The Servants of Shadow: Balrogs, Werewolves, and Dragons | Of the Lords of Beleriand - Part 9 of 10

[@rorygillmore6555]

I love how this guy declares every completely necessary tangent that he goes on. 😂

[@wiktorLicht]

"Balrogs might be like ostriches" might be the most peculiar thing that appeared in my thoughts recently.

[@mondenkindqueen]

Honestly, the idea of a billowing cape like shadow is even cooler and more terrifying than actual wings.

[@YHVHohNo1]

my new favourite hobby, playing lotro while listening to rainbow dave's lore videos. Dave of many colours i'd say!

[@Daveyboy_RS3]

One of my favorite quotes from all the movies is "You have no power here, servant of Morgoth!" (Battle of the five armies)

[@P-C-Principle]

I appreciate the more detailed videos you make on this massive book. As someone who owns it but has struggled to get into the old English style. This playlist has been a real treat, thank you!

[@thatguy4311]

The beauty of reading to me is that the characters/locations can be pretty much whatever you want. It’s very rare that when a book is turned into a movie that anything actually looks anything like I pictured it. You’re picturing it in your head, not on a screen, if you want your balrog to have wings, then wings it shall have.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

I read it as the wings were created illusory devices of the Balrog, Durin's Bane, and created of smoke and fire, not actual wings.

[@windhelmguard5295]

i always assumed that the "wings of shadow" were a deliberate choice that balrogs made when choosing their appearance in order to better instil fear in their enemies. it's a common tactic in nature, structures that serve little purpose other than just making the animal looks bigger or scarier than it actually is. so a creature of such unimaginable evil choosing to bear wings of shadow, much like the hood of a cobra, kinda makes sense. i also thought it would make sense for these wings of shadow to be used to shield the balrog from the light of the sun, which is a weakness common among the forces of evil, maybe feeling the sun on his wings is still unpleasant, but just keeping it out of his eyes might be a big advantage. another use for the wings would have been as an extra set of appendages to strike with, sure you could make the argument of "why not just have a second pair of arms" but remember that rule of cool still applies here, they want to look scary, not silly.

[@BalrogsHaveWings]

As a Balrog myself, I can attest we do have wings. Should we choose...

[@icorrectly]

It sounded to me, based on this interpretation, that Balrogs could possibly manifest wings, and may not necessarily fly, but might be able to glide and launch themselves in certain circumstances, like in the old Gargoyles cartoon.

[@woodgatejack]

On the side of the Winged Balrog- Late in _The Fellowship of the Ring_ (book) the company spot a flying creature which Legolas shoots down. This, of course, was one of the winged steeds of the Nazgul, but at the time, the fellowship didn't know that. They even say that the creature reminds them of the balrog and speculate if it even may be Durin's bane. However, Frodo says that he didn't think so, as this new creature "seemed colder".

[@tolkienuntangled]

That's a very good point that I've thought about a lot since making this video!

[@woodgatejack]

@@tolkienuntangled Taking the Jackson Balrog as it's own thing, I would say it flies like a plane. Planes fly, but if you push one off a cliff, its going to drop like a stone.

[@woodgatejack]

@@tolkienuntangled Actually, more like a helicopter. I'd imagine the Balrog that it would need a bit of time to power up to able to fly (being a big heavy creature that is not otherwise designed for flight) Switch out the balrog in that scene with a helicopter and imagine the scene would play out similarly. The bridge goes out, the helicopter falls down the chasm. The pilot frantically tried to start the engines, but the rota blades are bashing on the sides. BTW, I'd like to reiterate that I'm talking about the _movie_ version of the balrog and answering those smug, reductive "CinemaSins" style criticisms, _not_ really arguing against your stance on wingless balrogs.

[@lopirobinson1991]

The orcs are like the bones of Morgoth’s movement. The Balrogs his muscles. The dragons his teeth and claws. And Tolkien never explicitly describes a Balrog flying. He’s very descriptive. I don’t know about all his notes but if they could fly I don’t think he would’ve made it so vague. At the end of the day, from what I’ve seen about him he just loves discussion and the imaginations of others. And flying was another word for running in his stories. “Fly you fools!” equals “Run you fools!” And there’s something much more creepy about an almost shapeless burning shadow. What’s not bad ass about that!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Great thoughts! To add to your metaphor about the orcs, balrogs, and dragons; perhaps Sauron is the hand of Morgoth?

