The Shocking Truth about Cheating in College

[@everything-has-a-handle-now]

Honestly the main reason I cheated on some tests was because the risk of cheating was lower than having to tell my parents I failed the class. Funny thing is the classes I cheated are actually the things I'm best at now in my discipline. In my opinion if you want students to stop cheating it should be made clear that *it's okay to fail.* Both from the school and parents.

[@noThankyou-g5c]

unfortunately in the US at least this will never be possible until a single class doesnt cost thousands of dollars. They handle this issue a lot better in europe. Since an entire semester costs anywhere from $400 to actually paying you a stipend, failing isnt the end of the world. Conversely a lot more people fail their classes. (it doesn’t matter as much though bc they can always take it again, as many times as it takes)

[@aspenshadow7920]

You do this by making college free

[@lagautmd]

As Aspenshadow says, do it by making college free. Parents are mostly just annoyed that they have to pay for you to retake a class.

[@harrytsang1501]

This indeed. In the closest friend circle we discussed and came to the conclusion that it is simply not worth it to be honest and fail the class. The cascading pre-requisites and once-a-year offering makes deferring graduation a certainty. The other side of it is also just to level the playing field during online exams.

[@nb2078]

@@aspenshadow7920 free college wouldn’t fix it. People are always gonna cheat it’s in our nature to find an upper hand. You can see this in elementary school kids who don’t think about money at all will still cheat. We just use the price of school as a way justify it in our own minds on why we are cheating because we know it’s wrong but people are still going to do it

[@noahlindenberg6180]

A 3 credit hr class costs ~$7k at my university. Learning by failing is great and all but it’s not a privilege most students can afford. I think a lot of professors lose sight of that and think about their class in a purely academic sense. Also, from what I can tell, the high ethical standards go out the window once you hit the private sector, especially if you’re wealthy to begin with.

[@skateboarderlucc]

America is so fucked dude.

[@nilebrixton8436]

as a working adult returning to academia for self enrichment I 100% agree with this.

[@amadousagna7053]

Bro 7k is outrageous😭💀💀

[@BlackCodeMath]

One could also learn by doing their best in the class from the very beginning. I learned this weird trick after "failing" two required math courses with Ds and having to retake them. So much of the "I can understand why some students cheat" narrative skips over the part where you put the work in and never have to consider the retake cost and GPA hit.

[@InfiniteQuest86]

How is that not motivation not to fail?

[@JuanFelipeCalle]

I taught English at a community college for decades. Here is my experience with plagiarism, the most common form of cheating in my discipline: 1. As a new professor, I heard some of the more experienced professors laugh about plagiarists and take great joy in finding them, failing them, and reporting them. They took plagiarism personally. I never mocked people or enjoyed the process, but I thought I had to take a zero tolerance approach to plagiarists and either give them a zero for the paper or fail them for the entire class. 2. As I became more experienced and I had conversations with the students who plagiarized, I began to understand why students plagiarized. Some felt overwhelmed or unsure of their own writing. Some felt like they were too busy to complete an assignment. Some were not yet skilled at properly paraphrasing or summarizing sources, even after a few lessons in class. 3. So I began to set up my class to reduce the incidences of plagiarism (as did many of my fellow professors, more or less independently). We started the semester with low-stakes assignments, broke important assignments down into smaller assignments to allow us to pinpoint problems before they became big, and, for my part, I gave students who plagiarized a chance to rewrite their plagiarized paper. Some students would take that chance and write a great paper, others would take the chance and write a terrible paper, but it was their paper, and if they were doing well enough in the class otherwise, they still might pass, and others would just stop coming and fail the class. Once I made those changes, I never had to refer anyone to a dean for plagiarism. PS. We can easily spot plagiarism even without Turnitin.com. The benefit of Turnitin is that it speeds up the process, helps us find evidence, but if you are good enough to plagiarize without getting caught by your professor, you are basically paraphrasing well, so you may as well add the proper citations and not take any risk.

[@TheMathSorcerer]

Thank you so much for this comment!!

[@Raiden0831]

"if you are good enough to plagiarize without getting caught by your professor, you are basically paraphrasing well, so you may as well add the proper citations and not take any risk" very good point

[@BlackCodeMath]

Excellent reply. Structuring the class to ramp students up to more difficult assignments, providing support, even some forgiveness, what novel ideas! Much more likely to see this done at the K-12 level. I guess there is a feeling in some profs at the university level that a need for rigor and the supposed greater intellectual maturity of students requires a more spartan learning environment.

[@SequinBrain]

There are also schools & teachers who cheat students by: 1. Putting any form of a trick question on a test. There is no way to answer these unless by probability you happen to get it right. 2. Putting something on the test that IS related to the subject, but was covered nowhere in the text or lectures, and 3. Putting something on the test that isn't even related to the subject at all, was covered nowhere, and their excuse is a flippant "you can google it." All these are methods for the ever popular and growing trend of forcing low grades which is 180° from instructive education and as such is cheating the student out of both the education they signed up for and their futures.

[@kilian8250]

Well testing if the student is able to solve a question about something that was not covered explicitly in class is a great way to test whether the student understands the subject well or not. Especially in math, just being able to solve ”standard” problems doesn’t barely says anything about your understanding of the subject.

[@SequinBrain]

@@kilian8250 the trick question is typically something that was never covered anywhere by anyone and should be illegal but for some reason that has nothing to do with education or information transferal is allowed by people who don't comprehend the requirements of real education. They're just in it for the $$.

[@Themathosphere]

@@kilian8250 that’s not what the guy is saying. He’s basically saying for example if your test is on partial derivatives and there are 3 questions on surface integrals that’s unfair because you haven’t even learned those yet.

[@kilian8250]

A KZbin Channel that depends on how the question is phrased

[@jeremias-serus]

@@Themathosphere When does this happen though? Seems like fiction to be honest. I remember that only the lowest achievers in highschool and college would say this.

[@nickstoltz8817]

Straight up, in Engineering school, I have never met someone who never cheated in my entire life. From copying assignments, to using online or a friend's resources from past semesters, every. Single. Engineer. I've ever worked with has cheated at some point in their academic career. And it's almost to be expected at this point, the profs increase the work load to even out the bell curve to account for the average student cheating. It means more work for everyone, especially those who chose not to cheat.

[@Lehpurdzzz]

Bro this has been my theory for so long. Every year people chegg all the assignments and the professor just makes them longer and harder until 10 years later it’s impossible to do without chegg within that time frame. Budget cuts too cut down class time by 5min one year, 5min the next and then the prof is rushing through 90min of material in 75min and none of us learn shit. Then they wonder why the median test grade is a 42%😒

[@xXchickenburritosXx]

It's always fun when someone asks the professor to go over a homework questions and the explanation/ them actually going through it ends up taking upwards of an hour just for that one problem... One problem out of the 27 that were assigned that week... not to mention the other 50 in total that have to be done for the rest of your classes

[@TomokoAbe_]

Get caught-there are consequences. Try cheating taking a proctored math exam. You will get caught. I can guarantee it.

[@MikeB3542]

Maybe the time and place was different (Illinois, mid-1980s) and maybe I was just a sweet summer child, but went through four years of engineering school without cheating. Not once. Not on quizzes, not on lab reports, not on hourly exams, not on term papers, not on final exams. And I just didn't see it with any of my fellow engineering students. The sad part is that in a field like engineering, cheating is pointless. If you don't actually know your "do-re-mis", nobody is going to be fooled.

[@patarite]

Wish there was a superlike button for this comment

[@Ariminua]

"When Students cheat on exams it's because our School System values grades more than Students value learning." Neil deGrasse Tyson.

[@burrito1413]

“🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓”

[@1dingerr]

What a stupid quote lol. You want to learn? Watch a video or buy a course for $20 online. People don't pay $100k+ to universities because they want to learn, they do it so they can get a degree that will get them a better job. Grades measure applied knowledge. The purpose of universities is to measure your performance to determine if you deserve a degree - it's not learning for the sake of learning. Students cheat because they know they haven't learned the material and they are lacking integrity. It's students that care more about grades, not the school system lol.

[@ye1475]

Fax

[@Celeritate7]

It's also because they weren't raised right, let's not exempt everyone from personal responsibility

[@iirisitaa]

@@Celeritate7 not so much that werent raised right or not, as other comment said, sometimes cheating is the only solution because the teacher cant teach for shit, and thousands of dollars are on the line, personally never done it, but i understand it, not a lot of people can afford to lose so much money and then pay again for the same course

[@ViciousTheDesolate]

Cheating went down in my math program when professors started to encourage people to work together versus work alone. Professor led a discussion in starting a study group and awarded a 5% credit in our final grade for students who showed up. Scores dramatically improved in the class.

[@kilian8250]

Doesn’t homework usually fill the same role? In my experience the homework usually gives some extra points for the final exam, and collaboration is encouraged.

[@ViciousTheDesolate]

​@@kilian8250 Yes for sure. Consider that after spending 12+ years in a school system where collaboration isn't encouraged, and when you are in grade/middle/high school you can't just have people over to study without parents involved. University has a lot of resources that are underused (like study rooms for classes) so it's also part of the math department encouraging students to use the spaces and resources they offer.

[@julianbell9161]

I’m an electrical engineer with a bachelors and masters degree. There is so much horseshit and bullshit in academia. You learn so much stupid shit that is a total waste of time. I don’t care if you cheat. I cheated a little bit during my first year of college. Look at it this way, there are classes that are pre requisites for other classes, if you fail one of these classes it will set you back a year. That’s thousands of more dollars of student debt. If I came to you and said “if you fail this test, it will cost you $10,000,” you might fucking start to sweat a little bit. You might start thinking that cheating just a little might be a pretty smart thing to do. This is the reality of a students in America. Cheating is never discussed in this context, it’s always discussed in some bullshit, hyper-moralistic, virtue signaling way.

[@Wizard101duncan]

💯 couldn’t agree more. At some point you almost gotta be dumb to not cheat when it comes to taking some random course that bears absolutely no relevance to your major/discipline. Is it really worth forfeiting all that time for studying complete nonsense when you could otherwise be creating genuine social experiences and doing things you actually wanted to do during your 20s? Now obviously if it’s something related/important towards your major, then buckle up and hit the library cause you’re gonna need it

[@nixalot9065]

That and I never fully understood why certain things are considered cheating. I'm an aircraft software engineer and I couldn't imagine a scenario where my boss would come to me and go, "if I catch you looking up library references or approaching colleagues how they solved a similar issue then you are FIRED and I'll make sure ever getting a job again will be nearly impossible!" But in academia, referencing formula or events is considered a mortal sin. If a question on a test can be answered simply because a student is allowed to reference something then that is a poorly written test.

[@victoralvarez3217]

Professors and people against cheating live in a fantasy world where the academic system doesn't heavily penalize failure.

[@ashharkausar413]

This is 100% true.

