The Salvation's Edge Paradox

[@eforme]

Footnotes: 1: See Destiny's Duality of Light and Darkness kzbin.info/www/bejne/poKkpZeZiJt8epI 2: See Understanding the Final Shape and the Witness kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6DUapaGlsaIm68

[@cammycakesgaming]

excellent video. I respect and admire the work that goes into raid design, but that doesn't mean i enjoy Destiny's raids. positives: -I love the upward trend towards boss damage phases being less safe/stationary. -aesthetic, scale, atmosphere, etc. is stellar. -whatever technology makes verity encounter function is incredible -the campaign allows easy gearing for teammates -the crafting system and adept triple perks add determinism so I can realistically use the good gear in PvP. -Excision shows potential for 12player fun. Pantheon multi-boss idea has potential too. negatives: -For max 10 days out of the year, contest mode combat justifies decent gear and execution. Even then compared to other MMOs combat systems, I find contest mode combat lacking. It's a terrible feeling to have FOMO over a difficulty option that makes the game feel fun. -verity encounter scares players from even attempting the raid. There are plenty of great guides, calculators, and notes for it, but for whatever reason most choose to learn the encounter through osmosis which perpetuates others avoiding repeat clears. (my notes are in reply below). There's an alternative way to get loot that doesn't require learning verity. Just get a final boss checkpoint, pre break buttons, 10resilience sanguine whisper until dead. Use spoils to buy red box each week. -10 year saga ended when nothing substantial was announced after. Playerbase dipped for multiple reasons. It's harder to find a group of likeminded players. Not to mention the lack of a good new player onboarding system. things I accept wont likely change / hard pills to swallow about Destiny's end game: -puzzles are part of Destiny's raid identity. It doesn't matter if they're not my cup of tea. -"bringing the challenge back to Destiny" is unlikely ever on the agenda again. I suspect it's because there is a large portion of the audience that only wants to ad clear with a machine gun. -it will be a while before rougelike activities evolve enough for genuine replayability. -progression groups are not the norm for Destiny players (i'd love to do this) -for whatever reason the real replayable modes of PvP and Gambit are rarely given health updates.

[@cammycakesgaming]

Notes for Verity encounter: when teleported... 1. Read shapes from left to right | type it 2. identify my shape and location 3. check my shape against monitor if same, say "shape done"; if not, consolidate (match shapes). 4. When all 3 done... distribute my shape to other two statues. 5. combine whatever two shapes drop from knights 6. wait for main room team to finish to exit your room for master chall: if 2nd round, change the chat call counterclockwise. Make sure everyone leaves with what double shapes that match the new chat. when no teleport... use calcultor from blue engram website tips: you don't have to kill the fucking knights all the time. you just have to be in sync with partners. if you fuck up, grab two shapes and deposit it anywhere. you got time.

[@chillidari-9392]

@cammycakesgaming the point about puzzles being part of Destiny's raid identity has been a big part of my waning interest in the game, and why Forsaken era was peak raiding in my opinion. Last Wish had the most bosses which just felt epic and Riven legit is a fun encounter, Scourge had only one boss but it was a very fun and farmable raid and Gahlran in CoS is just goated, it being the first contest raid helped too. I still remember farming for power as soon as opulence went live because contest dropped 6 hours after 😂 With one exception (vow exhibition) I will always prefer boss fights, that's why for SE my favourite encounter by far is Herald because witness is kind of mid. The combat challenge in Herald was very good as well on contest. Imo salvations edge is a very mediocre raid carried by the best contest experience. Only having 2 bosses for the end of the light and dark saga really sucks thought. I feel like without the verity hype during day one this raid wouldn't be looked at nearly as fondly.

[@reddevil3277]

I think the reason why house salvation was cut was because at the end they all just became scorn. They never believed in the final shape, only revenge, and the only purpose the witness for them was to be scorn and nothing more

[@Fueled_ByTea]

I also seem to remember the witness seeming to be much harsher to races that received gifts from the traveler so not solely accounting for house salvation failing while under the witnesses banner it makes sense that it would turn the into near mindless zombie puppets

[@reddevil3277]

@ I also think it’s the reason that a fallen or the Herald of finality is the witness trying to mock us because humanity has been fighting them for generations and they’ve also been blessed by the travelers light before us

[@STUFFfromthegooddays]

We learn from operation seraph shield that the witness begun resurrecting salvation eliksni as scorn to punish Eramis for her previous failures.

[@denny8422]

as someone willingly doing teaching runs every evening for SE on LFG for the last few weeks, I get the part about verity being frustrating, and in the same way it also pushes me to get better at dealing with others and at Destiny. you nailed a lot of my own points honestly I'm super down to run it with anyone seeing this of any level of either skill or familiarity :)

[@ezraphillips7055]

Id love to learn this raid if you ever have the time! my ign is Demon_Fatalis#9618

[@ryeuhnbrus8287]

I've never got to run it due to player cout/willingness and not enough people online in my clan. UnderarmMunkei#3736 is my bungie tag.

[@natetudor6937]

@@denny8422 I would love to get my clear in finally. I'm trying to get the title too😅😭

[@simonmuscat7055]

@@denny8422 honestly I'd love to give it a shot one day. Never got a chance as my friends attempted day 1 but I didn't have any time to try it with them, and this was before the mass exodus of players over the past few months. I want to try get back into the game especially so that I can get the season pass done, and yeah I really do want to try Verity too!

[@BrianKoehler-w9b]

@@denny8422 what's ur bunge

[@BrazarB]

I love that this raid demands perfect execution because the Witness itself is about perfection. & As someone who completed the Seal with similar struggles u mentioned, I believe u can do it! Only thing I haven't done is a Flawless yet, hoping I can get around to it one day

[@evan5102]

@@BrazarB I've done flawless probably the most stressful flawless I've ever done but I believe in you and you'll get it eventually

[@bannedmann4469]

Too bad Bungo can’t make a raid with any competence anymore. Still can’t even do a proper D1 like hard mode.

