The Shakespeare Enigma

Extracts from a television documentary about the Shakespeare authorship controversy which has been sold around the world.

[@heliotropezzz333]

The first folio of Shakespeare's plays was published, after Shakespeare's death, by John Heminges and Henry Condell who were actors in "The King's Men" company. A company for which Shakespeare wrote. Heminges was also a financial manager for the company. They obviously had no doubt that Shakespeare was the author of the plays. The published folio included a picture of Willam Shakespeare as the author.

[@steveormeproductions]

The Shakespeare Enigma is not available for the public to buy at the moment. I'm hoping to offer it as a download very shortly. Please watch this space. Thanks.

[@heliotropezzz333]

Glad to hear it. I did in fact give you examples - a whole list of Shakespeare's contemporaries who left evidence that they accepted he was the author. There is no contemporary of Shakespeare who said he was not the author.

[@librarylu]

"Are there records for any schoolchildren then?" Nope. So you can't say we "know" William of Stratford attended the school. Shakspere's father couldn't write, nor could his daughters. There was no mention of any manuscripts in his will, nor any books. There are references to some two hundred books in the plays. Many were never translated into English. De Vere was fluent in several languages and well traveled. Shakspere never left England as far as we know. Aubrey wrote in the 17th century.

[@librarylu]

The names on the will are not on the original. They were interlined and it's not know when, why or by whom. The monument at Trinity Church was remodelled several times (documented), portraits have been forged (documented) - it wouldn't surprise me if some over-zealous Statfordian put them in. Fluellen was modelled on a Welsh hero, a "follower of my Lord of Oxford's" (documented). Sir Roger Williams served under Henry of Navarre & was born in Monmouthshire as was "Captain Fluellen".

[@heliotropezzz333]

Librarylu Q.Why does "Shakespeare" say that "The old Bees die, the young possess their hive."? Shakspere should have known that there are no generations of bees..." "Shakespere the countryman should have known that the weasel does not plunder eagle's eyries... A. I don't know perhaps that was De Vere's contribution.

[@librarylu]

"Also, that whenever he killed a calf he made a high-flown speech over it. This supposition rests upon the testimony of a man who wasn't there at the time; a man who got it from a man who could have been there, but did not say whether he was or not; and neither of them thought to mention it for decades, and decades, and decades, and two more decades after Shakespeare's death (until old age and mental decay had refreshed and vivified their memories). " - Mark Twain

[@xander7ful]

I, for one, still believe that he wrote his own plays and acted in them. For the life of me, I can't figure out why a movement would emerge now to debunk him. Isn't it possible that this itinerant playwright also had access to the royals and royal courtiers? Why the need to find other authors? Unless this is just a group of academics wanting to create a cottage industry to make money.

[@librarylu]

Actually, Elizabeth is a good fit (except for the hair). She was thought a bastard ("a bastard's shame") even though Henry legitimatized her. English law forbade a bastard from sitting on the throne. If rumors about them were true she may have been de Vere's mistress in more ways than one circa 1574-75. (Don't worry, I'm not in the Prince Tudor camp yet.) Elizabeth was skilled on the virginals and the jacks could refer to Essex' execution. "When jacks go up heads come down"(De Vere to Raleigh).

[@librarylu]

The mention of actors was an interlineation. It was not in the original will. It's not known when it was added to the copy of the page or by whom. Jonson apparently wrote the prose piece in the 1st Folio, not the actors.

[@heliotropezzz333]

I read something about the £60 pounds. It was not the price, but I can't recall the details now. You can find by googling.The price is not recorded. Shakespeare bought land and a cottage from people called Combes in the Stratford on Avon area. He was also a shareholder in the Globe and bought a gatehouse in Blackfriars in London. He bought houses for family members also.

[@librarylu]

"Hamlet was modeled after noone but the author himself..." I agree with this. Oxford's father died when Oxford was 12. His mother remarried far below her station. The Queen took some of his lands and gave them to Leicester and sued him as well. Polonius is Burghley, Laertes Robert , Ophelia Anne Cecil, The king and queen Dudley and Elizabeth and/or his stepfather and mother. Hamlet is de Vere asking his cousin to tell his tale. The "Ur-Hamlet" was probably an earlier version by the same hand.

