The REAL Reason Your Documentary Isn’t Working

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Wondering why your documentary film or short isn’t working yet? Odds are, you’re making the same mistake as most other filmmakers.
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[@marcowenzel3399]

That´s why i follow you, not "I´m here for the big talk and the fancy shots" - Peter McKinnon. 👏

[@NonalignedVideos]

Peter has learned some lessons, though he still uses the word "epic" a little too often about shooting footage. If he didn't have some sort of story in most of his vlogs then many less people would watch them. McKinnon is very, very charming and his innate skills as a showman (he's a former MAGICIAN!) creates interest. His entire channel is a story about his development as a photographer. FWIW: I prefer Luc's channel to McKinnon's too.

[@ckallas]

Through you, Mark Bone, And Standard Story Company, I've learned a lot about Documentary but moreso on how to find and create stories over finding a topic. Whenever I go out to film, I always am asking where the story is versus getting a good shot for no reason.

[@LucForsyth]

Glad to hear that!

[@ckallas]

@@LucForsyth Thanks Luc! Appreciate all you do!

[@seancloutier2577]

I am trying to do my first documentary....two things I have learned 1) if you are not paying attention to what is in front of the camera your footage will be garbage 2) you need some kind of script or guide otherwise your footage will be meaningless... also always be ready with the camera....I am filming protests and there are many times over a 5 hour shoot I am watching and not filming... also I never realised how exhausting filming is...I am in great shape...I am big 210 lbs and run a 6 minute mile...however after two days of filming 5 hours each day I am wiped... wish me luck

[@mauriciolee7349]

Thank Sean for the tip regarding the script.

[@who2999]

Good perspective on picking which docs to pursue. One of the big challenges of producing any kind of films is knowing what ideas not to pursue as well as which ones can be developed. Working at a news station I have to say that 99% percent of what comes out of our station every day that we think of as stories are just topic by this standard and most are relevant for about twenty four hours and then gone forever. Of that rare 1% that would fit this definition of stories I'd say 99% get remembered or win awards.

[@NonalignedVideos]

The only problem with going into a doc with a hard "story" in mind is you will do everything you can to tell THAT story and not "document" what is actually happening. Oscar-winning documentaries have been made by directors who followed a compelling situation and found the story as they shot and sometimes AFTER they shot in the edit. I think that anyone who starts shooting knowing that they are LOOKING FOR A STORY is ahead of the game compared to people who, for instance, think that breeding dachshunds is super interesting so they wanna make a film about breeding dachshunds. I'm guessing there are plenty of people who shoot hundreds of hours of stuff only to find there's no compelling story there, so there's a risk shooting without a story in mind. Then again, the dachshund doc might just be a story of how different people who breed sausage dogs are compared to the audience's expectations? Maybe the solution is to shoot with a story in mind and an understanding that this story might change? Thoughts?

[@avrahamvofsi4459]

I agree. This is the hardest thing to learn about doco making. The back and forth between working out a story to film and then finding a story during production. That would be a great video to see, as I don’t really have good strategies either

[@hwcentertainment]

This is THE COMMENT!!!

[@mauriciolee7349]

Thank Luc for such a PRACTICAL and INSIGHTFUL video. There are 2 things that benefit me the most. The first one is your definition of a story. It's different than a topic. A story is a journey with characters, obstacles, and endings. And through stories that people are connected to a film on an emotional level. Wow, it's so IMPACTFUL and yet this is the FIRST TIME I've heard about it. The second one is the questions I need to ask to figure out if my story is not a topic.

[@dr.gregoryf.maassen2637]

Everyone should be seeing this clip before producing a documentary. There is of course more to characters, challenges and resolutions. Think in terms of distribution channels and audiences, cinematography and sound design, marketing, life rights, music rights, budgets, trends, and .... The list goes on. But, a compelling story sells and should be the starting point of a documentary's production regardless of LUTs, raw, and other marketing gimmicks. That is why this KZbin channel is useful. Be realistic and honest. If you have no story, you have no documentary.