[@boofhitter21]

@@bannedmann4469 i keep seeing this take passed around, ive never really played D1 since its a console only, what makes hard mode raids special?

[@kusovia1148]

@@boofhitter21bragging rights, they weren’t as holy as some old heads make out. Just nostalgia and fear of change. The new raids are far more interesting mechanically and the revive Tokens punish dying more than hard mode did.

[@therealeyezic]

I played the old D1 raids recently. Was not impressed. ​@@bannedmann4469

[@dudeydude77_clips]

Interestingly, every raid encounter in other raids are also timed, but SE just makes it very clear exactly how much time you have.

[@S0GGYS0CKK]

@@dudeydude77_clips I think it’s just to make you more nervous and aware of your appending doom. Also the witness is all about efficiency so it would make sense there would be quicker timers

[@Jaffamuncher21]

When i run this raid i make it a rule for myself to run with 3 friends as it basically ensures at least half the team knows mechanics so we can carry/teach players with less knowledgeable and it helps so much with verity

[@tuck3771]

@@Jaffamuncher21 yep. Always go in with some pardners

[@padawanjon6441]

4:11 There were originally 4 encounters with the verity encounter only being added after the final shape got delayed.

[@catsgame9282]

i hope fronteirs give us another 5 encounter raid like salvations edge

[@MrNuclearz]

The taken captain was probably a house of salvation captain, so technically they might be in the raid, lol.

[@SharkUsingaComputer]

regarding timing, i would much much much prefer a "late" review that is well thought out over a "timely" one. that being said, all of your videos have consistently been incredibly well polished and thoughtfully measured :] i'd watch anything you upload

[@tuck3771]

I’d agree as well. Plus there was so much SE content when the raid came out. It’s nice to see this video now that I myself have had more time to solidify my thoughts and emotions towards this raid

[@jamesvanaken585]

Thanks!

[@eforme]

Thank you!

[@tuck3771]

Your raid reviews have been incredible! Thank you for the amazing work!

[@Nwaaah]

I'm outright just never going to do the raid, I think. Watching it, it looks brilliant and as you said the lore is perfect, but I can't say it looks very fun on the gameplay sense. Besides that, exactly as you said, people want the comfortable teams for a raid like this. Kind of means the bunch who don't have a group who already play struggle to get into groups for this raid, which I honestly understand this time around.

[@EmmsDestiny]

I always vote to run SE in our clan runs but my raid report for it is a disaster - it is still by far my favourite raid.

[@overclocked3215]

Only did one run of Salvation’s Edge but still loved the vibes and loot. I think there’s some fat that needs trimmed (3rd encounter feels like a lot of unnecessary padding) but it’s just awesome

[@Jaffamuncher21]

4th feels that way because it was made during the delay but it's still top 5 encounters imo. I honestly feel like encounter 3 feels like unessecery padding as it's just a larger scaled 1st encounter

[@overclocked3215]

@ whoops, I meant the third one- verity is great despite the difficulties with newer/teaching teams. Third is just a slooooog

[@STUFFfromthegooddays]

Great video essay. I loved playing SE with my clan for weeks, doing the challenges on master and learning the encounters with one another. I only needed three triumphs for iconoclasm since I missed a few sessions. And none of them played after act 3 of echoes, and like you say it’s uncomfortable playing with random people since there are so many strategies. I wish I could hop back in because it’s a great raid.

[@thrilla72]

Which triumphs do you need?

[@r3al_b00gieboi]

Just like Vow, Salvation’s Edge makes sure that every player is involved in each encounter which makes it all the more rewarding to complete. This was by far my favorite raid seal to chase as each new run always made me understand and appreciate the raid as a whole. Raids like RoN never sat right with me as there aren’t enough jobs for everyone to have which makes your first completion feel bitter sweet if your team just stuck you on ad clear. A good raid should make every member of the fireteam feel needed

[@eranronen573]

"Zenith is the best boss fight with riven the only contender." Am I the only one who thinks this is a hot take?, aksis phase 2, especially on 390 and with the challenge, is my absolute favorite, and I never see people mention it

[@thrilla72]

@@eranronen573 I am constantly cheering for Aksis phase 2 on challenge. We've not had a more enjoyable boss encounter

[@eranronen573]

@thrilla72 never got that darn shader tho

[@thrilla72]

@@eranronen573 That sucks

[@theeternalslayer9513]

The one raid i am yet to do despite it being half a year old. I only loaded in day one to see what first encounter looked like solo (to see what the map layout was) and since then? Never set foot in it. Never gotten a weapon/piece of armor of it. Everytime i attempted to do it, no one was willing to teach one person (me) and this is the one raid I'm not going to do

[@frost8418]

I've played on day1 man it was such a blast! all those years and all those guys i managed to colect the friends i made along the way just to be ready for this moment! it took us more than 1 day to complet

[@DanYami]

I'm missing only 3 things for Iconoclast, and I've been struggling to get a full fireteam the past 6 months - Full Solar - Full Arc - Verity complication

[@prstechnic]

The raid will never be the same after contest. That was its peak for me. Brutally hard, no turning back, you either stop the final shape or the universe ends.

[@theeternalbruh1267]

I love the music in the salvations edge raid, my favorites are unmade, and herald of finallity, specifically high action herald of finality, the fit the bosses perfectly, cant realy explain it, but it gives me a feeling of confidence for some reason

[@Slick.Aeonian]

That enemy stuck in the floor at 9:43 was funny lol

[@lambdadelta5743]

I would love to help with salvations edge runs, the raid is so fun when helping others imo

[@captncuddlybear9404]

12:09 "...instead having an incredibly difficult damage phase, the most difficult in Destiny." The Corrupted Puppeteer would like a word.