[@librarylu]

I didn't know Bacon and de Vere were related. I've read Jonson admitted he wrote the prose piece from the actors as well but I can't find a source. Do you know anything about that?

[@heliotropezzz333]

William Shakespeare collaborated with Thomas Middleton on a play about Sir Thomas Moore. An original manuscript still exists, said to include parts in William Shakespeare's handwriting.

[@persiancurly04]

what is the name of the documentary? I am trying to find but have had no luck yet. Thanks.

[@librarylu]

De Vere was called "spear-shaker" by Gabriel Harvey for his skill in the tournaments. The family crest has a lion shaking a spear and there's the aforementioned connection to Pallas Athena. An earlier nom de plume may have been "Phaeton" "Will" or "Willy" meant "shepard" and "William" was Lord Cecil' first name. As I'm sure you know, Cecil, Lord Bughley, was de Vere's guardian and, later, father-in-law.

[@librarylu]

My research turns up the following: "1608: The King's Men lease the Blackfriars Theatre. The Blackfriars was the first permanent enclosed theater in London. Shakespeare, Richard Burbage, Cuthbert Burbage, Thomas Evans, John Hemminges, Henry Condell, and William Sly lease the theatre for a period of twenty-one years." From August 1608 to June 1609 Shaksper was back home in Stratford-upon-Avon, involved in a protracted lawsuit. Just where is there a link to Queen Anne's Men?

[@AnyoneCanSee]

I worked on a major documentary about this subject and we interviewed the leading academics on this topic and then some other like Mark Rylance. In ever instance those supporting Shakespeare were the world renowned academics and those not were just actors like Rylance. I think that says it all.

[@librarylu]

Regarding the schoolboy, Helio, this is part of Jaques' "All the world's a stage " speech. He's describing the seven ages of man. The mural is on the floor of a Cathedral in Siena. Jacques is a traveler who sold his lands to see other men's Edward de Vere wrote Lord Burghley on January 3, 1576 from Siena demanding he sell lands so he can continue his travels. This was 3 nights before Twefth Night when the play, The Deceived (considered a source text), was traditionally performed in Siena.

[@heliotropezzz333]

His father would not have needed to hire personal tutors. As his father was a local Alderman, William would have been entitled to a free education and the Grammar School in Stratford. There was one at the time. The building it still there. One of William Shakespeare's plays included a scene with a cheeky schoolboy called William and a Welsh teacher. There was a Welsh teacher at the Grammar school in Stratford at the time William would have attended - John Parry was his name if I recall correctly

[@heliotropezzz333]

John Hudson also said her signatures are found on 11 of the plays but unfortunately the clip ends there, so we don't hear more about that.

[@librarylu]

One could read the book. I've seen the clip. Since there are no original manuscripts how do we know her signature appear on 11 of them? De Vere spent sixteen months in Italy, he was an accomplished musician and a recognized poet, he was buying books, some in Greek and Latin, while still in his teens, his uncle invented Iambic Pentameter and his mistress, Anne Vavasour was dark ("black wires" grew on her head). He was one of Elizabeth's favorites. He had a lease on Blackfriars and acted.

[@steveormeproductions]

Thanks for your comment. The aim of my documentary was not to compare the authors and their writing styles but to give voice to the different groups who are passionate about who they think actually wrote the plays which bear Shakespeare's name.

[@majorhoop]

as i understand it collaboration with (or at least contributions from) other playwrights was common at the time.....are there any manuscripts or correspondence in his hand? is there a similar lack of material of this type for other playwrights of this era?

[@librarylu]

"You misunderstand me. " I was being lightweight. De Vere had two secretaries who were playwrights themselves. I'm not opposed to the idea there was collaboration; that was apparently common at the time. Jonson was reported to be a friend of Marlowe and de Vere as well, so if he was using the pen name rather than the author's real name (we don't refer to George Eliot by her real name) he can be used to support those cases as well. The line about Caesar isn't in Shakespeare.

[@librarylu]

"Threatening does not necessarily mean physical violence." The document specifically stated "fear of death" - ob mentum mortis.

