The Specific Charges Against the Telegram CEO

[@frankbauerful]

The French police says that if you offer an encrypted communication platform and criminals use it, you are complicit in ALL crimes committed by these people. And the only way you can escape this liability is by offering the government an eavesdropping mechanism.

[@muhdiversity7409]

How very French

[@Topher_Knows]

All the crime committed with Euros.... I mean, they gotta shut that down. All the people that have backroom conversations, they gotta shut that down too.

[@marcink5800]

Telegram is not encrypted by default. Apps that offer E2EE do not need to provide eavesdropping but they can provide metadata like who is part of specific chat.

[@justanothercomment416]

free speech is a human rie ght. Pay attention to all who oppose huh man rie ghts.

[@_PatrickO]

@@muhdiversity7409 All sites in the United States offer a way for authorities to access data. The good ones require a warrant, but they all do not. (a private business can do anything it wants with data you voluntarily give them). In fact, they have all turned this into a business. They all charge money so its a profit center to answer warrants and provide access. The only real difference with france is that their law allows them to hold CEOs criminally liable, instead of just civil suits against the business. We would benefit a lot with laws that hold people running companies criminally liable. The last 3 boeing CEOs would all be in jail, where they belong.

[@Balance275]

Wrong analogy with the newspaper. A better analogy is the government requiring a landlord to conduct regular searches on their tenants’ homes to see if they’re doing anything illegal, and giving them a copy of the keys in case they want to check themselves.

[@_PatrickO]

Tenants rights are laws to protect tenants from private landlords. But even police can enter a property with a warrant looking for illegal stuff. Telegram groups are public and stored on telegram servers. The authorities likely collected proof of illegal content being stored on telegram servers and sent notices asking for removal and moderation. Telegram ignored them, that was their choice. They could not get access to the servers and moderation was not happening, so the warrant went out for the CEO instead. Arresting the CEO that is the sole man who refused to comply with the law is refreshing. France has a nice law where execs have the liability, not low level employees. If the US had a law like this, the last 3 boeing CEOs would be in prison where they belong. But do consider he purposely traveled to france knowing he would be arrested. That french warrant required being on french soil, it was not an international warrant. This was a voluntary surrender right after meeting with putin in azerbaijan. Something in that meeting convinced him to surrender to french authorities. Speculate on that if you want to speculate. What did putin say or do to him that scared him into surrendering to french authorites?

[@masterkraft4746]

that's what the CCP does

[@yumri4]

@@masterkraft4746 The USA charges the land lord if the tenet does that so it is a thing here too. It isn't required by law but it is a "best practice" to do.

[@futu1983]

@@masterkraft4746 How do you know this?

[@longkesh1971]

@@yumri4 The USA has 50 states, all with their own laws. Everything you said about USA is false.

[@Notsram77]

Oh yeah? They going to start arresting Toyota executives for all those old pickups that the Taliban use?

[@googIesux]

More consistently, arrest all gov in the chain of public roads, because they're commonly used to commit crimes. Don't even get me started on God letting criminals breathe air, or hide their exact location behind various physical objects like bushes, etc. God is really screwing up the whole omniscient utopian government thing. Our lives could be perfect, but nooooo...

[@SenileOtaku]

That could work in a different way. Arrest Joe Biden for giving the Taliban all those tanks and equipment.

[@tgheretford]

At this point only Government approved communication apps, heavily restricted and under surveillance will be allowed. "For your own safety and to uphold the law".

[@pluto8404]

its the classic Epstein Scheme. Allow the degenerates to be degenerates, but gather the info and use it as leverage later. Thats why they hate encryption, its not to save the children, we already know they are the ones being degenerates, but they need to know you are one too.

[@AClockworkHellcat]

This is why not a single government has tried to shut down Tor. It was compromised from day 1.

[@androth1502]

basically, he was charged with not giving the government information they demanded about users of telegram.

[@turtlefrog369]

and not providing them with a backdoor.

[@JPs-q1o]

What about abusers of the government? Should the French bureaurats all be arrested unless telegram gets that information?

[@WraithOfMan]

False equivalency: Telegram is very specifically not like a newspaper - it is a *platform*, not a publisher, which means the correct equivalent is to compare it to a telephone network provider. Now ask yourself this; should the CEO of AT&T or Verizon be arrested because criminals have used his company's network to commit their illegal activities?....

[@WildVoltorb]

Good point, but the govt does have access to these lines you mentioned. It's not encrypted

[@thadtheman3751]

@@WildVoltorb They can be some businesses do or at least did that.