[@Fusi453]

I would love to run it, but every team that “teaches” me ends up kicking me or not making it passed the first encounter. I gave up on doing new raids since everyone I run into is super toxic or they can’t work together

[@eatheranoxgaming]

wonderful video still need to run this one

[@GhostRydr1172]

The one raid I'll never run. 😢

[@jyapp4489]

There is something to be said for a hard raid being a great one. Yes, the storytelling through difficulty along with the actually really well done encounters is an amazing first time experience... but that's just is - its the first time experience. The only encounter I actually look forward to on repeat runs is ironically enough the Witness itself, and its actually rather simple why; despite having not as challenging mechanics, not everyone needs to do them, its surprisingly teachable with a few runs, and the fight itself is engaging enough to make those mechanics challenging enough to do given its on top of fighting for your life. You likely won't immediately 1 phase, its rewarding AND challenging enough, and the fight itself is just epic alongside having very significant story significance. Everything else is too challenging or complex for an LFG group (which a lot of us engage with) to do. The 1st and 3rd encounters are ok for reasons stated in the video, but the 2nd and 4th encounters have serious problems that make the very difficult if you don't play them with a regular, solid team (which not all of us have the luxury of doing, which is part of why we turn to LFG). The 2nd encounter has a problem where if someone slips up somewhere, you will likely fail due to lack of time remaining (either in the phase you're in or the next due to not having enough time). 4th encounter... well, that one was explained. I also enjoy 4th encounter, but I cannot for the life of me learn how to dissect, nor do I have people willing to run a few times to teach me, which very few people seem to be willing to do for a variety of reasons. I can usually tell how the rest of the raid will go based solely off of how fast we clear the 1st encounter, because if the team has proper chemistry, gear, and competency, they will overcome the rest of the encounters (maybe barring 4th). If any one of those are missing among even just 1 person, then I just don't want to bother. Salvation's Edge's difficulty is ultimately a double-edged sword. When you want the challenge, and you have 5 other people who are also willing and capable of taking it on, then its a blast! When you don't, you better have a lot of time and patience for BS.

[@coldblizzard5880]

Crazy. I have never been able to find a sherpa to help teach it to me. It’s 2025, the raid came out in JUNE 2024 and I still can’t find anyone willing to teach it. I guess there’s a reason why, but still. Sucks.

[@scottyskywalker5768]

I feel like it was degined to be the Hardest D2 raid day one but bc of that you have the most limiting raid bc any firetream is gonna require KWTD and multpile clears becuse of the insane learning curve .

[@lachydragneel]

Verity often has a reputation for being the most difficult part, but it's actually quite simple once you understand the rules. Here's a breakdown: Rules of Verity: 1. Solo Rules: You cannot end with the same shape you started with. Think of it as "activating" the shape by passing it the first time. 2. Both Rules: Statues will reject a 3D shape (holding two shapes) and will send it back to your room. To get shapes, kill knights; to get knights, kill ogres. The back wall shows the shapes you currently have. --- Solo Process (3 Steps): 1. Segregation: Keep your shape and pass the others their shapes via the statues. 2. Diversity: Hand your shape to the others. 3. Build Key: Now that you have the two opposite shapes of your own, pick both up (creating a 3D shape) and pass through the glass wall. Example (You are Triangle - T): Step 1: T → C Step 2: T → T Step 3: S → C --- Group Room Process: Order: Get the statue order from left to right (e.g., "TCS"), which the solo player will call out. This is the order of what shapes the statues are holding. To swap shapes, assign them correctly. For example: Left: TC → SC Right: SC → TC Your goal is to ensure no statue holds the same shape that was called out. For the example "TCS," you would adjust statues to: Left: SC Middle: TS Right: TC --- Fake Deaths: Theres two ways this occurs, While the players are in their solo room in which only they "die" and when all are reunited inwhich 5 players but one dies. The alive players must match the player ghost with the responding statue. While the dead players can see one statue of a dead player expect themselves. Dead players must inform alive players which ghost goes where, doing so revives the players when their statue gets their ghost.

[@lachydragneel]

Bonus, Want to do the solo room in one swap? What you do is: Left = C (currently has CT) Middle=S (currently has SC) Right = T (Currently has ST) Left gives Mid CT Mid gives right SC Right give Left ST Another example SCT L=SS M=tc R=tc Left gives M S and R S M gives R TC R Gives Tc to L. It's simple you know the call out and thus what others need so by passing to the right you should almost always be done in one go.

[@SlimeyZockt]

I never really had any interest in doing the raid since we beat encounter 1 on day 1. I like watching it though. I like to think that the Witness even slows down making the final shape because it is scared of us and diverts some recources towards stopping us, yet they actually drive us forward enough to beat it in the race

[@adrianpickel1482]

I love SE, probably my number 1 raid but I never want a raid this difficult again. Mentally preparing for a 2-3 hour experience with a dedicated team gets old real fast. Especially when stuff like VotD can easily be done in under an hour with an LFG team. Mainly comes down to Verity. I’ve done every other encounter of this raid with LFG but I wouldn’t dare attempt that with LFG. Still love this raid though I don’t have much reason to return.

[@Juan-GC]

Amazing video, I agree with the majority of everything said; but to me the witness fight fell a bit short. The damage phase is amazing, the trap is a great idea, but the central mechanics being done by essentially 2 people while the rest are just shooting ads feels cheap. As compared to the other encounters where the every player was at least a little to completely involved at all times. That feeling of cohesion and necessity for perfection in execution was a bit lost especially when I was on ad clear.

[@Th3Halfdrag0n]

I attempted DSC, Vow, and Root day one but I haven't touched Salvation's Edge at all yet. I regret not trying day 1 too but life was just way too busy. I also havent spoken to my raid team in such a long time. I do want to get this raid done at some point, as well as the latest dungeon. but life is so damn busy. I miss playing destiny but there is nothing remotely exciting to do that is solo and I can only play solo things because i dont have time to do the raids or dungeons anymore.

[@kellofkells6002]

I thought this was lore related but nice video the raid will definitely be one of the least completed ever right next to spire of stars

[@kusovia1148]

I agree, I find this raid so hard to do because it’s oppressive difficulty requires a good team and I always get like 2 or 3 useless players on LFG. Also I’m colourblind so I can’t do the mechanics in the final boss and have to add clear.