[@librarylu]

According to Wikipedia: "He says that he (Florio)lived some years with the [sic] Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton, possibly the young man in Shakespeare's Sonnets and there is an account of an incident involving Florio at Titchfield Abbey, the Earl's Hampshire home. William Herbert, 3rd Earl of Pembroke, also befriended him." Dang, there's that Pembroke again, but friendship with Shaksper is only "possible". The Bruno connection is interesting, but in Hamlet it's Ptolemaic astronomy.

[@AnyoneCanSee]

Hi Steve. good to see you on the web. My documentery will be out at the end of the year. Does Nottingham miss its festival.? Robert J.

[@DownwardSlideBlues]

My understanding is that most theories on most authors, poets and playwrights of this time suffered from the same dubious level of documentation to supply details concerning their lives. What we DO know is that there are SEVERAL Marlovian and Chaucerian references in Shakespeare's works. The problem is that any theories developed rely heavily on conjecture. Art in general is usually a combination of original thought and outright pilfering, along with the occasional homage to an original work.

[@librarylu]

Small point: If the actors only saw small copied segments, how would they know the originals were unblotted? I've read Detobel has shown the notion was grounded in the courtier's ethic that poems (to be circulated among friends, not given to the public) were dashed off without effort because it would have been unseemly to the position to labor over them. I haven't found the source for this in Detobel yet.

[@librarylu]

"The theatre district was not on the Avon." There were two Statfords, Stratford-upon-Avon and Stratford, now part of the city of London. I was referring to the latter. In answer to your question - money? It's known de Vere was a poet and playwright, that he acted and owned two acting companies and a lease on Blackfriar's. In the small world of theatrical circles might their paths have crossed? Why widespread? Peacham apparently knew.

[@cherryrosie]

I have found an engraved portrait of Shakespear in the back of an old book....there does not appear to be any record of this engraving on the internet although the engraving is identical to the 'chandos' portrait.....this page has been signed by shakespear. The book cover is so time worn and damaged that there is no title left.

[@librarylu]

In Henslow's diary we find the names of the following men who were all writers for Henslowe's theatres: Chapman, Chettle, Day, Dekker, Drayton, Haughton, Heywood, Jonson, Marston, Middleton, Munday, Porter, Rankins, Rowley, Wadeson, Webster and Wilson. Here we find mentioned practically all the dramatic writers of that day with any claim to distinction, with one exception only, that of Shakspere who is never once mentioned in Henslowe's diary, which completely ignores his existence. "

[@librarylu]

John Lackland also had the daughter of Constance, Duchess of Brittany, imprisoned. (Eleanor was Arthur's sister).

[@librarylu]

De Vere lived Hamlet. Peregrine Bertie, his brother-in-law was an ambassador to the Danish Court. MacBeth was Lady Lennox' family history. De Vere was on a guest list with her; presumably he knew her. He had his own literary circle based at Fisher's Folly, leased Blackfriars and sponsored two acting companies. He was an insider at court, Lord Great Chamberlain & favorite of the Queen. Orthodoxy would have us believe the Stratford man got his inside information at the Mermaid tavern.

[@librarylu]

"You would not expect may records of his early life" No, but the biographies are based on those. It's assumed he must have gone to school, been a butcher's boy (there's no record his father was a butcher), set off for London "one fine day" and so on. The references to an actor were two out of three from Jonson, and the link to Stratford-upon-Avon seems to be the story Shakspere met his end after a drinking bout with Jonson and Drayton.

[@fredmatthews]

Hello All, I am currently conducting Academic Research into the highbrow and lowbrow of Online community groups- In one word, if you like (eg Highbrow or Lowbrow) how would you rank yourselves as users of this site? Are you discerning over the content and communities you take part in and consume online? Has this video above got higher cultural value than a video of, say, a cat on treadmill...not that that exists on KZbin(that I know of...) Any help would be hugely appreciated!

[@heliotropezzz333]

The line is in there according to internet sources, with just one word difference as I quoted previously. The published work would have been based on written manuscripts and perhaps players memories. We can only conjecture whether the one word was changed or whether Jonson misheard the line because there is not a written record of everyone's thoughts and doings at that time. My conjecture about reasons for that is less far fetched than conjecture about some conspiracy to protect De Vere.