[@Animal_lives_matter]

@@WildVoltorb People can congregate and have private conversations in rooms without the government hearing them. Next you will say we are only allowed to do this because the government can park a van outside and listen in with a powerful microphone. That's not the world I want to live in, sorry.

[@lindseylinck]

It's easy to see how "crime is happening in [some] platform, so it has to be held responsible" is often just an excuse for censorship when there's more pressure to give governments back-doors, control and more regulations instead of concrete actions from the platforms themselves. That muddies the whole discussion a lot, thanks for bringing a more nuanced and cautious point of view.

[@JPs-q1o]

Replace "platform" with "government". Now we can have a discussion at a mentally mature adult level.

[@lindseylinck]

@@JPs-q1o "t's easy to see how "crime is happening in [some] government, so it has to be held responsible" is often just an excuse for censorship when there's more pressure to give governments back-doors, control and more regulations instead of concrete actions from the governments themselves." Just kidding. :v

[@JPs-q1o]

@@lindseylinck Clever 😄

[@PyVerse-47]

also Rumble got blocked in france by the government because they supported Telegram

[@atticusherodes6648]

Now we know why aol, compuserves and others wanted to have separate programs for each company

[@Phredreeke]

Rumble got blocked because they refused to remove RT I think

[@MnemonicCarrier]

@@Phredreeke This convinces me that this kind of censorship is just wrong. RT isn't "child pr0n" or "organized crime", and the decision to ban it is purely political. It's all about controlling the information space, and has very little to do with preventing/tackling crime.

[@PvtAnonymous]

"say my name" "you're Heisenbe..." *BANNED*

[@mortykun]

I'd rather deal with scams than deal with big brother.

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@Artekus Their problem is criminals in the government, not criminals on the streets. Besides, their job is to go after the criminals, not force a citizen to do it.

[@addajjalsonofallah6217]

​@@Artekus the government is thre criminal

[@kras_mazov]

I think EFF is against any kind of censorship, and the stuff you are saying about is a subject of censorship, that's all. Edit: actually it's a bit more complicated. Usually, under the veil of passing laws that protect children, governments (they don't really care about that stuff) pass something that eventually allows political censorship.

[@Phredreeke]

it's not that EFF is for children having access to pornography, it's that any law intending to prevent their access would also violate the privacy of adults.

[@FarmingWithYahweh]

This is a debate of free speech and liability is part of that. Why would the Telegram CEO be responsible for the behavior of the people on his platform? Do you know how ridiculous that is?

[@herbicidal1]

We need a decentralized, permission-less, encrypted, messaging protocol that is 100% open source. That way everyone can build on top of it, something like Nostr but with encryption. I'm so sick of messengers eventually being subverted or bought-out for billions. This should be a viable objective in this era.

[@herbicidal1]

Any solution should also require proof-of-work to create a cost to send a message to reduce the likelihood of spam.

[@JodyBruchon]

I have spent the past 13 years thinking about how to make such a system. IPFS is close but not good enough. I know why all existing systems fail and the truth is that it all comes down to being complex and purposeless. Sure, they have a purpose, but what do they do for a normie?

[@therecentlyundeceased]

Freenet has existed for 20 years. It suffers from the fake problem this idiot accuses federated feed developers of though

[@osmano807]

We need to develop the Internet on those secure platforms, the users will have their functionality on this secure base only if they value the functionality first, they don't care what's underneath.

[@ImperiumLibertas]

@@JodyBruchon matrix is close. Their decentralized messaging bus is pretty great. It doesn't integrate great with anonymization tools like tor though. From what I understand is it is being worked on. But the idea of decentralized home servers that manage identity independently that sync between each other is the future for all decentralized messaging bus system.

[@siwiecministro1994]

Lunduke's stance on those kind of authoritarianism is a reminder that one cannot really rely on right-wingers to defend freedom and freedom of speech in particular.

[@VirideSoryuLangley]

Let's not pretend that leftists are any better.

[@siwiecministro1994]

@@VirideSoryuLangley There are no leftists anymore, only Soros-bribed zombies. I mean people like Noam Chomsky. He never (AFAIK) disgraced himself supporting ANY curtailment of freedom of speech - "hate speech" or otherwise.

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@VirideSoryuLangley Leftists are the worst. I would even argue that if you're even a little bit for censorship that you're at least partly on the left as I don't agree that censorship is ever a right leaning thing.

[@Houshalter]

In the future landlords will be required to install secret microphones in their tenants rooms by this logic. Not only for police to use with a warrant, but the landlord himself must listen to make sure nothing bad is going on. Also keep the recordings indefinitely because they might be needed in the future. The whole concept of a private conversation is obsolete. This is the most boring way for civilization to end, but here we are. It was obvious and easily preventable, and we warned everyone, oh well.

