8254]

I am sorry ma'am but your son has only played azir irelila for 3 days straight I think it is to late for him

[@eliaswolter2955]

Howling Abyss > Bandle tree. Feels more fun to play and play against :)

[@Noadvantage246]

Swims right it's a problem that people who enjoy deck building notice the most, and deck builders are the backbone of card games. Bandle city is literally the blackhole of deck building.

[@dankmemes8254]

Bruh I was memeing in a mogwai video that the game is bugged and when you make a new deck there is always a 3 of gnar that can't be removed

[@DogginsFroggins]

I haven't been playing this game for awhile so its a bit of a surprise to me, but looking at bandle City in its current state is like they took every single bad card game design decision and decided to implement it. - Overstatted auto include champ, check - Shitty identity that infringes on other regions, check - Supremely splashable, check - Cutesy, annoying design that is mainly chibi characters that grunt, squeal or say retarded cliches, check - Enables degenerate OTK and elusive decks all in one, with minimal investment - Easy splashable finisher in yordles in arms, creating a S tier deck that there realistically is no real reason not to use, its just play the value units and finish by buffing all of them, you can even go elusive if you want. Now that I think about it this game annoys me more than it provides enjoyment...

[@CelVini]

They are too cheap and have big stats + plus their busted effects. Everything is fine IF their Power matches their cost and/or downsides, and in BC they definitely don't. Shame, since It's my favorite region...

[@martinjameson6880]

Couldn't Bandle tree be nerfed by being 'played' units? It makes BT generated units more important and makes summoned units like house spider less so. It slows BT down without slowing it too much with 'seen' since with Bandle mixed region you can get many of the units outright with the multiregion

[@Furryattack]

It can but then the cost of BT would be less

[@martinrodriguez1329]

The problem remains if you do that, which is: control decks can't do anything about it when it drops on board.

[@martraze]

Ahri/Kennen had a good MU against Pantheon. However, Pantheon still had a chance to win. Darkness/Anivia/Karma decks basically don't stand a chance against Bandle Tree. When you check on the stats you see that Bandle Tree's got something like 80 to 90% winrate against those. Traditionally, we will consider that a bad MU starts around 45% WR, here we are talking about 15% WR, that makes a huge difference. Those are two completely separate situations and I think it is totally misleading to compare them. Having hard/bad MU is a thing, but supporting the existence of impossible MU is simply wrong. If I wanted my games to be based EXCLUSIVELY on chance, I wouldn't play this game. Sorry, but I think you're completely wrong on that point.

[@ConutGnuz]

yeah but can't i just replace darkness/anivia/karma with spider aggro and tree with si/frel control? bad MUs exist because of weaknesses and strengths of decks. so while it isn't wrong to say that tree is an easy win against slow decks with near to no pressure, it's wrong to simply blame the strength of tree and not bring up the weakness of those slow decks. tree has an issue with the card not having good counters. star spring also suffers from that, but it can be recalled and the wincon needs you to play with the board and the healing rather than simply playing the deck by vomiting cards and just clearing the wincon passively. TLC had that issue because of the lack of interactibilty with the combo. fiora needs you to focus on her to beome the wincon. of course, the aspect of not having a good card (aside from scorched) to properly counter tree is one of the many issues it has.

[@dubbleyou248]

I personally think that units should have to survive the round to count towards tree.

[@ConutGnuz]

@@dubbleyou248 so it would be like 'i've seen' but worse cuz they also have to live? sounds like it would kill the deck

[@ryangarza5513]

@@ConutGnuz I'm fine with the deck being dead

[@ConutGnuz]

@@ryangarza5513 you would like it to be dead, and a lot of other would like to not see it on ladder ever again, but i really like the deck myself. riot has balance it out between the people like us who are at odds on certain decks. if riot would listen to you and only you on what decks should exist or not, then we likely would get a drastically different meta.

[@danielemazzali9810]

The problem with bandle tree is that it's an immediate wincon that happens too soon and it's practically not slowable by the opponent. Star spring is fine because it's an i've seen, It happens past turn ten, and you the opponent can slow it by not playing units, sacrificing them in combat, stunning, freezing or not fighting. Same goes for Fiora. The way to fix tree is to change One of those characteristics. Maybe instead of an immediate wincon It should work like maokai: you'll win in a few turns. Maybe it has a countdown before the win. Maybe it starts summining 2 random units every turn. Maybe it should be and i've seen effect, that would move the clock at a later turn.

[@exu7325]

BC is busted, but Bandle Tree is fine. You might as well say "kill the deck" with your suggested changes.

[@martinrodriguez1329]

@@exu7325 I disagree. Bandle tree could easily be like the sun disc and it wouldn't kill the deck.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

@@exu7325 Nah, he's right. Bandle Tree either needs more options to interact without Landmark removal or it shouldn't auto-win, just provide a very powerful effect.

[@normalostrich6250]

A way to make it work is you can run 10 bandle cards unless you have a bandle champion/ if it’s your only region, then you can have as many of them as you want. This would give all decks access but not committed to taking a region from the deck.

[@ireallygotnothing]

Bandle doing everything and better is such a problem. The other regions have to be better than bandle in their niche. Which means bandle needs to trade versatility with efficiency. The game right now doesnt do that. Instead, bandle gets both.

[@pedrovilar6123]

For Bandle tree, they coud make it so you have to attack with units from 10 different regions so you have removal in other regions other than Nox. Conchologist coud get a fake nerf like -1 health, loping telescope coud get -1 attack, Gnar shoud lose QA and lvl up and only give vulnerable (so you have to time the flip) and Wallop was a mistake for sure

[@BenjaVeraV]

Chonchologist should cost 3 mana or at least manifest cards from 2 regions, stats are fine

[@matiasbanega1717]

Yeah, i mean the stat of conchologist doesn't affect his versatibility, they have to nerf the cost or the effect, the same to telescope neither

[@MrMilitoso]

It seems like the person making bandle city cards is not the same as the one who made udyr for example, while Gnar is a 4 mana 6/5 with quick attack, overwhelm, draw and "challenger", udyr is just a 5 mana 4/4. Like wtf, is this the same game?

