The Song That Broke West Side Story

Let's talk about West Side Story! To watch my sweet bonus videos, go to nebula! go.nebula.tv/bigjoel/
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Co-edited by myself and @mothcub (But I added the tunes)

[@ddjsoyenby]

"i know i don't got the right, but i got a badge, what do you got? nothing" that is the most accurate cop in cinema history.

[@billygoatguy3960]

General framing about the abuse of power. Can be applied to any relationship that puts one person traditionally in charge of the other.

[@joelman1989]

Basically stop and frisk

[@vice166]

​@@billygoatguy3960 🤓

[@jarrellfamily1422]

​@@vice166 bruh

[@observer5615]

​@@billygoatguy3960 but a cop is always gonna be a cop

[@LaurasBookBlog]

The smartest thing WSS 2021 does, in my opinion, is setting the story very specifically against the backdrop of Robert Moses' urban renewal project and the attendant gentrification of the West Side. There's no way to fully level the playing field between the Jets and the Sharks, but Spielberg and Kushner leaned hard on the ways in which both groups are disenfranchised, and how the Jets (mostly ethnicities - Irish, Polish - who were considered second class citizens a generation earlier) are encouraged to hate the Sharks (recent non-Anglo immigrants who have been assigned the role of "un-American" as people from the Jets' background assimilate into mainstream American society) by the ruling class in order to avoid any solidarity between the groups. I think a lot about that LBJ quote, "all you have to do is convince the poorest white man that he's better than the richest black man and he's yours for life." The Jets fight the Sharks because they believe that the Sharks are stealing what's rightfully theirs instead of realizing that they're both being robbed.

[@SmartStart24]

💯. You nailed it!

[@hinasakukimi]

go off 👏👏

[@CaptLuser]

good comment. the jets were wrong but joel saying that they’re on the same side as the cops didn’t sit right with me.

[@robertdullnig3625]

True, they are both immigrant communities (I believe Bernardo refers to Tony as a "Polack" in the older film), albeit one of which is more recent and less assimilated. It's about how once a group immigrates, they want to shut the door behind them. The original idea was for it to be Irish vs Jews, but it was too similar to an existing work.

[@WhatAMagician]

That’s why class essentialism is so important to building a more inclusive and equitable future

[@TimothyCHenderson]

I love how there was that side to 50's and early 60's cinema where everyone just looked sweaty if the movie was even remotely dark in theme.

[@brickingle3984]

Technicolor required tons of light and was very hot

[@BiggestCorvid]

​@@brickingle3984 just melting the tin man until he went insane

[@silvercheetah92]

Plus the makeup they made the Sharks wear made them extra sweaty

[@oona3748]

For some scenes they had to dance for hours and hours on end so there's a good chance they were actually sweaty

[@squigg7107]

FR the Jets in the original film looked TERRIBLE

[@matthewhearn9910]

The casting really works too I think - Rachel Zegler comes off a lot younger than Natalie Wood and so her defense of Tony and belief that love trumps everything else is naive rather than romantic.

[@Leafeon56]

In theaters I kept looking at Rachel like. Baby. You are a baby. And Ansel Elgorts casting just made me internally scream "STAY AWAY FROM HER SHES A BABY" at him everytime he was on screen.

[@catherine.marial]

@@Leafeon56 Rachel was around 18 years old when they filmed the movie and Ansel Elgort is 7 years older than her. Definitely intentional

[@thomasstone3480]

@@Leafeon56 ironically elgort is, literally, Baby

[@squashfei8907]

@@catherine.marial oh... well thats kinda gross

[@catherine.marial]

@@squashfei8907 It’s meant to show the power dynamics, Maria gets called a child (niña) constantly by Anita meanwhile Tony is a grown man that has already served time in prison

[@timborowiec]

Something else I love about the 2021 version is that by giving "Somewhere" to Rita Moreno specifically, it turns the song from a romantic ballad into a sort of inter-generational plea for the ending of racism. Moreno was the sole person from the original movie who was cast again in the remake and it's as if she's saying that all these real-life decades later there is still no place for them.

[@Moley-ug6gq]

It was (I think) one of the best changes they made in the 2021 version. I’ve always known and loved the stage musical, maybe I’m a bit of a purist about it, and I never thought the song worked as a duet. It would be very hard to make the ballet sequence and the offstage voice work on film, but I could imagine something like Rita Moreno’s character working on stage, if there’s a director who wants to try it.

[@IronheartvsMiles]

It's about getting away from white racism.

[@theghostofboxes2192]

@@Moley-ug6gq I saw a local community theater do this production last year and during the ballet they had Somewhere sung onstage in a way very similar to the Spielberg film, and I thought it was pretty effective.

[@null9090]

After personal experience with someone in a deeply toxic relationship, I am willing to believe that someone could sleep with the person who just killed their sibling if they acted sorry enough.

[@sophiaako7663]

True. I think if the movie had shown a realistic portrayal of Maria being in a state of utter shock and trauma and seeking comfort in any form, that could've been a powerful and dark story to tell

[@Rich_P_Anya]

That is not even close to being considered in the original work, however. That is your projection on the movie's sexist racism.

[@null9090]

@@Rich_P_Anya No shit?

[@null9090]

@@sophiaako7663 Maybe the next reboot will tackle it

[@thomasstone3480]

tony isn't sorry he's just kinda numb, he's sorry that he's in this position but he never really manifests any serious understanding of his own wrong doing or complicity. maria is genuinely hard to read, but i think the effect is that she has had an awakening, a sexual and romantic one, and she is so drunk on emotion that even negative, toxic emotions fuel it- sadness, horror, grief, lust, excitement, they're all bundled together. there's never, to me, any real sense of connection with tony, not least because the actor gives off modern tiki torch brigade vibes- like, can you imagine a world in which they successfully get away and this relationship lasts more than a month?

[@sharkofjoy]

02:56 "There is no blood feud. There are no two sides. There are bigots, and there are people they have decided to go to war with."

[@Bluejellyy]

Such a great line from joel

[@TequilaToothpick]

Aren't both sides bigots? They both use slurs?

[@enotsnavdier6867]

​@Swoooze Are you being serious or joking?

[@trinaq]

I always thought that Maria forgave Tony far too easily. Yes, it was an accident, yes, he's genuinely remorseful, and yes, he was willing to turn himself over to the police. But girl, HE KILLED YOUR BROTHER! If I were in Maria's position, the last thing I would be doing was sleeping with the guy who took my brother's life.

[@cecilie...]

THANK YOU! I'd sooner kill the person who harmed my sibling than sleep with them, like wtf.

[@Red1Ahmed]

Not just sleeping with him but sleeping with him while her brother's corpse is still fucking warm. The AUDACITY, its so fucking perversed

[@zackeryh250]

Even if your brother was the one trying to kill him? Tony was trying to prevent violence

[@shmendusel]

It's not forgiveness, it's looking for stability in a time of fear. Maria just lost almost everyone, and she's scared shitless. Tony is pretty much the only person left in her life, she doesn't forgive him, she just needs him, needs to feel any support

[@DrTomoe-em7rs]

@@zackeryh250 Does that put you in the mood more?? 😂

[@butterflyslinky]

"A Boy Like That" is the primary example of "sing when you can no longer speak." And it definitely plays a lot better in the 2021 movie than the 1961.

[@Moley-ug6gq]

Exactly. It’s the power of Bernstein’s music that makes this scene work, however far-fetched the whole idea that Maria would so easily forgive Bernardo’s killer (and expect Anita to do the same!). This is what musicals, operas and the like rely in and yes, I understand that for some people it works and for others it doesn’t. Usual disclaimer, of course, is that it requires a great performance. The 2021 film was a good performance, 1961 was ok at best. Also, Maria sings the words “I have a love” to the “redemption through love” motif from Wagner’s Ring. (One for the musical trainspotters).

