The Sonic Origins Controversy - ft. Michael Jackson

[@chaomix]

What do you think of the prototype and rearrangement tracks? Do you like one more than the other, or are the original Michael Jackson tracks irreplaceable? Huge thank you to Squarespace for sponsoring this video! Check Out www.squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to www.squarespace.com/chaomix for 10% off the purchase of your first website or domain!

[@TitozThing]

I really enjoy the prototype ones, they just have that "what if this was the music" energy

[@standard1703]

Personally, Carnival Night was a huge glow up for me. Losing Ice Cap was a huge L though :/

[@LupinticDream]

The Prototype tracks are pretty solid, but the Origins rearrangements... aren't great. Would've just preferred for them to use the Prototype tracks unaltered with the original soundfont.

[@standard1703]

@@LupinticDream Ice Cap sounds pretty nice with the Origins soundfont, but I agree for the others

[@surgeeo1406]

I think people are falling into a sound design misunderstanding. If you're presented with two versions of the same track, one brighter (trebblier, more high-end) than the other, people in general will always prefer the brighter one. That doesn't mean the brighter one is better. If you're going to be listening to that track for twenty minutes it's going to hurt your years, so the prototipe versions would never be allowed in a final product. Just my two cents, some people are saying the prototypes are better, without a clue of what they're talking about.

[@ravaniphoenix5431]

"ft.Michael Jackson" My dude really went out and revived Michal Jackson for this video. I respect the dedication to your craft.

[@MikahilRBX]

lol

[@ZenithintheMaking]

RIP The King of POP

[@ver146]

lol

[@yaniktheyoutuber]

@@ZenithintheMaking lord of soda

[@Gmodfan750]

Uhhh, You misspelt Michael.

[@GodittoC]

Can't believe you actually got Michael Jackson himself on the video. You must be so luck to have him.

[@companyfunnyvideo5260]

Michael Jackson seeing this comment in heaven: bruh what💀

[@thatPAC-GUY]

He’s Not In This Video 😅

[@ExcelsiorLi-ion]

He died in 2009

[@gabplayz8726]

​@@ExcelsiorLi-ionr/woooosh

[@fireflygaming8764]

​@@ExcelsiorLi-ion Necromancy is a thing you know.

[@ADiretoria100]

Even after Naka's tweets people are still gonna ask "did MJ did Sonic 3 OST??" Oh my god its been confirmed already 5 times in this decade alone YES HE DID.

[@erc3338]

No he didn't. His backing track guy did it. Brad whatever. MJ's name was just used for publicity. Cuz Brad is basically just "The MJ Guy"

[@hanakowolf578]

@@erc3338 Are you talking about Brad Buxer? Yeah, he confirmed this a long time ago by agreeing to do a video with KZbin channel Game Trailers for a series they made a few years ago called Pop Fiction. Watch it. It's very interesting 🤔

[@entertainer_ev2747]

@@erc3338 then explain the beatboxing and the grunts

[@erc3338]

@@entertainer_ev2747 He obviously couldn't do it with anyone else's voice if Jackson wanted both credit and his samples to be used.

[@thecoolbroscoolman4672]

@@erc3338 kinda like my group projects

[@Legoluigi26]

Sonic 3 was rereleased a ton back in the day, but it stopped after the Steam release which was close to Jackson's death. I think Sega never wanted to repay royalties and perhaps never had to until ownership went to MJ's estate.

[@Moonlight_Soyuz]

I like that theory although it doesn't explain the PC S&K Collection.

[@logicGatekeeper]

@@Moonlight_Soyuz Considering the entire soundtrack got butchered by the stock midi instruments, I bet they felt it would've been more difficult to recreate the replaced tracks and instead just grabbed the prototype tracks instead.

[@tigglesbruh]

Yeah, trying to recreate those tracks to work with a default midi instrument set would be really hard considering all of the samples used in those songs@@logicGatekeeper

[@beatmania3rdmix]

@@Moonlight_Soyuz you can't replay samples with MIDI. and the Jackson songs used a ton of samples.

[@thetruej7872]

The whole thing with the music in Sonic 3 was really interesting to me. Learning Michael Jackson did the music blew my mind.

[@JamessonAllen]

You didn’t know that until this video?

[@thetruej7872]

@@JamessonAllen I knew about it.

[@yaniktheyoutuber]

@@JamessonAllen I didnt know either, I thought he only did the music in Sonic CD

[@sinphy]

@@yaniktheyoutuber wait what

[@evdestroy5304]

@@yaniktheyoutuber He didn't do the music for CD

[@pinkie723]

I honestly don't mind the prototype songs, they're pretty catchy in their own right. And I'm glad that players that grew up with the Sonic and Knuckles collection get to have extra nostalgia that they don't normally get to have playing other versions of Sonic 3, but yeah, the arrangements of the prototype songs in Origins aren't that great... I played around with the prototype songs in Sonic 3 AIR and they actually sounded great! but not so much in Origins, which is disappointing... if they sounded like they did in 3 AIR then I wouldn't really be upset about the cut music at all (I mean, the MJ songs are still better, but I think the 3 AIR prototype songs are the next best thing)

[@nuclearkitten6421]

I agree

[@lemonadesnake]

The 3 AIR songs actually come from the original prototype of the game leaked a few years ago. They do really sound much better, although Ice Cap sounds the same in origins.