[@steveormeproductions]

Thanks for your comments Monica - I've really been enjoying your debate on the authorship controversy. I can't understand why the de Vere case gets so much prominence, especially when the Bacon claim seems to be stronger. Have you seen my Mark Rylance video? Some interesting points but of course none of them can be proved. Steve

[@librarylu]

Richard and John's young nephew, Arthur of Brittany, was named the heir by Richard. Arthur fought John for the throne, John had Arthur imprisoned and may have murdered him. In the play Arthur was still alive when Constance was lamenting. I think the reference is historical. The historical John married his illegitimate daughter, Joan, to Llywelyn the Great, BTW.

[@librarylu]

"(48) Edward Alleyn, who was not only an eminent actor but also a theatrical proprietor, who founded Dulwich College, left his memoirs which contain the names of all the notable actors and dramatists in Shakspere's time, as well as the name of every person who helped or received money in connection with the production of all the plays at the Blackfriars, Fortune and other theatres. How is it that Alleyn in this list of actors and dramatists does not even once mention Shakspere? "

[@librarylu]

"Sir Sidney Lee says: "On May 4th [1597], he purchased the largest house in the town, known as New Place [in Stratford]. It had been built by Sir Hugh Clopton, more than a century before; it had fallen into a ruinous condition. But Shakespeare paid for it, with two barns and two gardens, the then substantial sum of sixty pounds" home . att . net/~mleary/pennl8 . htm Sir Sidney Lee stands corrected.

[@librarylu]

It is not known who the sitter was in the Chandos. It's authentic in that it hasn't been altered to look more like Shakspere was supposed to look, but it's not known for certain who painted it or when.

[@edydon]

In Shakespeare's time, theatre was not respected. No one was waiting for the play to be "finished." So Shakespeare's plays became more polished and refined as they were performed - seen by soldiers and sailers who could ensure the truthfulness of his language. Also, as the plots became known and practiced, subtexts developed. That growth in use is a big part of the genius. You see the same thing in ancient Greek orations.

[@heliotropezzz333]

When Shakespeare lived in Silver St London (and this address was recorded in the evidence he gave in a court case) he was living near to Hemmings his theatre company's manager. When Hemmings's widow died her will showed she left books. She was unlikely to have bought them herself. It's likely they were her husband's property and that they were used in the theatre company he managed - The Chamberlain's men -later the King's Men. When Shakespeare died he left money in his will to Hemmings.

[@librarylu]

Or Saxo's story of Amleth? The text did not appear in English until 1608, so the author must have been fluent in French or Latin or he used an unknown translation. Or he based Hamlet on the "Ur-Hamlet". The play was performed on the London stage and is thought to be by Kyd. It was a tragedy and there was a Hamlet in it and a ghost who cried "Hamlet, revenge!" If Oxford wrote both plays the problem disappears. He was fluent in several languages (and was captured by pirates).

[@librarylu]

Apparently Thorpe used a cipher to reveal the author's name. Hint: it isn't William Shaksper of Stratford-upon-Avon.

[@heliotropezzz333]

Here's a list of his contemporaries who mentioned him: Willia Covell;Richard Barnfield;Francis Meres;Gabriel Harvey;John Weever;Ben Jonson;Richard Greene; John Webster;Michael Drayton;Thomas Heywood;Frnacis Beaumont;William Camden;William Drummond;Robert BurtonJohn Harrington, Humphrey Dyson; Edward Alleyn; Hemmings and Condell

[@librarylu]

Rev. John Ward talked to a surviving granddaughter who said her grandfather had not been a poet.

[@heliotropezzz333]

There is more than one link of the London Shakespeare of the theatre to Stratford. There is the gift in the will to the actors in the Chamberlain's men company, Condell and Hemynges and there are references in the plays to local names including 2 wool merchants his father dealt with and 2 men on the recusants list with his father and other local names.I have previously referenced names and quotations on this site and the enigma site.

[@heliotropezzz333]

This debate has taken off like a house on fire! Ben Jonson said the Droeshout etching was a good likeness and Ben Jonson knew Shakespeare. There were 16 different spellings used of John Shakespeare's family in Stratford, one of which was Shakespeare. Shakespeare liked to keep a low profile it seems. Ben Jonson said Shakespeare was both a playwright and actor. There are refences in his plays that can be linked to his Stratford origins. The word "fap" used for drunk,is a local word.

