The Second Coming and Paul: Did He Expect to Survive to the End, Simon Gathercole

The general view among scholars is that Paul expected to survive until the return of Christ, and that he also expected many of those in his churches to survive to the end. After all, when writing to the Thessalonians for example, he says: “we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep” (1 Thess. 4.15).
The implication of this view is that Paul got it wrong. This lecture will challenge that assumption, demonstrating that there are better ways to read these key texts and that in fact, Paul was agnostic about whether he would survive until the second coming (parousia) or not.
Simon Gathercole is Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity and Director of Studies in Theology at Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge.
www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/direct...
"Prof. Gathercole's first degree was in Classics and Theology in Cambridge, after which he pursued doctoral research under the supervision of James D.G. Dunn in Durham. He also studied for short periods at the University of Tübingen and the Jewish Theological Seminary, New York.
He previously taught in the University of Aberdeen (2000-2007). He was editor of the Journal for the Study of the New Testament for a number of years and is now a co-editor of the journal Early Christianity. Dr Gathercole's main academic interest is the interpretation of the New Testament.
Having begun as a classicist and also worked in the field of early Judaism, he is particularly fascinated by the connections between the New Testament and the literature contemporaneous with it. His principal theological interests are christology, and the doctrine of the atonement. He is currently writing a book on the way in which canonical and apocryphal Gospels treat the early Christian kerygma.
Dr Gathercole would be particularly interested in supervising doctoral research in Pauline studies, the christology of the Gospels, and extra-canonical Gospels."
Books by Simon Gathercoles:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08...
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
Lanier Theological Library- www.laniertheologicallibrary.org
The Stone Chapel Podcast- www.laniertheologicallibrary....
Biblical Literacy- biblical-literacy.org
LTL Facebook / laniertheologicallibrary
LTL Instagram / laniertheologicallibrary

[@wapperjaw8282]

I don't have the time to watch all of this and will have to view it later, but I will comment on this subject. I am truly amazed at how one scripture can confuse so many scholars as to what Paul believed and they fail to consider the rest of what he wrote, not applying what Paul wrote himself at 2 Tim 3:16,17. And come to such a *stupid conclusion that what Paul preached failed to happen.* NO … what Paul wrote did not fail! There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate that he had even had a change of mind, and that would go contrary to Holy Spirit upon him, since his conversion. Paul knew he would die, and he knew he would be dead for an unknown period of time. When Paul says: “we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep” - 1 Thess. 4.15 he is not referring to himself personally, that he would be alive. He's referring to those of his class, which is a group that has the same hope to rule with Christ. (Rev 5:10) Paul wrote, after acknowledging Jesus as the first to be resurrected, “For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.” - 1 Cor 15: 22, 23 Jesus himself did not know when he would begin to rule, how would Paul know? As his writing shows those who belong to Christ would be resurrected during *Jesus’ presence (parousia).* Paul also wrote, “. . .Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. *True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work,* but only until the one who is right now acting as a *restraint is out of the way.* Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his *presence.”* - 2Th 2:3-8 Those who acted as a *restraint* to the apostasy of the lawless one during the first century were the Apostles which Paul was obviously a part of and knew when the restraint was removed, is when the Apostles "out of the way,* passed away in death. So after the death of the Apostles, the lawless one gained control over an unknown period of time of the Christain congregation. And then when the time was right the Lawless one would be revealed during *Jesus' presence (parousia).* *Conclusion: Paul wrote he would die and be resurrected during Jesus’ presence (parousia). There is nothing in Paul's other writings that has any similar thought that his beliefs failed! There is no evidence of what Paul wrote failed. Instead, the evidence shows scholars took one scripture and miss applied it failing to consider the rest of what Paul wrote.*

[@taclpodcast]

I admire your attempt to dismiss Paul's expectation of an imminent Parousia, but I believe you're wrong for several reasons. Paul actually tells the Corinthian church they should abstain from marriage and other things because the "form of this world is passing away." Why would he urge people in his lifetime to not get married if he was agnostic about the time of the Parousia? He also promises the Thessalonians relief from persecution IN THEIR LIFETIME, when Christ returned (2 Thess. 1:6ff.).

[@wapperjaw8282]

@@taclpodcast When Paul converted there was a period of peace as Acts 9:31 tells us “ Then, indeed, the congregation throughout the whole of Ju·deʹa and Galʹi·lee and Sa·marʹi·a+ entered into a period of peace, being built up; and as it walked in the fear of Jehovah and in the comfort of the holy spirit,+ it kept on multiplying.” But as I explained after all the Apostles who acted as a restraint died, history shows the man of sin began to take over the congregation basically coming to an end, that would then be revived in the time of the end, during Christ presence (Parousia). Meaning the Time of the end during the last days Mt 24. Concerning marriage Paul recommended to abstain and live a simple life to make it easier to preach the kingdom. It was not a demand to abstained. And I did not say that Paul was agnostic about his future at all. Your going beyond my words. He knew he would die but he also knew he would be resurrected when the time came and would rule with Jesus over the earth. Re 5:10; 1Co 15:22, 23 I am a bit confused on your thoughts … Just what are saying … you don’t believe Paul died??? Or do you think what Paul thought was to happened didn’t happen? Was Paul not executed? How did he act when he knew he was going to die? Are you tossing out scripture “. . .so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, *afterward those who belong to the Christ during his (Parousia) presence.”* - 1Co 15:22, 23? “. . .because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, *and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first…”* - 1Th 4:16 *This is for that small number I spoke about.* *Christendom teaching of the resurrection is not Biblical.* *If the resurrection did begin as some were teaching why did Paul correct that view?* Paul made it clear that any such teaching is a deviation of the truth saying, “… reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy•me•naeʹus and Phi•leʹtus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, *saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some …”* - 2Ti 2:16-18 He also made it clear anybody teaching false doctrine must be rejected to the point of removing them from the congregation saying, “… and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.” - 1Ti 1:20 Concerning 2 Thessalonians 1:6 but let’s consider 7 & 8 also. “It is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the *revelation of the Lord Jesus* from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8) Jesus is head of the congregation but his rule did not begin then. 2 Thess 1:6-8 is when Jesus begins to rule. Everything is happening as Bible prophecy said it would …