The Recipe: Macaroni and Cheese

[@jordanfish]

I love that Kenji always gives Chef John credit for the cold milk trick. Respect.

[@egress8445]

The two food youtube GOATs, for my money

[@spinni81]

I have to give credit to my own. She showed me this "trick" 30 years ago.

[@squints2978]

My Gran also taught me this method almost 40 years ago! Cold milk for the win

[@miriglith4293]

He is after all the boss, of the cold milk bechamel sauce.

[@dwhamm0]

@@miriglith4293 I'd hate to be wrong but there is no way those two wouldn't get along swimmingly.

[@sirensongss]

chef john would make a lovely guest for your podcast i think! his recipes are never the most advanced, but i think he is a one of a kind talent in making his recipes approachable and still high quality. hearing his process would be a dream

[@cdub42]

I adore that CJ has stayed so true to his mission. He refined his presentation over like maybe 4 or 5 years (after being literally one of the first youtube cooking shows), then has just stuck with making it all about the food, and all about making cooking accessible. So many others do not use their evolution in service of their initial ideals, and cow to the money, but CJ figured out how to be exceedingly pure throughout his development. That said, I would love if he would do an alt channel that did more complex, "cheffy" recipes and techniques. You know he's got swaths of knowledge that he could bestow upon us that isn't transmissible with his current format. Maybe a book? Maybe a Kenji/Chef John book collab would be the real hot ish...

[@ginzo666]

That's the genius of Chef John: Making recipes people will actually attempt! I'm a pretty decent home cook, but I always cringe when I see a recipe with too many ingredients. I start going over, in my head, all the stores I'd need to visit to get all the ingredients, then move on to something simpler.

[@FaceIntoKeyboard]

We love the 3 ingredient version and make it regularly. It's simple enough that even the 9 year old can cook it well. We do scale it up to a larger version, but it really doesn't take much longer. 16oz of pasta, 16oz of shredded cheese, 1 full can of evaporated milk. We drop in some broccoli or smoked sausage and it is amazing. It even reheats pretty well if you add in some milk or half and half.

[@hand__banana]

also goes quite well with a bit of mustard (stolen from the ATK recipe),

[@terrenceistheman]

Same on the upscaling. I usually add peas and bacon and a splash of hot sauce but I might give broccoli a try!

[@frcShoryuken]

@@hand__banana Just regular yellow mustard or mustard powder?

[@hand__banana]

@@frcShoryuken I use regular old yellow mustard or the coarse ground one, I think inglehoffer's the brand but I'm sure any would work if you like mustard.

[@brettmoore6781]

how much water in the scaled up version?

[@call_me_ping]

Kenji, I cannot express how grateful I am for your videos and your wonderful presence as a chef through the screen. I love watching and learning from you!

[@Poblasai9]

Kind of interesting that Deb uses a more classic mac and cheese technique (roux/béchamel) with an more Italian flavor profile while Kenji uses a more Italian technique with a more traditional flavor profile. Something, something, great minds, and such.

[@riccardocarbo2479]

That's a keen observation. I like it.

[@egek]

I love this guy, great narrative, awesome facts, kitchen looks like a normal person's kitchen, not a youtuber billionaire's kitchen

[@ruled_by_pluto]

Kenji, I think your channel is appealing because you do things your own way. Even those of us who are lifelong homecooks can find new ideas and learn new things from your takes on classics like mac and cheese. The originality is what keeps me coming back, including the use of the go-pro and the style of cooking.

[@janakumer]

Years ago, when I moved into my first flat on my own I started cooking properly. Every pasta video mentioned to reserve pasta water to thicken the sauce. I started thinking: "why not just add enough water to cook the pasta and then I have a sauce". Since then I cooked pretty much every pasta dish I made like that. And it surprised me that till this video none of the KZbinrs I watch did the same technique. Its just so much better for me. Any sauce is much smoother and saucier. Can only recommend.

[@chromeWarriorXIII]

I think Ethan Chlebowski did a video on what he called "risotto style" pasta where he did this and came to same conclusion you did: that it was easier and better.

