The Sluggish Era of Tall Commander

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

I've got a guy in my Magic Club that just wants to play a bunch of little birds and swing away with them every turn. He rarely wins, but he has done a good job of making sure no one else is too comfortable just setting up for 5-6 turns. Every playgroup needs someone like that.

[@Eckendenker]

Arcades is a more dangerous version of this. I have a bird tribal, but it is very unfocused and can't really perform that role. Does the Deck have any theme and whats the Commander?

[@rayaronitwitchybrow]

Me! Me! Me! That's me! I love play quick, low to the ground creatures that don't use the commander until we get into the later game and I need card draw or whatever that particular deck lacks in the creature base. Catch up slowpokes :D

[@Sean-gh3rn]

I have a gaddock teag voltron deck...Am I a problem or a shaker upper? It's just enchantress voltron, GT was chosen because I hate board wipes and letting people play busted cards like omniscience or 4 drops.

[@EinDose]

This is why I like my Mothman and Thirteenth Doctor decks. They really speed up a game, mostly because they get violent REALLY fast.

[@ShorinRyu74]

maybe he'll love the new golgari bird guy

[@bsuns123123]

Hot Take: Taking advantage of the etiquette of a format to play an incredibly greedy deck that WILL win if it crosses a power threshold, while complaining about anyone who breaks this "etiquette" in order to be able to pull a win out against the death star you're making makes you just as much of a "that guy" as the player who plays nothing but counterspells and land destruction.

[@albinorhino278]

Agree. I feel like these situations are pretty rare outside scenarios like being new at FNM or w/e and getting pressured by the regulars to let them play out their big flex collectors engraved, full alt-art secret lair, psa10, signed by jesus $1700 Atraxa lol. My playgroup really only has one rule for multiplayer games, be it edh or just constructed ffa. Termed it the 'no-bullying' rule where if you attack a player the person that goes next can't attack that same player, idk how common it is to use but it allows for pretty even pressure of players board-states and also encourages people to attack more often knowing they get some breathing room if they become the big bad of the table. I'm sure there are nuances that can be taken advantage of with it but we don't care that much to meta tf out of it lol.

[@gnogara]

That is exactly what I did. I had combos and stax decks that everyone complained. Then I just said fuck it, built a Maelstrom Wanderer where the average CMC of the deck is 5, mulligan aggressively for ramp, win after farting around doing nothing but ramp for 7 turns

[@vileluca]

Smol bean syndrome.

[@Eckendenker]

I will pull out my Counterspell deck against that guy :D Finally a worthy target

[@laurentrobitaille2204]

@@albinorhino278 You forgot the part about the Atraxa card being made of pure gold.

[@maxtyler8993]

"we're making 4 more commander precons with new playstyles!" >Looks inside >All value engine tribe

[@milii113]

This is my biggest gripe with a lot of commander decks, precon or not. If your commander and just generally your deck theme is generically valuable pieces then, while that can be fun for some, you're also just not interacting with the core of what commander allows. I do get it's appeal especially in getting people into magic, but commanders like the new Valgavoth just sort of generating value by existing will always feel boring to play and play against personally.

[@DiviNazuphus]

@@milii113 My favorite deck I ever played was charms. It was a 5 color deck with Child of Alara as my commander and nearly only permanent. Most of the rest of the deck is the various charm cycles. It was the most interactive deck I played with the most choices available to me TO interact with. And have Child of Alara allowed me to have a board wipe blocker that I could also just kill with a charm spell to wipe the board. That deck was great. Super cheap too.

[@maxtyler8993]

@@milii113 There's one player at the LGS, who I don't hate, but often they go "why are you targeting me, I'm not doing anything!" When their value engine is running at max power every turn

[@fdtori]

@@maxtyler8993 Yeah I feel you... and they also complain when you're trying to point out to other players how threatening their board state is becoming!

[@curtmantle6554]

​@@DiviNazuphus I'm interested now. What were its wincons? Do you have a list?

[@Fireball_Phoenix]

Trust me, trust me, I'm going somewhere with this. For my current playgroup, I've had the opportunity to teach most of them to play EDH and magic the gathering as a whole from scratch. This gave me a unique opportunity, as the only concept of "the meta" was the precons they got and the decks I played against them. I decided to be very intentional with which of my decks I played against them at different points in their learning process, as I felt they would teach good lessons for new players to learn. I played the Wyleth equipment precon against them until they were comfortable with the rules, but the first of my own decks that I played into them a bunch was my Mina and Denn landfall aggro deck (I dropped a paragraph about it in your aggro video lol). The first lesson they learned was precisely how fast a player will die to an aggro deck, and the point in the game you have to be able to significantly interact with your opponents before a fast deck can kill you. This was about the time they started to build their own decks, and their conception of the pace of the game was completely different than what the general player base was after learning the game playing against my Mina and Denn. They ended up building their decks around the tempo set by my aggro deck. As a result, while the decks were not necessarily aggro decks themselves, they had efficient removal backed by quick threats. They had a blast playing and building them. I will not forget the day they brought those decks to our college's tabletop club for the first time. The tabletop club had a tendency to play at mid to high power, with folks running all the commander staples in a given theme backed by a combo finish. They were reasonable and effective decks, but built on the assumptions that most playgroups had about how a game of commander goes. My friends who I had taught to play had no such conceptions of the game. The next time I spoke to them, they told me how using the decks they had made, they killed their respective tables faster than anyone had been able to stabilize, gain value and combo off. Both of them, against technically stronger decks, and into players that had been playing mtg and edh much longer, had beaten both of their tables by getting under them. It was wonderful.

[@sumanoskae]

Preach. Down with the combo bourgeoisie! I'll stop building dirt cheap infect aggro decks when YOU stop taking 10 minute turns with your Simic value engines without WINNING.

[@N1NJ4P1R4T3]

Hell yeah, great job!

[@jerrykwan150]

You must be that fellow Gorion, Wise Mentor.

[@RandoFromMars]

do you have a list of your landfall aggro deck you'd be willing to share ? :0

[@Werowave]

i wanna see decklists this sounds good

[@Solusist]

I feel like this environment is why I'm so attracted to group slug as an archetype. There's nothing like watching the durdly player's face when you slap down a Heartless Hidetsugu with haste and an untapper on board. I'm about to make this a 10 life format and you can't stop me

[@viviblue7277]

My biggest problem with letting decks “do their thing” is the insane % of the time “their thing” is an infinite combo that instantly kills the table. If I know that’s in your deck I am going to relentlessly focus you down if you look even remotely close to maybe having the combo in a turn or three!

[@shorewall]

Yeah, this is the paradox. How can you let people do the thing, when the thing is gonna win them the game? How does each player essentially let every other player win the game?

[@traycarrot]

Lucky, you die to combos? Most of my group's "let decks do their thing" is cast a dozen spells that all cascade three times into more value pieces. They take 20 minutes, have an unbeatable board state, and pass turn.

[@MrSocrates_]

I wish I was dead by they "doing their thing". My table has evolved into building a gargantuan board state and passing the turn. Which usually doesn't get solved by releasing one or two board wipes, unless all of them are on Farewell levels of potency.

[@2424Lars]

Yeah, it makes a huge difference what the 'thing' is on how acceptable it is. Not all 'things' lead to a win, some are just fun and durdly

[@greatbrandini3967]

Trinket Mage actually addresses this in his video about it

[@casketbase7750]

*Yargle And Multani* is the tallest of them all, and turns tend to be short too. Either attack or sac for value. Who needs combos when you have Big Number?

[@oom-3262]

rogue's passage moment

[@TheEyesOfLife]

That’s not been my experience when my friend who plays it sacs them to greater good and takes 20 mins to decide what to do after drawing too many cards

[@bekeleven]

@@TheEyesOfLife Yeah, it's all fun and games (and fast turns) until you draw 18 cards at once.

[@MatthewProctor]

@@casketbase7750 Big Number good

[@אוריאיזנברג-ס4ו]

One of my favourite decks is my goreclaw deck. Playing three 8/8 before turn six is so much fun

[@thetrinketmage]

One day enough casual players will crack and we can play stax to our hearts content!

[@Bee-wk7hw]

I was introduced to mtg in a commander game with a stax and combo deck and my first group of people were very into casual stax and combo. I wosh more people were like them

[@wobblefoot7607]

preach

[@auberry8613]

​@@Bee-wk7hw It's so hard to play stax control, the psychic damage I receive when someone rage scoops because I have enchantments that they can't remove even though they are in the colours to is immense

[@ufoturtle08]

I wish I understood stax. I am down for a deck with an archetype that’s new to me. I just have never been able to understand the stax gameplan.