[@thenayslayer]

West Side Story has been my favorite musical since I was 9 years old, but I've always thought Maria's line; "You should know better. You were in love, or so you sáid" would have gotten her slapped.

[@BambiTrout]

I always thought that line was SO out of line. Like I know Maria is supposed to be naive, but there's being naive and there's actively needling your dead brother's girlfriend about whether she really loved him in an effort to justify having sex with his murderer 😬

[@thenayslayer]

@@BambiTrout my thoughts exactly

[@airtempest8945]

If someone told me that, I would throw a big middle finger right in their face and storm out of the room.

[@TheSneezefreak]

You might be the first person I've seen to point out the clear difference in position between the jets and the Sharks in terms of the racial power dynamics. As a Puerto Rican it was genuinely very refreshing. It's always been hard for me to express it since it is such a beloved musical and I myself enjoy a lot about it.

[@s7robin105]

I feel like its always been pretty obvious so most people don’t point it out but just hearing their theme songs you notice the inherent differences between them and how they act

[@TheSneezefreak]

@@s7robin105 I don't know if it's that obvious. As a native Puertorican this might be my own perception but I think people do genuinely see both sides as equally fallible. I don't think most people, especially Americans really understand Puertoricans, Puertoricaness or our struggle despite us living all over the US. Most analysis I've seen of this movie kind of skirts around the racial dynamics or wholly ignores them.

[@s7robin105]

@@TheSneezefreak Not sure I agree. Again jets are shown to have cops on their side, their music is much more aggressive and they’re the ones pushing for a fight. But different interpretations I suppose

[@TheSneezefreak]

@@s7robin105 I think those are subtle details other people miss. I'm not talking about the text itself but rather how I've seen other people interpret it.

[@baguettegott3409]

Another person already mentioned this, but the youtuber Sideways has an incredible video about West Side Story where he analyzes the actual music, and it also very clearly supports this. You're probably right in that many people may miss this stuff, but if you're interested in more discussion on how the musical itself does very clearly paint the Jets as the racist aggressors, via music theory, you should definitely check it out :)

[@a.evelyn5498]

I always thought - in the 1963 version - the immorality & racism was evident & I always sympathized with the Puerto Ricans, even when I was younger. It’s so interesting to see that it wasn’t as clear as I thought it was MEANT to be. I saw Tony as young & naive, suffering the consequences of that ignorance that still permits violence.

[@drewbabe]

Same, when we studied it in school basically everyone seemed to get the same impression that the Jets were racists and the Sharks were not. But the musical still kind of "both sides" it by making it seem like both gangs are in the wrong, that the Jets shouldn't have antagonized the immigrants but the Sharks shouldn't have retaliated, and that both are equally at fault for the tragedy in the story. Now that I'm older and wiser, I know that's not true, that the Sharks had every right to retaliate and that the Jets were more or less entirely the villains. Then again, we can't expect something written in the 1950s to be able to say outright that the system of white supremacy and the Jets who were essentially allowed to exist because they helped to uphold it were through-and-through immoral and evil, even if the musical was written by the son of a Jewish immigrant who grew up seeing this kind of discrimination firsthand, because if it had, it would probably not have succeeded critically and financially as a Broadway production nor as a movie. Unfortunately, I think if we continue to keep the musical as-is and let high school students continue to study it, we will perpetuate a mindset where people kind of deep down know that there isn't an equitable situation, but the solution is to stop fighting rather than to fight to end the inequity. In other words, the negative peace that MLK Jr. talked about. We need a successor to West Side Story that goes this distance in its themes and message, and is set in more modern times so that people don't get to think that the problem is done and dusted since Ellis Island isn't "a thing" anymore.

[@oldvlognewtricks]

The Jets were originally supposed to be Polish immigrants, and the previous gang they were (briefly) mentioned to have clashed with were supposed to be Irish immigrants… the nuance is mostly lost in the surviving versions, but I don’t believe it was intended to be as simple as ‘white people’ against the Puerto Ricans.

[@earhearthush-up5549]

@@oldvlognewtricks Yeah I’m sorry but this entire discussion is driving me crazy, because joel and the commenters here entire point lies within the conceit that the Jets are like normal middle class white Americans.. when they don’t seem like they’re supposed to be. Like it’s pretty heavily implied that they’re the sons of working class immigrants living in the ghettoes of NYC. It’s not like they formed a gang JUST to harass the immigrants coming into their city, they likely formed it to defend from bullying and harassment from other groups, like most gangs form. So this idea that the conflict between the Jets and the Sharks is completely asymmetrical is something we only get to say in hindsight. Because in the modern day we have the hindsight that Italians, Irish, poles would soon be fully assimilated into whiteness at that point, but a writer in the early 50’s?? Not very likely they would be so sure of that yet.

[@PsiologaLilyValentina]

@@oldvlognewtricks I think you got that right! At least that is what I understood in the original version.

[@xBINARYGODx]

@@earhearthush-up5549 cool, but the police are shown to favor the white people, not the brown people - and this art doesn't exist in some vacuum. You are basically axtually-ing over the white gang being poor white people, but really, poor and white and poor and black/brown are not the same thing (and if the film fails to properly convey something, then its fails to convey it). Also, there is this thing where the art is trying to say a thing, but that's not really the effect it has, like American History X being used to advertise for Nazism (as an example). You know, author dead and all that.

[@averyeml]

This bit always BLOWS MY MIND. Like I understand eventually forgiving someone for an accident, even one that horrific. But he literally climbs through her window covered in her brother’s blood and she’s like “yeah let’s bone down.” I enjoy most of West Side Story but it melts my brain.

[@circleinforthecube5170]

sibling rivalry got heated

[@Forestfreud]

I’ve always thought the way love functions in this movie is kind of scary. It’s an exaggeration of the real world, where you can fall in love with the wrong person even though you know better, but for Tony and Maria it functions almost like some sort of curse. They meet by accident and their entire way of life is immediately doomed. Tony doesn’t have all that much going for him, so it’s not necessarily as chilling to me, but once Maria gets hit by that all-consuming musical theater destined love, she has no say. She loses her friends and family for it. Maybe this is just me, but the idea of star-crossed lovers can start to feel a little like cosmic horror.

[@amystrickland7162]

I think the 2021 script makes it very clear that Tony has latches onto this young girl symbolically -- she's his chance to go be like Doc and an excuse to run away. He feels predatory.

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

@@amystrickland7162 i think what adds to this is just how young rachel zegler looks in general and how she plays maria, it rlly feels like she has this childlike naivety thats almost being taken advantage of

[@fellinuxvi3541]

I think that's the point of these tragic flaw kinds of stories. There's no escape.

[@brianstorm5488]

Except that if he COULD take her away it might be to a better life. Bernardo seems overly controlling and bent on keeping her in her place with a nice but boring partner. Even Anita can exert only so much power against an Alpha boxer / gang leader. One note, Tony is not the same as Riff in Bernardo’s experience, he was not in the opening fight or dance battle with the Sharks, if Bernardo knows of him at all it is the white kid working for the PR lady. He prejudges Tony because he’s white and allows no input from Maria. Also Tony did try to stop the rumble in an agressive way this time in Cool. He was even worried things might get out of hand there if Riff used the gun, which he tried to take away.

[@delcanfisher8496]

You're missing a big part of "A Boy LIke That" and Maria's counter to Anita: when she says "you were in love too / or so you said / you should know better", she's throwing back everything Maria said about how a boy who kills cannot love. Essentially, the point she's trying to make is that if Bernardo was the one who came home after killing Tony, Anita would be the one singing about how she just loves him and that's that, without a thought for how Maria feels.

[@pandakatiefominz]

I mean sure but Bernado is Anita's husband and Maria's *brother*, Tony is just the boy Maria started dating like... A few weeks ago. At most. So they aren't really equivalent.