[@stanzacosmi]

@@lemonadesnake ice cap is exactly the same and the only difference in act 1 of the prototype is the main instrument uses the act 2 main instrument.

[@lemonadesnake]

@@stanzacosmi yeah i already said that you just put it into more detail

[@Leonard_Wolf_2056]

A great thing about AIR is it pleases both groups. You can choose MJ tracks or beta tracks. And, if you like a certain remix better, you can easily mod it in.

[@saphiregoji9652]

The micheal jackson music in S3&K is just chefs kiss especially the ice cap zone 1(one of my fav tracks btw) replacing it with some random prototype music isn't as good as the original it doesn't mean its bad its just the original just slaps gotta admit

[@ravaniphoenix5431]

Ice Cap is not really Michael Jackson music. Look up "Hard times - The Jetzons"

[@saphiregoji9652]

@@ravaniphoenix5431 still slaps but i will check it out

[@saphiregoji9652]

@@ravaniphoenix5431 ok i understand the similarities

[@zalz]

Man ice cap is a classic

[@MEMESCAV]

Ok, let me explain to you something. The jetszons started making hardtimes around the 80s then sega hired them to make the soundtrack for ice cap zone. They took the song they were already making and made it with the genesis instruments. The band broke up, and one of the leaders started working with Michael jackson, and after that the song "hard times" was released in 2009.

[@DaynNight1234]

Micheal Jackson!? They told em "don't you ever come around here!" "Don't wanna see your face you better dissappear!" The fires in their eyes and their words are really clear so BEAT IT! JUST BEAT IT!

[@noventaporcento]

UH

[@jamiegioca9448]

@@noventaporcento You better run, you better do what you can Don't wanna see no blood, don't be a macho man You wanna be tough, better do what you can So BEAT IT! But you wanna be bad, just...

[@andreasavy7]

@@jamiegioca9448 BEAT IT BEAT IT BEAT IT BEAT IT NO ONE WANTS TO BE DEFEATED

[@41dn]

I don't remember chaomix accusing some furry KZbinr of being a pedophile

[@DaynNight1234]

@@andreasavy7 Showin' how funky and strong is your fight It doesn't matter who's wrong or right Just beat it (beat it) Just beat it (beat it) Just beat it (beat it) Just beat it (beat it, uh)

[@DanielMYT]

I bought the DLC for Sonic Origins under the assumption that "Classic music" meant returning the Michael Jackson songs to the respective levels in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and was disappointed to discover that you can't switch to this music even with the DLC. In my opinion the prototypes are OK, but the MJ ones can't be beat, especially Icecap, which is one of my favourite songs from the entire Sonic The Hedgehog series.

[@mavrickindigo]

Mod them in

[@grugonk]

Icecap isn't even one of MJ's songs. It's based on a song called Hard Times by a band called The Jetzons. One of it's members, Brad Buxer, also worked on the Sonic 3 soundtrack.

[@thecoolbroscoolman4672]

@@mavrickindigo why, I’m lazy ok and I want it in the base game

[@ThreeSwordXenas]

​@@grugonkactually that song came out in 2008. Yes he was a composer on the game but it was sampled from Michaels smooth criminal then in 2008 he released hard times which is why there's a battle with the original ice cap zone theme cause it's literally a sample of Michael's song

[@Nsinger998]

@@ThreeSwordXenas Incorrect. The Jetzons were active from 1981 - 1983 and one of their unreleased songs 'Hard Times' Was used for ice-cap zone in 1994. The Album you're referring to is a best of album.

[@kerbethegodkiller2914]

I think Sega should have hired the people that worked on the ost for mania

[@fujinshu]

Tee Lopes was too busy during that time with TMNT Shredder's Revenge, though it would've been nice.

[@jokx4409]

"So why do some re-releases have the music and some don't?" It's not about Sega wanting to pay for the music or not at all, it's MJ's death that matters here. Every single re-release of sonic 3 that had the original music was before MJ's death. MJ probably didn't care and just let them use the tracks however they wanted, even though he had the rights. Sega probably never bothered to get the rights to the tracks because they didn't need to since MJ would just let them use them as if it was their own. But after his death, it was up to his estate, not MJ himself. THEY probably care And the most IRONIC part of all of this story is that it's possible it's kind of the fanbase's fault for the removal of the tracks. The estate wouldn't have known MJ was involved with the ost of sonic 3 had it not been for us constantly shouting it on rooftops and making it widespread knowledge, seeking confirmation from sega and even pinpointing which specific tracks were likely composed by him. It's possible it's all our fault lol. It's also very possible that he composed Hydro city zone but since there was no evidence of music changes in the sonic and knuckles collection and the prototype, it was less "confirmed" than the other tracks. A guy credited as "Scirocco" had listed somewhere that MJ had composed a track for the game called "the water", which... Yeah idk what else it could be tbh. So maybe that's why Sega has yet to come clean with what specific exact parts of the game were composed by MJ even after dodging everything in origins. Because maybe more tracks than the ones we know for sure were composed by MJ and if Sega revealed that they would no longer be able to use them without the MJ estate speaking up. I find it funny to imagine sega changing the tracks that are known to be composed by MJ and yet leaving Hydro city as it is because not many people know he composed that one.

[@evdestroy5304]

The DS and PC versions were released after MJ's death so this post is pretty much null

[@KIIROCORE]

i don’t think hydrocity has a prototype version though? maybe he was working on one but it was scrapped or something?

