The serious weakness in many small modern metal lathes

My thoughts on the current crop of hobby lathes.
Cameras: Nikon L820 and Lumix FZ-300

[@Xynudu]

I seriously doubt that the large percentage of lathe owners with these "T" slots will actually ever use them. I also fail to see how taking out that much metal in such a critical area can be a good thing for rigidity. It all looks like a marketing exercise to me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this. Just be sure to respect views that may not fit with yours. Cheers Rob

[@RetroSteamTech]

Fascinating Rob, I never thought about that. I guess my little Warco WM 180 gets a bonus mark then, solid cross slide and top slide, no T-slots. Thanks for posting this, it will be the first thing I look for when I see a lathe in future 👍🙂

[@notsonominal]

Thanks for sharing; would never have thought of it myself!

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

That is something I had not seen as I don't often see new lathes. Good info for sure. Keep their feet to the fire Rob.

[@eyuptony]

Hi Rob. Also when you tighten the gib up on the cross slide the dovetails will flex outwards reducing their fit and holding effectiveness and induce premature wear.

[@kenhutchens513]

My 7x10in mini lathe has a solid compound and cross slide however my tool post mount is a single threaded rod in the "center" of the compound. The machine became surprisingly ridged after I bought full metal change gear set up (Head Stock Gears too) and went from straight ball bearings in the Head Stock to tapered roller bearings. The amount of material removal rate on steel (mild) went from about .015 thou per side to almost .030 thou per side with spectacular finishes. Aluminium I can take almost .050 thou per side but typically don't. Don't want to kill the poor thing. I learned of these small upgrades from a few guys here on youtube that do the hobby machining. Anyways thank you for the content and thank you for also being a great teacher of various skills from fab to machining. This Yank certainly appreciates it.

[@willi-fg2dh]

that's the calmest, most rational rant i've ever heard. never owned any machine tools, or worked them for that matter . . . but i have an engineer's/mechanic's mind . . . and if i was going to buy a lathe and saw tha, i'd run for the exits.

[@scroungasworkshop4663]

Good video Rob and it’s your channel so you can rant if you want to. I have a mid eighties Hafco which is similar in spec to yours except that it’s belt drive so it’s a bit more cumbersome changing speeds and noisy but another thing I like is the availability of part. Last year the original motor literally went up in smoke and I couldn’t find one with the correct mount and long shaft on Feebay so I rang Hare & Forbes and they said the original 1hp motor was no longer available but they had a bolt on replacement that was 2 hp sitting on the shelf. Bonus. Less than $500 including postage and a couple of days later she’s up and running again. Like you I have seen the gradual change over the years in the new lathes and the cost cutting but as the Yuan gets stronger and the cost of labour as well as everything else goes up they have to reduce their costs to stay competitive. Cheers mate, Stuart 🇦🇺

[@wolfitirol8347]

You are absolutely right and that was the reason why i bought the Schreiner D290V ( in USA Precision Mathews sells the same model under 1127 LB ) after my minilathe .It is a Chinese import with 1000mm bed and 265kg without the standing and there it also has the to long T-slots but they are not above the dovetail they are more beside where the "meat" is .First I wanted to buy a little smaller lathe but they all had the T-slots above the dovetails and that's why I bought the smallest with the slots more beside the dovetails .They used a bigger block of metal to keep the dovetails and slots about 10mm away from each other. I like the slots because you can position the compound at the best place for the job but I had to remake the clamping system with 2 screws into one with 6 screws and now the forces are better divided over the cross slide and the rigidity also improved.Not a big job for that size of lathe and a mill to remake the compound clamp. clamping.

[@ianbertenshaw4350]

Hi Rob, My Hare and Forbes AL50G had those longitudinal slots and you are correct the slots weaken the cross slide considerably and i could see the casting deflect even with moderate cuts . The AL320 i have now has no slots but the stingy bastards thinned the rear of the cross slide down by about 3/4 of an inch ! I have an old myford cross slide here that i am going to fit to the cut down section so i have a few T slots if i need them , only takes a minute to screw in 4 cap screws to fit it . Another thing that annoys me is that they seem to have shortened up the saddle width and cross slide width . Thanks for the video mate !

[@iancraig1951]

You make a good point Rob..I have a soft spot for T slots on the cross slide for the occasional line boring job but not at the expense of rigidity..It would be handy to have some T slots that could be bolted to and then removed from the cross slide for the occasional job and maybe thats what I will do..regardsE

[@pierresgarage2687]

To make the top slide more rigid on the Sherline, you could install a 1/4" or so plate in order to bridge over the T slots for the unused portions of top of the slide, make some spaces for the tool post in order to keep the height standard, you may need more than one plate if you plan to use all the slots. To be tried if you get spare time to experiment.... 😎👍

[@Mark6E]

No problem with the T slots here only a pain to clean the chips out! A much bigger issue was the spindle having no spacer so I put a cast iron tube to stop the bearings flapping around, also the shit motor replaced with a 1.5kw 6 pole 3ph and vfd, and big pulleys, then it is like a new machine. Thanks for the good videos.

[@digger1900]

Thanks for the video - helped make my decision

[@CraigsWorkshop]

You're right Rob - if you slot a cross slide long-ways, you make the whole thing into a hinge. I wouldn't want that metal missing from my cross slide either,. They didn't used to do this. My old 60s Aussie made lathe (11"x24" roughly) has the compound bolted on like yours, and I think two cross-ways T-slots at the far end in case you want to bolt on a rear mounted toolpost, a mill slide, or perhaps a ball turner. I haven't used them yet, but I'm pretty sure that because the slots are milled or planed 90 degrees to the dovetail ways, I'm losing a minimum in rigidity. I will have to get the TAIG out though and check it out too! You have me wondering now! Thanks, Craig

[@nikond90ful1]

Thanks for the video.