[@librarylu]

Lord Hunsdon became the patron of the Lord Chamberlain's Men, which performed the Shakespearean plays after 1594 (Wikipedia) after Emilia left court (he paid her off after impregnating her and she was then married to her cousin, Alfonso, a Queen's musician). An association with the company seems tenuous at best. She published one book of poems, Salve Deus Rex Judaeorum, in 1611. Have I mentioned Edward de Vere owned two acting companies and employed two playwrights as his secretaries?

[@librarylu]

According to Roper, the younger Peacham couldn't have been the artist. The "g" is a "g" and stands for 70. The page was given to Hicks who was in Burghley's household. As Burghley's secretary, Hicks would have been at Hatfield house. Totally fascinating chapter! A date of 1574 not only blows Shaksper out of the water it eliminates most of the other candidates as well. They were children! 1574 fits perfectly with Oxford before he left for the continent and began to perfect his writing style.

[@librarylu]

1604 - Members of the Kings Men were granted four-and-a-half yards of scarlet cloth for a Royal procession by the Master of the Wardrobe. They were William Shakespeare, Augustine Phillipps, Lawrence Fletcher, John Heminges, and Richard Burbage. That's it, the total record of WS the actor. There are as many records of William Shaksper failing to pay his taxes.

[@librarylu]

We have de Vere's published adolescent poetry, seventy letters, his Bible with its notes and contemporary praise for his accomplishments. His life ties him to the plays. The documentation on Shaksper ties him to petty litigation and a load of stone.

[@librarylu]

"The Earl of Southampton was his patron,... " Even traditionalists tend to agree Southampton was the young man of the sonnets. He was nearly de Vere's son-in-law and de Vere sat on his jury. De Vere was also a favorite of the queen's (and rumored to have have bedded her six months after she had his cousin, Norfolk, beheaded) except for three years after the birth of his illegitimate son by Anne Vavasour. His uncle, Arthur Golding, invented iambic pentameter.

[@librarylu]

"Isn't it odd, when you think of it, that you may list all of the celebrated Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotchmen clear back to the first Tudors - a list of five hundred names, shall we say? - and you can learn the particulars of the lives of every one of them. Every one of them except one - the most famous, the most renowned - by far the most illustrious of them all - Shakespeare!" - Mark Twain (AKA Samuel Clemens)

[@heliotropezzz333]

(continued) He is also described as "gent" as his family was keen to show their social status. By then they had established a coat of arms. "gent" is term used widely now when people are being polite, but then it was not. The world of playwrighting was one where plays were much discussed and sources shared and plundered, orally. There would have been much talk about work in the artistic community and info from patrons. Similar to the world of folk music where old sources are not copywright.

[@heliotropezzz333]

Jonson was also saying that the downside to Shakespeare writing so fast and never blotting lines out was that he did not stop to mend his gaffes. It's not suggested that he was unwilling to mend gaffes - more that he wrote so fast that he did not stop to check. It was a counter to the assertion that Jonson was a slow writer. Aubrey wrote quite some time after Shakespeare's death - see my former comment..

[@librarylu]

"...calls him the Swan of Avon..." Bilton Hall and Wilton House, residences of Edward de Ver and Mary Sidney respectively, were both on the Avon. Stratford was the theater district and the closest town to Hackney Church where de Vere was buried. These writings may have been part of a deliberate misdirection. The times were dangerous. De Vere's son, Henry, had been in the tower twice by 1623. The other earls mentioned here were the leaders of the opposition to the Spanish marriage.

[@librarylu]

"Shakespeare stands for " shaker of the spear".Athena" Or Minerva in Roman mythology. Gabriel Harvey wrote of Edward de Vere in 1578: "Thine eyes flash fire; thy countenance shakes a spear; who would not swear that Achilles had come to life again?" The Oxford crest is a lion shaking a spear.

[@librarylu]

At the time Greene was writing his last pamphlet Alleyn was acting in a play he'd written, Tambercam. Greene began his address to Marlowe, author of Tamburlaine, the "best of you" for blank verse. Marlowe's reputaion was already declining, but Alleyn was powerful and connected to Henslowe by business and marriage. He would have been in a position to make demands of Chettle. Why would you even want this scainindictment

[@cwwiss1]

@angerdux8 you are correct. I guessed that is was named after his son . I didn't know about "The life of Amleth"..my bad. However he could have dedicated it to him as the names are so similar? The graveyard scene is one of the most poignant moments in the whole cannon .Could he have been speaking to his dead son?

