The serious problems with Jazz and AI (and your opinion matters)

[@SharpElevenMusic]

What do you think about this? Is the track seperation ethically justified for educational purposes? I tend towards a "no", although it has brought me very valuable lessons. A hard question, so instead of overthinking this for more than a year, I thought I'd just present it to you all so you can give your opinion and perhaps we can come to good ideas and values that way. Fun extra question: do you see any other potential ideas including AI and jazz education? Discuss below in the comments, this might turn out very thought-provoking, which is the goal of this video. Here is a link to the full Desmond soli arrangement (with myself as lead!) 😊: kzbin.info/www/bejne/foHJfnV9epajrKc Best of holidays to you and your family! /Jorre

[@luke125]

I love how he quotes “The Rite of Spring” in there.

[@SharpElevenMusic]

He made that little motif into a variation on a blues and named it funny enough "Sacre Blues" with a nod to the original French title "Sacre Du Printemps". His variation on the theme and further exploration is amazing on there, this is the original track kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4LMqKqibrWkjKs Pretty much starting with the rite of spring theme, varying a bit more second chorus, rd chorus he goes into a gorgeous classical type of riff variation, then he uses the most filthy of blues licks in the altissimo's tha twould make many smooth jazzers envyous, to end with some exotic scale explorations. Incredibly virtuoso and creative if you'd ask me

[@luke125]

@ Big time.

[@johnrogers7812]

The problem about AI is it removes the learning process for people and makes short cuts to results. Life gets boring without learning the ropes yourself. Overly refined music lacks character nothing like a raw genuine improvisation.

[@coajrmusic]

I feel one can practice and study anything they want, performance brings in the aspect of integrity. One must play what they appear to be playing before an audience, if I understand at least part of your question. I often perform with tracks, but I'm not trying to fool anyone, and sometimes joke about my band-in-a-can. They're very good, (and recorded by real musicians).

[@lyntedrockley7295]

Hi Jorre, great that you've invited discussion. I think I commented on the Desmond 100 video about using AI for something like this, (not knowing you were already working on it) and in other circles I have suggested it be used for isolating solos to aid transcription. I don't exactly know how you go about this so I'd really love you to do a video explaining what you did. As for the ethics and authority, no there is nothing to consider. As long as its not done for commercial gain to the detriment of the source, anything is fair game. Even synthesising a solo or performance in the style of someone else is fine as long as we know that it is generated and if done for commercial gain and the source or owners of the source are compliant and rewarded. But for analysis and better understanding, why not? There are many AI generated 'videos' on YT of 1930's style songs with male and female voices and small group to big band accompaniment but with somewhat rude lyrics that cannot possibly be authentic. How this is done I do not know but it is entirely convincing Its not seriously intended to be anything but a parody. However the quality of the result does sound absolutely authentic and we can only assume better and better results in the future. However these are imitating a style, not a specific artiste. But I would love to hear AI versions of Getz ot Coltrane, to understand the style, the approach the essence. There are even possibilities of synthesised collaborations or merging of styles. Can AI play me Giant Steps by 'Desmond'? As long as its not passed off as being the real thing, and the real thing is not diminished, then why not? The real danger is not what KZbinrs like yourself do, its what the likes of YT, Spoti**** Appl***** do. And even then, if say asking Alex**** to 'Play Stan Getz' becomes to mean 'play something Getz-like synthesised on the spot' and Getz's family are amply rewarded (not likely given behaviours so far) rather than being cheated of royalties, then thats fine. We shall see.

[@JoeSorce]

I think that two things are necessary to assure the integrity of content of any kind in the age of generative AI. One is that a content creator that uses it needs to disclose that it was generated by AI or even altered by AI. The second is that platforms that employ it must be fully accountable.

[@bombardboxing]

It's cool, man, too use it for practice. I'd like to be able to remove piano from recordings so I can fill in the piano for myself. That's more insulting than soloing one musician to study them haha! "Nah, Herbie, I don't wanna hear you on this track..." I also would love to be able to adjust the volume of each instrument to my tastes and whatever speakers I'm using. Sometimes the drums are too loud or the bass too quiet in my car, for instance. Thanks for what you do.

[@PiotrBarcz]

If you're not using it to: 1. Steal jobs 2. Sell it off as new music (which is ridiculous to do, I'm pretty sure it falls into public domain the second it's created) 3. Using models that use unlicensed training material (literally the biggest issue is not even with the code it's the way the material was obtained, illegally) then I could care less. It's a novelty toy like everything else, have fun with it, stop going on murderous rants against lines of code and deal with the developers who are using the tech wrong since THEY are the problem, not the machine learning algorithm!

