The 'Rose Without A Thorn' Killed While Still A Girl | Katherine Howard | Henry VIII's Fifth Wife

Katherine Howard was Henry VIII's youngest, and most tragic wife. She was born into the nobility, but lived a childhood devoid of love, attention, and was neglected by those who were meant to care for her, leaving her vulnerable to the attentions of men. When she became England's queen, her desire for the wrong kind of attention left her open to a dangerous game with her lover, and would end on the executioner's axe...
For my images and footage, thanks to:
Pexels
Pixabay
Wikimedia Commons, especially:
Bernard Gagnon
Ricardalovesmonuments
Many of my images in this video were made with Midjourney, see if you can spot which ones!
I strive to always credit everyone whose images I use, and try as much as possible to use images freely in the public domain (purchased where not possible) - please let me know if I have missed you so I can give you due credit.

[@danyf.1442]

People say "it was a different time"...I still think she was a child, used and abused by older men since she was 13. Poor thing had no clue what she had gotten herself into. Her story is the most tragic among all the wives, even more than Anne Boleyn.

[@Celeste-bx8my]

Yes

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

I'm glad someone besides myself thinks this way.

[@jmwilliamsart]

@@user-fg9xz4bz3bI most certainly agree, thankfully her real story can be told.

[@user-ym3xf6xp4c]

She was too young to die that way.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Absolutely! Even in the 16th century, people around Katherine definitely knew they were taking advantage of her and turned a blind eye or carried on.

[@VersieKilgannon]

If there's a Hell, I'm sure Henry VIII is there, not because he's not Catholic but because of how he treated his own family...

[@KDSima]

Yes, KH8 was bad. But, his head injuries, especially the one in January 1536, may have been the cause of his crazy.

[@PhDrSeuss]

​​@@KDSima head injuries hmmmm 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

[@KDSima]

@@PhDrSeuss it is true. If u care u can read the following articles -Quartz by Olivia Goldhill February 6, 2016; -Discover, By Emilie Le Beau Lucchesi Aug 3, 2022 6:00 AMAug 2, 2022 1:54 PM -Himmelfarb Library News. Disorder in the Court #9: Traumatic Brain Injury, rgbril January 23, 2023 The Himmelfarb article discusses Richard Ramirez, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and Ed Gein. Four well known US Serial Killers. The other two articles are about KH8. Henry went from being fairly reasonable, even tempered king to a murderous tyrant who killed upward of 55,000 people in fairly short order.!

[@KDSima]

@@PhDrSeuss Yes. If you are interested in it there are a number of articles that discuss it. Live Science, Head Case: Henry VIII Beheaded Wives Due to Head Injuries? By Sara G. Miller. February 10, 2016; Discover, By Emilie Le Beau Lucchesi Aug 3, 2022 6:00 AMAug 2, 2022 1:54 PM; GW Himmelfarb Health Sciences Library Disorder in the Court #9: Traumatic Brain Injury Author rgbrill Published on January 23, 2023 I don’t do the greatest job with sourcing information; but I think it is all there. The Himmell article is actually about four well known US serial killers, and their brain injuries.

[@KDSima]

@@PhDrSeuss if u r interested in the possibility there is a lot of information available. It is a real thing. Well documented by a number of scholars and neurologists.

[@CaraHTheRealCie]

She wasn't stupid. She was a traumatized teenager with nobody to stand up for her or teach her how to take care of herself and her own best interests. She was used and abused by many predatory men.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Agreed - I do make that very clear in the video. My thumbnails for this series are using words that have been used to describe Henry's queens, rather than my own feelings on them.

[@gergsbane]

Please clarify the distinction between being stupid your statement. Intelligence is typically defined as: the capacity for abstraction, logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, critical thinking, and problem-solving.

[@anniebale4343]

A child who was never allowed to simply grow and flourish. The way she was taken advantage of by everyone around her was a travesty.

[@jmwilliamsart]

I know right, at least now her story can be told truthfully. I’m thinking of writing a fanfic in which my male lead goes back in time and he and Katherine fall in love. Katherine comes with the guy back to the future so that they can be together, and get married.

[@michellerenner6880]

She was chattel

[@Tally-vision]

That has been true of many children and most female children for a very long time.

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Katherine Howard didn’t deserve the fate she got.

[@jmwilliamsart]

She certainly did not, that poor girl deserved so much better, she deserved love and happiness.

[@Celeste-bx8my]

@@jmwilliamsart most definitely, although she may have done wrong by the law at the time she was still a teenager and should not have been punished that harshly

[@kimm.8800]

I agree: in her situation, I would have done the same. It was natural for her to want to experience love and desire with someone of her own choice, and there was nothing wrong to cheat in an arranged marriage.

[@Celeste-bx8my]

@@kimm.8800 definitely

[@bevalee1533]

​@@jmwilliamsart- Id say most of us deserve love & happiness. Some actually luck up and get it. A portion that group, have love, protection and happiness, but fail to realize and appreciate and respect what their husbands have given them. And use their safe position, while harming / injuring others that are not so fortunate. I myself never found love and happiness. I was young and naive .... Intelligent, talented but very naive. I did learn though ...i had to deal with a few harrowing events, and think things thru very carefully. I didnt mean to write such a long message. Please understand your comment struck a chord in me.

