The Repositioning Problem | Hollow Knight

[@n7x]

This is why I find pure vessel so fun, all his attacks are telegraphed and there’s no random bs. Traitor lord hits me more than pure vessel because of his readjustment. He just walks into me even though I’m prepared to use my shade cloak to go through his dash

[@the_holland]

I absolutely love Pure Vessel too for that reason!

[@whyger7259]

Yo same, although I have spend countless hours fighting that boss and he does have 1 rare move that's a bit unpredictable. I don't know how to explain it but what it does is that it leaps forward to perform the sword pillar attack but instead no pillars come up and it doesn't target you but an area near you unlike when it actually does the sword pillar attack. It's so rare though it has happened like 7 times out the 700 I have fought it.

[@Some_guy_iguess]

"I'm not afraid of you, come here!" *walks slowly* AHHHHHH! MY BODY!

[@alphathewolf583]

I mean, traitor lord is crazy predicatable as long as you stay with them, shadow dash through their dash, turn around and catch up with their jump, and back away a little to shadow dash the shockwave. He will never throw scythes at close range and staying in his face the whole fight basically ensures you control his positioning as he also won't reposition at that range outside of his jump based attack which is telegraphed.

[@the_holland]

@ I agree! I think Traitor Lord is actually one of the better bosses when it comes to repositioning :)

[@rusteth_art]

As someone who has beaten all bosses on radiant and completed all pantheon bindings, this is a very good point to bring up. Many of the deaths I experienced were just from a boss leaping across the room. All of those shuddering at the thought of Hollow Knight being criticized and calling it another problem that you should just learn don’t seem to realize that it is very unsatisfying to die because a boss decided they wanted to be at the other end of the room. It’s a miserable feeling that makes the boss an unpleasant experience. You two points at 5:05 are right on point: repositioning moves are extremely annoying and limit the movement of the player. Pure Vessel for example, (the best boss in the game in my opinion) every time I die to him, it feels fair, like it was my mistake that made me fail to such a strong opponent. That is because his repositioning move is much more fair. Whenever he teleports, he clearly signifies what attack he’s going to do, even when he’s off-screen you know he’s going to throw knives. His ground pound attack even provides room for players to increase their mobility, as you can pogo on him if you’re skilled enough while he stands in place. That is just good boss design, and I can say the same for NKG and radiance, who are coincidentally the “big three” for Hollow Knight bosses. I feel like combining your 3rd and 4th solutions are the best answer to these problems. A very good and well-thought-out video, don’t listen to the haters.

[@the_holland]

I'm completely blown away. Your comment feels like something I'd create a secondary account to write myself - I agree with *everything* you're saying. And I'm so glad you decided to voice your opinion even though a lot of people here seem to see the issue differently than we do. I love Pure Vessel. He's one of my favourites too. And although I think the three horsemen have just a few minor problems each, I agree with you that they're all very well designed and some of the best fights in the game. Thank you again for commenting. I'm so glad you did.

[@Teleius]

That's exactly why beating GPZ feels so inconsistent (at least for me). His jump and slam attack and his teleport and slam is mostly the cause for my deaths to him, as they don't have a clear indication of where he's landing, and the best way to live through those attacks are through I-frames like shade cloak and descending dark.

[@superautopenguin2877]

The only problem I have with pure vessel is when it staggers and the stagger falling into you causes you to take damage… many a radiant have been lost to this

[@rusteth_art]

@superautopenguin2877 I do agree, Pure Vessel isn’t perfect. That’s just a problem I have with hitboxes, especially when a boss is staggered. Getting damaged there implies that the Knight is just fragile, which I especially don’t buy when walking past a small staggered Sly. Maybe Silksong will change it though.

[@PhantomInfinity]

if repositioning was indicated, it'd be way too easy to just pogo on a boss until it dies.

[@the_holland]

Perhaps, although I still find enemies like the Mantis Warrior quite hard to pogo, even though it does have a brief telegraph before attacking. Thanks for the comment!

[@theinkingskeletonsmess]

​@the_holland that's because they're always changing where they are and it's harder to pogo on them when they're in the wall

[@the_holland]

@ Oh no, I was thinking about the Warriors, not the Youth. The Warriors are the big ones that walk around :)

[@PhantomInfinity]

@the_holland it really depends on the enemy, anything that doesn't have a good upwards attack, doesn't teleport, and either has no repositioning or has well indicated repositioning is super easy to pogo on. (for example, god tamer or winged fool or like half of the enemies in the colosseum)

[@the_holland]

@ True, but those that need upward slashes could just get them (in the perfect world). Also, do you think God Tamer or Winged Fool need anti-pogo'ing measures?

[@Teleius]

4:04 "creates a feeling of you dancing with the boss" *radiant NKG trauma insues*

[@the_holland]

*404 sanity not found* I'm so sorry, man...

[@эс_хамстер]

This is not even only hollow knight issue, it applies for some other games as well.

[@the_holland]

That doesn't surprise me!

[@Themischievousmuffin]

This was such an annoyance for me when I was learning bosses lol, it felt so unfair when I died to it

[@the_holland]

Oh I'm so glad your agree 😅

[@Kitsunary]

As someone who has recently started doing all the radiant fights, the worst feeling is when a boss is technically easy, but repositions in a way that can feel unfair. No Eyes is an easy fight. The "attacks" are easy to dodge and all you have to do is wait for a good spot to hit the boss, then wait again. However, it doesn't feel fair to have the boss teleport right on top of me because I was attacking the spot it just was to the left of it. At the very least, I don't think it should be able to teleport to the same relative location in the arena since there's not enough warning to move away if you were just attacking it. I know it can be mitigated by attacking one at a time, but it's a boring enough fight as is.

[@the_holland]

Definitely agree with that :)

[@emericgent5106]

I think your change (adding telegraph to the reposiotionning) would make the air a too safe zone, and most of the fights would feel the same (staying in the air, pogoing) and easier, which in my opinion would make the game less fun, because with how it is, each boss feels different because you have to dodge the attacks in a different way for each boss

[@the_holland]

That's a good point, Emeric - you'd definitely have to make sure that each boss still felt different. But I think they already would if you implemented proper telegraphs. Think of Broken Vessel's Smash. Or Hornet's Aerial Lunge. Both of these, even if you are in the air, require you to react in two separate ways to avoid getting hit. Definitely an important point to bring up, though!

[@infinityc2859]

I feel like this problem would be better to address on a case-by-case basis instead of needing to be corrected everywhere. By that I mean that positioning moves (and similar cases) act as important limiters of player movement, which while that seems to be a bad thing, it is crucial to prevent rewarding a reckless attack. Without this limitation, it would be far too easy to exploit a specific safe position for attacking bosses (such as endless pogoing on a boss out of reach). The key here is to work out which positioning moves become problematic when the player is not positioned recklessly (such as broken vessel's jump that will hit players who are trying to actively trying to respect the boss's space when there is no open window to safely attack).

[@the_holland]

I see your point, and although I'm probably less okay with repositioning moves in general than you seem to be, what you're saying is intelligent and makes sense :) Thanks for the comment!

[@jBM7420]

if i had a nickel for every time broken vessel/lost kin jumped on me instead of doing a ground pound like i thought it would, or when hornet did a straight up fighting game anti anti air with her stalling mid air when i thought she WOULD reposition, i could buy another 2 copies of hollow knight

[@the_holland]

XD Hear, hear!

[@alexskv4644]

As long a reposition move is predictable enough to be consistent or slow enough to react to. Then its fair. But bosses like lost kin are literally quantum computers that predict you 10 years into the future. Thats when it gets really fucking annoying

[@the_holland]

Yeeeep

[@ThisDude-gp8mc]

I agree that repositioning is just the same as an attack, I see where you’re coming from. But being able to pogo every boss is a problem in itself. You will have a harder time learning how to fight through the opponents attacks and where to go while also limiting your play style and combat abilities. I see what you mean and I agree to a degree. But Team Cherry intended you to play through bosses, not over them.

[@the_holland]

I think that all makes total sense! But couldn't the boss counter pogoing in other ways? Kind of like how the Mantis Warriors can swipe upwards if you're above them!

[@me_is_alex]

So like new idea just popped into mind... what if instead of throwing a ball of silk to telegraph the repositioning of Hornet, something like she throws her needle, it sticks in the ground, and she jumps over to it

[@the_holland]

Sure! That's a great idea

[@me_is_alex]

@the_holland thanks

[@Nimajneb406]

I was thinking that it could be one where she throws her needle then hops into the air and at her apex zips to the needle. Players can learn what that jump looks like while it also adds a sort of dash movement to the jump

[@Kai-tu7xw]

Very true! It's unsatisfying mechanically when the answer for avoiding the attack is "don't stand there", with no room to actually avoid it. It's shocking how many of the commenters seem to have simply not watched the video, considering how frequently you clarify your points in regard to boss design. I really do wish that many bosses had better telegraphs for things like jumps or even teleports. Mantis Lords is a terrific boss (I'd say), but it can often be unwise to stand near the edges of the arena - simply because one of the lords might choose to start their sideways stabbing attack there, hitting you as it appears. Sure, you can avoid the damage by simply "not standing there" - but that's sad, and makes the fight just a tiny bit slower.

[@the_holland]

Wow, really glad you chose to write this comment. It means so much to me when, as you say, so many people don't seem to see the issue like we do. I'd say you're spot on about Mantis Lords! They're pretty darn good about fair repositioning - uuuntil you go to the edge of the arena (or jump too high), and then they can just kind of *spawn* on you. Thanks again for the comment! ❤️

[@Amoongus]

Big agree on repositioning moves being attacks and it possibly being an issue for enemies/bosses; I playtest a game (not as a job fyi) and this point of repositioning being annoying when the enemy has a collision was something that was brough up a few times *But, I would disagree that it is always an issue. Imo the final solution would make Hollow Knight bosses a bit easier and would remove one of the things that makes them as engaging- restricting the player's movement. I would say that all bosses restrict movement one way or another with their telegraphed attacks anyway (if you jump around too much, many bosses will punish that even with a telegraphed attack), but untelegraphed moves (in general, not only reposition) do it more severely- which can certainly make for something annoying and some bosses in Hollow Knight probably do suffer from this, but I feel that bosses like Hornet benefit from something like this, because these restrictions in movement make the battle's flow more distinct and do for a more dynamic battle with having slightly unpredictable elements Those be my 2 cents

[@the_holland]

Thanks for the comment! Harsh, telegraphed attacks that limit movement - count me in! But if my movement can only be restricted without me being able to respond... then I'm sad :(

[@Schenkel101]

I think treating all of a boss' movements as combat moves would do a lot for HK. Not just having a telegraph, but animating them as if they are still in combat even as they move. Maybe animate Hornet doing a short swing of her needle while she jumps, as if to deter you from going after her. Have Grey Prince Zote pose and do some cheesy flailing like he thinks he's doing some fancy fencing moves when he runs at you.

[@the_holland]

You know, that's a pretty good idea! I like that. Nice suggestion.

[@dirtpig02]

You yourself gave a solution to the "repositioning problem" It is to learn how a boss repositions and then avoid that area

[@the_holland]

Haha, okay man, but if that area is like half of the arena, don't you think that's a bit - *cringe* - ?

[@Onefishygal]

@the_holland ok but the thing is it's the half of the arena that it blocks is in the air, a lot of the time that is because if you could just spam pogo then the boss would be super easy. take pure vessel for example, 90% of his attacks can be dodged by being above him, if you could just keep pogoing and using wings when he teleports then the fight would be a cake walk, hence he has a jump attack that he uses if you try to do that. I admit it's a crude solution but it solves the problem.