[@cybergoth2002]

I think part of the reason for this is it's more flexible if you only have one pot (you can just pour the water out into a glass and then make the sauce). However, if you use a separate pot just for boiling the pasta (or a pan like kenji), there's no reason not to just reserve some water in that to add to your sauce later. you won't even really need to scrub the pot out afterwards, making it by far the easiest method

[@bemccune7671]

Totally! Kenji has been recommending this for a long time. Cool that you came to the same conclusion on your own. I love how much scientific thinking such as this helps us in the kitchen!

[@Pinfeldorf]

The general reason this happens is because to properly boil pasta, it really helps for the water to not shock below the boiling point when you add in room temperature noodles. So if you have 2 gallons of water rolling and add in 16 ounces of pasta, you're extremely unlikely to have a problem. Boxed pasta are running under the assumption people are adding their product to water that will stay boiling, and the instructions on the package will reflect that. Starting up pasta from cold water with barely enough to cover the noodles is perfectly fine, but if the box said "babysit your pasta until the water begins to boil and then test it for the level of al dente you desire" it would probably not be extremely popular. So here we are, culinary rogues and scientists, breaking rules and hearts.

[@loupmeilland8785]

the reason for keeping the pasta water is mostly for the starch inside it (emulsifier) so with more water, less starch no ?

[@elyero4053]

I was so impressed by how quickly the cheddar & evaporated milk emulsified, will definitely be trying it out as a broke college student, thank u very much kenji!

[@user-ei4ff9zm2f]

At nearly 8 months of pregnancy I really appreciated the excuse to make two Mac and cheese recipes. :)

[@marvymaxee]

I’ve loved Deb’s recipe for a while, but I tried yours today and it’s delicious! You’re right, they’re very different, but equally tasty and satisfying. Yours is more like the Kraft Dinner I grew up with, in colour, texture and flavour, but heaps better. Thank you! It’s nice to have two easy, quick, stovetop mac ‘n cheese recipes.

[@LisaBeatsCancer]

Yep I've been making that recipe over 30yrs. Was a single mom and evaporated milk is cheaper than regular milk! My daughters grew up on that! 👍

[@CyanPhoenix_]

I just love that chef john's "hot rue, cold milk, no lumps" is so widely known lol

[@superoldbaby]

That’s just general cooking knowledge. It isn’t original to Chef John

[@k_meleon]

It's spelled "roux"! You are right though, that chef john saying is great!

[@Belgand]

I find the real problem is that it only holds true if you use a whisk. If you don't have that hefty mechanical assistance to break things up, e.g. using a spoon, it will be lumpy.

[@squideze]

I mean it's not really rocket science, I figured this out decades ago because I'm lazy

[@JohannesWiberg]

@@superoldbaby I'm pretty sure the previous comment referred to how Kenji namedropped Chef John as the reason people know that method, not that Chef John invented it.

[@chrisva4268]

Made yours last night with a ratio 2:1 Cabot 3 year Cheddar to Cooper Sharp, with some frozen peas, dijon mustard and hot sauce to kick things up. I think the citric acid in the American-style Cooper Sharp really helped get a perfect velvety cheese sauce. Thank you Kenji for this incredibly simple framework for killer mac and cheese! Can't wait to try Deb's!

[@mrobins9645]

I understand people making a double batch in order to use the whole can of evaporated milk. Since I am cooking for one and am not wild about how this reheats: I make a single batch but substitute whole milk powder reconstituted with 60% of the water for the evaporated milk. It's easy to make any amount and I think it tastes the same.

[@mewtilation]

thank you! i never thought about doing it this way, i was gonna go out to buy some evaporated milk

[@secretcode7]

I have no strong interest in mac and cheese but I absolutely love listening to Kenji and watching him work. It's soothing, grounded, informative and refreshingly humble. Thank you so much!

[@carlyst2922]

Your mac is a staple in our household. Can’t wait to check out the pod!

[@kehtal9715]

Kenji your three ingredient mac and cheese is one of the greatest contributions to mankind of the last two hundred years. We make it at least once a month and it's just spectacular.

[@360Corentin]

I've been making your three ingredient mac and cheese for some time, my wife and I joke that she built our son out of it. I usually add mustard and garlic powder to the evaporated milk because my wife will add them after the fact if I don't. I also typically just set the amount of pasta and cheese (which I sometimes vary by mixing meltier cheeses with shaper cheeses) by the size of the evaporated milk can. Thanks very much for this recipe and for this video. I always enjoy both your recipes and your content.