[@damianpianta3546]

Just saw your video, I think you hit nail on head and I can tell you why mine has a pair of Tee slots; they sell as a lathe/mill combo. I thought great idea when I bought mine first, then I realised I had 2 half useless machines. Once I purchased a proper compound slide for my mill head and seperated the two, they both do their jobs properly. However I do find too much flex in my lathe which can cause me problems. You definitely noticed the cross slide flex when you mounted a vice on it and tightened the mounting bolts, it could cause drag the cross slide!! I will now have to think how to change/strengthen or make a new cross slide

[@Xynudu]

Hi Damian, yes bolting anything down onto a cross slide will instantly show you how rigid it is. Even a solid cross slide like mine will still have very slight flex and you will feel increased drag as you move it. IMHO reducing the thickness of metal relative to the dovetail and the external dimension of the cross slide is a bad move. Depending on the positioning of the dovetails, metal thickness may be reduced vertically AND/OR horizontally. Once again the overall thickness of the cross slide has a bearing on this. Remaining/bridging metal thickness is very poor in some new lathes. Cheers Rob

[@bearup1612]

Damian Pianta Just a question what make of lathe. Was it an OPTIMUM I just bought one and the toolpost slide had casting defects.

[@Trapezius8oblique]

Thank you great help

[@ChrisB257]

Point taken re the strength factor. I used to wish my old Raglan had t-slots because I did a lot of milling in it years ago - however, got round that and since those days probably prefer not having them. My cross slide is built like a brick latrine considering the lathe size (11" capacity).

[@SafeTraveller]

Hi Rob. I agree with your comments on the T-slots etc based on stresses etc. However, since they were also longitudinal on my machine, I think I used them to my advantage I believe. Let me explain. Based on a video that you made a few years ago on points to look for in buying a new small lathe, I went out and bought an FI-610SM from Paramount Browns, and yes, the T-slots in the cross slide are indeed cut longitudinally. I didn’t think much of it at the time but a few months later I bought the same milling attachment that you also did a few videos on. Because the face of the milling slide was not perfectly perpendicular to the bed ways i.e. the axis of the lathe, I decided to make an adapter plate to fit between the mill attachment base and the cross slide. The mill slide was then held firmly in place by three bolts which go through the three slots in the milling attachment, through my adapter plate and into T-nuts which slide in those longitudinal T-slots. Doing it this way with an adapter plate between the cross slide and the base of the milling attachment has two advantages for me. Firstly, I didn’t have to take my cross slide off and drill and tap holes in it in order to attach the milling slide. Secondly, because the T-slots are longitudinal, it allows me to mount the milling attachment anywhere along the cross slide. This gives me a much wider flexibility in working area on the cross slide for certain jobs. At the same time, using the adapter plate, brings the working face of the mill accurately perpendicular to the lathe axis since the adaptor plate has a very small taper on it to compensate for the non-perpendicular face plate when mounted on the cross slide. This seems to work for me, I hope that all makes sense. Love your work!

[@Xynudu]

The Fl-610SM cross slide is actually quite meaty depth wise and that's why I gave it my best bang for buck rating, even though the cross slide is longitudinally slotted. However, there are some other lathes being sold where the thickness level remaining is pretty bad/marginal and this video is really about getting people to consider this aspect when choosing a lathe. Your lathe also has a good length cross slide so you can get away with a setup as you describe - top idea. I thought this subject would stir up some comments, but it's totally factual IMHO. Cheers Rob

[@colinwarner7762]

I think Rob, you should be renamed, The Aristotle of the lesser Oceania, the great thinker. you are so right. Colin UK.

[@TomMakeHere]

Good video Rob. Very good points on the slot direction I would have no problem with long slots if they made the slides extra thick to compensate, but it's China, they would make it all from sheet metal if they could find a way to make it work Old lathes are better built. I'd love to track down a nice slotted slide for my Hercus

[@Rustinox]

Good point. I never paid attention to that.

[@hansschmidt1961]

The slots running front-to-back on the current Sherline makes sense to me because it does not use a compound, and allows sliding of the tool post in order to maximize cross-slide travel for any particular set of circumstances. They also lengthened the cross slide.

[@Xynudu]

Hi Hans, I find the three cross ways slots cover all contingencies I've encountered. The longitudinal slotting commented on by the later model owner was not a positive move in his opinion. People can make up their own minds. I'm simply high lighting the overall situation. Cheers Rob

[@woutmoerman711]

I have a SIEG C2 which I love. It has a lot of limitations caused by its size but I can't house a bigger lathe. But the biggest limitation in rigidity is probably the small screws which push against the gibs. Look at the amount of "meat" at that point. Literally a point.... I added a few extra gib screws which really helps but most latches have this arrangement except for the real high end ones, such as Schaublin. But probably this arrangement is less of a problem if the slides are wider and heavier because the mass can reduce the need for utmost rigidity.

[@Cooliemasteroz]

I like the look of your old schaublin.

[@williamemerson1799]

I've been kicking around the idea of purchasing a small metal lathe for sometime now but lacking knowledge of machining, I don't feel the need for an expensive machine (think Bridgeport). Have any suggestions? Thanks, Bill

[@geoffhalstead1811]

My Warco 12x36 has T-slots crosswise and I added one at the rear for a rear toolpost.

[@samrodian919]

My Warco 300 hs tees running both ways as its a mill as well but there is still quite a bit of meat in the cross section.

[@jochika3645]

Saludos desde México muy interesantes y de gran ayuda sus vídeos gracias por compartir sus conocimientos. Greetings from Mexico very interesting and helpful videos thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@Xynudu]

Gracias por su comentario positivo. Cheers Rob

[@crookedriver2079]

Actually cross slide t-slots are pretty doggone helpful for line boring between centers. One of the most accurate ways to bore available. My Grizzly G0602 does not have any so I'm thinking about an array pattern of 1/4-20 threaded holes (4 threads deep- once you hit 3 threads you've already got 90% of strength - see Shigley's Mech. Eng. book) across the top surface of the cross slide so I can at least use 1/4-20 studs and toe clamps to fasten down workpiece to the cross slide surface - better than nothing.

