The Renaissance of Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition

[@bearthegenxgm]

Nenitr Vale is one of the top settings ever created. Sad that it died with 4e. :(

[@TheArtGremblin]

When 4e was in development I largely ignored it, because I was already heavily invested in 3.5e and I thought 4e was "dumbing things down". Thank goodness one of my less-enfranchised players-who didn't have endless time to invest in learning the ins and outs of 3.5, because she was busy with her medical research-convinced me to try it on the grounds that it was way more accessible. It fit perfectly with my crunch-loving, combat-loving, rules-are-tools regular group and almost instantly became my "forever" edition. Love your discussion of the "playing an elf" section. One of my all-time favourite templating choices in 4e is the "play as an x if you want..." section, which distils the core appeal of these different archetypes down into a few bullet points, and they really just nailed every one. More often I see gamebooks completely miss what I think is most appealing about their content, so having 4e express these so clearly and confidently really told me that I was dealing with an edition that knew what I wanted, and intended to give it to me. The streamlined simplicity of combat stat blocks was also a complete game-changer. Previously I'd had to literally memorise entire spell lists to run a monster correctly, because it would say "casts as a 9th-level cleric" or such. It really is nearly impossible to overstate how much more accessible GMing became in 4e. Anyway, I couldn't be happier to see more and more people realising that the narrative of 4e being a failure and "the bad edition" is (and always was) bollocks. Bring on the renaissance!

[@anndr01d65]

@@wombatgirl997 This 100%. As a player, I want to feel that the world is objective and that these things exist somewhere other than in the head of my DM. As a DM, this "make it up" approach puts A LOT on us. I realize improvisation is unavoidable, but the 5E modules give very little in the way of detail that I am either putting a ton of time into fleshing out these details (why buy a module then?) or I am improvising a large chunk of it. When I first ran a 4E module, it just came so naturally!

[@Wolfphototech]

*Please do more on D&D 4th edition .* *Such as how to keep organized , how to play , what each term means & etc .* *There really needs to be more D&D 4e content ( starting at the basics & up ) .*

[@youbetternot369]

I’m a little late to this party, “pun intended” but this still holds true today. I’m not playing 4e but I use many elements from it and hybrid 4e with 5e. My kids love it.

[@finalshade14]

Glad more people are enjoying this awesome edition

[@MrJTL1984]

This was the edition I began with, and it's been a breath of fresh air returning to it. I've become really disenchanted with 5e's core game, and I'm 100% in love exploring the Nentir setting with a really great group once again.

[@waldoxavier1074]

I enjoyed 4e and I think in many ways is even better than 5e. I know I said it LOL

[@SerithValComnion]

I mean, yeah. 5e kinda sucks

[@gloomish5120]

I think it's better than other editions of the game, including pathfinder.

[@michaellinke6448]

The most perplexing thing about the people who hated 4e is that all of their arguments against it were completely 100% wrong. As you pointed out, it had the best support for non-combat roleplay of any edition even while it was criticized for removing non-combat roleplay from the game. My biggest gripe with 4e was WotC's obsession with game balance during its lifespan, and the constant errata they kept putting out to tweak powers and rules, and I think the death of 4e had more to do with the time and effort spent on that errata, and moving toward a new design philosophy that reduced the chance of producing content in need of errata, rather than the system being unpopular or a marketing failure (it was objectively NOT a marketing failure).

[@michaellinke6448]

A second problem is not really a problem with the rules system, but the Dungeon Masters Guide for 4e only really told the DM how to prepare one session in advance, and didn't have much guidance on pre-creating a campaign world in a sandbox style. I think this is because it was assumed seasoned DMs would look back at past editions of the DMG for evergreen advice like that. The 4e DMG only dealt with stuff that wasn't well explained in past editions, and stuff that was unique to the new edition. Later, we'd get the Neverwinter campaign setting for 4e which was a working example of a sandbox style setting in 4e, but it arrived at a point when gamers had already formed their strong opinions about 4e.

[@pdunwin]

There was a lot of errata, it's true. However, a lot of it was pretty minor or was to clarify things that functioned as loopholes, and wasn't really necessary for players who weren't looking for loopholes. By and large, I'd play the game as printed today, without concern. In contrast, pre-3.5 games have much less official errata than they could use and 3.5 had tons of clarifications that actually didn't completely fix the problems with, for example, polymorph.

