The Sovereign God and the Free Will of Man - John Lennox

An honest and Biblical answer.

[@BoylenInk]

His reply here tends to lean heavily on mystery and our finite minds but he has more recently composed a book, Determined to Believe?, which more clearly articulates his view. It’s good to see more Christian leaders waking up to the need to respond to the resurgence of Theistic Determinism in the church today.

[@unitewithch]

First time listening to him, and wow, what an amazing response to some very complicated subjects...he didn't even get into the data points but merely hit the ideas that people who don't believe in Jesus, hold the subject to such a high standard of "proof", merely displays their unreasonableness with the simple idea that such a god could exist....

[@newroman116]

2 Peter 3:9 "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". So his word says he wants everyone to repent (not perish). On the other hand I see the life of Paul, where the Lord himself intervened in Pauls life directly and Paul obeyed / believed. So in a way Paul was destined to be an apostle whereas he as Saul was determined to act against anyone called a christian. I think that there are exceptions where God truly intervenes with people and directly brings them to believe in Him.

[@sunshinegirl1967]

I now see neither Calvinism nor Arminianism got it right. They BOTH have good points, but each one brings up only part of the whole equation. This and Ravi Zacharias' explanation are the best ones I've ever heard. We have to hold both the sovereignty of God and man's free will in tension together, realizing we are finite beings trying (and failing) to understand the Infinite One. We simply cannot fully understand Him while in this physical being. Now we know in part, but then, face to face, we will finally understand.

[@Luicovarrubias]

God is sovereign because he give as to choose and yet even when we didn’t choose Him at the end we find out that there is nothing better than His love and mercy. If we have the ability to create life and not the ability of being loved by free will is called robots but because God is perfect and he has the ability to show the world that there is nothing better to have him in our side Jhon 3:16 is so clear how can people can believe on selection.

[@stevewebb1221]

answer really is simple. Sovereign God who establishes the sovereign plan of redemption has made a sovereign DECREE that "...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." God made this decree to the depraved men who cannot respond on their own. Enter the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said that he was coming to convict/convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. That is in John chapter 16. In II Cor 6:2 Holy Spirit says that he will help the sinner in the day of salvation - this is the time when the Spirit convicts the sinner. This is when, only when, the sinner have the means to exercise his free will to accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@Matthew4Nineteen]

I dig Lennox, the first week I was saved the man who witnessed to me gave me a debate CD he did with Dawkins, and I was simultaneously encouraged and embarrassed for Dawkins who had his clock so thoroughly cleaned it was like a dad teaching his haughty child a lesson. It's interesting when he says "how it works I don't know" inside the 3:20 mark or so, when if he read 2 Timothy 2:24-35 and Philippians 1:29 he would know. I suspect he's read that often but simply hasn't connected the dots. We all have a Genesis 3 intellect, blind spots abound in all our theology I'm sure. Lennox is a great philosopher, but like most Arminians he puts philosophy ahead of theology and has the model backwards as an apologist. In reality even in having it backwards he's miles ahead of Ravi and WLC in my opinion because as we hear in his energy analogy he's more a of a presuppositionalist than even he would admit or perhaps than he realizes. He always does well in challenging his opponents presuppositions and does so in a very gentle and simple manner, which I can't help but admire.

[@Lala_Land551]

I've only seen bits and pieces of Lennox debating with Dawkins. Any suggestions?

[@rubiks6]

Matthew4Nineteen - I don't know if your still around. Both of your scripture references seem to be wrong or else I am missing completely what you are trying to say. II Timothy 2 ends at verse 26.

[@bobfree1226]

God showed early in genesis that man Had a Free Will,by setting a tree in the garden, otherwise why did he do it? God commands all men Everywhere to Repent ,so we all have Grace to respond to the light given.As Paul says no man has an Excuse.Free Will .

[@Romans10vs9]

Thank you, WT.

[@hellavadeal]

i love Mr. Lennox. Math is the language of God.

[@hellavadeal]

@HillDueceua I don't see math that way. Sterile ? I see it has a reliable way to understand nature, that is exciting to me.

[@hellavadeal]

@HillDueceua " I Am One " That is a start.

[@hellavadeal]

@HillDueceua , You are starting to get it.