[@jokx4409]

@@KIIROCORE it doesn't have a prototype version. All we know is that MJ is credited for a track called "the water" for Sonic the hedgehog 3.

[@adultmoshifan87]

@@evdestroy5304 and the Jackson invincibility and Super music was used in a Progressive commercial

[@evdestroy5304]

@MD Genjin I completely forgot about this. You're right. Maybe it was Progressive who paid royalties and not Sega?

[@KeltkeGH]

Forgot to mention that Senoue only composed the Bonus Stage music in Sonic 3. His compositions really shine in Sonic 3D Blast though.

[@The_upgrater]

Respect to this dude for reviving michael jackson just to make this video

[@castform7]

For me, the prototype/rearrangement tracks aren't bad, they're just leagues behind the tracks we're used to. I love Sonic 3's OST so seeing some of the best tracks not there is a bit sad but if I ever get Origins I can just mute my Switch and look up the song to listen to.

[@basilplushie2534]

Rearrangement one suck The prototype version is better than Michael except for ice cap

[@orangeslash1667]

@@basilplushie2534 Yes!!! Thank goodness for Sonic CD.

[@SegaMario]

Thank you for not just immediately crapping all over the songs like literally everyone else did. I get it, *some* of them didn't get their rearrangements done all that well. I don't need to hear that *OVER* and *OVER* again. I grew up with the PC version, so those tracks have a special place in my heart. I was happy knowing they were the actual intended songs for the game, as proven when the Prototype leaked back in '19. I agree that the likes of Carnival Night and sorta Launch Base could've been done better, but the likes of Ice Cap, Competition Menu and Credits are perfectly fine. MJ's songs are nice, don't get me wrong, but I personally feel most of the better tracks fit their respective parts better. Like, Carnival Night actually sounds like a carnival, whereas MJ's is funky beat with that stereotypical circus song snippet mixed in. There's a difference between a Carnival and a Circus, y'know.

[@ChuckE.CheesesIllinois]

They should've just used the original Genesis prototype tracks instead of using the crappy PC version, they really slap and people sleep on them.

[@naitsabes6222]

those were new versions of them and it’s said that the prototype music from 28 years ago sounds leagues better than this new music

[@StickMan10Blue]

It’s not directly the pc version. It’s a mixture of pc and mega drive instruments. That’s why it sounds so bad.

[@StickMan10Blue]

Also, if that wanted to used the original prototype, they would have to get permission form micheal Jackson. And that’s not gonna be easy considering that he’s, y’know…. Dead.

[@ChuckE.CheesesIllinois]

@@StickMan10Blue prototype, not released, Michael Jackson is the Released soundtrack

[@dededesgustingtkemylife4825]

@@StickMan10Blue there's actually a theory going around that the origins music is from an even earlier prototype, as certain other origin songs are one to one with the proto

[@chocolatesugar-lovage9678]

Concerning the recent Sonic movies, I read an article where someone on the team (or was on the team) mentioned in a tweet that the third installment of the franchise was going to involve MJ's music. I'm lucky to have subscribed to your channel and to have seen this video 'cause otherwise I wouldn't have known about the controversy and the secrets.

[@sonicmastersword8080]

Wait-the Sonic 3 movie is going to have Michael Jackson tracks? Paramount really is pulling out all the stops.

[@ChaosAngelZero]

Whether a new release of Sonic 3 keeps the MJ tracks or not depends on whether the developers buy the false accusations or if the whole matter is brought back in some way, like that fake documentary "Leaving Neverland".

[@theelectricprince8231]

Most peopel don't buy it, especially the people who play games. They might just get the attention of main stream news that don't shape the opinion.

[@mireya0269]

Nah, they just do it because with the years, copyright licenses for MJ have been pretty expensive, and Sega is very know for making cutshorts and avoiding expensive budget.

[@SilverLining1]

Definitely not because they're afraid of the allegations. Afterall, they could have kept his involvement a "secret" if it was and still use it, just like they did on the original release and megacollection. You get credit for pointing out that the allegations were false though. It pisses me off that one man ruined his life, legacy, and the enjoyment of all his fans, and by extension the sonic 3 ost, just for money and clout. And that he had no case but would have canceled his tour if not settled out of court. And, most of all, that everyone still believes the false allegations because no big names set the record straight

[@jac_238]

I can almost guarantee it has nothing to do with the accusations. Sega just doesn’t want to go through the legal and financial headaches of including the songs in the game

[@ChaosAngelZero]

@UCZLeYO56rffjVZUMMxkEqaw Does Sega need to pay the Jackson family or whoever owns the rights to MJ's works, *if MJ himself waived his work on Sonic 3 and isn't credited in the game?* And Sonic Mega Collection is supposed to be more high-profile than Sonic Origins, where they're throwing everything and the kitchen sink, as well as animating several minutes of brand new cutscenes and charging more money than they did for SMC? It makes absolutely no sense. It makes more sense that it's all part of an on-and-off "cancelation" of the man.

[@EWOODJ]

11:18 Probably because the tracks weren’t finalized/finished. In the leaked prototypes, the tracks of the earlier stages sound much different than their final counterparts. I was excited to hear what the finalized/finished versions of the unused prototype tracks would sound like. But instead we got what’s essentially a different mix of the MIDI versions used in the PC version.