[@maciejkleszczynski9808]

My experience against Bandle Tree decks - I think i am facing aggro, they play some Owlcats and few other mutli region cards. I am trying to stabilize the game unless for some reason i would be playing aggro/burn deck and just tried to race them down. They play Bandle Tree casually having 7/10 regions completed for seemingly no reason. I try to win asap attacking with big board of units that arent meant to be played aggro and each gets blocked by some kind of Owlcat. Bandle tree generates missing region 2 cost follower and opponent plays another multi region follower either from their deck or manifested through Looping Telescope. My opponent wins with the Bandle Tree on turn 7 or 8 even tho i only just realized i am playing against a Bandle Tree deck 2 rounds earlier and got 1 or 2 Attack Tokens to attempt to win the game. Meanwhile I am told that according to game designers a part of Bandle region identity is meant to be having a hard time in the lategame if they dont menage to swarm them early on having access to good early game, being able to quickly generate a wide board of units and not get out of steam as quickly due to a ton of card generation, manifests and card draw. Similarly Bandle city is meant to not have a good way to beat big units without a help from another region but for some reason Minimorph is a burst spell and it is almost in every bandle deck.

[@djclero6861]

Bandle tree is similar to the old watcher, but technically even worse, in terms of interactibility because it relies on cards being summoned and in this game there is really poor hand interaction, and summoning is not something that can be prevented. Most wincons rely on combat, or at least, like in the old karma ezreal on units at least surviving, not just being summoned, and this is why conceptually any wincon relying on summon is going to cause problems at some point because there is a reasonable or unreasonable expectation that wincons in this game have to be interactible.

[@Kahlnen]

It is a control/combo deck with a midrange/aggro gameplan

[@karottenrube202]

I personally don't see a Problem with Bandle Tree per se. You just have to be faster than it, which is not too hard or you have to outcombo it. I personally enjoy playing a Xerath/Zilean deck which Features ways to destroy landmarks as well as ending the game in an Instant on turn 8, granted that the Arsenal gains Scout. The Watcher Combo was worse. No interaction. 0. You couldnt stop its process, you couldnt out aggro it because it was 90%removal and it has 2 champions in it that were extremly good at keeping the game at a halt.

[@karlholde6901]

I feel like improvising and assembling the pieces you need to win as you go, was always supposed to be the primary identity of PnZ, but what is the point of of rummaging for the cards you need when, you can just manifest them?

[@drakewinwest9888]

Thanks I was looking forward to this. Well , I am, technically I still am.

[@JayTheYggdrasil]

Solid take and really well explained. In the context of this, bandle tree is also interesting because it feels like one of the few bandle concepts that isn't cannibalizing other deck ideas.

[@sashalonex3105]

Just add "Can only be played if you have only BC cards in your deck" restriction to Bandle Tree be playable in mono-BC decks only, problem solved

[@lolphie8493]

This Might be a bad take or someone had already said this but some Bandle cards should be given to other regions, for example give arsenal to shurima and darkbulb acolyte to SI, this wouldn't change much in how you play the decks but this way their archetypes still functions without BC. I think BC shouldn't be about doing everything but better, but instead can do everything lacklusterly and needs other region to enchance it's gameplan or something.

[@aberrantreptile]

Agreed, it should be a jack of all trades, master of none. Instead it’s a master of everything at once

[@exu7325]

There is no necessity to switch the Darkness engines from BC to SI. Even if Acolyte, Robemaker, Catalyzer switched to SI, Darkness would still splash BC for the spells.

[@korayarslan5895]

I agree with this completely, but this would be a MASSIVE indirect buff to Bandle-Tree

[@lolphie8493]

@@exu7325 now that I sleep it over, I think darkness is a bad example of what I'm trying to say, I think almost all new archetype not exclusive to BC should have most of their cards be in their other regions. Toss conchologist and otterpus in BW, grant loping and friendship to Targon, lead Yordle captain to demacia, heck throw polymorph and pokey stick to freljord. This way if you want to play the archetypes, your not forced to be in BC and can still play with other regions, and if you want to play BC a specific way you have to get the go to other regions instead of the other way around

[@lolphie8493]

@@korayarslan5895 this might sound like I'm smoking something but I think maybe they change it to win when you summon ten champions from ten regions instead, each round start they give a new dual region champion, and/or give it a countdown, like if in four turns you still haven't summoned ten champion it's destroyed and you have to play a new Bandle three? I don't really know how to fix that card tbh and I'm just throwing random ideas here

[@DragunnitumGaming]

Making tree 6 mana would be a sweet change because they can't replay another in the same turn once the first is removed at 10 mana

[@vicious3526]

bandle city has a 96% win rate against zombie anivia. I'm not exaggerating the numbers.

[@KirbySaysBweo]

As an almost exclusive Zombie Anivia main, I'm impressed she even has 4%. I've won 1 game against BT with her out of maybe a solid 30+, and that was purely because a) They didn't draw BT, b) They didn't draw Minimorph to ruin my Anivia kills, and c) I highrolled and got a 3-Anivia Harrowing on turn 9. Generally now if I see BT plopped I'll just concede, but I usually don't know if I'm playing against a Tree deck or an aggro/midrangey BC deck until the tree comes down by the time I get my first Anivia on the board, so that feels pretty bad.

[@protoss5758]

@@KirbySaysBweo Well, you answered the question there: they didn't draw tree. Swims geometric calculator puts the odds of all 3 copies of tree *not* being in the bottom 15 cards at 95%. Brandle tree can stall but without tree it can't play a sustained game against non-aggro, especially not into avalanche, ravine and ruination. I mainly play Darkness but I think by turn 20 they would find the Anivias needed to turn it around

[@KirbySaysBweo]

@@protoss5758 Oh yeah, there was no question there, I'm only saying I'm merely impressed Anivia has even that 4% or 5%, but that geometric calc is probably why then. Over enough BT vs Anivia games, that averages out to about 5%. What's the winrate for Darkness into BT, because I assume Darkness at least has the ability to apply a little more pressure with Veigar?