[@shanestrickland5006]

Well in the book of Romans it tell's you God makes vessels for honner and dishonner. Then it tells you why he creat's people for honner and dishonner. Then it ask you a rhetorical question who can resist his will. The answeare is you can not. So their goes your freewill.

[@notallgarbage]

Bad logic Shane Strickland... Jonas resisted God... God broke Jonas determination... God did not override the thought process of Jonas like we do a firmware update on an electronic device... God broke Jonas DETERMINATION... stop leaping with illogical conclusions...

[@sunshinegirl1967]

Hi Shane, here's the verse that rounds out your explanation. 2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

[@sunshinegirl1967]

So it's NOT just God's will, man has a responsibility too. Please think about this.

[@pilum3705]

Honestly me with my simple mind always imagined it like this: We with Free Will have as good as infinite possible choices for each action. Well God knows how every possible option would play out, but in the end it is us, that decide which of these options actually become true. But this is backed by no evidence and is simple the musings of my mind.

[@qaz-fi1id]

Its called Molinism you're idea here, check it out, you may find it interesting. Well "middle knowledge" to be more exact which is part of the Molinist philosophy.

[@pilum3705]

Michael Hoey Thanks, a difference I see though is that in the “middle truth” God is the one that actualizes events, while in what I said it is the human who does so.

[@AL-ri6bk]

Mhhh The question backs. Stumped truths

[@andrettanylund830]

I love how John explains things. He is a wonderful man of God also. God bless him and keep him and make his face to shine upon him.

[@blackpope1725]

beautiful

[@PatrickHegarty3]

Did you notice he misquoted Matthew 23 verse 37, as is often the case? It is not "how often I would have gathered you but you were not willing", but "how often I would have gathered YOUR CHILDREN" but you were not willing.

[@stubowl1]

yeah. the object is the religious leaders who were leading their 'children' (the folks in Jerusalem) away from God. I used to go an Arminian church in Northern Ireland that had Johns brother Gilbert Lennox as pastor. Learnt a lot about God, despite being Arminian.

[@BoylenInk]

Whether they were resisting God’s will for themselves or their children makes no difference. The point against the Calvinistic interpretation of God’s Sovereignty is that God’s will was resisted.

[@PatrickHegarty3]

Many people resist God but the point is that ultimately God is able to overcome that resistance in the lives of those He chooses.

[@BoylenInk]

Patrick Hegarty Are you saying that you think the point of Mt. 23:37 is that God overcomes the resistance of those he chooses?

[@Gaminglord123]

Nathan Boyle, If by "those he chooses" you mean people pre-destined from eternity past to salvation (as opposed to those pre-destined from eternity past to damnation), then no. God's election of his people is primarily a covenant thing and thus deals with people groups, not individuals. The Israelites were God's chosen people, who had to "choose this day whom you will serve" and thereby gain life. God is longsuffering and faithful to his promises, bearing with his people despite their sinfulness and waywardness. So yes, God does indeed overcome resistance to his will. He wishes all to be saved, but not all will be because free will is preserved and not impeded by God. Sin taints our free will be enslaving us to our sins and passions but does not destroy it. In the new covenant, God's people now consists of people from all nations, the "new Israel" elected by God to salvation through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ that redeems us from sin and death and their consequences such as the bondage of the will. Due to sin, all are resistant to God, which is why salvation is a work of his grace, otherwise, no one would be saved. But free will is still essential. Concerning individual salvation, God exercises his divine foreknowledge within the covenant; he elects his people as a whole, ordaining them to be saved through a synergism of election and free will, and also knows who will and will not receive the free gift. As Lennox says, exactly how this works is a mystery, but that it works is clearly espoused in the Bible.

[@timias6040]