[@Irish_Georgia_Girl]

Poor sweet young girl. She obviously had a heart of gold. I have always heard that however vapid and silly she may have acted in life, she died with dignity... every bit a Queen. RIP Queen Katherine. ❤❤❤

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

She does seem to have been a very kind-hearted girl who just behaved...like a teenager with no guidance, and honestly, I wish I could reach through the ages and give her a hug because she seems so alone at times.

[@karengilliland2439]

A sad story of a neglected, sexually abused child who was basically forced to marry an obese, smelly, old man, found love in all the wrong places, and paid a heavy price for her poor choices.

[@purrdiggle1470]

Beginning in grade school and through getting a bachelor's degree (biology) I never once had a teacher who cared a whit about having students learn dates for historical events. But, situations like the ones that arose in Henry VIII's court amply illustrate why dates should be emphasized. If you read a history of Henry and you don't learn day-month-year dates, you can easily get the wrong idea about how long it took him to dispatch his wives. It all happened fairly quickly once Henry laid eyes on Anne Boleyn. But, without knowing exact dates, you can easily get the impression that it must have taken decades and decades.

[@annanardo2358]

Your teacher needed to "go back to school"and further HIS/HER education then. 😱😱😱

[@naptownt7197]

I'm so glad I was educated in a time when history and dates were important.

[@evestree]

Finding compassion for her is a sign that humanity is evolving. For how many hundreds of years was she blamed for her fate vs understood as an abused neglected child?

[@jmwilliamsart]

Katherine deserved better than this, she deserved love and happiness.

[@evestree]

@@jmwilliamsart planet earth, its not always a happy loving place lol

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's, as you say, a good sign that humanity is becoming more passionate. Even at her own death, Katherine warned people not to 'follow her example', and felt she was a 'fallen woman'.

[@kimm.8800]

I agree: in her situation, I would have done the same. It was natural for her to want to experience love and desire with someone of her own choice, and there was nothing wrong to cheat in an arranged marriage. She was guilty of adultary: but in her case, there was nothing morally wrong with it.

[@jmwilliamsart]

@@evestreeThat doesn’t mean that we can’t try to make it a much nicer, happier place.

[@user-ym3xf6xp4c]

Ironically. She would probably have had healthy children. Henry mustve had brain rot.

[@francesmeyer8478]

There is an argument for that!🇺🇸

[@MFLimited]

I think he was a psychopath as well as lost his marbles, at that point

[@mimiclout4792]

I wonder if that was why she slept around. She knew the importance of giving Henry a son,and cullpepper was very similar in colouring and genetics. ?

[@MeMe-nw9mq]

I think that by the time King Henry VIII married Katherine Howard, he was completely impotent. Grossly overweight, more than likely had high blood pressure, diabetes type II, both of which will render a man impotent. Even the pain of a stasis ulcer with a constant drainage of foul smelling pus. Henry had rotting parts, but it wasn’t necessarily his brain.

[@fc7307]

This could be true, as Henry enjoyed jousting when he was younger. He had hit his head many times and we know right now that head injuries can change a person's behavior.

[@skaisnotdead]

I always feel so bad for Katherine. Her story is nothing but tragic.

[@lefantomer]

Henry 8, like his father, was a waste of breathing space.

[@altinaykor364]

@@lefantomer imagine being so petty to put your wrong agenda on what's not even the subject of talk

[@mariealexander9545]

poor Katherine she had no love in her life, and she was groomed by older men she mistook sex for love and there are a lot of women who made the same mistake.

[@raysand2557]

I always felt terribly sorry for her. Henry VIII was such a cruel man.

[@stacyforesmandefenbaugh4374]

I feel bad for all Henry VIII’s wives. I don’t think he treated any of them right. It was sad that in that time being married at 12/13 was far too common. But, in that time, a person’s life span wasn’t what it is now. I do have to admit that this is my favorite time period to read about.

[@ml-kt9rj]

One thing I noticed is that all the wives look extremely similar. Its possible that Katherine most likely looked like Anne Boleyn. Maybe that could have been the other reason why portraits of her were also burned.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

They were related, so it's possible there were some prevailing family features that were prominent for both of them.

[@here_we_go_again2571]

Poor child! Katherine Howard was abused and used her entire short life. 😒

[@JangianTV]

Truly one of English history's most tragic women. 😞

[@Courtneybenson907]

It sort of makes sense now, Katheryn, someone with daddy issues, and Henry, someone with mommy issuses. I don't know why I never thought of it that way before.

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

How do you figure that henry viii had mommy issues?

[@Courtneybenson907]

@@user-fg9xz4bz3b He lost his mother at a young age, who he was close too, and had a difficult relationship with his father.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Broken people often find each other in life - just a shame that one of them was a monarch used to casually being rid of people who had 'wronged' him.