[@sarahperkins6421]

Murdering a bigot because he will never let you or anyone who looks like you live in peace versus murdering someone as revenge for murdering a violent bigot you decided to be friends with are two very different motivations. No one should have had to die, and yes, murder is murder, but Bernardo wasn't exactly given a whole lot of alternatives to keep Puerto Ricans safe from white men's violence. Bernardo started the Sharks as a response to a hate crime. The Jets could just leave the Puerto Ricans alone at any time, which highlights the biggest issue with this conflict: *these angry white men always had the power not to choose violence.* What was Bernardo supposed to do when he was threatened with a knife? Call the cops? lmfao Tony can make friends with people who don't corner the powerless until they have no other choice but to fight back. That bigot wasn't Tony's brother or husband. He had a lot less to lose compared to Maria and Anita. Seriously, Tony can go fuck himself.

[@cristy4031]

@@pandakatiefominz it’s literally the day before, the whole story happens in like one weekend

[@icymoons]

​@@cristy4031 one of the few things that stayed true to the R&J source material

[@justmeagain4662]

And it would be just as unjustified then. If the situation was reversed, with Bernardo coming home after killing Tony, Maria would have every right to call out both him and Anita; Bernardo for murdering Tony and Anita for still standing with him as if the murder didn't matter and just loving him was an excuse for that sort of spineless, selfish behavior. The movie can parade around the power of love all it wants, but the fact remains that Maria was in the wrong. She had absolutely no right to act like Anita should just forgive and forget what Tony did, just because Tony's Maria's boy toy.

[@henninggirl261]

The conflict for Tony is one he doesn’t even realize he has. He thinks he can leave the Jets, AND still be BFFs with Riff, AND be with Maria, AND not run into conflict with her community. Tony has already had his big arc before we even meet him. He understands intellectually that the Jets are a one-way ticket to jail or worse. What he can’t let go is his attachment to Riff. He thinks he can have it both ways and that’s why he dies. This goes back to why Romeo and Juliet die. They’re trying to please too many masters when the answer was the ending the whole time. Marry, go to the Prince of Verona, force parents to squash the feud once and for all. They never had to like it. They just needed to be forced to stop.

[@Is0lt]

underrated comment

[@BunnyChannel918]

You're totally right, although in west side story Tony and Maria can escape the feud but they can't end it, the jets aggression is just a molecule of the beast, and that very same hatred which is spread all across the US would serve as a constant reminder of the tragic conflict that certainly continued after their departure.

[@bdellovibrioo5242]

Something minor that I really appreciate about how you edited this video is that you allowed us to hear the musical lines to completion before moving on to your next point.

[@BreezyBeej]

I'm struck by how real that kind of racism in the OG West Side Story is to the real world. The way marginalized communities are treated as this monolith because 'oh they speak the same language and they stick together.' Even today, in 2023, my workplace is divided. All the people who speak primarily Spanish work in the same area. You can say it's practical because people who understand each other work together better but the problem is that people refer to them as "the Latinos" or uh... more colorful terminology. I work with them and I talk to them and I know that many of them aren't connected through anything other than how they are antagonized (which is a strong way to bond people). So when I hear the situation summarized in West Side Story, that's what I hear. The people who moved from Puerto Rico are isolated from the rest of the city by people like the Jets and the cops. People slap a name on them that they don't use themselves, that they don't identify with. I think it's important to see reality reflected in media this way as long as it is handled responsibly. As long as the marginalized communities are handled with respect. Not deference, not viewing them with rose-tinted glasses, but just being honest. Also, tangential point here, back on the subject of that one Shakespeare Sonnet again... Maria's understanding of love is that it is immutable, that love cannot be changed and that it should be a source of joy. Anita's understanding is that love never changes and it brings every kind of emotion: joy, pain, sorrow, ecstasy, anger. She will always love Maria but her love becomes a source of pain.

[@helens1016]

Great point about the sonnet! For some reason when I read it it made me kind of think about Romeo & Juliet and I think you put it into words perfectly.

[@drewbabe]

If you talk to them, see if you can organize them. Being harassed with racism while being degraded with wage labor is worse than the sum of its parts, and they would be right to organize and demand that management do something about it-whether it be something relatively milquetoast, such as mandatory sensitivity training and screening against racist attitudes in new hires, to something more severe such as disciplinary action against current offenders, or perhaps even better, something restorative such as financial compensation for their mistreatment. If the racist harassment is coming from management, they could even unionize and sue. If this is the US, there are federal workplace discrimination laws they can invoke. It's not like the laws of the bourgeois state really exist to protect the downtrodden, but courts are staffed by humans and sometimes they rule according to their human conscience, especially if the case is particularly severe. If management is the source of the problem, it's unlikely they could get the owners of the business to reorganize it into a co-op and then leave, but they could probably at least get rid of the abusive middle managers and have new ones brought in who have gone through sensitivity training-all through court order. If you want help getting started with how to organize them, I suggest contacting the IWW (iww dot org) and telling them about your situation. The nearest branch will contact you and help you get organizer training, and if things look particularly hopeful, they may even be able to volunteer their own organizers to help you directly in your efforts through things like meeting with your coworkers to answer their questions, helping with advice on how to deal with the NLRB, drumming up public support if and when you go public with your organizing movement, etc. Here's hoping that your colleagues stop facing this harassment soon!

[@metadata4255]

@@drewbabe I've worked at a lot of manufacturing places with fucked up dynamics and I can't tell if I'm crazy for having never seen a path for combatting the systemic inequity, or if you're crazy for thinking that would be viable for a line worker at a frozen foods production facility with insane turnover and "at-will employment".

[@Robstafarian]

@@metadata4255 You are sane, and drewbabe is hopeful if nothing else (no shade).

[@nondescriptname]

This is pretty much exactly the experience of the autistic community. It's an incredibly diverse range of people who often have practically nothing in common other than a cognitive condition which has a wide range of presentation. The only thing that really binds it together is a shared experience of rejection, othering, and discrimination. Most of the people I've spoken to within it wind up there because they feel they have, at last, found some place where perhaps they will not be treated like shit.

[@sarahpeck1819]

One scene new to the 2021 adaption that I thought was really interesting was when Tony and Chino met each other at the entrance to the factory where the rumble was taking place. They exchanged knowing looks, and then WORKED TOGETHER to lift the door in order to join their respective sides for the war.

[@jillianprego7007]

I think its really fitting that Rita Moreno, who was the only actual Puerto Rican actress in the og West Side Story and played Anita, is the one who sings Somewhere in the new version !!

[@swimteamizzle1114]

I feel like I read the 2021 West Wide Story this way without really realizing it. I definitely had a strong reaction to "A Boy Like That", and discussed a lot with my partner about how Anita was 100% right, actually.

[@LTTn3rd]

I work with Shakespeare’s plays a lot in my professional life, and what you say in the opening minutes mirrors exactly why I always pull away from setting R&J in an environment that places the divide racial and/or class lines. The text condemns both sides as equally responsible for the violence in the city and the deaths of our leads, but when I see productions that have set Verona in a contemporary environment along racial or class lines it feels so gross to me. The intent is to point out how unfounded our prejudices are, but you do that by placing equal blame for racial violence on the POC characters as well as the white? Or on the impoverished as well as the rich? The text is written to speak to all sides equally and that isn’t appropriate when depicting an oppressor and the oppressed.

[@echowoods7977]

romeo and juliet is peak when it's two rich asshole families fighting over petty bullshit and i stand by this

[@noahwiener2491]

the apotheosis of this was the one where romeo is a nazi and juliet is a jew- like how is the end scene supposed to play out then, is hitler going to see the two dead kids and be like well guess i wont do the holocaust

[@voidify3]

I saw a production of Romeo and Juliet set in modern London where the Capulets were Indian and the Montagues were black, and that does something interesting- two different minority groups rather than one of them being the dominant group. The Paris plot was also reframed as an arranged marriage to make it make sense (Juliet being the daughter of immigrants)

[@LTTn3rd]

@@voidify3 That sounds like a really interesting and smart way to handle modernization! I can see that’s being way more harmonious with the text.