The problem I find is that people have real difficulty in understanding the boundaries of human free will and sovereignty of God. As we cannot see or know everything nor have the power to allow or forcefully stop any and every action of any created being, we can’t possible know what is occurring on a day to day basis. When God has allowed us to choose a certain thing of our own volition or when He has directly intervened without our knowing. We have biblical examples of men trying to go against God’s will (Abraham, Jonah, Moses, Balaam etc) but God always makes sure that His will is done. He intervenes in many ways until all the men mentioned give way to His will. We also have God’s providence, where even bad things can be wisely ordained by God for the good of those that love Him. God doesn’t leave anything to chance because chance can’t exist when you know every outcome and have the power to affect it before it even happens. So, in a fallen state, born from Adam, man’s ways and evil heart only leads him to death and eternal damnation. He is like a boat being pulled down river into the sea, without sail or oars to fight the current. Yes he may use the rudder (human free will) to turn left or right; he may even decide to carry out his life about faced, but never can he reach the place where the river began, not of His own nature or strength. Then God, according to the pleasure of His will, provides for some of these children of Adam. He ,as a demonstration of His mercy and grace, gives birth to some of these beings, creating a new being with a new heart. He abides in them and with them through the Holy Spirit. Not only does God turn the boat around, He also gives it a lovely new sail and blows into it. The sail and the wind now mean that whatever the man decides to do, go left or right, the boat will go upstream back to the source. It is true that the man will feel the constant drag of the undercurrent (Sin and flesh) but eternally grateful to the one who gave him the sail and who blows into It. That is, the fallen seed of Adam will always choose to turn from God and has no ability to do anything else. It’s free will is severely limited in terms of salvation or saving himself. The new creature likewise is now limited as to its eternal destination and is a slave to righteousness. His nature has been changed and God’s determined and active will shall make it so. Nothing can separate this child of God from His father, and definitely not something as weak as the limited free will of dust, I mean man.

[@villarrealmarta6103]

Tim James Man’s will is in bondage until God sets us free.

[@livingwater7580]

the word believe in the gospel of John is free will, why would God tell you to believe if you are incapable. God speaks very clear when he says he who believes is not condemned but he who believes not is condemned already. believing is free will your comment is PHILOSOPHY and GNOSTICISM not at all biblical. CHRISTIANITY

[@StephenLoney]

@@villarrealmarta6103 Amen! I recently came to see this in Romans 7: I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. - Romans 7:21-23 It seems to me that Christ sets the will of man free from slavery. The man who desires to be free cannot free himself. But he does acknowledge that he is indeed a slave and needs to be freed. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ - Luke 18:13 Israel was set free from slavery in Egypt; free to worship God. Yet, not all continued in belief. Blessings, brothers.

[@villarrealmarta6103]

@@livingwater7580 God’s word is the enabling power to help us believe. That’s why Paul calls the Gospel in Romans 1:16-17 the power of God unto all who believe. He also further states that in Christ we were chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. If you Google the word chosen online you can see all the places where the emphasis is always on God choosing man not the other way around. Also it isn’t something for our heads to grasp entirely, rather our hearts are to embrace this gracious revelation that God in his foreknowledge would choose anyone from the cesspool of sin we are living in. The call to believe is always extended but the mystery is this, only those who have been chosen will respond. I don’t pretend to grasp that fully since I’m mortal and not as knowledgeable as God, but I can thank him for giving me this special revelation and to take hold of it since he considered me worthy to hear it in the first place.

[@villarrealmarta6103]

@@StephenLoney yes well said

[@WilliamTyndale1]

[@Justchemicals]

Saw the title... got Matthew Steele on my heart and mind.

[@Justchemicals]

And now I've watched/listened... I dig Lennox... reminds me of my dad.

[@intelligentdesign-evolutio5841]

"If we do not understand the nature of energy, how could we understand the nature of God." Good answer. The sovereign God is not all powerful, but relatively all powerful. We humans have some power and freewill ourselves.

[@simonjohn5059]

IntelligentDesign-Evolution-God HERESY

[@intelligentdesign-evolutio5841]

@@simonjohn5059 Not heresy but common sense.

[@intelligentdesign-evolutio5841]

@@impattman2199 Yes, he would have to allow things to happen. He allows Evil because it is necessary for free will which is necessary for Love. I forget who came up with this profound idea. Eventually Evil will be cast down and Love will remain. -- Kenneth, from North Texas

[@neilbishop9280]

Case in point: Is Jesus a man? Or God? There is evidence for both, so we believe both. Does God choose me? Or do I choose Him? There is evidence for both, so I believe both.

[@cupido4amor]

Jesus was God in eternity and was a man during that tiny moment in history. God choose you even before he laid the foundation of the earth and you submitted to him calling at the right moment which he has ordained since eternity. So there is a monumental difference in God's work and our response to it. Bottom line is give all all glory to God which is what a true worship is.

[@ellen823ful]

I looked up LIGHT in the encyclopedia. It is only understood by its effect on things. GOD is similar. One experiences His effect on the creation He made.. Light did not create itself!!! Get it?

