THE REASON PLAYERS QUIT. Animation ABUSE in Melee Games.

[@doughboi007]

Chiv 2 is why i got back into the genre. Chiv 2 makes is VERY hard to manipulate animations to the point of unfairness. Hardcore competitive playes might not like it, but it's made the game accessible for new players.

[@vildae]

definitely. combat in Chiv 2 was designed for 1) console, 2) casual players. and that's how it ended up. lot of 'not nice' stuff got removed/minimized. something is still there, but it's rare to see on Team Objective.

[@Vidyadude]

lol, have you tried dueling in Chiv 2? The animation abuse is much worse than in Mordhau.

[@aeoteroa818]

@@vildae i still have alot of fun in ffa

[@BLaCkKsHeEp]

those ani abusers can be so annoying tho even in Chiv 2. im no means a bad player but im no pro but still, sometimes it messes you up

[@helium-379]

@@BLaCkKsHeEp If you have an ok team then all you need to know is that your mere existence on the battlefield is pressure on the enemy. Just show up, plug in gaps, flank the enemy, exploit weaknesses, and just kinda be there. You dont have to be active in a fight all the time. One time there were 3 of us surrounding one guy and I kept going behind him. I didn't go near is sword range like he expected me to. I was far away, that threw him off, and we punished him. Anyways we jumped his ass real hard and he was a fairly experienced player too. In team objectives you never fight fair if you can. Always outnumber them if you can and dont do what they expect.

[@tkzubaran]

I think these animation manipulations are interesting in Chiv 2 and stupid broken in Mordhau.

[@vildae]

they serve the same purpose though. i don't see your point. or you're trying to say they are easy to read in Chiv?

[@gox717]

i think this is a case of being good in one game while being bad in another, for me animations in chiv 2 look completely janky and unreadable but thats because ive never played it while all the things shown in this video concerning mordhau are not weird looking or unreadable at all to me personally.

[@someolfellow1094]

​@vildae I believe the main difference is the defense system, you can hold a block in Chiv 2 but you can only parry in Mord which is very specific (only a few MS) this is likely why dragging isn't so bad in Chiv 2, as you can hold your guard until the opponent hits you instead of trying to guess "how far will they turn to hit me" like in Mordhau The fact you can hold your guard and still block no matter the drag abuse (someone hitting you around your guard is you looking at them and not the tip of their weapon) means that lower skill players can still fight on relatively even footing with someone who is really good at the game, and overall makes the fighting system more fair imo. Dragging skills is more important in 1vX fights than they are in 1v1s, as hitting opponents trying to attack me from the sides is the main way I have won 1vX fights (and using their overconfidence to bait more)

[@dziarskihenk8798]

​@@vildaeanimations in mordhau are somehow way jankier which makes it difficult to read and frustrating

[@realhuman3203]

The real explanation is chivalry was made by a team of well payed and experienced professionals while mordgay was made by an autistic moron who sucks at his own game

[@wesley021494]

In chiv 2 it's not that bad because everything is still streamlined with slash, overhead, and stab so as long as you recognize those you can depend yourself but mordhau is absolutely abysmal with animation abuse lol

[@favkisnexerade]

i got banned on morhdau steam and reddit because I wrote in the first month of this game that developers lied about fixing animation abuse and this game would turn into chivalry again. Funny

[@morefeedmoresneed8906]

umm or maybe its cause you can just hold parry? lmao

[@wesley021494]

@@morefeedmoresneed8906 have fun getting kicked and your stamina broken doing that buddy lol. Chambering and spacing/whiff punishing is the way to go especially against good people. Against scrubs in 64 mixed who only spam left click and hold parry as well that'll probably work just fine

[@diagonal3715]

idc why ppl bitching about these things, like its not UNFAIR cuz EVERYBODY can use it, u dont need buy dlc, cheats or some shit, just git gud lol. Its imposible to make realistic melee game, and these "abuses" make game more harder and interesting, lik who tf would pay atention to game where u can only block and hit? Also NOBODY cares about chiv2, some casuals play that a bit and still leave cuz that shit is boring after 20h

[@mumblesmcgrumbles386]

I got locked into a Parry battle with a guy in 1 on 1 duels. It was like fighting a mirror lol. We even did our faints at the exact same lol

[@crimsonstardrago9707]

I came to chiv because I hated Mordhau's animation abuse. Even now though, people continue to try and be "ballerinas" and spin around and do weird shit. Drags and Feinting are one thing, but trying to manipulate the game to being unreadable with janky animations is unskilled to me.

[@JackeyBoyyy]

if it didn't work, they wouldn't do it. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[@crimsonstardrago9707]

@@JackeyBoyyy That's why I'm not playing Mordhau now isn't it?

[@aspiringadonis1253]

​@@crimsonstardrago9707I spin because spinning is fun, I'm not great by any means but I don't think spinning very strong unless you know very well how to use it, I just do it to mess around

[@AWACS_Snowblind]

I think it's fair to say that while it's an exploit in Mordhau, animation manipulation in Chivalry 2 is an intended mechanic. It's practically taught to you in the tutorial with a combination of feinting and camera movement. That's not to say it's "easier to read" in Chivalry 2 than it is in Mordhau (I haven't played Mordhau in fairness, so I can't back up that opinion), but it definitely feels more fair to me than those twisty-wristies.

[@vildae]

I wouldn't say that if it's in tutorial it's intended. I do not remember so much advanced stuff. They only have drags / accels there. (Did they update the tutorial?)

[@calebcampbell9280]

Animation manipulation is an intended mechanic in all of these games. The Mordhau tutorial teaches you the basics of drags and access, and really animation manipulation is the primary mechanic of the game beyond basic timing and spacing.

[@opbanana6941]

It’s not an exploit

[@JackeyBoyyy]

@@vildae not the animation abuse, but they show the drags and accels in the tutorial. If something is in the tutorial, it was obviously atleast considered by the developers and probably tweaked/balanced to some extent;However mordhau doesn't even mention drags or accels. Doesn't even teach you how to chamber

[@vildae]

@@JackeyBoyyy it does. drags are just mentioned in the tut, which sucks, but I believe you practice chambers

[@nietsmmar1090]

At 8:20 you are up against notorious animation abuser Ye Xin Ping using his signature build. He has personally made over 46 players quit, including many higher rated ones like Stouty and Bruno. Its good you're finally exposing him for what he is. Very impressive you even managed to survive over 10 seconds against this animation abuser

[@realmook]

niets my love

[@nietsmmar1090]

@@realmook mook my beloved.

