The SEPTA West Chester Line: Of Ambition and Reality | How We Get Around Philly Episode 1

[@AceP219]

As a former WCRR volunteer, I say it’s a great experience to work with them for anyone interested in railroading. Now I work as an OCS (catenary) engineer and I am sure that all ocs poles will need to be replaced for electrification of the line.

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

I have little doubt about that, especially on repeat visits. Everyone at WCRR was amazing, and it was a blast to talk to them. Even a year after the fact, I'm very grateful to them for sitting down with me about it. Pretty cool you're working on OCS systems now too!

[@TheBlacktressDiaries]

A train to West Chester would have saved all of my college commuting friends from either being constantly late because the bus is stuck in traffic or driving some rundown hooptie and getting parking tickets because it's impossible to know where you can park on college campuses. For as big as West Chester University is, it blows my mind that there is no regional rail stop there. To me that's such a no-brainer for a state university town. Great video!

[@Splenda257]

When there was a West Chester University train station it was used by only a trickle of students who used it.

[@yasnac7576]

​@@Splenda257 I used it. The old MP54 cars were still running when I rode them. Yes you had to transfer in Media.

[@bulldogbrower6732]

I hope that you come to Harrisburg and do a story on the Harrisburg International Airport. Here the Airport Authority closed down the air passenger terminal built in 1973 and built a new terminal in 2004 at a cost of 120 million dollars to connect it to rail service. The terminal and airport operate on the authority of the Susquehanna Area Regional Airport Authority. Unfortunately the rail service was never connected. Let me reiterate, the reason for the new terminal was to connect it to rail. Commuters inside the city of Harrisburg could mount a train in center city, a block from the Capitol complex and take the 9 mile ride to the suburban international airport located in Middletown and save a lot of money and lessen the burden driving in this congested State Capitol city. Commuters from the east coming from Lancaster, Ephrata, New Holland, Lititz, Spooky Nook, Mount Joy, and Elizabethtown could take the train directly into the airport. What’s the problem ? The owner of a large parking lot adjacent to the airport doesn’t want air passengers to arrive via train . He wants them to drive to the airport and park in his parking lot and pay for the car storage while they are away on their trip. Can you believe that this terminal has never been connected to the rail which runs by the airport so that some private parking lot owner is fed ? How can government work this way. They tax the air carriers (your ticket price) and the fuel and use that fund for airport improvements all over the United States. Nobody complains because the average consumer never sees where this money goes. Please expose this injustice and allow us to use the most economic transportation to get to the airport, instead of forcing people to drive there as the train wizzes by.

[@ft9kop]

The bus ride from 69th street to West Chester is Absolutely brutal

[@ghostengineer]

Never mind the bus ride, just driving between those two points is dreadful in general

[@Pensyfan19]

Incredibly well made documentary! You covered every planning and railway engineering aspect of this long discussed branch line proposal with great detail. This video answered many questions the people have held about this branch for years, and also clarified various proposals and news surrounding the branch and its status. I for one support the battery powered Pop Up Metro plan as some rail service is better than nothing, even if it's not a fancy overhead wire powered MU. I'm relieved to hear that RDC still has interest in Pop Up Metro (hosted by Carnegie Mellon University) as its concept of cheaply restoring passenger service on countless branch lines has tremendous unrealized potential and could bring countless more people in more remote suburbs back to the rails. Keep up the great work and I can't wait to see where this channel and the projects it covers go next, as it is because of videos like this that ultimately rally support for more public transit that the world desperately needs.

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

Honored to hear that from you, Pensyfan! I definitely have a lot of ideas I'm working on, including one I'll be starting almost immediately after finishing this! It would be great to see something like Pop-Up Metro happen for long lost services like this, especially for laying the groundwork for something with the classic SEPTA Silverliners. I just need to see how they respond to the concerns raised by SEPTA that were mentioned. Something is better than nothing in this case, and if Pop-Up Metro can get a foothold, I think the concept will take off. Other companies seem to want to try their hand at it, so it is certainly an exciting time for rail restoration ideas.

[@albertcarello619]

I'd like to see the overhead catenary reinstalled and reinstated in Westchester.

[@tjsnyder1968]

Great video - I rode this line from West Chester to Lansdown (I attended The Friends School there) from 1979 to 1982. As kid who loved trains this was paradise. Also my mom volunteered at a shelter for women in Wawa, some days I would get there. Spent many hours walking the old Octoraro branch. Have vivid memory of train going very slow at Glen Mills Quarry,across the switch there.