[@protoss5758]

@@KirbySaysBweo Not at all, you can't make veigar stick at all due to ravenous flock, buster shot and minimorph so no win condition. Maybe it's 10% due to needing fewer turns for lethal but for now I'll stick to zoe diana/gnar and xeraph zilean

[@KirbySaysBweo]

@@protoss5758 Yeesh, forgot they main deck cards like Buster Shot if they're not running Tristana. Goodluck in your games, I main Freljord/SI/Bilgewater, so I'll be sticking with Plunder and some BW/SI Viego meme stuff and still try to have fun with the game while I can despite all this Gnar stuff. Tried to make Udyr/Swain work and was greatly disappointed as well, feels bad man.

[@penguinmonk7661]

Dear Swim, I am currently creating games. I had not yet heard of this book, thank you for mentioning it. As a veteran MTG player I predicted with some mates of mine what BC would do to the game and I agree. That being said, as a region it plays fun, my personal solution was to make like tribes within bandle and you can only run 1-2of those when you run bandle (like fae and stuff but instead of that it means you cannot run conch and mayor and telescope and yordles in arms and captain as they will not be in the same tribe

[@Jesse_The_Lazy]

Im excited I was there for the start of this rant but had to go to bed and just prayed it hit KZbin. (Too lazy to just watch the Vod lol)

[@jaycred8726]

Bandle is definitely becoming the 'omniregion', copying abilities and archetypes of other regions while being more versatile and not sacrificing much if any effectiveness compared to the originals (Blastcone Seedling is a notable exception). At this rate, unless you're looking for an unrepresented archetype or combination of specific cards from two other regions, there's not much reason to avoid putting Bandle in every deck.

[@elite4in1-legendsofruneterra]

I think the problem with bandle city is that conchologist needs to go three mana. Loping telescope needs to only manifest from your regions or show your opponent what ur choice. I think bandle tree isn’t really an issue and can maybe go to 6 mana. I feel wallop should have never existed. It needs to be a 4 mana card or not be Gnar champion spell. This card prevents Noxus their natural counter from exploiting their weakness through fearsome or overwhelm.

[@PeterWoodstock]

The issue with bandle tree in my opinion is that, as Bandle City currently stands, it is a really powerful alternate win condition with basically no deckbuilding cost and half the regions in the game can't interact with it. The deck can go almost aggro in low cost units, splash the best single target removals in the game, put bandle tree and VOILA, you have the deck. It's matchups get extremaly polarized due to this nature and, yeah, it will get even better with time if proper landmark removal is not release in other regions. PS: If you think about it, if they release a good SI/Bandle card for the deck, you can just dump Noxus and the deck power would skyrocket.

[@NotFlappy12]

A message to the editor: please make Swim's voice louder. I always have to turn my sound way up when I watch these videos, only to get earraped by the outro. (Other than that, good job I guess)

[@DragunnitumGaming]

Same

[@aberrantreptile]

The main thing about bandle tree that feels bad to play against is that except for rushing the enemy down, you can’t interact with the win condition in any way, which isn’t the case against other alternate win conditions. Against star spring, you can react to the enemy units that deal damage to themselves, or avoid leaving enemy damaged. Or with Fiora, you can try to deny strikes, or not give units to feed. A bandle tree player just needs to a play the unit and it’ll count, there’s no way you can interact with the bandle tree outside of just rushing them down, which with slower decks can become very annoying.

[@moonlight8451]

I see your point but i think people are missing the main thing - stop comparing it to other strategies that say " if X , then win the game". Compare it to how every other deck wins the game - for example : when VS karma ezreal , you cant do anything either. When round 10 begins , Karma is lvled and if the opponent has EZ and another 3~4 cards you have already lost, and you cant interact with it since ionia has a lot of defensive tools and you cant break your opponents mana gems. The thing is- you dont win the game, by stopping your opponent from winning , you do it by winning yourself( it may sound stupid but what im saying is - stopping your opponent is NOT the primary focus of the game. if it was then everyone was gonna run shadow isles + BC with 3 ruinations , 3vengeance , 3 minimorphs , 3 crumbles etc...). Bandle Tree is also quite simple - you dont NEED to counter it, because you dont HAVE to counter it , because there IS NOTHING to counter. You know exactly at what point your opponent will win - if you get to his nexus before that happens , you win instead.

[@KirbySaysBweo]

@@moonlight8451 The big argument against this is about control decks. Control decks are called Control for a reason. They slow the game down to allow themselves enough time to get their win condition online. Take Anivia, or Karma, or maybe any Ramp Freljord style decks. They can't end the game generally until beyond turn 10, and by that point Bandle Tree has already won long ago. Of course there are going to be bad matchups for those styles of decks, that's how it works with Tempo/Control/Aggro/Midrange archetypes, and the inbetweens. But when a deck can be so absurdly polarizing that it completely nullifies some matchups, and even value-generates itself to victory in others, that's when it becomes ridiculous. Board-based decks can also severely struggle to punch through Bandle Tree because of the sheer amount of units it can generate, and that's a huge problem when board-based decks are supposed to be its counter. Though, I suppose that's an issue more in regard to the region itself, not the tree. Some other people have also mentioned: Bandle Tree not only feels bad to lose against, but it feels bad to win with. I know you said "stop comaparing it to strategies that say "If X, then win the game"", but hear me out. In the regard of how it feels to win, let's compare it to Star Springs: Bandle Tree levels in hand, and you generally don't even need to worry about removal depending on the decks you're facing. You have that eventuality of slamming down the tree on turn 9 or 10 once you've summoned the 10 regions, and it's just a delete button. Star Springs is a landmark you have to actively work for and try to protect, from the moment it comes down 'til the moment you win the game. It feels good to win with, it feels satisfying to pop off. Or the Fiora example. You protect her with Demacia's spells, try to play around cards like Hush or Freezes, and trap your opponent into a corner to win. It's rewarding to win with. I'm not against Bandle Tree personally, I actually agree mostly with Swim, I like the concept and the idea behind Bandle Tree. But I'm outlining several others' arguments to say: Tree in its current form, even if not meta, is unhealthy in its current state, or has some design flaws that inherently doesn't make it feel good to play. And when the counter is just "You get to his nexus before he gets to yours", then the deck, or even the game for that matter, just feels bad. I could add more, or extend some points, but I've ranted more than enough I feel. In the great words of the wise Swimmothy, thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[@protoss5758]

@@KirbySaysBweo The brandle tree mirror match is also just as not fun as playing control decks into it is. Apart from manifesting a 6 cost card to protect tree from aloof no play you make matters other than the number of trees or scorched earth you draw, no matter which way it goes it's not interesting or satisfying.

