The REAL REASON Marika ABANDONED Messmer | Elden Ring Lore

[@tropezando]

Floating orb flame spells remind me of me of the various floating orb moon spells. Notably, Messmer's and Rellana's spells both feature them slamming their orbs to the ground, perhaps a nod to the close bond, mindset, and fate shared between them.

[@icarusablaze1831]

6:49 I'm so glad you're mentioning this! It's something I believed as soon as I heard him repeat it after he kills the Tarnished. It's his mantra that he chants to maintain his resolve, but it's really the curse Marika placed on him. It's so similar to the curse she puts on Hewg, to forge a weapon to slay a god. Marika is able to inspire fanatical devotion in people, but that blind devotion always becomes a curse they live and die by.

[@heatheroutre]

@@icarusablaze1831 Additionally Horrah Loux, if we take Melina's dialog about Marika's speech to Godfrey and his warriors when she stripped them of Grace

[@heatheroutre]

Marika has gold snake bracelets in the trailer(as far as i can tell) i think the abyssal serpent might be the ancient serpent god and if that's the case, Marika might have been given to it as a bridal offering (thinking about the giant serpent in sekiro). What better gift to a god than your best creation? It's also possible Marika also has/had the abyssal serpent in her too, as part of the jarring ritual.

[@steamedhamlet]

Join the ancient serpent as family! Wow I was thinking about the sekiro snake yesterday wondering what the connection could be. This is so fitting. Marika reaches in to the snake's eye like Wolf stabs the snake's eye.

[@SweD5425]

There's speculation that the thing Marika plucked the golden strands out of was a giant serpent. Its flesh was soft, as if it had just freshly shed its skin, and we also find a giant snake skin just laying around in Bonny Village. Rather than Radagon, I wonder if Messmer's father was the serpent, since Messmer's 2nd phase snake is a similar color of white that the serpent in the trailer was.

[@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710]

the fell gods flame has some good untapped lore. It looks like a sun, but in Mesmer's case, being slammed down. Then there is the symbol of the snake eating the erdtree at volcano manor, along with another weapon Bernal uses that has another sun explode, then Messmers phase 2 serpent also does this attack slamming the sun in its mouth to the ground. The warming stone says something about the erdtree having warmth like the sun, so the snake eating the sun and erdtree become similar themes. The only person to have the sun as their symbol is Godwyn, but the only reference to the current state of the sun is "Frigid" or cold. Godwyn was also loved by dragons, who's loved is earned through surviving cladding yourself in lightning. Godwyn through his death knights, you find out(even though its in the base game) that he can be reincarnated through surrogate mothers, most like chosen specifically for their ability to do so. Now remember the dragons await the return of their god, the same fell god that can die and rebirth. the same fell god also has to do with the frenzy flame, through containment and isolation, and probably experimentation on how to control. Which the game will try and convince you can't be controlled, but frenzied burst would state there was some success. And the incantation describes the victory through its use, you have to use the flame in a controlled burst, or it will rupture like a volcano, and cause the year of no summer or something(night of black knives). Theres a movie called Mary Shelly's Frankenstein, that might blow your minds when you really think about Radagon and Godwyn. If anyone watches it, check out stormcaller church, in game after.

[@TheBitingBat]

Messmer was too much of a real one for that strumpet Marika

[@SilverMooney]

Haha for real 🤣

[@cristiancampos7807]

Another banger! I hadnt thought of the two serpents as an Uroboro, pretty compelling. I'd really like to know your thoughts ln the Gloam Eyed queen. Hope you keep pushing out vids with such quality and incisiveness

[@SilverMooney]

Thank you so much!!

[@smite5372]

good video. I Also think that messemer refering to himself in the third person is an act of disasociation as he burns through the hornsent betrayed by his mother. Messemer locked away in the shadow realm is depressed repeating the same tired lines of dialogue over and over telling the player how he will make them both face oblivion. The flame burns people in both body and soul which they almost worship. And the eye represents a sadness hidden within. The abyssal serpent has the same name as the abyssal woods likely because they come from the same concept of death and escapism which the gloam eyed queen also shares. and the an abyss is sometimes depicted like a deep blackened eternal sea or void. Sea and water like godwyn the death prince. They seek death to grant themselves a mindless freedom or innocence not to dissimilar from several religions like budism meditation. I don't know much i just want my thoughts to be out there for some more smart people to see if theres a correlation.