[@the_holland]

I think you're making a good point, but crude is definitely not an overstatement

[@darkentity906]

It makes me unreasonably happy to see someone addressing this issue. It felt useless trying to learn all the boss' attack patterns when im just going to die from their jump repositioning anyway. I think a simple fix would just be adding an anticipation animation before it jumps. And maybe, instead of the boss just having a smooth arc towards its target when jumping, they jump directly above their target location, pausing for a bit, and then continue their fall straight into the ground. That way, we get both anticipation for the drop, and we know the location.

[@the_holland]

I'm equally unreasonably happy that so many people seem to agree with my points

[@xicit10]

The repositioning is part of the boss, it's just another pattern you should be able to learn or react to

[@the_holland]

With all due respect, I feel like you might've missed the point of my argument. You don't respond to a repositioning move, you have to predict it - which is also technically impossible, since it's usually random

[@daforkgaming3320]

@the_holland I understand this, but what I like about it is that it makes the game feel more like a real 1v1 fight. Take Cuphead for example, a game where the boss has a set of easy to predict but difficult to dodge attacks. The bosses in this game feel like bosses. They're bigger than you and throw way more stuff at you. (Note that this is not necessarily good or bad game design, just drawing a comparison) Hollow knight on has bosses, as you said, repositioning themselves. It feels more like a fair 1v1 fight where both you and the bosses are throwing simple attacks and jumping around the screen. I think the ability to heal also counteracts this. Sometimes you'll get the middle finger from bosses and get hit by the reposition, but can slow down and focus on healing to mitigate this

[@the_holland]

@@daforkgaming3320 Oh, I definitely agree that repositioning as a concept is a great thing! I *do* want the bosses to reposition - I'd just rather they did it in a fair way where I actually had a chance to respond to them and not get hit, rather than - as you say - getting the middle finger and being forced to go heal because the boss decided to jump at you without a telegraph.

[@Kar_Batteries]

You're mostly right except the part where you should be able to learn it It's impossible to learn something that's random, you can try to predict it but it's basically impossible to dodge something like that 100% or the time even if you do everything right. Attacks like the entirety of Hollow Knight's moveset have a specific pattern and can be dodged due to animations that give away what attack he's gonna use, just jumping up randomly and landing in a random spot on the other hand is not a well telegraphed attack hence why it's "unfair"🤓

[@the_holland]

@@Kar_Batteries Very well spoken, Kar

[@k0tseventysix461]

In my opinion, its just a fundamental issue that comes with a pogo mechanic. I've seen people talk about how pogoing on top of a boss/enemy trivializes them. It's a double-edged sword, on one hand it feels fluid and engaging (e.g. mantis lords) on the other it's counterintuitive and frustrating (e.g. GPZ). Overall, I liked the video! For me, teleporting bosses seem to be the most appealing, but that might be due to preference. Tldr: Its cuz pogo is op

[@the_holland]

Thanks for the comment! I appreciate reading your thoughts :)

[@kurenian]

Hahaha I def agree with this. Its a similar problem to Malenia’s Waterfowl Dance actually, where the entire fight becomes based around passivity to avoid an attack that’s borderline undodgeable at certain positions.

[@the_holland]

Oh yeah! I never got that far into Elden Ring, but I've heard about that attack - a very good comparison! Thanks for the comment!

[@iliveintrash5233]

Been trying to beat her lately, and the moment he mentioned needing to avoid certain attacks, WFD immediately came to mind. I'd genuinely love Malenia's fight if it weren't for that move.

[@FaptaA]

@iliveintrash5233 its my favorite fight in the enterity of Elden Ring, I am pretty sure I can survive against it from any angle, but I completelly agree, that attack, instead of making me go and fight her as if I was in a dance, it makes me pause the fight and wait for her to do It.

[@pascual8506]

This is a non-issue. You’re not meant to pogo your way to victory. Restricting free movement is an integral part of the fight design, and that’s exactly why many encounters involve navigating platforms, avoiding spike pits, or managing tight spaces. These constraints force you to think critically about positioning, timing, and how to use your tools effectively. Repositioning attacks are part of this challenge. They prevent you from relying solely on pogoing indefinitely. The inclusion of hazards, platforms, and repositioning attacks makes fights more dynamic, if you could move freely without obstacles or react to every attack without challenge, the game would lose much of its depth and tension.

[@the_holland]

I agree with you man, but that's not my point. My point is that you should be able to react to repositioning moves in the same way you do attacks - which you can't if the reposition is instantaneous. It needs a telegraph if it's going to deal damage. And I don't believe that you think this is a non-issue, because I've never seen a player not die at one point or another to an un-telegraphed repositioning move.

[@romankhamov6229]

This is not a non-issue, as contact damage creates situations where you are unfairly damaged. For example, when fighting Pure Vessel, one of the stun animations for the boss has it pushed back in the air before falling on the ground. The amount of deaths I got from that stupid animation made me change my entire strat for a radiant run. It's not a skill issue, it's not a "just play safer" issue. I should not be punished for successfully stunning a boss. Playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun. Everyone here is ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important.

[@the_holland]

@@romankhamov6229 Great point, Romankhamov. Bosses changing their hitboxes when they get stunned can be such bs

[@CamoLoTiProd]

@@romankhamov6229 It's not actually the core of the game. It's a metroid-vania style game for a reason. The only true dark soul's component is the respawn mechanic. It's kind of silly to ignore the fact it is a metroid vania style game.

[@romankhamov6229]

@CamoLoTiProd For a reason? For what reason? This has no bearing on the conversation at hand: contact damage. Whether or not it's a Metroidvania doesn't matter when we're primarily discussing boss fights. Besides, the only thing that really dusqualifies dark souls from being a Metroidvania is unlocking abilities in order to progress. Otherwise, the core mechanics are all there: exploration, heavy use of atmosphere, back tracking, elevators and doors granting new access or shortcuts, boss fights at core/end of new areas, etc.

[@InkLore-p3h]

Thank goodness, someone finally put into words what I felt like was the worst aspect of the game-worst precisely because it is a stain on what is otherwise one of the best aspects of the game.

[@the_holland]

I'm so glad to hear that you agree, InkLore!

[@Lockerft]

Honestly its just another pattern to learn, this just sounds like you just want to constantly pogo off the boss, i feel like the repositing was made to counter that, its just another move you have to look out for.

[@the_holland]

The difference is that other moves are telegraphed, while jumps are not. What you do against Hornet's Lunge-attack is dodging it when you see it. That's fun! What you do against her jump is *never being in the air* or hoping to God she doesn't decide to jump at the wrong time if you go there. That sucks!

[@Shaw21-w6j]

​@the_holland While there are definitely bosses with bad randomness, Hornet isnt one of them. The thing is that Hornet's jump reposition is entirely telegraphed. Never being in the air, while a valid solution, is not necessary to avoid getting hit by it. Its sudden animation, although technically reactable to, is rlly fast and is also not the main way of avoiding damage. Instead, you are supposed to keep in mind the boss's behavior in the last few seconds to predict when a jump is about to happen. There is no randomness to it, cos she always jumps to reposition if: 1. her stagger has just ended 2. she is backed up against the wall and the player is attacking her 3. her distance from the player is such that none of her attacks are possible. All of her attacks require her to be in specific distances with respect to the player character, and if none of those requirements are met she repositions herself to a better position. Because of this, when she starts a repositioning attack is always predictable, provided you have had enough experience with her fight to have picked up on these cues. You can see this in speedruns for example, where the players always react to a repositioning jump just before it actually starts. Where she lands is also predictable/dodgable by just watching her trajectory. Dodging into where she is landing is usually just a result of impatience/nervousness (at least for me), which is definitely a skill issue and not a boss design issue. Whether a boss should have movement like this that isnt telegraphed through animation, but through positioning and behabior is a different question. In my opinion, it works for the hornet fight, cos it adds replayability to an otherwise simple boss by allowing for greater mastery of the fight. Additionally, it makes you pay attention to your positioning throughout the entire fight, both to dodge the jump, and if you want, to attack her throughout the jump (you can hit her 2-3 times in one jump while shes midair for extra damage but it requires good control over your positioning. Its also possible to forcibly control her trajectory by timing your attacks well and hitting her towards specific directions, although this is mostly just needed in speerduns). The spikes in Hornet 2 are also for the same purpose of making movement more of a focus, by adding obstacles, but also by adding more objects to pogo while in the air. Without this, Hornet would struggle to measure up against bosses like the Mantis Lords and Watcher Knights which require good movement and attacking both, given the easy to dodge conventional attacks she has. And it only takes a few fights before you start recognizing this pattern, so I think the barrier to entry is also reasonable (Godhome makes this quite easy to do). Lost Kin's jump, while having the same tells as Hornet's, does have a small amount of randomization to it. Instead of just a jump, he can choose between any aerial attack in those situations, and for staggers, even his basic dash. So you have to keep all of those possibilities in mind. However, I think it still works. It adds to the chaos of the fight, and its still managable, since all of the aerial attacks can be dodged by just staying on the ground in those three situations. Bad Examples of Randomness in Bosses: That said, Traitor Lord's walk is absolutely unfair. There is absolutely no behavior or positioning tell. Instead, he just cancels his dash attack and walks into you for no reason, dealing two masks of damage at a time. The only way to dodge it is 1. by doing aerial combat for most of the fight, or 2. being paranoid of it the whole fight just in case he does it. Absolute Radiance can also sometimes choose an attack sequence that leads to undodgable damage. Watcher Knights have a small chance to roll backwards instead of forwards, and this attack still has the same wind-up animation. Crystal Guardian's vertical lasers and jumps are both too random to make for a rewarding fight. There are some others too, but these are the ones i find to be most egregious.

[@the_holland]

Shaw, that is the most well thought out counter-argument to my video I've yet to see, and I appreciate you a lot for taking the time to write it. I still do believe it's almost impossible to dodge some repositioning moves (try beating Hornet Sentinel on Radiant only by pogo'ing her). But you *do* make good points about prediction - for example, Hornet always jumping after a stagger is something I just recently learned, and although still basically impossible for new players to understand, it does make that particular reposition predictable (and as such way more fair). I really appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for sharing ❤️

[@Shaw21-w6j]

@the_holland I assume that only pogo-ing means never hitting the ground during the fight (floor is lava)? I tried for around half an hour, managed to hitless the Ascended fight and got through more than 80% of the Radiant fight once. Definitely a hard challenge, and it took me a while to get my strategy down, but after that most of my deaths were due to the attack where she jumps up and lunges towards you rather than the reposition. I see your point about how its almost impossible to dodge tho. Though I figured out a good movement pattern for dodging that while attacking, it was really hard in execution and I mostly played it safe by moving to the other side of the arena after I had hit her twice, to avoid having to dodge it. But I feel like that happens with most Radiant fights, especially challenge ones such as this? For example with NKG, I don't go for the optimal attack patterns when I'm trying to Radiant. In a normal fight, as long as you have picked up on the specific tells for when she is about to reposition, her moves are fair imo, both in how you are supposed to predict them and in how you are supposed to dodge them (they can be challenging for sure, but it still feels like a fair fight). In the floor is lava radiant challenge I agree, even when I could tell that shes about to reposition, I couldnt always execute the dodge movement reliably, so I would play it safe. But that is such an edge case that I dont think it is a boss design problem.