[@EliteBlackSash]

I feel like Bungie has different “styles” of raids and raid encounters that they do. The style of raid that I enjoy - Wrath of Machine, Kings Fall, that are built like thriller, Action Movies, are my favorite. Not overly challenging, but, FUN and full of spectacle. Siege Engine is still unmatched. The original Outbreak unlock brought the community together in such a unique way, only surpassed by Black Spindle and the Corridors of Time. Oryx matches The Witness in spectacle, esp the “slam.” In fact, The Witness shares a similar basic concept. Anyway, they don’t do this type of design often. Honorable mention to just the OG Crota boss fight, which created huge “hero moments” that really made you, “That Guy” for the week when you got a last minute save on sword. By far, their more common design choice, I call it puzzler… Symbols, Reading Totems, Verity, etc. I completed Last Wish but did not and do not enjoy it. Spire of Stars, I think the community overall didn’t really rate very high. Etc. So, while I look at this raid as one of the greatest pieces of storytelling and presentation in franchise history. I also…. Have no desire to interact with it. It looks and feels challenging, but, not in a way that to me I would describe as, “Fun.”

[@TheMrMayo]

SE has been a weird balance for me, where I'm not comfortable going with Randoms, but I still need to go for the exotic (and maybe complete some challenges. I'm not quite ready to jump back in, but at some point I'll open my hel to anyone who still needs their runs (and maybe I can sherpa once I finish learning the Dissection part of Verity, as that's the only part of the raid I still don't know how to do yet).

[@MelancholicBodhisattva]

I love Salvations Edge because the only way to beat it is to truly embody the Traveler's ideal - it demands that you work together as a team, communicating, respecting, trusting, cooperating. Anything less, and you will lose every time against the Witness and its Final Shape.

[@Weiss1456]

After many thinking of how the witness has been defeated, I can’t help but remember the time he litterally make finger moves to one shot 3 guardians in their ship, but in the raid he just makes lasers like Rhulk ? If the witness was lore accurate to its power in the raid, we wouldn’t stand a chance, the moment we would have been in front of him he would have straight up knifed us and the ghost.

[@PsychicBeetle]

The only way I can really make it work is that the Witness is too focused on enacting the final shape and isn’t paying much attention to us. Think like you are working on a car and a fly keeps buzzing around, you swat at it but you are focused on fixing the car. Even though you could get the fly, that would ruin your focus on the car.

[@boofhitter21]

yeah but that wouldn't have been interesting, personally, I justify it as us getting prismatic somehow made us immune to the Witness' flick, or that the Witness has tried, but the Traveler just pulls us back together.

[@kingkobra4910]

It does cut us in verity which is why the fake death step happens

[@fysy9989]

I stay away from raids because I find it hard to motivate myself to interact with 5 strangers. I am comfortable with dungeons as it's only two other people and the mechanics are less complicated. And SE seems like the ultimate nope I don't wanna burden other people by messing up raid. It comes down to not having friends who play the game, having no active clan and being introverted

[@sentinelslayer8328]

My main issue with SE is that it requires everyone to be good at it. If 1 guy slips up everyone’s cooked and brudda. I can’t deal with randoms anymore

[@therealeyezic]

That's literally the entire point of the raid. Instead of "dealing' with them, teach them. Everyone is able to be taught if you know how to teach. I personally love it because pulling a clear of feels genuinely rewarding. Unlike others, where you can nearly have the whole team mess up once and still clear it fine.

[@PrototypeGoose]

Perfect Paradox

[@mostlycoldandfullofrocks3317]

i love your channel :D here before you blow up in popularity

[@conmanay4563]

Yea, I judge raids on the encounters, lore and music. I almost never judge encounters on how hard they are to do LFG, unless it’s Vosik phase 2….I cannot stand stand that encounter without a perfect team

[@Soren64gaming]

While maybe not the most enjoyable raid for me to run, Salvation's Edge is an incredibly well designed raid. Honestly, the sheer creativity of Verity is off the charts. Iconoclast is a very rewarding title to have. Successfully completing a flawless run of the raid had me completely ecstatic. It's a shame that the raid momento never seemed to work at all. I can remember several times Bungie said they "fixed it", only for it not to be true. I never really cared for it, but the fact that it didn't work (and as far as I know still doesn't) for so long simply hurts out of principle. Would've liked it if you defeated the Witness in the raid, as that would've been more fitting. My guess as to why they didn't do that was to make it reasonably accessible to the wider audience. Instead of putting the Witness' defeat in a raid (where most players don't raid to begin with) putting it in a straight forward group activity just allows for more people than not to play it. So I get it. Excision was still a fun activity, and I'm glad they embraced the 12 man activity.

[@zereaux56]

I like every encounter of the Salvation's Edge Raid except Encounter 4. The use of Death as a mechanic(whether actual death or psuedo death because someone will try to argue) doesn't sit well with me. It feels like a cheap way to cause wipes due to confusion and draw out how long people are in the activity.

[@bob-st9mw]

video starts at 17:16

[@ShadowReaperX07]