[@Frankfurter420]

yes king

[@nathandavis7962]

The sad reality is that cheating is a biproduct of an educational system that is built on competition and the purposeful exclusion of the lowest acheivers. The purpose of tests, grades, GPAs, and diplomas is to give employers an easy way to exclude applicants, because there are more people applying for the job than available positions. My goal as a student was always to learn the subject. I didn't care what my grades were, and as a result I never had any interest in cheating. I only cared about things that helped me learn the subject. As someone that wants to learn, the grading system and cheating are a pain in the ass! I don't want to waste time figuring out how to cheat on a test just like I don't want to waste time taking that test. Both of those things take away from my ability to learn. I often saw other students cheating, but I never bothered stopping them. That would just waste my time, and there is no "unfair" advantange when you don't care about the grade. Their goal was to get a grade. My goal was to learn. Their cheating didn't affect my learning, but having entire lectures devoted to discussing cheating and its consequences did take away from my abiltiy to learn. I also value teaching. So everytime I couldn't show someone else my work, because that is "cheating," really bothered me. This is purposefully limiting an opportunity to teach and learn for the sake of a broken system. I hate that. It is inherently anti-knowledge. I think the educational system is broken. For most people in it the focus is on the competition not the knowledge. (Teachers are the main exception to this, but they have to bend to the system too.) I wish the system could be made better, but I can't see how to do that. And it seems like no one else knows how either. Until the world is a very different place than it is today, the best we can do is work through this system, but that doesn't make it is a good system. All of our greatest achievements have been from people that value knowledge. Valuing grades only produces better tests and better ways to cheat them. Humanity's potential will be greatly improved the day that we can abandon the current educational system and move to one based on knowledge rather than competition.

[@scalycoronet5198]

You are absolutely right. My teacher was out in 8th grade for the whole year on medical leave. I was in an honors class and the subs gave us 100’s for doing nothing all year and let us play games on the computer. The next year I was in honors geometry and then halfway through the year we got sent home for covid and I didn’t learn anything, and had to get a tutor to try and figure out what I was doing wrong since we didn’t need to have like online meetings or anything that year. Then the next year I was in honors algebra 2 and wasn’t able to see my tutor because of quarantine, so I didn’t know algebra 1 or geometry and the teacher never took the time to explain it to me, and if I failed I wouldn’t graduate on time (you needed 4 years of math and english, and 3 of history and science). So I wasn’t learning anything, nobody at the school was helping me, not the teacher, not the guidance counselor, not even my third party tutor. So I went out of my way to teach myself algebra 1, algebra 2 and geometry all at the same time, but couldn’t learn it in time for the end of the year, forcing me to cheat if I wanted to graduate, getting me stuck in honor precalculus and trigonometry in the following year. If the school didn’t judge me based on a grade I wouldn’t have needed to cheat, and now I know that when I get to graduate that diploma is going to feel meaningless because I know I didn’t deserve it, and none of my classmates, none of my teacher could help me because they’d be helping me cheat. The education system can and will leave you behind extremely fast and then punish you for it, and the only way to stay ahead of the curve is either to base your mentality around engaging with it and value getting good grades, to be naturally good at it or understand it naturally, and if you get left behind then you’re pretty much screwed unless you cheat, because your school isn’t going to take the time to help you out. And then if you get caught you’re punished for it, and if you don’t cheat and you start failing, they force you to come in on weekends and during the summer and make it all up, meaning they’re allowed to invade what little personal time you actually have compared to the time you spend at school. It’s ridiculous and if you say anything about it you get punished. My education experience has led me to not trust school, to have no interest in it, and has done nothing but show me that worst side of, and make me distrust organizations that claim to help or educate. I have no interest in ever continuing my schooling or engaging with the education system again, and once I graduate I’m done

[@t0k4m4k7]

Very eye opening comment, it's almost as if all this was tucked in the back of my brain for a long time

[@adriantsai3542]

I agree with you personally, but I will play the devil’s advocate a little. Without competition or looking at a student’s grade what’s the alternative? Do we just let everyone have scholarships and jobs even though they’re incompetent? These resources are quite limited. And if grades weren’t important, how would we make students have an incentive to take their education seriously? In theory, in a perfect world, the student would just focus on learning with a passion rather than having a good grade, but let’s not kid ourselves, an immature middle or high schooler when told their grades don’t matter would not take this opportunity to become self motivated and study, instead they would just procrastinate and play games with learning on the bottom of their priority list. Then things fall into anarchy because the system is not built around incentives but some lofty ideal that is just not meant for flawed, greedy, humans to follow. So I do see the problem with the education system but I honestly don’t see any other reasonable alternative that doesn’t have competition and doesn’t have grades.

[@egoworks5611]

Interesting thread

[@scalycoronet5198]

@@adriantsai3542 Competition and effort should be incentivized, but I just think the current grading system is the wrong way to do it. A grade never measures how smart you are, it just measures your ability to repeat what a teacher has told you. Like you said, giving everyone a scholarship is a bad thing because the people who do work hard end up with the same outcome as the people who don’t try, meaning there’s no reason to put any effort in. Maybe if schools graded you based on your willingness to learn, like how you engage in class, rather than your ability to memorize a topic, then it would be a little better, but I still don’t know how anyone could come up with a consistently fair grading system that doesn’t leave people behind while still encouraging you to try. I know I really don’t have an answer and I don’t think anyone does

[@knexfan0011]

At the university where I studied compSci, lots of the courses, especially the math-heavy ones, allowed students a handwritten "cheat sheet" of a certain size(like 2 or 4 pages on A4 paper, depending on the course). That way the playing field was (more) level. The exams were designed with this in mind. To me it felt like we weren't being tested on our memorization skills, but rather on our fundamental understanding of how to use the concepts that were taught. Everyone had their "cheat sheets" checked during the exam to make sure noone printed them or had more pages than was allowed. It felt like a very fair system to me as a student. While I of course can't be sure noone used additional resources, it seems like it's both more difficult to do (because every student's desk was manually inspected) and less "rewarding" because you could already, with no negative consequences, bring your condensed notes.

[@stesit]

Most my professors allowed printing and so you get a bunch of people with tiny fonts. The best part of the cheat sheet system is the process of making them is essentially studying and you end up rarely having to look at the sheet. The people who copied or used a friend's sheet end up running out of time because they spend too long looking for the answers.

[@knexfan0011]

@@stesit Absolutely. Combing through the material, deciding what I should write down vs. what I already know, then grouping that together in a meaningful way ended up being my go-to studying technique. Even for exams where I wasn't allowed to bring it in, just the process of making it helped a lot with learning.

[@AcidDaBomb]

I think a lot of tests should be open notes. One of my CompSci professors was like "in the real world, you have google, you have your notes, your co-workers, if your boss tells you to code something and you need help, you can get it...why should my class be different?" he countered this by saying his time limit on tests were shorter then other classes. So if you expected to just be able to research every question you'd be in for a bad time. And he was right you still had to know the content. But those notes I used them for things that I just had a hard time with. So I'd have questions I knew like the back of my hand I answer those real fast. Then the hard questions, I look at my notes.

[@t0k4m4k7]

For real man

[@jamesbldwn1]

As a manager in a STEM field business, I actually think cheat sheets are very necessary and mirror effective actual scientific work. Understanding scientific concepts is fundamentally and absolutely crucial; however, when money and project progress is on the line, cheat sheets (so to speak) are critical to make sure everything gets done right because only a superhuman or someone who has put in 10,000 hours could digest and then apply referenced information.

[@shaneyaw4542]

In real life, when people get a job they are expected to: copy their peers exactly; look up the answer on google if they do not have the answer; redo the problem until a correct solution is found; work in groups. Thus, the academic view on cheating is outdated. In fact, this outdated view does not level the playing field but favors people who can afford to pay for a tutor and/or pay for test preparation classes. Hence, it favors the rich.

[@centipedekid9824]

I have memory problems from head trauma and have trouble recalling definitions and formulas with access to a formulas sheet I'm able to get things done. So it also tries to prevent those with a disability that with a reasonable accommodation could have passed.

[@pinklady7184]

I have the same, worse in the past. I had an accident which resulted in my head injury: a fractured skull and torn scalp. I almost died within few minutes after the accident. A quick prayer saved my life. For months after the accident, I was little wobbly as my sense of coordination was impaired, but luckily that was only temporary. I am fine now. I am though very forgetful. I keep study diaries and digital scrapbooks for triggering off my memories.

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

The playing field is not even. Paying for a tutor makes the field even more uneven (and it can be a HUGE help.) Test prep is specifically about giving you an advantage in tests - not learning - and it is about as close to the definition of cheating as you can get. But there is no baseline for an even playing field, sometimes that playing field is test prep.

[@TheEvvanw]

I 100% agree with this comment. I got a job out of college as an engineer after cheating through college (never on exams, as I was too nervous, only looking up solutions on hw when I needed too) and my boss told me," this is not like school, get the answer however you need too". So my Google skills came in handy lol

[@IvyANguyen]

I had a professor who taught discrete maths and linear algebra in a different format/notation and made the exams so hard, but he allowed the class to consult anyone. For instance all proofs were to be written symbolically with very few English words. Given his strictness on a notation that is uncommon elsewhere, I feel it was a good balance as it forces the class to work with each other rather than go to outside sources. On the job in the real world, one may not be expected to Google every last little thing but still have an idea of what's going on and working with your peers on projects.

[@surrealistidealist]

In a way, when teachers and administrators let cheaters get away with it, it's all the other students that are cheated. If you're the only student in the class who isn't cheating, then that can really throw off the grading, rankings and ultimately the scholarships, grants, financial aid and selections for admissions elsewhere, including job hirings.

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

The real world is full of cheating and deception.

[@TheGhoulian]

An engineering college I was in had (and probably still does have) a cheating pipeline. Students passing down old tests/homeworks. The tests and homework were very challenging for me, and I wondered how everyone had so much free time to join clubs and have a social life while I would spend hours upon hours working on things. The ones who cheated on the tests got excellent grades and internships based on their grades and club roles. I gave it my all and most of these same companies wouldn't even interview me for an internship (I came into the college with a bad overall gpa to be fair). I guess I'm just venting, but you're right it does hurt the other students a lot. I felt like I had to works five times as hard to get the same grade just because they knew someone who had an old homework/test, and not getting the same end results like internship and job offers as they did really hurt (that's not to say I objectively deserved anything).

[@cipherbenchmarks]

This is true, in a way. The students that cheat their way through university will have a much more difficult time proving their competence to future employers. That's what I realized after I graduated.