[@JDXTHEKID]

I don't mind stax as long as all 3 other players make you arch-enemy.

[@traycarrot]

I've been called a villian for going Ragavan > Magda > Gut and attacking the person who went Sol Ring > Explosive Vegetation > Thran Dynamo + Gargos. Aggro cannot beat solitaire value decks. You basically need to become one yourself, at which point the horrendous, panicked threat assessment from others will have you 3v1ing the entire table. Stax pieces only serve to solidify your role as the target and usually don't assist you in goldfishing your opponents.

[@51gunner]

I got called a few things behind my back for using a little player removal on the green player who put out a solitary 1/1 deathtouch blocker and thought he was safe to ramp for a while. Went down with like 8 lands in play to commander damage from Double Strike & Trample and 13 power.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

in that instance they were right, you have magda.

[@traycarrot]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 It was a Gut deck 😬

[@mr.joesterr5359]

do you play edh on tabletop sim perchance?

[@traycarrot]

@@mr.joesterr5359 nah, idk what that is

[@prometha4592]

it’s so hard being a competitive tcg player and playing commander, I’ll remove a arcane signet or somebodies commander they played out with no protection and everyone looks at my like I ate their dog

[@jmanwild87]

It might just be me being in a playgroup of experienced players but outside of blowing up lands I've rarely had big issues with getting evil stares for being interactive. Generally you only get stared daggers for bullying the person who is incredibly far behind

[@philipmantos2544]

Its taken a long time for me to help other players in my group see this philosophy, "if they spent resources destroying my stuff it meant they feared me and respected what my deck can do." honestly its helped avoid some feel bad moments because you can take every removal sent your way as a compliment of sorts.

[@jeffreydenenberg7101]

do you perhaps live in springfield ohio?

[@TheGoGoat91]

I appreciate that my group has a sort of "no mercy" policy in regards to targeting the player that's more likely to pop off later on, taking people's resources doesn't really end up in feels bad moments, but more in a "should've packed more protection" moment.

[@lracseroom8286]

easy solution: play competitive formats and, IDK, get a job or something. If you have so much free time you feel you have to play EDH, you have too much free time.

[@DavidArcher_]

I'm so glad I have a group where we essentially play CEDH with casual level decks. Commander is so much better when you can lob a counterspell without worrying that you hurt someone's feelings.

[@Sean-gh3rn]

that's not what everyone is trying to do? I want to go hard with jank and really throw down.

[@Jesse_The_Enchanter]

@@Sean-gh3rn”casual” commander has turned into the “please don’t hurt my feelings format”

[@natethetoe386]

LOL dam, you got an extra seat at that table?

[@Ch4pp13]

@@Sean-gh3rn Is this code for "I made a deck that doesn't work and I'm upset it gets stopped by a precon"?

[@tadoriaselan3268]

I love Wort, the Raidmother as a commander because she very clearly and openly states to the table "If my commander is in play, you're in danger. If not I'm going to be doing my best to put my commander back into play"

[@HitanBot]

I feel like that style of commander in general can be pretty bad to play tbh. Snowball commanders get removed consistently and continuously in most playgroups I'm in, so you either need a lot of protection for them or they need to have a good amount of immediate impact. Wort is fine in that regard as it has impact immediately and the synergy cards are cheap but I have seen too many people play commanders that do nothing when they're played other than threaten such extreme escalation that they must be removed. The counterplay to such removal of course usually being complaining.

[@sethb3090]

I've done this with Animar but it works because you throw on sword of body and mind and it's pro-WUBG ​@@HitanBot

[@Interrobang212]

​@@HitanBot atla palani is NOTORIOUS for this. Jam your decks full of terrifying creatures and then have the gall to complain when the set-up engine gets removed. What did you expect?

[@Pallamut]

I've been playing an anzrag deck with precisely this goal, he acts like a semi-boardwipe most of the time ending the turn by hitting someones face. The tricky part was convincing the others that it really wasn't running ANY infinite combo instawin shenanigans despite it being somewhat trivial to add.

[@CountDravda]

I think this relates to your 'Smol Bean' players video. I've noticed that many players find whining to be an effective method of deterring attacks or staving off removal. People won't attack you, after all, if you can make them feel like a bad person for doing it. This likely contributes to the format issues you've mentioned. But a friend of mine found perhaps the best way to respond: when someone whines about getting interacted with, he shrugs and asks them, "So...do you want me to let you win, then?" It's not rhetorical: he lets the question hang until they answer it.

[@bartolomeotucci4653]

Hi snail. I just wanted to let u know that u totaly changed my perception on edh. U made me realize that i was playing this format in autopilot, thanks to u my decks got more interesting and even BETTER at winning against good stuff type of decks. Ty 😊

[@Rule0Podcast]

I've been watching your vids for a while now, and this one really hits home. I'm an old school player; my first pack was Revised, but I took a break and didn't play for 12 years, coming back to Alara block and hearing whispers of EDH. I built tons of decks for a small group of friends, balanced for one another and often based off of competitive strategies like combo, aggro, etc. Jump to 2012, I move to a new place and am looking for games. I visit a shop where there's a three-person pod with two of them loudly complaining that the third guy always wins. I see the commander abd recognize it as grindy control. They want a fourth, so i pull out my Stonebrow, Krosan Hero deck - it's Voltron, and it's fast. I come out the gate at the player who wins "all the time," and by turn 6, i think, I had him dead to rights with commander damage. He passed priority, and then his friend, one who complained loudly about him winning, uses removal to kill my commander before i take out the grindy control player. I'm befuddled, and even make a small case of "why not kill my commander right after damage; then you dont have to worry about the guy who wins all the time winning." The response is muted. A shrug. End of game, he wins again. I pack up my cards, thank them for the game, and go to a different shop where i find a pool of players who came from competitive formats. Heaven. That memory sticks with me, though, and this video brought it right back. You might have thought my Krosan Hero was a zero judging by their reactions. Maybe they thought their friend would be sitting, twiddling his thumbs for 40-60 minutes, but it felt like a real disconnect. In my head, i thought, "he is why your games are 2 hours long! Y'all let him do his thing." Ah well, to each their own.

[@TheLycheegreentea]

Yeah. I'm not a fan either of letting people "do their thing". Whenever I try that, a guy at the table will try to go infinite. Half the time, I play with people I don't know and they have either poor threat assessment or no answers because they are trying to "do their thing". If I have to police every game I play, it's just not as fun.

[@arc-sd8sk]

unpopular opinion: people should not get to do their thing every game

[@wafflehaxxx]

There are so many commanders where their "thing" basically wins the game and the only way to beat them is to stop them before it happens.

[@lorenzo2522]

THANK YOU MY LORD

[@andreacallegari7137]

If "doing their thing"= have a big pop off turn where they win on the spot, then no But I'd expect a deck to be able to do something before gettin aggro'd, counterspelled or otherwise permanently stopped

[@lorenzo2522]

@@andreacallegari7137 good point

[@dovydasgrigas441]

Getting to do your thing is something you earn with good protection spells and interraction. Everything good that can be removed, should be removed. This does get shitty if removal is used on a player who is clearly not the biggest threat on the table, and I'm sure that's where many arguments begin. However, if you play a powerful piece, you better hope no one has removal, or you have protection.

[@rocketiermaster7498]

I have never seen people hate on Aggro, mostly just stax, land destruction, and poison. I play aggro pretty commonly, and don't get focused off the board (I even won one of my most recent games). I think the mindset of people around me are that decks should have to work pretty hard to do their thing. Interaction is constant, and the most focused-down decks I've ever played were Sigarda (hexproof board) and Myrel (my turn is MY TURN)

[@googloocraft12]

I like the my turn is MY TURN

[@solohealer]

thank you for this video. i have lamented to my playgroup that it literally feels bad to go to combat in early-mid game because i feel like i'm taking someone out of the game and not allowing them to "do their thing." the expectation of the ability to "do your thing" is a pressure that emanates to every decision i make, and i genuinely feel bad casting removal spells or boardwipes on key pieces or beating down on someone without blockers. the part of my brain that plays to win is in direct competition with the part of my brain that wants to see the big and tall value engines go off. one of my signature decks is a 4 color aggro deck that intends to curve out on turns 1-5 and win quickly or not at all, and i've been trying to unlearn the fear of making my opponents feel bad out of myself, but it's hard, especially when people are very quick and not afraid to show their frustration when you take out their value piece or set them to a life total so low that they have to worry about incremental damage finishing them off. it's a problem with no solution except the amicable "just go taller" way you mentioned, but i wish there was more variety, and more acceptance, to getting under someone like in other formats, and valuing the parts of deckbuilding that ensure that you're granting yourself the ability to go long in games by having sweepers and ensuring you don't get swarmed, or ways to gain life to offset how much you expect to lose.

