The Roasted Wheel: a Burning Wheel critique

[@jaadus]

12:23 the only take that i would really argue against. i think "you don't need a reward to roleplay your character" is fine, but it separates the roleplaying from the game, and burning wheel is a game about integrating those two things. artha is there to give you mechanical incentive, something you *need* for advancement, as motivation to engage with your character's flaws and pursue their beliefs. which i think is the #1 distinguishing factor for me, compared to other rpgs where you can describe your character one way, but only play them that way when it's convenient with 0 consequence.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

It's because some people are trying to "win the game" when playing RPGs. That is a problem in itself. They are missing the point.

[@lastburning]

​@@reactionaryprinciplegaming People do what the system encourages them to do. I don't know why I'm bothering to even say this to you though. I'm gonna leave now and forget you exist.

[@sikira28]

You're quite correct when it comes to the pretentious nature of the naming and some of the systems. In a game already this loaded with complexity there is no justification, it mostly exists as a testiment to Crane's hipster nature. I've found burning wheel to require quite a bit of learning to "get", mostly using old forums and such to comprehend. A lot of the book is written in a way where you have to read between the lines to understand the systems and how they're actually used. The formatting of the book does not help. Regardless I think it has high value in being a system that uses mechanics to enforce a particular playstyle and rp rather than hoping it happens. The concepts introduced are applicable, effective and serve great outside of burning wheel as well. In fact I've mostly found use for burning wheel in applying its concepts to other systems I play, ironically one of the faults of bw seems to be that despite the cleverness of the system it's rather hard to find a proper long running game of it. I've come to think of it more like a game design/game running philosophy book than a system. The codex companion book has a lot of useful material that seems to lean in that direction and is superior to the main book.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

For all it's fault, the Burning Wheel is probably my biggest inspiration when I'm designing my own game, WinterDawn. It was closed to greatness.

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

An interesting follow-up. Can't wait for the Torchbearer episode. 👍

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

I'd like to do it, but I might to spread those around a bit.

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming Of course. Something to look forward to.

[@OuterCraft]

I do agree with lots of your points about unnecessary complexity and terms, but Artha (and BITS) is what defines burning wheel. I've played quite a bit of the system, and Artha is an effective motivator to encourage players to push their characters. Artha is pretty much the grease that gets the metaphorical wheel moving.

[@baktubak]

Absolutely fantastic analysis. Very Poignant. Just finished first chapter or so of Torchbearer, and a lot of my thoughts mirror this. Especially the confusing unnecessary names. New concepts deserve new names, old concepts deserve familiar names. You cannot make an old concept appear new and fresh by giving it a new name. It is simply confusing, and I found myself renaming half of the terms in the book as I went through it. Excellent suggestions for reducing the cognitive load. These days I like my games to be easily digestible by a newcomer in a single afternoon. If it takes more than 20 minutes to onboard, it is too complicated. Five minutes is even better. That is why I really like Roll n Write games lately, they condense everything from a game into a much more digestible fun experience that is often superior to the original game. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Thank you. I think Torchebearer did solve some issues with the system and I really like the concept of conditions that you get every time you make a roll. "New concepts deserve new names, old concepts deserve familiar names" is a good way to put it.

[@ZolYinPodcast]

No doubt the OGL really had an effect on ShadowDark. It really was the perfect combination for everything. Yes, absolutely her being a woman and having multiple minority statuses had a tremendous effect. I also believe her background with Gygax gave her more cache with the audience. She was also well liked by the 5E crowd in general. She did a good job by not alienating gamers either by keeping quiet about politics. She either does her research or had a consultant inform her. There’s quite more I can say but then this comment would be a mile long. 😂 Kickstarter also promoted her game on the front page for a few hours apparently so that effects the sales for sure.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Yeah, like the perfect storm. Do you think Kickstarter promoted her project because of her minority statutes? We know that KS is pretty woke so, that could have had a compounding effect.

[@robnecronomicon1570]

Nice one. You should offer to rewrite the next version for him, lol. Luke Crane has a knack for making the simple rather complex. He did that with his OSR game that was set in France. Everything was fine and rather slick actually, until he started adding in unnecessary sub-systems. Of course, you could slice these out, but I'd rather get a game that was right from the start, as I'm lazy.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

I doubt Luke would take me on the offer. We have this saying that goes, "complexity appeals to simple minds".

[@robnecronomicon1570]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming I know, he's a total 'scold as well - So who'd want to work with him,lol. Indeed. overcomplicating a game for no good reason seems very silly.

[@quickanddirtyroleplaying]

Good critique. As you stated in the video, calculating the world is a job for computers, not human beings. As far as shades go, those are special rules that can be reserved for characters and creatures beyond human capability (doing a task on a lighter shade trait is just easier for them compared to their human counterparts of the same rating). Last but not least, if Artha can be changed to Grit, I think that'd be a more sensible meta-currency that has an in-game justification.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

You're right, shades can be mostly ignored as they only come in play later, but then, they should be explained in the books as a separate section. Maybe you could just have system where you put one or two * next to the skill; with *, you count three as successes, with ** you also count 2 as successes. Then you can ignore the whole "oh, the skill is g5"; your skill would just be 5, and you have a * next to it, so you know what that means, but until you get your first *, don't worry about it.