[@LTTn3rd]

@@noahwiener2491 Wow. That’s an insane concept. 😬

[@gustav1712]

joel has no awareness of how truly mean and frightening geese are

[@FuckTheYoutubeUsernameChange]

but the goose has no awareness of how powerful big joel is

[@dackattac]

@@FuckTheKZbinUsernameChangeah, but that’s why the goose brought backup

[@FuckTheYoutubeUsernameChange]

@@dackattac they're foolish if they think they can take him

[@BambiTrout]

I live in (old) York and we let the geese run the city because people are too scared to challenge them. They rule with an iron fist from the university campus. One year a Lancaster student came here and got straight up shanked by a goose. The only thing scarier than the geese is the two mysterious swans who lead them...

[@sharkofjoy]

Anyone who thinks they can take on three angry geese unarmed is a fool and living a fantasy.

[@elliedwa]

Great video! I think it's important to note that in the theatrical production of WSS, the song "Somewhere (There's a Place for Us)" is not sung by Tony and Maria, but by an anonymous offstage soprano--it's the 1961 film that gives the song *to* them. This is a point where the 2021 film is more faithful to the show

[@MelanieNLee]

Neither the 1961 nor the 2021 movie features the "Somewhere" dream ballet. In the original stage version, when Tony comes to Maria's bedroom after the rumble and Maria beats him up and then collapses in his arms, they sing an intro to "Somewhere", and the stage opens up to a shared fantasy where the Sharks and the Jets get along and play together, and cross-group love is celebrated. Then Riff and Bernardo walk on, and the hostilities flare up again. You can see several versions of this dream ballet on KZbin, interpreted different ways, within different stage productions of West Side Story. I'd like it if someone--Steven Spielberg? Lin Manuel Miranda?--filmed the "Somewhere" dream ballet as a short professional film.

[@2degucitas]

​@@MelanieNLee This is the first time hearing about this scene. You really know this musical.

[@FlyAwaySongbird]

​@@MelanieNLee i really wish they had found a way to incorporate the dream sequence! i think it's really poignant (especially if you use Big Joel's reading of Riff being a racist being the catalyst to all this violence and misery) that the happy beautiful dancing ends when Riff and Bernardo show up - it shows that the violence begins and hopefully ends with them. now that both (and tony) have died, it's possible these two groups can move towards peace and some semblance to the dream sequence unity. Somewhere + ballet is my favourite piece of the stage production and it's such a bummer that there hasn't been an adaptation of that part yet.

[@elizabethcoyotl1883]

the part where Maria and Tony are arguing on the train is actually more complex than what you said here. Maria suddenly becomes aware of the danger Tony poses to her. She didn't know he had these views and suddenly she's afraid he is like them and could hurt her. she can't push the argument further because she's afraid of him and she can't escape because she's been sheltered by her brother and wouldn't know a way to get back home.

[@soph996]

I can kinda see your point but I don't think that's what the movie tried to sell us. She seems more annoyed and shocked than scared or in fear. If she was, or that was the intended emotion, they needed to have Rachel Zegler act it out or the script to emphasize it more

[@12classics39]

Also, Tony is constantly defending Riff, the guy who has been making her brother’s life a living hell from day one. If I were her, I would’ve just stopped liking Tony. That’s my biggest problem with this version; we’re supposed to believe they’re soulmates and yet Maria keeps seeing more and more reasons why this guy is just way below her, morally.

[@metalmonkey27]

Just as a note: in the original stage musical "somewhere" isn't a song between Tony and Maria, it's sung by one of the shark women off stage. The way the first movie changed it made the meaning feel very different, and it seems like the new movie kind of went back to the original way it was performed.

[@triggthediscovery]

I wonder how much of this read of WSS 2021 comes from Elgort's performance. He's very focused and intense which makes sense, but he doesn't really sell the deep infatuation which makes Tony's foibles less horrifying. He almost comes off like a weird pushy guy who won't take no for answer (though that might be me projecting the actor's personal life). It's subtle, but he always seems to have a little too much control over himself for me to buy him as just a dumb kid in over his head. As the video points out, the changes made to the script push him in that direction (likely the reason Elgort was cast) but I wonder if the central tragedy would hit better if an actor like Tom Holland played Tony.

[@Turtlee.]

THIS!!! i can believe maria’s innocence and naivety but the narrative and performance constantly tells us that Tony should have known better

[@imlosthelpc2096]

Thank you!!! This is exactly how I felt that is why, it was just uncomfortable for me to (try to) believe the innocence of the relationship between Tony and Maria

[@maddieb.4282]

Excellent comment, very well said. He doesn’t sell naïveté at all and I don’t think he was trying

[@SchulzEricT]

I was flabbergasted when I learned that Elgort was a human being and not a burnt piece of old toast, because he has all the talent and charisma of a burnt piece of old toast. I agree with what you imply, that maybe casting somebody with some modicum of talent would've worked better than this talentless black hole of charisma. Not to be mean or anything, but he's maybe the least interesting, least talented person I've ever seen in film.

[@12classics39]

Honestly Tom Holland would’ve been the perfect Tony. As a modern Romeo, Tony is supposed to be naive and impulsive. Elgort’s world-weary portrayal betrays the central function of Romeo/Tony’s role.

[@robertsyrett1992]

Big Joel has some of the best musical theater analysis.

[@CaptainCarrotzz]

Bro goes to the Opera. He's already more cultured than I could ever hope to be.

[@KillerOfWhales]

@@CaptainCarrotzz Nah that’s Little Joel

[@guystudios]

@@CaptainCarrotzzOpera?

[@mysweetphantom]

that's interesting, i always viewed it as the movie/play also knows the Jets are the worst ones. Like, as the play goes on it really highlights how deeply cruel and unfair the world is in regards to racism. like even when tony is doing revenge, he does it for his FRIEND, killing her BROTHER. the stakes are never equal. Like when the Jets attack Anita, they are SCUM in that moment, worse than monsters. I think Maria just wants it to stop and she thinks that everyone will listen if they can calm down, like "surely they are just people like us and will calm down, see how we both have struggles" but they wont and they just take everything from her, her brother, her lover, her hope her happiness. the sharks don't want any of that, but they can't stop protecting themselves. i dunno maybe its meant to be messy. but even as a kid i was like "THE JETS ARE SO MEAN! THEY WORK WITH THE STUPID COP I HATE THEM"

[@Starkinator]

Sideways has a great analysis of the music in West Side Story that backs up your thesis. I'll link it below. kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4LPmJyFZ56EipY Basically, he notes that the Jets theme is inextricably linked to the "conflict/hate theme," aka the motif that signals the gangs opposing each other or violence breaking out. because of this, Jet songs that are ostensibly internal, such as "Gee, Officer Krupke" and, well, "Jet Song," have significant overlap with the conflict in the score. The instrumentals signal that the Jets are an intrinsic part of the conflict. There's also some cool music theory that indicates that the Jet and conflict motifs have unbalanced parts, so they feel "incomplete" and like they require some sort of resolution. The Jets, like the conflict, are waiting to snap, to drag themselves to a conclusion. This makes sense, of course, because the gangs are fighting. However, the Sharks notably do NOT have this imbalance. Their big song, "America," completely omits the notes that signal the "conflict theme." Their music is internally resolved, which is the same thing that happens for Tony and Maria in "Maria." Their music finds conclusion within itself, because the Sharks exist outside of the conflict (at least in the eyes of the score) in a way that the Jets do not. Tony and Maria also find this, because they are trying to abolish the conflict. The Jets, however, do not. So yeah, this is all a really long way to say that Sondheim almost certainly agreed with you.