[@reefultz309]

SoOo stoked!! YOUR baked mac n cheese recipe is my go to the last 2 Thanksgiving AND Easters. Gruyere, cheddar & Gouda are my cheese choices. Before I found yours it was so dry or "gritty". Now my family, especially my Dad, love it! I thank you & am so thrilled to visually experience your cooking/teaching.

[@joannasimpson4862]

This is my favourite stove top Mac and cheese of all time! My daughter and I tried dozens of recipes and could not find one that didn’t turn out at least somewhat grainy until we stumbled upon yours on the Babish channel. It was great to see you make it and talk about it. Excited to try Smitten Kitchen’s recipe too. The first episode of the podcast was great! I’d love to hear you two talk about baked mac and cheese sometime. Still haven’t found a baked one that has the nice creaminess of a stove top Mac and cheese and doesn’t have a bit of that graininess. We’ve tried lots of good ones but there is always something missing or not quite right.

[@mattbellamy-id]

Thank you for your lovely compliment. I hope my recipe was able to help you in your cooking

[@KiraRagged]

Thank you for explaining the science behind why "hot rue, cold milk, no lumps" works! I saw a discussion in Chef John's comments about why people thought it works and it turns out the going hypothesis was right.

[@nic_rios]

I listened to the podcast yesterday and loved the conversation! it also helped me realize why all of the evaporated milk-based mac and cheeses that I'd made in the past often turned out grainy (my reliance on aged cheddar). Hoping to try both of these recipes, since that love of aged cheddar could serve me well in Deb's recipe, and yours looks lovely and seems sort of "classic" tasting.

[@ThomasPopeUNC]

"Deb's on the right, or Deb's on your left, my right, I guess, and mine on your right, my left, is that right?" Pure poetry Kenji

[@chef-magoo]

OMG! Two of my favorite food people together in a podcast, I guess the only thing I could ask for was to include chef John as well. Looking forward to a lot of great podcast from both you and Deb Kenji. Great idea! 14:55

[@Errrtuhd]

Just listened to the first podcast episode! Love it! thanks so much for continuing to let us into your world ❤

[@PattiWinker]

Yum! Make them both, then layer both in a casserole dish, Kenji’s on bottom with chunks of Cheddar scattered on top, then Deb’s with Parmesan grated on top. Finish with some buttered bread crumbs and bake until bubbly and Parmesan gets golden. You could add a layer of ham or other meat, tomatoes, etc to the layers for a complete meal. This would make a great kid friendly dinner. 😁 Thanks, Kenji and Deb! p.s. I always keep evaporated milk in the house. Shelf stable and a gazillion uses! 👍

[@charmedbycharlie]

It really just comes down to one being a more "hit the spot craving" and the other being a "delicious fancied up easy dinner".

[@SneedEmFeedEm292]

kenji im in grad school for material science. a lot of the times when you're describing what's causing things to cook/form what it does with food, you sound like a material scientist. for instance when describing how the lumps form, it's very similar to some concepts in polymer science. pretty cool

[@mydogsnameisbob]

Glad to hear the first episode is out. This my be the first podcast that both my wife and I listen to.

[@godminnette2]

Back around Thanksgiving I took 6 or 7 different popular online mac n cheese recipes (including yours) and went about trying to develop my own. Eventually I landed on a variation of yours (equal parts by weight cheese, evaporated milk, and pasta), with a gouda cheddar blend, and with just a bit of boursin and/or gruyere mixed in.

[@daphne614]

Finally, a podcast I'll subscribe to. Can't wait! 👏🏼

[@teamtsn9626]

i've been making your 3 ingredient mac for a couple months now. I add a little of yellow mustard and love it.

[@Zimpfnis]

Well, that's not 3 ingredients anymore, is it? Or do you leave out one of the other ingredients? :)

[@Grayald]

​@@ZimpfnisThe mustard is just a seasoning. If you're going to count that, you have to count the salt as well.

[@mustardtigre1558]

Just hope it's Pitzman's

[@anne1k616]

Loved your new podcast this morning. I’m ready to make 3 ingredient Mac & cheese tonight, but as always I’m adding peas and a chopped up hot dog.

