The Scene That Launched A Thousand Discourses

[@empatheticrambo4890]

I watched this show with my wife at the time, and as a man I’m just glad people took the SA seriously in its context...it did feel to me like the show didn’t take it seriously, but I can see the potential intent for it to be character work now that I’ve heard your point of view on it

[@phoebeel]

I find that most people in society laugh off sexual assault of men UNLESS it's a woman deceitfully using a man to get pregnant, usually in the context of either casual dating or a relationship about to fall apart. To me, it seems like it's partly due to mysogyny that this one exception for male SA exists... It is valid! But in that context, the man wasn't really "raped" according to society's standards but that the woman forced fatherhood on a bachelor, trapping him and his money, binding him forever to a fate he doesn't want. It plays into this weird stereotype that men rarely want children and women "convince" their partners or nag him until he agrees to a baby

[@juicebox7372]

​@@phoebeelThat's a very insensitive take

[@clumsyninja925]

​@@juicebox7372 nah its a pretty insightful one

[@clumsyninja925]

​@@phoebeel ohh interesting observation

[@phoebeel]

@@juicebox7372 as I am saying, it's not *me* who sees it this way. I think men can get raped and are raped through coercion within relationships all the time. I feel for those people, I do! I am observing that *society* doesn't believe in rape of men.

[@Ottolineification]

TBH the original books are so SO historically INaccurate - nothing is stopping anyone from imagining people of any colour as any of the characters.

[@Albinojackrussel]

For sure. It really threw me when half way through the series they tried to provide an in universe explanation. Just weird and shitty both as a plot point and from an external perspective of it undermining the reality of what racism is and how deep it runs

[@Ottolineification]

@@Albinojackrussel YES. I was so cozy thinking this took place in some Dreamland on another planet in another Dimension where people behaved guided by Romance Tropes... and then they had to attempt to explain it. UGH.

[@GeneralBolas]

@@Ottolineification While I agree, I can also see where the writers are coming from here. The legacy of racism in the real world is so strong that it feels like you *have* to explain it in order to establish why you're calling your show a "historical romance". Alternatively, there's a non-trivial percentage of the audience who will want to rail against your injected interracial fantasy in a period piece (this happens basically all the time), so you address it to at least mitigate that reaction. Either choice is going to infuriate some people. Though having a *better* explanation would have really helped.

[@alicehammond7622]

@@Albinojackrussel In the Queen Charlotte spin off they go more in depth about how they somehow went from a segregated society to completely ending racism within like 50 years. They basically just give titles to wealthy black people and the worst thing that happens is a few of the white people say something kind of mean and then everyone else embraces it. I feel like it really trivializes racism and I wish they’d just let the cast have POC in it without addressing it at all. Similar to how Hamilton does it.

[@Albinojackrussel]

@@alicehammond7622 totally agree

[@vamps_rock]

My problem with it is that *she thought about it for a whole day which means that her action was pre-meditated.* Also, she didn't need to understand the concept of 'consent' on a sexual basis - she knew she was forcing him to do something he didn't want to do, whatever the reason why. I will add the fact that there was no _real_ discussion between them about what he did (lie/misrepresent the situation whilst knowing she had no understanding of it) and what she did (assault him) but a strong emphasis that we should side with her was just so out of order. To my recollection, he apologised for what he did, but she never did.

[@WynneL]

"Your father made you think you needed to be perfect to be loved, but he was wrong. If you need any proof, then look just here." She's almost crying here; pointing out they fell for one another despite their imperfections. "You can choose to love me as much as I love you. That should not be up to anyone else. That cannot be up to anyone else. It can only be up to you." There she is acknowledging and respecting the need for his consent. She shows further respect by departing so he can consider whether he wants to try again. The apology is not overt, but it's the clearest olive branch possible and delivered with all sincerity. She's showing true remorse and better behavior--more important than saying the words.

[@undetestable1]

Its worth mentioning that "the scene" was further complicated by the addition of POCs. During the time period where the story is meant to take place, black men were litterally being breed like animals. I read the books so I knew the scene was comming (i did hope they would take a different approach). But actually watching a black man, who is supposed to be in a positon of power, being assulted by his white wife really took me out of the fantasy the show was trying to create. It ruined the season for me. No pun intended. They really only had to make a small change for "the scene" to be palatable. Use Daphne's ignorance and make what happened be the result of her trying to explore her sexuality and not understanding what she did wrong. Simon can still get mad and you can keep the scene where she asks for the birds and bees talk; just place it after "the scene". She gets to be angry also, they come to understand eachother better...happy ending.

[@krystalhuntress6795]

yeah it's so fucking weird where a show acknowledges racism was a thing but a white woman rapes a black man to have a baby when historically black people have not been in control of their reproduction under slavery like it's so fucking weird.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

This is a really good point, they should have done this.

[@PoopHobbit]

So true omg!!!

[@salmahernandez3142]

That would have been much better writting

[@elizabethjackson544]

It would have been so much better had she not known exactly what she was doing, and that the sex itself was in an act of anger. Like I feel like they could just take away the whole Knowingly and angrily aspect of it all and it would have been fine. Like if they both got caught up in it and he got there too fast and he freaks out and she gets angry once she understands because she thought he couldn’t when he really could. It would also make their reconciliation more realistic because it wouldn’t literally be literal sexual assault in that case, where he just like forgets to pull out or doesn’t pull out quickly enough.

[@editaudioaesthetic]

My biggest issue with that scene is social media marketed it to me as a low-stakes, fun-loving show that didn't require media literacy and was just something to pass the time. It was supposed to be wholesome in that sense, at least I was under that impression. When I got to that scene it was like I was retraumatised because there was no warning of any kind on socials or with Netflix that there was rape. The same issue came with casting POC, we had all been under the impression that it was color-blind casting until the fourth episode where they try to act like it was completely intentional which.. is a choice. Now it's not some lovey-dovey romance like we had been giving it the grace of, now we are forced to take off these rose-colored glasses before we are even ready to as an audience.

[@Albinojackrussel]

My big issue is that the scene is in a historical fantasy romance series, with no warning whatsoever.

[@purpleghost106]

I agree, but also, IME the fact it's a historical fantasy romance unfortunately seems to be The TW itself-- it's depressingly common to find SA in the genre. Most of it unacknowledged as such (and notably where the protagonist is totally cool with it, because she loves him, so clearly if she's initially not interested he's just helping her out by making her realize this is what she wants... or something. It's troublesome)

[@corneliahanimann2173]

It would be a problematic scene without it being historical too. I honestly feel like there is so little historically accurate in the show, I would not be surprised if one of the love interests would suddenly turn into a vampire or werewolf, and they just ran with it. I think for whatd it very obviously is, which is fiction, it's not as bad as it could be.