[@OneAndOnlyDanky]

I’m pretty sure the only non emulation rerelease of Sonic 3 to include the original music is Sonic Jam. If I had to guess they just got lucky with that one and didn’t face any trouble, but now that it’s a big public thing they know that they’re going to face trouble. I think it’s more complicated than just paying they royalties or not but who knows

[@liamsemicolon]

they probably still were within their right to release the game with the original ost back then, licenses last a few years, i'd argue they did sonic jam at the time they did _because_ of that same reason

[@TheDJTailsN1]

Even the ds collection

[@PJWooperIsBack]

I adore Sonic Origins! The fact that I get to play my favorite games IN WIDESCREEN is the most coolest thing I seen, but Wasting about 50 Dollars to play Sonic 3 and just to hear different songs from different stages (or acts for those nerds) I always knew that the songs I heard were actually made by Micheal Jackson and that he wasn’t credited for the music but that what made me respect for the man. He was my dream star, seeing that being taken away was sad. I wish that they credited Micheal Jackson, kept the songs, and to make a stage for Micheal Jackson Bless you Micheal Jackson

[@JojoJere]

Its the worst comppilation ever. 45 dollars for a mid collection. Where the dropdash is annoying to use in 3 of the four games? Lol. Just get sonic 3 air or sonic 1 forever

[@JamesChessman]

4:41: "Sega never promoted his involvement..." I'm 100% sure that I DID see it mentioned at least, before Sonic 3 released. I definitely knew MJ was involved before the game released.

[@angelkatamari]

the MJ Team songs are incredible, and absolutely the proper soundtrack for Sonic 3. but i really just wish Sonic Origins offered more breadth in terms of features. Why are there even leaderboards if there is no Time Attack? It's just us fellow 20-30 something boomers using level select codes to replay levels :(. really disappointing that it isn't so accessible

[@axelprino]

While how much actual involvement had MJ in the making of the soundtrack is, and probably always be, pretty unclear, we do know for a fact that Brad Buxer was one of the composers. And it just happens to be that Hard Times, a song from his old band, sounds exactly the same as Ice Cap Zone. So there's definitely some weird stuff going on with the licensing behind the scenes at Sega. Probably one of the earliest clues was that Sonic & Knuckles received a proper CD release for its soundtrack back in the day while Sonic 3's soundtrack is often treated as a minefield when it comes to even referencing it in other games.

[@haikara6643]

it’s not letting me join your channel so here you go

[@zyriuz2]

I think the deal is that the game "sonic 3" must be the original ROM to use original music but when it gets reworked into a "new sonic 3" Michaels legal team wants royalties, but also i think Michael himself would have been chill with them using it anyways because he loves sonic and the game and is somewhat proud of what got in there, pretty much he would have played sonic origins and said like "yes this is cool! I want to be part of this" but now when he is dead legal teams often becomes more defensive over the artists work than the artist her/himself if they are alive it all boils down to what they think of your work that you gonna use it in and what mood they are in and when artist is dead it all boils down to if the legal team can find ONE detail in the agreements that can grant their side some money, as only "special deals" made with the artist itself gets dated pretty quickly.

[@Kelis98]

It’s a shame what happened to origins and I wish they’d fix whatever the issue is that way they can use the original MJ songs At least mods for the pc version exist

[@luckywii8731]

Lol true, but at this point, instead of getting mods for origins on PC you might as well get sonic 3 AIR at this point Unless you mean the PC version of Sonic 3 (at this point... What's the difference?)

[@sanyokk8024]

And for switch version too

[@DonkeKongy]

@@luckywii8731 Well if you dont own the original Steam version sonic 3...... no sonic 3 air. unless getting a rom would work too. i dont know

[@axylorionfredrick]

@@DonkeKongy Getting a rom does work actually. If you don’t have Sonic 3 on Steam it asks you to select a ROM file.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@sanyokk8024 There's also Freedom Planet a game that is inspired by Sonic.

[@Rabbitearsblog]

Awesome video as always! Even though I haven't played Sonic Origins yet, I was aware of the whole issue with Michael Jackson and the Sonic 3 soundtrack and I actually heard of the prototype soundtracks when I played the PC version of Sonic 3 many years ago. I'm glad that this video helped cleared up a few things about the PC version of the music.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Chaomix out here educating everyone on Sonic 3 and how Michael Jackson the King of Pop had a hand in making the music, you love to see it, I never knew S3&K had a PC Port with Midi Prototype Music, I would still take that over the revised Jun Senoe Origins tracks.

[@djhenriquez_]

The beat of Knuckles theme (Sonic 3 ver.) Is also seen in Michael Jackson's 1997 blood on the dance floor. The beat is only used once throughout the song but it is easily recognizable if you hear knux's theme and then listen to botdf

[@beatmania3rdmix]

10:14 thank god I experienced this PC soundtrack on a Soundblaster because the Windows MIDI version suuuuuuucked

[@EvGaming06]

“The Sonic Origins Controversy ft. Michael Jackson” Me at the beginning: “WAIT MICHAEL JACKSON IS IN THIS VIDEO I NEED TO SEE IT” Me at the end: “WHY ISN’T MICHAEL JACKSON IN THIS VIDEO I’M WRITING A COMMENT THAT SAYS “The Sonic Origins Controversy ft. Michael Jackson” Me at the beginning: “WAIT MICHAEL JACKSON IS IN THIS VIDEO I NEED TO SEE IT” Me at the end: “WHY ISN’T MICHAEL JACKSON IN THIS VIDEO”

[@Davidcatstudios]

Well finally you've talked about the mj sonic3 music

[@pyrofur_nx]

Some of the songs for Sonic 4 Episode II in particular are pretty damn good imo, like Oil Desert Act 1 and the Metal Sonic fight

[@JonahBoing]

The final boss theme too, man that shit goes hard lmao

[@jadedheartsz]

yeah the music sounds pretty good in that game IMO

[@stivers56]

I think it's that during the alligations, sega replaced the music with the original soundtrack as the prototype found with the music is dated a few months early, but someone at sega screwed up and this is why micheal jackson music is in the game without him being credited.