[@gaminikokawalage7124]

Just like pro sports

[@gamar1226]

@@TheGhoulian work smart, not harder

[@OleJoe]

As a retired high school math teacher, I've run into students cheating quite a bit. There are a few measures that a teacher can take to reduce the occurrence. One is never make any one quiz, project, test, etc worth something like 50% of a student's grade. Keep each individual test, quiz just a small morsel of the overall grade. Expect students to "cheat" on any kind of take home exam or homework, by using the internet, library etc. Plan accordingly. Encourage group work for problem sessions. Stuff like that. One of the most devious cheating was the "you lost my test" scam. You give a test, the student knows they will fail and can't answer the questions. They pretend to work on the test and when everyone turns their test in, they don't. You grade and record the tests and pass them back. They raise their hand and say, "Where's my test? I was here." Sure enough, the attendance records show they were present, but you don't have their test. Then they claim you lost their exam. This has even gone so far as to end up in the Principal's office with a pissed off parent and a smug little 9th grader claiming you are an incompetent teacher. One way out of this, is to number all the tests. If 30 went out, 30 must come back. About 5 minutes before the end of class, you declare the test over and collect them. If you are short one or two tests. Keep the students in their seats and go through the tests one by one by reading off their name and checking the roster. If you call their name they can go. Eventually you're left by default with the offending student or students. Usually however, the rest of the class doesn't want to be detained and will start in on the cheater by pointing them out and yelling at them to turn in their test so they can go.

[@TheMathSorcerer]

Wow the “lost your test” strategy is crazy, I’ve never heard of that one! I agree with you about homework. Personally I think it’s best if one assumes that students will work together on all take home type things. Working together is also a very good skill that I think college students can get better at and this encourages that.

[@manamsetty2664]

Damn sir you can make videos on how to be a good teacher your experience is awesome

[@awildstevey]

Wow… Just wow. This situation sounds like a movie. You must be an incredibly patient teacher. Edit: Apparently my mom did something similar in a high school English class🙃

[@awildstevey]

@@TheMathSorcerer in my nonlinear dynamics and chaos theory class we were encouraged to work together on all assignments. The rule was that if you worked together with others you needed to write the names of the people you worked with on the work you turned in. I actually kinda liked this because it was interesting to see how different math perspectives can work together to solve problems.

[@WaelAjam]

@@TheMathSorcerer But don't you think that a group work should not be a prerequisite? For me it is impossible to think in a group. It simply distracts me,actually it is a kind of a torture.

[@FreshBeatles]

I get too much anxiety if I feel like cheating, it's much easier just to learn the material.

[@surrealistidealist]

Same! 😅 Learning takes the same or less amount of work anyway!

[@jacoboribilik3253]

Some people don't get anxious and can do stuff way more riskier than cheating without sweating in the least.

[@AlexA-zi7jt]

Also by the time you to jot down the formulas you could have memorised half of them

[@quietlife2260]

Yeah is much better.

[@adrycough]

I am still super anxious and I get good grades and don't even cheat. :(

[@MidwestSirenProductions]

Personally I believe cheating would decrease if the general operation of exams changed to reflect the times. As a future engineer, you’re not expected to have EVERYTHING memorized (coming from prior internship experience, definitely the case; lots of online lookups and peer-to-peer interactions!). If professors allowed the use of notes during exams, it would not only reduce the number of students that cheat, but also encourage better note taking and peer interaction! This past semester I took the hardest top-level course in the mechanical engineering curriculum. Unlike almost every other professor before, she allowed all quizzes and exams to be open book open note. Granted the made it abundantly clear that cheating via online homework helpers would not be tolerated, this helped me greatly. If more professors would follow in her footsteps then the notion of cheating would be so up front or “all of nothing” for those that cannot afford to drop or fail a course.

[@ecos889]

Yeah without those notes it also forces disabled students to consider cheating as well, due to having certain disabilities affecting attention span and working memory. Which is why I think a lot of current testing system's are inherently unethical and just favours those with good memories vs those who engage well with the content and can work independently or with teams to create solutions to problems that may exist in their field of study.

[@robertlozyniak3661]

​@@ecos889 The way I see it, if a "normal" student is allowed to use a calculator, then by the same logic, a cognitively disabled student should be allowed to use their own notes. After all, the calculator *is* an accommodation. We don't just tell students to "git gud" at arithmetic. We could, but we don't. Why is that?

[@wilproz]

I've had one engineering class before and the professor, who was a PhD in Engineering education took this approach to assignments. Open book, open note, calculator, and he drew the line at technology. He wanted us to have every resource available to us to solve problems since he went with the mindset that no employer will tie a hand behind your back on the jobsite and that we are meant to be using our brains to pass assessments (not exams, assessments, he hates the word exams), not our memories. Our brains are a processing device, not a storage device. And the assessments themselves were scaled in complexity and challenge to fit the amount of resources we had available to us.

[@watcherofzideozeszz]

But in reality the virtue of “its better to try honestly and fail than to cheat” doesnt save your scholarship thats the only reason you can afford to go to college in the first place. If the choices are cheat and maybe get caught vs definitely fail and have to drop out its an easy choice.

[@jetlagged3645]

And this is why cheating will probably forever more be a problem. The punishment for failing is functionally equivalent to the punishment for cheating, so logically speaking there is no reason not to at least try to get away with it because you generally either end up SOL like you already were, or you get a chance to stay in the game.

[@user-rf4vc7mt4d]

This is what a part of my college experience was like. I was always overly anxious about turning some of my comp sci projects. Now that I’ve graduated and got my degree. I’m actually improving much much faster while working. To me, college was a checklist item. I’ve learned everything I wanted on my own

[@lukavuletic1110]

Youre allowed to cheat ONLY when they make you pull an all nighter.

[@zackiz]

If you are under 25-30, you are still in the process of building the habits you are going to have for the rest of your life. Life is mostly about habits and we mostly do what we are in the habit of doing. Changing habits, especially after a long time, is really hard. So if you get into the habit early of cutting corners, cheating, being lazy, then you are gong to have to try REALLY hard to change that later. From an older guy, trust me, it's MUCH easier to learn the correct way from the beginning, even if that isn't easy, then changing something that wrong later on.

[@bowhunter8532]

Or work smart and not hard. Doing things the hard way just for the sake of it is stupid as well. I used to cheat on my tests. It made me be innovative. IMO just brunt memorization is a stupid way to learn and is not practical in real life. I know in college with some assignments you weren't supposed to work with other people on the homework. I mean what is that teaching people? A group of friends would still get together and work on it. That teaches collaboration and being helpful. Technically we were cheating....

[@jordc448]

I also think that professors get it wrong. Ive witnessed professors falsely accuse someone of cheating. Only for the student to replicate their answers in front of the teacher and class without looking at any notes. I think sometimes professors dont report the cheating and claim they "know some of you are cheating" because they have a feeling the students are cheating but cant actually prove it.

[@GAPIntoTheGame]

That is the main problem with this video, his stamens that teachers often know that you are cheating is quite literally not based on facts.

[@mrraven7445]

I never cheated in Uni but I wish I had. My first semester of senior year I failed a class whose grade was determined by only 2 test scores. Someone had a copy of the year befores test and I got offered a copy to study for it. Syllabus clearly outlined it was cheating so I declined. I failed that class and lost my scholarship. I couldn’t afford the semester after let alone waiting 2 more semesters so o dropped out. It’s been 5 years since and I still haven’t graduated because I can’t finish school because I don’t have the money to pay for it. Don’t qualify for any loans and don’t have the ability anymore to just stop working and go to a class at noon. Maybe one day when I’m much older I’ll try and finish but I really wish I had cheated.

[@goddaniel9478]

Damn bro I just want you to know I hear you. I had failed out of uni basically too at 19. I’m back in school now and I’m doing well. You have to take advantage of university! I hope you can go back brother ❤

[@mrraven7445]

@@goddaniel9478 I'm back one class a time baby!

[@borisbritva1665]

Having watched this video I understood how different the western and post-soviet education systems are. In my university every professor knows most of the students cheat. Every student knows everyone else is cheating. Ratting someone out is a taboo because chances (of course) are you are a cheater as well. Professors turn a blind eye on this because they know 95% of the students just don't give a shit about their subject and pay money just to formally get through the education process. But they all value those 5% of dedicated students who visit lectures, pay attention and ask questions, however stupid those questions might be. One of my favorite professors said something like this (crudely translated from russian): "I'll put it straight for you right away so there's no confusion: I know you all will be cheating, so just try not to get the highest scores, alright?" And my philosophy professor just let everyone bring their lecture notebooks to the exam because he knew we weren't (and couldn't possibly be) ready for it. He knew that mental capabilities of first-year students weren't nearly enough for what the curriculum set for us.

[@TheMathSorcerer]

wow

[@rabidmoose01]

My disagreement is actually with the definition of cheating. In every hobby and work project or task I've worked on, I've never been required or expected to rely solely on memory, nor have I ever been discouraged from collaborating or asking for help from others, and often I am not restricted to a single attempt to learn to do something. Personally, as an autistic person with ADHD and lifelong depression, I find it fortunate that the real world generally works this way because I would otherwise be completely unemployable. The idea that things such as utilizing reference materials, collaboration, etc., are considered cheating, as well as the expectation that you may only use what you can recall from memory seems to be exclusive to academia. Additionally, these requirements inherently rebut the "equal opportunity" argument that is used to justify their enforcement: many individuals with depression, ADHD, and other common mental health issues often have impaired cognitive function and working memory either coincidentally or consequentially and forcing such individuals to rely on their impaired memory necessarily puts them at a significant disadvantage from the start.

[@alexhenson]

Interesting, never thought of it that way. I have an autistic brother with severe autism and I'm just curious, how 'bad' is your autism? (what %)

[@rabidmoose01]

​@@alexhenson I don't believe you were trying to be hurtful so the following is intended to be helpful, but never say this to an autistic person. First, autism does not exist on a linear spectrum of severity. Autism is a variation from the common structural development of the brain and is n-dimensional in how it can manifest. This is why attempts to categorize subtypes have been largely abandoned: any support required by a given autistic person is generally unique to that individual. Second, autism is a variation, not an affliction, and most autistic people (ie most of the ~70-75% of autistic people who use identity-first language) take offense at implications and/or assertions that there is something wrong with their brain. Many comorbidities commonly associated with being autistic (eg alexithymia, sensory dysfunction, etc) are also seen in non-autistic people. Additionally, both the ways in which these comorbidities can manifest and the extent to which the individual is affected by them vary wildly and often by day, situation, moment, etc. Finally, in regards to my initial comment, my autism only impairs me socially; my ADHD and depression are overwhelmingly more disabling for me and are both far more common among the general population.

[@rabidmoose01]

I forgot to include this in the "autism is a variation" paragraph, but a common analogy is comparing Linux (autistic people) and Windows (neurotypical people). Neurotypical brains are full of bugs and NT people make countless cognitive errors every day, not because there is anything wrong with their brains, but because thats just how their brains work. Linux and Windows are both full of bugs and quirks that are fundamental to their design. Comorbidities aside, autistic brains work fine, they just have different bugs. A weird irony Ive personally experienced, especially given how common it is for NT people to miscommunicate, is that every workplace training Ive attended on effective communication essentially teaches skills and habits that are natural for many autistic people (eg how to consider factors which might influence the disposition of the listener, how language youre familiar with could mean something completely different to others, etc).