[@chrismate2805]

I bought a small gearhead (All metal gears)lathe 160mm Chuck 330mm Swiing and discovered a weak link after it got less noisy over a few months. I replaced oil and adjust fanbelt from motor to input shaft pulley(Not spindle). After the fanbelt adjusted it ran noticebly noisy. It took me a while to remember the fanbelt. On investigation I found that the 3x bolted extrution-part to the headstock casing actually move a bit even tightened, its made of hardened steel. Now this part purpose is to isolate the belt tention on pulley from input shaft and it's two bearings in headstock housing. Now the pulley has a large bearing inside it which was rough and I replaced it(the blind hole battle thing to get it out). This made little difference. The input shaft runs trough this part, the pulley mounts on it and a keyway and nut tightens the lot, I found I cannot tighten this nut completely either, this cases some other noises. My temp selution is to bought a flexable belt with teeth, run it with much slack, it has enough grip still, and now lathe runs quiet. I discussed this with a local machinist of many years, and he suggest I bore 3 extra holes, then ream and fit 3x dowlpins to accurately locate this part and keep it located, he said, bolts do move. So I still has to do this. I dont know what the engineer was thinking, I did notified the manufacturer.

[@Xynudu]

That's a 13" swing lathe. Not exactly what I would call small. But regardless of that fact, it seems you have identified a problem. Rather than try and pin the component (it's hardened) maybe consider using a bit of Loctite on it. They make a range of adhesives/fillers for metal/mounting bearings etc. Cheers Rob

[@rpmunlimited397]

Clearly any slots weaken the cross slide but I believe the reason they are there is a consideration for the owner. If they are purchasing a hobby size lathe is is almost always a DIY type of consumer. With the slots installed it gives the owner a much broader use for the lathe. With a small investment in fixturing, bolts , spacers , barstock ect the lathe becomes a horizontal mill that can handle work sized for the lathe

[@DudleyToolwright]

A really interesting set of observations. I have only used a couple of lathes ever, so I had not noticed. Cheers.

[@houstonceng]

I live in the UK and I have a 13inch swing (6.5 inches centre height) Taiwanese lathe which has T slots at right angles to the cross slide. So it’s not automatically all”Far Eastern” lathes that have the sort of T slots you don’t like. I suspect it’s specified by retailers.

[@Xynudu]

Agree. The Taiwanese lathes were largely copies of European offerings and they did it the same way. Cheers Rob

[@Worrsaint]

The reason they put the slots that way is for gang tooling. I have seen it more on smaller slant bed cnc lathes that turn short, small parts. It is cheaper than a turret tool changer. It is also useful for more accurate hole drilling that using the tail stock. You set however many tools you want/can fit on it and just move the cross slide in and out to change from od tools to ID tools. Not saying this is the best way to do it on these small lathes, but my guess is they did it to copy that style.

[@navaho5430]

Yep your right my 9x20 Metal master has the long t slots first thing I did was a 4 bolt compound mod, 14 years later its still good with 1000s of hours use, I must have got a good one cheers

[@Xynudu]

Yes, that's a priority for sure. Makes a big difference.

[@navaho5430]

@@Xynudu Cheers from Moruya.

[@wxfield]

Excellent point. One of the 5 or 6 reasons I stopped looking at the asian machine tools in general.

[@RoyMeraki]

dont blame asia for china.. India makes very good metal lathe.. you can try importing

[@testyourdesign233]

Looks like a good shop project to improve a cheap Chinese lathe if your so inclined. Maybe you could build something for yours.

[@Xynudu]

My cross slide is solid, so flex is as low as it's ever going to be. However, that's not a bad idea and a great way to improve a cheap lathe. I have seen some videos where a workshop with a decent mill has made a new cross slide up quite easily for old and new lathes. Just swap over the hardware and you're good to go. Cheers Rob

[@geoffmorgan6059]

I agree. However, I think that the reason the tee slots run along the cross-slide is to accommodate the various taper attachments that are supplied with Asian lathes. Most of these lathes I have seen are composites made up from parts supplied by various sub-contractors. A lot of the components on my "Birmingham" 14 X 40 are interchangeable with other brands, Jet, Grizzly, Precision Matthews, and a lot of "brands" sold in other markets. Cheers.

[@CraigsWorkshop]

@Mr T I love my old ex-industrial lathe and mill. I had a brand new mill from China. I also had use (for an extended period at my place) of a friends as-new Sieg C6 lathe, and I don't for a second regret going for older but quality over newer machines. I would make the same decisions again tomorrow if needed. The scrapper doesn't come into it, and the clapped-out phrase may more quickly apply to the new stuff.

[@ab56452001]

Hi Rob and viewers . I bought a Chinese/Paramount 14" Lathe about a year ago , see if I enjoyed learning to do it , and after a while I thought that I need a larger more capable unit . Now after a year and buying all the accessories etc., ive just about got the hang of it , doing mostly small car stuff, my thoughts have changed , now I reckon a smaller Proxxton type lathe would be the go ! , what do you reckon ? , cheers from Salisbury S.A.

[@Xynudu]

Hi Allan, I presume you mean 14" swing lathe ? The 12" swing and larger lathes look impressive, but people forget the downside that goes with a large lathe. For example, larger than 6" chucks are VERY heavy, which makes swapping over a real chore and does not encourage collet use. Minimum gripping ability of large chucks is poor. The large spindle size makes collet accessories expensive and not as available as Morse 4 and below. Tactile feel goes to hell - very poor. They take up a lot of room. They can also do serious damage to you if things go pear shaped. So as you can see, I am not a fan of large lathes for home handyman use. They are made for a certain size work envelope, just like trucks and semi's. Sure you can drive one to the supermarket, but would you really want to ? That's why I get really pissed off when newbies ask for advice on what to buy, and the wanna be "experts" tell them to buy the biggest lathe they can afford. That is the worst advice possible. You CAN go too small as well. Most small lathes do NOT have a quick change gear box for the feed rate, which is a serious negative. So the short answer to your question is to buy the size lathe that fits your work envelope size and is adequate for the length, diameters and hardness you intend to turn. Cheers Rob

[@jossfitzsimons]

Counter rant:- If you put a milling slide on to those long T slots it is very useful to mill face on....or slide back on the T- slots and rotate the slide. Without this ability to move along the T slot, The milling range is severely limited. I also mount other things on these slots...An ER 16 milling cutter and a rear part of toolpost.