[@KirbySaysBweo]

@@protoss5758 I didn't even think about the mirror matchup, that just sounds depressing honestly. I'd rather save my time and concede, unless I'm using BT to climb for whatever reason

[@protoss5758]

@@KirbySaysBweo I used it to get pushing to diamond out of the way as league borders are cutthroat as is, but that's enough BT, the matchups you win by tempo are fun but not the tree

[@shield_rat221]

I hate minimorph/megatee so much, it makes building around any champion based win con such as buffing up the new udyr or riven completely stupid, if you wanna nerf lee sin at least give regions other than targon/ionia ways to deal with champion silence so we can have fun with our garbo decks :/

[@patlee4858]

hey swim, thanks for featuring my reddit comment on ur stream. idk if u read youtube comment… the reason i mention the second half of my comment was just because i m very reserve about nerfs….. so the comment does read a bit sus but i do acknowledge theres some stuff in bc that is just too much adding to this, yes couchologist as i explain in follow up post, i dont think couchologist is the card to target. the issue with couchologist is the region itself as a value generating region. it contributes to the problem but it is not the problem itself.

[@him_That_is_me]

the idea of bandle city itself is awful. it's meant to let regions do things they should not be able to do. that is the literal purpose of the bandle city region. it fucks up the game by it's very existence. literally delete bandle city and remake it from the bottom up as it's own region. the multi-region idea was a mistake since it completely infects the entire meta. as is, it has no identity of it's own other than being nitro fule for other regions. this might be fixed if they lean into "play other regions", "...has lowe power/health than me" or Fae and start crippling the multi-region cards but again, that seems to not be what Riot wants to do. if they don't give bandle city it's own identity we will be stuck in swinging between bandle city being complete trash or always dominating because the question will always be "do i benefit from bandle cards?" if yes: the vanilla region versions of cards are worse, lets run bandle. if no: the vanilla cards are better, why run bandle? it's also going to be a MASSIVE problem to fix because as long as there is just one really good bandle card that a deck wants, that might be enough to push out any other vanilla region card that competes against a bandle card. TLDR multi-region was a huge mistake that fundamentally fucks up the game-balance and riot are going to be paying for it until they start vaulting cards

[@karottenrube202]

I disagee. IT's flexibility is what makes Bandle City Bandle City. Not only lorewise but also from a game design perspective. Instead of straight up improving certain strategies, it should add a new spin on it. Instead of summoning landmarks, bandle city focuses on their destruction. Instead of buffing your units with spells and keywords, you buff them with Attach units. And so on

[@devilix123987]

This articulation of Bandle City gives me the same feeling as LoR in the early days. Shadow isles had this same feel to it - when you're building a deck, why use x y and z regions while building these deck concepts, when you could just use Shadow Isles instead, and often times play Elise, as one of the best 2 costs in the game (at the time). This is very much how Bandle feels right now, a lot of potential deck concepts are being invaded/compromised by Bandle, and sometimes certain champions (e.g. Lulu + Poppy pre-nerf and maybe Gnar?)

[@stefandjurica9219]

I think the bandle has early yugioh problem. Too many generaly low synergi cards that give value and are great. Thats why they even had to ban more than half og powerhouse value.

[@astrograph7875]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[@greataetherman]

When it comes to landmark interaction I don’t understand why riot never bothered to add landmark interaction to old cards. Like vengeance for instance because there could easily be cards change retroactively

[@H0m0f1rST]

The whole game design bit hurt really bad as a long time league player. For a long time now the team has been exclusively balancing symptoms in place of addressing the core problems with the game, creating a more and more unbalanceable mess. Sprinkle in a couple crack fueled feverdream ideas of bronze devs like mythic items, rng dragons and mechanics or revive mechanics, and you get the absolute shamble of a metagame we constantly experience. I get it's really hard to find out the core problems, but the sheer level of either incompetence or unwillingness to at least try really gets to me as someone who is also somewhat passionate about game design.

[@theodorehuang9881]

Yeah please tell 'em, Mr. Swim!

[@trooperscientists2000]

an analogy: you have bad lungs so you cough. Now you take some medicine and it helps with your cough, but it won't repair your lungs. Bandle city are your smoker lungs and Minimorph, Poki stick or Gnar are your cough. Will nerfing them help? Yes. Will it fix the fundamental issue with the Region? No More balance patches would be like going to the doctor more often to get a check-up. With the region identity thing: We kinda want to have different organs to have different functions. We don't want hands to merch with Lungs and mouths. My weird body analogy.

[@JohnPaul-nb5iu]

That was so bad lol.