[@the_holland]

​@@Shaw21-w6j I appreciate you attempting my challenge! I guess I'll just have to disagree with you that it's an edge-case; I think *we* make it a non-issue (or at least a lesser issue) by playing in a very restricted way.​

[@Nicolas-dr3yp]

Bro is truly right,positioning nowadays is like not having the white "aura" of the attacks,you dont know where it will land or hit (also with the animation cut by half)

[@the_holland]

That's a great comparison, Nicolas! I should've used that in the video

[@Rohit-i5j]

I feel like this isn't that big of an issue because you can either tie a pogo to a bosses attack (pogoing pure vessel while he's doing his triple swing attack to get over it and deal damage) or just get more damage by using desolate dive/descending dark or just nail spamming next to them but if they were to get a telegraph I think all they need is crouch animation as the player should get a feel of where the boss should land after they do a jump

[@the_holland]

Well said, Rohit! Perhaps a slightly longer crouching animation would be enough!

[@plagueknight3056]

This is one of the main reasons I end up taking damage or outright dying to bosses, especially when playing on Radiance difficulty or attempting Pantheons with bindings. A telegraph fix would definitely help make the combat more fun, less frustrating, and more memorable.

[@the_holland]

I'm really glad you think so, Plagueknight :D

[@plagueknight3056]

​@the_holland It’s really frustrating to die just because a boss jumps in the same direction as the player. That aside, keep up the great work you’ve been doing, I’m looking forward to seeing more KR related content in the future!

[@the_holland]

@@plagueknight3056 I'll probably be focusing less on Kingdom Rush, but I've got at least one more video cooking! Thank you for watching and commenting, it means a lot :)

[@plagueknight3056]

@the_holland That’s unfortunate but understandable, I can’t force you to make more if you don’t want to. And you’re welcome

[@corgerr]

while i do agree that repositioning is a problem it forces you to stay grounded and actually fight off the attacks because without it you could just pogo every boss and not face any consequences

[@the_holland]

Perhaps un-telegraphed repositioning wasn't the only solution to that problem?

[@nevinmyers1245]

I think the no contact damage solution could work if given more thought. There are good ways to universally tell the player if an attack does damage. The boss could have an aura around it whenever contact damage is on, and this aura could extend to attacks. Maybe anything that does damage could have a certain colored outline, and that color is the game's shorthand for danger.The problem this runs into is diegesis (whether an element of the game is part of its world or just an abstract signal only the player can see). Hollow Knight's boss fights are pretty diegetic, with every telegraph being some action the boss literally takes in-game. Adding something that's basically a glorified HUD element like this might hurt immersion.

[@nevinmyers1245]

You touched on diegetic elements with your fourth solution. Hornet throwing a ball of thread or her nail to where she wants to jump is a great example of a diegetic fix.

[@the_holland]

I think the diegetic solution is definitely preferred! And I appreciate your input :)

[@captainstroon1555]

My favourite solution would be to get rid of collision damage alltogether. Only enemies with clearly indicated thornes, spikes, or blunt force impacts should have it. Alternatively they could do a quick close quarters swipe whenever the player gets too close. Collision damage is a relic from a time where enemy behaviour was limited by cartridge size.

[@the_holland]

Perhaps you're right. And I definitely don't hate the idea - I think Radiance functions very well, for example! But to play devil's advocate, I think we would need some way to very clearly tell when the boss could deal damage and when it couldn't.

[@Lizzymun]

@the_holland Nine Sols has no contact damage for Bosses if I recall correctly and you never have to question what does damage and what doesn't. Though of course the bosses have to designed with that in mind

[@the_holland]

@@Lizzymun True! But that does sound very cool, I should have to try that game someday :)

[@DoctorM2030]

This video in a nutshell: “I want to be able to fight the bosses without having to fight them on the ground.”

[@eyemmike7266]

Though I don't think auras or lines that indicate how the boss will reposition would fit the immersive world of Hollow Knight, I think its a really good solution to a problem like this. And while I do get your frustrations when it comes to learning how to deal with repositions reliably, I don't exactly get why the game teaching you to fear certain moves is a bad thing? Yes, the only reliable way to avoid the bosses jumping up and hitting you if you're pogoing them is to not pogo them in the first place, but apart from a very few select fights, pogoing is a bad way to go about damaging bosses in the first place as it significantly reduces your DPS potential compared to striking from the side. In general, being in the air is a very bad place to be in when it comes to HK's combat system. I'd argue the game teaching you to fear being in the air is a good design, not bad.

[@the_holland]

Hi Mike! I can agree with you that lines or auras generally don't really fit the game, and even for this problem I wish there was a better solution - which there may be. Well, see being in the air feels like a very effective strategy for parkour (e.g. White Palace), Colosseum of Fools, as well as most non-boss combat, but for boss fights, it's suddenly discouraged. To me, that feels disconnected from the rest of the game. Secondly, if pogo'ing really is a worse way to play effectively (which I think you might be right in saying that it is), why then does the game need to punish the player for playing in that way? That seems unnecessary if it's already a suboptimal playstyle. Thirdly, I'll tell you why I think fearing a move is a bad thing: because I don't fear the moves I love - even the hard ones. I don't fear Cascade from Broken Vessel, I adapt to it when it starts. I don't fear the Slash from Hollow Knight or Pure Vessel, I jump over the boss while getting a pogo in. And so on. I fear Hornet Sentinel jumping into me with no chance to react when I'm 2 meters into the air. Thanks for the comment though! I really appreciated reading it :)

[@LeJuice]

To hell with leaps across arena, what about those times bosses just straight up WALK INTO YOU? Like Hornet, Hive Knight, the coloseum beast and probably more

[@the_holland]

I KNOW, RIGHT? God damn if that isn't just the worst :'(

[@doomslice189]

My favorite counter to this is to D Dark if i dont know whats happening lol

[@the_holland]

That's the sign of a good Hollow Knight player, haha - and a very good instinct to have!

[@lowfrequencywizard]

I like solution 2! Just walking into the boss should still be punished, but not the boss walking into you.

[@the_holland]

Hey, I'm glad to hear that! And that's totally fair, I think that could work too

[@tylerharper5306]

In gravity circuit the hard mode lets bosses challenge cancel their moves so some safe slam moves will be followed by an instant reposition

[@the_holland]

Wild

[@hdk-gamer2829]

Simply do not jump if unnecessary

[@the_holland]

Good point

[@DANIELDAN-p5o]

after 200+ hours of gameplay, I think (opinion) that eventually you just know when to move out of the way

[@the_holland]

I definitely agree with that. Question is: *should* it be that way?

[@bharatmatakayoda]

As someone with 260 hours and skill issue It's subjective skill matters more than time spend

[@the_holland]

I don't really understand?

[@DANIELDAN-p5o]

@the_holland I don't know because new players tend to not know what to do so it might be hard for them.

[@bharatmatakayoda]

@the_holland I meant the person that made the comment is wrong There is not a fixed time u will learn to dodge the jumps Like just because u have 200+ hours doesn't mean u can avoid And just because u only have 50 hours doesn't mean u can't avoid the attack

[@cejkisondrej1113]

Some jumping bosses are really awful if the target location is random. But I think that you just have to stay on the ground more if the boss jumps a lot.

[@the_holland]

That's what you have to do to win currently, yes. But maybe not how it *has* to be.

[@cejkisondrej1113]

@the_holland I'm not a huge fan of airborne combat (I play on keyboard), so I'm fine with that. I also feel like it's fair that you have to use different strategies for every boss.

[@the_holland]

@ Yeah, but an unfair move is an unfair move - I get your point though.

[@AvocaToast]

I disagreed for a while, then I fought God tamer. Get undodgably damaged because you got walked into.

[@the_holland]

*yepppp*

[@TheHollowestKnight]

She's so easy to kill

[@the_holland]

If you pogo her pet! But if you just stand next to it and get ran into, you're *dead* buddy!!

[@Devine-Jade]

dont play silksong when it comes out, i dont want someone as bad as you controlling me

[@Draggon-foly]

I believe you

[@Draggon-foly]

I don't get controlled but i constantly get obliterated again and again by pros, or fight.noobs till they beat me😭

[@the_holland]

Dance, my little puppet... DANCE! *You're* watching and commenting on my video, so charade you are! Muahahaha! DANCE!

[@the_holland]

Man you need to get some sleep

[@Draggon-foly]

Well at least im more lucky then poor desert sqorage, it's gotta be the worst fate to be the first ever boss in the most popular mod ever😥

[@birdlegscass]

another solution would be to have bosses avoid repositioning toward the player--i.e. not jumping while the player is above them. they could instead, say, dash sideways in that situation, and only in that situation, to reposition

[@the_holland]

Good point! I kinda like the idea, actually :)

[@matheuscabral9618]

I think your solution would just make the fights straight up easier. I don't think repositioning is a very big problem, you just need to restrict your movement, which is fine. You're not supposed to fight every boss while flying. He is the boss and you are the Challenger, it's fine that he sets the "rules" for the fight, and you need to fight in a specific way.

[@the_holland]

That's a fair opinion, Matheus, even though I must say I disagree - although not on the point about making the fights easier, it definitely would do that. Although you could easily counterweigh that by making the bosses harder in another way - like having them act quicker. Thanks a for the comment, though!

[@romankhamov6229]

Everyone here is ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. See AbsRad.

[@Juustoboi3]

​@@romankhamov6229 They still have a lot of differences, for example a whole new freaking dimension. Hollow Knight is 2D and Dark Souls is 3D. They don't need collision damage because the overall differences can create new ways to make the bosses harder and have the positioning kept important. Why doesn't Hollow Knight just do it like Dark Souls? Well I'm not Team Cherry, f**k if I know. But if I had to guess, it would be that Hollow Knight is not Dark Souls, how mind boggling is that? If every game had the same core mechanics, what would be the point of playing literally anything but one game? Hollow Knight's collision damage is there because it's thought of and it was put in the game when there was an option not to. And I understand that it's not just the collision damage that you guys are so afraid of, it's the repositioning moves that you just can't get the hang of because of collision damage. Riddle me this: What is a boss (in a videogame)? If you said anything along the lines of "Someone/something to block your path and challenge you, test your skills or just protect something like game progression or a reward",of good job. That's a boss alright. The bosses in Hollow Knight tend to lock you in areas, be it a small room with locked gates or for example AbsRad having a massive arena that you can't leave. That's because THEY'RE the boss and THEY give you the challenge, not the other way around (unless you're just absolutely steamrolling their butts, but still the principle stands). That being said you are typically limited of your movement because you are not the boss in the fight. You can't decide the rhythm, you just have to follow it. If you pogo on Pure Vessel, he doesn't really like that and tends to get a bit bouncy. In your head, if you are paying any attention to the fight, should in some time pop up the thought "Hey, this boss punishes me for trying to exploit aerial combat on him, maybe I shouldn't do that or at least limit myself from doing it too much and getting hit in the process". Why do you think 95% of the players don't have the same issue? It's because they know it's not a design flaw but something you need to be on the lookout for and you can avoid with actions made beforehand plus good reaction timing. To put it shortly, they don't suck. All things considered there is a reason only a fraction of players have this issue. It's because they're the ones making such a big deal about it when in reality, it's not that deep. You just want to let out your emotions after getting repeateadly smacked in the face by Hornet's jump while not understanding that you're the problem. And I'm fine with that, as long as you don't immediatly go shouting that it's a design flaw or something. Sorry for yapping though on skibidi fr fr my sigma rizzlers

[@Thy_Punishment_Is_OOF]

@@romankhamov6229 as the other guy said, Hollow Knight is a 2D game with limited movement. Should I list other 2D games with collision damage? Ok then. TBoI, Terraria with it's Eye of Cthulhu, EtG and probably a bunch more that I can't remember.