[@davidcomtedeherstal]

@@tolkienuntangled Isn`t Sauron Morgoths creature?

[@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051]

Wings make they more badass tho, so i shall continue to imagine they with that.

[@hugo-pg5tv]

@@davidcomtedeherstal Sauron is a maiar so he is not created by morgoth

[@HH60gPaveHawk]

I do love the villains of Tolkien’s work! They’re so varied and imaginative. That said, I definitely think you’re on point with the whole balrog discussion. As much as it’d be cool, I doubt they had them. I’d go so far as to say I think it’d be okay if the movie balrog was still canonical, as it could be an almost literal metaphor that the balrog actually shrouds himself in smoke in a way that looks winged to enhance his terror, that seems like a very demon mimic thing to do

[@celestialspartan1176]

Well, it did terrify, scratch that, horrify me when I first saw the Balrog on screen. So, it definitely worked in terms of it’s terrifying presence.

[@kylecharles4333]

I have always considered balrogs to not have physical wings but instead the dark smoke coming from their backs giving the impression of wings.

[@astralfrost6626]

I think you're right about the Balrog and wings. When I read it I took them to be sort of a terrible, vaguely humanoid shadow being that had bodies made of shadow and flame. The thing about the wings was mostly a metaphor for what it would have looked like for the shadows to stretch out when the creature stood up. I envision them to be something like how Sauron was depicted in the Hobbit film actually. I don't actually have a problem with them looking like a winged demon, I think it's easier for people to understand than a weird vaguely humanoid fire / shadow monster.

[@lopirobinson1991]

And that description of Sauron as a vampire is nightmare fuel. I mean, blood dripping from his throat. That’s some subconscious, dream logic horror. I love it!

[@nikhtzatzi]

blood dripped because literally he was hold from the throat by a huge dog

[@williamwrye5632]

I see the wings as perhaps for gliding or even defense, but the term wing is used so much with them that I believe they did have some sort of appendages as such. Even if they just cast flame and shadow to appear as wings

[@snazzie-designz]

I'm blown away by the depth of your knowledge about Tolkein's complete works and how you are not only including the canon versions but also the extra unpublished notes to include the fullest information possible about each character, and to bring them all together so coherently. Truly this is a remarkable and brilliant body of videos you have created here which I am very appreciative of.

[@fej426]

About balrogs having wings, that its shadows streched out like wings, adding that to the visual is cool indeed

[@wesbeuning1733]

It is because of the speed they came to Melkors aid when he fought Ungoliant that I lean towards wings, of some kind, ...at least at one time. They cover a lot of distance quickly

[@m8rshall]

On the wing argument - I think it's more along the line of a cloak of shadow, I mean there both Miyar like the wizards - the wizards reveal themselves from the cloaks - I think it's a dark magic version of the revealing of their true nature

[@glennross85]

In regards to Balrog wings, I think the cartoon Gargoyles would be similar to Balrogs. The Gargoyles could glide on wind currents ,but couldent flap their way out of a hole in the ground. If they were caught offguard and unable to stabilise their wings in time, they could easily fall from a height and die.

[@jadonsmith3224]

My dude... This is perfect!

[@davidfletcher6703]

Jazza Brooks actually did a good interpretation of the Balrog in on of his videos, it looked like a large hulking humanoid shadow wreathed in flame and smoke

[@DrForrester87]

I had always assumed the image of wings was the effect of smoke and shadow as a way to make them seem more intimating to foes, not actual wings.

[@bedric3858]

I'd put forward the scream need not be only a physically heard sound, but a psychic cry as well. Angelic spirits who had pledged their devotion to Morgoth could have been capable of some sort of spiritual connexion with him. The Silm makes it quite clear the Balrogs were responding to Morgoth's call from Angband, so travel in some sort of spirit (shaped as, I don't know, fireballs) form seems the logical explanation.

[@evanseekins517]

Does say that you can still hear a distant remnant of his scream in that area. Probably a mix of what you said but it was loud as all fuck.

[@DirtySouthJR]

Loud yes, and literally the most horrid noise ever to be heard. So this description as a combo makes even more sense and is even more epic.