[@anarchymatt]

If you make concessions for privacy because you think that these encrypted communication providers should cooperate with government to stop crime, then there is no privacy. You may as well not even bother encrypting anything because once the govt has these people know that they can be clintoned at anytime, they'll put in a back door to not be killed. The only way is to have completely unrestricted encryption. The services shouldn't even be able to know what their customers are talking about. How is there liability if you don't even know the contents of the messages.

[@compwiz00]

Those bills do not stop kids from seeing porn. They put central control on publishing and fail to stop porn. If that's all they did , no one would ever have a problem. In fact, so few people have a problem that it was already illegal to show kids porn.

[@_PatrickO]

It establishes a duty of care and any case the government wants to bring must prove the website isn't doing what they reasonably could. It isn't really about porn(states that want to block porn are already doing it like indiana), but about all the other bad stuff that hurts kids or exploits them for profit. Republicans and liberals both support it because you cannot control your kid outside your view nor control the lack of parenting by other parents. We need a way to regulate the sites themselves because it is impossible to force a parent to be any good. Good parents deserve some ability to protect their kids against ones raised by shitty people. Here is the beauty of it, if the bill doesn't work, change it or repeal it. The idea that we can't try new laws to address new problems is as unamerican as it gets. This is our entire system created by our constitution. Believe it or not, laws are created to deal with actual problems that exist. Laws don't get created for no reason. You can repeal laws that do not work. Vote for responsible adults willing to work on bills to get them right, rather than oppose everything like a clown. Even bernie sanders voted for things that he didn't like because compromise is how government works. Without compromise, government cannot function.

[@googIesux]

But people still do it so we have to make it more illegal, with more laws. That'll do it. Its funny how no matter how illegal something already is, there's always a reason to grab power to make it moreso

[@samuellourenco1050]

And that is the objective. Centralize control. If any content is legal or not, they don't care, as long as it is not against THE MESSAGE.

[@VirideSoryuLangley]

With the way females dress these days, porn is everywhere and can't be avoided. So those laws are stupid and hypocritical.

[@theloststarbounder]

It's not about stopping porn, it's about only MESSAGE spreaders to post and consume porn that has the MESSAGE. This is why there were several purges on major sites, government said it's not ok to profit from it unless it follows an agenda, and that's why it's so weird now.

[@megatronskneecap]

We live in a world where even creating an app to allow people to speak freely is becoming a crime. Someone help us all. I'm waiting for an astroid at this point 😂

[@PRIMARYATIAS]

Earth is FLAT, So no CGI Astroids at all. About time you all wake up

[@megatronskneecap]

@@PRIMARYATIAS This is too far the other way 😂

[@muhdiversity7409]

@@megatronskneecap I wish I could see the comment you responded to.

[@megatronskneecap]

@@muhdiversity7409 Some powder sniffer conspiracy theorist talking about flat earth

[@justanothercomment416]

kommie reach is far.

[@johnrickard8512]

It should be unconstitutional for the government to require entities to cooperate with their investigations.

[@zwerko]

You're letting your political bias paint your stance on what EFF would think of the case up to a point of almost covertly accusing them of being children lovers themselves. EFF has always been against restricting access to information regardless of the reason and they've been surprisingly consistent at that stance despite their heavy political bias. Not restricting access to information, unfortunately, also includes not restricting minors from getting to it, regardless of the type. However, nobody is against parents setting certain restrictions for their minors. You, as a right-leaning person, should actually appreciate such stance-it's not the government's job to raise your kids.

[@adamadamnrhi]

I like Bryan's take on a lot of things, but this is where I felt it stopped being informative and I just turned it off.

[@bennyboy776]

Every time Bryan opens his mouth about politics it's pure brain rot.

[@BrianCroweAcolyte]

Yeah, it's really a brain dead take to think any Government or private company has any obligation to keep YOUR kid off adult websites. And unless we completely segregated the internet, anyone can easily just go to some site hosted in a different country.

[@anon_y_mousse]

Yeah, he keeps saying this and I totally disagree with his stance here. More importantly, in this particular case of Telegram, the government is attempting to force a citizen to do their job. If someone is distributing illegal content, and I still say only actions should be illegal, not content, then it should be up to the government to go after that person. Of course, while I think no content should be illegal, I'd probably still dispatch a person to the afterlife if they distributed CP of any of my children. But adult P should not be illegal or blocked because it's up to the parents to prevent their kids from seeing it. This is why I think a parent should be wise and only allow their children a JitterBug flip phone until they're 18.

[@JPs-q1o]

Excellent monologue, @BryanLunduke Now swap the words "government" and "publisher"/"platform"/"newspaper" and do it again.