[@Volkbrecht]

There is a pretty easy solution to this problem: don't build greedy, plan for interaction. Casuals (and I count myself among those) tend to build their decks with the focus on implementing their game plan, and cards that don't enable wacky combos or strong synergies tend to be disregarded. But that is just plain wrong. When your board is empty, you invite attacks, so putting in a few cheap utility creatures that can be thrown under the bus is not a waste of slots. When playing a commander-centric strategy, they need to plan for stuff like Darksteel Mutation, because that will happen eventually. Et cetera... So keep stomping your friends. Some will learn. Playing games is, among other things, about learning how to deal with defeat. You have built an aggro deck with the explicit expectation that you might not win if your early turns don't work out. Other people may have to come to terms with the idea that control and combo decks are about surviving those early turns, and that they will lose if they leave that problem completely to chance.

[@jackcois6077]

Only people bad at the game or with little emotional resilience/ regulation get genuinely hurt by being interacted with. It's a card game and many commander players seemingly have an incredible overattachment to their cards. If someone gets salty at you for playing the game and interacting with the board, they are the problem. What I've found to help the most in my games is being incredibly transparent in my plans and my evaluations. If a player scrutinises me for aggroing down when they have Rhystic and reliquary tower, openly explaining card advantage good, longer game worse situation gets and I'm trying to win, usually gets them to shut and reflect on how they are acting. Don't be condescending, passive aggressive or manipulative with this, that will break other players trust, an incredibly important and understated resource in commander.

[@testingbls]

@solohealer I hear you. The conflict of a competitive spirit and a friend-loving heart makes it very hard to "do your thing" when friends around the table get frustrated. I've reached the point where I build the decks I want to build, and am super clear about what they try to do beforehand, and then just don't play if others don't want to play against that deck. I don't enjoy facing giga-value-engines if I'm not allowed to throw a wrench into the system from time to time.

[@azelia2464]

This is why redundancy is so important in Commander. If I have a card that does a specific thing in the deck, I'll want at least 2 or 3 other cards that do that same thing, depending on what it is, in case someone destroys it or I never draw into it

[@kaios26k90]

Way back in Dragons of Tarkir, my playgroup decided to make decks for all the Dragonlords, and play them in a five player game. The games that where played where more fun and engaging than our normal games and we came to the conclusion that it was because no deck overlapped in blue and green, so therefore you disconnected ramp and card draw, thus all the decks played differently. It’s interesting to see you come to a similar conclusion.

[@petrri323]

Being “salty” = being “a sore loser”. No one gets as upset about other people just playing the game as commander players do. If you don’t like counterspells and interaction, go play Pokémon. If all you want to do is draw your whole deck and play solitaire you got Pokémon again OR Yugioh for that one. If you want an engaging game with other people where decisions matter and you have to think about what other people are doing, Magic is the spot. But seriously, a LOT of commander players would like playing Pokémon. You’re literally not allowed to play if it’s not your turn, unironically you just sit and watch. Sounds perfect for all the whiny, “my deck has to do its thing or imma throw a hissy fit,” “how dare you counter my win condition that I tapped out for so I can’t interact,” “no one should be allowed to threaten a win before turn 17” people.

[@Arancil]

Different formats exist in magic to fill different niches, though. By your line of reasoning, we might as well argue that EDH shouldn't exist because it's a big format changer _ "if you can't deal with the normal rules, play something else instead of making up restrictions!" It sounds like you and those players shouldn't play together. You want different things out of the game. You could just accept that this is the case instead of being That Guy. Because you are genuinely coming off as an asshole and two wrongs don't make a right.

[@RhaegarTargaryen19]

A friend of mine has a Koma, Cosmos Serpent deck that I feel like is a prime example of the issues you're discussing in this video. I remember having a talk with him about how even when playing my strongest deck (Edgar Markov) I felt like I had no way to answer it that was fun for him -- that the only counterplay to it is simply focusing as much fire on him as possible before his 7-mana, uncounterable, indestructible commander that generates a 3/3 on every player's upkeep hits the board, but getting bullied out of the game before his deck even gets to do its thing, as you put it, isn't fun either (which I know well because I'm public enemy #1 from the first land drop every time I play the aforementioned Edgar deck). We didn't really come up with a solution to that conundrum except for him to play that deck less often.

[@BernardinusDeMoor]

Darksteel mutation and similar can also counteract that.

[@O_violet]

I really appreciate you going through the time to make captions for your videos, it helps me out a ton!

[@Wyldomark]

My main deck is Meren, and I feel genuinely glad that I taught my playgroup the importance of running grave hate (and any form of interaction, for that matter). They had no way of interacting with my "thing" before, so whenever I did the thing, it was frustrating to them. Now I get targeted a lot more with early aggression and removal, and its the correct way to play, otherwise I will plaguecrafter 100 times and win eventually. Two of the guys are known for having some busted decks, "kill me asap or you die", like Yuriko and Korvold. And we all learned its correct to kill them fast when those commanders are present. It does feel bad to get someone out of the game quickly and have them sit around not playing for an hour, but its never incorrect to focus the threat, nor to stop someone from doing their thing. I want everyone to play, sure, but I wanna win too! If you thing wins you the game, I don't want you do it every game, and will stop you if I can.

[@jojodelacroix]

I've got to say, I have never understood how Commander became the so called casual format. Ah yes. The format with the largest card pools; large, singleton decks that are chock full of stuff even veteran players (like myself) often need to stop and read; the highest life totals; the most players; the most complex board states, etc. THIS is the format that is somehow the "casual" format that's viewed as a good entry point for some people. It's genuinely always been mindblowing.

[@TheKarenWars]

Friends don't let friends waste money on rotating formats.

[@bufar]

its the casual format because all other formats are full of players playing optimized decks optimially commander is full of players just trying to do a thing and that thing is rarely winning the game

[@Kanelel]

I think it has something to do with price. With standard, your cards rotate out and then you have to buy new ones. With modern (or whatever other 60 card non-rotating format you care to name) your deck is gonna be expensive, and if you build it wrong, you're going to get demolished and feel like you wasted your money (and then Modern Horizons 7 comes out and you have to buy a bunch of new shit). Arena is free, but it takes long enough to get wildcards that a new player can easily spend all their resources on shit cards and then feel like they're not able to play. Commander decks are expensive because they're 100 cards, but you can make a shitty deck and do fine because everyone else will be sandbagging by using suboptimal decks and deliberately not attacking weaker players. You probably won't win all that often with a weak deck, but you were going to be losing the majority of games anyway thanks to the 4 players, and you'll at least get to hang out with your buddies and feel like you were doing something for a few hours. Plus commander is one of the more proxy-friendly formats. I don't actually know though, I don't spend money on MTG. You can play the game on Cockatrice with your friends and never worry about this shit.

[@ffenoelfa8053]

@@bufarthis! People think plays by turn 6 is fair with toxic to swing with shroud or haste is fun. Will I’m here just setting up attraction with my mid game zombies (dee Kay commander)

[@azelia2464]

Every other format besides Commander is too Meta focused and competitive and I can't enjoy formats like that. Commander gives me the freedom of expression with having access to every card in the game. It's a lot of fun playing Commander and its even fun building decks too!

[@orpheos9]

I play primarily proactive/aggressive midrange decks that present kills (not necessarily wins) around turn 8. With enough resiliency that it can still continue after around 1-3 board wipes. I generally will spread the damage, unless there is a clear archenemy. In the archenemy case, I am willing to at least put them very, very low. I find that in casual tables, a very low life total is a significant handicap and will encourage them to potentially bring out a less greedy deck or build their deck a bit less greedy in the future to not get into the same situation. The key to this pattern is my mindset that I dont need to win the game. If I am able to pop-off and pressure the archenemy or the table, I feel fulfilled/enjoyment in "doing my thing" and dont need to necessarily go the distance of winning 1v3 by aggro-ing the whole table.