[@gholamdapantaloonsniffer8218]

This could be what the stranger arriving like a meteor is and he is actually durins bane in rings of power?

[@forgottenexploration]

@@gholamdapantaloonsniffer8218 I saw this just now and thought the exact same thing

[@gholamdapantaloonsniffer8218]

@@forgottenexploration I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that 😂😂

[@rborecki222]

Thank you for the video! Your passion for the subject really shows.

[@mlebrooks]

I really like your videos because you really put so much thought and care into them. We can tell you are passionate about these subjects.

[@MarcelinoSoliz]

I’m in the pro wings camp. It makes since

[@volrosku.6075]

In before the utter badassness that is balrogs riding on the backs of dragons.

[@jerryknuckles736]

I have no faith on Hollywood, but i wanna see a 1st age battle so badly. Not only the titan battle, but just the sheer number of shitty orcs and balrogs in the back. Fully armed and filthy;)

[@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051]

@@jerryknuckles736 First age orcs were probably badasses.

[@Arkenshield]

O lawd. Rainbow Dave, you dragged Orodreth so hard he ended up back in Cuiviénen.

[@barrycardiss4043]

I wish I had a memory recall like this..

[@raimat66]

Thank you for the clarification about the Balrog's wings. It was realy good and beside all that I've already heard, your reference to how Tolkien is writing in metaforic words makes it even clearer. And, to the last, thank you for the picture at 15:03. THATS the balrog in mind, and I've never before seen a picture of what a imagin from text written in Lord of the Rings: "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." Yea, the movie-balrog is awesome. I love it. But that pictrure is my book-balrog.

[@matthewweng8483]

16:57 - Orodreth’s like ‘Fine, just go... I’ll just hang here and... no... It’s fine, really. ...whatever’

[@bendoukatarik6420]

Fantastic video shows, good sources of information, great analytics recits of the great writer mr j.r.r Tolkien. Thanks.

[@cweb9169]

Listens to your Balrog speech. "Huh. Neat. Anyways the balrog wings are fucking awesome!" 🤷‍♂️

[@theshadow6273]

Great watch/listen! I love your channel, especially how you show a lot of Tolkien inspired fan art!

[@Roofers-Nail-Hardest]

These videos have become my appeasement in the wake of the rings of power disaster. I just found them and it’s so cool how you have icon faces for specific elves and move them around on maps and you include lots of the best text. Fun channel.

[@TheBlackDahlea]

I have serious respect for you you dude 🙇🏼‍♀️ these videos are amazing 🤩 I can not stop watching them 🌈

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks!

[@williamgragilla7007]

Rainbow Dave I love your channel! As far as the wings go Tolkien understood every aspect of language. If he did not want us to understand that Balrog had wings he would never have used the word wings. Ever. I am firmly in the Balrog’s had wings camp.

[@unmitigateddisaster3793]

If there is one conversation in The legendarium I'd want to be a fly on the wall for it's the conversation Morgoth and Glaurung had after his little joyride. Though honestly it didn't really hurt him in the end, the elves didn't really DO anything with the knowledge that Morgoth now had a fire breathing monster. Part of it makes me wonder if this wasn't some element of his plan. Orcs aren't exactly good at keeping secrets, especially with a sword to their throat - so you could imagine word getting out that Morgoth was working on some new firebreathing superweapon. Maybe if the Noldor hear about this they might actually take some precautions, like going to the Dwarves and asking how much fire-resistant armor might cost them. But now after this little incident if they hear about a Dragon in Angband they say 'oh you mean that guy? Yeah he already came out and we kicked his ass, we'll be fine.' and they just brush it off and then get their asses demolished when he's full grown. This is exactly the kind of Stunt Sauron would pull, honestly.

[@blueldrrich84]

On the Balrog wing debate: I always thought they were non-flight wings, but rather used for gliding. Similar to, in many ways, gargoyles (think Goliath). This would give them an advantage fighting in mountains, provided no one cuts them...which is what Gandalf was doing on his back ;D Plus, they aren't useless, even if they can't fly--intimidation. You see this tactic with Morgoth and Sauron, they like to break the mind/will of their opponents before they begin battle. So to me, it makes perfect sense. Plus, the description in Fellowship is from a perspective of an onlooker. They have no idea what exactly a Balrog is lol. To them, it at first looked like shadows, then they realized they were wings. Makes perfect sense to me. =)

[@beastwarsFTW]

I see the Balrogs's wings as just fire from their backs like the Pokemon Typhlosion's quills. They don't let them fly but they do help in battle, seeing as how trolls have a weakness to enemies crawling on their backs I would guess those "wings" prevent this.