[@dmac6004]

Excellent analysis. It is rare on KZbin that one sees a fair and unbiased analysis. Thank you. Two comments 1) I find it interesting that you chose to show NJTransit's light rail river line and alse the dual mode locomotives. 2) NJ Transit is reconstructing a similar line from Netcong to Andover, rehabilitation of the DL&W cutoff, a similar distance. There needs to be in my opinion a larger commitment of the elected officials in Harrisburg to fund rail transportation. As a NJ resident who uses the PATPK I find it abhorrent that so of my tolls (which I do not mind paying) are stolen to be used for transportation and yet these kinds of projects cannot be funded. Again across the Delaware there seems to be a greater commitment to rail transportation, it is not without difficulties, as the last year have shown, but it is a sincere and ultimately funded commitment. Wish that PA could see that. But then again we are a totally urban state and have different demands and interests.

[@PositionLight]

Major issue with West Chester service is that its way quicker for someone around West Chester to drive to Exton and catch an R5 (or Keystone) instead of go to a closer R3 station and take the curvy route in.

[@qjtvaddict]

For long trips yes

[@frankwillkie260]

My friend & I went to boarding School near Media 1970’s & often rode now SEPTA - Philly.

[@jonathanstensberg]

If we’re serious, we should already be talking about how to get service to Chad’s Ford, Kenner Square, and Oxford.

[@billjameson1254]

There’s an old trolley route that runs there

[@Pennoak]

The Octorara line used to run from Nottingham, Pennsylvania, to Wawa, Pennsylvania. With the build-up of housing along this rail line, it might be feasible now. Then, transfer at the new WAWA SEPTA Station.

[@billjameson1254]

​@@Pennoak We have a few diesels, but we'd need more of them, and we'd have to re-lay rails, ties, rebuild/replace the bridges, new signals, rebuild the stations, and more. The entire line would need a rebuild, in other words. Similar to West Chester's needs, only even more intensive, and to serve an even smaller population center. And we can't even get West Chester built/expanded towards. What we need is ridership. It still hasn't recovered from the Pandemic. WFH has curbed commuter patterns, and service hasn't returned to pandemic levels, either. We're in danger of truncating, and there is no political will at all for expanding anything except highways.

[@arthurklose2300]

Great video! I grew up in Media until I was eight and remember riding the trolley frequently. I moved out to Downingtown at eight and was in West Chester frequently and remembered seeing the Septa trains on the West Chester line as a kid. We always drove to Paoli to take the train to Center City though on the Main Line. It was always a decent trip. Thanks for this, it was nice seeing the old area again as I've been stuck in NC for years now.

[@egbutler114]

I really enjoyed the video and interviews. I remember when the line was electrified and we ran training trains to West Chester. Certainly, with the growth of the suburban areas around Philadelphia, service on this line should be restored and the line upgraded to modern standards. As for the West Chester RR, a possible solution for them if service was restored would be to restore the connection from West Chester to Frazier. Pa. or reopen the Octorara, branch.

[@sheeperskipps]

1. Awesome video, I learned a lot! 2. I'm by no means an expert in trains, transportation, planning, or even heritage rail lines but you can tell the history of these things based on investment and location. Money was put into Exton because SEPTA and Amtrak were able to predict the growth that region had over the next 20 years. What they didn't anticipate is West Chester bouncing back into being such an economic hub in Chester County again and renewed activity at West Chester University. Having a line that serves Exton, Downingtown, Thorndale is all well and good but there was an unprecedented return of people and activity to the West Chester Borough that SEPTA did not account for. That's why the line is in the shape that it is and further investment was halted. That's why this is such a difficult disscussion to be had because the infrastructure is lacking 3. Cheney University lies on this line and should be a major part of this discussion. It is a state system HBCU and has been in decline due to low enrollment. Student housing can only accommodate so many students while the rest have to come from commuting and historically, those students have come from Philadelphia. If the historical rail company had a different line, then maybe I could see something else happening, but they NEED this line. It sucks but that's a big reason the college was even established here in the first place (even though times have changed and demands waned). 4. I recognize the issues that the current track has but that shouldn't stop in the way of progress and innovation. I really appreciate the way you presented ideas, clearly showing your biases but gave open discussion to other options. Having a discussion with RDC would have been better to balance things out as they have updated their initial assessment to better reflect the needs of those older bridges you mentioned, but this video does a great job even without that. Thank you!!!