[@archigokuyo7134]

Loping telescope should be -1 health

[@xaius4348]

Since Bandle has flexibility, the simplest fix would be to just weaken it's power. Make it a region that can fit into anything else, but can't stand on it's own. I think the best way to do this would be to just give all of their units low stats, but let them keep all the "bs" since every deck uses unit stats to some extent, and it isn't a core part of bandle's identity. (Keep in mind, this solution wouldn't fix everything, and is only meant to be the simplest to implement band-aid) If I were to have complete control over re-designing bandle, then I think it should be essentially impossible to build a pure bandle deck. Sure they can have a lot of different things they can do, but not enough of any one of those individual things available to make an entire deck around it with just bandle. It should be a region where you could run a bunch of different individually powerful cards, but they can't make a cohesive deck on their own. Take away Bandle's independence (it's substance). Bandle can be the best glue that holds decks together, but you can't make a deck out of just glue. That's how I see a healthy identity for Bandle. It's more complicated than just this, but It needs something to hold it back, a cost to what you gain. As for how to turn Bandle into this idea, that would be difficult, and require a lot of changes. To start, they should rework or nerf their staple cards (either in straight up power, or making them more niche in use). They should also poke holes in a few of bandle's archetypes, so that they are more reliant on their second region. Not so much by hitting the archetype defining cards, but by targeting their support cards (ex: imagine a powerful champion card that has no synergy with it's own region) More Specific Changes: One problem card is loping telescope, so I think they should just make it Targon exclusive. I think this card is fine, it just isn't fine in bandle. This would also be a welcome nerf to bandle tree for the people that hate that deck. An interesting way to nerf conchologist (that fits with my philosophy of fixing bandle) would be to make it only able to manifest non-bandle cards (in other words: only cards from your second region). This once again pushes bandle towards the identity of being a support region. (If this region rework concept was properly implemented, The only "Pure Bandle Deck" that could really exist, would be the Bandle Tree: the deck that is comprised of a bunch of disjointed pieces that only make sense in the context of the bandle tree itself.) As for how I would change Bandle tree itself, I think it needs to have more of a deckbuilding cost. The easiest way to do this would be to make it generate less cards for you. This would make playing cards from 10 regions a lot higher of a deck-building cost, and less consistent. Perhaps it only generates a card every other turn, or only the turn you play it (You could easily reduce it's cost to compensate for this heavy nerf). The opposite approach of this nerf would also be to reduce the amount of cards it generates, but instead of doing this directly, you would do it indirectly by increasing it's mana cost. Next, nerfing Yordles in arms. This card is bit too good, so let's just make it harder to abuse. Instead of saying "If you've summoned or cast cards from 4+ regions," It would say, "If you control units from 4+ regions." (This means you would have to actually represent 4 regions at the same time, not just have played or summoned them at some point earlier.) I'm no game design expert though, so feel free to continue this discussion in the replies.

[@KirbySaysBweo]

Almost everything you've said, I agree with. Your design philosophy for Bandle City is how I was expecting BC was supposed to be on the day it was revealed, and I wish it were that way now, I think that would be both the healthiest and the most thematic change to actually give Bandle City a region identity. Now for some discussion: The only card I really feel the need to mention due to any disagreements or bringing up other points is Bandle Tree, as the other changes I agree with (Telescope and Conch nerfs I really enjoy the idea of for flexibility limiting based on generation). To change Bandle Tree, I'll first bring up some other arguments people have proposed. Some brought up the idea of making it act similarly to Sun Disc, a 1 mana landmark that comes down immediately for free on Turn 1 in a pure Bandle deck where the goal is trying to generate cards from other regions (i.e bringing other regions back through the portals into BC), and triggering an "I've Seen" win condition. Another change someone suggested was: Make it so that Tree keeps the current win condition, but make it "You've summoned 10 regions" AND "I see X multiregion cards/cards from X region currently in play", that way the BT player can't hold Bandle Tree in hand until turn 7 and throw it down on an empty board to win. My idea: Truthfully, I haven't thought about this very much, so instead I'll give some problems I've had and try to work from there as I type. An inherent problem I've experienced with BT is, of course, the "Level in hand, throw down when 10/10 is reached, win the game if no interaction." Another problem I've experienced is, turn 10 they throw down BT, I destroy one, they throw down another. But I only had 1 landmark removal card in hand. Nerfing the cost to 6+ could easily fix that issue. An inherent identity problem with the deck I've noticed is: As the non-BT player, you sometimes don't know you're facing BT if the opponent is playing outside of Noxus/Bandle, and you don't realize it until turn 6 or 7 when the tree finally comes down. Also, the deck innately feels like it's a very go-wide aggro deck, or maybe a little mid-rangey, but with a combo win condition. Am I playing against aggro or combo? And if I auto lose by playing control but it throws out chump blockers left and right, how do I kill it if I'm not racing them down in aggro? Changing Bandle Tree needs more than just a nerf to its cost, it needs the gameplay style or win condition of it altered in my opinion, and depends on the design philosophy of the deck its meant to go in. Maybe it could be a cheaper landmark to support a Bandle Aggro strategy, where aggro face damage is your win condition and the landmark supports that? Or maybe it should be like the second change from others I mentioned, where it still auto-wins like Star Springs when you've summoned all regions, but make it need to be seeing a board of regions in some form or other. Or only trigger the "You've summoned" win condition when the Tree sees them summoned, but keep each region trigger across each tree removed (i.e 3 cost Tree, turn 4 you play House Spider and tree gets removed after, the Tree has now seen SI and Noxus despite being removed, almost like it retains the memory of what it's seen across the lifespan of each tree). That kind of design would still need some kind of interactibility, as the opposing player can't interact with the Tree seeing Plays/Summons, but it's an idea direction going forwards. Ultimately, this all depends on what identity change Bandle City itself would have as a region, and then making a fitting redesign of Bandle Tree to fit that while still keeping the idea of accelerating a win condition or being its own win condition like Star Springs. On the topic of Bandle Tree generating cards you haven't summoned yet... I'm not sure how to go about balancing that based on region identity, hence not exactly mentioning it in my change proposals.

[@xaius4348]

@@KirbySaysBweo Nerfing it to 6 mana is definitely the simplest change. Doesn't fix every problem with it, but slows it down at least. I think more of the card's problem is just Bandle. As you mentioned, it's a bit crazy how early the deck can kill you with nexus damage, something that it isn't even attempting to do in the first place. So in a way, yordles in arms ends up being the real culprit. Pretty much any nerf to Bandle is an indirect nerf to tree, so alongside other nerfs, 6 mana cost might be enough. Restricting the card to only played units (excluding summons) would be a slight nerf as well. Another concept that might work would be to change the payoff. Maybe instead of winning, it would be something juuuust shy of outright winning. For instance: If you've played units from 10 regions, your units are unkillable and elusive for the rest of the game.