[@DiegoSilva-bs9gk]

You have great ideas! Please, keep uploading new insights!

[@SilverMooney]

Thank you so much! I'm so excited to make more videos!

[@Jadizi]

It annoys me that Marika is known for revenge on the Hornsent and her kids were cursed for it, but the Hornsent chop all the Shaman up for freaky jar stuff and everyone is just like 🤷🏾‍♂️. The hornsent deserved it.

[@ravendelacour1917]

Violence begets violence and the cycles of revenge and retribution continue until all participants are unwilling or unable to continue them.

[@Jadizi]

@@ravendelacour1917 The shaman did nothing but teach them spirit tuning. That turn the other cheek crap benefits no one but the aggressor.

[@ravendelacour1917]

@@Jadizi Yet look at the state of the Lands Between in the game. This is where that path went. Do you think it was a good result?

[@Writh811]

I sincerely thought you were gonna say Messmer is the result of a union between Marika and the Fell God of Fire. These days that theory has been feeling right to me. But here's my logic: Messmer is, as you said, fire and snakes. The Fell God definitely has an easy fire association but there is also snake association as well. The Giant's forge is adorned in snakes. This possible link would explain why Messmer hates his flame, if he is the child of the Fell God we know the Flame of Ruin can destroy the Erdtree. So obviously, he hates how he is a liability to the Erdtree. This is also why Melina was the Kindling Maiden, a role seemingly associated with the Giants' Forge. We're told Marika herself slew the Fell God, could that be what's being shown in that trailer? Perhaps the war against the Giants kicks off shortly after that moment. I guess a test for the theory would be comparing Messmer's face with the Furnace Golem, since that depicts the Fell God and seeing if there is a familial resemblance. The Fell God was a god during the time of the Tower Folk. Marika may have seduced it and slew it but out of that single seduction came Messmer and Melina. Marika may have been seen as a liberator by the Hornsent. Perhaps it was the admiration or just the desire to have that power for themselves that would cause them to start Jarring Shaman. The process of course didn't and was never gonna work; per Miyazaki Empyreans are born with their "twisted existence." But darn it they were sure if they stuffed enough folks in a pot they could make their own. Which of course leads to word getting back to Marika and Messmer getting sent on crusade.

[@brentramsten249]

"she killed all those people" i have a question: how? before becoming a god there is no evidence ive found that she has any kind of combat ability or even followers that would kill on her behalf. perhaps a more likely scenario would be 1. the hornsent can and have killed their own given sufficient cause 2. they worship the spiral which leads them to godhood. 3. the hornsent somehow learned of the curcible, which requires lot, and LOTS of bodies, which would aid them in making the god their culture is built around making (and venerating). 4. the practice of making jar saints which was supposed to aid them in the holy pursuits. this is a rather unique storm of circumstance in which the hornsent would realistically slaughter their own people to give marika her godhood. it would also explain how VERY resentful the hornsent sound at marika's betrayal considering what they paid to make it happen.... cause otherwise their just very spiteful that their slave decided to stop being a slave once she had the power to do so, which comes off as ALL kinds of pathetically petty.

[@blender-c4r]

completely agree with you

[@spacemegalodon5049]

@brentramsten249 maybe Maliketh was around at that time and killed the hornsent for her.

[@brentramsten249]

@@spacemegalodon5049 maliketh (marika's shadow) was a reward from the greater will after 1. becoming a god and 2. agreeing to obey the greater will. it was also a fairly literal sword of Damocles that heavily implied what would happen should she ever stop obeying the greater will. as far as im aware, maliketh was never in the realm of shadow

[@spacemegalodon5049]

@brentramsten249 Ranni got her shadow before she became a god.

[@brentramsten249]

@@spacemegalodon5049 ranni is not a god? all of marikas children (the ones that are empyreans anyway) get shadows... which again is a threat of the greater will against marika as much as it is a boon from the greater will.

[@jackalkhan5676]

Marika was fearful of how based Messmer was

[@gedoplanet]

I like to think this is why Melina rebelled as the Gloam Eyed Queen. Payback for her brother

[@geordiejones5618]

It would explain her lack of memory, the First Burning of the Erdtree, the association of the Godskins with snakes and that cell where you find Melina's weapon.