[@librarylu]

Work may have been needed more than school. John Shakspere had problems. "By 1578 he was behind in his taxes and stopped paying the statutory aldermanic subscription for poor relief. In 1579, he had to mortgage Mary Shakespeare's estate, Asbies, to pay his creditors. In 1580 he was fined 40 pounds for missing a court date and in 1586 the town removed him from the board of aldermen due to lack of attendance..." -Shakespeare Online

[@librarylu]

Within the writings is the identity of the author - to Oxfordians the Mousetrap is clearly about the death of de Vere's father. His mother remarried beneath her station to a former Master of the Horse for the Dudleys, the Queen took some of his lands and gave them to suspected murderer Robert Dudley. Hamlet would seem to have more in common with de Vere's life than with Beowulf (no dragons). Peregrine Bertie, de Vere's broher-in-law, was an ambassador to the Danish Court. Ophelia is Anne Cecil.

[@librarylu]

I've seen it, thanks. Most of it's been covered already.

[@librarylu]

Compiled by Condell and Hemmings. The folio was published by the Jaggard firm, dedicated to, and under the patronage of Phillip and William Herbert. They were the two sons of Mary Sidney. Phillip married Edward de Vere's daughter, Susan. The King's Men was formerly the Lord Chamberlain's Men. William became Lord Chamberlain in 1615. The Jaggard firm dedicated ARXAIO-PLOUTOS to Lady Susan Vere. Droeshout was 22 in 1623. It's unlikely he ever saw the subject.

[@librarylu]

Bacon's crest had a boar on it. So did Oxford's. Sogliardo had a headless boar on his. There was a William Shakspere born in Stratford-upon-Avon. Stratford was the theater district, now part of the city of London. A Londoner reading Jonson's verses introducing the 1st Folio would have thought of that Stratford rather than Stratford-upon-Avon four days journey away. Both Oxford and Mary Sidney had homes on the Avon. Her symbol was the swan. The swan was thought to be mute, only singing at death.

[@heliotropezzz333]

Thank you so much belinskii. Another voice of reason!

[@librarylu]

"The drone more honey sucks, that laboureth not at all, Than doth the bee, to whose most pain least pleasure doth befall: The gard'ner sows the seeds, whereof the flowers do grow, And others yet do gather them, that took less pain I trow. So I the pleasant grape have pulled from the vine, And yet I languish in great thirst, while others drink the wine." -EO Have you even read Oxford's poetry? What survives under his name was written when he was very young.

[@edydon]

The statue on Shakespeare's tomb shows him writing on a pillow. Who writes on a pillow? Many think the statue originally was of a grain merchant and was changed later.

[@heliotropezzz333]

The timing of events and the writing of plays may be key to this.

[@steveormeproductions]

Thanks for your note. My documentary was made before Bill Rubenstein suggested Sir Henry Neville as a candidate. Best wishes. Steve

[@librarylu]

"No one we know of ever suggested during Shaksper's life that he was the author Shakespeare, or an author of any kind. Shakespeare's contemporaries made it quite plain that they did not consider the Stratford man the author. So far as we can tell, Shaksper did not come to be generally accepted as the author until two generations or more after his death." - Charton Ogburn, in Harvard Magazine, November 1974 pbs . org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shakespeare/debates/ogburnarticle . html

[@heliotropezzz333]

There are links between Shakespeare in London and Stratford. If you read Peter Ackroyd's autobiography, many of Shakespeare's associates in London came from stratford-on Avon He kept up connections. When he had to give evidence in relation to his landord in Silver St London, by then he had left and his address to the court was given as Stratford-on Avon. He had a youngr brother Edmund who came to London and was buried there. There are connections if you look.

[@librarylu]

"Hudson may mean how she wrote her various names into the plays" Hudson says: "The 3 swans dying to music in the Shakespearean plays form a literary signature, a classical device that acted as sort of copyright proving that the plays were written by Amelia Bassano Lanier (1569-1645)." If de Vere was bisexual might not the masculine and feminine viewpoints seem to feel "right"? I don't know that Lanier was ejected from court. She'd been Baron Hunsdon's mistress for years before that.