[@j.jones1181]

Thanks for this sensible input. I'm about to head out to cover an event with photos and video clips, and your video has got me thinking about different angles to approach the whole thing, to give it story shape. Great timing, thanks.

[@knuterikhaugen-jf2lo]

Thanks for a great video Luc! I really enjoy following your stuff🙂

[@LucForsyth]

Glad to hear it!

[@menoadil8404]

love your vids

[@KingdomHarvestCinema]

Very important video. Thanks for this info

[@estebanagudelo5960]

Thank You!!!

[@kevgoes]

Great advice. I'm not a doc film maker but this still applies to KZbin vids as well. My vids which have a clear goal or story always do better. Thanks for another great vid.

[@glenblaven]

Brilliant thanks.

[@JeremyBotz]

Thank you Luc. I appreciate this video!

[@LucForsyth]

Glad it was helpful!

[@friendsofsaintanthony]

Great video! Thank you!

[@LucForsyth]

You are welcome!

[@tedcoats4148]

Really great analysis Luc! One obstacle (literally) in communicating this sage advice is your nice looking table. Either get a taller chair or lose it. In my opinion, it really doesn’t seem necessary.

[@Chelanwechel]

When I had no gear I had lots of stories. Now I have all the gear and I've lost my ability to come up with stories. I got so focused on how to get different shots I didn't develop that part. It's hard to get back.

[@rolandoproductions2906]

Beautiful.

[@Maros_Mari]

Luc, glad you brought up this hugely important topic!!! couldn't agree more - Story is what makes or brakes your film. I would recommend everyone starting out - to read Robert McKee's STORY, Syd Field's SCREENPLAY, Blake Snyder's SAVE THE CAT. It will help understanding how films should be made...

[@TheGreatAmphibian]

Those are exactly the three heavily marketed books that professionals generally despise…

[@Sgyozo]

@@TheGreatAmphibian But luckily you posted a few examples that professionals recommend, so we can learn. Oh, wait.

[@TheGreatAmphibian]

@@Sgyozo I think most professionals would say that you learn by studying finished examples rather than how-to books… The more recipe driven a book is, the more awful it is.

[@TheGreatAmphibian]

@@Sgyozo …All three of these books try to nail story down a very constricted recipe, Cat most of all, with specific milestones specified page by page. That’s bad enough for fiction, but if you are trying to fit a REAL story to that technique you will warp it so badly it becomes a lie. In the end you just have to understand what a story is. There are stakes, a battle, and a person fighting that battle, a person who has motivation, strengths, and weaknesses. The battle has turning points and reasons for these turning points.

[@b0nz0beavis]

Thanks for another excellent clip, the insight and inspiration is very useful and sticks with me sometime Shen I’m lacking motivation. Glad you brought up King of Kong, has panned out that Billy Mitchell faked his world record run by using game emulation. Hoping we get a sequel covering that side of things, I’m sure it’s an even better story than the og.

[@Brian-Hansen]

Thanks, Luc. This topic definitely hits on why it’s really hard to find content for good documentaries because it is quite difficult to find good stories where the people are willing to open up their life in front of the camera. When it happens it’s magic. It’s not the norm. It’s the exception. There are lots of documentaries that are topical and they work, but it’s probably because they are packed with a bunch of little stories. The docs that are the most boring and unwatchable are the ones that are just about a topic and nothing else.

[@somewheredifferent]

Access in Reportage is key. That's the skill, to get them to trust you, so they are OK to open up and tell thier story.

[@Brian-Hansen]

@@somewheredifferent Yep. For 20 years my mantra is that documentaries are about access and opportunity. That is the currency you must get people to give you. Then, as you state, the subject can trust and open up.

[@johnclay7644]

informative video non linearity can help with structure. Thanks Luc.

[@LucForsyth]

Thanks John!

[@ShaneVaughan]

100 percent agree!

[@paoloeustaquio2248]

Thank you for breaking it down so beautifully Luc! It was not clear to me before why I really loved "Jiro Dreams of Sushi." Simply put, it had a strong story from the perspective of a food critique, apprentice, son, and the protagonist himself which made it mystifying and demystifying the protagonist's legendary body of work. This video really hit the spot for me, thanks Luc! ✊😅 Watching out for the next ones!