[@eruption_seventytwo]

I think held block makes this much less of an issue for new players in Chiv 2. There are also opportunities to counter-feint out of a mistake (especially in 2h match-ups). Messer dittos are often the longest matches in tournaments just because people are so used to the animations and the counter/counterfeint window is so forgiving. This tournament match is from last year but was probably one of our longest ft5s : kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXOvq6F6q7CroKc.

[@vildae]

yes, definitely. Chivalry is suited for more casual gameplay, and they try their best to minimize the bullshit (that I love to do). but, even though there's held block, the amount of players who are mad about this is quite high (for understandable reasons).

[@Clone003]

This is one of the couple things I liked about for honor, it has its issues but nothing absolutely game breaking like drags, accels, and animation exploits. Sure you have less control over everything but it evens the playing field in some aspects.

[@vildae]

as someone else described here, there 'absolutely game breaking issues' allow the game to be more complex, and have higher skill ceiling. it allows you to get better. but i know what you mean. it's a tough topic for discussion, because some believe it's unfair, and some think what i said in my first sentence.

[@vBlue-]

Footwork is designed to negate broken animations in top tier play in NA nobody is complaining about animations because it legit doesn’t matter if you early parry and run in and out of the drag

[@vildae]

@@vBlue- while that might be true, this video is just explaining that this stuff exists and how it works. there's no denying that it has counterplay.

[@rdzdoodles8592]

@@vildae As with all things, those who can't learn it won't like it. Those who know how to do it, will like it. Simple as :D

[@andreniki8864]

Sure, for honor is not broken, let me laugh in my corner for a while haha

[@semicollin4517]

I just started Mordhau a few weeks ago and really like it. But there is no denying there are guys who have mastered unreadable movements that make it really difficult to read. Which is kind of cool but also frustrating

[@vildae]

yes, but if you're casual player on Frontline, i believe it's rare. especially now, with the flood of free players.

[@tohhi1565]

@@vildae then a lvl 200 shows up in one team. do a 50/5 kd or 75/10 kd by just having better parry habits.

[@shadowstorm657]

Use a recurve and get the dodge ability. It screws them up really badly once you get the timing down. You WILL die alot until you get the timing down, but animation jank does not matter if you are not close enough to be hit.

[@tohhi1565]

@@shadowstorm657 Dont do that. this type of build deserve a 1411 in their face all day long + dodge skill is for gays

[@andreniki8864]

@@shadowstorm657 For experienced people, a single morph counters the dodge ability, So basically good players will pressure you until you run out of stam and then what? I dont think and i will never think that dodge is a good perk, In the state it is right now its the most useless skill

[@guycxz]

Being a Mordhau player something that I'm always amazed by when dueling high level players is their reading. I could hold against someone good at animation abuse for a short while, managing to read a fair amount of their moves, but they would be an absolute fortress and wouldn't get fazed by anything I do.

[@elijahred3918]

In chivalry 2 it's not really a big problem, because it doesn't really affect the flow or timing, it just looks flashy and can really confuse your opponent, but if you know what your doing i wont affect you at all. Mordhau however, the animation abuse completely breaks the game, and its why it fell off for sometime, because it was completely unforgiving for new players.

[@g59zak98]

I quit Mordhau since most people just knew the game better then me and learning everything from faints and different cancels wasn't a problem but, animations and control of the actual character takes an incredible amount of time and focus. I just want to chill and chop heads off.

[@envyme894]

I also will choose real life instead of pointless mastering skills in a video game lmao

[@miitch99]

If it wasn't for the jank, it would be exclusively "who runs out of stamina first," and then the only weapons being used would be those with good stam values.

[@AlecFortescue]

really, chivalry 2 is really best so far when it comes to making it harder to utilise dark arts. thanks for the video, I just hopped into chivalry for a while.after new patch

[@vildae]

yes, while some stuff is possible (and always will be...), they've minimized a lot of shit.

[@MrCaotico666]

Once, in Chiv 01, I was advancing towards a guy. We were three, and we all got paralysed moments before the clashing, because of the guy's instance. He REALLY looked experienced, and with all his ballerina moves, got the three of us quite easily. It was both frustrating and beautiful to watch, as someone watchs his own death with admiration

[@theredcinder7437]

One of the reasons i like Chiv 2 more now, the animation manipulation in mordhau just makes playing the game frustrating and immersion breaking. It still happens in Chiv but far less and most of the time i can react to it.

[@aeoteroa818]

a few patches ago in chiv you could spin 180, start a stab, feint it to another stab after 1 whole rotation, keep going another 180, have you back to your opponent and somehow stab through your back. i could repeat this consistently. i didnt have the skill to apply it to any fights though.

[@vildae]

ikr. i'm having hard time saying which game is worse in terms of animation abuse.

[@aeoteroa818]

@@vildae it's absolutely mordhau

[@BB-wz6bx]

lol I remember when people used to do them pirouettes in M&B Warband duel servers - usually with a pokey stick that was meant to be used on horseback and yet one could abuse its ridicilous range and full piercing damage without getting it stuck on the environment via fancy moves. Once I experienced this phenomenon my solution was to take a few steps back and throw an axe between their eyes which worked wonders.