[@heliotropezzz333]

Yes, but many people find out about things through necessity. It would not have been necessary for De Vere to be bothered to find out about the experiences of ordinary children, in order to write good plays, but it would have been necessary for Shakespeare to raise his game and find out about many things in order to write good plays. In fact the experiences of children were not considered much in literature by adults. It sounds more like personal experience.

[@librarylu]

"Generally, Elizabethan actors in production did not receive full copies of the text, just "cue-scripts," which contained only their lines and cues. This was designed in part to prevent unauthorized distribution and/or publication of the plays. Sixteenth century England had begun to enforce a form of copyright law through the Stationers' Register, but the system was far from perfect, being more concerned with the rights of the publisher rather than author." willowcabin . com/works . htm

[@heliotropezzz333]

He worked on a play about Thomas more with Thomas Middleton and there are original manuscripts in his handwriting. There is written testimony of others also.

[@daver8521]

The problem is that as far as is known, there was no "petty school" in Stratford at that time. The first mention of one is in 1604, some 30 years after Shakespeare would have attended it. This doesn't mean that there couldn't have been one; it just means that there's no evidence of one. So we don't know, just as we don't know if Shakespeare attended the grammar school.

[@librarylu]

"The only difference being that the memorial bust shows him as having put on weight. " In engravings from 1656 & 1709 it's a man with a long mustache holding a sack. home . att . net/~tleary/monument . htm It was apparently "upgraded" to reflect the idea Shakspere was a poet. In the church record of his death he was identified as "gent". If the sack represents his occupation he was a grain dealer. The Herberts were not the "de Vere family" and they were not acknowledging the Stratford man.

[@librarylu]

In fact there are no records during his lifetime of him being an actor, even in the touring companies. The first thirty years of his life are a blank aside from baptisms (his and his childrens') banns posted and a brief mention in a lawsuit involving his father.

[@DownwardSlideBlues]

Any literary piece has to be read within the cultural context of the time and place that the play was written in order to place the origins of the references held therein to historical events and other literary works, songs and even folklore alluded to.

[@daver852]

The authorship controversy is a subject that many reject out of hand without taking the trouble to learn about it. The one more learns, the more it seems impossible that the Stratford man, Shakespeare, ever wrote anything. Of the alternative candidates, Marlowe is by far the most likely. There are references to Marlowe throughout the Shakespearean canon, although he almost never refeences other cotemporary writers. If you read only one side, you never learn anything.

[@heliotropezzz333]

If you google "William Shakespeare documentary evidence " there's a list of all the direct documentary evidence relating to him and some info about his business transactions, mortgages and debts.

[@librarylu]

"Henry de Vere went to the tower twice because he was indiscreet." " In July 1621 an incautious expression of dissatisfaction with the Spanish match led to a few weeks' imprisonment in the Tower of London... On returning from sea he expressed a hope that a time might come when justice should be free and not pass through the favourite's hands. He was sent to the Tower on 20 April 1622 for a second time.... he was released in December 1623, after a twenty months' imprisonment" - Wikipedia

[@daver8521]

Here's the thing. Nobody who was anybody ever mentioned Shakespeae as a writer during his lifetime. You would think that out of the thousands of letters that survive from the 16th and 17th centuries, there would be at least one that says something along the lines of "Will Shakespeare, you know, the famous playwright from Stratford." There are none. No one paid any attention when he died. No elegies, no burial in Westminster Abbey. The very few contemporary references to him are as an actor.

[@librarylu]

The Groatsworth may not have been wriiten by Greene (he was dying). Henry Chettle, the publisher, denied forging it but accepted some responsibility and apologized to one of the two "play-makers" who were offended by it. It's assumed this referred to Shakespeare. But the upstart crow may have been Edward Alleyn. The "tiger's heart" line may refer to his role in The True Tragedy of Richard, Duke of York, AKA Henry Vi, pt.3, not the playwright. Alleyn once broke the boards in a real "shake-scene".

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

My "must haves" is that the Author needed a certain level of education, a certain amount of exposure or access to some areas of knowledge, and genius. While this applies to both Oxford AND Shakespeare, the fact remains that letters and diary entries as well as the original publication of the plays lists Shakespeare as the author. He doesn't need to see a specific mural to come up with "seven ages" nor does he need to be present at Henri's court to find out who was there.