[@TheOneAndOnlyOrb]

The hollow knight is literally a soul user, just like the player knight. He literally uses focus in the pure vessel fight

[@the_holland]

That's true, but to me, his "teleport-dash" doesn't look like it's caused by a spell. Besides, what about Hive Knight then?

[@TheOneAndOnlyOrb]

@the_holland well, the hive knight probably just moves super fast like mantis lords

[@the_holland]

Right! Exactly xD

[@dimaginarylaw]

I completely disagree that the restriction from repositioning makes the bosses less fun. To me that extra dynamic just makes bosses more involved and adds more strategy. Not being able to move mindlessly around the fight isn't a problem, it's just part of learning and fighting a boss

[@the_holland]

I politely disagree, but thanks for sharing your opinion anyway!

[@Ryder35545]

Contact damage is also a problem, you’re just making contact with a boss it’s like they are covered in poison. I understand bosses like boss, but why for bosses like hornet who actually attacks you?

[@the_holland]

I suppose it's to make it more obvious exactly *when* the boss can damage you - which in Hornet's case is "always". But I agree with you that it causes problems :)

[@HuiJi-r2w]

Without it, you could easily beat most bosses. Just stand within the boss and you can deal insane damage and easily dodge their attacks by going through them.

[@КалоянПенев-м3р]

Never let bro cook again

[@the_holland]

Thank you ❤️

[@xdeluxezx]

Most repositioning situations in bosses exist to either make you stop pogo'ing off the boss or to give the boss some space so you can't just spam hit him. Yes it doesn't have a telegraph, you're not supposed to "react" to it, it supposed to make you fight the boss in a certain way.

[@the_holland]

If that's true, that's poor game design - limiting freedom, fun and heavily punishing new players.

[@xdeluxezx]

@the_holland you don't have that much freedom when fighting bosses and yeah, hollow knight is...punishing... who would have thought that

[@the_holland]

@@xdeluxezx There's a huge difference between "hard" and "poorly designed", so that sadly doesn't work

[@xdeluxezx]

@the_holland how is it poorly designed?

[@the_holland]

@@xdeluxezx Well, if you can only predict and not respond to something that's going to damage you, then you end up having an event that can randomly damage you or randomly not damage you - which is more luck than skill and not fun at all

[@GreatBeanicus]

Many games with otherwise really fair feeling combat have this issue. It is why I'm glad that there are games that do most of what you've suggested. Contact damage doesn't really make sense to me even after nearly 30 years of gaming. It's an old holdover from when making attacks for enemies was much harder and space in game code was limited. It really only works for me when an enemy is made of hazardous material, and even then, it should have a different feel and animation from taking damage in other ways. Many games avoid contact damage altogether even with tight combat, although it seems that mostly platformers with great movement tools typically keep it around. It isn't incredibly tough to make sure attacks are all telegraphed to make sure you, the player are aware of what does damage and what doesn't. There may be some lines blurred, especially with movement based attacks, but you can make it clear that the movement should damage you in some way. This can be done by using the character's weapon or attributes as an indicator in the animation.

[@the_holland]

Hi Bernicus, I think all you wrote is fantastic. I truly agree with you 100%. Thank you so much for writing that comment, it meant a lot :D

[@pixywings]

A good example of a super annoying and deadly repositioning move is Nightmare King Grim's backwards skitter. I'll think he's about to attack and move to shadow dash through him, but instead he skitters backwards, and I end up just running right into him and taking damage. It is this move that kills me almost every time! And don't even get me started on Grey Prince Zote! I hate that fight soooooo much! Speaking of Hornet... I actually find her easier to fight when I'm in the air most of the time. Soooo... Just to be clear I'm not really complaining. Hollow knight is my favorite game ever and I have put countless hours into multiple playthroughs. My thoughts on your solutions: 1. I think removing collision damage would make a lot of bosses too easy! 2. No collision damage while repositioning might be too difficult to code. But I am not a programmer, so I wouldn't know. 3. I hate it when enemies teleport so please God no!!! 4. Yep, probably the best solution! Maybe they'll do that in Silksong if it ever actually comes out. But I don't think it should be quite as obvious as your examples.

[@the_holland]

Very good example with Grimm! :) And Zote, oh boy... he's the worst. Thanks for the comment!

[@Lockerft]

7:14 ill explain why both solution 2 qnd 3 wont work. No collision damage on reposition wouldn't make sense, as boss like Hornet, Hive Knight, Lost Kin (and broken vessel) have the repostion move as a main part of their kit, not to mention as i stated in a previous comment, sit there for a second before jumping, its all just a pattern, a pattern you'd have to learn. And the teleport, wouldn't make sense at all, all bosses that teleport have reasons, Soul Master/tyrant use soul, Hive Knight (well idk much about the hive so confused), Pure Vessel/Hallow Knight, use void to teleport (most likely)

[@the_holland]

Right, Hive Knight is the exception - so I do think it can be a martial move, as I state in the video. And I agree with you, Solution 1 and 2 are hard to implement without ruining other parts of the fights.

[@Onefishygal]

my main gripe with this is the fact that you CAN predict where "generally" the boss will land. take lost kin for example, i might be wrong but im 90% sure he never intentionally jumps on top of you without doing the downward plunge telegraph, if you calm down and play the boss slower you'll realize that he jumps to either side so you just need to slow down and react accordingly the telegraph starts when he jumps and then he can do one of 3 things, land on the right, land on the left, or plunge, 2 of which you don't have to do anything for and the last one has an additional telegraph. what I can agree with you on is attacks where bosses like traitor lord will walk forward a little with no telegraph as you just don't have time to react to that. I do wish there were more bosses where I could stay in tha air a bit more but I don't think it's as big of a problem as you make it out to be.

[@the_holland]

You're right, Onefish, that Lost Kin doesn't intentionally "go for you" unless he's doing the down-smash, in which case you have (more) time to react. The problem is that even if he's not going for you, he can bump into you on his way from, let's say, going right to left. This means you have to stay on the ground for fear of being randomly hit, and it's something I constantly have to help people with when I introduce them to Hollow Knight - I have to tell them "don't jump, don't ever jump unless you need to, because it's gonna get you randomly killed". So in that sense, it's definitely an issue. If you don't see it as one, that's because you're used to the fight and know not to jump - but that doesn't make it a good mechanic. Now I'm at least glad we can agree about the Traitor Lord-walk-forward-bug! And thanks a lot for the comment!

[@Onefishygal]

@the_holland yeah I I think it's fine for bosses to have moves like that but I think what would be better is if the boss had a bunch of moves that they do if you're in the air that would be harder or easier to dodge. that would make each boss more of a do I fight this one in the air or on the ground kind of deal which I think would be super cool. also is that traitor lord thing a bug? if so I wish they would've fixed it.

[@the_holland]

I just assume it's a bug, because it happens so rarely and makes no sense. I think he's trying to back away from you, but accidentally goes the wrong way

[@uselessprofessional]

i personally just kinda feel like the repositioning is a perfectly balanced attack for like 95% of bosses, the only one i have a problem with is broken vessel/lost kin because its freakishly fast

[@the_holland]

What about Hornet Sentinel?

[@uselessprofessional]

@ actually I really like it in hornet sentinel, it’s one of my favorite parts about it, it just sucks in radiant which isn’t a requirement by any stretch

[@the_holland]

Fair enough. I agree that it's definitely the most problematic in Radiant fights!

[@jangabrielluus2320]

I really do not want to sound harsh or mean here but to be honest, sounds like a skill issue. You seem to have some issues with how you play the game: 1) You assume all attacks must have telegraphing. They do not. All repositioning moves are attacks too. Yes, some attacks seem rather unpredictable at first, but if you simply take the time to learn their movement then you will realize that they are more predictable than they at first seem. The only times repositioning attacks are unavoidable are when you actively respond in a way you should not, and you are punished accordingly. 2) You assume that you are the one calling the shots in terms of movement. You aren't. You are not supposed to have 100% freedom of movement during a bossfight, as part of the skill in playing the game is learning to follow the boss. The boss is the one dictating how the movement of the fight will go, and you have to learn to play around the bosses, as they won't play around you. 3) You assume staying in the air is how the game was designed to be played. That is partially true, but not to the extent you believe it to be. Yes movement in the air feels really good and I know you can be in the air, but that doesn't mean you should spend all your time there. You've gotta keep grounded in many fights. This also references back to point number 2 here. If a boss is in the air a lot, you can't just decide that you want to be in the air all the time too. As a result of these three points, you assume there is a problem with how the game was designed and that how you play is not the problem. I'm also going to address how your four solutions would worsen the game: 1 and 2) Many bosses are designed around having physical hitboxes that damage you. Removing them would break most bosses and make them free wins, resulting in a much less engaging and less enjoyable combat. The only reason Radiance/AbsRad doesn't have one is because she is designed so that a hitbox would make it straight up impossible. 3) Teleporting bosses would make most of them worse too. If all bosses acted like Elder Hu and just teleported around they wouldn't be fun bossfights. Some bosses make teleporting work, but it won't apply to all of them. 4) If all bosses telegraphed their movements, the game would be way too easy and it would likely ruin bossfights. Where is the skill in simply avoiding where telegraphs indicate the boss will move? Simply looking at where these indicators are and avoiding them is not skill, it's just observation. You need to get a feel for how each boss moves around. Here's my advice. You need to learn to flow with the boss, instead of stubbornly trying to go against how the boss moves. Air movement is incredibly fun, I know, but if a boss's attacks and movement clash with air movement, you have to adapt and stay grounded. Also, try to rely less on telegraphing. If you solely respond to telegraphing you will never truly learn how to fight these bosses.

[@the_holland]

If observing a telegraph and responding accordingly isn't skill, then I'd love you to tell me what is

[@romankhamov6229]

Games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight, invalidate your points. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important. It wouldn't be hard to redesign bosses to show a distinction between a damaging reposition, and a non-damaging reposition.

[@Juustoboi3]

​@the_holland It is skill, for sure. But that's not the only thing equipped with that same quality. If you just blatantly assume that every boss has a telegraph that a blind person could react to if they just know what they're doing, that would ruin the uniqueness of the game.

[@the_holland]

@@Juustoboi3 If a blind person could react to it, I guess it had to be auditory, haha. No but for real, I'm not saying telegraphs have to be overly long. They just have to *be there at all* and be long enough so that you can react to them; unlike Hornet or Broken Vessel jumping, for example.

[@Thy_Punishment_Is_OOF]

@@romankhamov6229 alright. What are your suggestions on that?

[@HuiJi-r2w]

I feel like these kind of attacks contribute to a healthy boss fight. If these types of attacks didn’t exist, or were made way too easy like in your solutions, I would spend most of the fight pogoing the boss. These repositioning attacks encourage a balanced play style where you use both the ground and air.

[@the_holland]

That's a totally appropriate counterpoint, but couldn't you implement anti-pogoing measures like what Mantis Warriors have instead? (Slashing upwards really quickly if they catch you being above them)

[@LoraLoibu]

@the_holland some *regular enemies* (namely, the city's guards) can swat you out of the air, why not apply that logic to bosses?

[@the_holland]

@ Right, exactly!