[@maxschreck9988]

SA happens in real life, with no warning whatsoever. What is the objection?

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@maxschreck9988 that some people have experienced sexual assault and are traumatised by it, so when they watch a sexual assault scene, their experience is a lot more intimate and a very horrible reminder of their own assault, which could actually trigger them to be retraumatised by that scene because they relate to the victim too much as if the assault is happening to them all over again. This is why a trigger warning would be necessary, for a show like this, because to me and you, who are not sensitive to it, the scene does not cause us further harm, and knowing what is ahead of us doesn't take much from the experience from us, but for them it is very crucial that they have the option to skip these things because it will shorten the time they need to cope and heal from their own experience when they can have a healthy distance from that type of content. It is not going to kill them if they see it, it's just a small thing where we could try to aim for moddle ground where both sides can try to be cautious of eachothers feeling without causing eachother discomfort.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@maxschreck9988 also, I would like to point out that so far, victims of assault have no alternative way to know if a movie or show contains a scene that is potentially retraumatising, so they have to do extra research about sexual assault scenes in moviey and shows they plan on watching. I think you can see how that is counterproductive for an assault survivor, so when you felt like the person in the original comment was somehow attacking people that are not bothered by these scenes, you could consider the frustration a person might feel trying to deal with their own demons and how the movie doesn't give them a break. I just don't like this "Us vs. Them" interpretation, because we don't need to be at eachothers throat to be more considerate of one another. If you are struggling with a past of that nature, I would want to do my best to give you the space in which you can come to peace with that.

[@maggiedk]

Wait... I've never actually watched Bridgerton but I've seen a lot of videos and a lot of the *discourse* around it, and this whole time I've been under the impression that their child was born because of "that scene." I think that might be an example of the over-simplistic discourse about it because I had no idea that the conception was actually consentual, and that does seem like an important factor in the story. Like Laura, I'm not saying that makes it okay... But there is a giant difference between a show framing SA as okay in the end because a baby came from it, vs having the SA cause problems in the relationship, then having them get back together, and THEN having a baby consentually.

[@becuaseimbored3481]

Tbh SA should end a relationship. If my partner sexually assaulted me there would be no coming back from that. Hell, if cheating is enough to end the average relationship then something thus bad would be a death sentence. (Not condoning cheating but it's nowhere near as bad as SA)

[@maggiedk]

@@becuaseimbored3481 trust me, as a survivor, I totally agree. I was just saying that the 2 scenarios are vastly different and that the story was more nuanced than I realized, not that I think anyone should stay with a person who SAed them.

[@krisjustbegun9740]

Or better yet, have her get off when he asks her to do so. He gets to ejaculate outside of her. Then his reaction and panic can indicate to Daphne what she wanted to confirm and the scene can progress as is

[@gouwhyisyouhere]

but the sa is never framed as wrong. simon is framed as in the wrong when he was the one assaulted. there’s no justification for this scene and how the show handles it

[@maggiedk]

@@gouwhyisyouhere again, I've never seen the show and my only knowledge of it is videos I've seen about it, so I don't personally know exactly how it was framed. I'm sure you're right, and I agree with the conclusion Laura comes to in the end of this video that this storyline was obviously handled wrong. In general, I think there's NEVER a justification for SA. All I was trying to comment on is the huge difference between my prior understanding of the storyline (that the show tried to justify SA because it resulted in a pregnancy) and what actually happened in the show (more nuanced than my original understanding, but still very messed up).

[@JoshuaKoerner]

"Am I a problematic?" is a question I ask myself constantly. I can't say that you're in good company, but at least there's more than one of us!

[@samanthaw.861]

35:07 That’s a really good interpretation and I’ve never thought of it like that. Her actions after that scene (her curled up with her knees lifted on the bed, her dismay at her period) certainly imply that she was aiming to get pregnant in that moment, but it was less of a case of “I want a baby now and will get it no matter what it takes” and more “IF I get pregnant from this then I’ll know for certain that I’ve been lied to.” Also, now I really need to rewatch INSIDE.

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

I just can't really get with that though. Even from the perspective of them being characters and not real people it feels like you're violating their trust in order to see if they're violating your trust and that's just toxic. It makes the happy outcome of "oh look they had a kid" seem so hollow when she's going "I'm gonna rape him to see if he's infertile or not"

[@Rennar3210]

does the motivation behind sexual assault/rape really matter though?

[@jayhlovelady]

One of my favorite things about your videos is that you'll usually state your position early on but then through the scope and depth of your analysis there's such an opportunity to examine the topic from different perspectives, not to mention side topics. It's the epitome of a fulfilling journey. Also, thanks to your use of the phrase "Thermian Arguement" I found another Folding Ideas video to watch. Bonus!

[@bogunicorn]

My partner and I rewatched Bridgerton earlier this year and ended up going from our original "why keep that scene at all, this kind of ruins the rest of the season for me" to an interpretation closer to yours in this video. It's very validating to see someone else thinks the same way! Also, Hoots and Matthew do such a good job in the book part of the video; I would absolutely consider buying an audiobook if Hoots was the one reading it.

[@THATGuy5654]

I think it's good to be able to talk about something like this without dogmatic dismissal, but I'm also glad people can recognize it for what it is. One time I was in a grocery store when All I Want To Do Is Make Love To You started playing in the background, and for the first time in my life I listened close enough to the lyrics to realize that the singer's character had essentially tricked someone into impregnating her and then proceeded to raise the resulting child with another man, without the consent or knowledge of possibly both men. I guess male violation can be classified under "easy listening."

[@katharineeavan9705]

I mean, in that context he did have unprotected sex with a stranger and presumably knew that could be the result. It wasn't great of her to do it and it was cheating on her spouse, but it wasn't a violation of the man she slept with as he was aware that he was consenting to an act that could result in pregnancy and he chose to take that risk. Her wanting pregancy to be the result barely factors, as even if she hadn't intended to get pregnant the result would have been the same. If the song had her poking holes in condoms or getting him drunk first or telling him she'd had a hysterectomy or something then fair enough, but in the song she saw a dude and asked him to have a one night stand with her, which he then did enthusiastically and without reservation about potential consequences

[@THATGuy5654]

@@katharineeavan9705 @Katharine Eavan I won't pretend it's on the same level as even what was depicted in this video, but I do still think it was wrong, and the song seemingly agrees. " Please, please understand" isn't the way you start a sentence when you don't think you've done anything wrong.