[@oldskewel]

This entirely. I had a head injury and had to take a few years away from college, and in that time my mental health deteriorated. Not to woe is me, but to say I completely understand where you're coming from. While the level playing field is completely fine in theory, some of us are immediately starting with a handicap. If our memory is fuzzy or we can't recall something in the real world we are encouraged to use a reference, but in academia it's considered a sin. It doesn't really have any relation to real life in that way, nor is it a level playing field so what exact is the use of this nature of testing? It seems like a hindrance specifically made for neurodivergent people to overcome, if it's even possible.

[@Feroste]

Lets say we have a doctor. This doctor still often looks up diagnosis'. This doctor is not the same as you looking up diagnosis'. Why? How is it that you're most likely to misdiagnose yourself but the doctor isn't if you have the exact same information? Because the doctor actually understands it and is most likely just refreshing their memory... You however are just reading it and have no real understanding or previous experience to draw from. That's why it's cheating. You need to create understanding between concepts and that requires you holding them in your memory.

[@Padthai_Shrimp]

I've actually got accused of cheating, because the methods I used where not the way the professor was teaching. I was actually using your differential equations course for my diff eq class. It was a 5-week diff eq course during the winter. And the professor was so bad that I could not learn from him. So instead of dropping the class, I took the initiative and learned from your course instead of my professor(Thank you so much btw!) . Luckily I was able to explain how I learned my methods, showing them your youtube videos. It felt bad being accused of cheating. Since I felt I got dealt a bad situation, and when I took the initiative and self taught, I was getting punished for it. So there are false positive out there.

[@ashharkausar413]

How did you do in diff eq's through Math Sorcerers program?

[@Padthai_Shrimp]

@@ashharkausar413 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zoq4mKpji7Gcl80 he has this playlist. its based on zill diff eq textbook

[@Esgaro]

As somebody who has taught high school math for a good number of years in one of the richest districts of the US, the majority of what you said also applies to high school. The main difference is that in a lot of high schools, cheating only gets a slap on the wrist rather than serious punishment. Administrations are typically concerned with keeping pass rates up, state test results, and avoiding complaints. Learning and integrity are secondary to them. Like you said, I typically knew when students were cheating. I only took action when it was so blatant that I couldn't conceivably ignore it. Going through the process of accusing a student often involved going to meetings and getting grilled by administration and parents. At the end, the punishment was typically something minor like 'have them redo it'. It creates a lot of extra work for the teacher, and at the end of the day it felt like nobody was really getting anything out of it. It isn't like teachers get awards for 'most cheaters caught'. If anything, frequent cheating accusations are more likely to get you put on an administration's shit list. So, if I could conceivably ignore the cheating, I did. I was already overworked, and would rather spend the time and effort helping students who are legitimately trying their best, rather than battling with students who would prefer to cheat. I only had so much time, and wanted to do as much good with it as possible. It was always funny when students I knew had cheated came to me looking for letters of recommendation though. Those were easy to turn down.

[@MrGommpa]

Cheating is a consequence of a system that rewards grades over learning.

[@nitirajdaby2554]

So true !!!!!

[@Joeleon2]

There are two main issues I see with higher education regarding cheating: 1) College costs a lot of money. Failing a class is an expense they cannot pay, and could lead to thousands more in debt as well as a delay in graduation leading to a longer time before they can get a job that pays off the debt. Especially if the class is a prerequisite they need to progress, it could be worth the risk to pass rather than lose thousands on another semester of tuition and interest. 2) Real life is collaborative. Higher education has not caught up to current technology which allows those in the workplace to find solutions easier or search for solutions they might not know the answer to. Restricting the use of calculators, removing access to formulas, discouraging finding solutions online, these are all things that would be used in jobs but are taboo in schools. One of the major issues college has as an institution is that it is used to secure jobs, but itself is meant to educate not prepare. It is important that people maintain raw knowledge of subjects without relying on technology, but that is not important for the average person looking for a degree to get into a field. It is important that people understand the process to solving a second order differential equation by hand, but in the workplace you would likely get in trouble if you didn’t use technology to assist your answer. Overall the use of college has gone down for the working population while the cost has gone up, but the necessity to have a degree has also gone up making it irreplaceable, environments like that are bound to lead to cheating.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

I think you're not addressing the root of the problem. In my experience, most professors don't even see themselves as teachers, but as judges. If you're a student, they're supposed to be on your side as a teacher but they end up as an obstacle you have to overcome and we all get this adversarial mentality, students vs professors. The amount of professors that proudly wield their reputations as "90% of my students fail, nobody gets through me, har har har har!" is super high, like, can't they see it's their failure? It's them who failed 90% of their students, not the other way around! Secondly, the grading methods are really bad. Exams make no sense, no mathematician works under exams conditions, imagine the publisher going to the professors like "you have 2 hours to write an article, no books, no collaborating, if you fail you lose your job", that makes no sense, lmao, only your masters/doctorate thesis work actually prepares you for your actual work and even in exams, a lot of teachers are really bad at grading. The classic "your proof is right, but it wasn't the proof I wanted" is such a failure on their part... I'm not even gonna get into politics or how some professors with enough power will do everything they can to kick you out if they don't like you for whatever reason. No wonder why students cheat, if professors act like animals, students will learn the same and the ones that make it to become professors themselves will pass on their traumas onto their students with no critical thinking, of course.

[@jp1135]

Screw the "process". A teacher doesn't need to be trained to call a student out. Just write a note to meet after class, let em know the consequences of it and that you know. Give a chance, AND put a stop to it.

[@mustardofdoom]

As a grad student who TA'd, dealing with cheating was very stressful. To the point that TA's would rarely actually report cheating. It was taken as a semi-legal proceeding as you mention in the video. For international students, it could be a reason that a student has no future to study higher education and lift their family living standards. With stakes like that, reporting was always lower than reality, as no TA wanted the burden of knowing that their report was responsible for ruining someone's happiness and future. It was just like you say.

[@mikemesser4326]

I actually reported what went on un my TA work. But I was an undergrad at a college. (We had no grad programs there yet.) You could tell which students I tutored. One year I had 5 nursing chem students who attended every session I did. (I set my schedule to mesh with theirs.) They took notes. I even had this one problem that I told them would probably be an extra credit problem on their final - but with different numbers. It was a pretty good guess because I was right. And I told the professor (Department Chair if the Nursing program) and why. That one problem encompassed every major point covered in the course.) They all got the problem right. They all got A's. But they studied hard. There was no cheating. I know as I quizzed THEM in my sessions, made them tell me how to set up the problems. (Teachers were welcome to come and sit in as well to see how I taught.)

[@whitb62]

This was a much more nuanced take than I’ve seen on similar yt channels. Cheating isn’t as black and white as some people think. I thought this video addressed it well.

[@michaelsommers2356]

Cheating is pretty much black and white. What possible justification is there for it? (Justification, not rationalization.)

[@SpamBot-ng8qg]

imo needs more nuance, elaborate on the claims made. 5/10 vid

[@jmw1982blue]

I understand the point of cheating being bad, and I myself end up taking the D or F if I’m in a tight spot as to not cheat. But, I honestly don’t find fault in others cheating when a lot of Professors don’t properly prepare the students. I’m talking about the one’s that give work for students to do homework but don’t actually teach the subjects in class. Like if they’re teaching a math subject but give some physics problem without properly explaining the nuances if the class was not a prerequisite. Or when Professors take PPTs from other Professors because they don’t want to do the work the figure out how they are going to deliver the subject matter. Or their PPTs are the bare minimum and tell students to google for more. Or the amount of times I’ve asked a professor to walk me through a concept by doing a ANOTHER problem but they told me that would be cheating. Also, it should be fair game to have notes during tests. Memorizing the formulas doesn’t mean I understand what is going on, but explaining the concepts and/or showing the work of why and how the problem is solved does. Every profession from doctors to programmers reference and research what they need by abstraction through means like google , stackoverflow, or other tools. I understand it takes time to properly make an exam, that’s why Professors are at WORK and students are at SCHOOL. I’m not trying to slam all Professors, and students that don’t do proper preparation are at fault for themselves. It’s just frustrating when many Professors don’t want to improve themselves because that’s how THEY were taught, or are in research and don’t care, or whatever reason that’s unknown.

[@nickthompson1812]

I blame the teachers that give two tests per semester, both worth 45% of your grade. The midterm and the final. One failure and you might as well throw your money down the drain. This system sets students up for failure and severe test anxiety. Symptom of the system in my opinion. I didn’t blame my classmate when I saw him peaking notes during the midterm.

[@lagautmd]

For the teachers watching this, consider specification grading approach (Nilson). It reduces cheating because a fundamental of it is students get to make repeated tries for each assignment (with some limits, if you like). So, the pressure of only having one chance to make a grade is removed. It can be used in nearly any class, but is particularly applicable to math classes. Basically, students have relatively lower stakes assignments that they have to do at a high level of quality. They get to resubmit them. They have 'tokens' to use for late submissions and for resubmissions of big assignments. The idea is, much like getting a merit badge in the scouts, you have to accomplish a list of tasks at a high level of quality to earn a letter grade. Once a C is earned, the student can then move on to the 'B-level' assignments and 'A-level' assignments after that. The higher level assignments can be more advanced, deeper exploration, more integrative of concepts, inferential past the bare information, whatever fits the course. I typically make the A-level assignment either a deep dive in a concept or a 'capstone' assignment for the course. There are many ways, but for my classes students need to make an 80% for an assignment to pass (there are no other percentages, by the way, it's literally checklist based). Each assignment is typically one chapter with homework type quizzing and in-class quizzing. Accumulate the chapters that in my judgement makes a C, and the student makes a C. Then, they often have to do a specific writing assignment that's fairly tightly prescribed for the B, also at the equivalent of a B (some make it a B+ or A- level). For an A they have to do a more capstone or a deep dive into a topic. For my general psychology class they deep dive into mirror neurons and implications for autism and social learning theory. There's a pretty tight rubric for those assignments and they are tough to cheat on. Also, you find a fair number of students are completely happy with their C and the toughest things to grade, papers, are the least submitted assignments.

[@liam1253]

I've had Professors that made it almost impossible to cheat. They let you bring and use any reference material you want during exams, including a computer with Internet access. The only way to cheat according to their rules would be to steal the answer key from their office, which isn't worth the effort when you're allowed to Google the answers.