[@LucForsyth]

Thank you so much!

[@Error404PageNotFoundx]

Wow. This channel is awesome. Your video got me thinking. Do the elements of making a good documentary also work on videos that are more news oriented - like China Uncensored reporting the ai market in China?

[@user-df1ws9ku9x]

Woow really thank you , can you make a series on this please? Stories vs Topic

[@jasonayers7458]

Concerning your one on one sessions, if I have two films I'd like to discuss with you that are 15-20 minutes each, does that watch time count towards the hour or are you able to watch them before the call and be able to still have a full hour?

[@matadormartin]

Great video, totally agree. Would be interesting to hear your take one day on being hired as a shooter, director or both for a film that does not really have a story or you aren’t sure is going to work. This has happened to me a few times now. An independent producer or producer/director ‘thinks’ they have a story but as you say it is just a topic, or maybe one or more interesting characters, and so they kind of rush into getting some sort of private funding (or their own money) and want to start shooting. Since I’m freelance and need to earn a living, I have largely ended up taking these jobs and trying to help. It is a bit similar to the Peter McKinnon situation you bring up though, I’ve been paid to shoot stuff like that before and end up just thinking ‘where is this going?’ and though I might search and search for where it is going, there just isn’t much there. The whole experience can be very dispiriting and leave you feeling empty, despite being paid.

[@DanielJohnFPV]

Are you applying these to YT videos as well? I've been trying to make my videos more compelling lately, but I struggle to come up with a story for something like a product review.

[@zachguillian]

Luc, this is one of the biggest questions I’ve had when researching and learning about documentaries: does this still work on a small scale? Does a 5-10 minute doc still have to follow this “character who wants something” format, or can you make it more about bringing the audience into the world of the character?

[@Maros_Mari]

I believe the film story structure should be applied to even 15 sec commercials - 1 minute shorts and most definitely 5-10minutes films. It is alfa and omega - if character does not want anything - you dont have a character... check out Save the Cat - it was my first book on storytelling - a huge help...

[@chrisw443]

An event film is a different genre of film making and alot of people go into filming an event and thinking its a documentary. When its really just a concert film. So knowing weather or not your project is a full doc or not also helps before you pitch it to anyone. That way you pitch it to the right person.

[@jahosaphat]

The best advice.

[@LucForsyth]

Thanks!

[@sp3cialed1]

This explains how I fucked up. Damn.

[@bobtronic73]

I just bought "Oranges", thx :)

[@BieuvilleJeanBaptiste]

Good ideas tend to make bad documentaries. Simple ideas with a great angle and treatment have a better chance of leading to a good story, in my opinion ;).

[@GeologyUpSkill]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Works". If you mean that it gets sold to a network or wins cinema awards, the story is everything. I make short educational videos for a KZbin audience and it is clear that the ones that "work" best are those that give people some kind of skill that they can use in everyday work. They really dont care how it affects me.

[@southcoastpix9678]

Opening comment is about documentaries. Your comment is a bit like a blue angle pilot talking about the best type of aircraft for air shows and then saying but the wright brothers airframe also gets me off the ground….

[@GeologyUpSkill]

@@southcoastpix9678 I think your analogy is quite apt. The audiences are totally different. The people who went to see the Wright brothers attempts didn't care about the skill of the pilot. They just wanted to know if the machine would get off the ground. Luc did say in his video that there are plenty of exceptions. I simply outlined one from my experience.

[@darkphotographer]

the ods of finding some one that will to a exraorinary thing , and be next to him , like solo , is qite rare to find , and wery difficult to do , iven go with a band for a toor mayby the most tenion you will get is the bus getting a flat tire , i have some friends that when for a tour in filipines , that coud have be a fun doc , but at the moment i dent have the money to go ,

[@Photo1productions]

The first question I ask a producer is “what’s the story ?” . If they don’t know I get a bit cranky! Good advice Luc , cheers!

[@LucForsyth]

Thanks a lot!