[@JelloSloth]

Great video! Always love hearing the philosophy of commander from you. I just had an idea of another reason that control might feel bad in commander: surrendering, or I guess the lack of it. In 1v1, the moment aggro loses steam or midrange gets outvalued by control, you can surrender and lose any time you want. In commander, unless someone has completely iced the game, it feels wrong to surrender as an individual or as a group even though so many games are “over 4 turns ago.” Hope to hear everyone’s opinions!

[@GumshoeClassic]

Especially so when only one person ran out of steam. In a 1v1, once you surrender you can both just shuffle up again and play another game, in Commander one player might get shut down early but the others still have a game to play out.

[@shorewall]

I think surrendering should be more prevalent in Commander, because of the long turns.

[@steveheist6426]

I play a deck that generates a lot of it's value off artifacts, and as a result [[Austere Command]] or [[Farewell]] can just spell the death of me, but you have to stick out the Commander game or else you get a reputation for salty scoops, even though I was dead when the wipe hit. I should play more countermagic, really.

[@yesimchar]

ive started playing more aggro decks and let me tell you, nobody in the current casual edh meta is prepared to stop a combat damage win before turn 7. i play a kastral bird aggro deck because it ticks all the boxes an aggro deck needs imo. a way to win, card draw, and mana adv while utilizing an evasive tribe. even if i dont kill every player before turn 7 ive drawn so many cards i have several of the best protection pieces UW has to offer and theres nothing they can do.

[@andrewpeirce9189]

Oh Kastral! I'm toying with building him 'cuz I pulled the pretty one in a pack, but my version is going in a way more controlly direction, since that just seems to be the way I build

[@Sweetguy1821]

I had to take appart my muxis goblin grandee deck. Got to the point they refused to play it. On a good draw, I could swing out 40+ damage turn 2.

[@charmandenator5686]

I have Derevi birds and aggro is hilariously effective in 2024 magic. I remember playing aggro decks back in 2015 and 16 and you'd often get stopped by interaction, now people just lay down and die because they cast 4 rampant growths in a row

[@2424Lars]

People like long games, they're not building anti-aggro measures cause they don't want to play against aggro

[@charmandenator5686]

@2424Lars people don't play early protection cards (blockers, life gain, removal) because they're allowed to get away with it. If people really wanted long games, they'd want to play more stax cards that actively slow the game down

[@zawarudo497]

I think you've almost exactly hit on a feeling i've been failing to verbalize for a while now about why I don't really like commander all that much, while decks are absolutely different, doing different things in different ways, they almost all seem to follow the exact same general strategy of slowly building up resources until they're big enough that they can kill everyone, and decks that deviate from this strategy (combo/voltron/stax) tend to be disliked by a large number of people. when the thing that I enjoy about this game is the variety of different strategies and the ways that they interplay with each other, a 60 card all in combo deck will play differently against control than it will aggro or midrange or tempo or another combo deck but if you gave me 5 different commander decks and made me play against 5 different tables with each of them almost all of the games would still feel vaguely similar to each other. (I have another issue as well but that's more personal and can't really be fixed, it's that there are a ton of archetypes that I really enjoy that just don't really work in commander, like I absolutely love the play patterns in tempo and burn and traditional control strategies and all of those just *really* cannot work in commander, or multiplayer formats in general)

[@danielsniff6405]

Burn works just fine, you just need to use pingers and stuff like purphoros.

[@zawarudo497]

@@danielsniff6405 I don’t care what the commander players are calling their direct damage decks, if I’m not targeting the opponent with lightning bolt it isn’t burn (Or a lightning bolt equivalent)

[@2424Lars]

Having a commander also makes strategies too consistent, causing the decks to play out the same way every game even when being 100-card singleton

[@princeofrain1428]

I'm in the middle of the two sides presented here. I'm fine with people playing some stax pieces, but not a full on "you cannot hurt me or play the game because of my pieces" style deck. I'm fine with combos, as long as they aren't instant-wins that come out of nowhere (I.e. hope you have on-the-stack interaction or you lose). Voltron is likewise fine, as long as I can reasonably remove your commander with 2 or 3 removal pieces (instead of the whole "hexproof, protection from all colors, returns to battlefield when exiled b.s.). I guess what I'm trying to say is you can slow down your opponents without stopping them, and combo or Voltron as long as your opponents can reasonably interact and stop your win condition too. If big decks can't be allowed to just "do their thing", neither should any other kind of deck!

[@ufoturtle08]

Bigger is more fun sometimes. I don’t always play snowballing midrange, but when I do, I have a blast! 💥

[@salubrioussnail]

It absolutely can be! I built my Radha deck for a reason.

[@Zombi3NinjaKing]

Radha inspired me to build a Twelfth Doctor + Susan Foreman deck around the same concept of 4 CMC ramp into big threats. It's been a blast

[@matthewkuehne5480]

At 2:47 and already stunned. Thanks for your work

[@Kaltes1]

Commander is a game where sometimes something is too much. The fun is finding that amount. I'm in the camp of lower life totals and commander damage amount as I'm tired of combo decks being de facto archetype.

[@St33ldancer]

Id like to shout out a particular kind of deck, the punishment deck. They speed up games with cards that very quickly reduces everyone's life totals. Also, I'm beginning the process of building a commander cube. I think it should make for an interesting building challenge and eventually make for some interesting games.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

if you want faster games play something else. a commander game under an hour was a bad game

[@theunease5541]

Oh boy, time for snail to describe something I can viscerally relate too, that I never would have been able to put to words. Then I'll hear some insight that will help my deckbuilding/ganeplay in a major way I didn't even realize was possible.

[@thomaspetrucka9173]

Literally every time! I treasure this man's insight into the game over anyone else's

[@benklingensmith8201]

I wonder if stuff like battles or attack triggers can give an alternate route for aggro. Because the normal reward for aggro (killing an opponent) is less effective in commander, alternative rewards for aggro (resources or interaction) could make for an interesting alternate story where players are forced to be more defensive and interactive to stop an aggro deck from growing too powerful when allowed to attack unopposed.

[@VyperX64]

I recently built a Phelia deck that works that way. Attacking gives me blink triggers, that can generate extra value. This value can be extra resources, or ways to increase the lethality of Phelia herself. (Through +1/+1 counters, or equipment that makes her harder to block.) I'm having a blast playing it, but some of my friends (who favor the big ramp/draw decks) are getting a bit frustrated at the speed they're getting taken out. I've just sent them a link to this video, so maybe they'll understand better where I'm coming from.

[@ArceusShaymin]

My favorite way to "encourage" aggro is through goad or similar mechanics. You'd be surprised just how fun a commander game can be when you and your opponents can't NOT swing every turn. It's like a Mexican soap opera with all the betrayals and star-crossed alliances!

[@jackcois6077]

What you have described not an aggro deck but another "tall deck". My Dihada legendary tribal deck is very similar to what you describe here. Kellog and captain lannery storm are the best ramp cards in the deck. Neheb, dragonhawk Zoraline, merry, esquire of Rohan and Amber Gristle O'Maul all get me card advantage. But it is not an aggro deck, the play patterns and approach the deck takes is to grind. All my creatures get a bit of advantage on the field, over and over I get wiped and interacted with, but my creatures already did their job drawing some cards, making mana and building advantage. The win condition of the deck is mass reanimation combined with a haste enabler to close the game after Dihada and board wipes have filled my graveyard. My deck sucks against taller decks, my army of nice value in the late game cannot compete with rhystic and similar effects. It's a fun and a resilient deck but still weak to what is talked about in this video. This play pattern doesn't force anyone to be more defensive, it makes players use their interaction poorly because its easier to see how threatening a creature attacking X thing is. Its not easy to understand that the Missbumbleflower deck is going to win faster, draw more cards and require way more resources to interact with. This approach is a continuation of the problem addressed in the video. For aggro to be good it either has to scale like infect, Slicer and Alexious or run stax to delay the cards in players hands for long enough that they can kill. Its why Mono-red stompy in legacy runs trinishpere, blood moon, chalice of the void and vexing bauble. Stax is good for Commanders longevity and it should be used not shunned.

[@51gunner]

I'd like to see what new Battles they print in a year or two, especially if they get added to the Commander-exclusive subset of the set's cards. The ones in MOM can be neat but felt like they were played pretty safe, most aren't useful in constructed and a bunch weren't even good in Draft. If they go in the -C set then they can be designed with multiplayer in mind, instead of being something you slap in front of the player who definitely won't block it. Something any opponent could defend rewards the player with the most aggressive board state.