[@Xynudu]

Hi Joss, I would rather have a rigid cross slide and drill and tap a few holes - which I have done. I expected some owners will use the "T" slots for milling, but the majority won't do anything like that. Cheers Rob

[@danharold3087]

Exclent!

[@micmike]

Thanks for explaining, I agree with you. To bad someone won't make a better lathe for an affordable price...

[@Xynudu]

Hi. This can't be good for a lathe. It will also probably never be used. Cheers Rob

[@7duser10]

Hey Rob, don't the cutting forces when cutting push the cross slide down towards the ways, so this would not be a problem during normal use? Definately if you were milling or cutting with headstock in reverse. I have the fi-610 model up from yours and it has the t slots you describe but by the looks the cross slide is considerably thicker. I think this would be a bigger problem on the compound.

[@Xynudu]

The side nearest the chuck will press down, the opposite side away from the work will try to lift. The FL-610 is OK because it is a lot larger physically than the lathes I mentioned and the cross slide is much thicker. Where it becomes an issue is on smaller cross slides with reduced thickness/depth. Some being sold are very thin in that area after slotting. Cheers Rob

[@robertmatel8136]

I think the t-slots are a carryover from the asian 3 in 1 machines where the cross slide is also a mill table

[@Xynudu]

IMHO it's just marketing. Looks good, it's an additional "feature". Very few people actually use it or think about what it's doing strength wise. Cheers Rob

[@wolfitirol8347]

@@Xynudu you are right but the lathes where you can put the mill on the slotes have them besides the dovetails so they can carry the column with the mill head and its plus 65kg for example for my lathe. I was not a fan of these 3 in 1 lathes but after a friend bought one with the milling head I saw the big advantage to work at a part milling and turning without leaving the chuck and that improves precision a lot ....so for some people the 3 in 1 can be a very good solution if they need the accuracy.

[@stephenpaquet]

I just caught this video. I know you probably won’t see the response but you just save me from buying a 10 x 22 lathe with T-slot. I didn’t even notice it. Yeah, it has a MT2 tail stock as well. So after this, that’s a hard no I’ll keep looking.

[@Xynudu]

Good idea. Cheers Rob

[@keithmonarch447]

Hello Xanadu. About the weakness on the cross feed slides, with Tee Slots. Most slides are made from cast iron material. I might not be a engineer, but I have worked with a lot of machine tools. Tension from the Tee-Nuts, can effect, how the ways are adjusted. I just purchased a 10" x 20" Lathe, I wouldn't even have Tee-slots on my machine.

[@Xynudu]

Yes, that's dead right Keith. Cheers Rob

[@tano1747]

If it concerns you then bolt a strong back (just a bracing beam) across the tee slots in 2 or 3 places where it isn't in the way. Bingo. Stiffness restored. You just made a composite beam. Composite beams work fine as evidenced by all the riveted road bridges out there. Just because the lathe manufacturer carved sections out of solid by milling doesn't mean that other options aren't possible. Sometimes a little lateral thinking is called for...

[@davidlawrence8085]

Yeah a "strongback" a viable alternative , I normally have one on , It s held down by several tapped boltholes. I often have a a big grinder on my biggest lathe on the rear of the CS , also the strongback gives more length to the rear, that the grinder mount uses

[@RickRose]

Looks like you've identified an upgrade industry. Let's start supplying replacement cross-slides that are correctly slotted for the popular models. We'll make millions.

[@Xynudu]

Hi Rick, I've seen several videos of guys machining up new cross slides for old and new lathes. Looks pretty simple if you have a decent mill. They re-used many fittings and were good to go. I think you can buy modern blank castings for the oldies and just finish them off. Cheers Rob

[@RickRose]

@@Xynudu Drat. Foiled again.

[@Jeremy-iv9bc]

That compound is more of a problem than anything. I made a solid block to mount my tool holder to delete the compound and wow what a difference that made. I can actually take real cuts now.

[@Xynudu]

Compounds vary enormously regarding their rigidity. I have a large basic block type tool holder as well (same as Sherline use) but rarely use it as the standard compound works fine. Put a bar in the tool holder, put some pressure on it and take some readings for flex at various points. You will get a surprise where the flex is actually coming from.

[@ericmcintyre1710]

The Voest DA-xxx series lathes were made with a rear pad with T-slots for tooling. See the description here: www.lathes.co.uk/voest/

[@Xynudu]

Quite a few English lathes (including Myford) had rear "T" slots cross ways. It's nothing unusual, but not seen on Asian lathes. Quite a good feature and much better engineered than the longitudinal ones we see as a selling point on many new small lathes. Most people would never use them. Cheers Rob

[@clockguy2]

I think that the cross slides on Chineseium lathes are too narrow and tend to wobble on heavy cuts unless you rework the gibs.

[@Xynudu]

The cross slide on my Chinese lathe actually has a wider dovetail base than an equivalent Southbend. They all vary a lot. The topslide is the weak area on many Chinese slides. Reworking the gibs does wonders there. The later offerings seem to be slowly improving/enlarging that area. Cheers Rob

[@CraigsWorkshop]

@@Xynudu Your lathe is without doubt more rigid than a southbend or hercus 9" lathe. I had a Hercus 9A before my current lathe, had it leveled and supported correctly, and twist-free, and gibs all correctly adjusted, and I was unable to take lathe cuts or mill in the way that your lathe can currently do. I don't think the Southbend/Hercus lathe is a particularly serious lathe - it's great to learn on - particularly the flat-belt model, because you can only get into so much trouble before you get belt slip. But once you have an idea what you're doing, you can easily outgrow that design, and it's a good idea to find the most rigid, well supported lathe with solid wide dovetail cross-slide and top-slide ways (or eliminate the top slide for 80% of work, if you can't get it to work well), and a bed that isn't too worn. The great thing is - with a lathe, you can upgrade in rigidity and barely affect the workshop footprint. Because you can get small, but heavy and rigid lathes. Not really possible with a mill - mass is everything. And along with that mass comes extra footprint whether you need it or not!