[@deckkie]

I think BC's problem is mostly that it is the last region. BC isn't actually that good at many things. They lack a lot of the traditional ways to close out games like elusive, overwhelm, reach. It feels like Riot just has a much better idea about what you want to play at which mana. With that, this last expansion got a lot of 2 mana value generators (because Riot found out this is good), 3 mana engines, and 4 mana high impact units. Other regions actually got these cards too this expansion, even though they didn't really have it before. BC just got more of them because it is their expansion. At the same time regions have all kind of engines that are too expansive/conditional, that just don't work well enough. When Riot saw their stats and found out that a high mana engine doesn't work, all BC engines became 3 mana (with exceptions to every rule of course).

[@rizv13elieve90]

When they make more landmark removal, then what about the decks which depends fully on landmarks. Scarground, targon peak and starspring decks only exist because of the landmark. Just to counter bandle tree, it's not fair to destroy other decks and champs. Just to mention, they already nerfed temple and grand plaza to the doom.

[@martinrodriguez1329]

If a deck fully depends on a landmark, then the deck itself has a problem. Scargrounds is mainly Vladimir's shell but it's not needed in order to succeed, it's just a plus. Same with temple, plaza and a few more. Both starspring and peaks are examples of bad decks if they purely rely on it, and have the same issue as the tree: essentially unremovable and can autowin, they just do it worse than the tree. That shouldn't happen, and it's why both safer sage and the watcher were nerfed. Now they need to do it on handle tree

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

@@martinrodriguez1329 Star Spring has way more counterplay than Bandle Tree. Besides the option of destroying it, killing off units whenever possible so they can't be healed will slow the landmark's wincon.

[@martinrodriguez1329]

@@100organicfreshmemes5 sure, but the effect is still very dull and as long as they keep those designs as a fun but not extremely competitive deck, then it's fine. If not, then you have a big problem (aka bandle tree).

[@4mbrobro91]

I think the best way to balance Bandle Tree is to create multi region cards either : -randomly like you can get certain regions you already played -always regions not played but every time you have the attack token or some fixed countdown (2 or 3).

[@TheKirout]

every alternate win con card is a pain to balance, it's not just bandle tree Like, look at Fiora. That card hanst been balanced in AGES, it sucks complete ass and is basically worthless. You cant make alternante win cons completely balanced it will always lean towards one side, and I dont think we should stop printing alternate win cons because, as a non competitive player, they're the cards I'm excited for, excited to make decks around. And let's face it, as much as content creator and their audience tend to dislike it, non competitive players are what keep the game afloat.

[@YumiSumire]

Idk what you mean by alternate wincon, but i think it downright needs to stop existing. "Win the game" as a text is just lazy design and will always be unbalancable and there's no argument about it.

[@TheSpunYarn]

I love when Swim talks about design. A great deal of content creators for most card games never really go as deep as the actual creation and concepts within a game. I love it!!! God, if we're talking about games that aren't designed to be balancable, YuGiOh could be disected for ages. Absolutely ridiculous game.

[@mariogunawan5844]

I have never fully listened to a podcast but this is just so insightful that i cant skip it

[@enviousgrey]

Actually it's pretty ez to balance. Make every BC card +1 mana and add this card: Landmark: "Start of Game: If all your cards (at the beginning of the game) in your Deck are from Bandle City, summon 1 of me from your deck. All your cards cost 1 less. Countdown 25: Summon a Bandle Tree." Problem solved.

[@jaycred8726]

Would be an interesting idea as a feature of the region, making Bandle City cards cost 1 more or be weaker in some way unless you're playing mono. That would also make multi-region cards weaker when you're pulling them from Bandle (like Bandle decks with Gnar would have him as 5-cost but in Freljord decks he'd be 4-cost). Could also make Bandle more interesting as the only region that has a good reason to be played mono.

[@I_want_waffles]

My problem with Bandle Tree is that they don't have to interact with the board just dish out the units then win as long as they complete the condition, but even without the tree it's a bandle swarm. it's not like star spring where if you destroy the landmark it hinders their wincon and actually have to interact with the board

[@infrnlmssh9719]

If 6 mana for Tree does nothing, and I''ve seen kills it... what about "Played"?? "You win the game once you have *played* units from 10 different regions"

[@ZIMMER1994]

Hey Swim, what do you think about removing dual-region cards to have to force more of a deck building cost for taking Bandle City?

[@GevolGG]

The only strong dual region cards are the champions, the other ones are playable but meh, only the Bandle Tree benefits for playing tyem. The problem with bandle city is the extreme value of generating cards for free everytime.

[@brentdunlop8760]

gnar is a fun design to me. It's not super convoluted and a nerf to gnar wouldn't make the deck any less fun tbh. Out of all the BC cards, he would probably be the simplest to fix.

[@YumiSumire]

Gnar is not fun at all, and I'm a Gnar main from League. He's just a high value and low synergy card that can be slotted into many decks. To some people, sure that's fun. But it is just creating the same problem of Bandle city again.

[@naser3000x]

i wonder would mini-morph be more balanced if it became a fast speed spell or will it be more broken...hmmmm

[@Masterom2000x]

The problem with bandle tree is that without landmark removal you have ZERO ability to interact with stopping their game plan. They just need to play X cards and they win. Unless you are aggro you have a really low winrate against this as your removal and whatnot means nothing to them.

[@peacepham7838]

That's not valid argument. You could say the same with Liss/Taliyah deck.

[@Masterom2000x]

@@peacepham7838 No? You can kill the watchers, block them, put them back in hand. It's not an instant win when they hit the field. Again, unless you maindeck landmark destruction, which they can just play another and still win, you have zero ways to interact with bandle city win condition.

[@protoss5758]

@@peacepham7838 That's only true if they get to 4 thralls, which requires a lot more setup than "play 6 decently statted dual region cards". it also puts actual deckbuilding constrictions, Shurima/Freljord is much more restrictive while last seasonal the 2nd place player brought three brandle tree decks.