[@missanthropy6174]

@@THATGuy5654 I think that the lyrics of the song leave a lot unclear. What is certain is that the narrator, a woman, meets a stranger, engages in a passionate and consensual one night stand with him, then years later, she and the child resulting from that one night stand encounter him and she begs him not to reveal he’s the father in order to preserve the family she now has. It’s not clear if the couple had protected or unprotected sex that night. It’s not stated if the narrator was trying to get pregnant the night she had her fling. It’s also not stated if she was cheating on a partner that night or if she was single. What we know is that they had one consensual night together, they part ways with no plans to interact in the future, and then they meet again by chance years later, at which point the woman is in a committed relationship, her child has a father, and she doesn’t want this stranger from the past disrupting the life she has made with her child and her partner. So yeah, maybe she was cheating, maybe she was trying to get pregnant, maybe she was being super sketchy, but that is absolutely the least charitable read the story the lyrics tell and makes all of the most pessimistic assumptions. It also ignores a lot of the poetic implications and themes in the lyrics. No, I don’t think that “All I Want To Do Is Make Love To You” is at all comparable to the situation with Daphne and Simon.

[@THATGuy5654]

@Miss Anthropy I don't think there was any implication that he would try to tell the husband, or that he even knew the husband existed. They literally hadn't seen each other for a few years, at least. Meanwhile, this is the note she left him after the one night stand: "I told him I am the flower you are the seed, We walked in the garden we planted a tree" And this is the complete line I didn't quote in the last comment: "I said please, please understand, I'm in love with another man, And what he couldn't give me was the one little thing that you can" I'm sorry, but that's not an uncharitable reading; it's just a reading, and all discussion I saw of it online read it the same way. And while there are other potential reasons to bring a one night stand to a motel instead of your own home, I think the clear implication was that she was married at the time. And remember, the song came out in 1990, when The Pill was pretty common. If a guy was propositioned by a lady, and she didn't insist on a condom, he probably assumed she was on it, though that was still irresponsible. And the argument about him enthusiastically consenting to the act itself, well... if you have sex with someone, but you fail to check the room for hidden cameras, is the fact that they recorded it still wrong if they never show anyone the tape?" Their "consent" when you have ulterior motives isn't really consent, whether they ever discover those motives or not.

[@Boggythefroggy]

So the music video of this song shows more context of the situation the lyrics paint - the woman is married to a man who I believe is disabled and is unable to get her pregnant. She goes out to look for someone to sleep with in hopes of getting pregnant. It’s a morally icky situation for sure but not clear sexual assault because she’s really just having a one night stand with a random person. I grew up listening to Heart and still love the band and the Wilson sisters so I know this song well.

[@emmanema12]

This filled the Lindsey Ellis sized hole in my heart. Thank you

[@Heidi2003]

Same for me! Lindsey Ellis is back fully on Nebula but I don't have it!

[@blue_eyedfloozy]

@@Heidi2003 I promise you a nebula subscription is worth it for the new Lindsay videos alone! I prepaid for a year I believe and she’s made 3 videos since her KZbin departure

[@frontporchcake7592]

The entire time I was watching the show I thought Simon’s aversion to having children was because he knew the way his father treated his mother and her dying in childbirth, that he didn’t want to put any woman through that or treat her like his father did. When it was revealed it was just a fuck you to his father about ‘ending his line with him’ I was like: seriously? That’s it?

[@Kirasfox]

Well, that's disappointing to hear

[@peenyweeny3834]

my god i love when im talking to people like you about deeply serious topics and i get cinema sins'ed about how a trauma response "doesnt make sense"

[@frontporchcake7592]

@@peenyweeny3834 I didn’t say it doesn’t make sense though, because it does, I was just personally hoping for something else from the plot.

[@Romance_dream_]

no, he was literally just trying to take revenge.

[@llcdrdndgrbd]

Desiring revenge can be a result of trauma. Very obviously.

[@annaemaire]

Thank you so much for taking the time to go through this difficult scene and extremely tough topic in a generous and nuanced way, Laura. I'm so glad that I fought the survival urge to turn it off, unsubscribe or leave a comment without having watched all the way through. I was so troubled by the scene in Bridgerton not because of the scene itself, but as you mentioned, the fact that Simon's potential trauma and broken trust after Daphne's actions was minimized and unexplored next to her pain at discovering his lie. It felt like a betrayal to keep watching the show, particularly to the courageous and wonderful men in my life who have been through SA (often by a partner) and supported me through my own recovery. I agree that there is a place for stories about sexual violence as a result of ignorance (eg Spring Awakening is one of my favourites) and it's important to show that normal, "good" people are capable of abuse. The person responsible for my own SA was a close and kind friend, and to this day I've had to make peace with the fact that he was partly ignorant to the extent of his own harm - as was I due to a fundie christian upbringing (it took a while to make sense of what had happened and why I wanted to die at the time, but thankfully I'm in a much stronger and better place now). It doesn't change what he did or the harm it has done to me, but in reality monsters rarely look like monsters - and I try to see the monster as what he did rather than who he was. I'm still not sure if I can go back to the show, but I really appreciated your thoughtful exploration here.

[@hmmm2564]

Girl, monsters are monsters

[@Religion0]

Fun fact, the victorians were very clear on sex education and they believed female orgasms were vital to conception. They had pamphlets.

[@ashlingteirney7543]

The victorians were but the regency era took a very different stance, being far more uptight and prudish in the way people often assume the victorian era was

[@looc_96]

That's not really accurate, their sex ed. classes were pretty underground, and only rich white women were allowed in universities so most people would not have had access to these classes anyway. The Victorian period was a mess, hysteria was rampant, they literally thought the uterus moved around the body

[@tymanung6382]

But Bridgerton was set in earlier. Regency period.

[@Boggythefroggy]

@@ashlingteirney7543 they may have worded it wrong, because videos I’ve seen from KZbinrs who are historians have said it was a prudish society, much like the victorians, but since having children within a marriage was very important in the society, mothers would give the basics of sex ed to ensure that their daughters would know HOW to have babies. Abby Cox is just one of a few people I’ve seen speak about how anachronistic this plot point is.

[@HuntingViolets]

@@ashlingteirney7543 I was under the impression the Regency was a bit less prudish?