[@MaddyBlu9724]

Yeah now that I think about it, I am not nit picky about that stuff but it does push suspension of disbelief that they could go from being willing to commit literal gang r*pe to being essentially reformed in like, several hours.

[@crumblingronald3012]

In highschool, my friends and I were in a production of WSS, and this was definitely something that could have been considered deeper. I will always have a soft spot for Riff, not because of anything to do with his character, but because he was played by my best friend. His right hand man, Action, was played by my other best friend, and I was a Jet lackey named Big Deal. That production foregrounded one of the best years of my life mentally and socially, and so separating the feelings I have for my friends and the characters in the production can be difficult, and the narrative changes in the new movie really challenge that dissonance for me.

[@drewbabe]

Yeah this is the way most people see the story, that the Jets are the primary antagonists, but the story still frames the use of violence on either side as equally wrong. The Jets are racists on top of being thugs, while the Sharks are just thugs, but at the end of the day, the knife and the gun don't care what the person they're piercing cares in his heart, so it's frame as being wrong to escalate to violence no matter what the circumstances are. At best, the musical frames the Sharks' anger as justified but still demands that they not retaliate, that if they had not formed as a gang then no one would have died because the Jets wouldn't have enemies to have a gang war with. Sure, the Jets are equally culpable, the movie says, and they're the ones who are privileged and racist, but their existence is kind of presupposed in the same way that the police are. And at the end of the movie, people are dead and "both sides" realize their fighting had real consequences, but the Jets still continue to exist, they still continue to be largely racist, and we're left with the suggestion that the world is simply unfair and there's nothing we can do but pity the downtrodden. An alternate ending where the Jets renounce their racism, coming to understand the plight of the immigrants they've antagonized, and surrender to them and ask not for forgiveness but for the opportunity to help improve their situation and to make the neighborhood not a warzone but into something that stands up against the racist cops would have been much better, but what can we really expect from something written in the 1950s? Police abolition was something that only anarchists were talking about at the time, and anarchism was an extremely underground political movement at that point. Maybe someone writing a musical somewhere today has the same thoughts as me and is going to make a successor to West Side Story that ends along these lines. I can only hope.

[@oldvlognewtricks]

This is somewhat undermined by the existence of ‘Gee, Officer Krupke’. They’re racist, for sure, but they’re also oppressed - and being painted as a homogenised group by more ‘acceptable’ branches of society.

[@Cheesycat948]

Ansel Egort is fine in the movie. The rest of the cast is exceptional. The women carry the whole movie. I have watched that boy like that scene in 2019 movie 100 times. So amazing.

[@morganalabeille5004]

I think another important difference between Romeo and Juliet and West Side Story is the characters' ages. Romeo and Juliet are around 13-15, while Tony and Maria are adults. When Romeo and Juliet act rashly, make bad decisions, and get people hurt it's way more understandable because they are literal children. Maria and Tony are full grown adults making their tragedy much more about their own flaws as people rather than them being failed by the authority figures in their lives.

[@sabretoo]

When you posted that you were about to make a video about this, I finally watched the 2021 WSS. I'd been putting it off because I don't like Ansel Elgort. I agree with you that they made Tony a worse person, which changes the story so profoundly. And it is potentially an interesting change, as you explain so well. Anita certainly sells it. The problem for me is they also change Maria to make her a more empowered character. They also develop Chino more and show the lovely family dynamics between Maria, Bernardo, and Anita. For this reason, I had such a hard time understanding why she would bother with Tony. Chino is the one who dances with her and makes her smile. All the charm and sweetness is gone from Tony and Maria's meetings at the dance and the dress store. The line that made this problem clear to me was when Maria sings, "I have a love and it's all that I have." In this version, she has more. She has a dream of going to college. She has nice relationships within her community. She has opinions about racist violence and injustice. Tony and Maria's new dynamics are too complicated to fit into the original, more innocent framework. I felt too frustrated with the movie to care about these dramatic moments, even though I agree with you what they are supposed to mean. I also felt pissed off that they made Anybodys a trans man but softened his racism, probably for the sake of "good representation," but also kept his pathetic personality... I'm like boy go get some queer friends, you're in NYC for Christ sakes.

[@Rich_P_Anya]

It's gussying up a pig, this 2021 adaptation. What's next? A"kinder, gentler" "birth of a nation"?

[@thomasstone3480]

i never got positive feelings about chino? he came off as... entitled to maria, like big nice guy energy, quiet and reserved but not actually kind

[@guystudios]

Nah

[@agirlwithdreams15]

The point of Maria not liking Chino has to do with how he doesn't get her. She cannot dance with him the way she can with Tony.

[@sabretoo]

She doesn't have to get with Chino either. I saw more chemistry than I expected between her and Chino, but that's just me. My bigger point was she seemed more the type to focus on herself/her own future than trying to get with this dreadful Tony.

[@burgermind802]

Big Joel is getting a hard time from all these little Joel stans flooding the comments, but remember Big joel was around long before anyone had even heard of little Joel. He may be older now, but he deserves our respect.

[@glenndonuts]

more like Boomer Joel, the future is little

[@dragonfire7965]

Both big Joel and little Joel can coexist…. We just need love

[@brushwagg7735]

A Joel divided cannot stand. He must come together as one medium joel

[@osjos2822]

Big Joel walked so little Joel could run

[@kamek200]

You gotta kick up to Don Big Joel

[@evilgayjester2997]

I remember being so thrilled in the cinema as A Boy Like That played out -- it's a song which I love musically, but was always blocked weirdly and felt strange within the plot before. It's also worth mentioning the place they're in when Anita acquiesces in the 2021 version: after bitterly fighting all the way through the apartment, they end up in Anita and Bernardo's room, surrounded by Bernardo's things, while Maria sings about her love overpowering all reason. It really undercuts any feeling we might have had in the original version that Maria's won the argument in any real sense. Originally she's so angelic that we feel like we're supposed to agree with her preaching, and Anita is somehow learning some powerful lesson about forgiveness. Here she's surrounded by memories of the love she's lost and has no way to separate Maria from the murderer she feels the same way for. Anita giving in feels tragic for her, not redemptive. It works much better with her later scene at Doc's, where all her fears for Maria and feelings about the Jets are confirmed all over again.

[@obsidiancrow450]

The fact that west side story 2021 managed to stay faithful, use all of the songs of the original, and update the original in a meaningful way is masterful. I mean its spielberg I guess but its incredible.

[@3tangents]

It's a scene about realising that someone you love and care about is, at their core, deeply selfish, and realising there's no way to reconcile that with your own need for humanity from the people around you. It also flips the audience's sympathies from who and what they've grown accustomed to, whose perspective they're expecting to take. What an incredibly timely piece of writing.

[@judahcatherine]

I love all of this. If anyone is still on the fence about watching the 2021 version, the re-written and updated screenplay only accentuates the incredible and fresh choreography and costumes. I remember coming out of the theater with my head absolutely spinning about the Dance at the Gym. The acting is superb. Tony Kushners writing just shines, Spielberg’s directing is fantastic: just so much to love.

[@sorchamccarrey]

tony kushner is a hero, rescued this musical from theatre history/kitsch

[@judahcatherine]

@@sorchamccarrey the dynamic humanity he brings to every character that I think is missing in the original just creates the most wonderful 3D, lived in, complex world. I love it.

[@sorchamccarrey]

@@judahcatherine completely agree, he is one of my idols and u put it well :)

[@mexistential]

big joel outing himself as a sondheim fan greatly improved my life ngl

[@masterandexpert288]

It really is amazing how good the 2021 version is. I watched it with some friends of mine a year ago and it has stuck me completely. I've been listening to the music ever since then. It's so amazing when a reboot expands upon an original while respecting the source material. Great video Joel!

[@guystudios]

Yeah it really is a spectacular film.