[@ariusdegaldri2413]

Our group never really stopped playing it. We switched to 4e from 3.5 as soon as it came out, and we still have 2 4e campaigns going at the moment. We've moved on to other systems as well, but since everyone in our group also DMs their own game, we get some variety. I'm actually DMing a 4e campaign in my homebrew world right now, and we're nearing the end of Paragon Tier play.

[@VirtualAdept777]

I love 4e.

[@pdunwin]

Good stuff, First Age. I started with BECMI, and played 2nd and 3.5. 4th Edition is the one that I felt let me be, if I wanted, the fellow in the Elmore painting on the front of the Mentzer Red Box. I'm glad 5th Edition has made D&D as a whole more popular, and I'm glad that it looks like it's also encouraging people to look at 4th Edition again. Looking forward to more videos.

[@Jabberwokee]

Excellent to see more people talking about my favorite version of D&D Our groups been playing for years and, sure, we’ve made some modifications for our home game but at its core our game is 4e and I love it for that

[@stordarth]

I never moved to 5e once I settled into 4e. Bounded accuracy was a huge turn off. I have come to tweak 4e with some of 5e's rules, as no version is perfect, but I've found that a smattering of 5e gives 4e a little more spice. Specifically, bringing over the advantage system, standing from prone being only half movement instead of the entire move action, and a version of the disengage action. Really opens up some new tactical opportunities.

[@pdunwin]

I have to admit that I like the "reload" trait for weapons in 5th Edition. Certain classes would have to be able to ignore it, though.

[@MikeonMinecraft]

4th never got a fair shake. its a good system, i really liked it

[@Latino-Gamer]

Always great to hear someone talking about my favorite edition. :-)

[@dmzedd6990]

Phenomenal job presenting 4th edition in a way that really highlights it's strengths but also honest about its shortcomings. Aside from 2nd edition (which may be nostalgia as I grew up on 2e), 4th edition is my preferred edition of Dungeons & Dragons.

[@rolistespod]

Great video. Great to hear of a growing number of people flying the colours of 4e.

[@Since1845]

I ❤ 4th Edition

[@ClockworkBard]

I'm really glad to see 4e maintain a legacy. I'm running 5e now because it's the right thing for the group I have now, but 4e still influences how I run it. I spice up monsters with 4e concepts, because that design philosophy was so inspired. I draw on my back knowledge of 4e rules when 5e rules get wishy-washy, because a lot of it was well thought out. It got so much right for what it wanted to be. It'll always have a place in my heart.

[@SerithValComnion]

Not a big fan of 4e myself, but it is where i got my start and it does have a lot of interesting ideas in it

[@kennymahan9354]

Thanks for this.

[@ChantMacleod]

THANK YOU for discouraging Version Wars. There's plenty of fun to be had with any edition one might have on hand!

[@ChromeDragonBastion]

I enjoyed 4E a lot and loved the Nentir Vale. Also the Ritual Magic allowed for so much more then 5E.

[@jameskyle7943]

I like 4E in the context of the extremely streamlined 4E inspired ruleset for all the D&D Adventure Board games. The At Will/Utility/Daily Power system is great for this. One thing I did really like in 4E was the monster stats, where they gave you a limited set of powers to use and what they did, instead of the long list of spells/feats you might see in other editions.

[@benpuffer7891]

4e got short changed.

[@ScrivenerofDoom]

For those who want to get back into 4E, like about 700 people since I first posted this, I do recommend checking out this thread at the Reddit 4E group.

[@ScrivenerofDoom]

Hmmm, it didn't post the link but it's the second stickied link in the 4E group on Reddit. Enjoy!

[@Trenell83]

One thing I will stand by is the 4th edition Dungeon Master Guide 2 is one of the best dungeon Master's Guide in tabletop period in my opinion.

[@johnschwartz1641]

Just ran through Keep on the Shadowfell with my brother and his kids a few months ago. My biggest beef with the edition in the old days was the slow pace from doing everything by hand. With VTT the game really shines.

[@nubrandgamingvenue]

I love this addition to 4e support! :) Great job!

[@nicklarocco4178]

4e is my favorite edition of d&d, and probably my favorite rpg. I've never had such great games as I have playing 4e, and I've been lucky enough to find a group who are interested in playing it. I'm glad to hear it's gaining traction again because I think most people who would really like 4e never tried it because it got so much undeserved hate during it's heyday.