[@VenusAD]

FANTASTIC work! A couple extra points: The novel is an earlyish aughts bodice ripper and there isnt anything that happens in it that isnt fairly standard for that genre. They're romantic and sexual fantasies and sometimes those fantasies include some messed up ish. The problem is that when it becomes a netflix series, its going to be viewed by a much wider audience, and those elements should just be dropped, because you're no longer catering to a small niche who picked up a regency romance knowing exactly what they were getting - i.e. "forced seduction", as they called it back in the day. The book is far more accurate to the time period, where...marital rape wasn't even a concept. Doesnt make it right, but making the characters understand that they both didnt receieve full informed ongoing consent would be absolutely bizarre. BUT when it comes to the series, it's so wildly inaccurate and random that they could have done that, but I agree that the THAT scene was wholly unnecessary when they had more to work with for the characters to overcome. Finally, I agree that the racial implications are the most painful part, but the characters cant even address that because racism has been erased in this universe because plot. Ive seen the other commentaries you recommended and agree others need to watch them! Theyre super good and cover the issues with this and other aspects. Anyway, great job! I'm off to watch more of your work!

[@lyndabethcave3835]

I really appreciate this perspective, that you can say "Yes it's assault and that's absolutely not ok, AND here's what That Scene is doing in the narrative." One thing that I found constantly overlooked in the Discourse when Bridgerton first came out is how Purity Culture affects everything. I spent my teen years in fundamentalist Christian purity culture, and I immediately recognised strong parallels between the Bridgerton Regency AU culture and purity culture. Women are not taught anything about sex. Guys can get away with whatever but women are supposed to be chaste and pure (which means innocent and naive). In that world, the concept of consent does. not. exist. But it gets complicated because this is a TV series that exists squarely in our world, where consent DOES exist. So then, what responsibility do the characters have to align with our values? What responsibility do the writers have to ensure the characters and plot lines align with our values? Should protagonists do shitty things? These are the questions that seem, to me, to be under a lot of The Discourse.

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

I was about to get butthurt about you saying "but" until I came to the exact same conclusion you did lol. I was about to go "oh there's no fucking way you can defend this" before going "wait, they're characters and people doing horrible shit makes for a compelling story" Breaking Bad is my favourite TV show of all time, and Walt letting Jane die is a horrible thing but it also led to the dynamic between Walt and Jesse becoming so much more interesting. In the arts, without conflict there's nothing

[@meivisco4033]

I really appreciate your analysis of how these two characters arcs collide in this scene, i had not seen it so clearly before.

[@disneybunny45]

Omg the book narrations are so beautiful!! I'd definitely listen to a whole audiobook recorded by them.

[@redsands1001]

Hoots has some good video essays. took me a while to realize it was them

[@padfoot2116]

I feel like they could have just had him be the one who doesn’t pull out. Like he comes home drunk like in the book and initiates s3x and just doesn’t manage in time cuz he’s drunk. He then can be mad at her for not turning down his drunk ass and maybe even explain why that’s bad, but he’s mostly mad at himself. Like he already is in the book.

[@katharineeavan9705]

It would definitely give more legitimacy to the "she didn't know what she was doing" thing, as drunk people being unable to consent would be a concept that never had reason to even cross her mind as a refined lady with a sheltered upbringing

[@missanthropy6174]

I really like this version of the scene playing out. Especially since Daphne’s arc of deconstructing her sheltered upbringing and learning to accept imperfection would also be fulfilled by this narrative choice. If Simon came home drunk, initiated relations with Daphne, and then accidentally finished before withdrawal, it would still bring fourth all of the conflict. Simon would freak out because because of the potential of unplanned pregnancy and in response, Daphne’s ignorance about sex and consent would be fully revealed to her. She would learn that he was taking advantage of her ignorance and also have to reevaluate the perfect idyllic marriage she had always expected and thought she had. And Simon would have to acknowledge his trauma and work through it before he and Daphne can reconcile. In my Bridgerton head cannon, this is how the scene goes down.

[@emilyrln]

Dang, I like that so much better than what the show did!

[@upinurbiz]

Ohh this is so good - I’ve not read the novels and only half enjoyed the show so I never really thought too deeply about this scene beyond a minor “yikes that’s bad” and I sort of thought that was the end of it - I also definitely thought she was trying to get pregnant so to hear the point you made about it being her egregiously misguided/violent attempt at communication was sooo interesting and makes for a far more thought provoking and critical experience without negating or trivializing the fact that it is clearly sexual assault. I LEARNED NEW THINGS HERE I LOVE IT

[@mikaylaeager7942]

If you’re interested in some supplemental listening I’d recommend the 99% Invisible podcast episode “The Clinch.” It dives into the history of Romance novels in a refreshingly positive way, but it also goes into why SA is such a common device especially in older books. I’m so glad the genre has, for the most part, moved away from that history.

[@Tesseract_King]

Oooh, I love 99%I and romance novels but I haven't listened to that episode. Thanks!

[@EliahNebb]

30:13-30:46 This is only about 2-3 sentences, but it eloquently and precisely breaks down what's going on in their minds. I know nothing about Bridgerton, so I appreciate the detail in this writing. 35:37-36:13 Same thing

[@wackjobnetwork9381]

i really thought it was weird that daphne tried to blame simon after he was mad at her. he told her that he couldn't give her children and didn't want to marry her because of how much she wanted them. she agreed to that, so in my opinion she doesn't have the right to be upset about committing sa.

[@lolsous]

But he mislead her. There is a huge difference between "I can't have children" and "I won't have children because I want revenge on my dead father". Daphne trusted Simon and he betrayed her trust, Simon trusted Daphne and she betrayed his trust. They are not of equal knowledge or power. Daphne does something terrible, but I don't think she is a terrible person. And I would think that if she was a man too.

[@llcdrdndgrbd]

@@lolsousthink about what you are saying. The roughly equivalent scenario would be the man thought his wife was infertile but he finds her birth control and then suspects she is not infertile though she could be taking the pills for acne or period control. He sabotages her birth control and she finds out. When they argue he says she has no right to be angry he violated her bodily autonomy and right to reproductive freedom, because she said she can’t have kids and he thought that meant she was infertile.

[@SnowCat-nu7gj]

Honestly to me the white woman Instagram is simultaneously sympathetic to the women it's portraying while also a pretty viscous take down of whiteness more so than against women. We can maybe talk about a white man maybe not being the person to make this critique but the actual points to me that stand out are the flattening of racial issues to be on the same level of cute pictures because the fundamentally do not have to live with the reality of racism. Some of the photos are either about activism or actively culturally appropriative, the line "some random quote from lord of the rings incorrectly attributed to Martin Luther king" are some of my best evidence for this. It's not persay something that can be attributable to white men because so many white men aren't even close to supporting these causes. It's a criticism of how a lot of white women care about racial issues when they see it before immediately forgetting about it once the conversation is over and going back to acting in ignorant ways because they don't bother to internalised what they see because Instagram flattens movements to be just a thing you share to get likes I will admit it took a few watches to get to this interpretation and it's also absolutely not the only thing the song is doing but I do think there was reason there. It could maybe have been made clearer but I do think we should be allowed to discuss how whiteness and femininity often interact.