[@dalepatrick3564]

I think the easiest way to level the playing field is to never have to pay tuition twice for a class. While in college, I felt that It is the risk and financial cost of the risk in taking a college class that causes most students to cheat. I had to take a class three times over because I got a low D on the first exam, but really wanted to learn and did not want a paper degree. I eventually got an A in this class and an A in the follow up class (great class learned a lot only took it once), but I could not stop thinking about what this costed me. I saw most (90%) fellow students suffering in the follow up course, but still resorted to the cheating pipeline. I wondered if laying seige to the material was an oafish approach or even worth it. Three times at three different Universities I brought this up, their solution was to focus on me cheating like I was supposed to give a confession or something, except I was a loner and my small study group never sharred with me either. I think never having to pay tuition twice solves a lot of problems. Students who are not prepped or tutored can sit in on the entire class they dropped or are going to fail and get the best prep and insight on what it takes to learn and pass the class. The collosal financial worry is minimized allowing students to focus on the material not the voice in your head "if I fail this exam it is over!" It puts to deep rest a lot of the incentives to cheat. It puts a higher relative cost on the students that do cheat (90%), especially if it is a prerequisite. Reduces the professors style, preferred topics, pet problems, and tricks practice exam (decades worth sometimes) pipeline that only some students have. I feel I could have done more studying of the material than trying to "guess" what was going to be on the exam. Many other reasons as well that I can't fit here. Sadly, It took me nine years to get a bachelor's degree in engineering, but only two for my masters. In my working years sometimes I did see elements of my honesty come through, but usually the students that cheated still cheat or become "program Manager engineers" that "hate math" I now do self study, I will never get a PhD because of the broken college system that favors some. If all the resources were available for me back then existed today, I still may have gone to college, but only because of all the doors that would be closed without it. Software development would also have been a nice alternative had I known.

[@TheEvvanw]

Gonna be honest, I cheated all through college to pass some classes. Whenever I took a full schedule (graduated with math degree)there was always a point in the semester when I was no longer trying to learn and I was just trying to stay afloat. I basically used it as a buffer to learn on my own time at my own pace.

[@InfiniteQuest86]

Wow I cannot believe people are thumbs upping this. I probably took double the classes this guy took every semester and never once cheated. I got a dual degree in math/cs (not double major, I actually had to get all the credits for both degrees). I also took all the classes for a physics degree. 15 credits is considered normal. I had to fill out a form to be allowed to take 30 per semester. You never have to cheat. I took extra graduate and honors classes. I did an undergraduate thesis on top of all this. I also did martial arts, had a girlfriend, had a radio show, was in a fraternity, was in the orchestra, volunteered, I had to work to make ends meet (usually 2 jobs), etc. This is the worst excuse nonsense I've ever seen on the internet. You don't need to cheat to remain afloat even if you double a full schedule and have tons of extra curriculars.

[@TheEvvanw]

@@InfiniteQuest86 good for you dude. You did the most so you win.

[@dopefreshness77]

@@InfiniteQuest86 you should be content and proud of your own life. Rather than knock down your neighbor. You worked hard, good job bro 👍🏾

[@mrmagoo-i2l]

@@InfiniteQuest86 I’d feel like a fake if I’d cheated. Each to their own but I would never hire someone who cheated.

[@xx_______________xx1802]

@@InfiniteQuest86 wow we’re all real impressed

[@Eckh4rt]

As a Biology major I had to take classes that had nothing to do with biology. And for those useless classes, I for sure cheated on every single one of those tests, never touched the textbook, and did the minimum to maintain a 4.0 for the class. Not to mention, if you fail the class you have to spend thousands of dollars more to retake it. You're damn straight I'm cheating and I'm not going to feel bad about it.

[@263malice]

God bless you. You did the right thing.

[@goddaniel9478]

😂😂😂. Damn bro how did you cheat tho

[@evionlast]

I had this classmate, she cheated in every test she took, every test, we all knew it, the professors knew it, by the time we reached senior seminars, basically the one before dissertation, there were no more testing, so no more cheating, seminars are apply all previous knowledge now, fast, and give resukts, it's s very stressful, and of course she couldn't do it, she hit a hard wall, it took her 3 terms to finally get approved and there was a review of her work, she had a very bad reputation among the professors, they allowed her to graduate with a warning to not search further studies in the university, To our cohort she was the low point, I know some colleagues have rejected working with her a few times because of that, there's always a doubt. I think it's sad.

[@Wowbattlestats]

I tell my students not to cheat above your ability.

[@brendawilliams8062]

Actually when you learn math you are cheating. The experience of the age and the experience of the Professor are something you didn’t earn. You are trying to understand. If it is nothing to you then get you a golden career and be happy with the money. Every teacher has a right to their own classroom and fair rules.

[@AndrewCodeDev]

I think the discussion needs to go both ways. I was in a math class that gave out a review sheet (3 pages) and only the first page was referenced on the final. Additionally, almost a fifth of the questions dealt with exotic trig identities that were not explicitly covered and several items that weren't apart of the review. So here I am, trying to be a good student, wasting my time reviewing material that had no impact on the final grade. Also, the review had typos. We were also limited to two sheets of paper - anyone doing gaussian elimination by hand knows how much room that takes. It was an unreasonable constraint. Fairness implies bidirectionality. When is it okay for a student to point out that the institution is not being fair? Even though I still passed (barely) my attitude towards school changed after that final. I personally felt cheated.

[@LiveActionKimPossibleRufus]

Anyone else have teachers that ramped up the difficulty of thier tests online a ton during covid, because they were expecting everyone to be cheating? I swear it's so demoralizing trying your absolute hardest and know everyone around you is cheating, and you're being punished for not cheating because the teacher had to make the test harder.

[@Nofxthepirate]

In my Software Engineering classes we've actually had more problems with copying work on assignments than cheating during tests. This probably happens less in math since the path to the answer is usually very similar for everyone, but in one of my software classes there were some issues this term with other students cheating on their labs. We were allowed to work together on labs which naturally makes our code look somewhat similar, but the thing that the professor noticed was that there were students who had no idea how to do the lab during the help session Tuesday night, but somehow have a "mostly correct" lab when it was due at midnight the very same night. The professor realized that it was highly suspicious that several students who clearly didn't understand the lab would suddenly have mostly-correct labs that all looked very similar just a couple hours later. The professor basically gave the whole class a blanket warning that if he saw that kind of thing any more he was gonna start taking action. I assume people cleaned up their act and started being honest because the average grade for the final two labs after that were way lower than the average on previous labs.

[@pinklady7184]

In self-studying programming languages, I have several times copied codes from books only just to learn what codes do. I am always curious about codes. Honest students who knowingly copy codes might just be learning, while students who cheat are not really learning or valuing courses. There are differences between copying for study purpose only and cheating during exams.

[@dsgarden]

That's an awful professor. He knows many students are clueless yet does not give more instructions. This is an inevitability when there is not enough information to do the lab individually. Students will find a way around the system, which is why it's pointless to make stuff tooo hard.

[@mrmagoo-i2l]

@@dsgarden Some students can’t be bothered.

[@Nofxthepirate]

@@dsgarden that is not what is going on with my professor. The issue here is that software engineering is hard and some students aren't putting in the work required to succeed in this major. During the help sessions, I overhear him helping several students who are basically just starting on the lab despite having a full 3-hour block in class to work on it with direct access to the professor, and also having five extra days to work on it and ask for help before it is due. He is available anytime by email. I've never sent him an email that took him more than an hour to respond to. He has office hours multiple days per week where students can come in and get help. His lab write-ups are multiple pages long with detailed instructions on how to do the labs, and he also holds a 2-hour evening study session the night the Lab is due to give people even more opportunities for help. It's not his fault that software engineering is hard. He tries extremely hard to help students. I've never met a professor who tries harder to help students because he truly knows how difficult his classes are and he does everything he can to help people succeed in them.

[@Nofxthepirate]

@@pinklady7184 I'm not talking about copying for studying purposes. I'm talking about assignments where there is a complicated coding problem to solve and everybody is supposed to solve it their own way. You are meant to spend 5 to 10 hours during the week working on the problem and come up with your own solution to it with help from the professor and other students. When several students turn in almost identical work after having obviously ignored the assignment all week judging by the fact that they still don't understand how to do the beginning of the first step, something fishy is going on.

[@osama810]

Math exam tomorrow, wish me luck!

[@TheMathSorcerer]

Good luck!!

[@osama810]

@@TheMathSorcerer NAILED IT!

[@TheMathSorcerer]

@@osama810 Nice!!!!

[@icybrain8943]

I was a graduate TA for some data science courses, and the prevalence of cheating really disheartened me. I was quite tough about it at first, but I was advised to cool it a bit by the professor. I can attest that cheating is a lot easier to catch than you think, especially when you get to cross reference the work of the entire class (or when you recognize your own unaltered code from last year's answer key being turned in to you).

[@chesscomsupport8689]

I'm currently a grad student in English teaching a literature course. I've encountered quite a few instances of plagiarism (which is basically the equivalent in our field to cheating on tests in the sciences), and what really amazes me is how stupid some of the methods are. In online discussions, I've had multiple students copy a previous student's response, run it through a program that substitutes words in the original text for synonyms, and paste the result as their response. To any native English speaker, it is immediately obvious that their response was not written by a human. The fact that so many students use this method suggests to me that they've gotten away with it in the past, which is only possible if no one actually read the writing they turned in - that's the most disheartening part of the whole thing to me.

[@Raiden0831]

As a future CS major, what can cs majors do to maximize their learning and succeed? Join the programming team? Go to the library and read programming books? What are some personal tips you can give?

[@joehinostro2459]

She tried to justify it? How?! More importantly was her claim compelling? Your videos are really inspiring to me. One area in math that I am subpar in: proofing. I should have paid attention more in 10th grade math class. Though I did download that free book on proofs that you recommended. I have found in the past when making my own models that I have ran into trouble when I did not do a proof. Hopefully, soon enough, I get to the point where I can study that subject intensively because I really can’t call myself a mathematician until I can do solid proofs. You’re hilarious by the way.

[@InfiniteQuest86]

Yeah you would be amazed. "I didn't know I couldn't bring it in the room. I had it here, but I wasn't using it. Or best, I was texting my mom, not trying to look something up on my phone that isn't allowed to be out." Yeah you chose this test to text your mom. Ok. Knowing you'd get a 0 if you are caught. Ok.

[@bowhunter8532]

Trying to justify when you get caught is just silly.

[@zestotemp]

At my school, in the engineering program, “cheating” was only possible on exams-and written lab reports I guess, if you copy-pasted someone else’s data and words. Working in groups on homework sets was heavily encouraged. Looking up help on the internet was encouraged. Finding the solution key was rendered impossible by altering the textbook’s exercises. The courseload would have been impossible otherwise. Whether this was comparing answers, trading answers (I do evens, you do odds) or the occasional ‘bro send me pics of your answers.’ The thing is, the exams and lab reports were HARD. The homework sets were drills to make you learn the material. If you wanted to copy on all of them, you would fail the exam. This system really worked. The rules should be that everything is fair game unless explicitly forbidden.

[@jose152171]

Most of my Engineering courses have been the same. Some classes don’t even assign graded hw, just practice problems and if you did them you did very well in the exam

[@swause7930]

I'm going to be honest as a person who has cheated for at least 50% of his high school exams and never got caught. The reason most people cheat is just because it's so easy compared to studying and if you cheat "correctly" the risk is so small that not cheating almost feels like a handicap

[@jetkaneshiro1754]

just curious, how do u cheat discretely enough to get away w it consistancy

[@JeremySmith-wc4lh]

@@jetkaneshiro1754 Do things that aren't explicitly forbidden or defined as cheating; thing within the gray boundary between cheating and not cheating, that could be an honest miscommunication or misunderstanding. For example, if calculators are allowed on a physics test, you can put notes/equations inside the programs folder on many graphing calculators. Also, it would be difficult for a teacher to notice notes on a tiny calculator screen that you can easily click off of in a couple seconds.