[@beatdeath9962]

Warning Rant, but it's more to add to the discussion and to give points in response to the final question. I like that "Wristie Twisties" and "JPEGs" are just realistic janky animations, you see those in actual combat crossing the wrist or letting out a sudden attack from a paused position, both are real and for Medieval Melee games I think thats fair to be in the game these games are as close as we can get so far to realistic medieval combat in a video game format (excluding the Chivalry wristie twistie and the poleaxe overhead these are just obviously wrong looking cause game jank). I think Medieval Melee as the genre of games all try to strive towards a similar purpose of a fun video game mimicking real historical combat, I mean that feels more like an obvious fact than an opinion, obviously with exceptions leaning more towards funny game. Knowing the main goal of the genre the animation exploits like having literal weapons phasing into the ground or attacking long after the weapon has passed through you, these are exploititive and not intended they are unfair and its often why these games die out cause people like to have fun and not stare at pure jank constantly, but ones where its a hidden attack through the form of it looking like an overhead when its actually a slash is fine because its something the body can actually do, we aren't meant to playing contortionist hell 90% of players like to wear heavy armor cause it looks cool which definitely means no contortionist shenanigans. My point is more so, the "git gud" argument is horrible when its relying on exploits that aren't even physically possible our brains are made to comprehend reality and they are breaking reality, while git gud I can get behind if it was just about crossing the wrist or hiding and attack with an overhead or attacks from below cause those are just reality and feels more fair just for the fact its actually possible and closer to what the genre actually aims for which I shorten as fun realism. Both games suck, one is aimed more at people who hold onto animation abuse at a high competitive level, and the other aims at making the new experience nicer and easier to get into instead of getting rekt constantly. Both games have horrid animation abuse but one tried to actually tone it down instead, I mean the Chivalry 2 poleaxe literally has the original Chivalry animation for the special its incredibly bad animation wise very janky, Mordhau I need not speak on the quality of animations as some look spectacular while others are just not pleasant. I love both games all the same I will always love the genre, I just hope that everyone can agree one day that the actual contortionist and phasing in and out of anything isn't good design and no one should git gud cause of them, they are not good for the life of games they killed Chivalry and pushed all the newer playerbase of Mordhau away, Chivalry 2 attempted to fix it to a much greater degree but I see this kind of abuse pushing people away from the game still and the fixing of it pushed some people away too. I know Chivalry kind of gave life to this genre and they were immediately staples of the competitive scene, as a lot of competitive players like to do whatever is necessary to win, a compromise would be nice keeping the exploits that look plausible to reality while getting rid of or giving custom animations and code to the ones that just break reality in their entirety. This is not mentioning the horrid abominations that is "false swings" (cause I forgot their actual name) from original Chivalry and I think were somewhat apparent in Mordhau, where you hit with the start up of your swing that no one could block or see, it just landed, this was obviously unfair and I think everyone can agree with that. It is something both games fixed I believe, I know Chivalry 2 fixed it cause it was a big thing.

[@Gh0s7GaMers]

The animation abuse is the only thing that made me quit mordhau. i loved the game aesthetic and custumization tough, what a shame.

[@vildae]

it's not so common in frontline/invasion, especially now with the flood of F2P players

[@trevmizer9784]

@@vildae yes it is. Most of the new players have already left.

[@vildae]

@@trevmizer9784 servers look full to me

[@ultrazihnu]

During the whole video I was like "YIIICH nice underhead accel, remembers me of competitive games in Mord back when I was lvl 100" I don't find the animations abuses goofy anymore. I mean, it makes sens that if you want to attack the legs of your opponent with an over head, you have to avoid him parrying you. Mord is more about footwork and distance management. And believe me, you can win against some F-up lvl skilled players with just your footwork. Take the spear for instance, it has no broken animations, hiding your attack is what you constantly do IRL, as well as making it quicker. PLUS, the kick is sooooo damn satisfying yet under rated.

[@vildae]

that's the opinion of you, experienced player. i partly agree but the problem is that this is kind of secret, hard to access for newer players (esp. in Mordhau). i'm discussing this stuff in my new video (today published).

[@Goodluckbuddy1408]

You should not be able to swing an over head, have the blade at my forehead, and then proceed to hit my feet. They need to fix that lol.

[@vildae]

technically, there's a lot of unreal stuff. but it's a videogame.

[@berthold64]

I really like pulling mordhau feints (cancels) on chiv 2. Even high level players fall for it.

[@vildae]

it’s super weird with some sword stabs. it’s for mind games.

[@GamingDualities]

its one of thoe things that is find for the user when u master it and unfun for people dealing with that.

[@lorenzopaci3945]

its good to bait counters.

[@rfphenom7691]

Its the reason i quit both mord and chiv 2. Attacks should just be faster in general without needing to look all around to accel/decel your hits. Thrusts are the worst, makes zero sense how a thrust that hits you being moved horizontally would do full damage, its just silly and annoying.

[@uh-ohspaghettio7826]

My biggest gripe with Mordhau is how ridiculous the drags are. Easy solution. Just make the damage counter deplete drastically the longer the swing.

[@vildae]

i don't think that would work well.

[@Jobtheplayer]

Its like a clown fight when people use that tech.

[@azureprophet]

The problem with Mordhau isn't that the techniques are hard to learn. It's that they're incredibly boring and feel nothing like real sword fighting. Completely turned me off from the game. Losing in Mordhau sucks. Losing in Chivalry 2 while you get better is really fun. Getting completely stomped in a duel by a level 500 sweat is interesting. They're way more likely to show you how to get better instead of just saying "git gud."

[@vildae]

yup, that’s what i also covered in my new video i released yesterday

[@Specoups]

Mordhau player here. Most neutral drags and most accels techniques are fine, because while they are unexpected when you first encounter them, you can actually read them with experience. The average Mordhau drags and accels are actually good for the game, they offer some variety in your approaches while being totally manageable provided you have enough experience against it. It's just a bit unfair that they have no real downsides associated with them, that it's basically "free" to use, so much so that normal swings are rarely used anymore beyond level 60-70. I mean, sometimes accels may put you in a bad position against an opponent that has good footwork, but that's about it. They should have some downsides, like drags should maybe deal less damage. Accels should increase the length of recovery frames so your next swing will be delayed, opening the possibility for your opponent to use a quick attack to regain initiative like a kick or a stab (basically limiting accel combos, such as the infuriating chained accelled underhands you showed). However, there are obviously techniques that are plain wrong because no matter the amount of experience you have in the game, you will fall for them. Shit like cucumbers (circumventing a well-timed parry from your opponent by redirecting what should be a missed strike into his hitbox at the very last moment), and riposte accelled overheads with some weapons such as the poleaxe, longsword. I've noticed that basically a third of the weird shit that infuriates players is linked to this strategy of redirecting "missed" swings into actual hits. And it can also be done with stabs, as their active damage frames are way too generous (you can basically hover your stab horizontally and hit with it, like what the fuck?). Talking about animations, most of them are fine when the player you are facing is entirely visible. However, there is the possibility of facing an opponent using large shields like the round shield, kite shield, or the pavise, to purposefully hide their body, so you can't read the moment their strikes are released. This is impossible to counter, it's cheap in every way, it forces you to gamble, it removes like half of the experience in the duel. The issue is there since release and it's never been adressed by Triternion. Then there is the issue of some weapons having blatantly unfair stats, like the spear, scimitar and short spear stabs having absurdly short windups and combo speeds, making it so you CAN'T have the initiative against them, resulting in you being constantly stuck in 50/50 guesses setups that you cannot prevent with an accel, a quick stab, or a kick. If you try to contest the 50/50 setup, you eat the first stab because yours will be too slow, and if you don't contest it, well you now have to flip a coin and gamble your parry (perfect illustration against the player Ye Xin Ping at 8:10). What I'm angry about is that Triternion already managed to fix most of what was wrong with Chivalry's combat through brilliant and fine-tuned work on animations, swing frame mechanics, proper hitbox tracking... They basically did the most difficult part and they did it well. And since the issues that Mordhau still has are quite easy to figure out and fix, why can't they just adress them? They did the hardest part of the job and just like "gave up" working on the remaining details. And those remaining details have indeed catastrophic consequences although it wouldn't be that hard to fix them.