[@RandomCommenter955]

this is why 1v1 commander is actually a really cool format. play with 30 life or whatever you desire. I play with 30 life 1v1 in paper with my gf and it's really fun. It's always close too, if a deck can do a turning point or not against a more aggressive strategy. it's very fun! And mtgo 1v1 commander games at 40 life are still very fun and get the benefit of 40 life to encourage larger amounts of strats while still keeping every strat viable and you can still very easily die super quickly since you are the only player that can be attacked. so midrange can still kill quickly which is nice. Also for any replies, someone saying they have a gf does not mean they are a guy. women play mtg and lots of us are lesbians too :3

[@gabrielc.4906]

On the topic of 1v1 commander, I've realized that I have the reverse problem as was highlighted in the $25 deck pool section of the video. I love aggro, so my goal with my decks is always go fast. As a result, I often become a threat the earliest and get focused down. But in 1v1 commander aggro thrives.

[@StiggyAzalea]

Ive never once owned a magic card and yet ive seen almost all of your videos. Good shit

[@jacobe9131]

Im so glad my commander friends aren't like this. Hearing snail talk about "casual" commander players' perspectives just makes me not want to play edh with strangers. It's almost enough to convince me to make cedh decks to play with randos, because at least at that level i wont have to worry about timmy getting his feelings hurt because i feel like interacting with his obvious voltron strategy

[@jacobwhite9159]

in an 18 minute video you've distilled every feeling about commander i've had as the guy in my usual pod that only builds mono red aggro decks. Its really funny you showed torbran because that was my first aggro commander deck. I started playing aggro in commander just to put a clock on the game, when you have 4 players starting the game on turn 5-7 games tend to take upwards of 90 minutes. I'll gladly take on the role of the "villain" or "heel" in our pod (even though mono red aggro is possibly the most honest and fair deck archetype in all of magic the gathering). Commander players get 40 life, and a free mulligan to cushion poor deckbuilding choices. I built my deck as a 60 card competitive player wanting to teach my friends about real magic. I haven't won too many games trying to curve out with cheap threats but it turns out making the durdle-y players sweat a bit gets them to actually advance a gameplan instead of playing reactively

[@tartarussauce1983]

One mage, one snail One casual, one cedh Two sides, never to mix One unstoppable duo

[@devinayaz9210]

my biggest fucking complaint. "If your turn is gonna take 20 minutes and not win. I dont wanna play with you man. I could be spending that 20 minutes making a decent fucking meal"

[@superiorsoy]

I feel like you're the only EDH content creator that actually plays EDH.

[@samuelrussell5760]

Multiplayer is also naturally slower. In 1v1 an aggro deck needs to deal 20 damage. If it completely runs out of resources to do this, that's fine. It's already won. But even if the life totals were only 20, a 4 way FFA requires a player to do 60 damage to win on aggro (assuming the other players aren't aggro and are building their boards rather than attacking each other). This alone makes commander slower. Add in that multiplayer dynamics naturally punish a player who is aggressive early since players can gang up against him if he looks likely to win. 40 starting life totals just compound these already built in factors that naturally slow the game.

[@bobhouses2036]

Probably my favorite deck is Valduk, keeper of the flame. No counterspells, no Stax, no hate bears. Just 36 mountains, impact tremors and 21 trample coming to your face

[@natethetoe386]

Basically, commander players have chose whining and complaining over building better decks than can operate in a variety of environments.

[@wolfosaurus8801]

These issues are exactly why I moved to more traditional magic. Modern, Pauper, Pioneer and 7pt Highlander, I’d recommend anybody else frustrated with this stuff to give other formats a try if you haven’t. Pauper is a cheap starting point if you don’t have anybody to borrow a deck from.

[@boppitude]

I love that you brought up D&D in this video. I feel like a lot of people who "want to do their thing, or else" would be really happy and satisfied if they got themselves into a D&D campaign. Magic's a game that's designed to crown a winner by the end, and we should embrace that. And if someone doesn't like that, they should try D&D. It's rad.

[@paullwrightt]

Bahahaha I had a game where a player dropped a hushbringer, shutting down ETB effects. I was the player running a flicker/bounce deck. I FINALLY got an answer to it, and another player COUNTERED IT. I was able to finally cast my good etb effects by around turn 10-12 ish because of a wipe. I then proceeded to lose to a Karn mycosynth lockout combo. I had fun that game! Idk why people hate stax so insanely much, like there was no point in me making a fuss about that single card. It makes for a super different play pattern and I enjoyed the puzzle.

[@antarath517]

It's like playing a game of Civ but the play group has agreed that there's no war so the best snowball just takes it away

[@raficowan8902]

I never usually comment on KZbin but man your videos are straight fire. My playgroup and I always watch and discuss and agree and implement your video ideas. Do you have a podcast?

[@gryffinsyme6357]

brother i think this is the podcast

[@raficowan8902]

@@gryffinsyme6357 Facts - just hungry for more content

[@SeaSheep-tm1hu]

It seems like nowadays nobody knows you can play 60 card constructed with 4 players or that their are casual formats other than commander

[@RegisJim]

This. Back in 90's we've played casual 60's and nothing else. Funniest decks of my life.

[@dylanswift5185]

This plus trying to make actual friends with people instead of only playing with randos. Casual should be social.

[@SeaSheep-tm1hu]

@@RegisJimThere was nothing better than pulling up to the schoolyard in 4th grade with the most incoherent pile of damaged cards held together with an old rubber band and a dream

[@william4996]

Maybe people just prefer commander? Everyone I know who plays commander knows about 60 card formats and chooses not to play, like me. Its just less fun.

[@SeaSheep-tm1hu]

@@william4996 People play what their friends play. Back on the school yard half a decade ago we all played what we thought was "modern" but was basically just a timeless format with a banlist based on "what my friend said". Most of us knew what commander was, (I even had a 2019 precon later on) but none of us would even consider playing it because it just seemed like a waste of time.

[@coldseasons7910]

Snail's knowlodge saving my week

[@sunwarrior25]

Lately, I've been growing bored of the long games where I inevitably lose. So I've been working on speeding up my strategies to end the game faster. Also, finding a commander that makes the rest of the table panic, before you even explain what you're doing, will always be hilarious to me. Sarulf, Realm Eater, is one of my favorites for that.~

[@googloocraft12]

I tried to make fast deck too, but they just don’t work when there’s 3 other player that can shot you down with interactions. And if you put enough protection then you are probably no longer winning fast enough to be an aggro deck because all of this protection slowed you down too much. How do you solve theses problems?

[@Azraekos]

This video touches on A LOT of what I've been lamenting about with the state of the format. Commander being a 40 life format makes people want to find ways that arent aggro to get wins, but will also detest that the format is all just synergy blobs that solitaire themselves to victory. Aggro is made MORE irrelevant because you are made the target by playing the fast aggro deck. Not alot of room to not play a generic synergy blob if you get punished out of the game for playing too much else. I seriously hope people start building and playing in ways that allow lifetotals to be a lot more relevant of a pressure tool. Like, I had multiple games this week where I was WELL behind in life total and board state and card advantage but was still the target simply because I played aggro. Thats not exactly fun for me, and I imagine it wouldnt be fun for anyone in that kind of position. People need to start remembering that fun isn't this subjective quantitiy, its a vital part of a game's experience for everyone. I have ended games early because someone at the table said that it wasnt fun for them, and I wish more people were as willing to put the fun of others ahead of their own win.

[@PALIGames]

Great video. I have learned the best way to end games with aggro is to make to be able to make a pop up army out of nowhere and to be able to rebuild quickly after a wipe.

[@ufoturtle08]

I think control decks have been becoming more common too. Not as much as midrange though. I love me some four player control games In one of my favorite decks, its controlish. My wincon is a 4-6 card, 22 mana-ish freeform combo. If i assemble it, i feel like I earned it. Always fun playing it because it has decent interaction and protection just as a byproduct of building towards a win.

[@jamesc.7216]

Making my go big Chandler deck now.

[@NicyTheNinja]

6:52 commander really is a society

[@Aaron.Seabolt]

Good thing I don’t conform to all of society’s rules. 😈

[@SuperAmaton]

That was quiet insightfull. Sure, most things aren't exactly new elucidations, but it touched on many of the things we argue about at our table and it's good to see we aren't the only ones to care about these things and perhaps why we care about these things.