[@quickanddirtyroleplaying]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming Yeah, seeing the exponents listed as "B5" or "G4" made the character sheet look like a Bingo sheet.

[@lemonice7536]

Just bought this, and I annotated the first 75 pages. My main games have been Mörk/Cy_Borg and Cyberpunk Red and Burning Wheel was written in a combative ponderous way as if its creators were moonlighting their disdain for any readers of the work. I would enjoy a lot of the mechanics. I think they seem fun, but the terminology was so obtuse, and having reference charts slows that game so much. I like the game mechanics enough to see it through another session, but I feel the book needs both rule simplification and reformatting because having the middle of the book lists is just annoying.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

There is a game called "Streets of Perils" that seems to take a lot of the good mechanics from Burning Wheel and cut the needless bloat. I have it here but I haven't looked too much into it. Eventually, I will make a video about it.

[@SHONNER]

8:30 Obstacle. In my mind, that word is Blockage. Target Number sounds more legit though.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

I remember in your commentary on my original video, you got bother by this term, rightfully so. It's just different for difference's sake.

[@sameldji2479]

Thats a great critique!

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Oh, thanks. It means a lot coming from you; I know you were a big proponent of that game. When are you coming back to KZbin?

[@sameldji2479]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming Je ne reviens pas sur KZbin vraiment; je commence un podcast sur spotify à la place!

[@BillWiltfong]

I really appreciated the language lesson. Tray bee in, moan frair.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

C'est mon plaisir. Bienvenue.

[@hungarthestarvarian6910]

good show

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Thanks buddy.

[@SHONNER]

20:19 So after your fixes are applied, what RPG system would you say this game becomes?

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Burning Wheel second edition? Hehe! What do you think; would those changes make the game more manageable?

[@SHONNER]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming It's complicated to say. I may have to do a video about the topic.

[@MartijnVos]

Yeah, Burning Wheel is definitely not a "less is more" type of game. Especially for granularity. It loves excessive amounts of granularity. I love Beliefs. That's the game I want to play. But everything else seems to get in the way. Too many skills, too many types of artha (and why is it even called "artha"?), too many awkward terms trying to make everything as unintuitive as possible. It feels like there's an absolutely beautiful game in there that has gotten buried under too much stuff that are not the reason I'm playing this game.

[@jademonolith]

I gave up on the Fight subsystem. Such an unecessary convoluted system. Also FoRK is such an American contraction more than anything else

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

American contraction? What do you mean? I always thought that "fork" meant just that, a fork.

[@jademonolith]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming i can't tell if you are being tongue in cheek but it's Fields of Related Knowledge, right? :)

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

@@jademonolith Oh damn, you're right. I had forgotten. I read it and forgot it right away.

[@jademonolith]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming yeah, it's really difficult to recall stuff from the book because of the way it's written. BTW, GREAT review, and I will give Burning Wheel another chance and see if it works for my group lol

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

@@jademonolith Thank you, and good luck.

[@finlayrobertson1355]

I think if you actually play the game you may see why some of the mechanics work the way they do

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Yeah? Which one do you think I got the most wrong?

[@finlayrobertson1355]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming the mechanics are interconnected in ways that means changes you suggested have wider reaching repercussions is all I'm saying. The game you want is probably the fan made hot circle or possibly one I think is called the gold hack

[@SHONNER]

17:08 This game looks like it was written by committee. Was Luke Crane really a roleplayer? I have my doubts now.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

I think Crane is probably surrounded by a bunch of yes-man who are afraid to tell him that some of his ideas are bad or need more work.

[@SHONNER]

@@reactionaryprinciplegaming I remember he had a huge following on his KZbin channel.

[@ImNoclue]

It was written by Luke.

[@jademonolith]

I felt at this point, Crane is just trolling with this subsystem

[@SHONNER]

5:28 I think you are the only human that sees the flaws in Burning Wheel. Everyone else I know says how genius it is and how flawless the rules are. Yet, they either can't get a game to work or they can't grasp what the rules are saying because the game is better than them in their eyes.

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

The Burning Wheel is a very polarising game: some people hate it, some see it as the most clever design ever. I try to look at it objectively, and not get influenced by the big personality of the author.

[@BanjoSick]

Just read The Burning Wheel and totally agree with the pretentious bs in the whole system. Character Burning 🤦🏻‍♂🤦🏻‍♂🤦🏻‍♂. Going back to Rolemaster!

[@reactionaryprinciplegaming]

Rolemaster is one I never got my hands on. I need to check it out someday.