[@Trowelhands]

The last time we had the original soundtrack was in the Virtual Console version of Sonic 3 on the Wii, as well as the Backbone Entertainment port on XBox 360 (this wasn't brought to PS3 however)

[@amongstus4418]

Major thing you forgot to mention was that the prototype songs they use in Origins are actually using the alpha and UNFINISHED versions of the songs. In the latest Beta versions of Sonic 3 the songs have additional instruments.

[@Igronavt360]

To me personally I think when it comes to the prototype rearranged music, the only one I don't like is Carnival Night Zone. Ice Cap and Launch Base Zone sound fine to me but at the same time Music is extremely subjective. What I think sounds good or ok will not to others.

[@Djbrayster]

Brad Buxer was also cheeky in icecap zone's music, he snuck in his own song "hard times" which was unreleased by his old band the Jetzons. This would need royalties i guess as been released since..I appreciate the original and the proto versions, heck proto icecap reminds me of sonic 2 sms/gg's crystal egg zone. The bigger issue I have is how the paid dlc is incorrect and a bit of a mess. I don't blame the devs as they have done a great job, its just ironic that the team were forced to leave things unfixed due to time constraints on a release.. kinda like how sonic 3 was initially crunched and had to be split in two hence the S&K split! The game is great tho. the devs included things like big arms into the main sonic 3 route for sonic, added new ingame scenes/animations as well as the nice animated stuff. I truely hope given some time and the chance to patch the game this will be as awesome as sonic mania was! hope Frontiers isn't as rushed!

[@cavisualproductions4406]

I was in high school when Sonic 3 originally came out, and the music I heard then is the music I am used to hearing. Though I had listened to the alternative tracks in this video, it does not sound the same at all especially the Ice Cap and Launch Base zone. Carnival Night had the actual feel of the carnival setting with the original music. So for me, I will stick with the original release with the original music.

[@qorgan3268]

If this man didn't explain this to me I would still be looking at my switch screen playing this wondering "wtf why is my childhood just ruined?"

[@MrSkysenGames]

The songs sound good enough on their own but, at least in my opinion, they don't really fit the level moods quite as well as what was originally given to us. Like...I don't look at Launch Base Zone and think "happy bubbly vibes." What was originally given to us was upbeat, but still had that tech base sound.

[@ReijiArisu1211]

Back when I played Sonic 3 for the first time, I always thought that Ice Cap, Launch Base and Carnival Night didn't feel like Sonic musics. Not like I didn't like those, but I couldn't help but think I was playing a difference game. The prototype songs ( As they are Sonic Team compositions ) feels much more like what we were used in the past games.

[@ReijiArisu1211]

@@MRSHREKJR Even though it was created by the guy who would compose the rest of the soundtrack for Sonic 3 + Sonic & Knuckles. Seems legit.

[@noname-jt6kl]

@@ReijiArisu1211 ice cap mj is much more fitting. The other 2 I can agree with you on.

[@prestonanderson1719]

I think the music changed in the PC port and origins is because they are "ports" and not emulation. I'm not sure but I heard that SEGA would of been allowed to still have the music in it if there's nothing different with the rom so I think it would have to be the original rom

[@KayFleetwayMS04]

While the replacement tracks for Origins have grown on me a bit, they're nowhere near as good as the prototype iterations imo. Something tells me the versions Jun used as a basis might've been from the initial demo tapes or something similar, since they do sound kinda similar to the MIDI versions that did get used in the old PC collection (CNZ in particular sounds super similar). With all that being said, this video was still pretty good and informative! The whole MJ music conspiracy for S3&K is easily one of the most interesting things about the game

[@stanzacosmi]

Yea. They were from the demo tapes as confirmed on twitter.

[@evdestroy5304]

I feel like it's worth mentioning that Jun Senoue is credited as part of the Sound Team and *not* as being one of the Music Composers in the Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles credits. Could be wrong, but it seems like he actually was the one who converted the songs and wasn't a composer?

[@chantingmammal]

Yeah, and He composed the prototype Soundtrack

[@evdestroy5304]

@@chantingmammal Did you read *anything* in this comment before you replied?

[@Vincentvalentinezxa]

@@evdestroy5304 supposedly his only contribution was the act clear jingle on sonic 3, it may be that, but it wouldnt make sense tbh

[@tigglesbruh]

If they were so keen on rearranging the prototype music, they shoulda had Tee Lopes do it. I'd love to hear his take on those tracks (using FM only of course, although I think it would've been super cool if they had him modernize/mania-fy all of the music as an added bonus)

[@some_body_else3636]

11:42 the boss track is actually a 90's track! this track was found unused in the files of sonic 3d blast (genesis) and was repurposed in sonic 4 ep |

[@justinrush7463]

Ice Cap I think is actually better as the re-arrangement. But Carnival Night is UNFORGIVABLE.