[@shai310]

I think BC should be more like a "jack of all trades master of none" region. The fact it has so many tools and they are really great tools makes it so annoying to play against, and I highly disagree on Swim's take about BT. Yes decks like Zombie Anivia would get rolled if they can't apply much pressure but the thing is that is take a while for Anivia to apply any pressure and even if she does BC is a region that'll just swarm the board and if Anivia or any control deck doesn't have an answer for it they will lose and the only thing the BT player needs to do is just summon one unit and chill. This just promotes a boring and a non-interactive concept and that's bad for the game. Do I think landmark removal should be buffed? Yes, but that won't solve the issue imo, especially with the amount of copies of said removal you're willing to run in your deck. Riot should just look at the this region and hit the card that do too much bs and then that'll maybe balance out the bs this region can do.

[@NeroEB]

I'll say it again, Riot doesn't know how to balance a card game. We always have a champ or two that run the meta where the other 95% of champs are utterly useless in the current meta. Remember nightfall? daybreak? Lurk? would be nice for those decks to get some support wouldn't it on a release basis not just thrown in the trash. Gnar is everywhere, before it was ahri/kennen, lissandra/trundle, TF/Fiz, aphelios and the list goes on. Find a way to make every champion some what viable and this game can thrive. When the top ten players in the world are all running Gnar decks and that's it, there is a problem.....

[@Permafrost1]

Well, give us the solution then, saying "rito bad" doesnt do anything except for continuing the circlejerk and this is not the place for it

[@NeroEB]

@@Permafrost1 Am i a game developer? No so how can i come up with a full solution. IMO they are too far gone, They already messed up with their release schedule of champions without ever giving support to older archetype decks as i mentioned in my first comment. If you never give decks any support they can't keep up with the power creep of the overall game. That's just a basic concept that they missed completely. One solution that could help is instead of a release of a new champion cards they do an expansion with just regular units and spells that help grow and support each region for these niche archetypes. Make new nightfall cards, make new lurk cards, hell make more armored cards. Problem is when decks get no support they just get thrown in the trash, same goes for the champions.... When was the last time you saw nocturne, apehlios, nautilus etc played?

[@xenades7189]

"Proper Landmark Removal" isn't the issue so much as the fact that Landmarks represent a parallel use of game space that does not translate into the 'gaming language' of LoR. By this I mean: The back and forth passing of priority is the foundation for strategic gameplay in the game. The amount of interactivity ALONG COMMON LINES OF PLAY matters. Much like shadow in M:tG, Landmarks create a parallel interaction zone separate from the rest of the flow of the game and card pool. Consider Monkey Idol and Powder Keg. These are both prototype Landmarks, but one is self limiting with damage (similar to countdown, but not exactly the same) and the other represents a one time use effect (that can be pulled with Vulnerable). I would much prefer that the developers find a common language of interaction than print dedicated Landmark Removal cards. For example: 1) Rather than have an Immobile keyword (That Nami calls out), fold it into Landmark. Let Monkey Idol be affected by Landmark cards. Is it a unit as well? Maybe. That is a secondary topic. 2) Give all Landmarks HP. Give ones that should be durable Tough. Let Challengers/Vulnerable hit them. Let Damage Spells affect them. Wyrding Stones and Faces of the Old Ones? Also Landmarks with 2 HP and Tough now. Should Kill spells hit Landmarks? Maybe. Again that is a secondary topic. The first order of business is making sure they cards have the basis of common language. 3) Rather than make Countdown Landmarks that ALSO do their thing when destroyed, just make the landmarks do the thing when their Countdown reaches Zero. Streamline the Xerath/Ziggs package into something that might benefit from self-harm. 4) Rather than have non-Countdown, triggered Landmarks that take up lateral board space, turn them into a Keg type stack. While Kegs stack damage for an all or nothing explosion, there is no reason why the Shurima Vulnerable Grants can't lose a single Stack for each enemy Summoned for streamlining and board conservation while adding something like Vulnerable form Kegs to make a clean interaction line where a player must attack into them to reset the stack to either 0 or -1. Will this fix everything? No, but LoR does not need a card pool that is so fractured in its lines of play that two people can play a game where their actions do not have any basis for a common playing field.

[@Rebazar]

Jack of all trades, master of... all trades!

[@sojou.RN.]

I would think that this issue with Bandle will become very clear in data-driven analysis when looking at the percentage of each region in decks played. Because of the value of Bandle oppressing other regions, the number of Bandle-X decks should show a much greater proportion than any other combination. I agree with you though that solving this issue would be incredibly complicated since it has much to do with the identity of Bandle as a region. You can really feel it when you want to make any Bandle champion deck. Let's make a Fizz deck with X Champion. Now do I choose BW or Bandle? 1 damage pings, or raw value? Bandle is almost always the answer.

[@Rannulfus]

Bandle city was the real void the entire time

[@sapphire--9375]

The reason lor splits its cards into region is to help give each reason and deck an good identity that people can enjoy without their deck being drowned out. The problem with bandle comes when you dont play bandle for its identity, but because you were building a specific or “lower end” deck when you realized bandle simply does a similar thing better. Bandle destroys alot of identity. Also i like his stick point. Its more important to give everyone their stick they can enjoy than it is to make them all the same size.

[@milankoblitz9510]

I often get exited when I see swim being so smart - it's so sexy lol

[@mohamedsamir4405]

Just give bandle city deny and everything will be cool

[@icanwalcc3190]

I mean Friendship exists

[@thereverseeffect7269]

Tree beats Darkness even if Darkness is able to apply pressure to most boards

[@brewinaw4943]

If we reduced the power stat of ALL Bandle City cards by 1 (i.e. Conch is a 1|2 and Shellfolk is 3|4) that would make the region Less Powerful! Easy! Also make Friendship 5 mana, that'd be sick too

[@dankmemes8254]

The issue isn't stats the issue that it does what other region does better

[@travisprescott9708]

Friendship would be crap at 5 and shellfolk is fine now

[@daimonos418]

In the limit this reduces deck choice to "Bandles+x" as an S/S+ tier strategy.