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

There is no doubt in my mind that this line would lead to a lot of good, especially with that explosive growth around West Chester you mentioned. I can definitely see the line being as vital as it was in the past if it were restored and grow beyond its original ridership estimates in the coming years with population growth. I totally understand the enthusiasm that the borough council has for it, and the Pop-Up Metro particularly. I didn't know of the revised proposal from RDC before I released, but I do wonder if SEPTA's big safety issue is addressed, since that seems to be the biggest determining factor for it to be remotely considered viable. I'll give it another look over for sure. Also, thanks for the feedback! It means a lot!

[@johnchambers8528]

Thanks for the video on the West Chester line. I live in Lansdowne, Pa and ocassionaly used the old service to West Chester. As you noted it’s main failure was SEPTA only running a few one seat ride trains through to Philadelphia. And that concept was not a new SEPTA decision. The old PRR and later Penn Central service had that pattern. I believe one reason for that was because it was a one track line west of Media. If SEPTA did decide to return to West Chester I don’t see why the West Chester Railroad would have to end service. Since all their engines and cars are standard railroad specification. They would only have to upgrade their engines and control cars to meet whatever signal system SEPTA uses. I am sure some accommodation could still be made to store their trains in West Chester. Other than that it would just come down to agreeing on sharing the route on days when the West Chester Railroad would want to run. In fact if the track repairs were made and station upgrades done I don’t see why the West Chester Railroad could not provide shuttle train service to WAWA just to get things going again. And with a high level cross platform change of trains it would not be that bad for the passengers. But again this only works if SEPTA and the West Chester Railroad can come to an agreement to operate together. One of the reasons it costs so much today to restore service to old rail lines is every operator wants to make it a new first class service with all the newest features. If instead they just looked at how to restore service including having to be ADA compliant it could be done at a far lower cost. Getting the service started should be the goal. Upgrades can come later especially if the service becomes used by more passengers and that helps justify spending more money.

[@stephenkeever6029]

Great research! Glad you made this interesting video and hope you do more.

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

Thanks! I definitely have more on the way. In fact, I started filming for my second and third videos today! Expecting the second one in mid-September or so.

[@birdman9632]

Interesting video I’ve always found septa and their history very interesting. I always found the fox chase line sad because apparently it used to go up further north and connect lines. I think one of the biggest frustrations with east coast transit is how it doesn’t really connect suburbs to suburbs as much. It would be cool if different transit agencies would use rail lines to have crosstown suburb service but hopefully one day rail improve all over the country

[@StephenCarlBaldwin]

Fascinating transportation story -- great video. I learned a lot and am looking forward to more installments!

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

Thanks! I'm working on my second one right now, and should be out in a couple weeks, this one about Philly's trolleys, and typing up the script for a third.

[@benzzc3626]

These videos give the impression that these trains are slow because most show them approaching stations. This line operates at up to 60 MPH--slower than some other SEPTA lines but fast when you consider the alternatives like congested Baltimore Pike.

[@davidjerrido5096]

Love this video! Watch it constantly to absorb the info. Love the WC Railroad is utilizing that stretch from West Chester to Glen Mills.

[@85Stang331]

There use to be an old turn table in those woods

[@heavenlydays2838]

Nice Rail History Doc.

[@SoapBoxMediaTV]

There's an active query in Glen Mills that provides ballast to the railroads(Amtrak).

[@mikenbevtrips]

Great video , thank you!

[@scotblair3717]

Nice vid Stevie... Looks like a lot of work went into this. 👍

[@antoinetaylor8516]

This i must say is an excellent documentary!

[@a-ramenartist9734]

voluenteering at a railroad sounds awesome but I live in philly with no car lol so I'd have to take a long commute

[@PRODLAM-vk9we]

Steve you’re the man I wanna know more

[@JPaul60]

I ran West Chester trains in the 80's. The DuPont family shut it down after an accident at Cheney Woods Rd crossing that killed two Dupont family members..

[@buffaloarearailfan9928]

Excellent Documentary! Unfortunately Passenger Rail is something that is taken for granted all too much in the U.S. I feel like we as Railfans all have to get involved and ask ourselves, what can we do to improve this situation, and how. The more Passenger Rail projects we start, the more communities we will be able to connect and link up with major cities.

[@qjtvaddict]

Admit it it largely doesn’t exist

[@kevinhoward9593]

Hurricane Agnes was detrimental to the already fragile state of the Railroads of the NE. I ready somewhere that Amtrak uses the quarry at Lenni for their ballast.