[@Triler500]

When im making arrangements i use ai stem splitters to be able to listen to details of different instruments much easier! Generative ai is defnetly a no, but using ai like this for educational and training purposes is a very good use of the tools

[@MihaiIordacheJazz]

Hi. I’m a sax player. I passionately hate generative AI. But this seems ok. I wish I had something like this when I was practicing from the Omnibook.

[@huichisum]

I think you are good enough even without the help of AI. That's how all our ancestors learned this music, they kept listening to it over and over again to get all the nuances and details in it, and that produces lots of Master that we know.

[@mus1970]

It is definitely a dilemma. I'm from a different camp professionally (translation rather than music business) but AI, especially GenAI/LLMs, is causing headaches for sure. We do need to deal with it some way or other, I think 2025 will be interesting for all of us...

[@GangesMode]

I don't think there is any ethical issue with using AI to solo a voice. Have been doing something similar for years using EQ. However, I think in the very short-term future, there will be AI solutions that can completely transcribe solos automatically. That presents the danger of atrophy for us. It will be very attractive to immediately and automatically have the written music for any musical information, but half the value comes from the actual act of transcribing and how it improves ones ears and skill. Idk, I am not too worried about AI, but I do think it will change human listeners' tastes. I think people will start to appreciate "humanness" and mistakes more, and live music will start to be valued more (including livestreams or any video which proves a human played it). I was messing around at the piano the other night playing random stuff and thinking how we can't even explain the mistakes we make or why we make certain choices, trying out a weird chord movements etc. Thomas Edison and the 20th century of recorded music made us forget that music is a physical thing, more than cerebral, it is physical, accomplished and felt by meat bodies. This will be appreciated again.

[@SharpElevenMusic]

You're most probably right on the transcribing part, it's a matter of time. And on your second point, I have been thinking and especially hoping for such a counter movement back to more humanness, especially more towards genre's like jazz that very much embody being human. But I'm not sure about that, I'm more hoping for it. My more pessimistic side says that people are natural lazy beings goin for the shortcuts and the fast food, but we'll see. Interesting topic. I know more people must have been isolating tracks, but the fact that many people do it does not necessarily make it right. I wouldn't really like my studio solo tracks to be shared without permission tbh. Feels very confronting usally

[@PiotrBarcz]

I use a machine learning algorithm to transcribe piano audio into midi but it'll never be perfect, it takes hours of editing to make it presentable anyway, it just cuts out a huge part of the workload.

[@timolsthoorn10x10]

Have you ever transcripted this solo of Paul Desmond, I think it's crazy 'Dave Brubeck Trio spec. Guest Paul Desmond & Gerry Mulligan all the things you are'

[@myyoutubeprofile-c3u]

I would not worry too much about it. It's becoming more and more clear AI will not be taking the lead on anything anytime soon, and is best suited in the application you have used it for in this video.

[@1GueroBass1]

Ai to split stems is fine, it’s generative ai that’s a problem

[@christophbrylka6256]

A.I. stems splitting is a great tool for educational purposes but also for creativity. I would not at all consider it to violate privacy of the original musicians.

[@jordancadwell6549]

So, you have a Jazz video for me? Yes sir, I do! (this joke is funny because you look exactly like ryan george aka the guy from Pitch Meeting)

[@edwinleonard]

Just let people experiment and feel free. The only thing AI can replace is elevator music. 😂

[@PiotrBarcz]

Precisely

[@sthulander1]

Hey, Mr. #11 - A question : One time I was reading an interview with Diana Krall who had just released her collaborative album with David Foster, the producer. David wanted Diana to only focus on singing; and not playing piano, as David was playing the keyboard parts to her album. Not sure which tune they were working on, but, Diana suggests to David that at one particular point in the music's chart, David should use a #11 chord. I've been wondering what a #11 chord is, and how it functions. Can you solve this little mystery for me, #11 guy? Thank you for your time. Re: The Desmond solo and your use of educational electronics : Go for it !!

[@bobpremecz5429]

AI in jazz education is the ultimate tool, helping humans learn and grow by doing the heavy lifting on the technical side. It can isolate solos, dissect each stem of a recording, and highlight nuances in harmony or rhythm faster than most humans. By making it easier to focus on specific elements, it turns legendary performances into accessible, interactive lessons. But here’s the thing: AI is just a tool-it’s the humans who make the magic happen. The goal isn’t to replace the soul of jazz with algorithms but to use the tech to deepen our understanding, refine our skills, and ultimately become better, more expressive musicians. It’s not about perfection; it’s about growth.

[@SharpElevenMusic]

Amen

[@lyntedrockley7295]

I'd love to learn how to do it. Do you know? Make a video on how.