[@christopheryoung5212]

I vividly remember getting killed on turn 3 by Rafiq and that game went on for at least another HOUR. Luckily I was at my house so I just went to my room and played on my computer but talk about a terrible gaming experience. I've stopped playing commander because I noticed these play patterns years ago. Both the "arms race" as I dubbed it of decks getting more and more powerful or going over the top and just the general level of not having fun. Another game was 5 players and Grand Arbiter Augustin went first. Slammed his Sol Ring, turn 2 commander and I proceeded to play entire matches of hearthstone between my turns where I played a land and passed. It was turn 6 before I got to play a spell (my 5CC commander ... don't forget Augustin's tax) and the game was over before I got to go again. I spent more time playing Hearthstone on my phone that game than enjoying the company of my friends. Experiences like that just soured me on the entire concept. It'd be different if the games were quick, but they never are.

[@Attivian]

Maybe have a conversation with your friends about play patterns.

[@furnace6441]

I hate to say it but if a tax of 1 is enough to hose your deck until turn 6 that is not augustins fault

[@Petronio39]

I mean, we basically just talk this over before the game starts. "What are we looking to do, competitive, pure memes, or somewhere in the middle?" "My decks are somewhere in the middle." "Alright, do you want to gear towards a fast game, or do you want to grind?" "I'd rather play a couple faster games." "Alright, lets play some aggro then." "Sounds good." Then, you naturally find the people you gel with and have fun games with and you decide to play with them more regularly, and things kinda work out from there.

[@Cynidecia]

PSA: Run Blood Moon, Ruination & Price of Progress in every Mono Red deck.

[@Sean-gh3rn]

mono red needs every advantage possible.

[@T3mp0_tv]

im quite happy that my local commander pods are more open to all deck types getting played, rather than just doing the pile of midrange that i hear talked about everywhere. we have people who play straight up mono white beat down aggro, we have some very aggressive voltron stratagies, and at least one nechuzar control list that only cares about life totals going down. its honestly some of the most fun ive had with commander. even with some of the most aggressive/fast decks in play, everyone tends to still have a fair chance of getting to do thing, and it can make games feel more tense and exciting when you come back from lower life totals to "do your thing" whatever it may be

[@sumanoskae]

Ya know, sometimes EDH etiquette can feel like one particular type of deck complaining that other archetypes aren't rolling over and letting it win. Maybe if you can’t have fun unless your game goes EXACTLY as planned, you should consider how much you actually enjoy your deck. I have a Xenegos deck that rarely wins, but always puts a smile on my face because I almost always get to have at least a couple of huge, splashy attacks. That’s not to say I built the deck to be weak, or that I'm letting my opponents win. I'm actually typically a Grixis control kind of player - I like winning. What I DON'T like are samey, beurocratic games with no twists or turns. Stomping is no more fun than BEING stomped, and turtling inside a control shell before comboing off the exact same way every game is BORING. Aggro players: punch us control freaks more. It will force us out of our comfort zones. Control is most fun when you're getting by on the skin of your teeth, putting together the big win at the last second.

[@hueylong3763]

Gaddock teeg mentionned! That alone makes me happy , he’s a really nice commander to play with !

[@mathisgalataud1660]

Personnally, I ask my table to start at 25 life. Aggro is suddenly viable

[@djsedam123]

Play Centurion

[@Sixsquirrels93]

I recently had a game that relates perfectly to this. All of my opponents with mana value 6+ commanders spent their first few turns ramping and playing engines, while I deployed evasive creatures and made dragons with Goro-Goro and Satoru. It didn't matter that my hand was empty and I was running on fumes because nobody could do anything to stop the extra-combat fueled dragon beatdown, backed up by counterspells and removal.

[@TwistedCarnage]

Love this snail guy

[@dilneyavila8127]

man i really want to hear your thoughts about pauper EDH, Anyway amazing video as always, this one realy hit the nail in the head about the way casual commander go.

[@the4bestgame]

I wonder if you're misidentifying the problem here, when I test out my decks, I do so by getting 4 of my own decks and simulating turns with them, assuming each is trying to win and has imperfect knowledge. Its not exsact of course but it works. What I find is that whenever I introduse an agro deck into one of those playtests, the other decks natrually focus them out. This isn't because I hate myself and think I'm rude for playing agro, but rather I get to the stax players turn and go "ooh... if they swing out at me like that again, I'm dead." and so I have to remove their stuff, and I get to the combo players turn and go "Oooh... if they swing out at me like they did the stax player, I'm dead" and so I have to remove their stuff and I get to the mdirange player and go "Oooh... if they take out the Stax player this quickly I can't build up my boardstate and im dead." and so I have to remove their stuff. Its not any kind of personal hatred of "how dare I play agro" but rather that agro demands an imediate response from the table. When you sit down and say "I am going to kill you on turn three." I can't give you the luxary I give the combo player of "ehh, play your deck out buddy, lets see whos is better when fully formed." I HAVE to crush you right away or you win, the other people are the table liekly recognise that as well and so its in everyones best intrest to kill the agro player first.

[@MenaceLendil]

Yeah i think this happens with Voltron decks a lot, even though you can only kill one player per cycle, that player could be anyone so you're the most immediate threat to anyone, even though the other players might actually be a bigger threat overall but they are less immediate. There won't be a "in three turns" if you're dead next turn. Something that works somewhat i making deals with players to not deal with your stuff, while you focus the other players but it can also backfire.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

One thing you need to consider is "Who am I more likely to win against down the line: The aggro/Voltron player if I let them take out the other players, or the other players if I take the aggro/Voltron out of the game ASAP?" Sometimes the ideal thing to do, ironically, is let the aggro person do their thing if it means they're taking out people who you struggle to deal with with later on and giving you the opportunity to go over the top or to stop them dead in their tracks once they've outlived their usefulness. Of course, you also need to consider the possibility of said player having a way to defend themselves against hate when it gets to that point (such as protection spells and whatnot). And then naturally, if the aggro player has their guns pointed at you, all bets are off and you dunk on them like there's no tomorrow.

[@MenaceLendil]

@@TheAverageGuyTAG The issue with that is that you don't know who the aggro player is going to attack. It might be your opponents, it might be you. That's why i mentioned doing deals.

[@TheAverageGuyTAG]

@@MenaceLendil Well, from my experience, unless they are building up a big one-shot Voltron, chances are you won't die on the first attack. You'll be able to gauge how to respond to their threat based on where their attention is and how hard they are pushing. Of course, as you said, can't go wrong with a deal either.

[@MenaceLendil]

@@TheAverageGuyTAG In my experience Voltron decks usually one shot, that's like the point.

[@dontstealmydiamondsv3156]

I'm often drawn to Group Slug. It doesn't stop people from fiddling but it absolutely pressures them to not get carried away. Plus it really helps the game come to a swift end after someone's been eliminated. And I've rarely seen all that much salt from this, but you definitely should build around the expectation that you will make enemies. So I tend to play Boros with all its many ways of staving off ending up on the wrong side of player removal

[@thebigsquig]

The social fopas that prevent players from playing answers to greedy decks is my #1 issue with commander. A big enough issue I'm finding myself more and more disillusioned with the format.

[@wafflehaxxx]

I don't experience this at all, so its likely all meta dependent. There are some people that get upset when they don't get to "do their thing", but with how powerful certain commanders are that usually means winning the game. Obviously they can't be allowed to do it.

[@TheKazzerscout]

Faux pas

[@thebigsquig]

@@TheKazzerscout Phoe Pah

[@bartoffer]

So against the autopilot "put the square block in the square hole" slop that most people have defaulted to, you'll have trouble winning with aggro that doesn't have at least two of explosive spiraling, a means of recursion, and some amount of boardwipe protection. Popular tribes can achieve this - humans, vampires, elves, merfolk etc. Olivia, Mobilized for War is one that I particularly like, where you have an aggressive deck with lots of reanimation synergy, whose commander doesn't draw attention. Aggro without an off-ramp into some amount of midrange things will struggle against board wipes unless it's packing blue counter spells or the W/G boardwipe-protection spells. In the world of playing with adults, adjusting your manabase to punish greedy ones - IE, Bloodmoon, Winter Moon, Fishmoon, etc - would also be a great way to reign it in, but alas the norm is a world of playing with manchildren, who will throw their thousand-dollar toys around if you counter their I-WIN card.

[@Cynidecia]

Turn Fishmoon into Blue moon already Wotc you Cowards.

[@Bryan-T]

15:25 it's rude to play to win... okay. You play giant simic deck, I'm attacking you relentlessly.