[@swanvalleymachineshop]

You could be onto something there . Leblond used to do it years ago , but they would have had castings designed for it no doubt . I wouldn't have thought a small chinese lathe would have created enough distortion pressures to have an effect , but i do tend to agree with you . Cheers .

[@Xynudu]

Hi Max, try stalling a small Chinese lathe at say 400 rpm and watch the tool post flex/cutter tip drop. Scary. It's enough to snap the tip off that nice expensive indexable insert you've been using. There are serious pressures at play, believe me. It all ultimately goes down to the dovetails. Cheers Rob

[@airgunsfreedom700ssp3]

I think you have underestimated the strength of the remaining material. and over estimated the torque applied to it. For what these lathes were designed do, they are more than adequate. In one of my videos, I show an upgrade to the drive system on a Taig lathe. The upgrade allowed me to vastly surpass the original intended use of the tiny machine, however, I did not take into account the remaining parts of the lathe not being of sufficient strength to handle the extra torque. my point is, theres a limit to what these lathe can and should be used for.

[@Xynudu]

Cast iron will definitely flex. Put a bar in the tool holder, apply pressure and watch the dovetails spring. More metal can only be a good thing. Also stall your small lathe at say 400 rpm and watch the cutting tip drop. Scary. The problem is worse on some lathes being sold as the remaining metal thickness is pretty marginal IMHO. Cheers Rob

[@jeremylunning654]

As an experienced tool maker of 14 years, I would have to agree with the video but also the point stated above. These machines are not made to take large cuts or do high precision work like production machines are. The ones that are are priced substantially higher for a reason. There's nothing wrong with the t-slot design if you know the capabilities of the machine. You could drill and tap 4 to 6 holes and make a top plate with t-slots or bolt holes that bolts to the existing cross slide to strengthen it up and remove flex. I would personally recommend a small used clausing or leblond to anyone that has the space and power requirements availablejj, but most don't . You could always beef up a little guy the best you can if you want to push it to its limits and hold relatively tight tolerances. Rigidity and compact size just don't go hand in hand without a high price tag due to machining, material and design costs.

[@ianviljoen9036]

I've often wondered what those T slots were for on my Optimum TU2506...thank you for raising this. Looking at your Schaublin's compound slide at 7:47 the neck widths of the female dovetails are also very narrow. Would it not matter here because they're aligned in the x axis?

[@Getbent97]

Honestly most newer small lathes, even one like that paramount are more issues out of the box than they're worth. The whole t slot on the cross slide idea is stupid but I think its meant to make the lathe into a "universal" machine by allowing the use of a milling attachment. I think thats plainly ridiculous. In saying all that, I've got one slightly larger than that paramount lathe and the amount of time, money and effort I've spent to get it running right is ridiculous. Not to mention they have no cross slide power feed without the price going up 2 fold at the very least. To be completely honest if I had my time again, I'd probably get a well loved colchester student lathe as the footprint is basically the same, price is the same, quality is out of this world in comparison, even after 40 years of apprentices and schools abusing them.

[@lordchickenhawk]

Absolutely. I've got two old Aussie lathes (Advance & Nuttall) and an old Aussie student mill (Hercus) and they're so much more solid than my mates modern imports it's not even a contest. The examples I have are in good order, accurate and a pleasure to use.

[@RichardCranium321]

Isn't that "easily" addressed if you have a mill? Just machine a cross w/ parallel t's or make a solid w/ adjustable top

[@samrodian919]

Yes but why should you have to make a new cross slide if you have just bought a brand new lathe?

[@Cancun771]

You're right about ther comments, which is why it is a bleeding shame they are structured even poorer than webforums, which in turn are a lot worse from a pure technical/structure point of view, a real step back in usability, from some fial-up Mailbox systems in the 80s. Specifically X-point. In the early days, KZbin was a social network, remember how you could answer videos with your own videos and such? I never understood why they cut that away and can understand even less why they sabotage and curtail communication via the comments section by just making it so bad.

[@georgeclarke1183]

Hi rob i have purchased a hobbymat lathe md65 is German manufactured do you know anyone who has one and how good are they

[@Xynudu]

Hi George, I have never had a close look at one. It reminds me of a small Emco, but is a totally different lathe from the bit I know. LathesUK web site have the full story on these: www.lathes.co.uk/hobbymat/ Most people appear to like them. Cheers Rob

[@melgross]

Yeah, this is a pretty late comment, but it’s one that’s always bothered me about many small lathes. The gib on the compound is on the wrong side. It should be on the trailing side. Yes, the lathe can be worked towards the left, as we would think as normal, bearing against the spindle, but also worked towards the right, against the tailstock. Going towards the right is less than ideal on a small lathe and should be avoided except for some threading and other light pressure work, as with small chucks and collet systems, the cutting force tends to pull the work away from the spindle. So, with the gib being in the left side, the pressure is against the gib, which it shouldn’t be. One reason is that small (inexpensive) lathes use gibs with screws to bed the gib against the sliding dovetail. The problem with that design is that the gib isn’t touching the base on the side of the dovetail there. Unless the height of the gib is exactly such that it slides against the bottom of the base dovetail, and against the top of the sliding dovetail, it’s subject to lifting forces and downward forces from the tool pressure. The gib tends to twist in that slot, causing the sliding part to shift. Some compounds have four screws, but some, only three. As the top of the compound slides back, it tends to move past the first screw giving the gib a chance to also tilt sideways at an angle. Larger lathes tend to use the tapered gib design which always has 100% contact with both dovetails. This prevents the above problems from occurring. Very few of them have the gibs in the left side, also because of the above problem of riding on the gib.