[@Vraimental]

Excellent first podcast episode. Look forward to many more. Congratulations!

[@LinYouToo]

I just started reading your cook science book the Food Lab and came here to learn about macaroni and cheese. thank you for your instructional video demonstration on my favorite side dish.

[@jennifergasiorowski7471]

I love your podcast! ❤ Great personalities, educational, funny but my favorite is the science to back the why's and how's of the recipe. Thanks for sharing! 😊

[@mattbellamy-id]

Thank you for your lovely compliment. I hope my recipe was able to help you in your cooking

[@chronometer9931]

I really love your use of a chest camera or ehat ever kind of camera that is. It makes for really cool shots that are a different perspective than people usually do and it lets you see more of what's going on

[@benroolz]

This mornay, pepper, Parmesan style is exactly what I came up with independently so it’s super cool seeing Kenji make it

[@illusion130]

Just made the 3-ingredient version and it was super easy and fast. I did add a bit of crisp bacon and topped with toasted panko for a bit of crunch :)

[@annestauffer9579]

Love this and loved the podcast. I will have to try both recipes now. And yes it was called Kraft Dinner (in the US) back in the day. And yes I mostly got to eat it when we were left with a babysitter.

[@mattbellamy-id]

Thank you for your lovely compliment. I hope my recipe was able to help you in your cooking

[@pacemarshall9358]

I loved the first episode of the podcast! I listened while cooking, and though I wasn't making mac n cheese, I found it nonetheless fun to pair the episode with my curry rice recipe. Excited for episode 2!

[@CassBlast5]

Mac and cheese has been my favorite food my whole life; how fun that Kenji and Deb chose to start there! Can’t wait to listen to the podcast.

[@christinar2652]

Very few ingredients, simple directions and voila! This is clean eating (all dependent on the cheese used) and not from a boxed 'dinner'. Can't wait to listen to the new podcast. Bye from Big D (Dallas, TX)!

[@scarlet2836]

I got stovetop mac and cheese nailed because of this so thank you! I did yours but with 16 oz each, added some other add-ins, and used both cheddar and Colby jack

[@ashleys637]

The 3-ingredient Mac is a go-to, but I'm going to try Deb's version tonight (using the sub of part white cheddar). Love the Smitten Kitchen blog. I haven't made a ton of Deb's recipes, but the ones I have made have been consistently tasty.

[@JerryPemberton]

2 things: 1) Chef John is the kindest man on the internet. 2) The difference between a professional chef and a home cook? Mixing in all of that cheddar cheese into the already full shallow pan was a breeze for Chef Kenji, but for me half of the cheese and somehow all of the liquid would have flown out of the bowl and onto me and the counter/burner.

[@MrK-ti5lt]

I'll def subscribe to the podcast and looking forward to it! Also, it's cool to see you cook with the PolyScience induction burner. I just used my tax return money for one and zero regrets. I didn't know you could remove the pan from the sensor in the middle to stop cooking and was always taking it completely off. First vid and I already learned something new about the equipment! Thanks J. Kenji - Great stuff as always.

[@youmatterandareloved5373]

Instantly subbed to the podcast! Keep on keeping on, brother!

[@FedericoMaracaglia]

I just made a mix of the two recipes while following along. Bechamel with parmesan and pepper with starchy pasta. Creamy and delicious, thanks for the inspiration 🫶🏻

[@ronjenkins4257]

Nice call out to Canada, KD, Kraft Dinner.

[@karenmikasko7148]

I am from Canada and KD has went down hill IMO, the noodle size went way down and there is just no flavor. I do eat the microwave ones because they are quick.

[@Kitty-no3de]

@@karenmikasko7148 dried cheese used to be above dried whey on ingredients list, now dried whey is higher. they made this change when they added the 'now cheesier' thing to the box years ago, they increased the whey and reduced the cheese but i guess the dried whey counts as cheese flavouring so they get to say its cheesier even tho it actually has less cheese!! lol

[@yogi.nat.]

Love the new podcast! So awesome there's a video for the recipes!

[@SoupyTurtle]

Literally love everything you do Kenji! ❤

[@spongea8191]

I've been doing a condensed milk version of mac and cheese for years; it's truly a velvety end product. Excited to tune into your new podcast!