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

They do, though with the track in the state that it was for the longest time, Amtrak stopped running Ballast trains in the 2010s if I recall. Now it's moved by truck. I even recall seeing pictures of a derailment of an Amtrak ballast train on the line at Lenni back in the 80s, so that gives you some idea of how bad it was getting then.

[@brentrn]

Very educational and well researched. You answered a lot of questions I had about the feasibility of extending the line to West Chester. One suggestion: Get your camera operator to not shake the camera, or use a motion stabilizer. Keep up the good work!

[@JoeyLovesTrains]

Nice documentary!

[@buildintotrains]

This video is incredibly well put together. Definitely earned yourself a new subscriber 😃

[@ashenAshley]

this video is really great!! excited to see where you go from here. I gasped at the diesel septa trains

[@upshurwhittock3826]

I wonder if you might be willing to do a video on the Octoraro Branch. It split from the West Chester branch right at Wawa, and, long, long, *long* ago, ran all the way to the Susquehanna River. It saw more regular service, including passenger trains, as far as Oxford. From Chadds Ford, the tracks still run to Oxford, and freight still runs along there, but hurricane Agnes in 1972 washed out the tracks from Chadds Ford to Wawa. That stretch of Chester County along the Baltimore Pike has seen a great deal of growth, and to my mind, bringing back regular passenger service, while a long way off, even if we began tomorrow, is something we should be thinking about. SEPTA even owns the right of way, all the way out to Oxford, I believe. Anyway, the history is interesting, and the prospect of passenger service is one maybe worth doing a piece on. Also the Quakertown branch. And the Newtown branch. And service to Pottstown. And... But you get the drift.

[@qjtvaddict]

The newton branch should be an extension of the broad st line and takeover of fox chase line. The other 2 should extend to reading and Allentown/Bethlehem

[@Beerman111980]

You could make a great horror movie with that creepy Easter Bunny terrorizing people on the old train: "Murder on the West Chester Express."

[@qjtvaddict]

Pop up metro can be wild in Texas

[@tylerg7567]

This was very interesting and informative. Thank you for sharing !

[@superbrownsheep3777]

My City used to have rail service until the 1970s when the Monon line was shut down. Its fate: turned into a Rail Trail. They kept the Old Station building intact in Carmel so that’s good. There was also an interurban ROW that used to exist and also ran through my hometown. I actually got some photos of the abandoned interurban ROW. of course the Tracks have been torn up since. I don’t exactly know the history of it since it’s not talked about as much as the history of the Monon rail, but yeah those are all the abandoned rail that is left in my hometown of Carmel. since then transit has been an issue in my city. There’s constant uncertainty over whether to restore Bus service to Carmel Indiana, but i’m not gonna talk about it right now because it’s kind of a rabbit hole of sorts

[@superbrownsheep3777]

Also what are your thoughts on the Light Rail proposals that have been going around in Staten Island NY for quite some time?

[@djvt574]

great video! I love the level of detail. one tip might be to invest in some video stabilization but not a big deal. thanks for making this

[@gdrriley420]

Jointed rail and only 90lbs are fine for a 25-30mph operation and even at 60mph its okay. it cost more to upkeep over CWR but with only fairly lightweight EMUs and service hourly its not a big deal. the bigger issue is likely bridges and ties. Ideally you get CWR but 78-134ft relay rail is a decent stopgap or given how good those rail looks just bring in a welding truck and weld 2-4 sticks then send a grinding train over it to get the profile right. single track isn't an issue till you want to run more than 4-5RT hourly if you can hold swiss level of timetable you can hit 6RT. The historical society person is 100% wrong they could interline with the commuter operation and it would work just fine, with all diesels adding signaling and positive train control is easy. Upkeep would be done by SEPTA if they are ruining the service so MOW crews aren't an issue. the battery trains have a ton of issues, they don't meet FRA requirements so they can't share the line with anything else and they use a non standard platform height for NA at not ~22-24in or ~48in the FLIRTs are far better units as the meet FRA standards for those not in the northeast they have low platforms and they can be ordered in dual or tri mode. OCS+battery, OCS+battery+diesel, OCS+diesel, diesel+battery ECT.

[@pavld335]

This was very enjoyable.

[@Splenda257]

If a person in the Philly area could just hop on a Septa regional rail train and get to some other destination in the Philadelphia area in a reasonable time, everyone would be doing it. The reality is that regional rail stations aren't generally by anywhere people go. The problem with Septa regional rail is that it's designed to take people into Center City and back, and, despite the size of the system, it isn't useful for other purposes.