[@maomax8922]

Well, I think the exact opposite, I think the icecap re-arrangement is straight up, worse, but carnival night is... ok

[@noname-jt6kl]

No no no Ice cap is way worse. Carnival night is cool either way.

[@Leonard_Wolf_2056]

For what its worth, if Jun got his hands on it, you would have nightmares about it until you die. Circus world was heavily compressed. Meaning Jun would have to do a full remake instead of a remaster. Do you really want to hear what a Jun remake of circus world aka "Jam" would sound like?

[@dancommadirty]

Great video I just have to say and I mean this with love because whenever the camera switches back to you I remember you're not but whenever it's just your narration over B-roll I keep thinking you're MatPat

[@inactivepleasegoaway]

fun fact: the songs were probably changed in the sonic & knuckles collection because they may have gotten an earlier prototype build than the november 1993 prototype to base their songs on. minor song differences retained in the november 1993 prototype we have can be heard in the sonic & knuckles collection midis (such as mushroom hill zone act 1 not having an intro)

[@inactivepleasegoaway]

ALSO some people on sonicretro have theorized that the replaced songs in sonic origins (besides the s3 super theme) are directly taken from this earlier prototype the sonic & knuckles collection used, as with some songs like launch baze zone's songs, simply muting sound channels from the november 1993 prototype version of the song makes it almost identical with the sonic origins version.

[@mechajay3358]

As Sonic and Michael Jackson fan, it's a little disappointing the tracks that work on won't be in Origins. The prototypes are fine but don't match up with his and Brad Buxer's music.

[@zxandr.6501]

I am now trying to adjust to a world where carnival night zone sounded like the beta version.

[@keanuorange690]

Because of D-Pad's research on Michael Jackson's involvement in Sonic 3's soundtrack, is one of the main reasons I was excited to play Origins 😩

[@JamOfCyanide]

Good video but, Jun Senoue actually wasn't responsible for how the Origins replacement tracks sound, when they said he was making songs for Origins they meant the super theme, which sounds like Sonic 4 The prototype tracks seem to be from an even earlier than 1103 build of sonic 3, the reason being that the midis seen in the pc port are actually the original demo versions of the sonic 3 soundtrack before it was put into the genesis. This means that the songs heard in Origins are earlier conversions and that's why they sound unfinished, it also explains why Icecap Zone Act 2 and the Competition Menu sound the same as in the prototype, they were likely finished around the time Also I do have the sources for this information (it's still speculation but it makes more sense when you look into the songs even deeper) but KZbin is weird with links it deleted a previous post I did

[@lambdacore3246]

Late, but I highly doubt this: Tracks in S&KC are pretty sloppy, yes, but we don’t know anything about how Sega internally handled demo tapes and their associated midi files (if any were produced at all) from 1992 - 1993 when the majority of the music would have been composed. Blue Sphere tossed a massive wrench into things as it was reused from a cancelled 1992 arcade game, and that means we can’t in good faith assign a general date for a lot of the tracks. Zones with two acts I’d say are safe, except for Launch Base whose acts are oddly distinct from one another, act 2 not necessarily sounding like a direct remix of act 1. Furthermore, in Blue Sphere’s case, the track wasn’t pulled from a lost demo but was almost 1:1 ported from SegaSonic Bros, and who can say if they had any demo tapes. You also had the Sonic and Knuckles album releasing prior, which similarly had brand new midi arrangements, so the S&KC music was likely arranged specifically for S&KC with the prototype tracks at that point probably not used due to copyrights issues, but instead because of the general midi standard preventing the use of custom samples necessary for the tracks. I believe it’s safe to assume the tracks in Origins aside from the super theme are from earlier versions of these tracks though, and were probably directly recorded from a genesis

[@extremmefan7305]

I'm surprised MJ himself didn't just, go by an anonymous nickname in the credits, as was common in the 80s/90s when they didn't have the space to put full names. Also idk man, the rearranged Ice Cap kinda slaps imo; it sounds very MegaMan-like (specifically Mega Man 7 imo). Carnival Night though... yea, idk.

[@pengil3]

I don’t mind that they changed the music, I’m just mad that instead of using the prototype tracks, they took the PC tracks and shoved them in a midi to genesis converter

[@pengil3]

I know sunoe rearranged the music, but that’s damn what it sounds like

[@L337M4573RK]

The prototype and rearrangement tracks aren't bad, but I'd still take MJ's tracks over what Sonic Origins gave us. The track for Super Sonic in S3&K was also rearranged, and the original tracks for Sonic 3's Mini Bosses and End Credits are also missing from the game entirely! The Sonic 3 End Credits track was a decent banger, as well as Ice Cap and Launch Base, and they will certainly be missed...until I replay the original games on an emulator. (I'll see myself out...)

[@WumboJumbo96]

Please get the PC version if you can. There are already easy to install mods available to fix the music as well as some other issues.

[@NotMyRealName6]

If enough people actually refused to buy any ports of Sonic 3 without the original tracks, Sega would stop making ports without the original tracks.

[@aidanpalmer4720]

Damn you copyright holder, damn you!

[@MANGOM1LK]

i tend to prefer the prototype compositions over the Jackson ones, but the fact that Origins REGRESSES what was decent but clearly unfinished on the prototype side really rubs me the wrong way. i couldn't have purchased origins on release anyway because of my financial situation, but it's incredibly frustrating that sega keeps mishandling stuff like this. i've heard lots of reports about origins being riddled with bugs, too

[@rhapsody2612]

"ft Michael Jackson" Dude revived MJ just for this video

[@ChargedTheHedgehog]

1:04 fun fact, these are the prototype sound tracks before Mj got in.