[@funkydoctah2978]

Sir, you just earned a new subscriber. I appreciate that you're saying the sad truth about animations abuse in Mordhau while being experienced player. For me playing Mordhau is still a toxic relationship, but I will not surrender after 300 hours. I wish you all the best kind Sir.

[@mikeesteves8427]

i personally think hiding attacks behind your body or feinting correctly is cool (the overhead into body turn and then stab looks so smooth) because its realistic but i really despise abusing janky animations

[@YaGirlZero]

Let's be blatantly clear, this is not why people leave games, ordinary long/quick drags/accels are fair, and most players do not even know how to accomplish the unfair ones

[@YaGirlZero]

Also, I think that chiv2's general animations suck, even more than mords which are almost all the same which causes problems with non-swords. But chiv's animations are just bad and animation abuse makes it even worse. Chiv2 is much more casual friendly

[@octaviosardi3337]

I have to say 7/10 times I feel its bullshit. Sure Im aware it takes some serious hours to master such techniques, but playing casually becomes nearly impossible because I become forced to learn a meta I dont want to. I am all about hardcore games and difficult experiences and even gatekeeping said games to more casual plebs; but honestly when its an ONLINE experience that you yourself want to or can only enjoy for shorter periods of time, it completely messes with your motivation to keep playing. I prefer Chiv 2 for this matter. Its way more laid back and everyone stands a chance (most of the time). Animations are not as scuffed there, however when I get murked there I just think, "damn! I got got". Of course depends on my mood on that day. However in Mordhau its just hyper frustrating because of how combat works in general. To summarize, my problem is not really the animation abuse, rather its the gameplay differences and the ways you can counter these "features". Chiv2 clearly rewards you for patience and proper defense. While Mordhau rewards you for keeping the momentum, which in turn benefits the animation abuser. Great mic btw.

[@octaviosardi3337]

I will add in a separate comment that: Many people in the comments almost share my opinion on liking hardcore difficult games and almost gatekeeping because they say "people must have the mentality that there's gonna be better players", yes sure, but first: *its an online game* if you gatekeep too hard it will die. Second: One thing is having good players using every game mechanic to win. Another is having astronomically experienced players that make use of obscure mechanics. Why are these two points different? A good game or balancing team will make sure most mechanics are viable and flowing with each other to make the progression of skill be rewarding. A meta will form on the most viable and everyone will use it, only those who master this very logical simple to pick up meta skillset will win, now the meta has become the identity of the game. Now the second case, its the dark ages, the game is not clear and there are no clear skillsets you can develop on your own at a pace quick enough for you to survive more than 1 minute on the field. This is already difficult and the moment yoy start catching up with the basics, you are disrupted by a dark lord of the sith that abuses a very obscure mechanic and skilk only achieved through killing your master. Which game will a normal player pick? Sure the pros might like second choice. But why try to satisfy the pros when it is new players who keep the game alive for the pros to thrive...

[@vildae]

good points.

[@laughingstock7638]

if i play a medieval melee game, i want to engage in a cool 1v1 swordfight that looks cool too. seeing my opponent twirl around while doing nonsense animations just looks bugged to me.

[@tomi9159]

Thank you for good some Mordhau tips! I personally love the swing manipulations in these games and it's what got me into them. You will have lots of fun learning the thechniques with your friends and in some ways it reminds you of playing something like SKATE 3 again. Other part is learning to read these attacks which happens only after getting shat on by people who use them which is not as rewarding since you won't get it right for a few hundred hours, but 99% of these attacks are readable when you put some time in. It does have some unreadables as well but you can usually footwork past them/punish them somehow. I understand why people dislike this though so it's good to have Chivalry 2 around. We need more first person melee fighting games.

[@vildae]

„Thanks for tips“ 💀 i’m spreading this disease xD just kidding, it was supposed to be like a documentary, but it’s possible to learn some stuff from it. glad you enjoyed the vid and I agree w/ you.

[@ghostdog9906]

I can confirm that animation abuse is hard for new players. I nearly have over 4k hours in Mordhau now. and im top 100. It really is not a Medival fight game anymore. its more like who can abuse what more. Makes the game not really fun anymore.

[@vildae]

thanks for an input from a pro. and i thought all the top players enjoy that shit xd

[@lenny_1369]

1:07 i was just thinking about this, it blew my mind when i realised i had the correct assumption that players were hiding their attacks and i was so confused why i couldnt predict them

[@vildae]

yes, and it’s usually so easy to do.

[@williamprice1497]

I don’t mind it at all until it’s immersion breaking. I feel like chiv 2 has that down pretty good

[@frailty7280]

I havent been deep into melee games in a while, but when I was younger I used to frequent Chivalry 1 duel servers, I really loved learning the janky animation abuse in that game. First time I pulled off a reverse overhead I about creamed and then proceeded to onetrick that move for like a year. Worked most of the time too

[@vildae]

lmaooo

[@rdzdoodles8592]

Finally, someone addressed this lately ; - ; I used to play those games before I got a new computer. Now, with a new setup and better internet connection I've noticed improvement in my combat skill, but this silly animation "mechanic" is absolutely silly that it made me uninstall and just get back to For Honor instead :/

[@thejester3162]

All i got to say is the fact that you cant read them show that your just at a certain level of skill. Good footwork and observation along with a calm head you can avoid, and even punish these moves.