[@kras_mazov]

Isn't Mastodon distributed? Are you saying the entire protocol should be blocked?

[@reecesx]

Yes, oi vei shut it down, says the special hat. That article he was referring to was written by a fed coping and seething over anime, btw. His (Guise Bule, NNSA GOV dev) first paragraph was nothing more than "see: here's a tweet of somebody saying 'mastodon is probably full of XYZ'"

[@barnabwhy]

The real reason Telegram is considered complicit in these crimes is actually mentioned in the press release. It specifically mentions organised groups. The reason is that Telegram groups are not end-to-end encrypted and therefore they are capable of observing the contents of group chats, as such they are complicit. Were Telegram groups encrypted E2E like private chats they would not be able to be held liable.

[@AlucardNoir]

Most countries do not have a freedom of speech right enshrined in their constitution. Also, I'd like to point out that even 33 years ago, it was almost impossible to buy american made software that had any form of encryption if you didn't live in the US since it was illegal. So let's not pretend like the "provided encryption services to so and so" charge is all that impossible to imagine happening in other countries.

[@anon_y_mousse]

True, but such laws should never have been allowed. It was a blatant violation of our right to free speech. I would suggest that the US has been turning left for a little over a century now and if we don't recognize that and turn back before it's too late, we just may find ourselves ceasing to exist in the near future.

[@AlucardNoir]

@@anon_y_mousse most countries have no such right enshrined in their respective constitutions.

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@AlucardNoir Yeah, but they should. It's a basic right of all sentient beings, and failure to recognize it is a huge part of the problem in other nations and why things are getting worse. Even in the US it's not fully recognized, and we can see what effect that's having.

[@AlucardNoir]

@@anon_y_mousse There is no such thing as a basic right, nor a natural one. Every right you have has an obligation attached to it. You have the right and everybody else has the obligation to not kill you. And you in turn take on yourself that same obligation, in other words the social contract. There's a reason it's not fully recognized even in the US, and that's because it can have negative consequences. You tell fire in a crowded place and people get trampled, hurt or even killed. Or, if you incite people to violence, you don't get to hide behind: "but I didn't do nothing". Thus your right to free speech is limited. As an old law professor of mine once said: your rights end where mine begin. Most places are more concerned with the material results of words than with anyone's rights to utter them in the first place.

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@AlucardNoir You're wrong about there being no natural rights. They do exist, it's just a matter of whether our civilization recognizes and respects them is all. Of course, you're right about our rights ending where others' begin. I and everyone else has a right to do whatever we please as long as it doesn't hurt others. That naturally means that yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire is not something you have a right to do as it would hurt others. This is basic logic that anyone should be able to understand, but the left wants to control everyone and everything so they tamp these rights down as much as they can. I'll say it yet again, the fact that we haven't fought back is a huge part of what's wrong with this world and why it is corrupt. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

[@tafferinthedark]

I am very surprised at your take on the EFF and the bills that "prevent kids from reaching adult material". I think you are really glossing over and misrepresenting those bills. Saying that they "want kids to access such material" because the bills are being opposed for how they intend to go about it, is disingenuous at best.

[@JPs-q1o]

Its time to arrest France!

[@silvermushroom-gamifyevery6430]

Swap the kiddie stuff and scams for Winnie the Pooh memes, and this become a glowing advertisement for web3 and the fediverse

[@terrydaktyllus1320]

Memes are for members of the Millennial Hive Mind who cannot think for themselves but can only parrot something "amusing" once said by someone else. Use of memes is a demonstration of lack of creativity and individuality.

[@Smithor]

​@@terrydaktyllus1320My man, this is like walking into a business meeting with a sundial on your wrist, so out of touch. I really encourage you to learn more about your fellow man from a position of fellowship. Such closed thinking does no good to anyone.

[@terrydaktyllus1320]

@@Smithor "My man, this is like walking into a business meeting with a sundial on your wrist, so out of touch." Then that suggests you're probably not a good business person. My advice is spend a little money on a better timepiece, though I personally do not take advice from strangers on the Internet anyway, So do as you please. "I really encourage you to learn more about your fellow man from a position of fellowship." I really encourage you to put your "amateur Internet psychologist" books away and stop believing you know someone's entire character and philosophy just because you've seen them type a few words here. They haven't invented "Telepathy over TCP/IP" yet anyway. " Such closed thinking does no good to anyone." I'm sure it doesn't, but I refer you again to the paragraph above. Good, I think we're done her and "amateur Sigmund Freud" has been put in its place. Run along then, I'm sure you've better things to be doing with your time. Discussion closed. Dismissed.