I'll render another comment to synthesize its problems: Encounter 1 Points of failure - Wipe Mechanic = Timer Expiry Failure to find the activate plates fast enough. (You lose time). Mistiming the plate step; spawns a Miniboss level Ad that must be nuked before plate mechanic can be re-performed. (You lose time). An awkward Ad spawn of Strand Psions (or Stasis Psions) can either yank you away from the Plate at a critical moment, or prevent you from having enough mobility to stand. See above. You accidentally collect more than 3 resonance energy (This is just an additional point of failure). You die to the ads; if you lose 2 people such that you no longer have res tokens and/or not enough tokens to revive them, the encounter is almost impossible to do on time. Compare this to 'other' Encounter 1 Points of Failure - I'm going to gloss over the 'dying to ads' as this is present in all raids, so for contrast, Encounter 1 of SE, has 4 individual points of failure, not related to dying to ads too many times (which is every raid) DSC; you shoot the wrong fuse / shoot the fuse before it's called out DSC; you have the fireteam die to incorrect plate shooting in basement. VoW; you take too long to clear all 3 rooms and the sand fills the totem. VoW; you fail to clear the adherents and they fill the totem with sand. VoW; you have somewhere called out the wrong symbols and/or get the combinations wrong too many times. KF; you fail to have someone standing on the annihilator totem frequently enough to prevent the wipe. KF; you hold the buff too long and it expires. Crota; you hold the buff too long and it expires. Crota; you die to environmental hazards (Pits, Enemies, Pendulums, Exploding Lanterns) Crota; Time runs out. VoG; I actually can't remember the first encounter very well all of a sudden, but it can't have more than 2 points of failure; letting the wyverns sacrifice themselves. VoG; whatever the 2nd point of failure is LW; failure to push Kalli to damage phase. LW; failure to have the fireteam enter the doors more than once. Garden; time runs out Garden; failure to keep the nodes chain activated consistently. RoN; time runs out (You don't kill the Psions & Tormentors fast enough) Every other raid has between 1 and 3 points of failure for that same equivalent encounter. However, in almost every instance I mentioned, there is ample opportunity to 'correct' at least one of the potential problems. DSC; verify the person scanning is identifying the plates correctly; verify the person operating is identifying the plates correctly. [Alternatively, swap some roles] VoW; basically same principle as DSC, check they know their symbols, if in doubt have the fireteam converge on the 'correct' totem and have the more confident players shoot them. KF; the buff respawns on death, and can be grabbed from the starting location, you can also eager edge skate to deal with activations, with modern healing tending to offset damage in the room. Crota; you only really need 3 or 4 people juggling the buff if it really comes to it, you can also do things like skate to deposit spots if the team just needs a slower 'escort' to 'reset'. VoG; I'd be surprised if this went wrong, but most sacrifice locations can be seen by at least one other location and can fire on the target. LW; you can coordinate doors a bit better and ensure understanding of the plates. Garden; same sort of premise for the above timer related encounters RoN; with 5 ad clear it really shouldn't be an issue to 'nuke' tormentors. How do you salvage the first encounter of Salvations Edge? You maybe check people understand where the plates are going to be based on conditions. But beyond this, it literally comes down to personal performance as it involves: Not Dying Not getting frozen/yanked by suspend Not picking up too many resonance Not failing to close on time Not being too slow on killing ads Not being too slow on killing tormentors. This is literally the case for every single Encounter of Salvations Edge. Compared to other Raids, where you can have 'hero moments' (especially as a Sherpa), where you're capable of preventing the wipe from going off. In Salvations Edge, unlike almost any other raid, if something goes 'badly wrong', you can't really salvage it. If a dissector dies in the room in Verity, you suddenly have to shift mentality from outside to inside; AND, you don't necessarily know immediately how much work has been done, and need time to assess where you're at, further losing time. It's technically possible to dissect in such an instance, but it's just easier to get it right first time. If you think about Salvations Edge compared to any other raid, the amount of insurmountable points of failure, even in normal mode SE, are excessively high compared to ANY OTHER RAID. There is absolutely a reason why SE is the least played raid by miles. It is a fun pinnacle raid. But it is not a fun raid to repeatedly replay.

[@adamtheman5278]

I really like your take. ive done mutiple flawless raids and enjoyed every one. but salvation's edge is by far my least favorite raid. i haven't even finshed it. the encounters i did do felt like they lasted too long. i just get the feeling that the raid is long because of the backlash with how short and easy root of nighmares was. ive always belived its okay to have harder raids. but not every one needs to be ball busting hard. cause i would never want to take a new player into slavation's edge.

[@kingkobra4910]

Outside of the story nothing compels me to ever do this raid beyond the one run I did. WotM Kings fall and Vow are still my top 3.

[@pizza9798]

Salvation's Edge is a raid I sort of hate. Having to LFG it ruined any chance at it being fun for me. I like the first three encounters, but the last two just really don't do it for me. I think needing perfection just doesn't work if you're not with people you know and like. Because the inevitability is that there's someone in your group who is That Guy and now Verity will take 6 hours and there's nothing you can do about it. The only clear I have of it came down to luck on a run where the game never gave That Guy an inside room or made them the last person alive in the big ghost movey phase. Witness is a cool enough fight, but I feel like there's nothing for most players to be doing outside of the DPS phase. It's the same problem with a lot of encounters, where you get people doing the fun little puzzle, and then a couple who have to sit and twiddle their thumbs until boss says it's shooty time. I haven't kept up with the sandbox that much since I did my one clear on like week 2 or 3, but it was extremely unfun to just be told that I have nothing I can do ability wise as a titan to damage the boss, since it sits outside on a death box and years of design has cemented the class as punch man who punch good. Combined with the insane state Nighthawk Still Hunt was in at the time, and it seemed like my choice was to either not contribute to the team, or just never play one of the three classes in the game. Overall, I love the story and aesthetic and everything else about the raid, I just feel like the latter half gets way too into being long and difficult when done blind, sacrificing the fun of playing it after that in the process. Sorry if this comes across a little too negative or heated, I just haven't really spoken about my thoughts on the raid before.

[@bannedmann4469]

Yeah, it’s overrated and content creators like this are blinded by their Day 1’s and this being the end and all. Titan is useless for most of it, means it’s objectively not even close to the best. And don’t get me started on the gear…

[@pizza9798]

@@bannedmann4469 I feel like that's not really fair to assume. I think the first half of the raid is pretty good, the cool confusing Escher room of the first encounter, the sword DPS boss (at least it was last time I checked) and the third encounter are all awesome and I'd like to play them again. People can like things that you or I don't, doesn't seem particularly productive to call them blind for it.