[@ChristopherEvenstar]

I feel like the general attitude toward competition makes cheating weird. It feels like it depends on the goal for the class. If the goal is to introduce students to some topic, then who cares about cheating. If the goal is to demonstrate proficiency for some job or task, then cheating is a big deal, such as cheating on a driver's exam.

[@KaiCrafted]

If we think of cheating as using an unfair advantage then we should ask how much of an advantage is unfair- are childless students cheating because the parent sitting to their right has more responsibilities? What if the parent to their left can afford childcare- are they cheating too? If someone has an excellent memory are they cheating the person with a poor memory? Are tutored students cheating their classmates who can't afford tutoring? Are students with ada accommodations cheating? We need standards, sure, but more inclusive standards that don't benefit wealthy and neurotypical people exclusively.

[@KaiCrafted]

While I'm ranting on the subject: how often do we ask why students cheat? Is it because they didn't want to do the work or is it because they're so ridden with anxiety over the outcome of a test that they're willing to gamble their education on it? Both happen

[@Th3EnterNal]

@@KaiCrafted "neurotypical"

[@KaiCrafted]

@@Th3EnterNal "yes?"

[@Th3EnterNal]

@@KaiCrafted you mean mentally healthy people.

[@KaiCrafted]

@@Th3EnterNal I do? Why do I mean that?

[@basqye9]

Cheating always hurts the student, either in the short term or in the long run. However, I want to share the flip side of the equation. When I took the GRE, the proctors were so oppressive that the experience felt akin to visiting someone in jail. Body searches, glasses exams, timed absences from work-station, etc. I left feeling cynical and disjointed rather than optimistic about my future. We should all do better.

[@yeahdudex]

if students didn't cheat so goddam much, they wouldn't have to resort to this

[@bowhunter8532]

I disagree. I used to 'cheat' on tests. I found interesting and innovative ways to cheat on tests. It did me zero harm. This was years ago before smart phones. Sometimes in the process of creating the cheat, you learned the material anyway. Bottom line is 70-80% of the stuff I learned in college was useless anyway. So doing long term damage? I don't think so for the majority of people. When you work in the real world you have access to what you need for your job (for most jobs anyway). You really think as an engineer you have to memorize everything and you can't look anything up ever? Give me a break....

[@burrito1413]

@@bowhunter8532 100% agree, if you get caught cheating you deserve to be caught

[@SirenXD.]

Heavy disagree. People always say cheating hurts the student, but it literally doesn't unless you get caught or need to take a follow-up class that you can't cheat on. I cheat in every class not related to my major. I do not care for the content of the course, but am required to take it for my degree despite it being unrelated to my major. I don't need to cheat for the classes related to my major because I'm interested in them. The other classes are just an obstacle, and I don't care about them enough that I'd rather just cheat so I don't need to pay to take them again if I fail.

[@bowhunter8532]

@@SirenXD. Yep...I literally remember nothing from all the gen ED courses I had to take in college. They were all worthless.

[@jetlagged3645]

If failing didn't carry the negative consequences it does (at least in the US being kicked from your degree, needing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on another semester, family consequences) people wouldn't need to feel like they need to win by any means necessary. It is a product of the times where you *cannot* fail or you get so far behind in life that getting "convicted" of cheating has functionally the same result as failing legitimately. I never needed to cheat, but if it was fail or cheat that decision is fairly simple, especially if you are *very* close to passing and you just need to up your grade by a few points and don't think you can make it legitimately you can cheat just a little to ensure you get a passing grade. I would propose that rather than punishing failure in the education system, the system would allow students to make mistakes and learn from them without penalties. Punitive measures for failing create desperation and desperate people will do anything just to pass. Cheating in the desperation scenario is very worth it (in my opinion) because you have little to lose and a lot to gain, whereas having already good grades and cheating to make them better sets you up for a very long fall so people tend not to do it. Simply remove the incentive to cheat and people won't because suddenly cheating will carry a lot of risk and little reward.

[@dinnybam2057]

The moment I stopped cheating was the moment I started to do way better in school. Sure cheating can get you by for a little while but when the math gets too hard and professors take cheating more seriously you are going to get screwed over from cheating.

[@clutchgaming3588]

I know in HS I would cheat in classes I didn't want to take (but had to in order to graduate) like Spanish, English, Health, etc. By not having to worry about those classes I could focus on what I enjoyed like Physics 1 & 2 and APUSH and it was also less stressful/annoying. I don't recall ever cheating in classes I enjoyed learning about.

[@Mcrawf21]

If the institution requires me to take a class that has absolutely nothing to do with my future career goals nor interests, and then requires me to pay for it, the labs, and the books, then I'm not going to be very motivated to play by the rules of the class.

[@amberswilddiaries2831]

I am a computer science student now, and sometime I cheat on my homework assignments if I get stuck too much on a question and I dont have the time to solve it on my own, because lack of time. I dont feel bad about it because in all the exams I had I never cheated and I got pretty good notes, and even if I cheat sometimes in my hw because lacking the time to solve the question I go back to my books even after the semester and re study all the things I didnt get 100% because it is an important thing to me. I honestly can say that if you cheat wisely it doesnt hurt you. It's like if you're selfstudying and got stuck on a question for eon you wouldnt just leave it be, you'll watch the answer and learn from it.

[@luqmanhamdan9285]

I don't cheat on exam, but I only cheat when I desperately need to pass a subject that I fail before because I didn't finish the project required for that subject on time. Cryptography project is one of the most difficult subject to implement, so I hire people to do it for me and ask to comment on the code. I do the same for some part of my final year project because it'll take very long time for me to figure it out by myself. After that, I study their solution and how they implement it. I understand the code and how they do it but I lack the creativity to do it for short period of time.

[@amberswilddiaries2831]

@@luqmanhamdan9285 That I wont do, but can understand

[@foreverskeptical1]

@@luqmanhamdan9285 yeah i feel like in certain fields thats not cheating thats just one of the ways to learn. In the end its all relative, its what you get out of it, many of the best coders i know essentially stitch codes from various online place and call it their own, but thats a skill in itself

[@victorcontreras5703]

School doesn’t prepare you for your career once you have your degree. I studied finance and am now a senior financial analyst and I can say that nothing I learned in school (besides basic finance) was necessary. Just get through school regardless of what it takes. The real learning begins after college.

[@haywoodjblome4768]

I wasn't intending on cheating when I came to university, but I was baffled by the sheer amount of people who cheated quite openly, and even when they got caught they barely got a slap on the wrist. They literally just got a warning and continued with the exam. I myself cheated on 2 classes which I certainly would have failed. I feel 0 guilt because I'm well aware just how useless those classes were for my future career

[@JohnVKaravitis]

One cause is that fraternities got popular not just because of the alcohol-fueled parties, but because they kept test banks for courses. Another is that the "arms race" between students and professors has gotten to the point where you won't survive if you don't cheat (e.g. Chegg, etc.). I've seen countless examples of people with perfect homework, test scores etc., who, when pressed on the fly, couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

[@dopefreshness77]

That cheg wave was crazy. I don’t know if people are still using it but over 2020 I’m pretty sure all of American students where on it

[@bluecollar8525]

Some people just don't do well under pressure. I had a 92 in physics 1. Scored an 88 on the midterm and a 72 on the final. Things change when you're stressed vs when you can do things at your own leisure

[@JohnVKaravitis]

@@bluecollar8525 Your idiotic post clearly demonstrates that you've missed the point COMPLETELY. Good luck!

[@mosh1987]

I mean you say that professors know 90% of the time when their students are cheating, but I think it’s much less than that cause the students that cheat smartly probably are never caught.

[@brycepowell6639]

Exactly. I am a teacher and I only catch people that are bad at cheating. Like if you copy answers that are wrong, dead giveaway. If two bright students that are engaged in my class and work really hard cheat I’ll never know.

[@MMMHOTCHEEZE]

When I choose to cheat in classes I don't like I intentionally get problems wrong to not look suspicious.

[@hubomba]

A lot of people mentioned looking up solutions for homework problems below as instances of cheating but I wouldn't really consider looking up solutions cheating in math classes since they are mostly all structured such that the exams are worth all or almost all of your grade. If a student is copying solutions blindly instead of taking time to do the exercises and only using the solutions as an absolute last resort ( wherein the student would have already put in the work for their own learning as the professor intended ), they will pocket a nice grade for the 10% or less their homework is worth, but they will not do well on the exams. If someone gets an A in a class with great exam performances but also looked up solutions for the homework either as a check for themselves or being hardstuck, they almost certainly earned the A and learned the material as intended. So that potential issue takes care of itself.

[@TheEvvanw]

I completely agree. I firmly believe all student should aim to get as many pts on the homework as possible as there is so much time to do it. So however that gets done is how it gets done. The reworking of the problems and doing extra problems is how one ensures a good grade on the exam

[@statisticserinokripperino]

I'm just gonna say that on many of my homeworks where I had had absolutely no idea how to approach a problem, googling a solution and analysing the steps had helped me to solve similar problems and even approach more complex ones

[@GhostKing6790]

Completely agree to this too. In higher math it's almost impossible to cheat unless you find the textbook answers or something. There are questions that are unsolvable using online calculators and whatever. However, using Desmos and Symbolab has helped me understand the concept and teach myself how to practically do the problem and visualize it, infinitely more than my professor's shitty 10 min 480p lecture.

[@kilian8250]

I fully agree with this.

[@stevenjames5874]

In math specifically, I have benefitted immensely from being given more tools to use on exams and quizzes due to the online learning environment. We were allowed to use notes on tests. I have a MUCH more thorough understanding of the material as a result, because I reflect after the tests. School is supposed to be about learning the material, so going too far in one direction or the other is just hurtful either way.

[@roma5869]

In the current educational system, you’d be hard pressed to find a college student who hasn’t cheated at least once throughout their academic career. It’s a dog eat dog world, and cheating is just a way for the individual to level the playing field. If we want to eradicate cheating from our educational system, we need to change the entire system.

[@nicos1097]

I had a teacher that said, “There is no such thing as cheating. It is only good reconnaissance.”

[@andrescientos]

Some professors can be tricky. I recall 3 other students and I pretty much "ran the clock" because we couldn't figure out how to solve one of the questions on one of our exams. Once our time ran out, the professor asked the 4 of us if we were all stuck on "Number 3", which we all agreed to. She then revealed that it was written wrong, and gave us the correct wording, and allowed us to finish. It was one of those pesky Gaussian Elimination with Back Substitution word problems, where 3 separate items were bought at a certain price and totaled a certain value, and we had to figure out how many of each type were purchased. Everyone who finished early went home must've guessed, and they likely got it wrong. This professor would do all sorts of things like that. On one exam, a problem didn't have a correct answer. I ended up just choosing the choice that reflected the correct Holes of a rat-function and managed to get credit for it. I remember she worded one exam like: "What is the inverse of [function] restricted to its domain?" I wrote the domain, (-oo, oo) as the answer, instead of writing the actual inversed function on the little line. When I got the test back, she circled the correct answer I wrote in green, the inversed function, and crossed out my domain answer in red. At the end of the semester, she did give us points for those exams, and I suspected she would, but many were discouraged, and towards the end of the semester, about 7 of us finished the course. I wasn't discouraged only because I had some "hunch" that she was being picky just as a way to gauge us, but I feel a lot of students were discouraged. This professor is an honors math teacher at a local high school, and she constantly said things like "Well, my high schoolers prefer to do things..." like this and that.