[@deathmetalbard]

It's nice to see someone who doesn't just trash 4e cause it's cool. I'm a major fan of 13th age which shares alot of 4e.

[@pavelurteaga5315]

d&d 4e is the perfect environment for tactical combat

[@pdunwin]

And it brought in skill challenges, which made non-combat encounters worth involving the whole party in, not just the guy with thievery skills, interpersonal skills or knowledge skills.

[@graveyardshift2100]

Most people's complaints about 4e are pretty easily dismissed. I've seen so many comments about the grid based combat, and it's so dumb because most people already play on grids anyway and you don't actually need one if you don't want to use it.

The best system ever :-)

[@hugodlr]

Thank you :) This is still my favorite edition to both play and DM

[@sheldoncarpenter6291]

Thanks very much! Playtesting 4e got me back into D&D and enjoying it. It was hard to find people to convince to play it.

[@lbwstrategygaming]

we are going back to 4E, my favorite so far of all time.

[@rebb00]

You are an absolute chad still playing fourth today! Truly inspiring

[@tobiashahnen6161]

Damn Sir, thank you for this video! I always wanted to know why playing 4e cna be good while I only found videos of lads bashing it and mentioning why and where 5e is better! And I always found 5e early game horrible for level 1-3 being mostly useless and professionals just skipping them -.- Regarding combat. My first encounter was years ago with 4e and virtual battle maps. But slaying those monsters was really nice, I had a lot of fun. Nowadays I often have the feeling with 5e whenever a battle starts "Just lets get over it" which is kind of sad :( also this nice tilesets for 4e - infinite possibilities paired with nice strategic battles. I'd like to play it once again! Now I really understand why there is this minority enjoing 4e. Very sad that I found out about DnD so late and played 4e just once (I think 2-3 sessions) and then switched to 5e the next time I played it years later. Maybe I'm going to go and search a group for post-corona even for only one game of 4e but hopefully more. Again, thank you!

[@darkjackl999]

Honestly loved 4e (even if sorcerer got 0 class specific epic destinys but wizard got like fuckin 5) I find that the biggest problem with the combat going so long is simply because of people not pre planning their turn/knowing their abilities, that always drags combat on no matter the edition The monster blocks were top tier It also helps that ranger and sorcerer were really good (my 2 favorite classes)

[@randomusernameCallin]

I love role-playing through the gameplay. 4e allows that so much. Even after picking your class, you have more detailed options. 5e the class does not offer much but large branches to follow. The main weakness of 4e is the skills system.

[@joanmoriarity8738]

I'm curious, what were your criticisms of the 4E skills system? While I really didn't care for the mechanism of "skill challenges", I thought the basic skill system in 4E was just fine, certainly no worse than any other edition of D&D. Though if I ran a 4E game today I would probably steal the backgrounds system from 13th Age.

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@joanmoriarity8738 The number of skillls covered too much. You can not make a ranger that is good at traps without making him also good at pickpocketing. Most use a skill can easily be just a roll play style. One a side note, I hate mixing role-playing by pretend and role-playing through the gameplay.

[@joanmoriarity8738]

@@randomusernameCallin It's a difficult tightrope isn't it, between having too many skills and too few. You're not wrong about the thievery skill, but then again, 3E had so many separate skills for balance and acrobatics and swimming and underwater basket-weaving, it felt impossible to build a character with a well- rounded skill set, who actually felt competent in play. Another reason to steal 13A's background system.

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@joanmoriarity8738 That is true. I hate the whole background ideal with a passion.

[@joanmoriarity8738]

@@randomusernameCallin How come? It allows you to build a character with a skill set that makes sense, without any need for a delineated list of things you can be good at and bad at. I thought it was the perfect solution.

[@nubrandgamingvenue]

I too think it’s brilliant for tabletop settings. :)

[@fadeleaf845]

I never felt that enemy HP was too much in 4th Edition just because enemies could consistently survive long enough to do anything at all.

[@ZaWyvern]

I'm running 5e for the first time after playing for a while and GMing other systems, mainly Savage Worlds. I've played DnD for decades on and off and I don't know why, but I find 5e a hollow experience. As a player I just wrote it off at maybe not being my cup of tea. But with DMing it now as well, that's where I'm at. I didn't get to play 4e so much, maybe a couple dozen times but my memory of it and going back and looking through the core books I feel it was a better psi experience for me. I run my games on foundry, I think I'm going to switch to 4e once I get through the current campaign... I actually took the Orcs of Stonefang Pass and converted it to 5e, so my players will be playing 4e without knowing. I also think 4e probably suits VTT a bit better, especially one like foundry.