[@vickitlsp]

I agree that I think Tony and Maria singing Somewhere (A Place for Us) is the most impactful. But in the stage musical it's sung by a no-named character during a ballet dream sequence depicting an idealized New York where everyone gets along. I think that a character like Valentina singing it makes more sense than this nobody, like in the play, but it doesn't work as well as having the leads do it.

[@squashfei8907]

I actually saw this other video essay (I think by Sideways) that goes into how the music (not the singing, the score) supports the idea that the Jets are to blame for the conflict because there's this letimotif that represents conflict that only plays as part of their songs. There's a lot of other interesting stuff too that I forget.

[@whiplashfilms]

Yep and now I'm crying watching again. Zeigler and DeBose just crushed it.

[@SourBunnyBear]

love this analysis, I will say this movie impacted me way more than the previous one as a Puerto Rican. Right from the opening it was clear that they weren't going to lighten the truth of these racist conflicts. Seeing those white boys grab paint and desecrate the Boriquen Flag actually enraged me a lot more than I thought. My great grandparents were New Yoriquens of this time period and the flag is soooo important as a rebel flag of the island; we were banned from flying it for a long time. Seeing them slash paint gleefully onto that symbol- wooo my blood boiled. This movie did such a beautiful job giving us nuance and depth on a beloved play. Loved seeing my people have a great story and of course seeing Rita Moreno reprise a part in the musical was a joy. Again great essay thanks for making it :)

[@mckeldin1961]

West Side Story works best on stage. The reason there is no "Shark Song" is the Puerto Rican perspective is seen primarily through the women to mirror Maria (in the original stage production, "America" is an argument among the women... the men don't participate). The Jets' perspective is seen through the men to mirror Tony (you'll note that their girlfriends are not as prominent as the Sharks'). Also on stage there is an elaborate ballet to accompany "Somewhere" that occurs after Tony has come into Maria's bedroom post-rumble, but before they consummate their love. It's a mistake to take West Side Story in any of its versions as a realistic story though, it's stylized from start to finish (less so in the movie versions -- especially Spielberg's -- but it's still there). West Side Story was written in a way to allow the music, lyrics and choreography to tell a story and express emotion. The fact that it's "book" (or script) is underwritten was deliberate to allow the musical elements to carry the heavy baggage (Kushner's screenplay for Spielberg is unfortunately *over*written)

[@Rich_P_Anya]

Sorry it doesn't work on or off stage. It is functionally propaganda. I'm guessing the work is close to your heart. You can enjoy it , but don't defend its faults.

[@mckeldin1961]

@@Rich_P_Anya Thank you for correcting me. Your knowledge is only exceeded by your humility.

[@guystudios]

Nah

[@calumdowbigginglew3205]

​@@Rich_P_Anya this is the kind of cultural criticism I love to see!

[@host_theghost507]

Tony Kushner is a genius and Angels in America is maybe the best play of our time, but he does have an unfortunate habit of overexplaining. He seems awfully determined to make sure we don't accidentally sympathize with the wrong people. His bad guys are beyond forgiveness not because they' do bad things but because they're standing on the wrong side of the barricades, and he spends a lot of time letting us know why the wrong side is so wrong. It doesn't work with a musical as frankly emotional as WSS. The music wants us to cry when Tony dies and the screenwriter doesn't. Re: "America." I've always thought Robert Wise made some smart choices in the 1961 version, rearranging the songs so that "Cool" comes after Riff's death and "Officer Krupke" is opposite "America," at a point where it's still possible to feel some mirth. "Officer Krupke" works as a response to "America"-it shows that while the Jets may not have things as bad as the Sharks, they're still pretty bad off.

[@davidwestry6216]

Thank you As a puerto rican with ny roots, this musical left me uneasy, and i think u nailed why

[@ChoppedLiver]

Sondheim wrote "Something's Coming" the week before the play opened because the original Tony, Larry Kert, was such a dynamic singer and actor. I was desperately in love with Larry Kert as a tot, and saw him in "West Side Story" three times.

[@CleverUsername69420]

Sondheim was a musical genius. His works will always be treasures and the entire theater community will miss him

[@host_theghost507]

Poor Larry Kert. Between WSS and Company he deserved so much more credit than he ever got.

[@Moley-ug6gq]

I’m amazed he learnt it in a week! It’s an incredibly difficult song. Watch the rehearsal footage of Bernstein and José Carreras to get an idea…

[@wesshiflet2214]

the entire romance being kind of perverse just makes it more like Romeo & Juliet, doesn’t it? genius!

[@rivermundcatradora7061]

....not really. This video now really wants me to watch the new West Side Story, as a fan of the original broadway recording (though I kinda like the old movie too), but, having just reread Romeo and Juliet, I gotta say that West Side Story is a very, very different story. It really hinges on this. Juliet, like Maria, quickly "forgives" her lover Romeo when she learns that Romeo killed Tybalt (who, unlike Bernardo, is also a genuinely awful man). But then, as Romeo is exiled from Verona, Lord Capulet tries to force Juliet to marry Paris -- something he had been planning since the start of the play -- while the Nurse, the story's "Anita", suddenly abandons Juliet, siding with Juliet's father. Juliet's love for Romeo suddenly has genuine stakes -- Paris is more than a decade older than her, and her father threatens to kick her out of the house if she doesn't marry him -- and, remarkably, she sticks to her guns, she shows to both Verona and the reader that her love for Romeo is, in fact, real. Maria never had such a moment. The love between Maria and Tony never got to be anything but perverse, and I think this is because of that bit of the play Joel quoted at the very start: "Two houses, both alike in dignity...." The love between Romeo and Juliet got to stop being perverse adolescent nonsense because the world they lived in, the conflict between their two houses, was even more perverse, being nonsense for both sides (indeed, there are some readings where the Montagues and the Capulets were originally one family). The Jets and the Sharks, meanwhile, are by no means equal: the only way the love between Maria and Tony could be wholesome is if they used their love to right the wrongs done to Maria's people. It may very well be that *West Side Story*, while having the same plot as *Romeo and Juliet*, has a different precursor in Shakespeare, written by Shakespeare at about the same time. In *The Merchant of Venice*, the love between everyone but Shylock and his dead wife *is* perverse, Shylock at the end is cast away, and justice is only ever suggested, not served.

[@mim_mimm]

​@@rivermundcatradora7061 based

[@olgil]

I enjoyed this vid as always but there are a few extra points to make just because it's an interesting topic (and I love both movie adaptations): In the Prologue of both versions, the violence escalates in a tit for tat way (started by the jets) but is heavily escalated by the Sharks by mutilating Baby John, who is perceived to be the most innocent member of the Jets, and the scene is much more graphic in the 21 version to make the Jets more sympathetic. The Jets are made far more sympathetic in the 21 version partly due to Mike Faist's Riff coming across far more unhinged and nihilistic, driving home the point that he has nothing to lose far more than the original did. Despite agreeing with everything you said about A Boy Like That, I found the 21 version of I Have A Love far more emotionally charged than I did in the original. I'm not sure if it was the performance, cinematography or subtle changes in the orchestration but I genuinely welled up watching it in the cinema, despite often fast forwarding through that part when I watched the 61 version as a kid. The scene where the Jets assault Anita solidifies them as bad guys. Whatever sympathy they had built up dies with Riff and they become full on villains. Its clear in the 61 version but they spell it out in the 21 version by actually calling them rapists.

[@amystrickland7162]

I found the original I Have a Love to be meh. It was a gorgeous vocal performance but its placement and the nature of it being lip synced from another vocalist made it devoid of the emotional intensity that Zegler brought

[@ogolthorp]

I see Tony as a character who is unable to escape his past despite his efforts. He says no to the dance, but goes anyway. He doesn’t want any part of the rumble, tries to prevent Riff from having a gun, and tries to make things work with Maria, but his past and his inability to let it go (Riff and the Jets) makes it so he winds up and the rumble, and kills someone. Which is exactly the thing he was worried he would do if he rejoined that life. Tony is unable to escape his past while Maria can only look towards the future.