[@Victini1734]

My friend had a very interesting bit of insight into the problem 4 complex boards: The lack of non-boardwipe removal that targets multiple permanents. There just aren't a lot of cards like Hex and so on.

[@Moonsault37]

I think WOTC has been printing Aggro commanders that are powerful enough to take on three players with 40 life. Voja and Jetmir come to mind. Furthermore, as an Aggro main, games often play out in such a way that I damage everyone equally, then someone plays a scary setup enchantment, and I respond by snowballing hard against that player. My opponents don't see me as mean because it's obvious that the Parallel Lives or Smothering Tithe is a threat. Just my 2 cents.

[@lancesmith8298]

I don’t quite believe the balance of Aggro to Goodstuff is as good as you make it out to be, but there is one secret weapon to make aggressive decks look innocent enough to let them “do the thing”: Aristocrats. Half the card pool is dedicated to you dealing burn damage evenly for everybody, and the other half is setting up lots and lots of creatures your opponents don’t want to block past a certain point. Garna is an absolutely gross card with this philosophy in mind, and I am mystified she’s not even a dollar to buy. “Let me draw cards or kill everybody.”

[@Robofan998]

This video inspired me to re-tool my Frodo and Sam partner deck into a much more aggressive, low to the ground, tempo deck. Not quite aggro, but a deck that can try to get under more greedy decks. This is partly because of your points, but also because I had been looking to rework the deck, as I had noticed the best hands in that deck often contained a 1 drop mana ramp that would allow me on turn two to play frodo, and then on three play Sam, and have the mana to pay to sacrifice the food. The deck runs a ton of 1 drops in this new version, in part because many of these enable the aforementioned play pattern, but also the gameplan has a noticeable extra mana on turn 2, which can be filled with either another mana dork, a value 1drop like esper sentinel or bonecache oracle, or a piece of spot removal for other accelerators, to try and slow down the resources people have access to. This gameplan also allowed me to cut alot of the greedier, taller cards in the deck, and run lower to the ground engines that I dont often see in other Sam and Frodo Decks, because they are trying to gain alot of life, playing greedier and taller, and instead opt for lower to the ground, earlier to get going cards. Buffing my board of creatures and rampers on turn 5 or 6, and maybe knock an opponent who might be able to out my aggressive gameplan before they get the opportunity to untap after playing a greedy deck. Ill need to test it in a live environment, but Im very excited to try and take what you talked about in this video to heart

[@vwoosh4987]

I've recently stepped away from Tall/Wincon commanders for reasons mentioned above. However, now finding a wincon that isn't an infinite combo has been difficult.

[@vwoosh4987]

My question is what makes a keyword/card go from, bad, playable, good, to wincon? (Outside of $500 cards)

[@maximillianhallett3055]

⁠​⁠@@vwoosh4987 It’s all about how you build the synergy in your decks. For example, Lava Axe is a bad card; I love it, but it’s bad card. 4 and r it deals 5 damage to target player at sorcery speed. I have a Kaza, Roil Chaser deck that can consistently make it so that Lava Axe is a single red mana to cast. None of the cards required to make this work cost more than a dollar. Is this good? No, but is it unplayable? Not at all. Extra combat steps are expensive to cast and expensive to buy. Why? Because _in the right deck_ they end games, but in a janky burn deck they have no place. You see what I mean?

[@vwoosh4987]

@maximillianhallett3055 Definitely some good examples. I guess my follow-up question would be, "Are burn/lightning bolt effects strong enough to build a whole deck around?" I'm trying to build Alela Enchantments. However, everything online primarily suggests green cards. Is this an "unplayable" idea I have, or simply not "meta." (It's currently turned into draw power 2nd Sun.)

[@charliescheirmann2926]

I had a Marwyn elf ball player genuinely get upset with me and snarkily say "thanks for targeting me all game" while dramatically cleaning up his board state; because I killed him after he took two 10+ minute turns where he: tutored for a creature, played a protean hulk, and cast a genesis wave where x was 16. While the other two players were either mana screwed, or lacked any meaningful way of interacting with me.

[@yellowishnesses1138]

People often talk about reducing EDH starting life totals down to 30 (sometimes even 25) to reduce the sluggishness of the format. I have a different idea. What would a commander game look like when each player starts with 15 life? I know one thing -- games wouldn't last 2 hours!

[@shorewall]

There was no reason to not just use 20 life. More players already adds more life to cut through, which lengthens games. 40 life is a crutch that hurts the game and unbalances the card pool.

[@AdeptArcanist]

I think it’d just completely murder any attack trigger decks - nobody wants to just win the game off of damage before they get to actually play their fun combos!

[@lorenzomassoni7556]

my friends would all die from mana crypt. I love it 😂

[@yellowishnesses1138]

@@AdeptArcanist I think the game would be enjoyable for a different reason -- tense, hectic politics. Also, I originally thought 10 life, but too many cards can do 10 damage on their own. Although [Hidetsugu's Second Rite] would be really funny...

[@101stumphead]

I have noticed this exact issue and have now prioritized building reactive decks with small board states. One or 2 big threats, burst draw, majority of my info remains in my hand. Lots of removal.and protection magic and instant interaction is a must. My board is easy to manage, easy to comprehend, and easy to defend

[@grimkhor]

Unpopular opinion: Board wipes are just bad and only are popular because they got pushed by early youtubers in EDH. Most of the time when you're winning it's a dead card and if you're losing you give other players usually a 4-6 mana headstart to rebuild. People who play a lot of board wipes are usually just kingmakers and don't win games it's a net loss that just makes games longer they're only good if they're one sided which is not how the majority plays them.

[@hrdshrdrck8727]

I don't have such radical opinion but i agree with the general feeling. One of my favorite decks i have is a very cheap cecily/wernog deck that will usually drop an asymmetrical board wipe in turn 5-6 with ease, but it just works fine because is its way to advance his game and prepare to attempt to win in the next 2-3 turns. While your average farewell player will just drops the all modes farewell to 50 mins later just die.

[@ashmarten2884]

BW are 100% over rated, I’d rather spend those 4-6 mana advancing my board state.

[@SSolemn]

Most of my decks don't have any boardwipe, and I only run them in decks that can play them in an asymmetrical way, leaving me ready to win or not hurting me at least. That way I do slow the current winner but I advance towards my own win too

[@jakecarlson3709]

I think you are mostly right, but they can be really good in certain circumstances, you just need them to be extremely cheap, one sided, or to have some other powerful effect. I like to run things like vanquish the horde, blasphemous act, organic extinction (in artifact creature decks) and single combat.

[@grimkhor]

@@jakecarlson3709 Thank you for the examples I will try evaluate them from my viewpoint and try to explain my viewpoint. Vanquish the horde and blasphemous act are terrible because they hit you as hard. We're not playing combo because of ethical concerns and we're not playing control because it's not viable in a 4 player format so you will have a board. The board state can be you board is bigger then you don't want to play a board wipe, the boardstate can be similar then you don't want to play a board wipe or the board state can be bad for you then you want to play a board wipe. 2 out of 3 times you don't want to play a board wipe. IF the third case is the most likely a player a deck building issue. Why is the board consistently weaker than your opponents at the same time. The last point about those 2. Even if those are cheaper you still gift your opponents 2 or 1 free mana which just less bad but still not good. Organic extinction and single combat are good board wipes in artifact and voltron decks. They're one sided. Your board state is better then you don't want to play a board wipe and it's a win more card stuck in your hand. Your boards states are similar then you want to play the board wipe to push for a win. If your board state is weaker then you want to play the board wipe. You still have a mana disadvantage but now you have board advantage. This has a spot in decks but you usually would use them push for a win not to change the tides so only a few are enough.

[@agentkhaine2204]

Snowball syndrome is why a lot of my casual decks focus on large spells… that interact with opponents. Instead of trying to snowball, I’ll slam Ezuri’s Predation, foretold Delayed Blast Fireball, Sheoldred, etc all after one another to hinder opponents while slowly advancing myself. It’s a grindy, interactive, but rewarding way to play instead of snowball races.

[@jiaan100]

I have no idea why commander has a higher life total. I'm not convinced it "makes space for decks that would otherwise struggle", I think it destroys space for non combo decks. It makes combo, something commander players tend to not like, a vastly stronger strategy. This is extra silly because combo is so inherently strong in multiplayer that it's already almost the only viable strategy: you need to deal 3 players worth of life to win in combat, but you just need one combo to win. Starting with 40 life doubles how much damage needs to be done for you to win, but combo players still only need one combo. Just totally silly imo. I get that the idea is it's trying to prevent feels bad situations where you die before you cast many cards, but extra health makes the time gap that you're waiting while dead (and games in general) longer.