[@furious5009]

>b-b-bb-but it’s not DnD!!!111! Yes. That’s why it’s good.

[@joanmoriarity8738]

4E is a fantastic system for DMs. If I were going to run a D&D campaign today, it would have to be either 4E or BX. The one weak point for me was the skill challenges. I tried and tried to make them work well and I just couldn't do it. The solution was simple though: just don't use them. 4E's skill system, while not as robust as the wonderful backgrounds system of 13th Age, is at least as good as any other edition of D&D, and much better than most. One often overlooked marvel of 4E was its cosmology, which I found to be the best of any edition. It allows for fairly low-level PCs to travel to the near planes like the Feywild and the Shadowfell, while higher-level types can travel to the Astral Sea, and very powerful PCs can brave the Elemental Chaos. And if you ever want to get someone to a place that would otherwise be inaccessible, the city of Sigil makes a perfect contrivance to get them there.

[@pdunwin]

Good point about the cosmology; I really liked it too. If you don't like or need skill challenges, yeah don't use them. I play in First Age's game and he doesn't use them much. I like them because I never really understood how to handle skill situations as a DM: what DC to use, how many checks of what kind to use, when to declare failure, and how to reward XP. The 4th Edition DMG also taught me how to handle failure better, not making it a dead end.

[@DAMitAlI]

I enjoyed 4e. Couldn’t play much of it unfortunately. I was in high school with no money when it released. When I had money I was in the army and nobody wanted to play so I didn’t buy the books. When I got out of the army 5e just released. I had the money to buy 5e books. I’m going back and looking at 4e to see what I missed.

[@pdunwin]

Have you had a chance to try it. Let me know and I can try to get an online game set up.

[@jackshiltsov2242]

Viva la revolution! I mean, it is about time to break this stigma on the 4th edition.

[@buddabudda]

I love 4e, but the 2 hour combats really are what almost broke my group at the time. Ended up switching to this amazing formula for monster hp and damage that someone had come up with online the game improved so much. Only problem is that I was looking through my old 4e stuff because I'm thinking of getting a new campaign going, but for some reason I only have the system written down up to level 15! So at some point I'll have to sit down and spend ages trying to recreate his system up to 30. Not looking forward to that, but it should be worth it.

[@GrahamSpearing]

Sounds interesting and there are many ways to manage the HP thing. Hope you get to publish the first 15 anyway to get it out there.

[@buddabudda]

​@@GrahamSpearing Finally getting a new 4e campaign starting(stupid covid) and while prepping I remembered this video from like a year ago. Turns out that damage chart is actually still online and I managed to find it! Level 1 equivalent damage it's apparently referred to. dmg42.blogspot.com/2012/02/boot-on-face-of-level-1-damage-forever.html I combine that with a new monster hp chart which I can't seem to find, but I do have written down. A lot of people talk about halving monster hps, but this goes way beyond that. Like at level 7 or so when my old game from years ago first started to fall apart do to long combats, average monster hps go from around 74 down to 31. The higher the level, the more intense. So an average monster hp at level 20 would be around 181, and with this it would drop to 52. It all just works great. A level 7 Young Red Dragon's breath doing 1d12+4 isn't gonna scare anyone, but 4d8+12 is pretty nasty. But 132 hp instead of 332 makes up for it. Again, it only gets more intense as you go along. 1,050 hp for a level 22 Elder Red Dragon is just a slog, whereas 365 is much more reasonable, but good lord, taking the breath weapon from 3d12+8 to 5d20+20 is terrifying and a great way to get a big ol' "What the fuck was that???" from the players. Those examples were MM1 stats, and I know they updated them later with less hp and more damage, but it just didn't go far enough I feel. When a giant red dragon breaths fire on you, you should feel like you're all going to die, not "Huh, if he does that again in the next couple rounds we may just need to heal." I just love the way it plays so much better. No being able to scout hps like 4 rounds ahead to figure whether or not you're winning. Every round feels dangerous, like it should be(unless your purposefully throwing a low-lethality fight at them). Every big hit has players reeling and panicking over how to react, but it makes up for it when the rogue crits a stealth attack and takes a guy down in one hit from full health. No more spending an hour and half thwacking each other with nerf bats after every player and monster used up their encounter powers like a third into the battle without anyone even getting bloodied. Small bonus damage means so much more! An extra 2 damage on the attack? The thing has 100 hp, who would even notice? Well, lower those hps down to 35 and suddenly plus 2 feels great! Anyway, sorry for the book-length reply on a year old post, but felt great to randomly be to able to track that chart down again and the first thing I thought of was this.