[@joshwalker5605]

for what it’s worth, Taig lathes have t-slots perpendicular to the spindle too and they’re made in America.

[@CraigsWorkshop]

I have an older (20+ years) taig micro lathe (and a regular size lathe) - I will have to check it out. It's definitely a weak design to have the t-slots running perpendicular to the spindle, because it forms a hinge from the cross-slide. Unless you double up on the cross slide thickness and forego some of the swing-above-carriage dimension. Thanks, Craig

[@davidlawrence8085]

Also if there is even the smallest chance you might ever opt for a cnc upgrade on your lathe (not a big deal anymore, with the many turnkey packages offered) ,,,,you will thank heaven for tee slots running the long way bc gang tooling is then a cinch.

[@hackish1]

I most gang tooling I have looked at was a complete unit that gets bolted down rather than a series of independent holders. Also, keep in mind, cnc will do away with the cross slide, so the height to mount the gang tooling is necessary.

[@DDB168]

Excellent points. Hadn't given it much thought before, but should have. Thanks. As for why they do it, my guess is, so people can mill in their lathe - which I dont do!

[@seantap1415]

The compound is the weak link get rid of that first.

[@vikassm8879]

Most lathes I own are decades old European machines bought from scrapyards (Schaublin 102 & 102n, Weiler rdu280, Churchill Cub mk4). The only exception is a tiny little "Akebono Kikai" which is japanese, but was probably built for use on a warship considering how heavy it is for its size. In my opinion If you're going to do anything serious with the machines, it's best to buy used equipment and restore them to near new or better than factory condition. Lightweight hobby machines which don't have stellar accuracy to begin with, won't survive any degree of heavy use. They sure don't make 'em like they used to!

[@Xynudu]

Another 102 owner. Good to hear from you. I have an early open headstock 102 and I have the VERY earliest headstock for one (in mint condition) with no thrust bearing as they later fitted. That is damn damn old. Awesome machines. Plus they look incredible. Cheers Rob

[@vikassm8879]

@@Xynudu I bought my first schaublin 102 after watching your restoration videos a couple of years ago. Open headstock variety, made in 1964! Loved it so much, bought a more modern 102n a year ago (1990 model). Your videos are a great source of information and inspiration, keep 'em coming! :)

[@trevorjones2473]

I bought a new Warco 250 V recently and it does what it says on the tin. If people want higher quality robust machines they need to pay more, simples.

[@Xynudu]

You're missing the point Trevor. They could have actually reduced cost AND made it more rigid by simply not incorporating these mostly cosmetic (for most people) longitudinal slots. Cheers Rob

[@miguelcastaneda7236]

ahhh you forgot the main one many are cutting on a radius for every .001 thousandths you dial you get two of material taken off unless you angle compound.. to 45°

[@maxprophet2401]

Operator must math some to double production in a given time, I've heard.

[@JimmysTractor]

8:45 Not just your opinion, but a fact. Simply check weight and see how right you are.

[@markfoster6110]

My hercus 260 has t slots cross ways

[@Xynudu]

Yes, lots of old lathes did it the correct/that way.

[@gringoanon4550]

The problem is that they are like most things overengineered, too many electronics to go wrong, some designer thinking up some stupid thing . Variable speed BS all you want is five pulleys and just change the belt.

[@Xynudu]

Yes, you can't beat mechanical gearing. Cheers Rob

[@jamesmclaughlinprimitivele4587]

Build your own lathe. Make it how you want.

[@pargeterw]

You'll need a lathe to do that... :P

[@freshpootube]

No doubt KZbin has helped boost demand for home lathes, so the market has increased and any "design developments" you see from now on, will be geared towards reducing shipping weights and to make manufacturing cheaper. Same as hand-held power tools. Every year they find a way to reduce costs - and sell that to you as a "feature". The price point will stay about the same, whilst year-on-year they will reduce the quality and weight.

[@leerogers6423]

It is remarkable that we see this retrograde trend in so many tools. Blondihacks channel is currently working on an old German tool and cutter grinder, It's built like a Swiss watch made for a war zone. Newer clones of the same machine are no way up to the same standard. This Old Tony has just reviewed a $50 Chinese mini welder that is plain dangerous to the user. How often have any of us seen a tool at such a low price that we think what have I got to lose? Meanwhile manufacturers who make the proper job are going out of business.

[@lohikarhu734]

My German lathe, like your Schaublin, ain't got no t slots, anywhere...big bolts, that's all ;-). Cheers, Rob

[@Xynudu]

Hi Lohi, the Schaublin has them on the topslide. That's how the QCTP or lantern tool holder are mounted. The cross slide however is a massive piece of metal and does not incorporate T slots. I am reviewing a 7 x 12 Chinese lathe soon and it's pleasing to see such a technically good design with no belt drive and no T slots anywhere. It can be done. Unfortunately it has become a useless fashion statement on the mid sized bench lathes and rigidity has gone to hell. Cheers Rob

[@hackish1]

@@Xynudu it would be nice if you could offer ongoing input to them on subtle items like this. I have found that the Asian manufacturers are often quite willing to listen. Especially when it means less work to drill and tap the raw castings rather than machine slots.

[@JohnSmith-gy4qj]

Rigidity is the key to good machining.