[@pablosuarez9211]

In my personal experience, it adds another element to the fights that keeps them flowing and keeps them on my toes. The repositions are inherently random and very quick, but I personally have never come across one I HAD to predict and couldn’t react to. If every move was super set with a telegraph and response, it would be too easy to memorize, meaning that the boss design would have to be off the charts to remedy it. Basically every boss would have to be pure vessel level, which isn’t realistic or necessary. I think the moves add a bit of randomness that makes sure you don’t just get into a monotonous pattern, but an actual flow where reaction is tested and response. I also don’t see the issue with repositioning limiting your movement. All bosses limit you in a way and the player shouldn’t have complete freedom of the skies all the time, otherwise the game would be too simple once again. Even pure vessel, who i think is clear of the issue you present, can smack you out of the air with his leap. Just my opinion, I personally disagree with your points but I can see where you’re coming from. Video was great tho! Good quality and well spoken commentary

[@the_holland]

Okay I'm sorry, you can respond to Lost Kin when he repositions and you're in the air? There's no way! An also, "every boss would have to be like Pure Vessel and that isn't realistic" is just like saying "every boss would have to be well made and that's not realistic." Although I do agree with you that Pure Vessel is not perfect (e.g. the leap you mention), I think he's closer to perfection than most other bosses. Thanks for the comment, though :)

[@privateacount4152]

A wise Hornet once said: "Git Gud!"

[@the_holland]

Shaw!

[@gameninjac6608]

I understand your frustration, but I think it's an ultimately unavoidable problem, at least within the constraints of a typical boss fight. Part of what gives good boss fights that dance feel is the give and take created by the boss's ability to control areas, forcing you to play around the boss at all times, not just when it's actively throwing out an attack. You have to learn where to put yourself to properly dodge attacks, and the approximate rhythm the boss's attacks come out. Without this, boss fights would effectively just be cleverly disguised quick time events. Edit: I should specify that I am not referring specifically to "positioning attacks" here - I am referring to the general issue of sometimes being put in scenarios at which point avoiding damage is impossible or borderline impossible. Also, I would like to bring up the point that, although the Soul Master doesn't actively have any positioning attacks, it still can very easily put you into a scenario like this if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, and even more so with Soul Tyrant. Also, beyond just taking damage, positioning yourself prior to the boss's attack is often required to hit a boss during its attacks, and this is basically forced for some of the most popular bosses in the game, such as NKG, Pure Vessel, or Mantis Lords. In sum, I think forcing the player to consider their own positioning is highly important to the flow of combat, and that, because of this, certain moves having little to no telegraph can be helpful in giving boss fights the desired feel. Edit 2: Formatting

[@the_holland]

Thank you for the well thought-out comment, gamingninja. I loved reading it! I actually like your angle a whole lot. It's very different from other critics of my argument. And I'd say I mostly agree with you - that there's something ultimately fun and "dance-like" about having to be in pretty specific places at specific times. But thinking about it as I'm writing this, I believe we can achieve that without having to put the player in a situation where they're gonna take damage no matter what they do. See, because you point out later in your comment that during some fights: "(...) positioning yourself prior to the boss's attack is often required to hit a boss during its attacks (...)". And that's definitely true! But the difference between that and taking unavoidable damage is that one is way more punishing than the other. Think about what you're losing if you don't know where to be at which time: in one instance, it's health. In the other, it's an opportunity to deal the boss damage. And I think the latter feels much more fair. Because as long as you're not taking unavoidable damage, you can slowly start to learn where you have to be to damage the boss! And that's a fun learning experience; whereas taking unavoidable damage is (at least to me) just really frustrating. Thanks again for the comment!

[@EtenNvm]

Player having dash that activates in less than half a second and moves a solid distance with invulnerability when bosses just jump without telling abt it: unfair Also hornet in silksong after losing collision dmg: unfair Also literally soft bouncy mushroom (but alive) after dealing contact damage: fair

[@the_holland]

what now

[@EtenNvm]

@the_holland idk, just some logoc issues in hollow knight i suppose, that actually may conflict with baance, idrk, my mind just makes some randomest comments sometimes

[@the_holland]

That's okay 🥰 so does mine

[@LuckyX1113]

I've just recently started trying to beat every boss on radiant and the amount of times Hornet Sentinel has hit me because I tried to shade cloak through her right before she does that little backstep is painful. Same for every time I tried to dash under her while she's doing a repositioning jump, only for the silk burst attack to come out of nowhere . Adding some sort of indication as to when bosses reposition would really help to alleviate some of that annoyance factor.

[@the_holland]

You put those experiences so nicely into words, Lucky. YES! That stuff happens to me all the time too! So glad you agree ':D

[@TheOneAndOnlyOrb]

Well, maybe its supposed to be kinda unfair, to maybe make a boss feel more natural and wild. Since the hardest bosses dont have that problem, and for earlier ones you can find better gear. It may be unfair, but it makes a fight more intense

[@the_holland]

True. But wouldn't intense and *fair* be better?

[@TheOneAndOnlyOrb]

@the_holland yes, it does make sense from the gameplay standpoint, but it just makes your enemy feel alive, like, it wouldnt be the same if they just did an attack after attack, or made an action to indicate they are moving. My compromise would be to only give contact damage to especially big enemies like false knight, traitor lord and dung defender, and leave more nimble enemies like hornet and broken vessel intangible until they perform an attack

[@the_holland]

I like your last suggestion better than just saying "well shucks, probably just an unfixable problem" ;)

[@AdabatOfficial]

A LOT of the comments here are saying that "repositioning is part of the boss' patterns" and you should have to memorize/remember that the boss can do that (ie. skill issue!!) Yes. Repositioning IS part of the boss' moveset, and it is something players have to learn and adjust their playstyles to. But it can sometimes be a BAD part of their moveset. That's the whole point. For some bosses, like Crystal Guardian, Lost Kin, Hornet, etc. they can randomly jump (which would telegraph to any logical player that "hey, they're going to do an air attack,") and they end up doing nothing at all, which is jarring and unpredictable (AND unreactable, in some cases). Even worse is when the boss repositions or jumps at insanely fast speeds (which is very possible in this game since some bosses can just zip across the screen) which can just instakill a player that's in the "wrong" spot (a spot that was presumably safe, even to the brightest and most calculating players). An example of GOOD repositioning (imo) is Hive Knight, specifically where he disappears off screen and reappears (with warning) to reposition. This isn't the ONLY way to do repositioning. I'd actually argue that turning off hitboxes for repositioning is a BAD thing because it can be jarring to phase through a boss unexpectedly (and this fix would also remove the inherent difficulty of some bosses like Nosk as others mentioned. Other games (ie. Nine Sols, you all should play it! Surprisingly amazing!) may fix the repositioning problem like this: enemies never have hitboxes that damage you, only their attacks have hitboxes. While this is inherently super different from Hollow Knight, and I wouldn't implement it in this game if I had the chance, I don't hate on it just for that-- it plays REALLY well, and I actually PREFER it, because I know I can walk right through bosses but the second they attack me I have to be wary. (Also, enemies' bodies having no damage hitboxes means the devs can play around with stronger and more interesting attacks, to balance things out!) With all of that said, here's what I would do to address the inherent problem of boss repositioning mentioned in this video. Simply make the bosses NOT do that stuff. Replace their random jumps with other moves that work better for the purpose, like Hornet's jump and shaw, or Lost Kin's slamdown. Crystal guardian could have a new attack where he shoots a laser into the ground to launch himself to another location on the map. Other bosses can do other readable, fitting things. (I'd wager one of the major reasons these things weren't implemented was because the devs didn't think to or they didn't want to because of time, budget, effort, etc... It's much easier just to make the dude hop) If those attacks were the only things players had to calculate for, the game would FEEL a lot better to play on that front, and you can't really make the argument that the boss loses any "beneficial" difficulty or value, because anything weird they WOULD have done is replaced with something more reasonable. With all of that said, I have hundreds of hours on HK and my favorite pastime in the game is to run pantheons. I love the game and its combat a LOT, and I've played many other platformers and metroidvanias as well. I'd never give Hollow Knight anything below a 10/10, especially on the combat front, but I can't lie and say the game is "perfect," and this random repositioning issue happens to be one of the MINOR things I wish could change. Hopefully Silksong solves this problem in its own unique way and makes bosses even more exciting, readable, and strategic than HK!

[@AdabatOfficial]

Also, you talked about telegraphing in the video, and this is one of the biggest things other comments are missing as well, I just wanted to point out that your logic is sound and it's fair to say that many repositioning moves aren't telegraphed to the same DEGREE as other attacks in HK. I also wanted to add that, if an attack or repositioning move telegraphs roughly WHERE it will happen (ie. where will the boss jump? left or right? straight up or towards you?) in some sort of way, that's an added plus for me. The more readable a boss is (ie. relaying the right info to the player to help them make the right decisions) the better, of course this is a generalization and it's not all black and white but you get my point!

[@the_holland]

Hi Adabat, I read both of your comments, and I'm relieved to feel like someone finally gets me. I love everything you're saying, even the point about this being a minor issue (because it IS a minor issue in the grand scheme of things - Hollow Knight is no doubt a 10/10, even in combat!). And having the boss deal no damage - but only their attacks - although hard to implement into Hollow Knight as we know it sounds like an AWESOME fix! I'd pin your wonderful comment, but that would seem too much like I'm patting myself on the back 😆 Thank you a lot for taking the time to write it, though. I really appreciate it.

[@AdabatOfficial]

@the_holland Hey, glad to see your response! I definitely didn't put as much time into the comment as you did into the video, of course, so I'd like to return the sentiment: thanks for making the vid, and keep it up!

[@the_holland]

@@AdabatOfficial You are too kind, Adabat, thanks a lot for the kind words!

[@romankhamov6229]

Amen brother! Most people on the comments are missing the point entirely.

[@noerosier4714]

I agree so much with this! On related note i hate when bosses change in stance change their hitbox dramatically, for exemple the hollow knight getup animation when he is henched over always felt unfair as it it the player if he was in the position to pogo

[@the_holland]

I'm so glad to hear that! And yeah, I totally agree with that! Doesn't feel very fun to take damage from such an "attack" :O Thanks a lot for the comment!

[@thescottyjam8906]

I think people will generally agree that a repositioning move is just another type of attack. However, I'm not sure I agree that all attacks need to be telegraphed. The end goal is to have the boss fight be something that's difficult at first, but that can be learned without too much trouble (...but with some trouble - these are bosses, they're supposed to be a challenge). Telegraphs are just one tool to accomplish this - they're little signs that you can learn and understand as you practice the boss. But this isn't the only way. Take the "Massive moss charger" boss. It only has two attacks - it either jumps or dashes at you, neither of which are telegraphed. Is the boss unfair? Not at all. After the attack has started, you're given enough time to react before the boss reaches you. You talked about how bosses should do something to indicate where they plan on landing when their jump is done - but do they actually need to do this? Are these scenarios any different from the "massive moss charger" - they start their jump, you can see their trajectory, and you have enough time to decide if you need to rush or stay put. This certainly isn't trivial because you're not given much time to figure it out, but with a bit of practice, it's very possible, and that's exactly the point. If we think it's too difficult, the solution could be to just slow their jump down a bit, as opposed to adding a huge telegraph to the jump. Another good example is the Mantis Lord. He attacks in a very easy-to-pick-up rythym, so you know when he's going to attack and when you have time time to strike. When he does attack, it's usually one of two options - the jump dive or the lunge, neither of which is telegraphed (if I remember correctly), but that's perfectly fine. You should know when it's safe to POGO on him, and when you should be a few paces away, ready to dodge, not because you've picked up on a telegraph, but because you've picked up on the rhythm.