[@Crushanator1]

I feel like if you want to play D&D, people should either play a modern OSR style game using a sandbox and theater of the mind, or a story driven 4E game with interesting set piece combat encounters. Anything else just feels worse than one of those two options imho. Certainly, those two choices have pros and cons, but they're almost two different tools in the tool box, and it really depends on what your table wants to do.

[@pdunwin]

I use "theater of the mind" with 4th Edition and it works fine. Not identically as with a map, but by and large the same.

[@TrackerRoo]

Been playing 4e since the beginning. I prefer it to 5th and Pathfinder. It just did so many things well that were lacking with 3.5.

[@errantknight-f2z]

The artwork is nice.

[@simontmn]

Nice refresher! :)

[@stevekeyD9Games]

My favorite edition !!!

[@Sage2000]

Oh, Have DMing for 3 decades and its my favorite edition. The balance, the way they dealt with magic rituals, and its easy to decide what your players can have access to and what exists within your universe. Only flaw I see are those powers that depend on attacks to do something cool. For example, you can teleport a short distance by attacking someone, but cant spontaneously teleport.

[@pdunwin]

I tend to agree with you on that last point. I wonder what would happen if we made rider effects like that more generally available. With encounter and daily powers I don't think there's much downside to just letting the extra stuff get used, since it's limited.

[@Sage2000]

@@pdunwin Indeed. I have see very stupid things like people attacking walls and trees to create the rider effect.

[@Arnsteel634]

4E is the edition that broke my heart. I went back to 2E and PF because of it. It was the anti-D&D to me that did not even resemble the game. I’m now pretty much OSR and OSE now. But when gamma world came out using the 4E engine I gained some respect for the system as I did enjoy it. But I still don’t like it at all for d&d. But too each their own.

[@kyrnsword72]

D&D 4e interests me but I Love D100 DUNGEON MAPPING GAME!

[@trebormills]

I skipped 4e, it was a bit heroic for me and seemed heavy on maps and minis. having read up on it I acquired a load of books recently as it is a solid ruleset. As part of my dnd coverage I will look at it in about 4 vids time

[@randomusernameCallin]

I try to get a map and Minis as much as I can. positioning is one of the few role playing element that is independent of dice roles.

[@pdunwin]

Maps and minis aren't as required as most people seem to think. They're useful for complicated scenes, but complexity isn't required.

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@pdunwin The problem when you remove maps and minis you also removing positioning which is a huge non-rng element that can be there to roleplay.

[@pdunwin]

@@randomusernameCallin You don't remove it entirely. In a simple scene, it's not hard to get a sense where people are. Lots and lots of fights consist of people standing in one place anyway. I won't say there aren't trade-offs, and I didn't say there weren't trade-offs, but it's not all or nothing.

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@pdunwin The problem is when a character can only attack in combat then I become more of a roll play game much like the talking aspect.

[@erickling4016]

Thanks for the video. I played 4e for several years and moved to Pathfinder because group reasons. I recently pulled my books out and went through them and remember good times. I recall the digital tools for 4e being helpful, but I know support by WoTC ended in January 2020. Anyone know of tools currently available from third party?

[@pdunwin]

There's a 4th Edition Discord that can offer resources. Sorry, I don't have a link.

[@ScrivenerofDoom]

Besides the Discord, there is a stickied link on the 4E Reddit with instructions - basically email me, and get the tools.

[@shockrobin5000]

A little late of a reply, but dnd session assistant works well as well.

[@pdunwin]

@@shockrobin5000 I didn't know about this, I'll check it out.