[@steveallen8987]

Chinese lathes are not the only ones with dodgy designs. My myford ML 7 has the topslide pivoting on a small stud and uses the first 2 crosswise t slots to secure. With the super 7 they machined out a large hole vertically through the slide, the top slide has a matching base that has a dovetail machined round the edge and 2 threaded holes 1 on each side of the cross slide have plugs with angled ends that fit the holes and grub screws apply pressure to clamp the top slide While it is probably a quicker way of adjusting the top slide angle the large hole and side screw holes massively reduce the strength. As the dovetails on both the carriages are the same I have recommended people to replace the mlsuper7 cross slide and top slide with one from a ML7 ML7 slide www.small-lathes.co.uk/Long-Cross-slide-[1467_3]/1151.htm Ml super 7 www.small-lathes.co.uk/Super-7-Cross-Slide-Assembly-[S7CSA_2]/www.small-lathes.co.uk/Super-7-Cross-Slide-Assembly-[S7CSA_2]/1075.htm

[@springwoodcottage4248]

steve allen The links didn't work for me. I was able to view your site by typing in the URL www.small-lathes.co.uk

[@jamesmclaughlinprimitivele4587]

Doing try to cut 100 thousands and you won't need to worry

[@albertmagician8613]

Just look at 10 inch lathe. Yeah I have a zillion friends with assorted lathes. You can learn from Blondihacks in taking a viewers perspective. For example start a video like this by pointing to what part of the lathe is called cross slide etc. e. g. at first i thought that you meant the slide at the top. and

[@hansschmidt1961]

All of the Asian lathes copied the Austrian Emco lathe designs, including the orientation of the t-slots on the cross-slides. So, ironically, it is actually a European design.

[@Xynudu]

The original/early ones did in smaller sizes.

[@hansschmidt1961]

@@Xynudu The reason that Emco used the slots running front to back on the cross-slide is because they often had a milling head mounted behind the lathe. A milling table was mounted on top of the cross-slide. In order for the milling table slots to be oriented (correctly) along the lathe bed, the cross-slide slots needed to run front-to-back. Many of the Asian lathes have the same option, though I have noticed that Grizzly has dropped all but one (12X36 lathe/mill combo)

[@keithfisk5641]

Just watched you mini rant about slotted cross slides. They are there to support hobbyists trying to use a lathe for milling operations so appear on most lathes aimed at the hobby market. It is not something that you should be crediting Asian lathe manufacturers for either. I would suggest they have simply copied the Austrian EMCO lathes. I agree that for the most part slotted cross slides are unnecessary apart from the added flexibility of mounting a rear tool post or perhaps some other small turret for tool holding. In my experience milling with a lathe is a poor option but I accept that it could be useful in hobby situations where workshop space and budget is limited.

[@franklettering]

If anything, this video explains exactly how the world of work is biased against the "real world" and towards the bloody office dictats . ......maintenance blokes suffer the "design elite" from architectural design to something as simple as changing light bulbs .

[@jamesmclaughlinprimitivele4587]

Don't think that a person really needs .0001 or even .001 accuracy to do most metal work.

[@APage-hn6cz]

.001 is necessary for a majority of job shops

[@BasementEngineer]

@@APage-hn6cz If you build stuff that requires precision ball bearings, .0001" accuracy is definitely needed for small ball bearings. For larger ones .0002" will suffice. Granted, this is tricky to achieve on most lathes with the first attempt, but with practice, sharp tools at centre height, .0004" should be doable. After that, careful use of polishing sticks will get you down to the required size. Mind you, the ability to measure to 10% accuracy is another skill that comes with practice, especially for boring holes to fit ball bearings.

[@canberradogfarts]

As a Manufacturing Engineer who has had conversations with both Schaublin and Hass, I confirmed my suspicions on this topic. The T-slides and dovetails are cut in the same machine, in the same setup (basically). On a mill bed setup, the cross slide is machined first the dovetail, flipped, then the t slide is cut. It is sheer laziness and poor(est) workmanship, poorest engineering. It's not value engineering. It is sheer laziness.

[@Xynudu]

Very interesting. Cheers Rob

[@canberradogfarts]