[@the_holland]

Hi, Scottyjam, Can I just say: thank you for making these counter-arguments in the way you did. I really appreciate how respectful you're being, and you make some damn good points too! I actually agree with basically everything you're saying. Maybe I can comment on a few things? 1. I'd say Massive Moss charger *does* actually telegraph his attack, but it's in a very untraditional way: he always pops up a certain distance away from you, giving you time to react. As you note yourself, you're "given enough time to react" - to me, that implies a telegraph. 2. But your point about not showing *exactly* where Moss Charger wants to go is totally valid. I really think you're right that this might be too much. I'm also not 100% sure I even like the solution myself - I was simply trying to come up with some sort of fix for the more annoying bosses. But I think Moss Charger solves the problem very well already. 3. Traitor Lord is one of my favourite bosses, and he does actually have a telegraph for each of his attacks. It's still somewhat hard to react to his up-slash if you're pogo'ing him, but I really don't think this is a huge issue. Thank you so much for the comment! I really enjoyed reading it :D

[@ravenman4228]

I very much agree, one thing that I really hate is Grey Prince Zote, I've been trying for a while to get to Fight 10 and I've just been driven to the edge because of it, I'm able to handle every attack and not get hit but the reason that I still die is because instead of doing an attack he just with zero warning walks straight into me dealing over half my health and does it at least twice a fight Even explosive Zote and mini Zote spam plus shock wave ground spams I've managed to dodge and it feels great but dying to the reckless clutz just, walking forward feels horrible

[@Doge_LXIX]

there is no repositioning problem, the only problem is you not being good enough at the game

[@the_holland]

Get 'em, Queen! ❤️

[@tyxolotl]

I think that the telegraph idea is best but I don't like the exact trajectory and the white aura solutions cause they would break the immersion of the game but what could work well is the boss doing some sort of lean towards the side they're going to jump towards

[@the_holland]

I agree. I think that is too immersion-breaking.

[@Lockerft]

5:42 thats not a fix, 99% of boases become non issues if you remove collision, lets take nosk for example, he becomes a cakewalk. Edit: Abstard and Radiance don't count, I'm talking about bosses that had hit boxes to start.

[@rebien6289]

i agree absrad is a cake walk

[@the_holland]

Well, Locker, I actually agree with you that this probably isn't a very good solution. But if you *had* to implement it, what you'd presumably do with bosses like Nosk was to more clearly define that his Charge-attack *is* an attack and not just a repositioning move - so it *would* deal damage.

[@Wombattuus]

@the_holland There are ways to avoid the 'attack', it's not unfair and you shouldn't get yourself in a position where this 'attack' could harm you

[@the_holland]

But now you're cowering on the ground rather than dodging an attack. That's simply not skill, it's fear!

[@Wombattuus]

@the_holland This feels so ai generated

[@TheNotSoGreat1]

I do definitely think some bosses need better telegraphs. Funnily enough, I disagree with your idea for Hornet. She's honestly not as bad with her repositions as other bosses and I think it makes sense to have some bosses limit you to certain play styles. One boss I think definitely needs this change is Broken Vessel / Lost Kin. This is just because it moves way too fast to react and you just have be very safe with movement for no reason. Maybe have an infection bubble appear below the spot it jumps would work well. Some bosses could also just have smaller hitboxes since a lot of collision attacks feel a bit cheap. As much as I love it, the Hollow Knight / Pure Vessel is one of these bosses. The game is really fun and I think they did an amazing job considering their limitations but it would've been nice if we got some of these changes in an update. Hopefully Silksong learns from this because telegraphs are some of the best things Hollow Knight had

[@the_holland]

Thanks for the comment!

[@mikedoesthings2134]

9:56 ideas for boss tells Hornet: Small blades of grass will be violently blown in the wind in the area Hornet is jumping to Broken Vessel: Small globs of infection will peer out of a crack in the area the Broken Vessel is jumping to Crystal Guardian: Small crystals will jut out of the ground in the area the Crystal Guardian is jumping to

[@the_holland]

I truly mean this when I say it: wow. That actually made me feel something. I think those are EXCELLENT ideas! Damn, that could be made to fit so well into Hollow Knight!!

[@theoneandonlyZef]

me omw to finally beat a radiant boss but it steps forward:

[@the_holland]

😭 I know man, I know 😖

[@Car_Jammer]

Goddamn the comment is cooking this dude

[@the_holland]

They sure are

[@oshirothebubble]

The entire problem feels like it is just you wanting to not touch the ground and bosses preventing you from doing it imo. Making bosses teleport is just not an option(thk, pv and Hive Knight are trained warriors who learned how to teleport from their king/queen so it makes sense to them). And telegraphing them is not needed. One answer, stay closer to the ground. Gpz is known for jumping a lot so you should only jump after he does the shockwaves and the running attack. The only boss that allows cool midair moves with downwards attacks is soul master/tyrant(his fakeout version just has a very fun way to dodge it for me). Bosses really are designed for you to stay on the ground more that stay in the sky(except markoth). Yes, repositioning can be unfair, for example, you want to Abyss shriek lost kin when he jumps to end the fight faster but he jumps right at you and you are still in the animation of the spell(Abyss shriek is the worst spell imo btw) and get hit. But you can just, not do that. There are no bosses requiring you to be in the sky for a long time, there is always some ground to stand on. Okay, this sure was an unstructured load of thoughts...

[@the_holland]

What you're saying is true, Oshirothebubble - to not get hit, you should stay on the ground. What *I'm* saying is that this is a flaw in Hollow Knight's gameplay design, and I wish it would change. It's not that any fight really "requires" you to be in the air. It's that you *can* be in the air, but if you go there, you can get lucky and have nothing happen, or - as you point out - you can have Lost Kin randomly jump at you and make you take unavoidable damage. And even though I love Hollow Knight, I think that's a design flaw.

[@oshirothebubble]

You misunderstood the lost kin part a little. I meant that even if you are on the ground and use Abyss Shriek on the boss, it can still hit you while repositioning because you thought it will jump over you. And the worst part is that you can't avoid the damage because of the very long shriek animation. Another way of getting unfair hits is when the boss gets staggered in the air and falls right at you. Also you can be too close to Pure Vessel and he falls on stagger and you get double damage which really sucks. The clips of radiant fails because of repositions raise some questions to me. Gpz attacks with jumping and repositioning and the collector only way of moving is repositioning. You only have to worry about when he wants to grab you which is not a reposition. If you are trying radiant bosses, you should know the moves of the boss already and all you need to do is dodge them consistently and beat the boss fast. One last thing:why is there traitor lord in the thumbnail? He isn't mentioned in the video except some gameplay footage and the reposition in his fight is just... walking. The jump is an attack.

[@the_holland]

Traitor Lord is in the thumbnail because he has that little walk-forwards bug that is impossible to dodge

[@oshirothebubble]

​@the_hollandwhat? I didn't understand you quite well.

[@the_holland]

@oshirothebubble Pardon me, I fixed it :D

[@christopheraviles6848]

6:00 “I’ll avoid talking about the final boss to avoid spoilers” My brother in Christ the game has been out for almost a decade Also holy shit it’s been 8 years. Putting it into words makes it so much weirder

[@the_holland]

That might be true, but I know that at least a few of my watchers are new players, and I myself started playing only about a year and a half ago or so ;)

[@T4coTV]

Loved the video and your solutions. Let's see if any of it makes its way into the 2038 release of Hollow Knight: Silksong 🙏

[@the_holland]

Hey thanks a ton, man! I appreciate that a lot :) 2038 is probably a little bit optimistic, but I'm praying with you 🙏

[@soggyhaybale]

I lost like one thousand times to lost kin because of these jumps that do not have any indication of happening, same with nosk and hornet sentinel, both just jump in unfair positions.

[@the_holland]

I'm so glad you agreed!

[@CamoLoTiProd]

To start off, they aren't updating this game at least until Silksong comes out, if they ever do again, so this won't be fixed, if it truly is a problem. I have a few objections to this notion. First, this is obviously how the creators of this amazing game designed the fights to be, and as players, we should respect that (not that you don't, but that's just a fact). Second, the repositioning makes the characters feel alive and active. If every attack or movement was telegraphed, that would make stuff too easy. I would argue the same thing happens with the few bosses that counterattack. If they didn't, they wouldn't feel responsive and true opponents like they do. Part of the reason HK is so beloved is because of the life and depth of the kingdom, even after the infection has taken over. I get that you may not like it, but I think it's for the games' benefit that the characters reposition. Many heals and other decisions can be made in repositioning, and that's the tradeoff for the lack of a telegraph. Additionally, the thing about learning the characters' movements is that you are to "learn". You are meant to develop your skill and knowledge of how that boss and enemy works over a period of time, especially in the pantheons, which are a further example of why this is a non-issue. If this was truly an issue for more than the 0.01% of players, they wouldn't have done Godhome at all. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts, and while I understand being frustrated, it's on you to learn their movements and abilities and get through it. I hope this makes sense. Edit: On your number 2, that's the point. You aren't meant to be able to "freely" move around in a boss fight. To use your own analogy, a standard dance has a couple of steps or moves that you must follow to do it properly, which restrict your free movement. Take for example, a waltz. In the waltz, you are to step to the beat in a circular motion with your partner, holding them in a certain way depending upon the position you are in with them. This limits your motion, but still the dance is beautiful and lovely. The same logic applies to these boss fights. As a person who has fought for every scrap of fighting talent I have in this game, I like the repositioning as part of the "dance" because it limits me and makes me figure out how to win and survive. Edit #2: Also, there are some attacks that are just as bad as these repositioning "issues" you bring up. Nosk and Flying Nosk have the most random attacks, even with a telegraph. It's really annoying to deal with, and I hate it. I'd argue these kinds of attacks are much worse, but that's my opinion. Edit #3: Also, most players aren't scared of repositioning. It's a fraction of the movement of most bosses and it usually can be avoided anyway if you have decent reflexes and can figure out a boss (As I said earlier, you are meant to learn the boss like you learn anything else in life). 4th Edit: ... just wow. So, you want the game to baby you basically is what you are telling me. I understand what you are getting at, but again, bosses are meant to limit you to certain movements. While I haven't experienced Traitor Lord walking into me (despite facing him dozens and dozens of times), I also have learned how to dodge and anticipate their movements. Many of them are easy enough to know when they'll happen too. The thing is it isn't a problem. For 99% of players, this is perfectly fine and makes the game feel rewarding because it is difficult. I have felt more satisfaction beating a boss after dozens of failures than the first time because I learned how to "git gud!" like hornet says. I learned the boss movements and patterns and I don't have to be worried about their movements like that. The problem is that your solution to this "problem" isn't implementable because it destroys the very nature of the bosses themselves. They are meant to be unique, alive, and reactive, but your solution removes that creativity and thought from them. Having to adjust to defeat the obstacle of the boss is not a bug, it's the feature. Thank you, and I hope that you can understand most players' general views on this through me.

[@the_holland]

Thanks for the comment! 1. Just because the game was designed in one way doesn't make it immune to criticism. 2. If proper telegraphing would make a boss too easy, you could adjust the difficulty in other ways. 3. Counterattacks *are* telegraphed though. You can react to them, which makes them fun. 4. I *do* want bosses to reposition, I just want them to do it fairly. 5. I agree that Nosk and Flying Nosk have some terribly unpredictable attacks, and those are just as bad as poor repositioning moves.