[@Smithor]

@@terrydaktyllus1320 Womp womp

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@terrydaktyllus1320 Memes aside, I personally detest censorship. I would like to see the populace become more intelligent and be able to suss out scams on their own rather than have the government essentially deputize website operators. How about you?

[@muhdiversity7409]

France on the way to being full UK.

[@megatronskneecap]

And the UK is on it's way to becoming China

[@PRIMARYATIAS]

All of Europe is controlled by the KM (I cannot write the acronym in exapnded form, otherwise they will delete the comment)

[@_PatrickO]

You realize this man purposely traveled back to france knowing he would be arrested, right? It was right after meeting Putin in Azerbaijan. It is far more likely, he became in fear of his life and wants protection. France has really good laws that allows them to arrest CEOs instead of low level employees when a business commits crimes. But it was a domestic warrant in france, it meant nothing unless he returned to french soil. He flew into france and surrendered deliberately. He did not accidentally land in france due to a plane malfunction or weather or anything else. This also has nothing to do with encrypted chats. On telegram, only DMs are privately encrypted. Groups are effectively public with no privacy. Any encryption is handled by telegram, so all group content is public to telegram employees and thousands or hundreds of thousands of group members. I also laugh about free speech claims, this is france not the united states. Do you even know the speech laws in france? BTW, people like Musk are true globalists that think money equals rights and countries don't matter. He doesn't care about free speech, he cares about rich people doing anything they want.

[@dranon0o]

> on the way was that way for a long time under Mitterrand lot of people died mysteriously

[@atticusherodes6648]

Can we consider the eu an enemy at this stage? That's why they gave us the statue of liberty they gave up liberty.

[@maximkryzhny]

B Lunduk is right - in the 60's you couldn't sell drugs through a newspaper. Because even then there were police officers for that.

[@thadtheman3751]

Actually you could but you would have to be careful.

[@voxceleste8426]

Bryan, I don't know how that report about Mastodon got their data, but I suspect that this is a cheap shot and a disinformation at the very least. I am not using Mastodon, but I had read a lot about federated networks a while ago. So there was a controversy couple of years ago about some cultural differences on this topic between people who like some graphic product of japanese culture and the rest of the world. And basically there was a rift and bunch of servers denied federating with them. Also we should remember, that there can be an infinite number of federations (collections of connected servers, not only Mastodon-based), that are not linked. So there may as well be some federation with only bad and illegal things in it and it can be comprised mostly of Mastodon nodes, but it's a disservice and a plainly stupid, ignorant argument to say that the majority of content is illegal on Mastodon. It's almost like saying that E-Mail is comprised of illegal things, unlike GMail! It's ridiculous.

[@20NewJourney23]

I tried Mastadon ever so briefly (like 30 minutes or less). The people I saw on there were so vile, it was similar to what is commonly seen in the comments section of many Bitchute videos. I tried several supposedly central or right-wing groups and it was all sickening. I deleted my account and haven't looked back.

[@JamesJones-zt2yx]

I can say that for some time, whenever I''d post a comment on some KZbinrs' videos, there would inevitably be a bogus reply claiming to be from the KZbinr asking me to go to Telegram.

[@20NewJourney23]

I have seen many more WhatsApp users trying to scam people online (not necessarily KZbin) than I have seen the same with Telegram links.

[@act.13.41]

Thanks Bryan.

[@Saphyel]

I fully disagree on your opinion about the EFF. If I tell you give me all your money just in case you use for illegal activities, if you oppose that means you use your money for illegal activities ? EFF supports freedom and those bills aims to restrict the liberty of everyone. They are not promoting illegal activities.

[@matheusjacques-bk3gz]

Thanks for commenting about Brazil situation, i was about to comment how the only way to view your content is through KZbin or with VPN

[@mikemaldanado6015]

The reason why mastodon is left alone is because the majority of the users on the platform are govt workers,, including police officers, judges, etc. They are mastodons main source of revenue. Need i say more.

[@ScubaDude1960]

They're going to have to arrest the head of the French phone company on the same charges.

[@_PatrickO]

Phone companies assist law enforcement.

[@rusi6219]

​@@_PatrickOphone companies are an extension of LE.

[@alexpyattaev]

The main issue is that they arrest Durov instead of quietly talking to him over lunch. The lack of visible respect is counterproductive here. Feels like the whole thing is a fabricated scandal rather than a legit operation to tone down the crime in telegram.

[@kojitakamura2522]

18:00 that's why Baraag and JP instances are almost the first ones to be given domain-level blocks on most instances.

[@derekreed6798]

Aren't the governments who are prosecuting him also guilty of those same charges?