[@lixoid4010]

I remember watching the live streams of worlds first and watching everyone get stuck on the shape/statue phase. Even when the first team was ahead of everyone. It took around 6 hrs for everyone to catch up. Watching that phase made me realize I’ll never be able to get the raid done

[@thedarkgenious7967]

you know I still haven't gotten to do this raid. I want to, I've done all the other raids and dungeons at least once, but this last year has just not been conducive to it. my clan buddies have quit the game, frustrated by Bungie's continued bungling and stupid decisions. the player population as a whole has dropped like a rock, reducing the number of people I could LFG with. the perfection required in this raid is actively hostile towards your usual LFG quality guardians. and this raid is fucking long, I got a new puppy in the last 2 years that has needed constant attention and care, so I can't just lock in for multiple hours like I could back in the days of D1's hard modes, where I could cordon off an afternoon of no interruption for running all 3 of my weekly hard modes for Kings Fall, Wrath of the Machine, and the various Age of Triumph raids

[@therealeyezic]

Personally, I think the difficulty and time on this raid is perfect.

[@masonschroeder8910]

It’s simple really. The harder you make something the less people are gonna run it. Difficultly comes at the cost of replay-ability.

[@VoidUnderTheSun]

Gotta agree with a lot of stuff here, EXCEPT for the claim that the Witness is one of the best boss encounters. I would have to say it's one of the worst. And that's not because of the damage on the plate, that's about the best part. The spectacle of the Arena, the fact the boss is just standing in one spot asking to be hit, as well as the fact basically two people can do the entire encounter while the others sorta just shoot a couple ads now and then, and are even punished if they decide to go insano mode further into the arena lest they cause an annoying hand spawn. It's a terrible dull encounter for at least 3 members of the deal outside of damage. Also, I really respect the belief that you should wait on giving an analysis until your opinions mature rather than simply hitting an algorithmic target, as well as your wrap up on self improvment.

[@Febo2310]

Witness encounter is just 3 nezarecs in a trench coat

[@10THPROPHET]

I honestly understand your frustration with trying to pull off a success with this raid. As much as people try to say "oh these encounters are easy", it tends to undersell that you really have to commit to this raid and pay attention. Recent tries (and depending on if you've played SE frequently) had me banging my head on a wall with fireteam members leaving without saying anything or just getting extremely mad over small mistakes.

[@JKneisley]

Hi, there's actually 9 tracks that play throughout this raid. "Dissenter" plays when you arrive at Verity. ☺️

[@eforme]

Ah thank you! Didn’t realize that. They really did a great job with the music. :)

[@halosmash8602]

I love the theme and story of the raid but the difficulty, length and lack of teammates pushed me and the wife away from trying this raid.

[@ShadowReaperX07]

So, funnily enough, this was the first Day1 raid I actively passed on the idea of doing, with an entire teams worth of guardians joining me on the sentiment. This was after doing and clearing every one since Deep Stone. Originally, I was up for the idea, even considering the idea of taking Annual Leave (Time Off) in order to 'prepare' for doing it. Then the timing shifted such that instead of the usual cadence (Week 1 Release week, Week 2 Friday Contest Raid Weekend), it shifted to having the Raid drop the same week the expansion released, and I decided that, *even within time off* I didn't want the focus to be Wholly on Destiny just for a good performance in the Day1 raid, meaning there were essentially 2 1/2 days of grind available to complete the campaign and gear up and grab some additional, new, tools. Consequently, decided that I didn't fancy the 'additional work' to go in for contest mode, and a few others within my original team, and the clan that have done previous Day1's, all, seperately, decided to sit it out. And boy, did that transpire to be a good decision. I've gotten older, already being an Adult since Destiny originally started, and valued my time a fair bit more. The team that did have a go, that I have also played quite consistently with previously, cleared 1st, 2nd and 3rd and got stuck at 4th Verity. Not a bad performance. But it reinforces that I was glad I decided to just skip the 'spoilers' and decide on a blind run of the normal difficulty raid after that weekend. Which *still* caused us to get stuck at Verity before deciding we didn't want to be there all night, let's go and just look this bit up. But this is the thing with this raid. Even on normal mode, it demands a fair amount of 'perfection' to have any sufficient progress. That sounds fine in principle, until you remember two critical pieces of information: 1. These are players of varying skill levels, that you might not have interacted with before. 2. Some of these players actually *WORK* for a living, meaning for all of those players that are 'fresh', you have to contend with me having just done 8 to 12 hours, and wanting to 'get something done' Number 2 isn't a 'dig' at anyone that isn't employed, as much as it may sound that it is, nor is it a dig to say a student that finds themselves with quite a bit of time. But in making a quite expansive raid (this is a good thing), in addition to making it a very 'near perfect execution' heavy raid (this is a bad thing the longer it goes on), the combination makes it incredibly tiresome - and unapproachable in a 'casual' 'raid night' environment. It's as if every encounter was in some part Exhibition from Vow of the Disciple, or Vault from Last Wish. Individually, the encounter(s) are a fairly good puzzle, involving clear communication, good timing and an understanding of the puzzle at large (albeit Vault was brute-forced on Day1). But between the tight timer for Encounter 1 (generally helpful if you know where the plates are going to spawn and what it's signifies is, the Overload). Some of the ad annoyances in Encounter 2 (Yay, Duskfields & Burning, my favourite combo - unless you're Prism Titan and you just slide melee annihilate everything on spawn) Encounter 3 is fairly 'free' but can occasionally trip people up if they accidentally shoot the wrong pillar. Encounter 4 is a clusterfuck at the absolute best of times, even with experienced teams, especially if you haven't 'practiced' in a while, or are tired, or have someone die and suddenly have to 'shift mindset' and go from 'making lock' to 'making key' and trying not fuck that up despite the fact you may have been handling fundamentally different shapes not 2 seconds before - all whilst making sure you aren't smashed by Ogres/Knights. And then it culminates in The Final boss, which isn't particularly awful, it's quite grandiose, but by this point in the raid your thinking power is probably going to be taking a hit (especially if, as I mentioned before, you're trying to do this 'after work/school' where you're already partially drained). Now, it doesn't bother Players like me, because I already went and acquired the Raid patterns, and most of my group had the patterns and the exotic drop. I'm still missing the exotic, and despite owning every Exotic Weapon and Catalyst up to this point (Excluding Salvations Edge), I don't see the point in going to get it, just to make my Swarmer Warlock 1% better. But for other players wanting to experience it... yeah it's 'a bit more involved' than most of the other raids. Now that's fine for a 'send off', and a bit of an 'homage' for the super hardcore playerbase. It was a hard raid, and a hard day1, with the lowest clear numbers ever(?). But it's also the least played raid, by miles. You can't help but think, in a situation where only a fraction of the playerbase raids at all, that this may ultimately have been a step too far. I'm glad the Destiny Content Creators got a great deal of content out of it. And I'm glad those that enjoyed the challenge, whether they completed it or not, felt successful. But it isn't a 'consumable raid'. If I have had a long day at work; I'm not playing this raid - I don't want to have to put conscious thought into my every move AND have limited ways of salvaging my, or others fuck ups. I can play literally any other raid after a long day at work, except this one. I'm not into something to be jerked around with tight executions and limited opportunities to correct mistakes, that are also reliant on 5 other people doing the same thing. If you don't have many other priorities, and/or can set aside the time, fair enough. But there is absolutely a reason this is the least played raid, and it isn't the fact the player numbers have plummeted off a cliff, this was a problem well before the decline.