[@jarjars3261]

Honestly, coming from Chivalry 1 and going on to play Mordhau, manipulation of attack animations is the entire reason the genre is interesting to me. It offers an incredibly high skill ceiling that keeps people competitive. The fact that even now, after hundreds of hours in those games I still learn new techniques I couldn't do last month, even though I back then already had all the tools to do so is a lot more engaging than any other form of progression in all of gaming. It's not the game making you better at the game, it's you making you better at the game.

[@Tinkuwu]

Animations can still be read, it's just that you need to put in the time and effort to read them. People don't want to do that, they want to jump in, spam LMB and get 100 kills. That's the issue. These are high skill ceiling games, where the players on the skill floor want to be as good as the people on the skill ceiling, but without putting in the time and effort it takes to get there. That's why people quit these games. It's the reason why someone would play Overwatch over Quake 3 Arena. Funke made this original point, but in terms of movement shooters, the ones that are successful are the ones that lower the skill needed to make casual/less skilled players able to pull off amazing feats in games. For example: In Quake, to rocket jump, you need to first find a rocket launcher, then shoot the ground under yourself to trade off one rocket plus some health for a brief mobility increase. In Overwatch, you select Pharah and hit shift. People just don't want to spend time on a game that has a high skill ceiling, which is understandable. In a time where there's hundreds of games competing for a player's time, most players don't want to spend a majority of their time in one game. But that's where I think the beauty of the skill ceiling is, it rewards players who do practice and learn the game's mechanics, which is how it should be. Why should you lose your ability to play the game because you're not a max level character in a PvP game? If you just installed the game and you start learning, you can overcome your challenges. There was a time where 20 hour players, who actually learned the game, could beat me when I had 700 hours in Mordhau. The only thing that's stopping you from doing the same is your own choice of if you're willing to learn or not.

[@jakebocskovits7426]

It is the primary reason I quit these games before I even begin. Animation Abuse. It’s so goddamn unfair in the sense that the best strategy against this type of player is to just never engage them. Constantly trying to figure out their next move when they can read you like an open book for playing the game as intended. It’s super frustrating. Animation tactics like JPEG, wriste, and the one that hides pole stabs are what I consider skill. But the other ones where you screw with you animation is delving into animation abuse territory.

[@myhighlights7758]

Chiv 2 is broken, look at this delay at the begging of the video. You hit person with absolutely no impact, then he just dies after a second or two. That thing feels so much frustrating while playing. In mordhau you feel exactly the moment when your blade connects with enemy's body.

[@grandosprey6450]

You have to admire someone being able to do feats that seem impossible, but also hate the fact that to be the best at nearly anything you have to abuse the system.

[@WADETEC]

Just because something requires skill doesn't mean it's fair. Animation manipulation is unfair. Hiding an animation on the other hand is fair because it still exist and is being blocked by perspective rather than being misrepresented.

[@eyakimicki]

I really admire how you show both Chiv and Mordhau. I play both and this is very nice

[@xLordxMarsx]

Aiming for the the face/camera is a real life technique. It makes things less reactable. I'm talking about the axe thrust.

[@SharkWrestler]

It really kills the game with me, where i had 1500+ hours in chiv 1 i only ended up putting 24 into mordhau, i am not going through the stress of dealing with game breaking exploits again. Im loving torn banner for fixing what they can, theyve mostly redeemed themselves after abandoning their first 3 projects

[@sambal777]

I just spam feints with maul in mordhau so it looks like its frozen in swing animation lol

[@ICEknightnine]

it should deal damage based on how far along the animation is. or ideally how fast the weapon's tip is moving.

[@vildae]

that would be mathematically rough and will bring many more issues. check my new video what i suggested to fix this problem: kzbin.info/www/bejne/baKmmKijj8urhbc

[@michaeltyers7336]

Surely someone can come up with a better system than either of these games

[@noggin8216]

I disliked it in Mordhau because it felt like an unattainably high skill ceiling, but now having mastered it, it’s an absolute joy. It may be unintentional but the mechanics combine to create an extremely fun experience. The moment it changed for me was when I learned how to mitigate swing manipulation with footwork. Body manipulation is the most fun aspect of this game for me.

[@ancalagon1144]

Same. But it took me hundreds of hours to reach that point. People that have lives understandably aren't going to put up with that so it's no wonder the playerbase is what it is.

[@noggin8216]

@@ancalagon1144 I have a full time job, but it did take me about a long time to rack up 1k hours

[@saber2802]

Mordhau's animation abuse and very wide parry box is kind of why I stopped playing it. Imagine if the parry box were smaller-

[@sunderkeenin]

I think one of the main problems with chivalry 2 is that it's a third person game. A lot of these animation abuses are unsafe to use to a degree where they're confusing in chiv 2 while in first person which offers respectable tradeoffs, but there's several reasons you wouldn't want to and shouldn't use first such as: 1) weapon animations are inaccurate(rapier alt stab is the most obvious, go stab through a wall with it) 2) the weapon viewmodels are overly prominent and some animations outright cover as much as if not more than half the screen 3) viewport location makes it particularly difficult to read players who are looking up or away, as third person has a height advantage. Most anims in chiv 2 are essentially fine even if they have floaty and deceptive anims like exe axe and cav sword, however I do think the most grotesque things such as 1h overhand specials and messer/LS anims do deserve some looking at. I think Torn Banner is simply afraid that defense will become too strong though because to a large degree it already is, but to approach the issue of offense being too weak in a healthy manner I think that's just one to take on the chin. Quarterstaff is another interesting one, as I think it has particular stuff with its windup which makes most of what it is doing legible even if it's ugly until you've gotten used to it, but it may need a little looking at for its to/from stab feints.

[@vildae]

yes, that's what I thought as well. in the process of making the video, I've played Chivalry and changed perspectives (I played 3rd p most of the time) and I noticed a huge change.