[@CamoLoTiProd]

@ I’d still argue it’s not a problem. I feel like this is just a way to make the game easier. You’re complaining on something that no one else notices or cares about, nor hasn’t for 7+ years at this point. Additionally, you never addressed my critique of your dance metaphor. The problem is that each boss is like a dance, and it isn’t correct to make steps outside of the steps you are meant to take in any specific dance. Bosses limit your movement regardless. Either way, I feel this is actually better for the gameplay. It punishes you for being too aggressive and chasing after a boss or being to timid and hiding in the air. You are meant to be fighting them and not every fight will be in the air or on the ground. Really, I’d argue this is you complaining about something that doesn’t really exist. There have been much worse problems in the game that got fixed and this “problem” (since it’s not one) didn’t.

[@CamoLoTiProd]

@ also, on number 2, how so? On number 3, yeah, and? I can find them annoying. As I said, you can make a blanket explanation of fun that everyone would experience. That’s just inaccurate. Additionally, I talked about how life like the game is because of this movement. This adds depth and real life movement to the characters. People move unexpectedly at millions of times in our lives and we can still perceive that they do. I personally just find your whole premise to be a bit retarded. “Fun” is something that’s different for everyone… duh, and 2 while pogoing is totally meant to be used and often, it’s not the entire gameplay of the game. Many bosses are meant to be dashed through or under and some are meant to be ones where you follow them. There are different styles for each boss, and that’s ok. Just because the player doesn’t have free movement (which technically they never have bc there are obstacles in each level of the game) doesn’t mean it’s bad. In Sisters of Battle, you definitely do not have free movements and I’ve been hit by a Mantis suddenly appearing on one of the sides while I’m there. Does this mean the fight is bad or something, no. I shouldn’t have been near the edge anyway since I know they will spawn there. Lastly, there are spells and abilities to dodge this stuff, like shade cloak and the 2 dive variants. Shade cloak allows you to phase through the area where you dashed and the dive variants give i frames. if need be, you could use them to avoid these repositioning movements, but you don’t think about that. Overall, my opinion is the same as when I first watched your video “This is stupid”. It basically feels like a contrived effort to make the game easier for your benefit, as others have also said below. If you care so much about it, go learn how to make a mod that removes those moves like many people have to the game.

[@the_holland]

@@CamoLoTiProd People definitely care about this issue, there are just also some who think it's not an issue because they've gotten so used to not jumping during fights. In regards to the dancing, I just think you took the dance metaphor in an inappropriate direction. In a dance, you know when you can improvise and when you have to follow through on the current move; that's never a surprise. In Hollow Knight, repositioning moves come out of nowhere, whereas telegraphed moves are telling you: "don't dance out of line now, or you'll get punished!" Look, it's as simple as this: if a boss has a move that you can't react to, it's a bad move. That's all I'm saying.

[@CamoLoTiProd]

@the_holland And I vehemently disagree. The thing is, I was playing some of the bosses these repositioning movements were because I am doing P5 right now, and I'm able to dodge the characters pretty easily, whether by moving a few simple steps or by dashing. I use jumps all the time in fights, but I know when to do it. If someone can't adjust something in a fight after playing the boss, they need to learn how to play a Metroid-Vania game like this. Also, many of the telegraphs are as quick as the non-telegraph moves (looking at hornet sentinel in particular). We will probably have to agree to disagree on this. The last thing is, I have gouged myself on HK content for the past year or so, and I have found nothing even one video or comment talking about this. I don't who you're listening to, but most people don't mind it. I actually enjoy the lifelike movements of bosses in games because it is accurate to what would actually happen in the world. Not everything in that world, or ours for that matter, is telegraphed. That's just not the case. I find it to be great game design, and you don't, so we'll just have to agree-to-disagree.

[@yuscilfer1429]

Collision damage can just be a tackle move and don't need telegraphing, if many people are piss for this very mechanic, TC should just scrap collision damage overall and have a parry system just like in Nine Sols, Nine Sols didn't have collision damage, that's why the parry system is perfect. If they have a parry system in mind, before they release Silksong, they should get rid of collision damage, not to mention that seeing all of Hornet's moveset, she is pretty agile and have a plethora of movement ability that isn't dash and a collision damage would kill her momentum and combo potential.

[@the_holland]

Great point about Silksong! That could seriously end up being a problem

[@celinhooliveira3716]

When the game fight gets too real

[@the_holland]

Ye

[@aidielol]

Gpz would be to EZ

[@the_holland]

Sounds like a dream!

[@tompi2.077]

I honestly think bosses like Broken Vessel or Lost Kin should keep their changing position thingy, my only topic on this is that they should have prefixed spots where they can jump to, for example, for the middle of the arena.

[@the_holland]

That would definitely help, although maybe be a bit static? I also think a longer wind-up animation would help a lot too

[@minionek247]

As someone who has done every boss radiant, Lost Kin is a PRIME example of the issue. Overall, the fight is quite easy; it's easy to get hit by a weird jump but you have a lot of healing opportunities. When it comes to radiant fights, it feels like you're always just praying for no stupid jumps, even when grounded they come out very quick. It's by far the "hardest" attack of Lost Kin. And as many others also said in the comments, Pure Vessel is my favorite boss.

[@the_holland]

Great comment, Minionek - I totally agree! I think you should be on the lookout for my next video pertaining to exactly this issue ;)

[@HuiJi-r2w]

Why do people feel like Lost Kin’s reposition is unfair? Don’t pogo right above them unless you are dodging the attack or know you are safe for the next few seconds or so. If it does it’s reposition jump to land infront of you, walk the other way or use a dash.

[@the_holland]

I challenge you to go fight Lost Kin a dozen times right now on Radiant and tell me how many times you died due to attacks versus repositioning

[@HuiJi-r2w]

@the_holland I did a lot more than 12 radiant lost kin fights just now. I did around 25 of these fights, and I died 3 times to a repositioning attack. All 3 of these deaths happened within the first 10 fights, then I never got hit by it again for the remaining fights. This is why I don’t understand how people struggle with the repositioning attacks. They aren’t hard to avoid and they sometimes allow you to get free hits on the boss.

[@the_holland]

@ I appreciate the effort, and I think to anyone reading that, they're gonna be able to decide for themselves what the problem is ;)

[@74v13r]

i do think this i a real issue, but not one thats applicable to most reposition attacks. Its only on rare occasions were being cautious doesnt feel ok. For me its fine if they dont telegraph their reposotions as long as i can deal dmg to them and punish their attacks effectively. If the best option becomes to pray that they dont reposition bc you've got no better way of dealing dmg, then its unfun (like on traitor lord for example)

[@the_holland]

Fair enough, man. I can see your perspective :)

[@Doge_LXIX]

just move out of the way

[@the_holland]

This video is getting me so much good feedback

[@Wombattuus]

@the_holland Yeah almost as if you're one of few people thinking this is an issue, as other people can dodge this easily and consistently

[@the_holland]

You can make this an ego-thing, but then we're losing the argument in favour of trying to brag to each other

[@Wombattuus]

@the_holland Wtf are you blathering on about? I'm just saying if this "ruins combat", why does everyone find this issue to be non-existent.

[@the_holland]

I'd guess because it's quite a difficult thing to understand. And to differentiate between a good and a bad attack takes thought. Writing "skill issue" is just easier; I even predicted that people would do this in my outro, haha

[@Illy-buni]

is ur argument that jumps arent telegraphed? if so, hornet isnt a good example, as her jumps are telegraphed theyre not given the same amount as another attack, but she crouches ever so slightly before them

[@the_holland]

Yes, yes this is true. You *are* right. But my point is that her telegraph isn't long enough to respond to if you're in the wrong place - say, right above her.

[@Wombattuus]

@the_holland Stop pogoing when it's not necessary. Your gameplay is very painful to watch as you keep pogoing when a simple strike would've been more effective and less risky. Also you could just dash out the way.

[@the_holland]

I'm trying to make a point, good Sir

[@calm2747]

@@Wombattuus let bro play how he wants lil guy

[@Wombattuus]

@@calm2747 Bro can play however he wants as long as he doesn't make a video complaining about how the downsides of how he plays "ruins the game"

[@ibtastico]

I think solutions 1,2 and 4 would make bosses too easy. I think contact damage is there to inhibit the player, specifically to limit their damage output to make bosses harder. Sometimes limiting the player can be good to increase difficulty and not make bosses feel like a pushover.

[@DANIELDAN-p5o]

Also keep uploading,i like your videos!

[@the_holland]

Thanks a lot, Daniel! I really appreciate that ❤️

[@Doxxtrain]

Repositioning moves should only make the boss back away from you, that is why godtamer and broken vessel is annoying sometimes. However, being an efficient killer is also part of hollow knight's skill expression. We all love to see a TAS jump around the boss like a chimpanzee, but knowing what button to press, finding a good time window to attack, and making the most use of that window take skill and are fun as well.

[@the_holland]

I agree with that, definitely! So maybe we could just add half a second to the crouch-down jumping telegraph for bosses like Hornet so the average player also has a chance to react?

[@Doxxtrain]

If you are not constantly chasing down enemies, you will be able to react easily or don't even have to bother with repositions. Repositioning is a punishment for over-agression, just like how parrying by hornet and hollow knight is a punishment for mindlessly mashing attack.

[@the_holland]

@@Doxxtrain I guess that makes sense

[@viniciusserafim5550]

The fights definitely feel unfair when you get hit during the boss' repositioning. Eventually, we get better and don't get hit so often so we can go past most fights with little to no damage taken. However, even after beating P5, the repositioning takes away most of the fun I could otherwise have when learning the fights on Radiant. Even Markoth - which is super difficult and also has a good part of his fight being RNG - feels like it's beatable. Fights like Lost Kin and Hornet 2 make me wanna quit. The regular/ascended fights are SO FUN, but being instakilled by the bosses jumping randomly doesn't feel good nor can be avoided through skill, you just have to play it more patiently/safely which is BORING. Really good video (again)!

[@the_holland]

I agree with you! Very good points

[@Pticman-c8x]

Pogoing in this game is completely broken because it trivialises most of the boss's moves. To change players playstyle they added unreadable jump repositioning to some bosses, so the players would play differently, staying more on the ground and being careful with chaotic jumping. Otherwise players would just pogoing on bosses the whole game.

[@the_holland]

That's an interesting theory, Pticman. I mean that. But still, I think it's a band-aid solution.

[@Pticman-c8x]

@the_holland you have a valid opinion and I don't understand hate in the comment, and yet I have to disagree with you. In some games telegraphed jumping would be a good solution, in HK I think it was an intentional choice. I think pogo attack was designed to be a "reward" to punish bosses for horizontal lunge attacks (which almost all bosses have in the game), so the player could jump over the boss when the boss is dashing toward the player and hit it with a couple Pogo attacks. The problem becomes when it starts to be the dominant strategy, I think it could be easily seen in the watcher knight fight. The optimal strategy is to just pogo the whole fight on them because 3/3 of their attacks are based on ground control while only 1 covers air. While I don't think it is a bad thing to have some bosses designed this way, it is important to keep strategies in check to not make the combat stale. For example you were speaking about hornets. Let's say you make jump telegraphed, what you have as a result is the boss has 5 ground-control attacks (lunge, nail throw, jump-repositioning, air lunge to ground, silk explosion) and 1.5 air-control attacks (silk explosion is mostly used after the initial jump, rarely on the ground). So what do you think would be the strategy if jumps are telegraphed? Just pogo on its head until it dies. Not fun at all. But in the current hornet version, all options to avoid attack (side-walking, jumping or dash on second hornet fight) are equally valid, while pogo remains a good tool to punish dash attack for additional damage.