[@Angels-3xist]

I think this is all sound advice. Don’t create a story though, look for the ones that are already there. Even in the example of Planet Earth they sometimes create a story, but often those stories are still relevant and true scenarios for the species. I think if you do have to pull a story up that doesn’t present itself easily it matters if it’s still cutting to a reality and the honest truth in any situation can be profound if you’re able to see it. So people who think they’re missing a story? Maybe they just need to meditate on the story they’re not seeing yet.

[@phototommyfive]

People are not pitching stories because… most people don’t read anymore. They don’t have the concept of story structure embedded into the way they view films or the world. The default becomes, “wouldn’t it be cool if…”

[@snakhai88]

hello sir i like to pitch you my documentary about a goat. pls sir can you help me wire transfer funds to make the documentary.

[@tomdchi12]

This is a “101” issue, but obviously needs to be clearly pointed out. Sure, some films follow one person (or a few) who are trying to get something. But there are lots of “topics” that greatly impact many people’s lives. The useful next video is how do you go from a meaningful topic to identifying potential subjects whose stories can be told in the doc? For the lion/antelope struggle for like you go to the watering hole in the dry season and if you’re luck the pride is starving on the son is usurping. But clearly lots of docs start with the issue, and then find the subjects whose experiences both illustrate the topic/issue but are the emotional hook for the audience.

[@WhySteve]

Reminds me of a guy who said I can keep 80% of the KZbin revenue from a channel he is yet to create if I film him with all my gear for a month long for free about him doing a "water fast". He might enjoy starving, BUT I DONT😂 Talking about the steaks, it seems like the thing thing that divides a great story from a concept is whether somebody lives or dies 😅

[@ijovy3]

l wonder if at this point the PM doc should be about how he is trying to make that doc

[@SirSeabass]

Good good I love King of Kong a fist full of quarters. It's why I wanted to make documentaries.

[@LucForsyth]

Great film!

[@tapsifules4517]

I find it funny when he and the likes say that it's not about the gear while they are toting around equipment worth tens of thousands of dollars wherever they go.

[@KenFlanagan]

I think that this is unfortunately a very conventional way of looking at docs and it is perhaps missing the essential point that we interpret the world through narrative and that narrative shape is by definition something that involves change over time. A time lapse of a flower growing and dying is a narrative or story. Koyaanisqatsi is possibly the greatest documentary ever made but documents a point in time and philosophical view. Its given a narrative shape because it makes a point in the shape of crescendo and poignant and poetic imagery. It is a recognisable narrative shape without resorting to a cliched protagonist. Unfortunately i couldnt disagree more with this very conventional approach to docs that is described here and imo this approach is a lowest common denominator approach which has been the refuge of commissioners who are not naturally or inherrantly interested in a particular topic or aspect of life but who insist on dumbing down the subject by using a human story as a way in for an audience, hanging the issue to be investigated on a heros journey cliche. So many interesting films just never get made because people are too lazy or are just fed this frame to hang a film on. This approach often flattens the nuance and detail of the topic simply because we as an audience get distracted by the human story and emotion and this then often misses the intellectual or philosophical interest. The same is true of film scripts that slavishly adopt this approach. Narrative as a temporal cause and effect with some level of becoming and change over time is usually more than enough but the concept of observational documentary in its purest form doesnt need this brute story obsession structure. It is so often just a lazy crutch. Narrative is inherent is the way we see almost everything in the world and imo can be far more abstract and interesting.

[@alexgeifman]

It was not a sublime academic talk about the untapped possibilities of documentary filmmaking, but basic advices for newbies. Some proportions please.

[@KenFlanagan]

@@alexgeifman Given the portentous title I don't think that my response was in any way disproportionate. Calm down (patronising tone). In terms of newbie advice "story" couldn't be more of a non-statement or worse a misunderstood and overused cliche. If newbies want a career in content creation then they should perhaps be embracing social media short-form content and AI. In terms of long-form docs which in my experience usually have a budget of between $200-300K I don't see that my comments are unreasonable and whether you are a newbie or pitching a Netflix series, the advice and comments still stand. Narrative not story!

[@MattAzzarello]

Yoo I hate Imagine Dragons😆