[@DoveArrow]

As a DM, I loved 4e. I loved that I could adjust stat blocks up and down, that I could adjust the DC for poison up and down, that I was no longer limited to adding tons of class levels and magic items to creatures to make them interesting, that the DMG had so much great advice for new DMs, that it was easy to create new monsters, and of course skill challenges. As a player, though, I loathed 4e. The PHB didn't include some of the most iconic player races (I believe some of the most iconic classes were missing too), it took me forever to figure out what W meant, the rules expected players to use their combat and daily powers but many new players I gamed with would get stuck on simply using their at-will powers over and over, and characters honestly had way too many options to choose from leading many players to feel overloaded. That last point is key. I remember a designer of the game mentioned on a discussion board is that if you looked at the classes from 3.5 on a difficulty scale from easiest class to play (barbarian or fighter) to most complicated class to play (druid), it might look something like this: |-----------------------| 4e took that difficulty scale and did this. ------|-----------|------ No class in 4e was as complicated as the most complicated class in 3.5, but all classes were more complicated than the simplest class. And that created a barrier for new players trying to get into the game. And that was a problem. Personally, I played in two 4e games. Both games ended prematurely because the players weren't having fun.

[@pdunwin]

It's true that 4th Edition didn't do a good job of accounting for different approaches to and preferences regarding complexity, in their effort to make all choices equally effective. That puts a lot of effort on the DM to help players ease into the complexity. The Essentials line helped a bit, but too late. 5th Edition does a better job of offering a range of complexities, but from what I see the balance really suffers, since those who enjoy complexity can do more.

[@lostemoman]

I really wanted to play 4e but the group I was I They said I don't want to run it but I'll play it.

[@GrahamSpearing]

It can be a little more difficult to find 4e games, but they are out there if you are prepared to move out of your circle. Hope you get to play in one! :-)

[@yellowpetelol6417]

For anyone who also happens to also know PF2e, what would you say are the most notable differences between that and DnD 4e?

[@GrahamSpearing]

Both heroic fantasy. PF2e has classic spell lists, a simple 3 action economy, 3e style increases every level, giving higher numbers. I play both on a grid.

[@jdriele]

I would like to do the same kind of video but in french. Any advice ?

[@GrahamSpearing]

I used OBS for streaming and cut up the scenes from images. It took me a bit of tmie to put it together but not too long. I'd love to see your video when released!

[@Manweor]

I think the great errors of 4th editions were mostly 2: 1 - Horrible, HORRIBLE handling of magic items. 2 - immersion-breaking descriptions of some spells and abilities (like abilities that only work in combat) 3 - the minion/boss system was, again, immersion breaking. It worked from a mechanical and encounter building perspective but it felt just too immersion-breaking to us old nerds. We all laughed at this edition mostly for these reasons. And it's a pity because with some modding it could have been a great experience, but we ended up running just a couple short adventures with a very biased viewpoint

[@GrahamSpearing]

It just goes to show and it is OK that not every game is for everyone. We haven't found any of the three aspects you mention immersion breaking, any more than other aspects of dragon game design. But that's it in a nutshell, and why I endorse and encourage all editions, because as much as I might struggle to go back to 1e, I know that there are folks out there that love it. Biased is fine, and if you have an edition that you love already, then rock on! I'll keep promoting 4e, as it really works for me, and there might be people out there that would value giving it a go. :-)

[@Sage2000]

Could you guys share your sources of materials for 4th edition? Its so difficult to find it online.

[@GrahamSpearing]

There is a terrific summary of online resouces at the D&D 4e Discord server. Do you need some linkage?

[@MericWolf]

@@GrahamSpearing I would certainly need some linkage, if you would be so kind.

[@GrahamSpearing]

@@MericWolf discord.gg/XBk8fb3v

[@Jeff-ne1lh]

4th edition when D&D wasn't ruled by a bunch of Hollywood thespian gamers

[@ascap21]

How fast is your character level gain your games?

[@GrahamSpearing]

We've just hit level 3 after 9 sessions of fairly intense play. I'm using straight XP progression rather than milestone, as much as a thought experiment as anything else. So far that feels about right, as they get just enough time to settle in to what they can do, whilst striving for that next increment.

[@ascap21]

@@GrahamSpearing is there a preferred number of players for 4e?

[@GrahamSpearing]

@@ascap21 I'm running with 5 players (online) and that feels about right, which is probably no different from most other D&Ds. Five is probably top end for online, though I have run for 6 (Traveller).