[@davidmcguire8041]

Just taking a moment to say that I hadn't really thought about the framing of White Woman's Instagram in this way. Inside was my favorite thing that came out in 2021. It's maybe my favorite thing that's come out SINCE 2021. It (and specifically the beautiful, raw, and simultaneously upbeat and devastatingly nihilistic "That Funny Feeling") made me cry for months after it came out, and still does sometimes. As such, and also because from everything else I've ever known about Bo (admittedly very little), I don't think he was coming at it from a Lense of misogyny, even if that's a valid and fair interpretation. Everyone has their blind spots. I'm not saying this to defend it, but more to say that all good art can be interpreted many different ways and that we all live in a Society™ where people with good intentions still manage to hurt one another... especially elder millenials. Great video as always. I am, as always, baffled that your channel isn't bigger.

[@teddobomb9037]

I'm also not entirely sure how funny the entire thing was meant to be taken, y'know? Inside is such a bleak sad performance I struggle to laugh AT any of it. But the perception and interpretation is one I have to respect as I understand completely where it comes from.

[@kyndramb7050]

In other performances in Indide he even points out "White men have had the stage for at least 400 years. So maybe I should just shut the fuck up"

[@hridyanadappattel4400]

Same!!! My problem with the scene is that there was no talk about how wrong it was, it was just brushed off as if nothing happened by focusing the tragedy on Daphne having her period and crying. The plot should have addressed it if they were going to include it, since a lot of impressionable teens would be watching this and having their first exposure to sex. This is a great video and I can't imagine the amount of work you must've put into this. SUBSCRIBED!

[@CatHasOpinions734]

Excellent video! Much as I can no longer enjoy that scene, the discourse around it has been very bereft of nuance. I think you're right that, in a vacuum, decades from now, the scene would probably hold up pretty well. But part of the problem is that other SA scenes ARE happy to be explicit and unsubtle about how reprehensible it is to violate someone's consent, regardless of why or what society at the time might've thought about it. Because of how good the show had been about consent up to that point, I didn't really mind that scene as much the first time I saw it. It was horrible, but I got the impression that it was supposed to be, and I was convinced that Daphne would eventually understand the gravity of what she'd done and acknowledge that and apologize. But by the end of the show, we got a bit of that but I just found it so insufficient that I couldn't really like her as a character anymore. I've wondered if maybe the writers treated it as less severe than (in my opinion) it was because they were afraid that it would villainise Daphne, but to me it wound up accomplishing the opposite. It didn't help that I felt like the writers were more on her side than his. Like, that "can't and won't are different things" scene always makes my blood boil, not because I don't buy that character thinking that but because it's clear the writers agree, despite the fact that it's perfectly common and normal to say "I can't" in situations where the only reason you can't is because of a promise made to yourself or someone else.

[@Alex-ph5ir]

Yes, the "can't and won't are different" drove me up the wall. As someone who is childfree by choice (but not the kind of childfree who hates kids; I actually love them but just 100% do not want to be a parent and 1000% never want to birth a child) ---- that scene was super upsetting to me. My "won't" isn't meaningfully different from a "can't" to me, because I would very literally be su*cidal if I were pregnant and forced to carry to term, and to be a parent against my will. Like, sure, he should have been more upfront with his spouse and all. But the idea that "it's really important to him that he does not parent children" is totally invalid, while "he physically can't parent children" is valid and acceptable.... it's just such a gross lack of respect for a person's autonomy

[@LukaWukaWatcher]

That's really what bothered me the most when watching this show. It was like it was missing an entire episode at the end of each season where those kinds of scenes (Daphne apologizing or how tf a Duke married a non-titled spinster) should have been included. Instead they did some wrap up montage time skip like everything is fine now and it felt so unearned both times. It just made no sense and left me super dissatisfied and like you said, villainized Daphne because that scene was missing.

[@PoopHobbit]

When i first saw The Scene i was pretty grossed out HOWEVER i then read the book and decided the change was the best possible outcome for the plot line.

[@violeta7298]

amazing video! I agree with your points, it's a complex situation but narratively it's... almost natural? the problem, i think, as many other people have mention, the show itself doesn't take what happens seriously. one thing they could have taken from the book in that regard is the conversations about What Happened, a more sincere talk where they both apologize in a more explicit ways

[@waadalsaidi5440]

This is the most nuanced argument I’ve seen regarding this topic, you use so much logic while remaining empathetic

[@AMoniqueOcampo]

I loved Simon and Daphne and I hated that scene. I seriously wanted to give that whole subplot a rewrite. But thanks for joining the discourse.

[@Albinojackrussel]

I always read Daphnes actions in the scene as being about control, and spite. A sort of, well if he can do what he wants without talking to me, then so can I kinda moment

[@alisaurus4224]

My take exactly. She wouldn’t have thought of it as “I’m sexually assaulting my husband” but she knew she was making him do something he didn’t want to do, when he was incapacitated. And i absolutely did conclude she was doing it to try and get pregnant. (ETA: it absolutely is SA, but a woman of that time wouldn’t’ve considered it so, and may even have felt justified in claiming her marital right to children)

[@whatcanidooo]

Yeah but the point is it doesn’t matter if someone “thinks” they are sa someone, it matters that they did.

[@Starburst514]

That's the definition of SA...SA is about control and spite so that makes it even worse...

[@tharo4390]

he'd been lying to take advantage of her that entire time and nobody talks about it! it makes me so mad, I swear!

[@Albinojackrussel]

@@Starburst514 very true

[@starrykev]

this was such a compelling video laura!! my friend had told me about The Scene which made me instantly stop watching, but I like that you explained what actually happened within the context of the show since I stopped before ever seeing those bits also i think what some other commenters are saying about specifically a black man being victim of SA by a white woman feels more than iffy, and i think should be addressed

[@LycoLoco]

Laura, you always educate me on something I don't expect to deep dive into when I wake up. Can't wait to finish this one!

[@lotusthemermaid]

Hoots did incredibly as the voice of Daphne.

[@Ancusohm]

I still have trouble wrapping my mind around this clusterfrick of a scene.