[@kylepatrickmurphy4058]

Dude, your videos are awesome!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks!

[@christophersheffield9574]

I hatechoo. How dare you shatter my worldview with logic!!

[@Sara3346]

I'm not convinced that wargs are not at least the lesser decendents of werewolves they seem intelligent in the hobbit.

[@MrEd1024]

Dave your talent, skill, and work show in all your Videos. Have a colorful day.

[@Mulletmanalive]

I really loved the description of the balrog, at least as I remembered it. “A corporeal shadow of fire and flame” and my teenage brain, quite before seeing the similar artwork imagined this figure off in the distance with a long shadow that ended in this burning giant. I think I missed the thing about wings so I was picturing some great fire giant or Smokey fire elemental. I was outright confused by the film’s portrayal and shouted down by my peers, much like how I missed the word Mumak but caught other things they didn’t.

[@caladen182]

I think balrogs and werewolves both bring up an interesting discussion. What does it mean to be spirit in the Legendarium? It seems that balrogs are spirits while werewolves have spirits in them? I'm guessing there's no specific metric for judging corporealness or ethereal attributes, which is just fine.

[@easty26]

So glad I stumbled across this channel. Great work.

[@noldo3837]

I have never expected hearing Durin's Bane being compared to an Ostrich or a Kiwi bird :D

[@Mina-hm2og]

Maybe the Maiar that were corrupted and became the Balrogs had in the beginning wings, but when they became evil they couldn't use them to fly. Remember that Morgoth and Sauron from a point onwards,after they have done unspeakable evil deeds ,lost some of their powers. It is like embracing evil made them less of the divine beings they used to be.

[@gedeonnunes5626]

Tolkien had a great taste for music. It's amazing to know he was such a great fan of King Gizzard he put not only one, but several balrogs in his books.

[@richieaerthen24]

Thank you for these videos, it is magical to relieve the Silm anew again. You make it feel new and exciting, in spite of the fact, that I have read it like 10 times already, ahhaha Funny how you stopped speaking Quenya after getting to the part where Elu Thingol banned it But also sad, cause Quenya :(((

[@SouthHill_]

So what you're saying is Glaurung was essentially like Morgoth's puppy trying to chase the postman off his property but was only able to nibble at the postman's shoes a bit.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Haha, basically that's exactly right! And I'm now imagining Fingon in a postman's uniform 😅

[@albussr1589]

This ... this is the most hilariously cursed image I´ve ever imagined

[@ShadowGricken]

On the other hand, the image of Balrog's being cloaked in shadows that they can change into shapes, including great wings, is also an incredible image. And that's what I would go with.

[@tomardans4258]

When the fellowship shot something down across the river, a hobbit asked, ‘was that a Balrog?’

[@tomardans4258]

And no one ridiculed him.

[@anthonya6044]

11:07 "Rainbow Dave" .. yeeess...that was what they used to call me .. I am Tolkein Untangled.. and I come back to you now at the turn of the tide ..

[@eouttacontrl7339]

Storm breaker is an axe and will always be an axe with an enhanced pole section now that's out the way I really enjoyed your narration of this video I especially liked that you just didn't read this off some fact sheet you put your own twist on it which made for a much more enjoyable video. Kudos my friend and if you need some backup in the fight against 🪓 or 🔨 I got your back. Awesome video and quite funny as well.

[@swagasaurus8568]

You have changed my mind from the whole balrog flying theory. Although i'm not 100% sold of how they made it from Angband to where Melkor before Ungoliath destroyed him by foot, but if that's true then the Fellowship must be track field athletes hahah

[@nathanlawrence2985]

The argument for the wings I just always pictured it as wings of shadow not a physical appendage, explaining why they never fly but still allowing for their appearance as having them as it does help with intimidation.

[@andrewverrett568]

Since balrogs chose their forms isn't it quite possible durans bane just chose to have wings? Like not all the balrogs but just him?