[@simonshaw8727]

That's why Melina talks about freeing the one who walks with the flame

[@TheLyricalCleric]

I might add one more wrinkle to this tragedy-Marika had no choice. She was melded with criminals to start with, then omens, then heroes, then giants, and finally a giant snake. She was the most successful shaman of her village because of her ability to meld harmoniously, so the horn sent went mad with melding her with everything. They forced her into a jar with every awful thing they could conjure up. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the gate of divinity was actually made by the hornsent, one final melding that would bring the hornsent to divinity by using Marika as a skeleton key to unlock the gate of divinity. But instead, she murdered them all and called down the Elden Beast. She separated the Lands Between and made herself a god of only light, not light and shadow mixed. She tried to banish death and make her reign last forever, failed, and was betrayed in turn by the Elden beast. We find her crucified in the Erdtree because it was the last place she could go to be safe, like the shaman woman in the tree in shaman village. She hung herself on the tree to get rid of her shadow selves, all the other beings inside her. That’s why the boss spirits are called remembrances-the term “carvings” might be more accurate, like carvings in the bark of a tree that stay and grow deeper with each year. She had those souls carved into her flesh, and the tree was the only way to expunge them.

[@Aretruehazbin]

Only that i get that right marika decides who has grace and who don't right heard that are lot and you seem to know the lore well enough to answer the question

[@hhowdy]

Dude I love Elden Rings lore so much. Making a story like this where most answers lead to more questions and everything is a huge mystery could easily fall apart with a mediocre writer. But with the incredible character writing of GRRM and Miyazaki’s staple writing style of interpretation and filling in the empty gaps with imagination. Elden Rings lore is my favorite story Fromsoft has made.

[@SilverMooney]

I agree!

[@blender-c4r]

Overall pretty cool ideas but I feel like this popular sentiment of Marika abandoning Messmer is wrong or at least very unlikely when we look at some evidence and the timeline of events. There are very heavy implications that Messmer was going back and forth between the land of shadows and the lands between during the crusade- 1)Black knight Andreas spirit ash says 'Though he remained a devout follower of Messmer after his flight from the Erdtree, he would rebel after learning of his liege's serpentine nature. His righteous stand was rewarded with imprisonment in an underground tomb.' Lets focus on that first line, after his flight from the erdtree. Flight implying that Messmer was chased away. 2)This could not have been the beginning of the crusade as the crusade was commemorated by the serpent crest shield 'A finely-made "redshield" featuring an engraving of a winged serpent. Excels at guarding against fire. Said to have been made to commemorate the beginnings of the crusade started by Messmer, son of Marika.' implying support from the erdtree people. This pretty much confirms that Messmer did return to Leyndell during the crusade. 3)To further back this up, the stone tablets in Marikas bedchambers are the exact same ones in shadow keep. Messmer was sending information to his mom. Now what I think she was trying to do is that she was trying to do research in an attempt to cure the jar innards or it might even have something to do with the omen curse. Messmer has like the largest and strongest army of all of Marika's demigods (except maybe Godwyn but Messmer's armies received far more blessings than the any other army so probably not) and he was loyal to her so I see no reason why she would want to weaken the military of her army intentionally and abandon him. Messmer is also the demigod who has received the most blessings from her out of any other demigod even more so than Godwyn so she clearly favours him out of the other demigods despite his curses. If her plan was to abandon him from the start, then that would make no sense as he was returning to Leyndell. Not to mention the hints about her planning the shattering with Godfrey giving us a whole new perspective on her motives.

[@SilverMooney]

Appreciate you watching and sharing your in depth comment!

[@blender-c4r]