[@dmargaret2729]

A great example for the points about anachronisms (18:39) is in the show Westworld. The producers (and some in-universe characters!) aknowledge the storytelling value of playing on existing conceptions.

[@amerlinh]

Ok, so I had a completely different take on the book vs show. Reading the book after watching the show I felt like Daphne actually acknowledged that she messed up *and HOW she messed up better than in the show because she says 'if you don't want a kid, that's fine' (and I think she says that multiple times?) and I didn't read things as her 'knowing his feelings better than he does', though I guess I can see that interpretation? Anyways I really really liked how nuanced and well stated your take on everything was!

[@fuzzycatbutts]

Book quote mentioned in the video: "What could have made him lie to himself for so many years?" Re: Daphne's thought on Simon's relationship to his parents and how that ties in to his nonexistent desire for children. Idk, seems pretty clear that she does think she knows his feelings better than he does.

[@chelseaj6063]

I never read the book but I love the show and I came to the same conclusion with the story line with Marina. In tears Marina is standing in the hallway and says "I thought him a villain! George had a perfectly good reason. And I was wrong." That's the closest quote to my recollection. And Daphne just stands there in quiet realizing that she might have been the one to fuck it all up. And she stops being mad at Simon and tries to reconcile with him. Only problem is that she never says she's sorry

[@katherinelynch4193]

Sheesh, I’m really glad that the show did away with Daphne’s apparent telepathic powers.

[@kikiplum5477]

Well, it must be at least a tiny bit working since I am now a patron.

[@JeremyOsborne1981]

Welcome to the fold! I'd like to say we have a picnic, but we don't

[@gracecunningham8770]

Amazing as always Laura! And big props to the voice actors for the book portions too. Holy moly the narration is perfect! ✨

[@samuelgiraudo8748]

Hey, I really appreciate the disclaimer around 12 minutes into this video. Knowing that you see the criticisms of this scene as legitimate did actually do quite a lot to make me feel more comfortable. Looking forward to the rest of the video now :)

[@pineapplejester7191]

your videos are consistently so high quality, they're always a fucking delight to watch. thank you for taking the time to craft this one as well as you did!

[@SiraSpirit]

The voice acting here is on point.

[@miriam8376]

Personally, I’m of the opinion that problematic stuff in fiction is not inherently bad. I don’t even necessarily mind when problematic stuff in fiction isn’t punished. I prefer my problematic stuff to have in-story consequences. If a character is sexually abused by their partner, I want to see their journey and perspective. But I don’t have to agree to like it; I just want to see if I have anything to learn from a perspective different from my own. People tend to forget that “problematic” does not refer to an objective problem. It’s 100% subjective, and therefore only as meaningful as the complexity of thought behind it. And nothing makes me turn off the tv or put a book down like fiction depicting only unproblematic people who only do unproblematic things (neither of which even exist irl, btw). For one thing, we learn more from discourse than we do from non-problematic, aspirational fiction, which requires zero critical thinking to ingest. For another, perfection is boring AF, and I outgrew cardboard cutouts of flawless representation fighting evil villains when I was 8. The thing is, the scene is uncomfortable to watch for a lot of reasons. But the discourse about male sexual assault and the intersection of race educated a LOT of people who otherwise might’ve thought that kind of behavior is okay in real life.

[@rubysparks4915]

One thing I think a lot of the discourse doesn’t take into account is the era in which the original source material itself was actually written. SA culture has obviously been around forever but in the 90s and early aughts, which is the time period in which Julia Quinn wrote this book, SA was very very common in historical romance (it’s better by this point, but still informed by the 70s and 80s). The only difference, it’s usually women being the victims of it. I remember reading this book in my late teens, and being flabbergasted at the idea that a woman could do it to a man because up until that point, men couldn’t be raped. Even though I had had consent and bodily autonomy discussions, it was never couched in the terms that men also had the same boundaries, because our culture widely told me that an erect penis meant they wanted it. I was still very uneasy by the scene without fully understanding why. I actually stopped reading the story and never finished it, just skipping to the last page to see how it ended. Also, purity culture was still going very strong in 2000. That scene was never really discussed in book circles at the time in terms of her crossing his boundaries, but more that she was exploring her sexuality. Am I defending Julia Quinn for that scene? No, but I do believe that there are certain types of cultural understandings that informed that decision. Fast forward to 2020 and the fact that they still included that scene almost note for note is very problematic because we’ve come a long way in our understanding of ungendered autonomy as a culture (despite troglodytes with microphones and politicians), so I wish they’d taken a more nuanced approach to the situation. I agree that they are a fictional character and exploring. This dynamic is important as you said, but the way that they just dropped it in had a potential to trigger their audience and that is what is unforgivable.

[@johanandersson8252]

Laura Crone, please don’t be cancelled.

[@justk4929]

I love this video - I have to admit, I never understood why she couldn't of just verbally confronted him. He could've even been drunk and this would've led to him revealing the truth in a drunken state. Same anger, same 'nothing is perfect' but instead it could be viewed as Daphne truly being unable to play within societal rules and outright naming it, a character breakage and reforming. Daphne asks her handmaid, realises her husband has deceived her and looses it, flying into a rage and both have to confront their failure to be perfect, then everything plays out the same. I haven't at all read the book but it honestly doesn't take much effort to come up with a scene that lacks sex or rape and the writers are clearly willing to change from the book when they don't want to follow it in other ways. I actually just think the writers felt they couldn't think of a better conflict but couldn't commit to the level of betrayal in the book and sort of half played it out. I also think that's why it isn't acknoweleged as I just don't think the writers could cope with all of the gravitas that was due to that scene and again couldn't fully commit.

[@VidWatcher01]

In the book's epilog Daphne makes it a point to tell her daughters about conception & sex

[@sourbonez]

Yay! A new video from Laura :)

[@Tesseract_King]

Fwiw, i watched White Woman's Instagram out of context first -- and while my first impression was of it being a borderline misogynist punching down... But then the bridge hit, and it dropped into Serious Mode the first time, and i started sobbing like an infant, and in that moment I Got what he was trying to do. And there's an argument that the way he was dressed plays into "man in a dress" jokes, but, well, I'm a trans femme with facial hair and i honestly got the impression he was more playing a character than making fun? He was wearing stuff and being filmed in a way that, true to the Instagram vibe, was actually pretty flattering to his appearance. I dunno. Certainly doesn't excuse any arguments against that song, but i don't think it's inherently dependent on the context of Inside as a whole.

[@Ancusohm]

Oh... wow. I had no idea that it was so much worse in the book.