[@Pornegon]

I wouldn't mind this animation abuse if it looked like an actual display of good swordsmanship from the perspective of those who face it. Trying to get into Mordhau now and every time a level 200+ puts me into the ground he either shakes around like a spastic, bows to my feet with every blow or does similar shit that belongs in a freak circus, not on a battlefield. Terribly immersion-breaking, ugly to look at and leaves an unpleasant experience altogether.

[@GamingDualities]

Mordhau could be 3x bigger with Voice Chat

[@GamingDualities]

@@bupkis72 it would be optional. U could totally mute it. Or only let few people talk. U could just use emotes. Woudnt be that hard to implement. And this has the potential to make Mordhau most played game on the marker

[@bloodyclan43]

It would bring more toxity and hate

[@johnreeves3876]

Iv'e been addicted to mordhau since it went free on epic and was really hyped to find your videos about it.

[@vildae]

yes, im planning some Mordhau vids. 😎

[@pepticbirch]

Last time I played a game like this I came across a guy that looked like a windmill and killed me and all my friends in seconds, checked his profile and he had 400 hours (this was like 2012) and from then on i have never touched one citing “the windmill” to all my friends lol.

[@CepheusFromTheMoon]

in Chiv 1 the secret to deal with the crazy animations was to follow the tip of the weapon

[@Amogius]

Chiv 1 had such extreme animations that i would often not even look at opponents and just use audio to know when i need to turn around and block. Chiv 2 and mordhau you can atleast for the most part trust your eyes.

[@dumpstercast-refuseradio8429]

This is the exact reason games like this die though. When bugs raise the skill floor of your game and consequently exclude people from playing it because they can't get ahead without abusing those bugs and making the combat look really stupid, it's a bad thing, even if you can learn to reproduce the bugs consistently enough to rely on them. If you want these to more resemble intentional mechanics, you should design a game around them and include them on purpose. Otherwise, people end up buying a cool medieval knight game thinking it'll just be about swords and can't play it because it's actually about memorizing how to block moves with unreadable telegraphs and learning that cheese yourself or getting eaten alive because you can't/won't.

[@cmonbruh1798]

First off, nice video. I do agree unreadable attacks can be frustrating especially when it feels like a 50/50 if ur gonna guess the attack correctly, but on the same token a game without any of the weird stuff that comes with real time swing manip would probably be very boring. Mordhaus animations are very bad, some people (myself included) might even say they are unreadable at a mid to high level. Hopefully new games like Ad Morten and Mobius are able to keep drags but also make them more readable and fair

[@durakeno5575]

I think mount and blade does this a lot better. Since it accounts for the speed. So if the hit looks awkward, the damage is nerfed incredibly.

[@NightmareBlade10]

Swing manipulation is what made me quit mordhau ranked 1v1s. This stuff was carried over from Chiv 1, and it has now been carried over into Chiv 2 as well.

[@vildae]

i mean swing manip is ok, it's the extra anitions that make it harder

[@elementaldemon4624]

Tried mordhau a while back and hated how i couldnt read half the attacks coming my way. Didnt feel like learning keyboard and mouse dance dance revolution just to play a "realistic" medieval combat game.

[@Tank22080]

Did they ever fix the cheese from the first one? You could hold over head swing putting great sword down to th calf then leaning back to make the sword clip into th ground at your heels, then in a quick motion spin your back to the enemy following through with the overhead swing. However due to the fact the tip of the great sword hit box is below the enemies feet the either got lucky with a low block..... From an overhead swing or couldn't block it regardless because the tip would hit the bottom of your foot which you can't block bottom of your foot just like shoot in foot from below or when hit in foot during Arial attack jump/fall from above.

[@vildae]

i think that's not possible in any game now.

[@rexuro64]

ive noticed in bannerlord the animations are fairly readable because you cant really twist your character by looking up or down and also swing speed bonus is a thing

[@vildae]

ye but the combat is far more basic. more on this topic in my newest video

[@almightyIrie]

I didn't play Mordhau in a long while, but was blown away by the more advanced players on duel servers, really making me get better at the art as well.. The visible skill gap in a first person melee game was just fantastic. to the very end, I had fights ranging from owning to getting owned to really close back and forth matches lasting what felt like an intense eternity... I remained stubborn in the usage of Executioner's Sword, which again had pros and cons at well, I guess.. eeeh, might reinstall thinking about it now

[@vildae]

Exe's sword is good, but I hate no--combo weapons (because missing to combo is op)

[@almightyIrie]

@@vildae yea 100%, but it also keeps things a bit simpler.. anyways, i just re-installed, might try something other than Exe's to get back into it.

[@vildae]

@@almightyIrie good! hope you'll be happy.

[@Ilyas_Kutliakhmetov]

In Chiv 2, the animations are too raw and the permanent block does not work, since you have to constantly do a counter attack, and there are a lot of problems with a large ping.

[@backspacepunk7084]

I don't think mordhaus animations are broken, just very hard to read. It really boils down to spacing and patience. What a lot of people don't realize is that in mordhau there is always a yell when the strike begins, so with spacing,strike animations and sound you can always tell when to parry, just gotta be patient. I get that high level players can abuse the naiveness of new players and that sucks, and the animations can be hard to read, but it is a hard game, the skill goes trough the roof after playing for a while. Medieval Dark souls fpv

[@ItThatSleeps]

I think for me it falls into the same category as moves that combo into themselves in fighting games. players aren't actually doing anything wrong by using it but that doesn't mean it doesn't feel scummy when you run into it

[@Amogius]

Both games come from chiv 1 . That game hade by far the most extreme animation ”abuse”. The devs of mordhau and chiv 2 had to tackle the problem of balancing the game looking good to non basement dwellers whilest still having skill progression. Mordhau tries to have a higher skill ceiling and chiv tries to be more casuall in its gameplay.

[@Rebek133]

Noob expirience: Chiv - Imma spam slash and actualy able to get some kills in team games Mordhau - Beeing a healthpack to some ungodly creature that makes 100+ kills a game Guess wich one makes you quit faster

[@roliz]

playing around with animations makes mordhau so much more interesting. just shows that there is a much more vast skill cap than in other games, despite being a pretty basic game concept

[@kptz4343]

Every mordhau clip in this video looks absolutely ridiculous and stupid.