[@Wawagirl17]

Mmm-hmm. I heard a podcaster compare it to a person who's sober and trying to turn their life around, yet doesn't understand that he can't hang out with his old drinking buddies anymore. I find it a fair comparison. Valentina was absolutely correct that if Tony wants to grow up and stay out of legal trouble, and overall be a better person, he needs to dump Riff. But he can't do it, and alas, doesn't seem to understand how crucial that is.

[@blackops4854]

Natalia Wood was really out here rolling the r's in her songs to act Puerto Rican Edit: spriting k correctly pointed out she was dubbed by Marni Nixon, so it's actually her rolling r's (and doing absolutely nothing else) to sound Puerto Rican

[@spritingk6879]

she didn't sing the songs, that's marni nixon, but she did speak them

[@sorchamccarrey]

ugh i hate it, so glad for the remake

[@lachumayo]

This was a beautiful and really well put together analysis of an equally wonderful work. Great job Big Joel, you rock.

[@metalstuccolath347]

I think Leonard Bernstein is the reason why any of this works in the first place. Tony Kushner’s script is leagues beyond the original in all the ways you mention but somehow the piece has always worked despite the very real flaws in the narrative. It’s because the music defines these people so viscerally that the details almost don’t matter. The music in the Prologue tells us all we need to know about what these kids are feeling and the play between the joy of the moments when they’re owning the street versus the clang and dissonance of the increasing fighting. “America” is about life in America, yes, but to me the full-bloodedness of the music and the dance and the blaring Trumpets in the instrumental section and the bounce of the rhythm and the groove all paint these people as rich, passionate, exciting characters well beyond anything the lyrics are literally saying. I believe in Tony and Maria’s passion because of how how “Tonight” pulsates and throbs and defies the logic that these people literally don’t know each other at all. The music makes me believe it.

[@Moley-ug6gq]

Couldn’t agree more. This is what musical theatre is all about - the music makes the story work, it adds something that makes the unbelievable believable. There was a lot to like and agree with in Joel’s video but I find it strange that in 20+ minutes talking about West Side Story, the name Bernstein didn’t appear once!

[@habeashumor9814]

In the original stage production, “Somewhere” is sung by an anonymous offstage female. So the new movie is actually closer to that.

[@SteveJubs]

“Geese don’t have feet, they have wobblers.” I’ve been saying this for years, and it’s lovely to have this validation.

[@tomithebunny]

Anita is my favorite character from West Side Story for many, many reasons. She gets all the best numbers, for one.

[@achristiananarchist2509]

I honestly kind of think that, while it certainly isn't thematically the same as Romeo and Juliette due to the power dynamics involved, having the romance be kind of toxic and messed up actually fits in pretty well with the overall gist of the play it is based on. Romeo and Juliette tends to get framed as being about true love, and the tragedy being that these two people who deeply loved eachother died young because of a family feud, but that isn't really it imo. Romeo is just as in love with a completely different random girl in the beginning of the play before he meets Juliette. He's a dumb kid with hyperactive hormones who falls madly in love with a different girl every week. Had the story not ended in their deaths, it would have ended with them growing apart and him running off after some new girl next month, just as emotionally invested as he is now. The romance element of it is completely surface level, the same sort of "I love them and you don't understand mom!" shit we all did at 14. The tragedy is that their whole lives were cut short over some hormonal teenage nonsense because their families were too wrapped up in their stupid feud to be properly taking care of their idiot kids. The love is pointless and fleeting. The death isn't. Given that, I honestly think there is something appropriate about having these characters reflect that in our modern world, thinking they are seeing beyond the racist structures of society with the power of their love, but really are just stupid kids being railroaded along by those very structures.

[@owie34]

Great comment, personally though one thing I would argue that there are some hints in the play that Romeo and Juliet both mature through each other, and can further. I think it's a failure of the idiot world of busybody, too-clever, or blind adults that they couldn't midwife this match. I think that this possibility is one of the greatest losses in the tragedy, but I also think that that can be true while it is also true that as you say, Romeo and Juliet are naive kids who mess up plenty themselves.

[@Ssalamanderr]

Yeah they are "star crossed lovers" meaning they are kind of crazy and delusional.

[@anjabartlog496]

sorry, I know it's pretty popular but the "just hormonal teenagers" analysis of Romeo and Juliet is very surface level and has never sat right with me. first of all, when Juliet is introduced we learn that she is a 13 year old who is offered no other future than getting married and getting pregnant as a young teen (just like her mother did) Romeo on the other hand is also a teenager, surrounded by violence and the constant threat that he or one of his friends could be killed in the feud that his father and grandfather before him were a part of. Romeo and Juliet are drawn together because they both see each other an escape from the vicious familial cycles they're trapped in (e.g. Juliet can have a choice in her marriage and when/if she has children. Romeo can prove that love is possible between the two families and then they won't have to fight anymore) I would agree with you that it isn't a romantic love story, because they love each other only as concepts and do not know each other as people, but I don't get how you can say their actions are irrational or purely hormonal. (What would you consider a RATIONAL action for Juliet? Going along with her family's plans of marrying her off against her consent instead?) I think anyone who says that everything would have been fine if they hadn't entered the relationship is missing a huge part of the play: everything in their lives was ALREADY very far from fine, and they were trying to fix it. Both of the teenagers are latching onto each other and making their best effort to cultivate peace and freedom in a world where neither of those things were given to them. I would go on to say that their suicide at the end is a result of the fact that they had both seen each other as a representation of the new life they desperately wanted. They choose to die not because they can't live without each other, but because they can't face living the life they were in before. Overall, Romeo and Juliet is a story of two people who are bold and hopeful enough to try and break the curses that have been in their family for generations, but ultimately die for it. After their death, the families vow to stop fighting, but it's unclear if Romeo and Juliet finally achieved their goal after death, or if these are just empty words.

[@Ssalamanderr]

@@anjabartlog496 Your point about them being more willing to die than to return to their old lives is a really good one. Thanks for the post!

[@host_theghost507]

​@@anjabartlog496 I agree. It doesn't take long to realize that R&J aren't just your everyday horny teenagers. These people flirt using classical rhetorical devices worthy of Erasmus. They may have been foolish but they weren't dumb. As you say, more likely likely escaping in the only way available to them. Even in Shakespeare's day, 13 was considered way too young to get married off (it was legal but rare, and most people married in their twenties), and marrying her to an older dude like Paris was simply treating this extraordinary young woman as a pawn. I don't see the suicide as a rational act-more like a Bonnie & Clyde thing, what they used to call a folie a deux and what we call a trauma bond. They were way too enmeshed. Then again, I never liked the ending: it all comes down to a tardy messenger, and Friar Lawrence gets off scot-free. But I'd say your reading is pretty spot-on overall.

[@musicalnerds101]

I wish you talked more about the implications of Valentina singing Somewhere rather than Tony and Maria! It was so powerful to switch it like that I wonder more of your thoughts of what it means they gave it to Valentina specifically

[@Lily-dh5jn]

I thought this was a little Joel video at first - it felt like saying the wrong name during sex

[@EnkiduShamesh]

I always say "Medium Joel" during sex to cover all of the bases

[@chicoarraes]

Geese are not easily frightened or distracted and can be pretty intimidating. Also they bite and they always go straight for your junk. But still, I believe in you Big Joel, you would foil those geese, no problem. But only because you're Big Joel, if you were a regular Joel, I would bet on the geese.