[@user-dm9cw5vi1i]

I feel like changing it to a 6 cost and adding something like "at least one multitrait unit has to be on the board to win" would be better since then people can at least try board wipe or remove the units instead of having to hopelessly wait for tree to explode on u idk :(

[@osoperezoso2608]

I work in data. I'm a qualitative Researcher for a tech company. Swim was on the right track here. Riot needs to not only be looking at number data, they also need to listen to the human data. Google qualitative research and you'll see what I mean. Too long to type.

[@THESARCASTICSCARFACE]

Regarding landmark, I agree that there's no need for more landmark removal, but what I disagree with regarding bandle tree or similar landmarks with ( if u do this win the game ) is that landmarks should be a way to enhance your gameplan, not your actual gameplan and the problem with bandle tree decks is above the dumb tree the units are actually good, fiora has a game win condition but its a unit that can be delt with at least

[@ungodly]

The problem Bandle Tree has it that it works without even being on the field, just have it not count its progress unless it's on the board, make it even 3 or 4 mana instead. I've seen would ruin it but having its progress go up only when it's on the field wouldn't be bad.

[@KrSaPoww]

I think this issue could be mitigated if the dual region mechanic wasn't restricted to Bandle City. I honestly believed Senna would be Dual Demacia and SI before her release and it was a bummer she didn't, for me, at least. I also think BC is not the best region to be the final one, specially if we think about this "no identity" problem, but thats more like a taste matter. (I'm a diehard Ixtal fan, so this last part is really biased)

[@t-1156]

"They Saw the delta was too high" If I had any doubt, no I know what Swim loves to study

[@lx-icon]

Hey Swim - just wanna say, really appreciate your content, and how you articulate your thoughts in a very measured way. I think the gaming community overall is easily swept up in everything being either "broken" or "bad" in literally every game, and it feels impossible to have any kind of reasonable discussion online these days. Would love to see more of this type of content!

[@darkknightx0992]

I agree with you, but I also dislike the alternate win cons like bandle tree or Fiora. They bypass the interactivity of the games core combat system. Unfun rng and uninteractive archetypes are not healthy for the game. That's what killed hearthstone.

[@protoss5758]

However Hearthstone is now turning around and returning to promoting control strategies while Riot is further reinforcing that the game is meant to end turn 8, and printing 9unit/12spell mana cards was an accident

[@Swampert919]

What you said about landmarks is such a bad take. if riot wants to make win con landmarks then landmark interactions is a necessity. This game is built around interaction, that’s the whole point of the spell stack, having a win con that the opponent is effectively not allowed to interact with it is extremely unhealthy. Win first or you don’t get to play. This goes way beyond bandle city as well. Control decks are the ones that suffer the most, but anyone who isn’t an aggro deck suffers… interaction is very important and when a deck takes away interaction it becomes anti fun (and that’s not just landmarks, concurrent dreadledros, frostborn poros, azirelia, TLC all low interaction decks that just weren’t healthy). But the biggest problem with tree is that bandle city is an aggro region, it’s the best at swarm and one of the best at burn. When you face aggro you tend to look to endure, control and match their tempo until they are out of steam. But you don’t get to do that vs bandle tree (which is pretty much an aggro deck), because if you don’t race them down you auto loose. That makes them extremely painful to face, because you either are a faster deck and win, or you loose off them top decking a tree and you auto loosing on the spot because of it. The rest of what you said is fair though.

[@quanghieulee238]

Bandle tree problem is that its alternate win condition doesnt interact with your opponent unlike fiora or star spring. Landmark removal is rare, hard to use card, entire enlighten archtype have 1 good counter is home comming. Bandle tree now is not a problem card because it's not meta but once they give it enough support, non-shurima control deck will disappear.

[@rma_a01]

I would make multi refion cards fit into a deck that contains only those 2 regions. It would also make bandle tree more balanced, because you would need to have it on board to generate more units from other regions (also in that case it would need some sort of buff like lower cost or less amount of regions requierd). While it seems like it wont solve issue, because you are forced to run bandle if you wanna play mutli region card, at least you cannot run other multi region cards that would make your deck better than if you had paired it with other region. I dont think its the best idea, but its the only one I could come up with.

[@Grimm-A]

This is why i follow this guy Cool guy

[@UberSeamus]

Conchologist could be a 2/1 and I’d still auto jam it in so many decks. Still would be an amazing card

[@izlude9283]

I think the problem is not Bandle being so flexible and better than the other regions. I think the problem is that regions literally have bad cards and worst cards compare to their BC counterparts. Riot should over time patch those regions for them to be better at their own theme. BC should incentivize decks that use multi-region but the consequence is single region cards should be better. The fact that the main theme of Bandle is being a "multi-region" is what cannibalizing decks.

[@cubandarknez]

Didn't we have a similar problem with targon? Where for a meta or so deck building was targon+x?

[@insanescout9130]

See I was agreeing with everything you were saying then you were drinking a diet soda pop and now I just wanna say bandle is a perfectly balanced region

[@xaius4348]

Honestly, Loping telescope should probably be a targon only card, that's fair.

[@damianskiba4876]

The fact that bandle tree works from hand and mono shurima and star spring, the other two landmark focused decks don't and are hard countered by landmark removal is inherently broken. As it is right now destroying the tree does almost nothing

[@jeth3540]

Literal 0 dislikes on this vid, hire this man rito!!!

[@brianjones5299]

Love the recent content keep it coming!

[@LOLorz]

I think choncologist and telescope need to be 3 mana. Those cards are strong because it can give you early game plays or late game plays. You can make Bandle Decks with some early game, and lots of late game. Those two cards have the chance to manifest cards for turn 3 and 4, filling in the gap. They make bad hands instantly better so you aren't blown out in the early game.

[@chrispiasecki9324]

Only way I could see it being a seen the 10 units played, is if it has the same treatment as Sun Disc. An only Bandle deck has it auto placed onto board turn 1, and it would probably need a spellshield or else the deck auto loses to any landmark removal? Idk i just returned to the game and its the only deck ive been playing but i also played star spring before so its just the type of way i like to play