[@altinaykor364]

The most heartbreaking part is that she seemed to really care for Henry, even if it wasn't in spouse romantic way and was more of her longing to be loved and get attention from someone, especially such a powerful💔 Despite her tragic end and all circles of abuse she unknowingly endured her whole life and maybe even an unhappy afterlife, we still should remember this detail: She was a karma for Henry for the way he treated every other of his wives! while in other cases it was him cheating on his wife and humiliating her, with Katherine Howard however, pages turned around and he finally faced what it felt like to be second or even last choice for your spouse, he faced the suffering he had put on every other of his wives and if you ask me, a perfect circle of life, even though it would've been better had Katherine survived😢

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're right - even though it ended in the death of poor Katherine Howard, at least Henry got to feel something of the pain he caused his wives. It definitely became something that dwelled on his mind as he grew closer to death, and I'll cover that in Katherine Parr's story. 😊

[@altinaykor364]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople oh, I'm looking forward to it💗💗💗

[@jmwilliamsart]

@@HistorysForgottenPeopleIndeed, Henry deserved to suffer. I hope that there’s a way to give Katherine’s spirit the love that she was denied in life so that her spirit will find peace. I’m thinking of writing a fanfic in which a decent guy from our time gets sent back to Katherine’s time and they fall in love. He finds a way to bring her back to the future with him so that she can avoid her tragic fate. They will definitely get married in his time since she will be of legal age 18-19. It will be challenging to help her adjust to modern times, but he will be there for her every step of the way.

[@annanardo2358]

And it would have been even better if Henry had a stroke and Katherine become Queen of England !!! But sadly, it was not to be.😡. just saying

[@jmwilliamsart]

@@annanardo2358Indeed, and she hopefully would’ve found herself a decent lover for a change, someone who truly loves her.

[@honey-feeney9800]

I have sincere sympathy for all of the six wives of Henry VIii

[@Caninecancersucksrocks]

Poor Katherine - her story has always been one of the ones that truly hit the hardest. The reality is, she was a very immature, VERY young poorly educated teenager, who was taken advantage of, sexually groomed & abused, SA’d, and because it all was happening in such an important time for her developmentally, I think it’s quite clear that the early abuse severely impacted her - she was so thirsty for love that she did what many of the basically powerless women did in that time - she used her body to get attention and equated sexual abuse with affection. She and Thomas both were honestly pretty much still children, and I think her eventual death can be clearly laid directly at the feet of the Countess, Norfolk and the revolting bloated & stinking despot lunatic of a King. I suspect she was honestly just glad to finally be free of all the pain, fear and uncertainty. RIP Katherine. You poor child, you absolutely deserved better.

[@hollyoconnor2745]

Out of all of Henry the VIII's wives, Katherine Howard was THE most unlucky one of them all. Used, abused, manipulated, and throw out like trash. One has to wonder; what would have happened if she hadn't been mistreated in her early years of life. Things would have definitely been different for her

[@jmwilliamsart]

I feel so awful for Katherine, she didn’t deserve any of this. That damn Cranmer he used Katherine to take down the Howard family faction.

[@ronaldmessina4229]

holly I am completely in accord with you, enrique 8 was a very bad tryant, a womanizer and a jerk, poor Katherine Howard

[@MFLimited]

I think his treatment of Catherine Aragon was disgusting, and his treatment of Ann Boleyn was terrifying as well. Henry VIII had no compassion. No real ability to love anyone. He was a monster.

[@joykoski7111]

Thanks! Whenever hearing Katherine's story I always get the urge to hug and Mother her. Poor tragic girl.

[@jmwilliamsart]

I know right, that poor girl deserved to be loved and to find happiness.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate it. 😊 And I feel the same way about poor Katherine. It's sad that she didn't have anyone to guide her. Even if she had simply not got wrapped up in an affair with Culpeper, I think she would have had a pretty nice life - and I say that as someone who detests Henry VIII.

[@pioneercynthia1]

Jane Boleyn was quite a viper. She willingly testified to the nonsensical idea that George Boleyn had an incestuous relationship with his sister, Queen Anne Boleyn. If I wasn't so opposed to the death penalty, I'd almost think she got exactly what she deserved. Also, your illustrations really add to the story. They're beautifully done. Every one of your videos has them, and even though we know many of these people have no existing portraiture, your illustrations bring the story to life in a way that the videos of other historian's lack.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I hate to speak ill of people, but I do agree with you about Jane Boleyn. I'm sure there were reasons why Jane became who she was, but she really doesn't seem to have cared too much about hurting people, either. I'm not saying outside influences didn't contribute to that, but she wasn't the only noblewoman exposed to them. And thank you so much about my images, that means so much! ☺ I really try to use actual portraits where possible, but there's usually only one or two (or as you say, often none at all!), and until I have a budget to rival the BBC's and can hire actors for my documentaries, I figure it's a good way of trying to imagine these people in life. 😂

[@otma2011]

In her new biography, it has been shown that Jane Boleyn was probably not nearly as evil as she had been made out to be. In fact, there is even no evidence that she actually testified against her husband and sister in law. Apparently most of lawn the things she was accused of for centuries were rumours and slander.