[@LupusImmortalis]

Your mac and cheese are a staple in my dinner rotation. So easy and delicious.

[@kilgore_trout_37]

I have made both of these recipes and a couple of the others from both sites and they are both so great! Listening to the podcast now, but had to return to comment. TFW you find out your two (parasocial) friends are friends and it somehow just confirms your own good taste! 😂

[@kilgore_trout_37]

I’ll add - any food nerd should pick up some sodium citrate and make some mac and cheese with it but take my free advice and don’t freelance! Use a recipe and mind amounts. At least at first!

[@WastrelWay]

I use evaporated milk any time that milk is called for. I don't drink gallons of milk a week the way I used to do. It's easier to keep the cans around. But I also make a roux --> Bechamel --> Mornay for mac & cheese, using evaporated milk.I admire your tap water, Kenji, you can cook with it and it doesn't turn into limestone like the water we have here in Austin.

[@hurtado102]

excited and subscribed to the pod on spotify!

[@JDub33333]

Mac 'n Cheese is one of those comfort meals where it's always fun to slowly improve upon and try new variations. Plus, it guilt trips me into eating healthy after eating it!

[@N6gold2fire]

Just followed on Spotify! Looking forward to listening on my commute tomorrow!

[@TigrrGoesOHAI]

Love the comparison of two techniques for similar recipes, I'll definitely give both a shot!

[@marcelacecil3036]

I know it's unpopular but I love that you are trying a stationary camera. I easy get dizzy and really appreciate the steady camera. Love your recipes

[@alilleybrinker]

My wife and I love Kenji’s 3 ingredient mac and cheese recipe. We ALSO love his Food Lab multiple-pounds-of-cheese mac and cheese recipe, and make it at least once a year for the holidays!

[@rowanrobinson]

I've been making your 3 ingredient mac and cheese for a year or 2 now and the biggest thing I've learnt from it is to take it off the heat when it's still runny as it'll harden up. If you cook it until it looks like it's ready to serve it'll dry up way too much

[@dangfelton]

The Breville!! So jealous. Congrats Kenji

[@pyro3rg]

Love the video and just subbed to the pod. Not that you need help finding guests but Jean Pierre would be fun, I can listen to that man talk for hours.

[@Justin_Alfeche]

Lmao listening to the podcast and am loving how you always make sure to say "Deb" first when you say the title.

[@crackilator]

This has inspired me. I'm going to experiment with using starchy pasta water and evaporated milk in place of the sodium citrate I usually use to make "fancier" cheeses creamy and glossy. Great shit, as always.

[@EagleM16]

I listen to podcasts at work. I feel like this one is gonna make me hungry x3

[@robferrera1968]

Your version of macncheese is the only version I make. Perfect every time.

[@gregw_]

Subscribed! Can't wait to listen on my next drive.

[@Randis-vv5hg]

Looking forward to the podcast!

[@polythewicked]

Funny - growing up, the only way my mother, then I, made a bechamel is by adding cold milk all at once. I’d never heard of the hot milk method until I started watching KZbin.

[@Ravenok]

Should I expect different results if I use straight milk to cook the pasta, instead of cooking it in water and adding evaporated milk?

[@marinareis3606]

I'm also curious about this

[@katehunter538]

I like your method, Kenji. I always add powdered mustard to it though. I think it enhances the cheese flavor while disappearing into it.

[@mattbellamy-id]

Thank you for your lovely compliment. I hope my recipe was able to help you in your cooking

[@zimble]

Subbed to the podcast on Spotify. Looking forward to the episodes!

[@Meeelan]

Hi Kenji, have you tried using sodium citrate in your cheese sauce recipe for the one without roux? It lets it get a smoother texture similar to velveeta without having to use processed cheese

[@charlesball9522]

I cooked Deb's version last night; it ended up a little bit bitter tasting. What did I do wrong? Did I not let the roux cook long enough? Too long? Nothing to do with the roux? I used quality parmesan cheese, high fat content butter, freshly ground pepper, dried pasta, and whole milk.

[@Melissa_P_462]

Mmmm Cacio de Pepe Mac & Cheese.😮🎉 I adore Cacio de Pepe!! Omg Cant wait for Podcast! I love Deb Perelman! Followed her for years!!! And i like your videos! So much technique and deliciousness!

