The Role of Carbon FIber Plates in Running Shoes - Science Friday

In our latest Science Friday - our first ever KZbin edition! - editor Matt Klein talks about what the carbon fiber plates are and their role in today's growing super shoe market.
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Doctors of Running aims to use knowledge of human movement, clinical biomechanics and performance to bring you cutting edge reviews, science and knowledge. Featuring reviews of the latest shoes and shoe technology from the perspective of physical therapy professionals.
Matthew Klein, PT - Chief editor, founder
Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT)
Board Certified Orthopedic Clinical Specialist (OCS)
Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists (FAAOMPT)
Nathan Brown PT - Chief contributor
Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT)
Masters in Anatomy and Clinical Health Science (MS)
Movement Performance Institute Certified in Advanced Functional Biomechanics
David Salas PT - Chief contributor
Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT)
Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS)

[@kofuzi]

Always great to hear from the good doctors, especially on this topic

[@terryreilly56]

The simple explanation of the proper utilization/application of the carbon plate concept is appreciated greatly. What I want is an app that I can use to retroactively apply the benefits of a carbon plate racing shoe to my racing times of 40 years ago! I am sure I would have been all about the hype! Great report.

[@yomchadash]

very true, i recently started running in the adizero pro, definitely something to get used to, but feel the energy return at higher speeds, especially at longer distance.

[@1980fack1025]

Love this video!! More please!!! This type of stuff is what shoe reviews are missing IMO and I eat this stuff up. I have the New Balance RC Elite and I’ve noticed that if I run too much at my easy paces I start to get peroneal tendon or big toe muscle niggles. After watching this I’m 100% convinced that this is because it’s too stiff for my easy paces and it’s forcing my stabilizers to do all sorts of weird things. If I’m spending lots of time in workouts at various race paces with standing/walking recovery or short jogging recoveries (or floating recoveries) I don’t get those same niggles, in fact my post workout recovery is magically shorter. Really interesting stuff!! I only use them on occasion, favoring traditional shoes for most everything else (Altra Torin Plush, Escalante Racer, and NB Rebels).

[@cameronthaijohnson]

I think that is part of why the Endorphin Speed is so popular. Obviously the price point, design, and midsole plays into it as well, but relative to a lot of these other shoes the nylon plate does seem to work a lot better for a ton of people that aren't running as fast as well as a lot of fast training miles.

[@lvalday]

Great video! I run in plated shoes (both carbon and nylon) and I do feel faster in them (but that might be the midsole component and not the plate itself). I don't use carbon plated for training regularly but this past week I did a lot of fast runs in next% and 4% fk and some other runs in nylon plated shoes (Endorphin speed and glideride) and I noticed a little pain in my arch. Could this be a product of using stiffer shoes too much? Is it just overtraining or weakness? Thanks doc!

[@Habibapotamus1]

How does the runner's weight relate to the use of the plate? If a heavier runner runs at a slower pace can the extra weight help load the plate?

[@today-nl]

I like this view from science!

[@rlshultz5841]

You only address speed benefits but injury protection is the reason I use and a real consideration.

[@Ben-yw8be]

Yes sir. I only race in carbon fiber plated shoes up to the half marathon distance where faster leg turnover is required. For the marathon I prefer dual density foam like the Superblast or the Lightstrike Pro and Lightstrike combo.

[@dakzer55]

Thanks for discussing this controversial subject. One reason I am leaning towards carbon plate trail running shoes, is because I find shoes like inov-8 have very little support/stability, and hoping that the stiffening of the sole with carbon plates helps to stabilise the foot more, and also help prolong the rigidity life of the shoes. As I find minimalist shoes such as inov-8 tend to loose their stiffness over time. Thanks again 👍

[@geronim042]

That makes a lot of sense especially the conclusion... testing is key. I found out that a pair of Solarboost 3 I used as a slow / daily trainer was very harsh on my feet (right one actually). When I look at it, is a big heavy bulky shoe, with a firm boost sole.... and a very rigid torsion system. Mtp joint paint, niggle around my talus... Weird choice that I think echo with your video here.

[@bongrobs]

thank you :)

[@bluebirdrunningcompany1840]

What does the literature say about not just the force of the runner and its effect on the plate, but force + plate + surface (and motion)? The plate is sandwiched between the runner and the surface; carbon plates work better against a hard surface, such as asphalt, which is why we’ve seen the technology applied most notably in racing shoes designed for the road. How do you apply the laws of motion in respect to your evaluation? Thanks!

[@THEJMILLSBAND]

Great video, I am former 10,000m and marathon competitor (lower 2:20's).I retired about 2.5 years ago and have been nursing two bulging discs. I found it was less painful to jog than to walk since I wasn't able to stand straight up for two years. Anyway I have been running in Alphafly shoes and can you tell me if they lower the ground impact force? I know my ground contact time is around 312ms.There may be a medical benefit, but I,m not 100%

[@AkerraNicholson]

I also have disc issues. I have felt a difference with the New Balance 1080v11.

[@1980fack1025]

Also, I remember seeing a slide from a Nike presentation at some sort of Canadian footwear conference showing running economy improvements with various plate conditions (including straight, moderate curve, extreme curve, and maybe even plateless). By far the extreme curve produced the best running economy, which is why the vaporfly 4% had that geometry. So I don’t think the plate only contributes 1% (otherwise different plate conditions would produce similar results), and I don’t think it’s just the foam (otherwise the Zoom Fly would produce the same results as the Vaporfly), but I think the plate is needed to “tune” the foam for optimal running economy.

[@AcostaJason]

Zoom Fly is react foam, not ZoomX. So that supports the claim that foam makes a difference. I agree from what I have read that the curvature of the plate makes a significant difference.

[@1980fack1025]

@@AcostaJason I know, I phrased my reply incorrectly. I should’ve said that if it was just the foam then the running economy improvements from other plate conditions should be similar, but they weren’t. The extreme curve produced far better economy than other plate conditions. The foam does matter, that’s where the zoom fly comes into play (namely it doesn’t have the same effect despite similar shoes otherwise), but it’s not JUST the foam or mainly just the foam. This is one where the sum is a total of the parts, you can’t have one and not the other.

[@gilbert2303]

If I have hallux rigidus, I’d this another good option other then a hoka meta rocker

[@mgbunblee]

Would a carbon fiber insole do the same thing?

[@ourwilliam2405]

So what pace per mile suits these trainers?

[@Bohonk212]

Anyone else get hot feet from carbon fiber plates? On my AT thru hike I could only do about 4 hours before my forefeet started burning unbearably. Plates under insoles of course. Hot foot stopped immediately after removing the plates.

[@francescobroggini7657]

A topic for Science Friday - differences between EVA, TPU and PB midsoles

[@MadelnMachines]

What about heavier runners going slower. They're going to be putting more force through the shoe just due to the increased weight. I'm nt sure if this would be to a similar extent to a light person running faster or not.

[@chefyakusdopeassfoodshow6896]

So basically, unless you’re running sub 9 miles it doesn’t make sense to get carbon plated shoes?