[@mwilliams369]

Great video on Katherine Howard. Such a tragic fate for a young lady who was used and abused by people around her throughout her life. Thanks for your continuous dedication providing high quality content, your visuals and storytelling are always delightful 😊❤

[@jmwilliamsart]

She deserved better, I wish that I could go back in time and give her affection, and romantic love.

[@ruththompson9369]

I was abuse since birth and finally got married at 13 we been together for 53 years and now I am his caregiver paying him back for taking care of me and our children.. we been lucky so many get married and divorce when things are tuff.. but I knew tuff life before marriage so I learn how to weather out the storms that came in our life… find a good man keep him, times back than was different most women never live above 20 in that time..

[@PhDrSeuss]

53 yrs....that's beautiful. With more to come❤❤❤❤

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I'm so sorry that happened to you when you were young, but I'm glad you found happiness with your husband. ❤

[@otma2011]

Married at 13? Wow

[@simon112]

a truly sad tragic story of Catherine's life, she was a young girl in many was innocent and nieve, she certainly didn't deserve to be executed. Superb as always thank you.

[@jmwilliamsart]

I feel so awful for poor Katherine 😢. I wish that I could go back in time, fall in love with her, get her to marry me (instead of Henry) and we could live our lives together.

[@tartaninka]

​@@jmwilliamsartShe needed money ...Do you sport any dosh?

[@carolinebennett5615]

I live in Horsham and walk past Chesworth House regularly. It’s beautiful. A private residence so you can’t visit it and it’s shielded from view but you can see what it’s like online as it was sold some years ago. I think it was on the market for £6 million. The grounds are lovely and reach down to the river Arun flowing close by. Even though she suffered neglect in childhood, she must have enjoyed that house and grounds. It really is lovely. And maybe she visited St Mary’s, the 800 year old church with a tall (slightly crooked) spire visible from the grounds near the house. She could have walked along the river bank towards the Church and town as I often do now.

[@janvan113]

Very well done and informational video. We seem to hear the least about Katherine, when it appears that her story is so very tragic. As a teenager she would have had difficulty making the best choices at times, as most teenagers do. The 16th century was hard enough for females, let alone a very young female who found herself married to King Henry VIII, and what that would entail. My sympathies to the poor girl.

[@sabrinastratton1991]

I think by then Henry couldnt even consummate the marriage

[@zackhalter9571]

Great video! Just a teenager that was lost! It’s a sad story😢

[@COBO2]

Not one but 2 wives that he executed and both those wives are cousins. Now those two wives are buried next to each other.

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

How do you know that?

[@amatulfulani6390]

@@user-fg9xz4bz3b It’s documented…

[@shesaknitter]

Poor, doomed Katherine. Thank you for this very thorough coverage of what happened to her over the course of her short life that led to her tragic end. I found it especially interesting that Elizabeth had been close to her and that Katherine's execution was a factor in Elizabeth's decision never to marry.

[@peggywoods4327]

So glad the algorithms tossed this my way! I love these sort of deep dives. Liked & subscribed! Greetings and respect from Colorado, US 😊

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, great to have you here! ☺

[@lfgifu296]

Henry’s most tragic wife imo, and by far :( While I think her relationship with Culpepper, whatever nature it had, was a stupid thing to get into, I also believe her situation then was complex, and, in any case, it wasn’t that which led to her downfall (or began it). Also, pro tip to Dereham: don’t blackmail someone when you’re part of the thing you’re blackmailing people with💀 Have a nice week :))

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Hi friend. Let’s take A moment to think about Catherine Howard. 😔

[@leeannproctor47]

Wonder if her marriage was her own choice or not.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're absolutely right, and I agree - her situation was already difficult before Culpeper was part of things. Katherine was a very broken little soul, I think, and that informed all decisions she made after that point. And agreed with Francis Dereham! Not the sharpest tool in the shed. 😂

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@leeannproctor47 there's a lot of debate about that, especially as her uncle Thomas Howard was eager to get the Howard family back on top, and Katherine herself was at least somewhat ambitious. It makes you wonder if she was sold on the idea on the basis that Henry was already old, and therefore may not live much longer? It would have been treason to say it, but perhaps Thomas Howard saw a future with Katherine as queen dowager with a son, and they might take over 'looking after' young Prince Edward...

[@lfgifu296]

@@DarthDread-oh2ne yes :(

[@KDSima]

KH8 was impulsive and erratic during the last decade of his life. This possibly can be attributed to the traumatic brain injury in January 1536. Brain injuries are a real problem.

[@Germania72]

I feel just compassion for this young girl. Her situation was hopeless.

[@monicacall7532]

I love your snide aside about Henry thinking that he was still Heaven’s gift to women-if he ever actually had been! My heart goes out to poor Katheryn. All of the “adults” in her life couldn’t be bothered with her until it was too late, and then she got the lion’s share of the blame (Granny Howard basically got a slap on the wrist). Katheryn paid with her life for the gross negligence of others. How truly shameful!

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

I personally think Katherine was innocent of adultery and Culpepper was a pervert while henry viii was a hypocrite and a murderous pig.

[@jmwilliamsart]

@@user-fg9xz4bz3bI wholeheartedly agree, and I’m thinking of writing a fanfic in which a guy from our time travels back to this time and he and Katherine fall in love. He brings her back to the future with him so that they can be together happily.