[@stonedoubt]

Every social media ceo could be charged with these.

[@etziowingeler3173]

if you provide such a general-use tool, like a messenger platform or a family car, you are not responsible for every single illicit activity. You can use a car for horrendous crimes, but also for driving your kids to soccer training or whatnot. The charges are bogus and serve the only purpose of making an example of him to push compliance with governmental policies - some might be justified, some not, but in general, surveillance laws are passed quickly, and seldomly withdrawn -in terms of digital civil right. People have put on hard fights for "the people" to have those rights, but they can be stripped away in the blink of an eye. For the record - TG has been coorporating with serious crime (cp, terrorism, etc)

[@lian_drake]

My question is: Should a kitchen knife company be held accountable for the murders that have been made with their products?

[@JamesMorris-rr4pl]

You can't hold the CEO responsible for the actions of a large company. You can fine the company, but that's it. These charges will only stick if Durov did the dirty deeds himself on his phones.

[@felipemalmeida]

Thanks for mentioning the problems we at Brazil are facing with censorship and election fraud.

[@turtlefrog369]

what if i told you all countries face election fraud in some capacity?

[@cesars4234]

“censorship” to fake news spreading. and how can you doubt our linux ballot box? all of this came from fake news…

[@crabsoft]

No, bro, you're not understanding. Telegram is a publisher. To be the public square, a platform, you have to choose what to publish and comply.

[@Drazil100]

Honestly the REAL solution to this is to not use centralized platforms. It makes perfect sense that governments around the world would hold communication platforms responsible for the actions of their users unless they cooperate with trying to stop illegal activities on the government's terms. If you aren't stopping someone and you are providing them a platform then you are enabling them. I often see people complaining about free speech when platforms ban people for political positions and nothing actually illegal. They say they have a 1st amendment right to say whatever they want and ignore the platform's 1st amendment right to choose what messages get distributed on their privately owned platform. The solution to both of these is self hosting. If you don't like the speech of a platform or do not trust what they do with your data, then you should host your own solution that runs on your own hardware and doesn't touch these services. Likewise, if you wish to actually enable free speech and protect user privacy, don't host servers to route their data. Give the people the tools to run their own communication platform and let them decide how willing they are to cooperate when the government comes knocking. If you do decide to host a centralized service then make it clear you are subject to the demands of government and that it is not a secure method of communication. None of this would be an issue if people weren't so willing to trade security for the convenience of not having to run their own servers.

[@siwiecministro1994]

"Honestly the REAL solution to this is to not use centralized platforms." Ridiculous. If the Internet of the old days were to succeed, it would have already done so. Unfortunately "platforms" are our reality now. Yes - we would be much better of if people communicated on platforms like Freenet, Tor, perhaps Usenet. But they aren't and there is no reason to expect they will be. "It makes perfect sense that governments around the world would hold communication platforms responsible for the actions of their users unless they cooperate with trying to stop illegal activities on the government's terms." I don't agree. Governments control banking systems, so it shouldn't be difficult to prevent paying for this illegal content. But if something is legal somewhere else, we should opt for most freedom for the people: if calling war in UA a war is illegal in RU, we should help people in RU to use circumvention tools; if denying holocaust is illegal somewhere, we should help people share their ideas in the US, if opposing trans-agenda becomes illegal in the US, we should encourage people to use Russian platforms to voice their views. Why don't we see this double standard - when some authoritarian country bans some speech, we praise dissidents of those countries for spreading it on freedom-enabling platforms. Why it is different when it comes to western countries? "If you aren't stopping someone and you are providing them a platform then you are enabling them." Like if a taxi driver does not ask a client, why he chose this dark corner of a city? ;> "I often see people complaining about free speech when platforms ban people for political positions and nothing actually illegal. They say they have a 1st amendment right to say whatever they want and ignore the platform's 1st amendment right to choose what messages get distributed on their privately owned platform." People like you are the problem - we need (and in some countries it starts being recognized) to extend free speech to new public square. There is no such right for corporations - it is just an usurpation, and we should treat it as such. It should go only one of two ways - either you are a publisher and you HAVE the first amendment rights on your publication or you are a platform and (like for example telephone companies) cannot regulate legal speech on nodes of your network (what is more, you shouldn't be looking at that speech unless ordered by proper legal document from the state; why is it obvious for everyone when it comes to telephone network, but on the Internet we are so easily convinced otherwise?).

[@torquemada2]

Would have been really fun you read the press release in French

[@halleknast]

Did he really just say that he expects the EFF to defend the platform for hosting child sexual abuse material?

[@user-el4su7tl6f]

Yes 😂

[@m.heyatzadeh]

The thing with Telegram is that as it got bigger, the executives didn't increase their resources and teams in order to fight against illegal activities.