[@chrisjeffs9458]

Yes, I'd say it is possible, but not probable. Consider all the other Balrogs and their form. Their forms all seem to have some things in common. They have two legs and two arms. They have two horns, not six, three, or one. Their bodies are covered in darkness and flames, with the flames appearing to be coming from inside, and coming out through eyes and mouth. Did Melkor simply "Make" Balrogs in that form? Did he convince a spirit of the Maia to join his side, than then force transform them into the standard Balrog template? He might, he is a total control freak! Or is the form of a Balrog a pattern that works on a magical level, and that causes the pattern to form when a spirit of the maia dark side, chooses to take physical form? The pattern works, because it fits the needed metaphor and symbolism. Just like the pattern of an old man with long hair & beard, and a preference for robe, staff and pointy hat, works for a Manwe light-side spirit of the maia taking physical form.

[@shamrowicz]

Sir your videos are amazing

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thank you!

[@IGathron]

I agree with you Dave, it is my belief that Tolkien saw their wings as shrouds of darkness meant to inspire terror. And let's not forget the Balrog of Moria fell taking Gandalf with it. This is a good description of shadow and flame, to me they are akin to the titans of the Greek pantheon.

[@captainidiot4301]

Gods I love that you use "meloncholia" as the song for creepy bits. Love music boxes!

[@jeambeam3173]

Imagine how horrifying if the Balrog that killed Gandalf just levitates and the metaphorical wings of flame just spread across the walls although i like the wing look

[@weirdreportt]

14:32 whoever the artist of this artwork, I might say this probably accurately depicts how Tolkien would like the Balrogs would look like. The winged beastial demons that we've accustomed are cool, but this one has that very "ancient and evil power that no man could match" feel to it. It's "wings" were formed due to the shadow, darkness, and flames that surround the aura of Balrog, mortals who saw it perceive it as wings, as they could not comprehend its ancient nature. Plus it looks cooler than having just a demonic wings.

[@artpiratecollage]

Maybe wings of flame and shadow, like how someone would wear a cape

[@immortallegacy100]

I like to think of Balogs as fallen angels, so I interpret their "wings" as being the shadow of wings they once had. They are spirits after all, so them being able to take any shape would make sense. Wings are intimidating if the art work is any indication, so I like to think that Balrogs are simply trying to intimidate their foes, and it works lol.

[@toad6294]

Over the years I had become emotionally indoctrinated to Balrogs having wings. (The same way we've all become accustomed to imagining elves with pointed ears, even though there are no writings in Tolkien to support it).

[@concept5631]

Wait there isn't?

[@hugo-pg5tv]

Well that is usaly how a elf is painted

[@beersmurff]

Tolkien actually wrote that they had “leaf-shaped” ears. We know from looking at Earth trees that leaves have all kinds of different shapes, right? Since oak would have looked ridiculous, and he didn’t say “needle-shaped” (allowing us to infer that he meant deciduous trees - although if you want needle ears, check out what World of Warcraft elf ears look like), people generally assume that he meant something that tapered gently. (Only once did he write anything about the shape of Hobbit ears.

[@pumellhorne]

Also elf beards. They're always imagined without them but Tolkien doesn't say the men are clean shaven and at the Grey Havens we're told Cirdan strokes his beard while pondering the strangeness of the passengers aboard the ship. It's unlikely he was the only elf with a beard but in the end it's left to our imaginations

[@1Chumlee]

a thought about the "wings" of the Balrog - if the wings were made entirely of shadow with the intention to cause fear - it could be that they would not actually catch air and still have the effect described by Tolkien and not allow a Balrog to save itself from dying by a falling.

[@spellqueller7364]

I honestly think that it is plausible that those can be interpreted as real wings. Even though those wings couldn't fit in the halls of Moria, they could be activated and diactivated at will like the Balrog in the Shadow of War videogame ( yes, i know that it's non canon but it is a plausible explanation to the matter and just an example). As for the purpose, i would say that Balrog could manifest wings to intimidate opponents and frighten foes, not used as a mean to fly ( just like crests on a spartan's helmet had no practical use but were needed for intimidation).

[@t.nichole6496]

I grew up watching the movies long before I read any of the books, so when I picture a Balrog, I see Durin's Bane from the movies, wings and all!