[@boofhitter21]

I also never completed SE, though I like that it stands as that one challenge groups can work towards, I feel like every single game like Destiny NEEDS something like that, just to keep the community alive atleast. Though I get what you’re saying, this raid is incredibly intimidating and taxing, way too taxing for people who just want to sit down and relax with friends, though I wish there was more 6 player activities that weren’t raids, crucible or gambit

[@ShadowReaperX07]

@@boofhitter21 There's definitely a balance to be struck. You can't realistically argue about 'difficulty' with much nuance in other spaces, as if you 'don't like Salvations Edge' people immediately assume "You want everything to be like Root of Nightmares". My 'ideal raid' is the following. 1. 50% to 100% of the fireteam need to participate with mechanics, in some way, throughout the raid. Ideally, it's not 100% all the way through, but builds incrementally. Everyone should be expected to participate in a 'non-ad-clear' role somewhere during the raid. 2. The Wipe Mechanic, for a skilled team, should have a way of 'Preventing the Wipe' to an extent - or at least on 'normal mode' (I don't mind at all if they remove leniency for Contest / Master). (Think picking the buff back up in Kings Fall and/or skating to the Annhilator totem to 'reset' the tempo loss of a death) To give this more substance, I find it really bad form to have a point of failure be inherently reliant on someone else. This causes them to feel bad for 'failing' and it causes me to feel bad the longer such a situation goes on. They should be able to meaningfully participate, but i'm not adverse to the idea of a means to be able to bail someone out when shit hits the fan. 3. If it's a puzzle like Vault, or Verity, there should be some way of 'speeding up' your progression through understanding. Twice is more than enough to prove you understand how to solve the puzzle ON NORMAL MODE (especially given Vault was brute forced back in the day). The longer you drag a puzzle out for 'execution' you exponentially increase the point of failure due to cognitive load. This is especially egregious knowing what is to come in both raids (Riven Legit, The Witness). 4. If it's a 5 encounter raid; shorter platforming sections between encounters, i'm not adverse to them doing a 'Ir Yut/Crota' style encounter to have them exist in the same place. OR, some means of pulling the fireteam through the jumping section. Just something to get the players to focus more on the meat of the raids. I don't dislike 'transition areas' but some are excessively long. It fits with the theme of Salvations Edge, but does hamper it a fair bit more on repeat run throughs. 5. I think 2 to 3 bosses is fine. Though this said, I really enjoy Kings Fall, which is Totems and then 4 bosses. I honestly think VoW would be viewed identically to Salvations Edge if it had one more encounter prior to Exhibition. It is already considered one of the harder modern raids, but I think its pacing (bar the long entry) is fairly well executed in contrast to Salvations Edge, where you can somewhat tell that Verity is a 'cut above' the rest of the raid. I think 6 person activities in similar veins to Dual Destiny would be an interesting change of pace. You could have minor points of intersection, but you could essentially allocate 3 guardians 'dark' and 3 guardians 'light' and have them do 'mini-dungeon' style content to help each other progress. It doesn't need to be as mechanically complex as the dungeons (which are less complex than raids), but some basic grasp of 'working together'.

[@GyanPrakash]

This Raid is good but you need god tier expertise to beat it, it’s not like you can just be like “I’m add Clear” 😂

[@VixCopperhand]

I've raided for four years now, and I've gotta say; this raid is one I have never completed. The armor and weapon designs don't really click, but the memento looks fire. The exotic is interesting, but the overall experience frustrates me. The mechanics seem doable, but the Dread enemies just piss me off. Ultimately, I've never made it past the second encounter, and I don't know if I'd even want to pick the game back up again, much less do the raid if I did.

[@gmdark7620]

God… I’ve never beat it, and it’s eating at me… I’ve beat all other raids, yet I can’t bring myself to even attempt this one. Sigh… This might prove quite “fatal,” to my opinion of myself…

[@whaleborne1308]

Really like this raid, really dislike the general community attitude

[@TelestoTheBesto]