[@rusi6219]

Why should they monitor people's private comms?

[@DamjanDimitrioski]

About William Shatner, facebook, twitter; got million William Shatner profiles for scams, but he hates Telegram only :D; we're not stupid, he is paid to say that.

[@robotron1236]

If they release Pavel, then that means he gave the US/NATO a back door.

[@HenryFordOfficial]

Mossad*

[@robotron1236]

@@HenryFordOfficial probably them too, but it’s not exclusive to Mossad by any means.

[@staryikhren]

Telegram is not rejecting official queries to ban/remove malicious channels, if their criminal activity is proven. Unless these official requests appear to be politically inclined ones. If one finds channel with criminal content - just have it reported, providing proof of its criminal activity.

[@ferdinandbardamu3945]

So the platform owner is now responsible for what the users are doing? This is a great precedent - what goes around comes around.

[@4eyesleo]

Don't know about Telegram's reputation, but there is the official channel of them with daily statistics of blocked T-st content on the platform. It is there for ages. Cannot put a link here, YT auto-deletes my comment in this case

[@MnemonicCarrier]

Yeah, can't have citizens having free and private conversations with each other!!!

[@tinkerwithstuff]

Saying someone allowing a means of communication between people was responsible for the behavior of people communicating there is like saying the provider of park benches need to be held responsible for the assault rappers doing it to someone there (you know the thing, thanks YT)

[@---bg9cx]

thanks ofor syuch a nuanced take

[@juderaymond2289]

1960s Newspaper analogy is flawed . Telegram is free. 1960s Newspapers are local not global. Countries can firewall any website.

[@rodh1404]

I often disagree with William Shatner, but this time I think he's right. If your platform is being used to do things that most people view as morally wrong, such as scams, drug deals and CP, then you NEED to take reasonable steps to moderate that. Even some political opinions should be moderated, if they're morally wrong to the significant majority of people. Such as if you wanted to re-introduce slavery, for example. I get it, some political leaders want to take this moderation too far and suppress ALL opposing views, along with anything that might embarrass them. That shouldn't be allowed either. All I'm saying is that the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and IMO if the overwhelming majority of people think something is morally wrong and harmful to society in general, then it probably is.

[@MyAmazingUsername]

The overlap between the Masterdong deviants and creeps is indeed a circle. Thanks for bringing awareness to that.

[@dnoordink]

They don't shut it down because they're all on there swimming in the cesspool.

[@kpcraftster6580]

Arrested immediately after being present at Heydar Aliyev International Airport at the same time as Putin (without meeting), for refusing to cooperate with illegitimate data requests and subpoenas and not building back doors into Telegram.

[@jonathont5570]

I went there once and it seemed to have no redeeming value. Reach.... just block them regionally.

[@fontenbleau]

Tribunal? Prosecutor of republic? Are french revolution still going there? Committee of public safety? Madamme Gilhoutinne?

[@kusucks991]

He should hire Denny Crane as his lawyer. Undefeated!

[@4eyesleo]

Lock and load! :)

[@rickardstrom9305]

Well, I suppose it all comes down to where Telegram's offices and servers are located. It is hard to claim jurisdiction overseas considering all countries involved and the difference in views. Australia and Brazil tried it with Twitter recently and were not so politely given the middle finger by Elon Musk. As for Mastodon I can't stop poking fun at all celebrities and journalists/activists who claimed they were skipping ship with Elon Musk at the helm. From Twitter with 'kiddy stuff' that Elon Musk swore he would clean up to Mastodon with even more 'kiddy stuff'. I suppose there are a lot of hard drives that needs to be investigated. 🤣

[@JodyBruchon]

Telegram headquarters I think is in Netherlands or Belgium but I could be incorrect.

[@d3stinYwOw]

For Telegram and taking bad guys out - they're doing it all the time. For me it's a matter of being understaffed for whatever telegram grown into. They're responding to gov requests, including German and Polish ones for certain things. They take down illicit stuff, they simply are being overworked. PS. KOSA in Polish slang is like 'knife' :)

[@AlainPaulikevitch]

Appalling loss of common sense. If a pedophile puts a kid in his car trunk, does it make sense to arrest the car manufacturer?

[@tiaanbasson9092]

Governments really have a boner for a dystopian tyrannical system like the film Equilibrium.

[@slaapliedje]

Ha, I can't blame Shatner for anything. I also would be annoyed by scams. Granted, I never really used Telegram either.

[@ever.silva7]

What a Joke the French republic bla bla. And now arrest all knife manufactures

[@jwind777]

Telegram isn't anywhere nearly as bad as what many people claim.