[@rovanderby759]

Funny, lots of discussion about Balrogs having wings or not, but everyone seems to be convinced they were horned creatures. And yet, I can't find any passage in the Silmarillion or LOTR that says they had.

[@tolkienuntangled]

Very good point. I don't know of any reference to horns

[@maxrander0101]

i always saw the Balrogs wings as wings of Flame or something like an Aura this would mean both having them and not are true as they would mean they can not fly but could scare the crap out of the Free people by the added size of this Aura or burst of flame

[@error404idnotfound3]

I have always assumed that the wings of the balrog (if they have them), were more tools of intimidation and morale manipulation than anything else. The dread battle flags of Morgoth.

[@danieldeclue1466]

I don't know, I always felt that if balrogs had actual wings that none of them would have ever plummeted or been cast off of cliffs. Always felt that the story was simply saying they moved so fast it was as if they had wings. Flying with wings would be the quickest method of travel in Middle Earth anyhow so it makes sense that winged flight is what their speed would b compared to

[@Vondarkstar]

Balrogs have wings when they need them! How else did they rescue Melkor from Ungoliant just in time! They didn’t sprint that’s for sure!

[@MellowMutts270]

I commented earlier on the wrong video lol. Fantastic job, Rainbow Dave!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Thanks! To answer your question, I'll release a couple of lore videos on what the Fellowship got up to after Lord of the Rings, when this series finishes. And then I'll take a short break to make the next First Age series, which will be all about the tale of Beren and Luthien 🙂

[@jeromyframe1930]

Great video Dave. I never even thought to think of the werewolves as miar. I wonder is Tolkien intended to link the talking wargs of the hobbit as descendants of the werewolves of the first age? Love this series!

[@beersmurff]

Like the spiders of Mirkwood were offspring from Shelob who was an offspring from a evil being. Or like the dragons might be offspring of a maiar in dragonshape mating with lizards etc. Very likely the wargs were offspring of maia werewolves mating with wolves.

[@melkor2650]

I think your argument about Balrogs not having wings makes total sense, and I buy it 100%. Very good observations! And definitely a stretch with some of those metaphors to say they were actually wings. I think you're absolutely correct there. That said, I am going to choose to fly (not literally) in the face of all logic and evidence and continue to believe they had wings, on account of it looks really cool ;)

[@tolkienuntangled]

Honestly...me too

[@zombywoof1072]

@@tolkienuntangled Wing is word that has meanings other than the appendages of flying animals. The wings of the stage. The wings of an army. The wings of an automobile (British for fenders). The king's wing and the queen's wing of a chessboard. The wings of a hospital or of a library. The "wings" of the Balrog are not even *metaphorically* appendages of a flying animal. They are things on the Balrog's flanks. Areas of darkness on either side. He's making himself "look big," like Cat in Red Dwarf. He's a narcissistic bully who thinks he can intimidate Gandalf by looking big. Puffing himself.

[@zombywoof1072]

If fans have trouble with words like "fly!" as in run away, what do they make of words such as smite, smote, stride, roguish, furlong, fortnight, glede, silver penny, forelock, fetlock, pray (tell), hauberk, mantle, circlet, helm, rasher, dale, phial, fair (as in the opposite of foul), kindle. Do they think a "fell beast" is an animal that took a prat fall? When a character takes a "great draft" do they think it's a wonderful puff of cold air? What do they make of Frodo feeling his tongue cleave to the roof of his mouth?

[@jameswest981]

Fantastic art,and detailed accounts.im sure I'm spelling it wrong,but in Conan the barbarian2.They called the snake temple kasa Doom,they must've used the name from Tolkiens works.

[@RebelRolls77]

Smoke rose like wings around Gothmog. Maybe it's a cape like Doctor Strange's but, smoke and sh@dow based

[@theMightywooosh]

!!! Thanks for great videos

[@theunitedcommonwealth715]

I think The Balrogs do have Wings just not Wings for Flight Wings for intimidation for Fear and the spreading of that Fear and it is likely were The Creator of Dragon's got the idea from for given The Dragon's Wing's but because Dragons are more Biological Creatures then Supernatural like the Balrog Dragons Wing's were made for easier Travel Conquering Safety Fear and Intimidation not just Fear & Intimidation. Just my thought's. Respect and keep up the epic work.