[@hugodlr]

In the game I run (almost weekly for about 2 hours each) I level the players about once every 4-6 weeks depending on where the story is (currently running modified Revenge of the Giants). I enjoy not having to track XP this way :)

[@hugodlr]

@@ascap21 4-5 is usually good - right now I've got 5-7 depending on their availability, which is stretching it a bit for online play, but still doable

[@johnwhite2412]

For on-line play, what VTT are you using? Do you actually program powers into the VTT? What about digital character building? Is it still supported by WOTC?

[@GrahamSpearing]

I'm using Role VTT www.playrole.com/ - all sheets are built by users without programming. The powers are added by hand and not into a reproducable library. It works up to a fashion and their are improvements coming over the summer. The offline character builder is still available in places, but is not offically supported by WOTC. I think all official support has been taken down.

[@cheezeofages]

If anyone is looking for a newer game that has some similarities to 4e, Pathfinder 2e shares several writers with 4e and its feat system is a lot like a refined version of powers. Also has tons of content output and is free online via its Open Game License and on the official srd at Archives of Nethys. Personally I was a big fan of 4e, my only problem being that combat took a huge amount of time sometimes. Tweak that as DM and it's marvelous.

[@GrahamSpearing]

Ha, I'm also running Pathfinder 2e, another tremendous game, and as you say with some cross overs in feel thanks to Feats-Powers. PF2e plays out somewhat differently, and especially with the magic system, cleaves more closely to the 3.0 base. (I'm looking forward to the imminent release of Secrets of Magic.)

[@joanmoriarity8738]

@@GrahamSpearing As others have mentioned, 13th Age is also worth a look for fans of 4E. Imagine a cross between 4E and a character-driven indie RPG. Fun stuff!

[@Tysto]

I stopped playing many years ago with 2e. Now I’ve looked at 5e & 4e (as well as Pathfinder & a bunch of OSR games) & i find a lot to like but also a lot that make them unlikely I’d ever play them. 5e is quite messy, & 4e is shockingly the opposite. It's bizarre. 30 levels? Every class advances exactly the same way at the same time? Detailed tactical combat, which i can only imagine is slow as molasses. Good grief! I think i would play 5e with some home brew alterations, but I’d never dare mod 4e, with its computer precision. I think I’d rather take lessons from both & add feats (and cleaned up mechanics) to 2e to make fighters more fun. But I’d also take some lessons from Dungeon Crawl Classics & a couple others.

[@pdunwin]

Combat is as slow or fast as people want. It takes practice and understanding, like anything else.

[@doomhippie6673]

I have always wondered why people would want to be heroes at level one. That to me sounds like "why would I even start playing if I already was a hero?". D&D 4e was actually what made me almost quit role-playing. It was just too tactical that it felt like playing a computer game rather than a ttrpg. At least it made me try a lot of other games. But of course, if you enjoy the game, do so and I'm happy for you.

[@pdunwin]

Some see it as being a hero, others see it as simply being capable, and representing your class and character. A wizard should always be magical. A fighter should always be ale to defend their allies. A cleric should always be able to channel the divine. 4th Edition made standard what many people had been doing already: starting adventures at a level where everyone could do cool stuff. There's more to being a hero than just capability. Do you stop playing a character once they're a "hero"?

[@Jeremy_Fisher]

I HATE 4TH EDITION. But I'm trying to get over my prejudice for it. 4e was my first edition I tried to learn. I found it to be an absolute nightmare to learn and nearly quit RPGs forever. Now that it's been 10+ years and I have loads of experience with a wide variety of games I have the masochistic urge to try it out again and see if it really was as terrible as I remember.

[@GrahamSpearing]

This video is a celebration of 4e and all the many good things about it. There are many for whom this is, hands down, their favourite edition of this style of game. It isn't for everyone though, and I suggest, unless you can go in with an open mind, you focus on celebrating the games that you really enjoy. Life is short, do what gives you joy in this hobby. Up to you of course, and wish you well if you dip your toe in again.

[@pdunwin]

Yeah, take another look. I've done that with games I started on and left behind and have sometimes found things I completely missed or misunderstood before.

[@carlwoods4564]

Imo 4e is perfect for Solo play. Solo D&D is obviously lacking in he role play aspect. The tactical combat in 4e is perfect for the solo player as it gives the game a focus and creates interest and tension. I ran Lost Mines of Phandelver Solo, with 5e, its a good adventure but I found combat in 5e very dry, boring and lacking in any real depth or choices/options. You swing, the monster swings..rinse...repeat. It lacked any flavour. D&D 4e all the way for me. 👍