[@MyPhilemon6site]

To me it’s rather simple….God is fully sovereign but when he made man, He (God) chose to limit His sovereignty when He gave man the first spoken and written promises to distinguish Himself from all other god’s who man create who are “capricious”. Therefore God sovereignly created man with freewill to choose in receiving or rejecting His promises because it declares that “whatsoever a man soweth he shall also reap” good or bad. In this God does not violate His main attribute of Love over a fallen creation who is given the opportunity to redeem themselves to their creator.

[@SpaceFrawg]

Good stuff. ( I did NOT rate this video in the negative :)

[@allenmorgan4309]

The answer is a great mystery and I will tell it now but even after you read this it will still remain a mystery to you. Unless God opens a persons eyes to see they shall remain in the dark. This is the truth. God would have all men to be saved therefore all men shall be saved. You might say what of the unrepentant sinner and the reply is that truly only God exists and they that are the slaves of sin cannot remain but only the Son shall remain. Self does not actually exist in the absolute sense. In the end all that is lost is that which never was. What we call reality is not real in the ultimate sense. We are living in a story that has been written by God and in the end everything falls into its proper place and all there will be is perfection for truly only perfection actually exists for God is perfection itself. As the apostle Paul states in Acts 17 "in Him we live and have our being."

[@VoDitas]

He avoided the question that was asked with his own questions, i had expected better of him.

[@narrow-gateministries7645]

VoDitas : I fully agree. He answered much better when debating Hitchens

[@blackpope1725]

ur mind is 2 limited

[@rubiks6]

He did not avoid the question at all. He clearly stated and demonstrated why he was unable to answer the question and yet believe that Jesus is both Goᴅ and Man. You apparently did not understand the inability of men to answer the deep 'how' questions. (condensing and paraphrasing) "Do you believe in energy?" "Yes." "What is energy?" "I cannot say but it has great explanatory power." "Shall I disregard you as a physicist because you cannot tell me what energy is? You believe in energy don't you?"

[@Jonathan-mr8pz]

rubiks6 yup I agree w u n he did answer it

[@grindelo5868]

Hey, what is energy

[@hifpif7470]

Short answer: don't know.

[@ellieseo9074]

And that's actually the wisest answer sometimes :)

[@johnsonjohnnyjohn787]

So much people focus on the fact that we do not know HOW something works instead of realizing that all we need to know is THAT it works.

[@kylefromthewood8829]

I pose a better question. Satan has seen much more than us, knows god's full glory and still chose to rebel against. So why hasn't god just shown himself to us - it can't subvert our free will because it didn't subverts Satan's. So if free will is the answer to why god doesn't just show himself, it's not a relevant answer.

[@GODHATESADOPTION]

Jesus came and showed himself and we killed him.

[@GODHATESADOPTION]

God reveals himself all the time.

[@garmarrod]

God told Moses that no man can see him and live. He is too holy to show himself to mere sinners made out of dust.

[@philblagden]

Free will is not a biblical concept. Responsibility for our own sinful attitudes, thoughts and actions is. We are all slaves to sin according to Jesus, yet He still reserves the right to judge us for our wilful rebellion. John Lennox is at odds with the bible here. He said in another speech on the same topic that God "took a risk when He created the universe". That is unbiblical and makes God appear to be not all-knowing and reckless. I assume the risk he is talking about is putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. So God took a gamble that loads of people might end up in hell and He lost the gamble? I can see why an Arminian would say this, but it dishonours God's character. Jesus was the lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. Lennox is a great apologist but hasn't got a great grasp on theology and I'm not sure where he stands on inerrancy since he rejects a six day creation.

[@notallgarbage]

I don't think Mr Lennox meant to insult God...

[@bobfree1226]

Really -THen Why did God set a tree in the garden? if we have no free will? He did that to show conclusively that man has a free choice of course not totally free-we cant do everything.Why does God command ALL men Everywhere to Repent if we cannot.Why does Jesus plead with many including Pharsees to turn to him or you will die in your sins. Free will is all over the place. cmon now.

[@phaturtha216]

@@bobfree1226 He taught us that we can choose who we serve - either God or man, and if the latter then sin and death. But fear not, God has sealed the deal, all will be restored, as per Book of Revelation. Salvation is too important for God to leave in man's hands.