[@gallowglass3764]

I think Mordhau is one of those games that's friendlier to players with more time? I have a full time job AND I'm trying to start a company. I'm not a good gamer, so taking the time to get gud at Mordhau is not really an option for me. Which is why I think more people are playing Chiv2. It's more user friendly to the average gamer.

[@mihos11]

Good video, unreadable attacks are the reason I stopped playing mordhau, I played scrims and used to be top 200 1v1 at one point so I was pretty high level but I just got sick of the insane animations in the game and went back to fps games

[@vildae]

thanks for your opinion. love to have some point of view from someone more experienced.

[@GomulDart]

The problem is, its unavoidable. unless you want every fighting game to be like for honor, or skyrim, its pretty much inevitable that swing manipulation is possible. natural byproduct of having freedom of movement and agency in how you swing. If you dont like swing manipulation, play for honor. That being said I'm talking to the people who called accels/drags "animation abuse". There are some cases where there is a move that is blatantly an exploit but I've noticed some people call any type of swing manipulation "animation abuse"

[@vildae]

yes, i completely agree. it's a byproduct of complex combat system. as i said in the introduction, "and always WILL be in every melee game".

[@GomulDart]

@@vildae yup! Very cool video btw. I didn't want it to sound like I was criticizing you, I think you covered this topic nicely and I agree with just about everything you said. It's an interesting topic with a lot to talk about so I'm glad someone finally made a video on it! I just often see the sentiment that I mentioned and wanted to get ahead of it. anyway, thanks for you time! Subscribed :D

[@vildae]

@@GomulDart ye im not feeling criticized, thanks for your feedback and sub!

[@qChumber]

Hm I think animation hiding is a lil more readable as both games do have an initiative system meaning if they hit u they're most likely gunna attack again and soon so keep an eye on wind-up animations

[@vildae]

Chivalry doesn’t have iniciative

[@qChumber]

@@vildae Chiv 2 has one. There are jabs that may interrupt a combo but regardless it's still and first hit gets to combo system.

[@vildae]

​@@qChumber i know, i was joking but being a bit serious as well. the things is that compared to Mordhau, the iniciative in Chivalry is really 'bad'. Mordhau's iniciative is really strict and players take turns in offense/defense. if you attack when you should defend, you are 99 % punished. Chivalry's system allows players to make 'calculated gambles' which break iniciative. if you land a hit, you should continue to attack and the other person should be defending, but depending on their weapon, they can usually even hit you while you are attacking. i could go on, but this is the core of the Chivalry's inicitiave issue.

[@qChumber]

@@vildae i can agree and say chiv 2s initiative system is more of a suggestion than a rule since most 1h weapons and moves can ignore initiative but i dont think that makes it a bad thing as long as the players know what gives and takes initiative. its kinda why i prefer chiv 2s way more than mordhau since theres a lot of options than funny wessex drag and feint spam.

[@darkshadowsx5949]

these games are about who can be the jankiest player. if you play the game fairly or realistically your going to have a bad time. you have to be the most spazzed out pos with the reaction time of super sayan blue goku with kaio-ken times 30 to win. there also seems to be competition over who can make the most fkd up username. apparently the more wild and unimaginative the user name the stronger you get. like painting flames and racing stripes on a car.

[@vildae]

yep, that's the idea. not realy sure about the usernames, but janky anims = win.

[@yourfather8865]

I agree with your view on the game. I completely agree that animation abuse is frustrating, but at the same time it's a certain skill, and when you get the hang of it, the game is pretty fun, I like to mess around in it, but I understand it will not get pas the state of niche game I love

[@rzr0015]

I am new player, I can still hold my own against animation bs 1v1. What I really hate is a group of 4 sweats running together in casual server and ganking new players while they have no idea where they are supposed to put the powder barrels they picked up. Another problem against older players are they *WILL* turtle. They will stare at you and block anything you do, I then lead them back to my teammates and the default Archers tear them open with the meat cleaver 🤣

[@vildae]

ye, that's whole another problem -- mordhau's teambalancing.

[@rzr0015]

@@vildae yep. Team red: you get 3 lvl 250, 5 lvl 100. Good, now.. Blue team: you get a whole range, from lvl3-lvl24. But sire... Silence, I have spoken.

[@nekokiki4002]

I love how they are sweating even when just hitting air for a video

[@vildae]

wanted to showcase it all. anything wrong?

[@kingdingaling5055]

Sadly 95% of medieval melee games revolve around "high level" players breaking animations with glitches or exploits and the developers either to dumb or lazy to to fix it. Beeb playing mortal online 2 and even in that game its the same thing just revolves around trying to break animation so you can land a hit otherwise you pretty much cant because its so easy to read.

[@vildae]

it's kinda necessary unless we want to have combat like in Skyrim

[@kingdingaling5055]

@@vildae yes and no, you have for honor war of the roses and life is feudal which imo are examples of good animations as well as chivalry 1 and deadliest warrior. Mount and blade kinda but I don't play the online that much. It is what it is I just stopped playing them ppl that enjoy it can easier to move on then to wait for devs to "fix" something

[@kiba_the_lucky]

i hate animation exploiting in both mordhau and chiv 2 but ngl.... at least it's not chiv 1

[@HyeonsikLi]

Awesome video, especially Thumbnail! ;)

[@vildae]

thanks! I was happy with the video, and I wanted it to reach as many people as possible, so that's why i made this nice thumbnail ÷)

[@IXVLI]

I remember every time of "HOW TF THIS ONE HITS ME"

[@StridahsAngels]

I love that you made this video and it popped up on my feed! Any interest in being on a podcast?

[@vildae]

Honour to have you here! Never been on a podcast, but I'm curious! Let me know on Discord, vildae#1667.

[@scooterman103]

I stopped playing these games with Chiv 1 because some guy rainbow'd me with a sledge and I knew it was never going to get better. I knew the sweaty neckbeards were there to stay.