[@annawolfe.]

just wanted to gush about how absolutely smooth the transition was on the versions of "something's coming" at 6:32. audio editing like that is some of the toughest stuff to nail, major props. also fantastic essay ofc lol

[@larsnyman2455]

Watched it on Nebula and this is easily one of the best videos on this channel, I love it when you let loose and just dig deep into media you love

[@scottmartin5990]

The duet version of "A Boy Like That / I Have a Love" and the subsequent dialog IS actually the original version -- the theatrical version. Cutting that segment is probably the biggest weakness of the 1961 film, and Spielberg very correctly reinstated it.

[@eoinhanrahan2048]

Great video, as a huge west side story fan I love how well you put into words something I've always been aware of but not known how to phrase. Articulate, concise and well-structured - one of my favourites of the big joel portfolio!

[@yourneighbourtodoro]

Honestly, I think this is one of your best videos. It's definitely going to be on my rewatch list. Super moving. Keep up the good work!

[@BardicMonk]

I was so worried when I heard this was getting a remake. I’ve seen the original so many times growing up and was really expecting something bad. I came out of the theater surprised that Cool and A Boy Like That were improved upon! Awesome video

[@karue7581]

Big Joel videos are always a treat

[@emilyh.9836]

This is FANTASTIC so well thought out and articulated i am just in awe of this video essay

[@sytonicflux]

This is such a wonderful expose, brilliantly constructed. Thank you Big J.

[@edwardlwittlif]

"Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding." -TMBG, 'Your Racist Friend'

[@cheer90099]

i love when you do videos like this, and this one in particular was so so so fucking good making me think about west side story in a totally new way

[@CaptainCarrotzz]

Love a Big Joel video. Thanks for your analysis.

[@thesupremeadmiral]

I watched this already on Nebula but I wanted to say that this is one of my favorite videos you've made in a long time. I love West Side Story more every time I see it. My favorite thing about it is that (as a dumb white guy) I always notice more and more details about how unequal the conflict actually is, and how much more is going on in the reality that can be discovered in the background details, over the story as it is being presented front and center. In terms of seeing it as an anti-racism art piece it always seemed to be saying "this stuff is obvious when you take the time to see and think about it, if you don't recognize it right away then *that's* the definition of privilege." It's insane to me that I once just wrote-off a single line of dialogue like "Well who asked you to move here?" and not realize the implications because the framing of the love story that's at the center of the conflict acts as though "both sides are wrong" when the reality can be easily recognized as "one side is much, much more wrong that the other." That said, I also like the changes in the remake and I like them for the exact reasons described in the video. I just wish the remake had a bit more color. It's a very grey film.

[@pazyamor2292]

On paper it doesn't make sense, but when I sat in the theater listening to Rachel sing and seeing Ariana react, I believed it.

[@ajaxk7677]

Great video big joel, made me feel the same way I did when I first discovered your channel a few years ago

[@joeyfromschool]

this is an excellent video essay, it’s so good

[@MurderousEagle]

These small little changes I don't think break the story as much as re-contextualize it towards a new end. If they were just a little better, more sensible about the situation we would feel differently, but these people are broken, broken by the crushing systemic evils that predate them. Their love is toxic and they never had a chance to be their better forms. They never address what's really wrong. they never had the power to. We mourn not for their love but for the world that traps not just them but the larger cast.

[@angelahull9064]

And really, the original Romeo and Juliet was also a toxic relationship, no one is innocent. This 2021 West Side Story strips away all the Broadway glamour and Hollywoodization, reimagining the story as a truly classical Shakespearean tragedy set to music.

[@Moley-ug6gq]

@@angelahull9064 …which is how it was originally imagined. The 2021 version isn’t perfect but it gets this right. I like to think it would have made Bernstein proud.

[@kharris3352]

I was worried you’d been investing too much time into Little Joel and you’d get bored of this more serious and thoughtful kind of content, but it’s clear you’re still as creative as ever! Thanks so much for this new video!

[@Emma-zc5jm]

Thank you for reminding me how badly I want to rewatch the original film

[@elecboy5126]

The concept of tugging on the culpability thread is compellingly intuitive! My mind races on how this collapse might have been avoided

[@Ohfukmoment]

The music of this show is so powerful that just hearing snippets of the songs made me tear up. I always how forget how good the music is.

[@thatsdisco]

This is such an exquisite analysis of both the original and the newest adaptation ♡

[@Iotuseater]

I really love hearing big Joel talk about stuff, what an incredible and intriguing man he truly is.

[@SarahHopkins]

This is a really incredible video. I love West Side Story but you really nailed the weirdness and darkness at the heart of it.

[@eventsinarizona]

Where oh where is medium Joel will we ever find him? my heart shatters of these questions

[@atlaswinter8134]

Joel definitely hasn't been attacked by a goose before

[@anikoInstrumentalist]

Not for long

[@brushwagg7735]

I had one of those dumb but still traumatic childhood experiences with a goose as child. So I was messing with goose and got goose-bit, standard dumb kid/goose stuff. But I was sitting down and saw the goose’s terrifying serrated beak at eye level point blank and it was pretty scary: But then, when I expressed my terror at the goose’s horrible teeth I got a condescending lecture about how geese have no teeth so I must be making up the whole thing which just embedded the whole scene in my head for my entire life. Goose trauma.

[@ixfalia]

This is a great analysis of all the complex themes of the movies/shows pivoted on the one song. It was actually really fascinating to look at the contrast between them

[@jopantes]

was waiting on having a homey day to finally watch west side story to watch your video next! thanks 👍👍

[@mtfan3457]

I love the new version, the acting is just so powerful, i don't usually cry but this movie had me sobbing

[@NikELbErGErBergel]

Fully expecting a "i was wrong on geese" little joel video now. Geese are terrifying. They are built for violence and they do not have any inhibitions. If a goose took my shoes i would own one less pair of shoes. It's just not worth the risk.

[@theunknown4834]

Shall the goose wall begin.

[@melissahourihan2344]

This has to be one of my favorite Big Joel vids

[@adept42]

This is a great video. I’m surprised it isn’t getting more views. On the other hand, I was also surprised Spielberg’s West Side Story didn’t get more views.

[@dazedneptune]

Yesss. More musical analyses please 🙏

[@CrewMonkey1458]

The thing is, even if Tony hadn't killed Bernardo, Bernardo was still fucked. His only options would've been prison, death (whether by execution or the Jets), or going on the lam. He could try to hide out, but it wouldn't be long till Schrank and the cops found him, or he could have tried to jump a ship to Puerto Rico that night and got out, or he could have hopped on a bus and gone to another state with Anita. But otherwise, whatever life he had planned to have in America was gone. While he was defending his people, he was so blinded by fear that he failed to see that his actions had consequences. To be clear, I'm not defending Tony or trying to rationalize Maria's response; that's my take.

[@juliadandy6019]

For a second I thought you were advertising Little Joel and not Nebula hahah Great video!! Have to watch the new version now.

[@theclinger]

I love you big joel. You are the one true content creator that has lasted me the test of time. Thank you.

[@NamelessInternaut]

Boo! Stop stealing little Joel's spotlight!

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

These memes are getting out of hand 🤣

[@occamsaturn]

look at the length of this video the spotlight here is HUGE way too big for such a little joel

[@svld_6039]

A 25 minute video and we're still no closer to knowing the whereabouts of Medium Joel 😔

[@racoon2623]

i legit didn’t notice this was big joel until i saw this comment

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Do you think little Joel could even afford shoes?

[@joelman1989]

I never really connected with the original movie because the Puerto Ricans didn’t feel Puerto Rican to me. To be clear I always loved the fact it exists. It’s awesome media of any kind, let alone from the 60s, feature puerto Rican’s so prominently. I’ll have to give this one a shot

[@caterpillar9512]

what an incredible and intriguing man you truly are

[@ashleylunette2187]

loved this one, i kind of rly want to watch the 2021 west side story now tbh

[@thebeebz9511]

13:24 real talk though: people process grief and trauma in different ways.