[@bobfree1226]

@@phaturtha216 Paul thats an opinion and your a man.GOD is in charge of all things.He gave Man the Gospel.and in that Gospel are all thats Necessary for Salvation,a Gift to ALL that Believe.God commands ALL men Everywhere to Repent.Greek metanoia to make a u turn in life, and put are Trust in God an not on ourselves.I did that 50 years ago.God throws man a life rope when he is Drowning an when we reach out and grab it.we Are Saved!! We did not save ourselves,no way. He did it all. We simply as Paul told the JAILER ,who asked what must I DO to recieve eternal Life.Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. PAUL underscores this very point, when he says God appoints the times and Places where we ALL should live,And He did that so we might Seek and find Him, though HE is not far from any of US. it can not be any clearer.so many verses negate that calvanistic premise.

[@phaturtha216]

@@bobfree1226 Not exactly sure what you found so offensive about my last comment. All I said is only God saves and ultimately all flesh will be redeemed by grace. I'm a universalist not a Calvinist.

[@LandB73]

It is impossible for a person to have free will. Because that means you have a choice to do one thing or the other however no one's going to do something that they don't want to do you're always going to do what you want to do or what you think is right however we are a slave to sin before we are saved so we'll never want to do righteousness we will never want to be saved until God Saves us which is his will not ours

[@jelewis365]

Jonathan Edwards lays this all out. The Will Determines the Will is Edwards' conclusion. Which puts us in an ever descending spiral of sin because our Will in sinful.

[@jonathanchan7395]

Lennox is not the best person to address this issue. He doesn't address it with solid exegesis of pertinent biblical passages such as Genesis 50:20. Giving mostly philosophical answers is not adequate.

[@kurtgundy]

For those readers who say God's sovereignty and human responsibility can't be reconciled, here is the bottom line. God is sovereign and i am responsible. I dont fully understand it. Its a mystery and a paradox, not a contradiction, because this is what we see in Scripture. (Acts 4:27-28). We can't reject this just because we cant understand it perfectly, anymore than we reject the Trinity because we cant understand it perfectly. There are many mysteries in God. How did God create the universe out of nothing? If you can't explain it to me should I reject God as creator?

[@martinnorman2579]

So can we have free will

[@abckids3476]

How does a pastor say he takes the Bible seriously then misquotes Matthew 23:37 leaving out entire words words from the verse? When a pastor changes a verse to fit what he wants it to mean I quit listening.

[@lewismartin1534]

ABC Kids I don't think he misquoted

[@abckids3476]

Lewis Martin If I try to quote what you say and I leave out words or add words that change the meaning would that be misquoting you?

[@lewismartin1534]

ABC Kids that's true but if he did that's why you study your bible. I would still give him the benefit of the doute and as Christians we should not tear down a brother for a misquoted anything

[@abckids3476]

Lewis Martin I'm not tearing down I'm reproofing which is what the Bible says it's good for. I wouldn't call the man an unbeliever. I will call him a brother. But teachers have an extra responsibility to get it right. My language might have been a little harsh though I'm sorry.

[@lewismartin1534]

ABC Kids then I stand corrected

[@christinedoe8192]

I know God is supernatural, I know the Bible is real, I know the prophecies are nearly all done, the thing with supernatural and we don't know how God spoke the universe into existence, I think it is supernaturally possible for us to be kinda avatars doing actions we are delusional about doing, because how do you know you are free willing if supernatural u could be blinded somehow thinking your doing free will and your not, hence supernatural. I love and beleive in the Lord Jesus but sometimes I feel in a catch 22, he loves me, you just have to trust in God and eternal life, hence hope and faith of a child. I hate the way I think, I think myself into fear and hate to say it smiling assassin thoughts, so in my catch 22 mind a pray to Lord Jesus not to be mad in my thinking and give me wisdom to answer my thoughts, cause I have also thought when we get thru this stage and we are with Jesus he might get sick of me and zap me out, forgive Jesus for my dissecting thoughts😇♥️♥️♥️🙌🙌💪🙏🙏🏼🙏🏻🙏🏿🙏🏽I do my head in

[@alittletexasingeorgia]

I have always broken it down to God's most basic characteristic towards us, Love. For without love, He wouldn't have given us free will to choose to love Him.