[@leeannproctor47]

I hope you write it someday.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I would definitely read that! ❤️

[@Henry-xq2wi]

Poor Katherine.abused and used by People around her.

[@heathersmith8549]

It’s not like she had any say in the relationship with Henry VIII. None of his wives did. I doubt aside from Katherine of Aragon, none loved him and probably didn’t want to marry him.

[@MFLimited]

That’s not completely true. But, he was a disgusting man

[@lizvanophem3327]

I always felt sorry for her, she was just a child

[@goeegoanna]

Fascinating, thank you. It's all nature when there is no nurture.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

That's a fair point!

[@christinedowie2859]

I guess blue blood is very bad blood. I've yet to hear anything good. Except crazy George. He was physically afflicted. His wife his rock❤

[@charlottebruce979]

A victim of a very strong patriarchal society. She had absolutely no agency, no father (around to protect her). Therefore, men felt they could use her as they did. I'd like to think, even if for a short while, with an abundance of beautiful clothes, dancing and being the 'top' lady she had a bit of fun at court before she died!

[@kimm.8800]

And when she finnally used agency by choosing a man she actually wanted for a lover after having been pressured in to an arranged marriage - she was executed for that agency. Truly sad how people still, in this day, feel a need to "excuse" her, as if she had done something wrong. In her case, she did nothing wrong by cheating - there is nothing wrong with cheating in an arranged marriage.

[@stacey4u2luv]

I wonder if affairs happend because they knew that he killed any wife that did not give him a son. Hoping that if in secret she conceived a child that they just had to get away with them finding out there was an affair.

[@CORLEONESPORTS97]

what did king expect??? he was ugly she was beautiful of course she wanted someone else

[@PhDrSeuss]

😂😅😂😅😂

[@IVR68]

And what about loyalty to your king? 😅

[@ronilevin6376]

The poor girls had CPTSD...

[@A.Girl.Has.No.Name.]

I always find your videos fascinating, and this one didn't disappoint. Many thanks for the hard work and research that must go into each one.

[@leeannproctor47]

Missed your videos last week.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you so much! It's worth it every week when you guys enjoy them. 😊

[@beckyshell4649]

I don’t know how people could still be chummy with the king when he had beheaded their cousin,sister or child .All of the royals and aristocrats were related by blood,marriage or close association that led to some very messy relationships.

[@chrisperrins8082]

Henry VIII is roasting in hell for his many crimes.

[@user-zr3wg5rf7x]

Ha...All this time I thought it was the neighborhood bar-b-que!

[@alisonridout]

Enjoyed this. Thank you

[@Show_Love_Serina]

Thank you remembering the forgotten🖤

[@MissAyame89]

All those poor woman

[@sarahk6254]

Katherine was stunningly beautiful if thats really her in her portrait! 😱

[@girlsrule722]

Henry the viii was a tyrant....

[@harryzero1566]

Most commentators conveniently forget that Henry's family's rise to the monarchy, was a bloody path, that involved some heavy blunt instruments. Preserving Henry's dynasty was paramount.

[@MT-cx8wb]

Excellent, thank you!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! ☺

[@mizfrenchtwist]

hello , great share , thank you for sharing🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰............

[@katdimauro9369]

Love ❤❤❤ that this video is narrarated by a person!!!! So many times, I'm put off by an AI voice mispronouncing words and the lack of humanism. Subscribing!!!

[@user-zf2zr3to9f]

Always feel so sorry for all these poor women

[@thefinecolumbian]

How Katherine was treated is a product of the times. Women were, in actuality, property and used however the owner saw fit, i.e., her father, brother, etc. Being someone's lover at such a young age was normal for the times. The life span was about 30-35 years in the 1500s. A young teen was probably the prime of life for most people.

[@Denise-ki9ii]

I like to think that Jane Boleyn helped Katherine to commit adultery as revenge for the trumped up charges against her husband George Boleyn.

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

I've often wonder if jane boleyn deserves the villian status.

[@leeannproctor47]

Jane Boleyn should have seen the danger.

[@Denise-ki9ii]

@@leeannproctor47 exactly! That is why I think Jane helping Katherine was motivated by revenge at the injustice done to her husband and sister in law. It makes more sense to me than assuming she took such a risk out of a love of meddling. Katherine cheating on Henry was serving up to him the reality to mirror the fake charges. The king’s health was also poor during his marriage to Katherine around the time she started meeting secretly with Culpeper - perhaps Jane thought he wouldn’t last long enough to find out.

[@Denise-ki9ii]

@@user-fg9xz4bz3b yes, I wondered that too. The evidence against Jane is pretty flimsy…her writing a letter of comfort to George when he was in the tower doesn’t sound like a bitter, neglected wife. I think when Annes ladies, including Jane were interrogated, anything they said, however innocent, was twisted to look bad. Had George believed Jane responsible for the charge against him, why didn’t he say so in his trial and comment on any animosity? He said he was being condemned on the word of one woman, he didn’t say of his wife, when asked to comment on the accusation.