[@tsminnal]

I really miss those rustic late night cooking from the old home, barely no talks and the doggies.

[@undoubtedlyso4542]

yess man i was waiting for a video on mac thank you

[@wyldnfryd]

*singing* Six six six. The pasta of the beast! Six six six. The one for you and me!!

[@danlwarren]

Pretty sure I saw Tyler Durden at 14:12.

[@zachb_20]

I make your three-ingredient mac and cheese all the time. Sometimes I'll further enhance it with leftover roast chicken, hot sauce, and/or toasted panko.

[@markbeck8384]

You and Deb will be great together!

[@briansavery]

Listened to the podcast episode. Deb made a suggestion which I think would be a good idea: I'd love to see a "hybrid" of your recipes at least for the mac and cheese

[@maymay7910]

does anyone have a link to the pepper grinder Kenji uses? It looks so good for adding decent amounts quickly. I swear I have to twist for like 45 seconds to get that good a result

[@TennSeven]

The "three ingredient" mac and cheese has always produced a perfect batch for me; I swear by it.

[@dwaynewladyka577]

A bt of sour cream, and prepared mustard is also good in homemade macaroni and cheese.

[@Rock12402]

Sour cream sounds like a good idea! What type of mustard, though, and what does it do for the sauce?

[@dwaynewladyka577]

@Rock12402 Yellow mustard, such as French's, or Dijon mustard. It adds a slight tang to the sauce, and another contrasting flavour, which compliments the cheese really well.

[@Rock12402]

@dwaynewladyka577 interesting I had never thought to add that. I will have to give that a try. Thanks for the info!

[@dwaynewladyka577]

@Rock12402 Also, when you make your bechamel sauce, put in a little bit of fresh grated nutmeg. It's amazing. Cheers!

[@Rock12402]

@@dwaynewladyka577 Will do! Thx

[@mammoths100]

If that was me, when those cameras were turned off...I'd be mixing those two together and living my best life :)

[@karenmikasko7148]

hahha no doubt

[@qillerdaemon9331]

Damn right! Just what I was thinking. 😎

[@hannahrailsback7282]

Ooooooh. Hell yeah, bro. Count me in on that podcast!

[@davidmacpherson8710]

Someday I hope to see Kenji cook in person. I should have done so when he still lived in the San Francisco Bay Area.

[@Ryan_F.]

Chef John’s recipe just cooks the pasta in milk, which seems like a shortcut to water + evaporated milk. I make that one regularly

[@judiithingrahambrown8722]

Anyone who has been a busy, stressed mom discovers cold milk and hot rue means no lumps. You didn't have time to warm up your milk you just threw it and hope for the best discovered it worked out better than the old way.

[@mattbellamy-id]

Thank you for your lovely compliment. I hope my recipe was able to help you in your cooking

[@diedreibeiden433]

Very nice, I tried a mixture of both recipes. So the butter+flower but also a mix of normal and evaporated milk. Turns out insanely creamy :) Also multiple kinds of cheeses but that also makes it pricy :D

[@acrophobe]

Now I always use Kenji's 1 pan stovetop recipe when I make mac n cheese. Although I usually add a little bit of American cheese, Velveeta or El Mexicano canned nacho cheese to the cheese mix to get it extra smooth. Even if I'm using a fancy aged cheddar I gotta add just a little bit of garbage 🤏

[@AHeadlessChicken2008]

I was curious about your hot plate and googled it, it cost $1400 that blew my mind lol. Love your videos though keep up the amazing work.

[@ainstrument]

There's one frame of the wrong clip just after 14:11. Just FYI if your export got weird, but prob just an editing slipup.

[@graefx]

I really love your method but everytime i do it i end up with a bunch of noodles stuck to the pan if i dont baby it the entire time its boiling. But the caccio pepe flavor profile is tempting.

[@simonbackpack]

Kenji I find that Deb's recipe is better when you make bigger batches and want leftovers. The reason is because by creating the sauce separately, the cheese sauce remains separate from the macaroni. However if i didn't create a roux, I find that the leftover Mac and cheese to be flavorless -the cheese integrates into the pasta and becomes lifeless.