[@ubergenie6041]

Good question. Molina gives us an answer in that God creates a world that, due to his knowledge of future, accomplishes all his purposes without trampling on free will. He surveys what a particular world would look like given freewill agents choices. Then determines the best of these possible worlds. This explanation doesn’t destroy man’s freedom or his responsibility the way Calvinistic determinism does. God could create a world without evil but not with free will. So it may be the case that God cannot create a world without this much evil and get as much good as we have currently. Secondly fatalism is false. God’s knowledge is logically posterior to our actions but temporally prior. Our actions cause God to know we will choice a and not b. The only way we are predestined on the molinism view is that God created a world. Once created, everything will happen as God foreknew but not because God is making it happen, because he knew we would make it happen this way.

[@thebadagnostic]

we dont have consciousness when u say God is all mighty and omniscience .

[@grindelo5868]

What is energy?

[@oneth789]

If an omniscient and omnipotent God exist, He cannot have an imperfect plan. There is no amount of influence from the devil, human free will, or from whatsoever can mess-up His plan. Therefore, whatever happens yesterday, today, and tomorrow is in accordance to his will. Q: Do humans have free will? A: It doesn't matter. Everything still happens according to his plan. Q: If humans have free will, how can we not influence his plan? A: Because our humble capability cannot mess-up the plan of an omniscient and omnipotent God. Q: But how can it be possible that we have free will yet everything happens according to His will? A: I don't know. Who am I to understand His nature? He works in mysterious ways, right? Just accept it that way. Have faith. Q: You mean all the sufferings and confusions we have are part of His plan? A: What do you think?

[@BoylenInk]

You are assuming God created humanity as an architect creates a building rather than an artist creating life. The Bible does not support the idea that everything happens as God planned it. It repeatedly depicts God responding to people’s words and actions, including occasionally altering his stated plans. He expresses pleasure with people who trust him and frustration with those who don’t. He explicitly tells the ancient Jews that he never intended for them to adopt the pagan practice of child sacrifice. It is not an honest reading of the Bible to say God is just playing his part. Your version of what God must be like is more a criticism of Plato than the Bible.

[@Texas75023]

Never confuse *CAN* with *MUST.* That is the first erroneous assumption. The concept *NEARLY ALL* people have is what "God's PLAN" means. Does God plan for you to eat *GREEN BEANS* nstead of *CORN* for dinner? If you can make that choice, you have free will. But, one might propose an infinite number of hypotheticals which *CHANGE* a sequence of events to come. You choose the *CORN* which had botulism, and you *DIE.* That would seem to change plans going forward, right? Our perception and imagination of *GOD* is that he *EXISTS IN TIME* with us, and is *TRAVELLING THROGH TIME* with us. As such, we imagine *HIS PLAN* is as much in the *FUTURE* to him as it is to us, and therefore *SUBJECT TO CHANGE.* But God is not like us, because God *EXISTS* at all times. He does this because God exists *OUTSIDE SPACE-TIME* and its 4 dimensions. Where? Maybe the other 6 Dimensions Science now hypothesizes from the math. God knows the Future because *HE IS IN* the future already. To him the FUTURE is a book of the *PAST* we have not yet written. God no more controls you, than you control Columbus. You KNOW what Columbus would do in 1492, because it is the *PAST* for you.

[@dtscurvy7601]

God is not Megatron.

[@robertoesquivel4447]

@@BoylenInk The Bible heavily supports the idea that everything happens according to God's plan, whatchu talkin' bout?

[@BoylenInk]

Roberto Esquivel There are two places in the Bible that state certain events happened according to God’s plan: the exodus from Egypt and the crucifixion of Christ. If everything happens precisely according to plan, why bother saying anything at those times? Or why not simply remind the reader that ALL things happen as God plans them. 2 Kings 20:1-7 relates how King Hezekiah received word from God that he would die of his illness, he would not recover. He prayed and pleaded with God and God sent him a revised message that gave him an additional fifteen years to live, and he did recover from his illness. Did God change his plans for Hezekiah or did he only seem to? IS God dealing with us honestly or are these interactions a facade.

[@bungeebones]

Either everyone in heaven will have given up their "free will" (i.e. their ability to sin) or there will be a steady stream of individuals kicked out for sinning.

[@BoylenInk]

Free will isn’t necessarily the ability to sin. Your argument starts with your conclusion.