[@ajustdragon]

as an ex mordhau comp player, i have some rarer opinions. i enjoy both chiv 2 and mh combat, but mordhau undeniably has a higher skill ceiling. the ability to read is (or was) the greatest skill possible in mordhau, and the ability to swing manip is the most beautiful and interesting form of skill expression i've encountered in any game. unfortunately, there are some issues with mordhau that severly harm the skill ceiling, and make for unfair gameplay. while the netcode is exceptional for an indie game, it is not quite good enough to keep up with greater-than-average accels. this results in what is known as red parries, where your parry is essentially lost in ping. this favor of accels unfairly buffs feints with certain weapons, as the window for reaction to optimal accels tends to be several times smaller than typical human reaction time. therefore, both hard reading and drags are inadvertently nerfed, as hard reading becomes unreliable and micro-drags provide more than enough of a mixup in the accel focused meta. you can accommodate for these issues somewhat with better footwork or kicks or straight up gambling, but these pale in comparison to a mordhau where hard reading and beautiful drags are as viable as the current accel dominant meta. chiv 2 is a fun game for turning the brain off and pub-stomping.

[@vildae]

i appreciate your long comment, thanks for an opinion of a higher-level guy!

[@Brunobasket21]

I just wanted to be silly with a friend in a gore medieval game. Found out its full of tryhards either sniping from Mordor or busting my ass quicker than I can react to. Quit Mourdhau the same day I tried it.

[@Xhelah207]

same reason i stopped warband multiplayer, any random guy with a heavy weapon could instantly block everything and hit you from any angle faster than you with a one handed weapon+shield (mainly because they were spinning like a beyblade). or if they are using ranged it seems like they never fail a headshot meanwhile on your end seems like you have the lowest archery skill.

[@vildae]

i had no idea Mwb had this issue

[@Xhelah207]

@@vildae Honestly at this point i dont know if its just that everyone in that game cheats in some way because even in 1v2's most players will win because they manage to block all attacks from all directions instantly and still do damage on the weirdest angles ever. For me at least it seems that even with the same weapon their attack animations are just faster. Shit like this killed my love for medieval multiplayer games, people are way sweatier (and toxic in comms) and do more broken shit that in an FPS game, and that says a lot.

[@vildae]

@@Xhelah207 my theory why players are more toxic is bcs the game is much more 'intimate'. instead of getting a quick bullet to a head (from a distance), you dance around with your opponent in close quarters, and for a longer times. players' feelings are probably way too intense in these situations.

[@Ben_of_Milam_Music]

The reason why animation abuse is perceived as "unfair" by casual players (e.g. 90% of the market) is because anim abuse isn't part of the fantasy or experience that people are buying into. People buy the funny knight game so they can swing a sword around, not so they can spin their mouse around and make Sir Lancelot look like Stretch Armstrong. It's a sort of dissonance between what the player wanted to do, and what they are forced to do in order to stay competitive. There's a reason why both Mordhau and Chiv 2 absolutely hemorrhaged players just one month after launch. No one wants to play the "give yourself motion sickness while doing something vaguely related to medieval combat" games.

[@Puzomor]

I disliked that your immediate take on this is that animation manipulation WILL be present in all similar games. Animations in these games (all 3d games, really) control your character's body through rotations of its skeleton's bones. The way players manipulate the mechanic is by additionally directly rotating the body parts and the body itself, on top of animations. This is something the game must explicitly support. The way to remove this from games is to not code that in. This isn't trivial of course, because this heavily impacts game's mechanics and balance - but here lies the art and skill of game development. The coordination of animation, programming and design departments to overcome that IS what game development really is. To say that the issue cannot be overcome is both extremely short-sighted and narrow-minded, on top of being unreasonably pessimistic. Otherwise great video, it's just this one single idea that rubs me wrong.

[@Chroma710]

I would love to play these games more without shitty exploits. Just one game where animation abusing isn't a necessary part of not being stomped. Every single time I stopped playing was because sweatlords who lab animation abuse like its a fighting game combo are EVERYWHERE.

[@IllD.]

Would hope they make some sort of dark souls type adventure game with this combat system. Would be amazing.

[@berthold64]

>locked on trash and rolling 10000x No, thanks.

[@andreniki8864]

@@berthold64 Well he said DS style, not copying the whole game mechanics.

[@colebolesky1773]

halo had a similar thing a while back with animation abuse majority of the playerbase wanted it removed for the following games because it created a different gameplay loop, what I see here is the same thing. Bad animations and some slight oversights made the optimal way to play just plain boring for most people and while the hardcore fans of chiv love this it will kill off the game there isn't enough 3 am duel players to fund the genre let people play the game how it was meant to be played. Another example cod players also know this and are serious about sniper balance because not everyone wants to run 100 sens intervention even tho its cool.

[@FauItless]

I disagree with people saying mordhaus manip is an 'exploit', while it was unaccounted for in chiv 1, its completely intended to be an integral mechanic to someones offense in mordhau. No, they are not unreadable, the reason people get hit with 'unreadable' swings is that they simply just dont footwork correctly, you getting hit with a drag when you expected an accel isnt unreadable, its them conditioning you correctly and you failing to read properly. The hardest swings to read are the ones you dont anticipate which is why reading an opponent before their swing goes into release is far more important than mid-swing. Plus, to get really good manip you need to spend atleast a few hundred hours practicing the manip alone so is it really a fair criticism when someone with ten times the hours of someone else beats them and the other person says thats bs? Its like toddlers getting mad that lebron james beat them 400-0

[@vildae]

i could respond with a lot of things, but the best would be to jsut reffer you to my newest video about anim abuse that discusses the reasons why players get upset. maybe you'll understand bit better.

[@5anticot782]

this video is gold, thanks a lot man 👍🏻

[@thatbrentguy9531]

Here's my unpopular take, should jank and broken things be fixed? Of course, but unreadable offense is not as a big of an issue as much as it is just frustrating. Having good, accessible*, offense in a fighting game is peak fighting game. Fighting games that favor defense vs offense are simply not fun. Take fighting a round shield tank build for example, why is that not fun? Needs no explanation. I think Mordhau has issues, one of the bigs ones being accessibility and newer players not knowing the tools to have better offense and even defense.

[@Projolo]

Very unpopular, that's the reason chiv 1 died and most of the players left mordhau almost killing it.

[@Liam-ke2hv]

​@@Projolo thats really not the reason for mordhaus failure at all. In fact demand for that kind of gameplay is what got chivalry 1 and mordhay attention from the competitive community in the first place

[@letrashcan6239]

I like everything that raises skill ceiling. I love it