[@librarylu]

How about de Vere's songs? From The Forsaken Man: "Drown me with trickling tears, You wailful wights of woe; Come help these hands to rend my hairs, My rueful hap to show." That sounds pretty emotional to me. His behavior seems emotional to me too, such as daring to travel without the queen's permission, cutting ties with his wife and inlaws for five years because of his "disgrace" over Anne's pregnancy, refusing to dance for the French, his affair with her lady of the bedchamber...

[@librarylu]

"Texts weren't valued or copywrighted in the same way then." Copyrights protected publishers - to some extent. I can see some charwoman cleaning up the study after the First Folio was published. She picks up the originals, says, "Well, they won't need these anymore", and chucks them in the fire.

[@librarylu]

"We do know that Shakespeare went to a school in Stratford" No, we don't. There are no records of this. Why were no plays, poems or books mentioned in his will? Why are there no letters written by him? He was a hoarder in time of famine and a tax-evader. If he was the toast of London as a playwright, why couldn't he be found by the tax collectors? No snobbery involved. De Vere had all the qualifications and owned two acting companies. Many of those stories are right out of his life.

[@librarylu]

"It's not true that there's no evidence of Shakespeare living in London. " I didn't say that. However, when the first play to appear under the Shakespeare name was published (1598) and someone named William Shakespeare was praised in print as a sonneteer and playwright among the best for comedy and tragedy, the records show William Shakspere was "involved in a matter of tithes", accused with others of hoarding grain and paid for a load of stone - all in Stratford-upon-Avon.

[@librarylu]

" (49) Phillip Henslowe, the theatrical manager who had erected the Rose Theatre on Bankside, Southwark, in 1592, was the greatest theatrical agent and producer of his day and kept a diary (which has been preserved) in which he sets down the sums that he paid to various authors for their work. How is it that the names of Shakespeare, Shakspere, Shaxspur or Shagsper do not appear anywhere in this diary? (con't)

[@librarylu]

"I am not concerned with De Vere's heritage here" I am. He was "to the manor born". He didn't need to "climb" in court as William Cecil did. He defied the Queen herself on more than one occasion. He was reported to drink too much, associate with "lewd persons" and be "irreligious." He was also a champion in tournaments and was one who "bore the canopy" (it was aught to him). Sounds like a poet/playwright to me. There's no reason he couldn't have been tender and introspective too.

[@librarylu]

Greene's Player states "The Twelve Labors of Hercules have I terribly thundered on the stage." This can only refer to Edward Alleyn. The Player is also a "country author" who wrote morals, but now he needs new material and hires Roberto to write for him. The Player is the leader of the troop. Greene was abandoned in his time of need by those who were getting rich off his work. His bitter warning to playwrights was that though actors owe them their livelihood they'll do it to them too.

[@librarylu]

"That's just the first three." No hyphen and I was referring to the way he himself spelled his name, if those are his signatures. (a) From 1612 deposition: William Shackper (b) 1612 Blackfriars deed:William Shakspear (c) 1612 Blackfriars mortgage: Wm Shakspea (d) His 1615 will, page 1: William Shackspere (e) Will, page 2: Willm. Shakspere (f) Will, page 3: By me William Shakspeare [often questioned as by a different hand] And those are all six.

[@librarylu]

Spear-shaker also refers to Pallas Athena.

[@heliotropezzz333]

"Golden lad and lasses must, as chimneysweepers, come to dust" "Golden lads were what dandelions were know nas in Warwickshire and chimney sweepers were the seeded heads of dendelions. Fluellen and Bardolph were men accused of recusancy on the same list as John Shakespeare in Stratford. There are many other local references.I think the play may have been some kind of collaboration rather than Shakespeare just being a front. Anyway, if others wrote and did not claim credit - tough!

[@librarylu]

Getting back to the virginals - "...The Queen was in the Privy Chamber playing on the virginals when news was brought that the sentence against Essex had been carried into execution. Her Majesty continued to play; and Lord Oxford, as if in reference to the notes - or 'jacks' as they were called - dancing up and down beneath her fingers glanced at Sir Walter and said bitterly: 'When Jacks start up, heads go down." - B.M.Ward