Now comes the question, why did Messmer flee the erdtree? Well lets look at the hints we get(Heavy speculation ahead). 1)Black knight Andreas learned of Messmer's serpentine nature. This serpentine nature has to be the base serpent as the winged serpents are depicted in the serpent crest shield and are out at all time around Messmer. This means that the base serpent was somehow able to overpower Marika's seal for a moment and thus revealed itself to Andreas 2)The fire knight armor says that 'Each and every knight hailed from a renowned family of the Erdtree's upper echelons, but were shunned and chased from their homes after pledging allegiance to Messmer as their master.' implying that Messmer was never very liked among the erdtree people. I don't think this hate is related to the crusade as the serpent shield implies which only leaves Messmer's curses. 3)Serpents were despised among the erdtree people even during Godfrey's era as implied by the duellist helm. The base serpent in called evil in all of its item description and in the Japanese Messmer's second phase title is not 'base serpent' but 'malevolent serpent' implying that the serpent is more evil that it is 'impure' as you suggested. Combining all points we get my answer: The base serpent, during one of Messmer's visits to Leyndell, revealed itself to the public causing them to turn on Messmer. This caused Messmer to flee. They probably never liked him much because of the winged serpents so it was easy to hate him especially considering that he had an evil deity in his eye. The fire knights were given the option to stay loyal to Messmer or return back home and the ones who stayed loyal were shunned. Now the people hate Messmer and even though Marika is a god she cant change their sentiments as she still has to play the role of ruler. The fear mentioned in Messmer's remembrance is not the fear of the base serpent being revealed imo but its that in spite of doing her best to seal the serpent it had revealed itself and now he is hated by the people and due to political pressure and fear for Messmer's safety she seals him in the shadow realm. I apologize if I came off as rude at any point. I just get a bit too carried away talking about the lore.

[@blender-c4r]

@@SilverMooney and I appreciate your reply!

[@cincameron]

I believe Messmer was a product of an affair between Marika and Radagon some time between the slaughter of the Fire Giants and before the 1st Liurnian War. I also don't believe Marika was ever fused with anything during her reign as God. From what it looks like, instead of becoming the Jar Saint the Tower Folk wanted, she instead slaughtered them and used their bodies to form a Divine Gate, allowing her to commune with the Elden Beast and gave it some offering... She didn't become one with the Elden Ring, but instead wore it as a crown and necklace. As for why Radagon and Marika's children are so messed up, I believe that has to do with both Marika committing a sin against the Hornsent by being unfaithful to her Lord, Godfrey, but also, there's reasonable evidence to assume Radagon may have been a product of the Warrior Jars some time after the Fire Giants were slaughtered, and various parts of Marika and the Hornsent's enemies at that time ended up conceiving him. It would make sense why Radagon and Marika's children are unhinged and cursed at birth if Radagon's recessive features are melding with her children's inate Shaman physiology. Just a theory of course. As for Messmer's banishment, I feel like the only blatant thing we can say is that his younger sister, Melina, attempted to burn the tree, and because of this, Messmer might have burned her away. Melina was locked away in the Tower leading to the Forbidden Lands for this trespass, and I would assume Messmer was sent to the Realm of Shadow the moment Marika decided to get revenge on the Hornsent as a front for simply getting rid of him. Marika likely saw his flame as a threat to her Erdtree, especially if it somehow "killed" Melina, since she seems to be a spirit by the time we meet her. And just for the record, the time-line for Marika/Messmer is the following (in my opinion): (Lots of past events before this, but we'll ignore them)... Marika ascends to godhood, acquiring the Elden Ring -> Marika creates the Erdtree -> Godwyn is likely conceived by this point -> Marika leads the Hornsent and Godfrey against the Fire Giants, promising a prosperous Age with her Erdtree -> Radagon is born from a Warrior Jar, is my head-canon. He later becomes the Champion of the Golden Order -> Marika has her affair with Radagon before the 1st Liurnian War, conceiving Messmer -> Marika returns to her home, planting the minor erdtree, and confessing her crimes to her Grandmother, but also promising to take revenge against the Hornsent (cuts her braid) -> Marika has another affair with Radagon after the failed 1st Liurnian War, conceiving Melina -> Radagon weds Rennala and begins learning Glintstone Sorceries... Carians become uneasy with the union between the Golden Order and Moon and begin to lose faith in Rennala -> Gransax attacks Leyndell (unclear on the time-frame of this, but I'd assume it would have happened by now), which urges Marika to conquer the rest of the Lands Between -> Marika and Godfrey conceive the Omen Twins... Marika was struck with the curse of the Omen due to being a "Strumpet", which further fuels her anger towards the Hornsent -> Godfrey is sent by Marika with his army to conquer the Lands Between -> By now, Radahn, Rykard and Ranni would have been born -> Godfrey ends his conquest and is sent by Marika along with his army to wage war in other lands in her name. She strips them of grace so they can not find their way back through a fog cast over the Lands Between... but promises to return Grace after their deaths to wage war and Brandish the Elden Ring. At some point during or before this, I believe Melina attempted to burn the Erdtree. Why? Unclear. Messmer probably stops her but accidentally "kills" her. We're unsure what Marika's mind-set is at this point since it's unclear what events transpired... such as if she began to lose faith in her Two Fingers and the Elden Beast and figuring out the Greater Will had not been guiding them in the first place.... Or if she merely wished to have Godfrey and his warriors return to see the Hornsent civilization laid out in complete ruin as her final act of revenge for her people... but either way: Marika prepares Messmer and his forces to purge the Hornsent, and Rellana + many Carian forces abandon Rennala to join him -> Marika cuts off the Scadutree and creates the Realm of Shadow -> Radagon leaves Rennala by now to join Marika, becoming Second Elden Lord. This is entirely speculatory, and some events may be slightly out of place, but this is what I currently believe.