[@NickHuntingtonKlein]

I'm a professor and this is all absolutely true. Over the years I've only ever actually reported a small handful of students for cheating, but it's very easy to see when someone is cheating on an assignment, and I've seen it waaaay more times than I've reported it. It's often something that I wouldn't actually be able to *prove*, but *I* know.

[@TheMathSorcerer]

👍

[@HarryJohnson69]

I really appreciate the context of this conversation. So many students at my university always speak about the morality behind cheating when I’ve always felt that the STRONG incentive behind why people do it should always be the main discussion. If the incentive to cheat wasn’t so strong, without a doubt, there’d be less people doing it

[@iustinatraistaru7331]

I believe that people care about their grades,either for a scholarship or just because they want to look smart.I guess that whatever the reason they do it,it just cause more stress and self doubt.From that moment,they get desperate and see cheating as the only choice they can make.

[@jkbrown5496]

As Paul Graham wrote in his 2019 essay, 'The Lesson to Unlearn', the incentive of schooling is passing the test, not real learning (or education). So students learn to hack the test/teacher, some resort to cheating. It's gameshow knowledge for the most case. For most, whether you remember anything a month after the test, no one cares. Of course, math, engineering, Physics, etc. they student may need to remember the material.

[@suzankadri729]

Cheating is treating the symptom and not the cause

[@PorscheJon]

I think it's quite simple why people cheat. They simply cannot afford to fail. There isnt enough time or money to do so.

[@Hierax415]

I finished school in 2007 but had to go back for a 2-year program in accounting in 2016. Without exaggeration, at LEAST 70% of my financial accounting classmates were cheating on projects or by having access to previous years' exams that were supposed to be confidential. It was so bad that one of the student tutors was straight up handing out copies of CPA finals from previous years. I fought the good fight and struggled for my first year but by year two I just said fk it and joined the party. Took me till I was almost 30 to realize life is a competition and a big part of that competition (way bigger than your actual individual ability) is your ability to network and cheat effectively. No idea what I am going to tell my kids and I'd be ashamed if my grandfather had known. But it seems irresponsible to lie to my kid and tell him that fair play and hard work is the best path to success....it isn't and it probably never has been. I think back on how many exams I struggled through now knowing at least half my peers literally knew the answers before they got the paper and I want to cry.

[@manspeej]

If I don't cheat I get beaten by my mom and I'll end up having to work minimum wage after graduating so I basically am forced to cheat

[@IntergalacticFool]

“You’re only cheating yourself”: False “It’s only illegal if you get caught”: True Some classes,schools, universities just don’t deserve your respect

[@pwhqngl0evzeg7z37]

This could only really apply to public school, where you don't choose your classes.

[@JeffRyman69]

When I took Calculus 2 the professor was Dr. Ralph G. Sanger, then the head of the math department at Kansas State University. To discourage cheating on the final exam he allowed us to take a "cheat sheet" which was an 8 1/2 x 11 blank sheet of paper on which we could write any formulas that would fit on both sides. Having taken engineering drawing I could print clearly in small letters. I filled both sides of the paper with every pertinent formula we had studied during the semester. The review of the material and preparation of the "cheat sheet" enabled me to complete the entire exam with barely a glance at the sheet I had prepared. What Dr. Sanger had done was to give us the incentive and method for properly studying for the exam.

[@husskiii]

Absolutely agree 9/10 when I had this option I didnt need the sheet but it really helped quell the anxiety and encourage studying

[@diogosimao]

I am a literature/grammar teacher/professor. Basically, the first thing I do when I can decide how I will do tests and stuff is to say them that they don't need to cheat because everey task/lesson/exercise is going to be done in group, with me helping them. I think that helps a lot this kind of issue because they don't need to cheat, they just need to ask and everyone in the class wil going to help.

[@jetlagged3645]

If all professors used your logic the world would be a much better place.

[@andrew8658]

I remember in my first computer science class we had very long homework assignments that would take about a month. I was stuck on a part that I were to do it correctly would require many if then statements when I could just use an array. We had not gone over arrays in class yet but I had been watching KZbin videos on Java and decided to put it in. My professor emailed me and accused me of cheating. I explained that I had watched a KZbin video on arrays and sent him the video. He decided that I was being honest and had me resubmit the assignment without the array. I think the issue lies in the fact that many people supplement their learning with outside sources which to some professors is considered cheating however if a student was struggling with a concept it’s much easier to just google a question rather than setting up a meeting with a professor or TA. I never thought that KZbin could be considered cheating and I do not see it as. I understand how a teacher could see this as cheating but I think it hinders creativity as there are many ways to tackle problems(especially in CS/Engineering). Just my two cents.

[@bluecollar8525]

Absolutely this. People want to continue learning and find solutions to problems by scouting appropriate resources. To hold students back for the purposes of evaluation is a huge disservice. We need to constantly be learning what's next

[@jetlagged3645]

The best thing I ever learned in college was how to solve my own darn problems. That means research, something I now do extensively at work instead of rote memorization which will NEVER be a workplace reality. You can't teach this kind of problem solving by throwing homework "problems" at students. Give them a task, tell them to accomplish, congratulations your students are learning to perform research and critical thinking. When I was suffering through mathematics (despite being an engineer I am physically incapable of actually performing all but the simplest calculations by hand) I went to KZbin to learn how to solve problems, then took it one step further and created a tool to solve the problems for me. To do so I needed to learn how to program which was no small feat but continues to serve me well, and the funny thing is technically this means I cheated on almost all of my homework.

[@funtechu]

This video brings up some pretty painful memories from my time as a teacher. Whenever I found that a student was cheating, it was pretty devastating because it shows that you care more about them learning than they do. They are cheating themselves out of learning something interesting, they are violating the responsibility of a university to certify that students are prepared at graduation, they are disrespecting the efforts of their fellow students, and they are spitting in the face of every teacher, TA, or friend that has been trying to help them learn.

[@aspenshadow7920]

Tell this to the kid who picked the wrong major and is now stuck with it because, if he doesn't get the degree, he's in thousands of dollars of student debt with nothing to show for it. Tell this to the kid in the same financial position who likes the major but picked a professor whose teaching style doesn't work with how he learns. Tell this to the desperate and scared kids who use cheating as a last resort. Go on. Tell them they're the problem.

[@funtechu]

@@aspenshadow7920 The first student needs to strongly consider switching majors because it's far better to find out in college that something isn't for you, than after 5 years at a job you hate. The second kid needs to realize that it is their responsibility to learn, in spite of the teacher. When I was in college I definitely had some teachers that really phoned stuff in, and in that situation you need to buckle down and learn the stuff on your own, adapting the resources that are available to your learning style. As a teacher, I put in tons of time outside of class and labs to help students who were struggling, and help find the learning style that worked for them. But cheating doesn't help you learn at all, which is the whole point. It's not a substitute for learning, it just robs you, and can make things worse. As for the desperate and scared kids, one thing I will say is that most students that I've seen cheat tend to resort to cheating because they did not take the time earlier in the semester to learn and study. It's 80% time management and 20% actual difficulty. Especially with more challenging concepts, you can't cram a semester's worth of knowledge in the night before the final exam, so it's important to put in the time through the semester and really learn your stuff so that when it comes time for exam prep you are just brushing up on stuff and practicing instead of trying to learn it for the first time. Universities have leniency and 3 strike policies for just this sort of situation. It's unlikely a student will get kicked out on their first offense because we try to consider the unique circumstances of each student, and provide a second chance for the student to learn from their mistakes and do better. If you don't want to repeat a course, then you should learn the material covered in that course. It's as simple as that.

[@lolwutman]

@@funtechu Recognize many college students only get to *start* college because of scholarships- most of which only last for 4 years. If those students ever switch majors, they will not be able to get a degree. This renders all of the time they spent at that college effectively wasted, outside of the knowledge they gained that will ultimately be useless to them as they cannot work in their field. Changing major is a privilege of the rich, which is a perspective that as a professor you should already understand given you are surrounded by that. Furthermore, "cheating" requires the exact same skills as studying does, with the only change being in where it is applied. You still need to be able to source and confirm information, you still need to understand the concepts as to why that information works, the only difference is when you obtain the information, being before the test or during it. If you cheat and don't understand why the answer is correct, then you not only will have several incorrect answers due to faulty information, it will also be dead obvious how and from where you cheated. The process of "cheating" is just studying at a different time, which is a powerful tool for people who struggle with rote memorization.

[@funtechu]

@@lolwutman "Cheating requires the exact same skills as studying does". Uh, no. No it doesn't.

[@pastorofmuppets9346]

I dont think you should let it get to you like that, i cheated quite a lot back in the day, even classes where i loved the teacher. Its just, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Nothing personal

[@blackwater7183]

The only time I justify cheating is when the professor makes the class hard on purpose for the student's and they love the reputation that their class is hard.

[@AkosiJC192]

Why do you look like Isaac Newton?

[@bsatb]

I remember for one of my Math classes in college the professor said he put just enough questions in for you to know to get a passing grade which is a C, but to get higher you need to apply yourself. I was always confused by what he meant by that, like did you not teach us everything we needed to know? Were we supposed to go out our way and study further into the curriculum ourselves to make sure we passed? Was there just some method of problem solving using what we knew and, on the spot we had to connect the dots with everything we learned without any practice? It was so stupid because if you made one error on something you were supposed to know you'd probably fail the class. Needless to say almost everyone started to cheat or just dropped the class.

[@montyferguson4657]

I cheat because of time constraints. Working a full-time job while taking a class that requires one to read two chapters and answer questions; write about a discussion plus two peer reviews; write your takeaways plus two peer reviews, and take two more tests in 2 to 3 days is sometimes challenging to complete.

[@blobbly]

cheating typically happens due to the fear of something really detrimental happening to them. Yes there are situations where it's the students fault entirely; but cheating typically happens because students are afraid of failing. Schools should teach that failure isn't the end of the world (though I'm not saying to take it lightly) and that if you fail, parents and educators should encourage students to plan ahead for exams and teachers should give the student ample time to learn.

[@bigzigtv706]

“Your professor knows when youre cheating” this isnt the case, been accused many times in my math courses of cheating when i was in fact not cheating

[@schrodingcheshirecat]

Had a girl cheating in summer semester version of Chem II. so grueling as you have half the weeks to study the same material. I was making A's but the rest of the class were actual nurses and had to work, so were making B's, C's and D's. I was going to pull back a little so the Professor could scale the tests. But she was cheating and would not pull back. So It made it hard on the strugglers. the rest of the class hated her. they knew she was cheating but wouldn't throw her under the bus. the karma? a year later she couldn't pass organic chem and had to drop. so she had to change her major.