[@Black-Clad-Disaster]

We missed you so much!

[@alyj6398]

I genuinely love messy stories of characters doing morally wrong things, so I wasn't upset about that scene itself. And frankly, I think audiences expecting characters to have what amounts to a therapy session with each other to apologize for their wrongdoings is jusr unrealistic. Characters realizing they messed up is always gonna be way more subtle than an after school special. For me, the problem is often that the character growth arc is often given so little time to happen due to 8-13 episode seasons being the norm now that the development does not feel organic or genuine enough. (Bridgerton had TWO episodes to deal with this plot and give them the happy ending and deal with aide plots.)

[@keenjanene]

Hello KZbin alerts actually working. Let’s dive in!

[@merchantarthurn]

Fantastic video - I've never actually watched Bridgerton but thought out critique like this is so easily enjoyed without that background knowledge. Really great way of breaking down in easy to repeat arguments too - it's hard to know how to put "that was wrong" into words for people who don't get it, sometimes. Only about a tiny section of the video to be sure, but I really love hearing other people's interpretation of "White Woman's Instagram". They all seem different and very different to my own! It's the one song on the original Inside tracklist that made me cry on first watch and every single time I listen to it ahaha. From the moment "her" mum comes up (which is where, if I'm singing along in the car, i have to stop so I can still see the road lol), it feels like the story of the song shifts for me - from one that jokes about "white women" as a monolith to punch down at as a white dude to one that's about an individual with a life and tastes - some of which are corny or out of touch but like. Still hers. The way the music soars on "a goat cheese salad" makes me so stupidly emotional I don't even know how to explain it and like... the back-to-back grief and mundanity is so funny because it's so much of how a life looks when you're not the person living it. But I've also never disagreed with an interpretation of it so far and yours is no different - admittedly my memory of the video part of the song has eroded over time so my judgement of that aspect doesn't sit in my mind as much. Things can be so many different things... art, man

[@TeagueChrystie]

Yayyyyyyyy! New Laura!

[@HenryKathman]

Wanted to add a comment after watching on Nebula, cause I appreciate the amount of nuance and thought put into this discussion. As someone who didn’t have much interest in Brigerton and only really heard about it in the context of ‘the disc horse’, I think you brought about a lot of complexity to the analysis that I think often gets left out in such online discussion. Keep up the good work!

[@elliinspace]

This was such a great analysis. So thoughtful of not only the show and the scene but also of the culture we currently exist in. You definitely earned a new subscriber!

[@TheSneezefreak]

Let's goooo. i've never even seen Bridgerton, but it's sprung a lot of good content on here

[@MainelyMandy]

Doing this in a dress and converse is iconic 💜

[@padfoot2116]

When I was in the hospital someone got me the book to cheer me up. I was in no way prepared for that scene, and also felt that the book didn’t condemn her strongly enough (as in it didn’t feel to me that the author knew how bad this was). Knowing they left the scene in made me not want to watch the show. I’m not sure I want to see that scene regardless but I might check out the new show.

[@izzisart]

Honestly, you can skip that part and the show still works- I often do on rewatches. The show is still good outside of that, with the second season being the best (so far)

[@thegenderstealingfairy6948]

im and absolute slut for when commentary people have cool backgrounds, vibe/mood and outfits to fit what they want to convey or the subject at hand. EX: laura crone, shanspeare etc. the care and time into videos such as these, is so amazing cause it really gives the whole subject talked out to make the most sense!

[@endereverdeen]

thank you for sharing this analysis! i hadn’t thought of it this way

[@Roughling]

I've neither watched nor read Bridgerton and this video pulled me along regardless. I think you handled The Scene (tm) really well.

[@Zectifin]

The problem most people complain about SA in media is its usually happening to a woman to either A. be shocking and show how "adult" or "realistic" the media is, or B. to motivate a male character on some quest for vengeance or justice. This is happening to a male character, and its used for neither. It's a plot point that effects both character's relationship with each other and then they are able to grow and reconcile from the act. Like you showed, the narration itself says its framed as a "wretched" thing. Were getting dangerously close to a point where nobody has media literacy and you have idiots on the internet harassing an actor for playing a vile character. So we can't portray any kind of terrible act in media anymore. Guess we just act like they never happen.

[@evonnagale3045]

I haven't quite finished this yet, I just had to come here to say: i have now had to pause this several time just in the Let's Read A Book section. Yikes yikes yikes. It been some years since I've read romance novels, and now I think I'm going to have to very carefully curate anything I pick up from now on, because that triggered too many of my anxiety points.

[@evonnagale3045]

Ok, finished. Excellent breakdown of the whole situation. The editorial cut ins were well placed and amusing (though I hope you're doing OK). I'll definitely be checking out some of your other stuff.

[@GabiDAmico]

Don't let them take away your library card!

[@ruliak]

I can't watch this one due to sa triggers but I love your videos Laura!!

[@gingganggoolie]

with the disclaimer that i haven't and probably will never watch Bridgerton, I think you've changed my mind a bit here. What I was going to say is that art doesn't have to be a morality play, and that it's reasonable to expect the audience don't need to be told that sexual assault is bad, and it should be possible to have protagonists who do bad things without recieving divine retribution. What matters more is how it functions as part of the narrative. But having watched the video, I've mellowed somewhat. You're right that sexual assault of men isn't taken seriously, and media that depicts it as a punchline is partly the cause of that. So maybe it should've given Mrs Protagonist more concequences. I'm not as certain as I was an hour ago

[@NoiseDay]

Daphne in the book is so gross. The primary red flag is how often she says "I know." Girl, you don't know. Don't be so full of yourself.

[@torianne520]

Great video. Thanks for finishing it even when it took a long time.

[@blob9907]

The section about the book was like vine boom after vine boom... Really interesting discussion!!

[@laura0resa]

I loved the mention to Bo Burham's song. And I totally agree with your point there.

[@sealionpressblogeditor7550]

That is an excellent video essay and the conclusion, and comparison with Bo Burnham, is a compelling one.

[@martabarrales3112]

I put off watching this video when it first appeared on my home page and then when I finally clicked on it, I did it with my yikes face already on, but let me tell you, what a nuanced, excellent take.