[@The_AuraMaster]

The games are fine, people just seem to think that because a few tracks were changed back to how they were planned in the 90s that it's suddenly a bad game. It's not like nowadays they can just call up Michael and be like "hey, can we use that Sonic 3 music you helped out with?" Like, he's dead. How are they gonna get permission from a dead guy?

[@Diogo85]

That's the gaming community in a nutshell. They find one problem with a game and automatically think the whole game is bad. I remember when Pokemon fans called Sword and Shield bad because of a poorly textured tree. It was ridiculous.

[@The_AuraMaster]

@@Diogo85 it's not bad because "oh tree look weird" it's bad because the story wasn't good, they forced exp all on you, and it was overly easy to the point I could start a new game and beat the post game within 24 hours or less without any of my Pokémon fainting. My Cinderace, Lucario, and Corviknight is all I needed to beat Leon and none of them fainted. I basically sweeped Leon with half a team.

[@Diogo85]

@@The_AuraMaster I understand that and everyone is entitled to their opinion but some Pokemon fans were literally calling SW&SH a bad game simply because of a poorly textured tree and not because of gameplay, story or anything like that. The toxicity is why I don't associate with fandoms much anymore.

[@The_AuraMaster]

@@Diogo85 yeah, I'll say those are bad games. I just won't say it's because of some zelda ocarina of time looking trees (I don't even mean that as an insult either, I like old stuff, ocarina of time is my favorite zelda game) but yeah. It's sad to grow up and see your favorite game series have a toxic fanbase. I love Sonic and Pokémon, but damn the communities can't even be happy for 24 hours.

[@RealHyperHedgehog]

@@Diogo85 You think that’s bad. Remember when the Genfivers called Legends Arceus (a straight up masterpiece of a Pokémon game) bad because of graphics that were shown in a trailer. Acting like “game footage is not final” doesn’t exist. And they still delude themselves into thinking the game looks like that while also ignoring the great story, the endless fun of catching Pokémon, cool battle system, and all those important things that make a game great. Now the Genfivers are doing the same thing with Scarlet and Violent, the cycle never ends. I really hate the modern day gaming rage culture.

[@KalokesMysteries]

9:51 Aww, come on, man. I usually appreciate the effort and research you put into these videos, but you're using the worst versions of the PC tracks. Some KZbin channels have uploaded the tracks using sound hardware of the time, like the Sound Blaster AWE64 or the Roland Sound Canvas. At least they paint the "MIDI" usage in a much better light. I grew up with these tracks, and I love them each. Especially CN Act 2 and LB Act 2. Their respective prototype versions sound gorgeous.

[@Leonard_Wolf_2056]

Preach!

[@radioffIine]

It’s funny with this port in particular because it makes the Sonic Classic Collection on DS the only official way to play the game on handheld with the MJ music in-tact. All other commercial means have been made obsolete.

[@Celtic1020]

It's good to have a new video for fans on this topic, but you have got to give credit to the D-Pad who actually uncovered a lot of info.

[@Ben_Hammond]

I don't think it's quite right to immediately assume that the old PC port faced similar legal issues. It might be that those tasty little sounds of the MJ tracks simply couldn't be reproduced on the Midi format, or perhaps whoever developed the old PC port were simply given the wrong soundtrack to work from.

[@Leonard_Wolf_2056]

Angel island act 2 sounds like the earlier build, all depressed, so it is possible that they were given the wrong soundtrack to work with. Though, I have to wonder... What did MJ's team use to.... Transport the tracks they worked on? Was it a CD? did his team also work on compressing the tracks to make it fit for the genesis?

[@not4nikiii]

11:41 I think you chose the wrong example here as that same track was unused in sonic 3d blast, with jun also having composed it and sounds great.

[@abnormality3345]

"ft. Michael Jackson" YO HES ALIVE LESS GO GUYS, now we have icey crap zoned!!!!!!111!!!11!!1

[@CaptainUltimaFTW]

While I feel like the rearrangement of carnival zone is not as good as the original prototype, I prefer the new rendition of Ice Cap Zone for sure but I can see how people could prefer the original sound of it. That being said, they don't come close to that Michael Jackson style of the original release versions.

[@Jellyman4]

5:07 Transition smooth af.

[@alexthe1115]

I just downloaded a mod to fix the music that got replaced

[@ShakShak1999]

Neat

[@star7communicator]

My first introduction to S3&K was through the infamous 1997 PC Pack. I wonder why the original OST was cleared for release in Mega Collection, then never again?

[@Tharja-iBW]

For some reason SEGA can re-release the game when it is a re-release of the same game but not when it's a recreation of an old game. Technically speaking it's a different game and therefore have to pay royalties again like they did with Sonic 3&K

[@radiokunio3738]

@@Tharja-iBW As far as I see it once a artist is dead, thier work should fall in public domain, I don't see why people who didn't even work on said media should hold rights over it.

[@star7communicator]

@@radiokunio3738 You can thank Disney and Sonny Bono for that 🙄

[@bluebaron6858]

@@Tharja-iBW it's not that. ATgames, the plug in play Genesis people, said that Sega barred them from using sonic 3 roms for their console releases ever again.