[@genova4578]

Sin comes from the desires of the flesh. I feel like if we aren't bound to our flesh anymore then it won't be as hard to stop sinning

[@sunshinegirl1967]

@@genova4578 What about Satan? Or 1/3 of the angels who sinned? They weren't bound by the flesh.

[@genova4578]

@@sunshinegirl1967 That's a good question lol. Satan wasn't necessarily human (was an angel) so I feel like I can't really speak on why exactly he decided to do what he did but considering that was the single sinful act that happened and assuming that our new bodies in heaven will be similar I think it still stands that it's a lot easier to not sin outside of our bodies we have on earth. But this is a really deep topic that we could talk about for ages haha. I just believe every sinful action we take is because "it feels good" and so if we didn't get that feeling from sin then I don't think we would have a reason to sin outside of just blatantly going against God.

[@natew.942]

This is GODS WILL WE ARE LIVING IN AND WE ARE MERELY MAKING CHOICES WITHIN HIS WILL BUTVIT IS IN FACT GODS WILL, HIS PERFECT WILL, AND WHAT GOD WILLS, WILL BE DONE AND AND HE WORKS THROUGH US ALL FOR US ALL ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, IN GODS PERFECT TIMING! We do not have free will at all, God like Lennox explains is inexplicaple but he is also not! There is a perfect order of things in his Will from the planets to a seed that grows into trees to us as human beings. His Will is for a grand purpose you see. We must know evil in order to even comprehend love. GOD IS LOVE! UNDERSTAND THAT LITERALLY AND YOU KNOW GOD. John 1:1 "Before anything was the Word and the Word was with God, and God is the Word." Dont believe the lie, Hell is not the truth, we have choices, we get to choose but ultimately God can and will correct us according to HIS WILL

[@naturalisted1714]

Summary: I don't know. Non-answer. Avoiding the fact that it's a contradiction.

[@AtamMardes]

Unfortunately, John Lennox is unable to discern religious fairy tales, fiction, & myths from facts.

[@humbleevidenceaccepter7712]

"Free Will" is just a myth invented by theists to cover up the inherent immorality of your religion. People cannot choose what they _believe._ Why would an allegedly omnipotent God create me as an atheist? Just so he can torture me in Hell? I do not choose to be an atheist, I am _incapable_ of believing anything I am unconvinced of. Disagree? Then answer these two simple questions: 1) What evidence, if any, do you personally require to believe my _CLAIM_ 'I wear glasses?' 2) What evidence, if any, do you personally require to believe my _CLAIM_ 'Bigfoot lives in my backyard?' Are you honest enough to answer, or will you run away out of fear of exposure?

[@WilliamTyndale1]

1) Probably just a photo or meeting you with glasses on your face. 2) Sight, experience, audio/visual images... Now, suppose you supply me with just those sort of things. Could I still choose *not* to accept their validity and remain unconvinced of your claims? If so, what accounts for this? What is the "magic" process (since you don't attribute it to free will) that causes you or I to accept the evidence provided and form our beliefs accordingly? Have you not _chosen_ to believe that "People cannot choose what they believe." I am not saying you are choosing to believe sans conviction. I am saying that there is still a choice to accepting this or that evidence in order to form a conviction (i.e. be convinced of a thing). Further more, I can believe something while still not following it. I can believe there is a God without choosing to worship Him, for example. There's always a choice. The choice ultimately is to choose life or choose death. Now, I follow your inferred argument that just as I would only accept evidence gleaned through my physical senses to believe your claims, so you would only accept the existence of God were you able to see, touch, taste, smell or physically feel Him. You demand a "slice of God" to put under the telescope or photograph and hang upon the wall as your "proof" and then you will "humbly" believe. No you won't. I've talked to many people who don't believe no matter how many seemingly supernatural experiences they've had. They simply rationalize it as the unexplained, some momentary aberration that defied what they knew of reality, yet, if they only had more information, they would surely find it to all be easily explainable. And maybe, in the cases they detail, it _would_ be. But that's the point: How can we trust our senses enough to know they are giving it to us straight were something supernatural to actually happen to us such as a physical encounter with God, if we preclude that we will only trust our senses if they code for what is explainable via what is understood of the physical (i.e. _natural_) world? You see, you are making a grave category error. You are demanding the One who is Spirit and exists beyond the dimensions of time and space He created for us to inhabit to reveal Himself to you in the _physical_ dimensions. You know what He is liable to tell you were you to be able to stand before Him and demand such absurdity? "Was not the miraculous breath of life within you enough to reveal to you in a real and utterly tangible way what and whom I _must_ be? Is not the fact there is something rather than nothing, life rather than non life, time rather than non time, love, intelligence, information, laws of physics, logic, mathematics, morality, etc., etc., all things that cannot be explained apart from Me and My Divine Attributes, not far more sufficient than mere imagery you would have to filter through your fickle and faltering senses and then second guess, doubt and finally dismiss in the end? Because you see, the problem is not that I have not revealed Myself to you, My creation--- I have revealed Myself, that which is unseen by that which is seen, to every person who has ever lived under the sun--- the problem is the sin in your heart and your relentless drive to be your own god and rob me of the glory due my name and rob yourself of the love and the joy I created you to share with Me." Read Romans 1:16-32 & 1Corinthians 1:18-2:16. You will see we are _all_ without excuse. Then, perhaps, if you are really trying to find Him, you will read what He said in John chapter 3. Peace to you, I hope you find what you are (or aren't) looking for.