[@jiaan100]

The only world where i could see extra life being a thing commander players actually like (because obviously I know what they like better than them) is one where all 2 card combos are banned, or maybe looping something more than X times is banned, something to get combo out of the format. I love combo and stax and etc so this isnt fixing the format for me personally, but it seems to be what most players want to play.

[@jackcois6077]

The other alternative is to stop ostracising stax. If MTG were rock paper scissors and comparing to dynamics in legacy (which has a very similar card pool as commander), Combo beats control, stax beats combo and control beats stax. Socially one third of this dynamic is ripped out of commander. Only leaving Combo beats control. In a multiplayer setting Combo/ slower decks poor matchup with combo is even more exaggerated.

[@jiaan100]

@@jackcois6077 stax and combo both don't sit well with commander players. Also you don't need them for the rock paper scissors aspect to emerge: see most standard formats. Those formats are usually just aggro midrange and control. I think that's the better direction for casual edh to go. Normal starting health (maybe 15 in a 4 player game) and a better banlist should get the format there, or at least closer.

[@jackcois6077]

@@jiaan100 For format health I agree with you completely, a lower life total and banning things like rhystic study, mystic remora e.c.t would be great. But commander has an incredibly powerful pool of cards that is on a scale beyond standard. It is much closer to Vintage and legacy, meaning the deck dynamics within that format are much more likely to emerge. For midrange, aggro and control to emerge you will need to ban all the pieces that make a tempo deck and every capable stax piece so that aggro can exist. Otherwise decks like moon stompy and delver will be what emerges from the new metagame. For the dynamic your talking about to exist many cards will need to be banned, due to that its not a realistic goal. It would be much more effectual to curate towards a healthy legacy-esque "metagame" than a standard-esque one.

[@jiaan100]

@@jackcois6077 I'm not convinced that an extensive banlist for non competitive edh is an unrealistic goal. But even if it is, lower health would still move the format in a direction I think most casual players would like.

[@CHEEZBRGR01]

I think a lot of this comes down to the acceptable interaction having become nonland removal and counterspells(and honestly people also get hate for using counterspells to take out threats). It makes sense that these have become the most acceptable, because they feel the most fair when you're facing them. Having lands destroyed, having creatures lose abilities but not dying, and having to pay extra mana for any spell feel more like steps back. But these types of interaction being popular is a self-reinforcing process, also helped along by the type of new cards and reprints designed by WOTC based on popularity. If types of interaction that feel "worse" would be more common, people would simply include more guards against them in their decks, and more cards would be printed that, say, block land destruction. Every deck tech video recommends graveyard hate and wipe, but no one would consider cards 'standard' that, for example, disallow your permanents to be the targets of spells or abilities.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

The fact that playing to win is so easily frowned upon will always be an indictment of commander "players"

[@danielsniff6405]

The fact that playing to have fun is so easily frowned upon will always be an indictment of 60 card "players" Both statements are stupid, stop being so grumpy

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@danielsniff6405 the people I'm talking about who play "for fun" are imposing their social pressure on others. Bullying other people their chance to play legal cards and strategies that they want to play. We are not the same

[@wxaesZKH]

This is why I play Breena. I run a ton of game accelerants for everyone, I pick the player the most susseptible to pillowfort (usually a combat damage focused deck) that I am building throughout the game. Then when its a 1v1, I can suffocate them with damage preventionl and boardwipes. I have SO much fun with that deck. Also, Games that allow every person to have a functioning boardstate are better and more fun albeit slower than combos popping.

[@Aphidae]

My favourite deck to play right now is a kind of deck that tries to go under those other decks, it features zero ramp and a comparably lower curve than most commander decks with three 5-cost cards (one of which is practically on the chopping block), four 4-cost cards and not a single card higher than that.

[@Tibasu]

I've never played Magic before, but this video taught me that if I ever do, I'll never try Commander. I don't want to have to think about "play etiquette" during any kind of game

[@aeolus7762]

I play at mostly higher power tables, so I have 2 decks that have a goal of shutting the table down, but only when those higher power decks are in play and someone is running rampant, which are two stax decks lead by Atraxa, Grand Unifier, which focuses on general stax, hate bears, and removal with a mill win, and the other being Sisay, Weatherlight Captain as a stax Superfriends deck that plays every planeswalker people dread seeing to go for a combo win with Vraska, Betrayal's Sting. My other decks are a variety of different win conditions but they do not hinder players like these decks do, which is on purpose. There is a time and a place for decks like this, and it isn't all the time like some players believe, so I feel like this video was a great decision starter!

[@XavierKaziTheZombie]

If anyone wants to check if aggro is a viable option in EDH, Deathleaper loves to throw Ball Lightnings and hasted Dragons at people. It turns out that double strike is great in a format with doubled life totals.

[@Zarundar]

Unless a boardwipe is asymmetrical, I have stopped playing them. You often spend your turn resetting the table only for people to spring right back up due to the ridiculous amounts of mana and cards decks generate these days. In other words, instead of catching you up a boardwipe will actually put you in the last spot. So again, the answer is to just generate more mana and draw more cards to insulate yourself from boardwipes while not bothering with them yourself unless your strategy happens to have cards available that only or minimally affect you compared to your opponents. This might sound obvious, but I often see people play boardwipes just to check a box during deckbuilding, not considering what that specific card actually adds to their gameplan.

[@andrew3606]

Yeah stopping someone from winning but not increasing your chance of winning is just delaying the game imo, let the person who popped off win and let's shuffle up again and maybe you'll actually get your combo pieces but we won't have to fiddle with the same cards for 2 more hours to find out

[@elisetehhooman4236]

I am very glad Ive been brought into the game with a group that appreciates aggro because gruul is what i understand most and it doesn’t become a bother for me to get powered up some too like they do

[@Zenondikar]

Around a year ago I put together a busget Drana, liberator of Malakir deck Its a pile of 1/1 deathtouchers, 2/2s with a downside for 1 and things like hunted horror as well as a bunch of card draw. Ita been a fantastic meta shifter and one of my most favorite decks to pilot in my 10 years of playing this game

[@Wolf462]

I’m just getting back in magic and building my very first commander deck right now actually. I’m researching and buying cards slowly cuz a lot has changed since the 90’s when I played last. But I came here to say that I never realized how toxic my old playgroup was. It was normal to us back then exploit every possible advantage and crush our opponents as mercilessly as we saw fit. We had an insane red aggro guy, the maximum permission guy- literally we had to ask him permission to play cards, my other buddy constantly had a boner for land destruction and ramp, basically left me somewhere in limbo building early pseudo combo builds with stasis, winter orb, blood moons, vise, mill decks haha there seem to be so many totally OP cards now I barely know where to start!

[@D_A_D_]

I recently wrote an 8 page essay (with three graphs!) on why every casual pod should have at least one combo deck. I think we reached a lot of similar conclusions about the problems with the format. If you want to read it, let me know

[@sarahbuck2506]

I'd be interested in reading that if you feel like sharing. Combo is my baby and it sucks every time I manage to pull off my combo and people get mad because they were going to win on their next turn. If we both could've won in the same turn cycle, them how is my deck broken and yours isn't?

[@Interrobang212]

I specifically made a torbran Impact Tremors / Purphoros themed deck as a durdle buster. It still goes relatively tall, but we're on a dang time limit. Especially with a little group slug like Descent into Avernus.

[@The-ManliestMan]

I love my little zombie guys, most board wipes are chill, since I can either counter it, sac all my zombies before hand if it’s an exile effect, or just get it back later since my graveyard is just my second hand

[@Amonkevin-qo9ob]

One of my favorite and most powerful EDH decks is my Commander Liara Portyr Deck. Because she triggers off of attacking as many players as possible, it's definitely an aggro deck. However, that also means that it is essential that I can't target only one player during the combat step.

[@isaacthek]

I don't play to win consistently in my pod. I've got a bunch of players I'm teaching and encouraging to play with the mechanics and it's really fun. I'm most games, I end up being seen as the threat and either 1) I manage to beat them all regardless or 2) they knock me out while ignoring the snowball threats on the table who then sweep up. Either way, I have a blast explaining interactions and strategy to the newer players.

[@gchrome4577]

Another banger Mr. Snail!!!!! I picked a good time to try and make a stax deck it would seem! :)