[@cup_of_tea755]

I've always been really intrigued by the character of thuringwethil considering she is only mentioned once. Maybe it is just because I like bats. Anyway since she was Sauron's herald she probably was seriously powerful. She can change forms so she might be a maia. She is the only vampire and the only lady confirmed to actively serve evil. She might be an ancestor of the spooky evil bats that show up in the hobbit to kind of contrast the eagles. I have so many headcannons about her. Not the most auspicious favourite but I love any crumbs of theories about her.

[@32kirby32]

Yo you got BY FAR the best Tolkein videos ever posted online

[@wesbeuning1733]

How about: they're Maiar; they are already capable of manifesting wing-like shapes.

[@bspitler0]

Lol I don't understand how anyone can make the argument that SHAPE SHIFTING beings stronger than what our worlds angels, Greek gods, ECT. Couldn't manifest wings however the hell, whenever the hell they wanted, functional or not, deadly or not, or just for looks kinda like useless horns or all that extra fire and crap that often only serve to demoralize and terrorize their enemies. Whelp I got my 15 minutes of KZbin in, that's probably enough 😂

[@stephanwatson7902]

23:30 It said "was her wont to fly in a vampire's form" that suggests she is not a vampire, but it was her desire to fly in a vampire's form. Like hownSauron took the shape of a great werewolf, but he was not a werewolf. And if that's the case, there WOULD be other vampires

[@samvisschers]

Just 1 argument for why they would choose to have wings without flight. Maybe the shapes they could choose had limits so they couldn't fly regardless of form, but what about the intimidating effect? They seem to be much much larger with wings spread out. We see this in the animal kingdom as well. And them being demons, it would make sense

[@nurkoleptik_art]

Is it possible to have "good" orcs? Like a newborn orc raised by elves without prejudice and teaching them the way of the valar and Eru Illuvatar?

[@tolkienuntangled]

I don't really think so. Orcs aren't living in the same way that the Children of Iluvatar (and Dwarves) are. They are bred under the corruption of Morgoth, and I'm not sure they can ever transcend that. However, that being said, we do see something interesting in a conversation between the orcs of Cirith Ungol in Return of the King. It seems that many, if not most, orcs hate the Dark Lord, and yearn to be free of him. But these orcs go on to say that if they were 'free' of Sauron, they'd go back to raiding and killing on their own terms, which might imply that even without a Dark Lord, they can never do 'good'. At best they'd be like hateful animals.

[@nurkoleptik_art]

@@tolkienuntangled Ahhh, I see. Thank you :D

[@jdatkin8601]

I had never heard if the Boldogs before today. As someone who utterly adores orcs (they are the real victims of all of this) I will definitely be looking at Boldogs in greater details. Vis a vis Balrogs and their wings. I always thought of Balrogs as being a physical being draped in a shifting form. A dark spectre that could summon a blade to their hands, a horned helmet and armour to protect them and, yes, wings should they see the need. I find the idea of this shifting of shapes to be very inkeeping with their angelic origins. That said, it is not something they do lightly and when injured? Yeah, I can see them struggling to conjure wings to keep them from a fall. This is supported by nothing but the images I hold in my head. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject along with many others.

[@christopherbaby3842]

I thought that maybe they have mastery of shape or something so they can make themselves appear terrifying even giving one the impression that they have wings that are taking up a great space.

[@Meggimagine]

"And the mightiest of the Balrogs is Gothmog" *Cue to an add with a pomeranian puppy* 😂😂😂😂

[@Avoretti]

and there is also the deadly Tiberth Bridhon Miaugion also known as Tevildo the forerunner of Sauron. Also, I love this video! The informations are amazing and I was happy to hear from Boldog (which is funny because in hungarian boldog means happy and it's hilarious to imagine a "happy" orc in the forces of Melkor )

[@charlesmartinez5869]

12:30 The Valar are shapeshifters. Balrogs likely come in many shapes, with vestigial wings on some. Similarly, mapping them to depictions of fallen angels, who's wings were metaphorically damaged as they literally fell from heaven also makes sense.