[@humbleevidenceaccepter7712]

+William Tyndale. Thanks for the the two honest answers. Indeed, most people would only need a little evidence to believe my little CLAIM 'I wear glasses.' Presumably you've seen glasses, met an Optometrist or maybe even wear a pair. Your excellent personal examples of "a photo or meeting" are quite sufficient for you to personally believe my 'glasses' claim. Also rational are your examples _you would personally need_ to believe my huge CLAIM that 'Bigfoot lives in my backyard.' For this quite large claim, you personally need a larger body of evidence. Presumably, you've never seen a Bigfoot in person or maybe you've read about some of the hoaxes. Most people would also not personally believe my large 'Bigfoot' claim without the same excellent examples you honestly provided, like "sight, experience, audio/visual images" etc. So on question #1, you believe (or easily could believe) my 'glasses' CLAIM. Not so fast on #2 though. I have provided _NONE_ of the evidence that _you personally,_ or ANY reasonable person, requires to believe that CLAIM. *You **_DO NOT BELIEVE_** my claim that 'Bigfoot lives in my BACKYARD* How could you answer if I used the theist response "you don't personally need evidence, you just CHOOSE not to believe."

[@WilliamTyndale1]

You are trying to equate having no knowledge of something and no rational means to believe in the same (e.g. the Big Foot claim) to supposedly having no logical reason for believing God exists. As I went on to detail point by point in the rest of my message, this is not at all rational to me. The Source of all that _is_ is verified by the nature of what *is* . This is in no way analogous to hunting for a mythical (or at least un-evidenced) creature. It is inherently the direct opposite of such a quest, in fact, in that it is dealing directly with that which _is_ seen and experienced by each and every one of us; to wit, our very lives and the nature of the realm we inhabit. It is crushingly obvious to me but I respect your right to not accept such seemingly obvious evidence and _choose_ not to believe in God to the point you _choose_ to believe you have no choice to believe in Him. It's really quite tremendous, perhaps the ultimate Catch-22.

[@humbleevidenceaccepter7712]

+William Tyndale. (Edit: Thanks for the continued civil discourse; this is rare between theists and atheists) *"You are trying to equate knowledge..."* No sir, I am specifically talking about _beliefs_ only, not "knowledge" nor "logical reasons" of "what *is* ." Please don't conflate them. My argument here is not about the validity nor existence of any evidence. It is about whether we are capable of personally choosing what claims _we believe;_ what we can or cannot believe if personally unconvinced. I contend you are _incapable_ of *believing* my claim 'Bigfoot lives in my backyard' because you are _unconvinced._ I further contend in your current unconvinced state you couldn't believe in my 'Bigfoot' claim even if you _wanted to._ Even if I said "you'll go to Bigfoot Hell for not believing." Notice any parallels?

[@humbleevidenceaccepter7712]

+William Tyndale. Still there? Am I blocked?

[@GeoCoppens]

What the hell are e talking about here? All needless nonsense. Consciousness is a faculty of the barin when it is stimulated!!! If not, you are asleep!

[@GODHATESADOPTION]

You are still conscious when asleep otherwise the alarm clock is pointless.