[@papanurgle8393]

I recommend checking out Last Protagonist's channel and his "The Jarsent" episode. It's a bit rushes for something so dense, but really offers some insights into Hornsent Culture and WTF the jars were for. The short of it is that Horsent culture was trying to create a conjoined being that was spiritually pure enough to house the Elden Beast, and by extension the ring. Marika fit the bill (probably after getting Jarred; the only successful case of a living saint being created from the Gaols) and it's why the Elden Beast pops out of Radagon when we kill him. Marika wouldn't have been a God while in the actual jar. Rather, she'd start her journey of divestment as a Jar but get progressively closer to the being we're familiar with as Marika. In this instance, that's the most fucked up part of the ritual by far; they rot-whipped dozens of people into a flesh-dumpling only to tell the lead jelly-bean to seperate from the pile.

[@cincameron]

@@papanurgle8393 the Elden Beast popped out of Radagon because the Elden Ring was placed inside of Radagon himself after trying to repair the Elden Ring. Marika WORE the Elden Ring as it is depicted as a crown and necklace in imagery--obviously before she played tug of war with Radagon Marika is never once confirmed to have been put into a jar. She simply is confirmed to have become God after ascending via the Divine Gate.... which was made with a bunch of Hornsent. Radagon's goal was to become "complete". He learned astrology and history during his time with the Carians. He learned glintstone sorceries, he at some point became a great smith since he was able to change the Full Moon Greatsword to the Golden Order Greatsword. He learned incantations from Marika and later created Fundamentalism and collaborated with Miquella in making the golden rings. He became one with Marika presumably at her lowest point in an attempt to become God. The Warrior Jars are fundamentally different from the Jar Saints. They are filled with corpses of warriors. It can be safe to assume the corpses of Erdtree warriors were mixed even with fallen enemies such as Fire Giants and the like. Perhaps even other Numen. If Radagon was a jar warrior and figured out what Marika was, it would be simple for him to figure out he could be capable of fusing with her.

[@adhityoprathamaadji2393]

if we talk about snake , i just curious if he related to God-Devouring Serpent aka eiglay a outer god (sometihng that rykard worship on volcano manor)

[@CloudyWolf713]

Cool thumbnail art again! ^_^

[@SilverMooney]

Thanks again!

[@NorthstriderGaming]

Marika was haunted by her sins at every given opportunity and Messmer's abandonement was her first attempt of covering it up. Messmer was born afflicted with snakes to symbolize Marika's betrayal of the Hornsent, Mohg and Morgott were born with horned features, reminding her of the Hornsent, which is why these folks are called Omen and are shunned, Miquella is a hard-copy of Marika, seducing and betraying everyone arround him. Rykard found pleasure in torturing people just like the Hornsent did with the jars, Radahn found joy in the arts of war, Ranni possesed her cunning plotting skills, Malenia's rot symbolizes the instability of Marika's world, That's probably why she tried super hard to keep everyone's attention on Godwyn for he appears to be the only unafflicted child. If folks were to figure out more about any of the other demigods, they would have seen that Marika's rule is a nightmare covered up with gold.That's probably also why Godwyn's death started the avalanche that would become the Shattering War. Marika's cover was about to blow up. So she had to shatter the ring to end this clownshow.