[@theboombody]

Working definitely makes studying a lot harder. I crawled my way to an accounting degree by taking ONE class at a time while working. Now I'm trying to study for the CPA while working but I don't think it's going so well. The volume of content seems pretty overwhelming. But I haven't tried one of those specialized courses for it yet.

[@schrodingcheshirecat]

@@theboombody that's tough. I couldn't have hung in their while working. I'm not a fast learner.

[@john.darksoul]

> Fail an exam > Get kicked out of uni > Several years of life wasted > Get drafted to the military beacuse mandatory service and uni was the only way to postpone this > Get sent to a senseless war in Eastern Europe Doin' it the right way ain't it fellas

[@christophermccord3316]

As soon as the education system starts teaching students how to learn instead of what to learn then the system will actually be valued....

[@rafaelb.m.4756]

Depends what exactly you are doing when you cheat. I tend to not want to cheat because I feel like it gives me less opportunities to learn. However, if there is homework(to deliver) that I can't grasp after hours (I'm only starting math in uni), I'll ask a colleague whose abilities I trust and I'll analyse what they did and use that as a learning opportunity. Yes, possibly I'll copy what he did (for the most part). But sometimes I can see alternative solutions after getting that initial push.

[@TheCosmicGuy0111]

Facts

[@centipedekid9824]

That's still cheating and I fully support it

[@swinfwar]

bruh that's what office hours are for

[@kilian8250]

That’s not cheating

[@LivvieLynn]

Cheating in college is just a frustrating topic. You're already stressed out as a student in debt while being locked down into a degree that takes 3-4 years of your life away. It's understandable the stress can easily get to some causing them to cheat. After all college sells itself as the ultimate gateway to a successful career. In reality no one cares about your education once you're in the workplace and if they do you're probably working for the wrong employer. College needs to be about learning not degrees. Sadly, until the education system is reformed to not lock people into debt and act as the gateway between you and a career cheating will continue to be common place.

[@gamer-gw9iy]

I do not regret cheating theatre when I majored in engineering. Could it have made me more well rounded? Sure. Would it have cut my time further, limiting my already small socialization? Almost certainly. Would it have made me a better engineer? Doubtful. I'm sure professors of core curriculum classes must have some understanding that not all students need their class in the slightest, nor are interested, and are only there as they are required to be. Especially for scholarship students who must maintain grades, I feel cheating in cases like such is far from shameful.

[@mrmagoo-i2l]

I’ve been reading through the comments pretty disappointed at the cheaters thinking I’d never do it. But your comment has made me think twice, I’m an engineer. There is no way I could take theatre seriously. These majoring and minoring things are really weird in the US. If you want to learn engineering in the U.K. that’s all you are taught. Maths, physics and engineering. If someone suggested taking theatre as well they would probably be carried off in a straight jacket.

[@gamer-gw9iy]

@@mrmagoo-i2l I majored in Comp Eng and minored in Applied Math Arts were a core curriculum requirement, meaning every student was required to take them. It is a requirement in most US college degree plans even🫤 I believe my plan had me take four arts classes (theatre appreciation, art appreciation, music appreciation, etc).

[@gamer-gw9iy]

@@mrmagoo-i2l I've heard there's a similar thing in France, where all highschool students must pick a major area of study, but must all also pass a philosophy exam at the end of highschool in order to get their baccalaureat.

[@kilian8250]

Did you have to take theater as an engineering student? That’s very strange.

[@gamer-gw9iy]

@@kilian8250 Core curriculum required I take a few arts classes minimum, theatre was one

[@knw-seeker6836]

From my experience it really comes down to the pressure of the education system In a German podcast a math university Professor did say that math should most math teaching should be stopped Because his students in media computer science already come in without a foundational understanding from school Therefore most of them fail, either they give up or learn but only to pass the exam while still having no understanding He did say that the problem is that they most likely won’t need that theoretical math in their future job According to the professor Just for the ones who will work in research or academia etc. it would make sense to have math in university

[@fredeisele1895]

Cheating presumes the existence of a game. If the fixed point of a game involves cheating then it will happen. Designing a game without an incentive to cheat is hard (but possible).

[@noobatredstone3001]

Could you give an example of a game without an incentive to cheat pls?

[@Overqualification]

@@noobatredstone3001 Rocket league.

[@Overqualification]

@@noobatredstone3001 Because even if you cheat at rocket league, you still need skill.

[@BrianTonerAndFriends]

My test philosophy was make them open note tests. The way I rationalized it was like this, in the real world we always have the ability to look up basic information. However, knowing how to solve a problem is an entirely different ballgame. Since I taught C++, my tests involved students identifying bugs in small blocks of code, writing basic grammar and identifying terms. Basically the good students in the class didn't even need the notes and the poor students needed the notes but still couldn't figure out how to solve the problems. Class average on tests was 75%, which was exactly what I anticipated. I also made a large portion of the class grade based on assignments, which were open notes, and a class project. They got to pick out their project and had to meet certain programming goals (demonstrate that they could utilize certain grammar constructs). My goal was never to fail any students, grades are superficial and meaningless, but we don't have any other mode to judge student progress/proficiency by. The only thing I would do differently if I ever were to teach a college course again, would be to let the students help design the rubric and assignments.

[@pikupikuseru]

I mean... I don't know. I don't believe that most cheating is done by people with nefarious and ill intentions. These people can be competent, or interested in their field. I think it's done by people who feel as though they were given no other choice, just like how you felt you were given no other choice than to give your student a 0. I don't think they could be consoled out of it, because the truth is when something feels so bad that you can't stop thinking about it, it fills your days with anxiety. You will do whatever you can to cope with it. I'm someone who didn't cheat in any exams or tests, so there are differences in my experience. Despite this, I still feel failed by my school, which led to me dropping out. The classes that put me on academic probation were not classes I would have performed better in through tests-- it was core public speaking related courses. Despite these differences, I can understand how thousands of dollars and months or years of your life being on the line can make someone feel as though *something* has to give. Especially if you have taken on debt through loans to get this education. Imagine the sobering reality that a bad grade on your final would mean you'd have to pay even more money that you don't have. It's all you would think about. Even if you spent the last weeks or months studying, if the idea was planted in your head that you could just bring in an extra note and hide it and rest assured you could answer a problem you struggled with, you might not be able to get that idea out of your head. That doesn't come from malice. That comes from real, raw desperation. It may seem obvious that cheating will only make the situation worse. I more/less agree. But when people are in situations like this, they are highly motivated towards a positive action (doing something about it). Studying, cramming, or cheating, this same twisted motivation to cope with your stress can make you do them all. Both professors and students seem to suffer because of how higher learning is designed. Humans like to live by each other's happiness, and want to see each other succeed. The business side of College really seems to be the source of all this conflict.

[@TheMathSorcerer]

Thanks for your comment 👍💪❤️

[@Kamel419]

cheating is a slippery slope. it was rampant when i was in school, and the problem was once the students got so far behind they had no choice but to keep cheating because "going legit" was no longer an option.

[@jimmyjohn8008]

Feel like there's no real chance of cheating when the professor allows for open book, open notes, open internet access, and its even harder when there's not assigned text books for the class. Had to drop solid state physics because of this.

[@BigJMC]

It’s a real issue in academia because 75-98% of students have cheated in college which is telling. Some courses are not structured well or designed to test students in a way which may hinder their learning and induce stress and anxiety. Plus generally it’s a lot harder to cheat on a test or exam that tests your skill and makes you apply your knowledge and expertise. Some of the tests at my uni have been simple memorisation test and usually you can find the answers to the questions on the internet. This kind of testing puts the general population of students who aren’t cheating at a disadvantage but also pressures people into cheating to succeed the course not because they aren’t capable but because the requirements might be unreasonable or there has been a lack of learning support for the students. If majority of your students cheat it also reflects badly on the unit’s coordinator and all the tutors and the university.

[@mateobalcorta9480]

I have an amazing math teacher who I’ve had for three upper level math course who will be quitting due to dealing with students cheating. Students have lawyers get involved in change a grade from an A- to an A. I’m sooo sad she’s leaving as she’s a reason I’ve been able to do well in my courses but understand that she’s tired.

[@statisticserinokripperino]

I've made many cheat sheets while preparing for my exams, but I have never used them on an exam, I just thought creating such sheets would somehow fortify my knowledge. When it came to it, I just went in with it and convinced myself that my mind won't let me down and I will find the correct answer when answering a question. Really though, before the age of 25 it's of outmost importance that we generate the best habits we can. It is the age before 25 that we form the personality and traits that will stick with us for the rest of our lives. Cheating ain't going carry you forever, one day you'll get caught red-handed

[@Vigosuor]

The testing system is outdated, students being tested on memorization work (which is always available with a click of a button thanks to the internet) vs actually testing people on thinking outside of the box. Outside of school what matters are the ability to work with others and think outside of the box in order to solve problems. If anything, people who cheat “creatively” shouldn’t be punished.. cause those people tend have successful businesses due to outside of the book thought process

[@twistedinnocence8617]

Big reason I think Students cheat is the classes aren't cheap. You fail the the class and you're not only out 3-6 months of time but you're also out thousands of dollars. I'm sure plenty of successful people in their careers have cheated in classes so it's not like cheating hurt their careers. Professors need to learn that this isn't public school where students aren't out alot of money by failing a class. Students are paying in college, There's a difference. You call out a student for cheating and you're potentially really screwing up their lives.

[@praetorxak5361]

In engineering in college all tests are basically open book. The tests are super super hard though. I think this is an effective way of weeding out cheaters. I think its perfectly okay to cheat on homework, but it's never okay to do it on tests. Cheating on homework for some people (including me) helps learn the process and shows examples of how to get to the end. If I tried to do my homework but could never figure it out then I'm never learned anything anyways. As long as someone can reproduce it in a test setting I think that's all that matters.

[@GizmoMaltese]

All tests should be open book. Real life is open book. If it's not open book then you're just testing memorization. And memorization is worthless. You can memorize something and get 100% on the test and then forget it all a few weeks later. So, what did you gain?

[@MMMHOTCHEEZE]

@@GizmoMaltese I kind of liked the way a couple of my CS professors wrote their exams. They were basically split in two between foundational knowledge (no help or notes) and practical application of that knowledge (allowed notes + previous assignments). It was heavily weighted towards the latter (like 30/70 or 35/65) so it didn't even really feel worth it to try and cheat on the first part.

[@user-jo1wi8fh5x]

One cool thing about the working world is you can “cheat” by academic standards. Engineer forgets the formula? They can look it up! Exam culture was a consequence of pre-digital technology. It may have worked well then, but there are so many better ways to test students more practically. Exams also give those who are good at them an edge. We always talk about how people who aren’t good at exams do worse. But isn’t the other side of that just as bad from an academic perspective?