[@JezzieBell666]

Just picturing Morgoth dragging Glaurung by a leash for his walk of shame back home

[@realmless4193]

If Gothmog was Lord of the Balrogs, and he died in the fall of Gondolin, and Lungorthin was Lord of the Balrogs, maybe Lungorthin was Gothmog's successor.

[@realmless4193]

So the lord's of the Balrogs would be Gothmog, from the corruption of the Balrogs to the fall of Gondolin, and then Lungorthin from the fall of Gondolin to the War of Wrath, and the During:s Bane is the last survivor.

[@jamth118]

Wings don’t necessarily mean flight wings can be used as a shield like a clock of steel, also demons are depicted with wings and if they made in the image of terror wings aren’t far fetched

[@supershenron9162]

I've always assumed even if the Balrog had wings they where incapable of flight

[@tada-kun982]

Maybe the balrogs just found them stylish and made them purely cosmetic 😂

[@StormEnder]

@@tada-kun982 Some dinosaurs had wings/extending fans that were purely there for the purpose of intimidation. I feel that's something the Balrogs would be into

[@garrick3727]

Balrog wings: "Wings would look really badass." "If Balrogs were Maiar who could choose their own shape, why would they choose wings if they could not fly?" Well, I think you may have answered your own question. Seriously though, it doesn't seem that Maiar could fly. It's unclear what the rules are about taking a form, but given the advantage that flight would bring, it seems unrealistic that neither good nor evil Maiar ever took wings if that was an option. I don't think Balrogs could fly because it seems like nothing (sentient) in the First Age could fly. A lot of the plot of the Silmarillion only works if no-one can fly. Gondolin, the hidden city, would not be that hidden if dragons and balrogs could fly over the mountains, and a lot of the defenses of elves and men would be useless if the enemy could flay over them. Smaug certainly had wings, but it seems like flying dragons were a later creation. Since all balrogs were from the First Age, even Durin's Bane, that suggests no flying. Long ago, for an art project, I decided to draw a balrog. I went through all the source material and concluded that a balrog was essentially a living shadow. If you've ever seen the shadows cast by an open fire, the balrog is essentially those shadows come to life. It probably is essentially man-shaped, maybe a bit larger in the same way that early men are occasionally described as being larger by Tolkien. The thing cast shadows though, subduing light, so that in dark places it will look larger because there is more shadow. It is possible that the balrog has control over the shadow, so it can make the shadows wing-like (to be more badass), or it might be that the shadows just grow in larger rooms, so as it comes through a doorway into a large room the shadows spread across the wall behind it "like wings". Remember that Tolkien is from a time where hand-held electric lights were not common until he was older. If you've ever walked around with a flaming torch or an oil lamp at night, or sat at a camp fire in a forest, you can see the sort of shadows that would inspire the balrog. The actual body of the balrog could be shadow, but it seems to me to be more inspired by the fire hearth, so maybe black ash with fire on the inside - dark but very hot. Perhaps, as it moves, you occasionally see fire through fine cracks in its body, or maybe the eyes and mouth are just holes that are windows to the fire within. I would also note that Sauron is an evil Maiar, and when he loses his ability to take on a fair form, the way he is described bears more than a passing resemblance to a balrog, in the sense of a person of shadow. That also implies that evil Maiar did not choose that appearance, it's just what you get for being an evil Maiar. Since Sauron is practically the only evil Maiar that is not a balrog that we ever see, it might just mean that he could hold his fair form (perhaps due to his sorcery), but when he loses it in the Downfall he just ends up looking like all the other evil Maiar. He is singled out by Tolkien as the Deceiver after all, perhaps in part because he's the only evil Maiar with a fair form. Balrogs might just be the fighty fighty evil Maiar, and the evil Maiar that are not balrogs may look more or less the same. In other words, in RPG terminology, Balrog is the class not the race.

[@lonnieeastin6401]

You can have wings and not fly. Maybe they just had them to look badass? That's a good look, "wings spreading from wall to wall". I'd have wings to look bigger. Even if I couldn't fly. In my mind, balrogs have wings, and clearly can't fly. Why would they die from falling so many times? You're not only super tall, "wreathed in flame", but you're also... super wide. What hobbit, human, dwarf, elf, orc wouldn't run from that?

[@radnelac]

Thank you! The war of the wings should have ended long ago.