[@Tharja-iBW]

@@bluebaron6858 Yet they have re-release the title on other hardware before including Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles. Sonic 3 is available on the Xbox and PSN, Sonic and Knuckles was released on Xbox arcade but at some point even before origins was removed and sonic 3& Knuckles in its whole was released on PC as part of the Sega classic games collection (but not on the switch version of the collection weirdly enough). Idk maybe there is a rule stating that they can't release the game on consoles and since PC isn't technically a console that's a work around. Why they're banning Sonic 3&K on AT games is probably a different matter since the games have been re-released before on console a couple times after 1994.

[@DaRaginLombax]

On a side note regarding music in Somic Origins, the Knuckles Chaotix soundtrack is all over the place mislabeled XD

[@ritaandrunt5767]

Just when we thought the controversy behind sonic 3s music was gone and in the clear but unfortunately that isn't the case

[@alieneko_nyo]

7:00 idk what this was but it cured my depression

[@MisturrSkyhigh]

launch base's theme sounds like the friggin' president's about' to arrive

[@nickplj12]

in the sonic & knuckles collection pc port, midis were used for music playback (even the opl version) and CNZ, LBZ, and ICZ all had samples in them and could not be used in midi. though, for sonic origins i don’t know why

[@KodaKola2]

Micheal Jackson’s involvement in this video was the best part

[@stargazerlaurent6780]

Michael Jackson did no wrong

[@budgetcoinhunter]

I'm pretty sure the Release vs. Proto music situation comes down to _how_ the game is re-released. If it's simply a ROM dump, then it's obviously going to have the Release soundtrack, as patching the Proto tracks back in would be an absolute pain in the ass to do, requiring either a hack, or external patching data bundled in with the emulator. A full port, such as Origins or Windows, ends up with the Proto release. For PC, this worked out alright, as _none_ of the Proto songs use DAC samples not readily available in general MIDI (this was considered the strongest evidence for the Proto music being used on Windows in the first place). Finally, our Proto's soundtrack was in the process of being switched from one 'Universal Sound Bank' to another. This helps account for the discrepancy between what we hear on the Genesis vs. in Origins.

[@Shadowofzero]

Sonic 3 being included in this collection was the primary reason I was interested in Sonic Origins in the first place. With its removal of some iconic songs, I completely lost interest in the game. On top of that, I’ve seen that the game has had some quality control issues. I don’t play on PC, so I can’t install any mods to the game. If the original music is somehow restored, and the bugs fixed, I’ll then buy the game.

[@ericfisher9513]

Lol it’s hard to believe that sega denies it when there is different music in all the version in the following versions. No wonder sega failed in the hardware industry they thought their fans was stupid

[@alternatenican]

No way Michael Jackson came back from the dead just to be featured and collab with you on your video? No way real!1!11!!

[@discardedbiscuit5449]

Honestly I think it's just as likely the beta tracks were simply sent to the Sonic & Knuckles Collection team by accident.

[@1upGaming1up]

While I was not a big fan of the Prototype/Sonic and Knuckles Collection rearrangements I think They have more of a Sonic feel than the Michael Jackson versions. yes Sonic Mega Collection, Sonic Gems Collection the Wii Virtual Console and Sonic Classic Collection on DS had the MJ version but some sacrifices had to be made, I'm just happy to see Sonic 3 and Knuckles get rereleased again (being it's My favorite Sonic game of all time) but IMO the rearrangements sounds better than the Midi versions

[@Vexxqnn]

Sonic 3&K music without MJ’s music is like chicken without seasoning on it.

[@spookyscaryman4420]

me: sees the title me: *W H A T T H E F U -*

[@kirbymario2633]

If I were to guess why the proto tracks were used in sonic origins, it would probably have to do with the proto leak. Since Sega is known for somewhat listening to their fans, it’s fair to say that they probably knew about the proto and thought they could just used those tracks because people were given time to like them.

[@treythornton19]

I love Sonic 3 & Knuckles with Michael Jackson tracks, but these tracks from early and now is different. It gives me a lot of confusion.

[@Simon_Electric]

SEGA: We didn't use original release soundtrack from Sonic 3. Sonic Fans: So you have chosen death?

[@DaisyFan1]

Sega could just buy the music if that's what they gotta do to use it. But they love money too much, and don't care about us fans.

[@Estaguy24]

So what’s your opinion on this ? I personally think that it’s a waste of music, the rearranged versions are like muffled versions of the OG ones

[@bluebaron6858]

I would not be surprised if Sega never paid royalties to the MJ team after the initial release.

[@jamesoffutt2801]

And you're right, June 25th was a total disservice, to our pop and r&b hero. Oh God Sega. Could have did something special. You had it with space channel 5, and Sonic 3 and Michael Jackson's moonwalker before all that. But well things happen.

[@Lunatic89097]

Maybe I'm spoiled by Sonic 3 Complete and A.I.R., but I'd like the ability to alter the jingles to fit the sections of S3&K and to use the unused Super theme over what we have now.

[@rynobehnke8289]

Said unused theme from Sonic and Knuckles collection is actually used in Origins for the Blue Spheres mode.

[@FLYNN_TAGGART]

FYI the instruments in the PC version depend on your sound card. If you listen to recordings from a good one, it's equally as good if not better than the Genesis ones. I like the one on the Church of Kondo channel.

[@jadedheartsz]

yeah my PC as a kid had a decent sound card and it sounded just fine.