I don't really like this raid. Everything good in it is a double-edged sword, everything else is just okay or annoying. On one hand, I love how difficult it is. This raid is the only one I find genuinely challenging, and I like playing challenging content. But on the other hand, I don't have a friend group to raid with. LFG is a gamble on whether or not you'll get good people. Most of the people I end up with suck complete doggypoo, especially on Verity. And it becomes frustrating when other people keep dying because they're playing something that's beyond their skill level. Verity itself is a good encounter. But its complex mechanics leads to people of any skill level having difficulties playing it, because there's so many strats for doing it which don't meld with each other. Verity is where I usually leave because half the time people don't know the encounter, the other time everyone's strats are wildly different and people have to get taught different strats which just rends the flow of the match to a grinding halt. I have an issue with how little narrative impact it has. The two bosses are the Witness, and a complete random we've never heard of before. We don't even beat the Witness here. I know you weaken the Witness, but we already did that in the campaign I understand from narrative perspective that you want everyone to fight the Witness so you don't kill him in the raid, but it is unsatisfying to not have its defeat after this difficult challenge. And the Herald of Finality is just a complete random, and another reuse of the Eliksni Captain enemy. I know it's a Taken Captain, that doesn't stop it from just being another Captain. I wish the Herald of Finality had been some kind of Disciple, maybe the Disciple of Riis. And a unique AI more befitting of the gladiator type arena, like a giant Marauder or Husk. A Disciple holds far more narrative weight. Defeating this enemy is unsatisfying because it's a complete nobody. I have more issue with the Herald being a nobody than I do with the Witness. The armor is just weird. And the loot is okay at best, but I cannot for the life of me use the weapons because they look so odd. While I believe they were or still are meta (I haven't played for a fair bit), they aren't anything game-breaking and I don't consider them worth my time. Apart from Euphony, I do like its aesthetic. That one was worth my time, I like it. I also don't think the encounter mechanics besides Verity are that spectacular or interesting. The Witness' mechanics are soloable, which I don't like in a raid. Even in a normal run, you won't get most of the fireteam doing mechanics. I wish it was more mechanically complex, it just feels too simple. I have no issues with Verity other than maybe the statues and Ghosts could be easier to identify because this is meant to be run multiple times and having to do the whole sorting game gets tiresome, but it's not a huge issue imo. Third encounter is a nothingburger encounter, it's one of those marathon run encounters but with no unique mechanics of its own unlike RoN's second encounter & Vow's third encounter. It's not bad, it's just nothing spectacular and feels like filler. Second encounter would be cool if the boss itself was just more interesting as I discussed earlier. Mechanics aren't anything special imo. First encounter is fine. Not great, just fine. All the encounters are just okay in my opinion, only Verity is good. It's a fairly mid experience in my opinion. I don't think this raid holds much of a candle compared to others. A lot of it feels like filler, and the Witness fight is underwhelming. I know a lot of raids do have filler encounters, but this one just felt extra fillerish because the raid is too similar from Encounters 1-3. I thought I might appreciate this raid more further along, but I've just grown to feel more and more indifferent to it and it ranks really low on my raid tier list because of just how underwhelming and nothingburger it is. I do appreciate the effort they put into these raids, and I will admit, this is a beautiful raid with fantastic music and cool character design. But I like other raids more because I feel like they both have more narrative weight and don't feel like filler. I doubt this'll be a popular opinion, but I just can't bring myself to like this raid even though I want to like it.

[@ImAnubisDude]

So this is why i wasnt allowed to join lmao

[@davide29250]

long parkour sucks and drain fun of every activity

[@EYErisGames]

Are you pinching your nose while narrating this video? What's up with your voice?

[@bannedmann4469]

TL;DR Hard to teach, hard for scrubs to do. Lame reskin gear. Probably still glitchy.

[@kellofkells6002]

I’d love to have you

[@D2Brt]

brt

[@JQDeathFromAbove96]

I hate this raid because I won’t go get a boss cp for my “clear” I want the full package and NOBODY is willing to teach the 4th encounter. SE has to be the worst raid Bungie has ever made because EVERY SINGLE OTHER RAID players are willing to teach and won’t quit on you halfway through before even ATTEMPTING the 4th encounter. I hate this raid because it has some of the best legendary loot in the game and no one cares enough to teach it. I wonder why destiny as a franchise is dying.

[@boofhitter21]

I think the problem is that the community just seems to take the path of least resistance and gets a checkpoint from people with established groups or checkpoint bots to the Witness to get their pinnacle and be done with it quickly, having a new player would slow things down, and there's nothing a min-maxxer hates more than being weighed down because someone wants to experience the story. Sadly, this mentality is rife with games like Destiny, so there isn't really much you can do to stop this other than finding people like yourself who value the experience over the reward. I feel like Bungie IS partly to blame, but you cant blame them for making an experience hard and challenging when the occasion calls for it, I would be even more disappointed of Salvation's Edge was just another RoN, this raid definitely isn't LFG friendly, since it requires all of the players to do something, other than one or two of the group doing everything while the other four just wait for damage (except the Witness itself), I feel like SE needs a team for it to be enjoyable, not just a random ragtag team of guardians who barely know one another. (not really defending bungie, I just don't like seeing it when someone blames something else entirely) (not saying the thing above to be mean, i just REALLY dont like that)

[@JQDeathFromAbove96]

@ well the mid maxxers are killing the game. So enjoy a dead game because these anti consumer elitest practices only kill off franchises

[@boofhitter21]

@@JQDeathFromAbove96 there really isn’t much even Bungie can do about these types of people, since stopping people from playing their game just hurts them even more I stopped playing after TFS, but I still like to keep up, knowing the community is eating itself alive by chewing out all the new (and less experienced) people kinda saddens me

[@chillidari-9392]

Only in Destiny do people cry because others aren't willing to spend time to teach them. You don't see this pathetic behaviour in any MMO with raiding content.

[@boofhitter21]

@ pathetic cause people aren’t willing to help or pathetic cause people are complaining that there’s no guide?

[@donzo7452]

i tried to dislike the video

[@crabbypatty10fefrefe]

Extremely mechanic heavy content is bad for game health. Yet people like Datto champion it because they get to play video games for a living and get bored easily. KZbinrs and content creators influence developers to make games unfun and it’s annoying.

[@Oogway876]

Skill issue?

[@rubidium1948]

You could apply skill issue logic to a lot of things, but if the vast majority of people (outspoken or silent) align with the so-called skill issue, then I don’t think there’s much of a point deeming it such. Of the minority of the player base that consistently raids through LFG means, almost all of them have something to say regarding SE’s unusual difficulty to do with an LFG group. Not that it’s necessarily an issue, but rather a talking point in it of itself.