[@Foxconnpc]

Its Doorov like doom and gloom, not Dewrov :)

[@s7an10]

EU must go.

[@Trahloc]

One of the few things i disagree with you on. If there was a magic hand wave to fix kids and access everyone would be for it... Except that isn't true. Parents have had that ability since day 0 and they dont care. Why should unaffiliated adults sacrifice for strangers who can't be bothered to wiggle their pinky finger?

[@siwiecministro1994]

Exactly! At worst just "tag" certain IPs as adults (like "super cookies" from the past).

[@Trahloc]

@@siwiecministro1994 the problem is IPs can be shared, in fact it's strongly encouraged that they be shared. Considering websites that host adult material actively advertise what they have a parent can easily screen those sites. Making it the duty of hosts is unreasonable. Tens of thousands of sites can be on a single IP.

[@reecesx]

16:30 Why are you reiterating propaganda? That was written by a fed (Guise Bule) who wrote a webbrowser for the NSA (NNSA GOV). The first paragraph in his article is unironically "look at this tweet where somebody said their users are probably fans of the playground"

[@atticusherodes6648]

Thats how i talk to my wife.

[@magnum333]

Wait, this video isn't about how a victim Lunduke is? wow... that's something different.

[@w3w3w3]

Free Pavel Durov.

[@sergeantsapient]

I don't agree the newspaper should be held accountable *as a platform* for hosting the ad. They may have reasons for optics to not publish the ad but I don't see why they should be held accountable for hosting it. If a crime is being committed, then law enforcement should be taking care of the person actually committing the crime. This just sounds like a cuckservative take.

[@horusfalcon]

I don't really know how to feel about this. A lot will depend on the evidence presented to substantiate the charges leveled WRT CP. I'm a father, so I'm not really objective about that subject - it's wrong, it's vile, and it's against the law with good reasons for it being so. Something tells me that France, where the age of consent for someone not related to you is 15, and _for those related to you is 18_ (yeah... let that sink in a bit), is being a bit hypocritical charging anyone with any crime in this particular group, but that's just me. Never mind Denmark; there's something rotten in France!

[@zwerko]

Regardless of what you think about this particular case, trust me, they're not chasing Telegram because of sexually explicit material for/by/with teenagers... They are trying to stop far more vile versions of that 'industry'...

[@VirideSoryuLangley]

15-year-olds are teenagers, not children...

[@horusfalcon]

@@VirideSoryuLangley My daughter is 36 years old, and is _still my child._ Please don't try to split hairs on this. As her father, if someone does something unsavory to her, they _will answer to me._ A 13-year old is a _teen,_ but is still _someone's child._

[@VirideSoryuLangley]

@@horusfalcon So by your own definition, you're a pedophile, because your wife is someone else's child.

[@TheHelvetican]

I'm my life since I was little the bad people always run good things for the rest

[@noseltda4685]

Should weapons made to kill people, that are commonly used by felons to commit murder be banned. ..? Just the discussion is stupid. Unsubscribing now. Stupid.

[@bobclarke5913]

Viva la Stasi!

[@erincarson8998]

eff is racist. EFF will probably French action. I don't agree with the porn for children thing. May be true, but I don't think there is credible evidence.

[@siwiecministro1994]

If they were for prosecuting speech (hateful or whatever), they have no leg to stand on when it comes to freedom "of p0rn".

[@erincarson8998]

@@siwiecministro1994 It is about privacy, and not having to show ID. It isn't all that much about porn.

[@siwiecministro1994]

@@erincarson8998 I totally agree with privacy. I'm only suspicious of all those new-censors who when it was convenient for them were correctly defending freedom of speech, but when nonsense-peddlers from their side of the political aisle demand protection, they are conveniently also for it.

[@siemusashi]

You are wrong, in your paper example, the crime and the paper belongs to the same country. Telegram don't belong, or it's not placed in America or France where the crimes are committed. So Telegram don't have to respond to any request from those countries.

[@robotron1236]

Parents should just watch their kids. Also, your 15 year old son should totally be able to access corn and you should leave him alone when he does it. C’mom guys, you know you did it too…

[@HenryFordOfficial]

he was charged for not censoring anti-jewish content, simple as

[@EugeniusNaumenco]

I'm surprised money is still legal... you can buy so many harmful things using it! in fact, only our governments know how to use it. we should entrust them our capital, cause it'll be more secure and private like that

[@derek123wil0]

Money isn't technically capital. To most people it's just used to pay rent and cost of living

[@cheezy2455]

telegram. the biggest criminal meeting place

[@atticusherodes6648]

You mean google and fb?