@@Xynudu get some coffee, a comfy chair, and empty your bladder first... I've been gestating a few things for a while. This is as good a place as any to post. I dont have permission to name my company or product line so, allowances were made... Ok, let me set the stage. 35 plus years in electronics, First 20 as a senior repair, testing, metrology, and micro-miniature fab and repair technician. Then finally graduating up to Radio Communications Network Engineer, then Manufacturing and Production Test Engineer, I've been around and seen/done a "few" things having to do with electronics. But before all that, I had a grandfather and a father who were both Machinists and EEs. Its a thing in my family. I'm disabled now with an HSM shop I'm putting together for my broken butt, but that's a different conversation. Point is, there has always been an intersection of DTIs and O'skrillexscopes in my families households. So, when I got hired on my last gig as a production line Test and Manufacturing (process),engineer, I was recruited for the history of seeing one industry through the lens of another. This company,.we'll call it Widgets for All (WFA) was VERY mature, but very specialized, read, small. The Executive Committee of WFA had come upon an opportunity to grow the business both in scope and scale. A lateral market.move was executed with the purchase of parallel niche company that was struggling. (Parallel niche: Let's say one company makes orange juice squeezes and the other makes dairy milking machines. Both different product lines, but, both follow on products made.w8th our products would end up in the same kitchen, just from different (parallel) value chains to the customer.) As8de.from the lateral expansion there was the concomitant serial/internal expansion of both product lines.This was in the form of Bringing Back to American Shores, or Re-Shoring as its called, ALL processes in a product line. Yeah, Gwon Duang province in PRC can make individual 7n8t cost lower with their govt subsidized labor force, (you work where We tell you and you get a bed in a dormatory and we get the US $ through the artifice of an off shore commercial title) problem is, the quality is always ever going to be so hideous as to preclude profit back in the states unless unit volume exceeded several hundred thousand 7nits per 8tem per annum. Our unique product count was over 400 items in the same building with the same 275 personnel. Change over time from one product to ANYTHING ELSE was only ever minutes. A minimum run was 5 items. Toyota was coming to US.for Kanban tweaking. Problem was that on our large run items, the previous generation of stateside production practices had hemmed WFA into outsourcing large product runs overseas. Vertical integration had not yet penetrated down to small medium enterprises because the industry innovators had treated these methods as "proprietary", thus precluding any home shore advantage by sharing this knowledge and keeping our jobs here. (Another long conversation about the evils of globalization where.labor has been commodified based upon VAST geopolitical disparities in end market value of labor.) It was now "cheaper to keep her" when the Board looked at the big picture of a total product value line labor force. IF: Production Line supply was vertically integrated Product testing occured in situ during predefined blocks in manufacture (that's my gig) Just In Time integration encompassed.the ENTIRITY of the value line Then: here was a helluva opportunity to be made. So, where does Schaublin and Haas fit in? You all might wanna ask NYC CNC, et. al. how.many test FIXTURES they have made for electronics production lines. Now think this…. WFA had over 400 TESTABLE products, each needing at least three fixtures. Product updates and revisions occurring in real time, each necessitating change in fixturing. Several THOUSAND fixtures up front with a hundred or so per annum. This program of Continuous Testing Upgradability, if out sourced was going to.cost more than our annual revenue, just on this item alone, forget labor or material. How did we get to this point in the first place? There were over two dozen of.us on staff with varying degrees of experience as machinists. We'd been talking for a while, telling Execs what could be done. So they had had an idea there was a way to expand. The automotive industry had done it Sony was.doing it, BUT NOT TELLING HOW. So, we set about doing it. In order to be enabled to produce text fixtures "just in time" it would have to be done in house. We would need a job shop in house. And with market research was showing we SHOULD expand our product line to over 1000 items in three to five years, we needed to change the way we saw things See how thiis math8is sort of snowballing ,exponentially? We few.ex-machinists knew where this would end up. With some new play toys, er. tools. There were two thoughts on deployment. Either have localized fixturing available at each production line, seven of those currently with a five year plan of doubling that. Or...create a new department, independent of any one product line. Both had merits, both had pitfalls. After six months of sales/product enginerds from all over the planet coming through our house, the final two machinery works were (wanna guess) Haas and Schaublin. During this happy time, we were getting one hell of an education. Everyone in the company was exposed.to as much or as little.of this process as they had stomach for. Everyone had access to anything, except new product development and intellectual property protection methods. The building is online 24x6, pay is above market. "Widgets For All" is a "Blue Water Shark" to this day. All of the value line is back in house. Because there are governments on this planet that enforce the policy of using the citizenry as a commodity for wealth extraction and transfer to a select few there will be areas of the human labor pool that will appear all to attractive for unscrupulous and, or uneducated entrepreneurs. WFA spent three years recruiting from the home team. I was lucky that I happened upon them. They weren't casting a wide net. They didnt want to attract attention. I was hired three days after submitting my resume/C.V. Now let's talk about how appealing the home labor force is. Not friggin very. The initial round of expansion was going to require 75ish new employees. We interviewed over 1500. I was in the initial round, I was also recruited for my management experience. I'm just going to say this, from a point of experience of 35.plus years at industry leading firms, immmigrants to America have work ethics far and above the past two generations of Americans. Immigrants expectations are/were far less. These aren't opinions, these are recorded data points. But we weren't hiring based on their desires, we were hiring based on their experience coupled with their desire to invest, invest in themselves, thereby investing in the long term value of their position at their career. We didnt just train you how to swing the newest hammer, we untrained you how to see every problem as a nail. So when I look up from my sixteen channel logic analyzer to have a very well educated opinion about Chinese lathes, or STEM recruiting and hiring, or technology industry geopolitics, its because there were several MILLION man hours of documented experience I had poured into my head continuously, and had ready access to, along with any one else in the company. If you want a real, excellent position at an industry leading company, you had better come softly, carrying half a dozen or more big sticks. If all you bring to the interview is a single diploma, a hat in your hand, with a big ol' flag waving chip on your shoulder, see ya, that's what the coming generation of robots are for. Cheers Mate P.S. Five weeks after we got.out first Haas machine, I was t-boned on the highway coming to work. This explains my typos in that I am penning this missive from the position of my permanent disability, in bed various parts of the day with wracking pain. But that's another conversation.

[@BasementEngineer]

I spent my professional life in the heavy engineering and manufacturing industry. When accuracy was required, everything was stress relieved after fabrication, followed by rough machining of all features. Then all features were finish machined, with the last feature the one with the closest tolerances.

[@johnjennings8085]

China doesn't care about where the slots go! Look at the plastic change gears. I built a Gingry lathe rather than buying a chineese problem. The money saved allowed me to use better materials. I am sure it will be at worst as good as the chineese lathe. I casted it from zamack.

[@Xynudu]

With China it's all about marketing. People think "oh look it's got T slots", but will never use them and don't think about the weakness. I expect it's a delete option for big wholesalers as they just add to the cost. Cheers Rob

[@celtic1522]

I have a problem with this sort of conversation when one only takes the view of comparing apples with grapes! The small hobby lathes you refer to are in reality a pest to use at any stage. I have never quite figured out their designed usefulness. As for being rigid, I think you need to get a new life appreciation somewhat. No cheap mini lathe has the mass required to be considered a rigid work platform period as I see it. I consider comment as to the makeup of their cross slide rather futile. Yes in theory there is an introduced weakness maybe by machining in T slots as is now the practice but considering the low horsepower used, and small mass of the machine, I doubt that it causes any real problems that aren't there inherently in the first place. To compare a mini lathe part to that of a larger lathe with many times the horsepower and mass is surely thwart. It means nothing! More important in mini lathe manufacture re job finish is to ensure the headstock bearings are of good quality. Most are not as a rule and this causes heaps of chatter problems but what would I know, I only service the damn things!

[@BasementEngineer]

Any bench lathe requires mounting on a rigid and stable base if any kind of accuracy is to be achieved. My lathe for over 30 years now is an EMCO MAIER V10P built in 1976 or so. As far as bench lathes go it is a pretty robust machine; however, not until I mounted it on a very rigid steel framed table, was it rigid enough to make use of its capabilities. If you are limited to a wooden bench, at the very least obtain a piece of 2" x 8" or 2" x 10" hollow structural section tube, close up the ends by welding or brazing on covers, and welding/brazing in through-plugs where the lathe is bolted to this box section. With threaded adjustable feet under the lathe, a very rigid assembly can be got. Level the table using a carpenter's spirit level, then level the lathe on top of the bench using a toolmaker's level. Going this way it is easy to check the lathe bed for twist or bending, which must be minimized for accurate work.

[@dougaldhendrick3497]

It's just plain dumb!