[@user-gv7kc9tr3m]

Poor Katherine, so young and a Tyrant of a King !!!!

[@philip2010]

I think she was abused in more ways than one so was Anne Unfortunately this kind of thing was common in these royal family's they put they these young girls through alot

[@charlierae8266]

Carherine Howard and King Henry VIII are distant cousins of mine, as well as Anne Bolyn. Its fascinating to heqr stories this old related to my ancestral family tree.

[@MichelleBruce-lo4oc]

Hi, awesome live history video. I enjoyed it. How are you doing and your cat Mallard? I'm doing well, and so is my cat Benjamin. We have a solar eclipse tomorrow in Ontario, Canada. I can't wait to see it tomorrow. Have a great day. See you next video. In the next video, in the future, could you do videos on Catherine Carey and Henry Carey. They were children of Mary Boleyn in the Tudor times from the 16th century 😊

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Hi Michelle, we're all doing fine this end, it's great to hear you and Benjamin are doing well! 😊 The solar eclipse sounds exciting! And thanks for the suggestion, I'll add them to my list.

[@creenataylor8070]

It's a shame that's she's glossed over. What a sad life.

[@greenghoul157]

Out of all the six wives I feel like Katherine least deserved the life of a queen, she wasn't like the other Tudor women who were clever or strong or influencial she was literally just a poor girl

[@trishmcl9055]

I would have thought he was finished with women by the time his leg was falling off

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You'd think, wouldn't you?! 😂

[@juliestrickland7754]

His ego was so big that it had to be constantly fed. And he was STILL, even at that late date, hoping that he would be able to produce another son. His mother, and especially his grandmother, raised him to think he was the 💩, and since his brother was supposed to be king, he was also raised with very little discipline. He was nothing but a narcissistic, spoiled man child with a crown.

[@MFLimited]

You’re clearly not a man. A man would still pursue women with both legs falling off.

[@sartainja]

Man, see where the writers of soap operas got their ideas for their shows.

[@Andy_Babb]

I love this channel

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Aww, thank you so much! I'm glad you're enjoying it. ☺

[@Andy_Babb]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Very, Very much so! And congratulations again on your M.A.!

[@kathrynhoward9738]

God bless you Kathryn x

[@jackiedouglas4483]

Poor Henry, one would despise his fate, and his character. But we really can't judge the tragedy centuries later. We have enough unjust tragedy nowadays to consider and suffer through.

[@charleendavis8171]

Poor girl. There's a reason laws today forbid these types of marriage between young girls and abusive old msen. Thank the Lord.

[@MFLimited]

No, they don’t. Not everywhere.

[@charleendavis8171]

@@MFLimited Well hopefully most places. I was mostly speaking of the US. I'm not saying all over the world because I don't know enough to say that. There will always be places that hold out, that care nothing for young gjrls.

[@pfranks75]

Katherine Howard made a bad choice, she could have been a faithful wife and waited patiently for Henry’s demise.

[@MFLimited]

She wasn’t very smart. She definitely wasn’t cunning. But she did not deserve what happened to her.

[@pfranks75]

@@MFLimited Under Tutor law she was guilty. When you study historical events it is useful to look at the norms of the time.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're right, but I think firstly her age has to be taken into consideration (hormones flying around and making us do stupid things still happens now!), and secondly the fact there was no one really acting as a parental figure to keep her in check. But you're right, I always think if she had just been patient, she could have had a really happy life with Henry (despite the fact I despise him) and could have had a second life after his death.

[@IVR68]

She couldn't choose.

[@historyloveriii2949]

Was anyone advising her?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Probably not in the way they should have been. It's likely Thomas Howard would have tried to 'advise' Katherine in terms of how to get on Henry's side, but I truly feel she was somewhat disposable to her family.

[@PaulC-ss5uo]

I really feel for Anne and Katherine, they deserved so much better.

[@user-gi8pk9uc7q]

Henry was a fucking hypocrite!

[@joshuaowensjr8694]

She was 18

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

We don't actually know her exact age, she could have been anywhere between 16 - 21 when she died.

[@PhDrSeuss]

​@HistorysForgottenPeople 😢so young. I thought she was executed in her 20s-30s. Thanks for the story.

[@user-ty2xv6xw8j]

The Tudors portrayed her very young.

[@katherinecollins4685]

Interesting video

[@katim2644]

Love letter? Could she even read or write given her lack of education? sounds like a pretty fortuitous find, found at the right time.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It was full of a lot of spelling errors and grammatical errors, in her own recognisable hand, so sadly it was hers.

[@MFLimited]

Yes, she was not completely illiterate. Katherine wrote it. She was not well educated, for her station, she was not very smart, and she was not clever. Poor thing never really stood a chance, married to a perverted, grandiose narcissist.