[@Verocapote]

This is amazing and you explained it so eloquently

[@thatfangirl1145]

Me before watching the whole video: As someone that had to mostly stop watching the show bc of That Scene, cause it triggered me so much, and actually rewatching and listening to the whole thing again made me cry again, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE ARE BAD PEOPLE FOR STILL ENJOYING THE SHOW and specifically, that season and couple. This is a me problem. And as you said, they are fictional people. No one was actually assaulted lol I was and that's where I actually put a limit. It made me feel like shit therefore, I stopped watching. Also, the fans of the show said the dude shoulda told her the truth if he didn't wanted to get rwrded lol. So yeah. It was all very confusing to a lot of people. So I just removed myself. As one has to do when media reflects with fiction stuff in our personal REAL lives that make us upset for various reasons.

[@thatfangirl1145]

So I watched the whole vid now and though I get everything you said, my problem still lays with the way the show was not taking it as seriously as it was. I'm not saying that it needed to be talked about in a modern lense. Granted, I didn't stayed for long after it. So this might be a wrong take here, but what I saw was Simon's feelings not even being taken into account. Not talking about Daphne, or his friend... but by he himself. The show didn't gave us the usual moments that happens after women get violeted on period movies. He was just... himself but in a fight with his wife (and all the baggage of his childhood that in bad faith feels like the good ol' reason of "she needed to get violeted so she could grow up into herself... but even then, it's all made way more explicit). Yes, its a catalist for them to work on their character flaws narrative wise, but personally, it's not reason enough for me to stay and keep watching (so thats why i left just like i said above lol) And even then, I felt like they did a great disservice of this huge dark moment, one which happens in relationships sometimes, and that we have to deal and (if choosing to stay together) truly work on... Basically, I felt it was all too simplistic bc it didnt wanted us to unsympathize with Daphne, the heroine and protagonist of the story. And as much as I get the decision and all you said here, and also that I kinda respect that it was so dark in a pinky romance period show like this... they coulda handled it way better and with even more payoff in terms of them working in their relationship and choosing to have a family in the end. To me personally, is not narratively fullfiling, but on the contrary. Finally, I actually disagree with what you said in your last statement; acknowledging it is not the show pointing it out, like some sort of lamp -shading. Or that it tells us what just happened bc a lot may be confused or not realize. That's why I said that I wasnt looking for a modern lense type of putting the SA over the table. Even with the conext you pointed so very well, it was still lacking (personal opinion). It was very refreshing tho to watch this video. It gave way more info in many topics of the history and the books, and it was made with tons of effort and passion, which I always love. Thanks for making content and have a great one

[@ArielKalati]

THANK YOU I have been trying to word this to myself for ages and you worded it perfectly with all its nuance. excellent video!!!

[@HuntingViolets]

The last time I went to the theatre before the pandemic shut them down was to see Emma.

[@caitie8921]

Great analysis! Very thorough and nuanced.

[@jif635]

I was obsessed with this discourse when the show came out because I expected a light and fluffy romance, then this scene happened and it didn’t feel like the show addressed it well enough/properly. But your break down of the scene, the context, exploring ignorance as an explanation but not an excuse, how the scene was “worse” in the books and how the show does try to frame it negatively (emphasis on try). This is my favorite video on the subject (and trust me I watched a LOT), your thorough research paid off because your opinion is clear but it’s also bouncing off the research 👏 👏 making it much closer to a research/academic essay and not just an opinion piece. (Not to hate on opinion pieces lol).

[@lain-or-shine]

Man, I wish I had watched this before I read the book -- I've been trying to get into romance novels, and I'd say that the books are enjoyable to me, like... 40% of the time. Bridgerton, because of all the buzz with the show and whatnot, was on my radar and I borrowed it from the library because of that. Here's the thing: I had no idea "That Scene" was going to happen. I'd heard about the costuming, I'd heard about the sexy sex, I had literally no idea there was SA in that book that was never properly addressed. If you're just a casual observer of the phenomenon, I can speak from experience that NO ONE is talking about "That Scene," at least not loud enough to be heard above the gushing. It was really upsetting and kind of made me feel like I was insane, because why HADN'T I heard about it? Does no one else find that objectionable? I was happy when I googled it and found out that people were actually talking about it. I'm glad to hear the show is better, though I don't think I'll end up watching it. Not because there's no merit to the kind of story being told because it includes SA, but because I feel a little betryed by the lack of critical reaction from general audiences that lead me to read the book with so little forewarning.

[@chattylily]

incredible video! well done!

[@alwaysapirateroninace443]

This is great. Always love these videos.

[@FearlessSon]

I'm someone who resolved early in my life to never have children, and the anxiety that someone would do to me what Daphne did to Simon in the book is why I got myself sterilized before I became sexual active. Any failure in birth control method short of that would result in the creation of a life that doesn't deserve to be in this world any more than the rest of us do. I'm just glad I *had* that option.

[@bessdavies6440]

Unrelated: the musical instruments in Bridgerton are also anachronistic. I'm a luthier, and this stuff drives me nuts in every historical movie. GET YOUR INSTRUMENTS RIGHT! Steel wound strings? Modern chin rest and shoulder rests? Carbon fibre bows?! It gives me serious headaches. This is just how Bernadette feels about historical inaccuracies with costumes 😂

[@yosrafaiz9857]

I think a good way to keep the drama about simon essentially lying without the SA would have been to have them just get carried away (the pull out method is hardly effective contraception) and then have simon freak out right after and Daphne find out that way.. The argument would still happen etcetera no SA needed...

[@cirrus808]

im confused on this discourse. i saw exactly what u saw without having to think deeply abt it 😭

[@ultimatemovierecaps]

Great commentary my friend.

[@lithigos]

I clicked on the video mainly cause I was curious, I'm not part of many online discussions and wasn't aware of any discourse, but also I skipped all of the sex scenes and didn't even know what scene was being referred to as "that scene" and this video put a while different context to the show for me.

[@kathrynbaker7278]

Thank you!

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

If one guy in this entire show protects a woman from being ruined says, “i don’t want her with someone like me. She deserves better”, my head would explode because while minor, it is a start to that man understanding the double standards. Not justifying the action, but I prefer protecting a woman for someone who is actually worthy of her. But either way, just let someone explore their sexuality if they want to. Just use protection.

[@BooksRebound]

Very late to this video but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about a similar scene in a recent season of The Handmaid's Tale where June is sleeping with her husband and violates his consent. I thought it was super fascinating given the whole history of her character and the context and subtext of the show and its themes. Theres just a lot to dive into in regard to that scene in particular and of her treatment of her husband since reuniting.

[@delhatton]

tempest in a teapot

[@heytherenewton9302]

really good video ALSO please tell Matthew Tiemstr his voice is very bisexual sounding and i mean that as the highest compliment

[@Pakushy]

Why are your shoes on the bed? Dishonor