[@m-baka]

Yeah, doesn't the gate of divinity look closest to rykard's sword of anything else in the game, plus the whole eden serpent eve betrayal allusion

[@deathandrebirth-y8x]

mohg and morgott arent cursed. they are blessed.

[@joesaiditstrue]

The Hornsent even called the Omen a curse

[@Владислав-ы9м5у]

No. Omens are not, in fact, blessed. Their state is very depraved and twisted compared to the hornsent and how they see proper divinity. It's not only that the hornsent have proper horns, on their heads, while those poor deformed kids are literally sprinkled with them, it's also that omens are suffering from nightmares. They are tormented by hornsent, doomed to channel not divinity, but raging spirits, cut from the erdtree's cycle of rebirth.

[@mmyr8ado.360]

I thought you're going to say based

[@deathandrebirth-y8x]

@@mmyr8ado.360 only mohg is based. morgott is a sad case of loving someone that hates you.

[@mmyr8ado.360]

@deathandrebirth-y8x The Erdtree does not hate, only the Golden Order does. It is covered in golden light, and like in the Shaman Village, it is the kindness of Gold without order. And Morgott loved the Erdtree nonetheless.

[@BoRice82]

Grandam said she cursed Marika. So that explains all her kids right? Nothing was wrong with radagons kids. They chose . Right?

[@smashtankful]

Has anyone thought that Marika betrayed her own people after having removed the rune of death, knowing they would suffer, yet survive? She needed to curry favor with the hornsent, and then in turn betrayed them. She returned to her village and planted the tree.

[@SilverMooney]

That is interesting to think about!

[@Tokyoprism]

Ngl if my son had an eternal flame & an abyssal serpent in him I’d probably go to the store for some milk

[@harshilpatel5950]

Wish arena break and have to fight full abyssal serpant with dragon wings and fly and do messemer fire breath attack😞

[@deathandrebirth-y8x]

i wonder what melina did then. considering someone burned her. and her mother is marika.

[@-Sparagmos-]

Cursed with red hair doesn’t seem so bad compared to the others lol.

[@SilverMooney]

lol right

[@blender-c4r]

I heavily disagree with your interpretation on the gates of divinity. Like Marika was born a simple shaman girl and literally all her spells are heal spells how could she have killed let alone arranged those corpses? The hornsent culture is literally all about sacrifice and blending life together. The stuff they did to the shamans and even their own tell that to us. The entirety of Enir Ilim is covered by fused bodies and the hornsent seem to be pretty chill about it. All environmental clues only point towards the hornsent being responsible. Also gold is very common in the lands between so I dont think her bracelets imply anything. You could argue that during the hornsent age gold was rare, if so then we I can argue that she got the bracelets from her shaman people as she likely was a high ranking member in her village. This is further evidenced by the fact that she kept wearing those bracelets even as a god, she would never hold onto hornsent property after what they did so her continuing to wear them implies that they were from her people and not the hornsent. The seduction and betrayal could be Marika doing it to the hornsent but we only get clues on the betrayal being the crusade and as for the seduction we only get the shit talking of a racist hornsent grandam calling Marika a strumpet which could just be a way to belittle her or even worse could imply SA(wont surprise me considering their brutal culture). Or we can look at the clues we get from the dlc. 1)We are told by Ymir that Marika was guided by the 2 fingers. 2)The 2 fingers say what Metyr interprets from the greater will but as we all found out, she has lost contact. 3)Marika was a young woman/child who had just suffered genocide. She would definately accept the promise of a world without death where she would never loose the ones she loves to death ever again. 4)Godhood is described as a prison by Trina and in the base game Ranni one of Ranni's main motivations of to not be controlled by the fingers. All this points to Metyr/two fingers seducing Marika with the power of creating a world where she wouldn't loose anyone to death but they betrayed her by putting her in the eternal cage of godhood. Again we get pretty much nothing on who Marika could have seduced. She simply could have used her mimic veil to sneak upto the gates of divinity and ascend from the hornsent's efforts without needing to do some elaborate scheme of seducing. The narrative irony here, if you ask me, is that Marika started out as someone who wanted to rid the world of the evils that ruined her life but ended up being the cause of it later.

[@TheShadowOfHumanity]

She saw that he was built like Adam Driver with a weirdly wide torso and was like "Im getting this nightmare fuel as far away from my kingdom as possible"