[@the_holland]

You make good points, but I'm not sure pogo'ing would be as broken as you say. Maybe, but I don't think so. And if it did become the only good way to play, then I would want Team Cherry to redesign the fights to take that into consideration - giving the bosses more air-attacks,

[@aarchibald1980]

@the_hollandthey have that the point of the comment

[@the_holland]

What?

[@genio2509]

From an experienced perspective, you are absolutely right this is a problem. I have done All Bindings (together) in all pantheons, and have no hit every pantheon up to 4 (5 is my current challenge). In my experience with this absurd challenges, the bosses that offer the most choke, aside of the big ones (Zote, Markoth, NKG, PV, AbsRad and Collector on AB) are indeed those that can reposition (Hornet 2, BV/LK, God Tamer, Hive Knight and Traitor Lord) + Marmu because it's just such a stupid boss. Over time I have learned to avoid this, because as a matter of fact, it's not as bad as it seems. But even so, most of these have a reason to do that, and to be fair, it's not a problem for most. The sky is obscenely powerful, the pogo is arguably the best move of the game, second to descending dark, which combo well together, and most bosses, even God Tamer who repositions unfairly, really struggle to punish it. Stopping the player from cheesing a lesser dashing boss (which are those) is actually important, so preventing this from happening is in my opinion, actually good design for that kind of fight (lesser dashing is what I call it). Traitor Lord (major dashing) presents another issue though, his move is not an empty hop, it's a walk into you. While it's stupid, it's not hard to play around, the safe strat is after a landing you hit twice and jump back, after telegraphing you can get more hits in before restarting the process, or cast ddark. This is kinda unfun, but I guess it prevents the simple strat of hit and dash if you want to avoid hits. After I learned how to incorporate more damage like this, he became a non issue, and actually more enjoyable. Other bosses that jump are actually not a problem, Crystal/Enraged Guardian and Nosk always jumping to your current position or the border of the arena, THK always jumping to your side, or Zote and Collector being incorporated in attacks and being predictable. Hornet 2 afterwards, although an issue, it is also easily preventable if you get it, she jumps into your direction, with a small arena, a dash into her direction almost always saves you, and isn't really problematic. The worst offender though, Broken Vessel/Lost Kin, as those empty hops are completely random and have no counter play. The issue isn't the jump as I mentioned, it's the landing. BV can be prevented due to his low HP, but even the it's just down to luck if you dash away or into him, and this is completely unfair. Not all bosses have to be perfect and armonius, some actually benefit from jumping in a way, and I want to bring Pale Prince as an example. U recently finished it radiant, and the fight involves a jump, for the dive attack, and to just move. The dive is always to your position, and is my favorite attack to replanish soul, the jump though is a punish, and is random. The attack only happens if you're on top of the boss during a pause, and it is supposed to be unpredictable to stop you from cheesing the attacks completely. This is what those other bosses want to acomplish in part with the lack of telegraph, but it kinda fails. I think I like the idea of having an indicator, but just of the landing place. In my opinion, BV/LK would be the main benefactors, and I liked the idea of a comment of an infection puddle appearing in the target. Most bosses, while being a preventive attack, rather than a reactionary is not that bad, and in fact, you already prevent some attacks in the game. You don't stay close to the top of Radiance due to the bursts or the nail rain. You don't stay near the end of the Mantis Lords platform to avoid the double dash. You don't stand away of Nosket to avoid a surprise attack. You don't attack PV too much after an attack to avoid a parry. You don't stand in between the nail masters due to the double inward attack. You don't stand next to Sheo due to the fast blue attack. It is part of boss design to have players avoid some attacks or tactics instead of react to them, the problem is the randomness and mainly, Lack of Control of the outcome, that empty hops really show on the landing.

[@the_holland]

Good comment!

[@batsnake__113]

I abosolutetly agree the boss simply walking/jumping just cuz it wanted to is sometimes some of the most frustrating moments in combat (and Hollow Knight is my favorite game gameplay wise) but also not as simple to work around. That's kinda the reason why I stopped trying to radiant bosses when I got to marmmu (who isn't even a repositioning case and is just a boss with a very unpredictable movement) while the first boss I tried radiant was PV, Hollow Knight combat is at its best when it's this really nice really challeging quick act and response and at its worse when you feel like you're just praying you get good enough rng (this is also why I think Markoth is the worst boss in the game) It's complex, as all attacks have some level of rng down to what attack the boss will use next and it's good cuz it keeps the combat fresh and avoids it becoming too predictable, but there's like this slider of when too much rng starts making the boss less fun to engage with.

[@the_holland]

Hi Batsnake! I agree with you when you say that... 1. It's not an easy problem to fix. 2. Marmmu is frustratingly unpredictable. 3. Hollow Knight is at its best when it involves quick responses. 4. RNG keeps bosses fresh. Which is a long way of saying I loved reading your comment, and I agree with you 100%!

[@geolbaker]

“Guys. There’s an issue with games. The bosses are too difficult. My solution you may ask? Well it’s very simple you see. What we need to do is make a new baby mode and add invulnerability.” Mate, speaking honestly, stick to FarmVille.

[@the_holland]

No but see, if we *just* add invulnerability, we'd still have to beat the boss. You can't be thinking like this. We *also* have to reduce the boss' health to 1, so he dies in a single strike. Now THAT would be fun!

[@romankhamov6229]

What a productive comment. You are ignoring games like Dark Souls, arguably the core DNA of Hollow Knight. It has no contact damage, and the bosses are just as hard, and positioning is just as important. Rhe most important point: playing SAFE is NOT FUN, skillfully RESPONDING to a boss is fun.

[@rhettpilcher469]

Telegraphing these moves would make bosses more readable for sure, I'm guessing it was more of a design choice to make the bosses less predictable and more threatening that also incentivizes you to learn their movement patterns. I see your points tho and I respect you putting them out despite the inevitable brainrot in the comments. You are sure getting a lot of interactions for the algorithm!

[@the_holland]

Wow, thanks for being so cordial. I really appreciate that! And yeah, I guess you're right about the algorithm ':D

[@PureVoidChaos]

This is really cool, you should team up with some modders! I do, however, disagree with the teleportation point. Not all bosses should teleport. I’d say bosses should just wiggle a bit before jumping!

[@the_holland]

I totally agree with that! Not all bosses should teleport - and I like your solution far better too, making bosses indicate when they're about to jump. I would absolutely love to get in contact with a modder. That would be like the most awesome thing ever!!

[@MelodiCat753]

I do think the repositions being untelegraphed add a certain bit of spice to the fights that wouldn't be there if telegraphed. But perhaps a better balance could have been founded, as I remember complaining a lot on my first playthrough "the boss jumped right into me!" Yet predicting where the boss will jump can be fun. It means HK has both reaction and prediction to its fights, which are both interesting skills. As another commenter said, you have to "get into the boss's head." Indirectly, you have to feel the code, ha ha. Thought as you do point out, part of me "getting better" at hollow knight was losing my more ariel playstyle. Losing it made me feel more controlled, which could be more in the game's nature, yet I made this change mostly because of the reposition moves (which I called jumps in my head). 11:25 I disagree that predicting repositions is fear and luck. If you change your playstyle, you can give yourself room to have time to predict where someone would land. The bit of trajectory judging you have to do in your head based on split-second info can be fun! To conclude, while I love the fights like NKG and HK/PV that feel like a dance, having a bit of prediction in HK's gameplay to me is part of the fun, and I really enjoy the variety that fights like Hornet give even if I want some of the fights to also be purely reactionary dances. The prediction fights to me can be a bit more exciting to refight because they feel less mechanical. EDIT: A solution I see that feels more in Hollow Knight's spirit is that instead of telegraphs for repositions, repositions could have to happen after X amount of time since the last one, meaning you can predict if it will be safe to be ariel. This is already how the game feels to me, but a bit too on the random side.

[@the_holland]

That solution you proposed is actually quite genius! How come I never thought of that? Nice!

[@sushiverses_photos-and-videos]

I do agree that repositioning moves are an attack, but if your going to class them as an attack, LEARN THEM LIKE ONE. It's not that hard to beat these bosses. (except for markoth.) But for literally every other boss in the game you can work around these moves and dodge them, just like a regular attack. And you can learn when to be in the air and when not to be in the air, just then learning when to dash, and when to run. It's the same thing. You just have to learn it like an attack and dodge it like you would an attack. Also you don't need a telegraph to know when an attack is going to occur and you can also just react to the attack happening. (I'm referring to repositioning moves)

[@the_holland]

Name one attack without a telegraph that you can "just react to"

[@sushiverses_photos-and-videos]

@the_holland False knights jumping repositioning attack. There is no telegraph, but even just being on top of him pogo'ing him you can react fast enough to just, shade dash out of the way.

[@the_holland]

@@sushiverses_photos-and-videos That's a repositioning move, not an attack

[@sushiverses_photos-and-videos]

@the_holland Says the one calling repositioning moves attacks????

[@the_holland]

​@@sushiverses_photos-and-videos You stated that "(...) you don't need a telegraph to know when an attack is going to occur (...)" I'm asking you to defend that position by giving me an example of an attack that you can "just react to"

[@Gastro-enterite-en-imax]

What bosses except hornet and broken vessel jumps/reposition like that? Cause to me, the telegraphs are the arc itself. The beginning of the jump is not telegraph yes, but right after the jump, i can prediction there location pretty easely. It prevent pogo spam and even then, its not that fun to pogo far above the air against these 2. I would understand the fun of pogoing certain bosses like soul master and such but hornet and bv? I cant seem to think of a single other boss that do this

[@the_holland]

Hive Knight, Hollow Knight, Crystal Guardian, Brooding Mawlek, Collector, Nosk, Zote~ :')

[@Gastro-enterite-en-imax]

@ You litterally made a point that brooding mawlek has a good repositionning jump, and is always predictable, You cant pogo crystal guardian and your always just beside him so you never get hit by the jump Collector? No? His only attacks are jumping around in the same pattern and jumping in your direction and trying to grab you Nosk your always in the little safe space and it cant hit you and even if your not, nosk always jump right after an attack, and he jumps always on top of you so ITS either at isnt repositionning, its an attack Zote The jump is an attack. He always does 3 and does waves. Zote is always jumping around, so ITS not repositionning I NEVER seen hive knight hit me while jumping and i dont think he does it too much. Its also kinda slow so its easely predictable (and he flips in his animation so its easier to predict) Hollow knight is FAR TO SLOW to even be a threat. Apart from bv (and hornet, but imo its not really a problem with her but i can understand for some people) there is no other boss with this problem.

[@the_holland]

Right, Mawlek does it better than most. He doesn't do it perfectly, though. I hope it didn't sound like I thought that. All the other bosses I mentioned definitely commit the crime of poor repositioning :)

[@akidothompson]

Bro just hug the boss then if they jump just chase and if they walk which is not a thing for most bosses then you know NOT to hug the boss.

[@the_holland]

Maybe

[@vinii2815]

i just wish they could find a different way to make bosses, having a passive hitbox is just extremely annoying specially on stagger animations, GPZ has hit me countless times when he staggers cause he JUMPS and hits me midair

[@the_holland]

Absolutely agree with you, Vinii. Definitely wish there was a better solution (and I'm positive there is)