[@MissMarquise]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Ah, just like the teenagers of today

[@PhDrSeuss]

😂😅 aint that the truth 😂😅​@@MissMarquise

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Ok, she wasn't that abused as people think. I can't help but notice how much people saw her over time as either a prostitute or an abuse victim. Sure, her mother was dead and her dad had a lot of debt issues, but Lambeth was a sort of "finishing school" (a school where upper class girls learn upper class stuff, like manners and stuff) and it was common for nobles to send their kids away to other nobles to learn courtly stuff after a certain age. 1. If she had a music teacher, why do some people in the comments act like she was barely literate? During the Early Modern period, it became fashionable to educate girls too (Henry educated his daughters, Mary and Elizabeth, Thomas More did it, Jane Grey and her sisters were educated by their parents, etc). If you wanted to make any impression at court (and this was the whole point of the school), you definitely needed to know to read and write + foreign languages + dancing + singing + other stuff. 2. Katherine most likely had more agency and wasn't a mere passive abuse victim. Why? She was a Howard. That name alone carried weight as the Howards were and still are to this day, an important noble family. If some random teacher did things to her without her consent, he'd risk angering some very powerful people. Her chastity was very important for the marriage market and some nobody affecting the interests of the Howard family could even get him killed. And there is evidence she broke up the relationships she was in, so she definitely had a say in what happened. BUT it is very possible that Dereham did pressure her psychologically. It's not ok, however it's not the same as "she was r**ed". 3. Further evidence of her education is something that few people ever mention: her performance as queen. In the short time she was queen, Katherine Howard played the role perfectly. Ambassador Marillac of France and others praised her demeanour as queen. Every public gesture, every word had to be carefully chosen and she passed the test with flying colours. Katherine was a dutiful and competent queen doing exactly what was expected of her. Sure, she wasn't into Latin translations, but she wasn't uneducated, especially since the court had a very complex structure of ranks and gestures. You had to know what you were doing/saying to avoid offending anyone. Furthermore, the gifts she received included books. She definitely knew how to read and write.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

For your number 1 question, Katherine was barely literate - the examples we have of her writing are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors, and her handwriting (for the time) is much worse than other girls of her age. She absolutely was not well educated, and this is a widely known fact. Number 2: I agree with some of your points, and not others. Yes, I don't think it likely she was raped by Dereham either, for a variety of reasons - she never made that accusation until she realised her life was in danger. However, I wouldn't say she had 'agency' so much as no one was keeping a close eye on what she was doing. It's a little like saying teenagers now might have agency is they choose to smoke or vape just because they aren't supervised at some point. Agnes Howard herself admitted she had been a very lax guardian, (it was considered shocking at the time how little she had been involved), and when she caught Katherine with Francis, she warned her 'not to destroy her beauty'...she was far more concerned with Katherine appearing a particular way in society, in other words. Agnes further proved she wasn't too bothered about chastity when she later remarked it was unimportant that Katherine had sex before marriage. Number 3: Again, she really didn't have much of a chance to show off queenly skills. She was too young to be involved in any administrative matters, and the closest she came to this was being informed each night how the king was doing. Katherine was unable to make any decisions of her own, and even her ladies-in-waiting were chosen for her by Henry. However, she did prove she would likely have been a kind queen, with her attempting to make things easier for some prisoners in the Tower (which I make mention of). And receiving books as a gift is no different to today - you may not necessarily read them.

[@AC-ze1nh]

I found it fascinating that even by the standards of the day, Henry's behaviour horrified Europe. Eleanor of Aquataine led an actual uprising against her husband and she was imprisioned. Killing a consort was seen as a brutal act. Even Henry II, a king in a war mongering age, showed more restraint then Henry during what was supposed to be an enlightened age. Henry killed not one, but two of his wives! Usually, they would be imprisioned or put aside (disgraced and shut up in a nunnary, renouncing marriage and leaving the monarch free to marry once more) But Henry made sure to take revenge in the most brutal fasion. His orders to exicute Margaret Pole was also awful and she met a painful death because of the actions of her son. Henry was a tyrant. Im glad historians are starting to let go of Holbein image he wanted to project and call him out for his domestic tyrany.

[@Sophias_booktube]

what do they mean if someone is someones ward I hear alot of it on tv but I still can not fathlom it out.

[@A.Girl.Has.No.Name.]

A "ward" is someone (usually a child) that is being raised by a person other than their parents, either due to their status, a better financial situation, or because they don't have any relatives left to do so. That's why you often hear of orphans becoming "wards of the state."

[@samhain1894]

Like a legal guardian.

[@rosiebottom3870]

The ward usually came with a trust fund which her guardian could access. The guardian would often pay a sum of money to take on the ward so he could use his/her money - but he could only use the interest not the capital. So it was a kind of income. I doubt Katherine had a large trust so Agnes took on lots of wards to earn a living.

[@brigidsingleton1596]

The narrator of this particular videon on Katherine Howard, sounds like Caroline - I _can't recall_ her _surname_ 🤔🥺 - she used to be married to Paul Merton, and she had appeared as regular characters in 'Jonathan Creek' - with Alan Davies, and in 'Men Behaving Badly' with Martin Clunes and Neil Morrisey...

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Nope, just me, Miranda! 🤣 There's a bit about me on my about section if you're interested.

[@christigoth]

WHO is the guy posing as Thomas Culpeper, 12:00? is that in a movie?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Nope, it's AI - as mentioned in my description, I use Midjourney to help create historical figures when there's no portrait of them, or not many portraits of someone. ☺

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

😢😢

[@pamelamehl5668]

Agnes the Dowager also played her part in the neglect of Catherine.