[@JayKarpwick]

Much of SEPTA's rail system (RRD, trolleys, subway/el) is hobbled by its 19th-century heritage. As you note the commuter lines were designed to take people into Center City and back, which was the norm when the lines were laid out ~150 years ago. But at the same time they enabled growth in the suburban areas they served, growth that helped create relatively self-sufficient communities that were connected by roads instead of rails. SEPTA's bungled attempts to create some kind of "ring" service (e.g., SVM) combined with the region's long-term allergy to investing in ANY rail improvements has soured any future possibility of connecting the system's spokes outside of Center City.

[@yasnac7576]

After you're doing the Westchester line and or the Octourora line. You might want to look into why the trolley now ends in media. My maternal grandmother's family was one of the original settlers of the Delaware county Chester county area. Before the line ended in media it actually went down the hill on route 1 up the hill through Elwyn institute and up through Lima. And there was the Bernie line that ran down through mancher road into Chester approximately where the rails to trails bike trail is now . I know this because she used to tell me stories about how the trolleys would derail and the conductor rerailed his car they were only still on single cars and they were a third rail DC powered system. And that many farm animals who got mixed up with the rail were electrocuted. I'm not sure what the company was it might have been an early red arrow but might be something to look into. Some of the old rights of ways are visible in the woods in Aston along Chester Creek up into Aston Mills. She used to tell me too that dairy products were usually collected and taken all the way to 69th Street for processing. Interesting stuff for your grandparents can tell you about this area . Oh one other ask... What about the many small bridges over Chester Creek and Roads what was the decision to repair them?

[@JoeyLovesTrains]

8:27 what are those coaches??? They look very small

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

I haven't been able to find too much on the specifics, but I gather that they are ex-Reading cars, since the trains they ran on the services pictured were former Reading lines with ex-Reading locomotives and equipment. It's definitely something I'll dig into, since I'd love to make a video about SEPTA's quasi-intercity trains at some point.

[@Dexter037S4]

To be honest, I had a brain wave about the historic railroad and coexistence. For example, Through Service only running in peak hours, so during the Off-Peak hours, the historic line runs the service for example, and on weekends.

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

It's something that's been brought up a few times if I recall. Nice in theory, but could be an issue regardless as SEPTA would likely want to run through service to West Chester hourly on the off-peak. It's going to require a lot of perfect timing and good infrastructure improvements to make it so. I hope I'm wrong, but it would definitely be tricky to get right. I still hold out hope though.

[@BRIANDER100]

at 42:39 the picture lists west chester railroad historical society . what's the website address ? i was looking for it and couldn't find it

[@SteveGettingAroundPhilly]

I assume this is the one you're looking for. wcrailroad.com/

[@BRIANDER100]

@@SteveGettingAroundPhilly that's not it......at 42:39 the picture says west chester railroad historical society not west chester railroad ...where did you get that picture from ?

[@harrisonbalduf3290]

Anyone know whatever happened to AllEarth Rail? They had a dozen RDC's that could be run on biofuel, and start running the line today with minimal infrastructure requirements....

[@Db_traveler]

My concern is that they were limited to 10k, not 30k as they are now. More supply may decrease the profitability. Too bad we cant see how series 1 does until crowd funding for series 3 or 4 happens.

[@maedero05]

Great dillema, SEPTA want all control back. Metro battery car seem little out of the urban concept, in UK some lines do have them but that's replacement of existing urban transport.Penndot estimate indeed qui right, a combination with a tramway run by the present heritage maybe the only to get around the budget asked. Rural, viable it's ver hard to come by !

[@pleappleappleap]

Isn't it the Pennsylvania *Commonwealth* legislature?

[@GILLIGFAN]

Yes

[@meanmetalmike666]

How about Amtrak revives Service between Baltimore and Harrisburg via port road branch

[@MidnightAspec]

Nice seeing Arrow IIs (7:50) again, granted they were complete garbage and largely long gone now.

[@scottjs5207]

I really hope at least something halfway decent happens.

[@GILLIGFAN]

They need to stop the song and dance and get the West Chester Line reopened PERIOD Edit- I firmly disagree with PennDOT and feel it would be worth restoring

[@carltonkeys6205]

That's why Lehigh Valley pa will never get passenger rail service restored

[@thomasbrickleful]

lets be honest, you are not from philly. i mean "Philadelphia" your from west Chester. which is chester county.