[@garden2356]

It's a sad world.

[@beanoneya]

These age differences weren't remotely an issue then, or hell, not even until the 2000s.

[@fritzbasset8645]

Ahh, the Tudors, the dynasty where the least terrible was Elizabeth I. It's too bad that the Plantagenets did not win at Bosworth.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Well, I think both sides were as bad as each other, personally! 😂

[@fayekalantzis-oy6dp]

I wonder if shes related to the former Prime Minister of Australia, Howard, John Howard

[@kimm.8800]

I never understood those who feel a need to excuse Catherine Howard - because that actually means that they think she did something wrong by being unfaitful, and I do not. She had the right to feel desire and love for someone of her own choice, and there was nothing wrong to unfaithful in an arranged marriage. I feel sympathy with her Because she cheated. There is no need to excuse her; because in her case, she did nothing wrong by being guilty.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I would disagree... for multiple reasons. First of all, it's unclear whether she was or not unfaithful, but it is understandable why Henry and others saw it this way: at one point, in the interrogations, it's mentioned she met with Culpeper, at night, in secret, in a toilet. That's highly suspicious even by today's more liberal standards. Anyone would assume cheating happened. Then she changed her story a couple of times in the interrogations, so she was lying about some things. However, in her last confession, something that would have been her last chance to confess any sins or go to her death burdened by them, something people at the time took very seriously, she swore she didn't cheat. I'm inclined to believe her, that she never cheated on him, even though I get why others wouldn't. Then her marriage with Henry wasn't arranged. It was what would be called "a love match". An arranged marriage would have meant some negotiations between Henry and her parents... that never happened. Both her parents were dead by then. So there wasn't really anyone to negotiate with Henry for her and sign a pre-contract. She had brothers and other relatives, but I've never heard of any negotiations on her behalf. And love matches did happen. Not every marriage was arranged. And even in arranged marriages, there was the expectation for the 2 people to at least like one another... it wasn't normal to force people who couldn't stand one another to get married (although that did happen). But no, Katherine herself was ok with marrying Henry. As for cheating: it's never ok, arranged marriage or not. Especially for a queen. Why? Problem wasn't the cheating in itself, kings cheated all the time, but you knew their bastards were bastards, because they came out of the wrong woman. But if the queen got pregnant, people needed to absolutely know that child was legitimate. As they didn't have DNA testing back then, they couldn't know in case she cheated. This mattered because her private life was a matter of national security and policy. Having a clear line of succession was crucial, because without that civil war was a very real possibility. Thousands of people could die, just because the queen fell in love. Would you die for someone else's love? There were still people around who were born during the Wars of the Roses and people wanted to avoid a repeat of that. It's part of why Henry was so obsessed to have a son, he wanted to avoid a potential civil war.

[@MFLimited]

That’s your opinion. But you know you have an unusual set of morals. “ they think she did something wrong by being unfaithful, I do not“ Sounds like you’re trying to excuse yourself? I think you do “understand” that people don’t think cheating is acceptable. But nobody, reasonable, thinks someone should be executed for cheating either. Maybe forgiven or divorced.

[@washguy9577]

Ann i never felt bad for but Katherine i always did because of letters, and other sources say she was rather immature, not really educated, also a teenager queen plus like the video says she didn't have anyone in her corner just sad.

[@kittypicton72]

No. Not stupid. Not silly and naive either. An abused child. Let down by everyone.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I do make that very clear in the video. The words on the thumbnails are words that have been used to describe each queen through the centuries.

[@MFLimited]

It’s not a crime not to be smart. We don’t have to pretend she was very intelligent. Her clear lack of intelligence and education made her even more of a victim.

[@kittypicton72]

@@MFLimited ​​⁠and yet that's not what I said is it? No, I completely agree, it's not a crime to be less intelligent. The word stupid, however, is a horrible, derogatory word.

[@RaeJenice]

Are we calling her stupid because of bad choices in men?! Weeeelllll😒I have made some stupid choices in men myself and when I was older than her with a degree so I guess I am an idiot if that's how we're defining things

[@TheKoolbraider]

Who narrates this? Sounds like Lucy Worsely.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you for the compliment, but definitely not Lucy Worsley! 😂 I narrate my videos, there's a bit about me in my 'about' section if you're interested.

[@TheKoolbraider]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople You have a very clear and pleasant voice. I'm going through the series and enjoy each.

[@karenhill3970]

How horrible

[@leeannproctor47]

If i met her today would i think her a beauty?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Well, there's a lot of questions around that for all of his wives! Especially as standards of beauty change over the centuries.

[@laken1804]

By today's standard, she is not a beauty.

[@IVR68]

It seems to me that if you dress her in modern clothes and let her hair down, she will be very attractive

[@user-su8qw9dw6d]

I cant beleive he signed her death certificate shes was only16 or 17

[@IVR68]

😢

[@michellehairston8299]

I feel for Kathryn but she should of been smart enough to know Henry is wicked and hiw ge did his before wives