THE START - Racing Rules Episode 2 - Backing a Sail, Right of Way, Pin End

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[@craigevans6292]

Matt & Neil, An excellent talk, many thanks, look forward to next week.

[@grahamhaire9636]

Amazing set of videos. I am looking at them for the third time as our race season is about to start in Australia. It's a good refresher.

[@timlewis5647]

Really good presentation. Thank you.

[@ajohncant]

Thanks - this is so useful!

[@cameronpierce9426]

First off, great presentation--thank you! I look forward to working my way through the rest of this series. A couple of questions/comments though: 1) ~17:00ff., question #1. I'm still a little perplexed by this answer/explanation. Keeping clear doesn't just entail avoiding contact (which yellow has been given room to do), but also entails that "the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action." This sentence seems crucial to me, for since, according to it, blue was not able to continue sailing her course, yellow did not keep clear. *But,* since the yellow boat wasn't given room to keep clear in this broader sense (as basically conceded at 18:50), blue seems to have broken the rule (presuming, again, that there was literally nowhere yellow could have gone to allow blue her normal course). According to this definition of keeping clear, shouldn't blue be penalized? I would also like to ask why there's no onus on yellow to assume blue's tack while she's performing the manoeuvre, as if yellow can act surprised when blue 'suddenly' appears on a close-hauled starboard tack near her? (I acknowledge the no-onus rule, but I don't understand it.) Or what if blue hails in advance of (or whilst) tacking, to inform yellow of her intentions? 2) ~21:50ff., overlap scenario re. rule 16.1. This scenario is a vivid commonplace in Laser (and other dinghy) sailing on the downwind leg, and I'm riveted by it... although I confess, I'm generally on the side of the blue boat! According to your analysis, it almost seems as if yellow has no burden to move at all: while blue is still far enough away that she can make a sudden movement without initiating contact, yellow can claim she's keeping clear and just sail her course. By the time blue has inched close enough that a sudden movement on her part would cause contact, yellow can claim that blue hasn't given her room to keep clear. Or consider the scenario: yellow consistently moved a little (but why?), but not sufficiently for blue to sail her course. Blue is clearly, continuously and smoothly, pushing windward; yellow is consistently responding less actively--but blue is finally at fault? I mean, how else could blue have claimed her right to sail further windward between steps #4 and 5? I want to say that once there's an overlap, yellow's burdened to keep a keen eye on blue, and keep heading up and keeping clear (as long as blue's within rights to sail that course). In other words, as long as blue isn't steering erratically towards/into yellow in an unseamanlike way, mustn't yellow be quick to respond & keep clear? (This is related to the question posed by Todd Grady below, but it doesn't seem, per your answer there, that yellow has been responding sufficiently in this scenario--she effectively forces blue into a position where, to sail her course, blue has no longer given yellow room to keep clear.) And what of the role of communication on the water? What if, in addition to pushing up steadily as in this example, blue has also been hailing 'head up!' all the while? A massive question here is how quickly is blue is entitled to sail her course (since 'every time there's a change of course, room must initially be given to keep clear'--a definition that's confounded by the fact that many course changes are continuous rather than discrete and bit-wise)? There are times when, engaged in hand-to-hand combat with another Laser downwind, we've sailed (e.g.,) hard by the lee on starboard, so that the leeward pin is well to our right/starboard side. Once I've won a leeward overlap from clear astern, I've sometimes been unable to turn in any timely fashion to the mark, because the yellow boat is slow to respond, even though well aware of my overlap, and of my earful of hailing--an agonizingly slow game of inching up, which can be effectively tantamount to no right-of-way after all. It's vexing stuff. Aside from erratic movements or slamming into yellow, I aver that blue has a right to move promptly on her course! Finally, parenthetically (sorry for the long excursus), in small boats at least, I find it remarkably easy to keep clear in most instances--it usually takes minimal time and space to do so--so I'm much less sympathetic to the give-way boat in these cases. (At least in your later examples of pre-start positioning to leeward at ~28:00ff., I'm glad that you seem to impute more responsibility to the windward boat to keep clear.) Thanks for obliging! cheers,

[@stujd1539]

The other rule that also applies in scenario 1 is that the leeward blue boat is also gaining on the yellow boat, i.e., is overtaking. So once the overlap is established, she cannot luff the windward yellow boat and must keep clear of the boat she is overtaking.

[@anthonyhowes8738]

Excellent thank you! I have a question. If two boats are on starboard tack, running and one boat is clearly astern. If the front boat changes to Port tact does she immedalty become the give way boat - rule 10 or only once they become overlapped - rule 12?? thanks

[@Debtwarrior]

When isaboat legally 'racing' is it only when a part crosses the line aftee the gun, or are they racing after gun anywhere, or from the start of the cpuntdown wherever they are?

[@larry9210]

The examples are very helpful. I am not a racer either, but it looks like if you can sail closer to the wind you being the leeward boat can force the upwind boat to tack away?

[@BR-hi6yt]

Overtaking boat keeps clear?

[@mikegrasley1993]

On the third example for Rule 15, even though the blue boat has gybed to a port tack, the yellow boat is still clear astern, so the yellow boat has not gained right of way. Does not seem like a proper example of the rule. Or am I missing something?

[@drewscott8353]

Thank for a well presented and informative narration of the rules, great job. A question (im new to racing), in rule 17 - same tack proper course. If the green boat (28min ish) has lost her way and is luffing with no other option but to fall off to gain steerage (make way) and blue boats comes in and claims the right of way position on her lee. How would that be judged in a protest hearing? The green boat was not given the room to move based on not having way to pass through the wind to the other tack, she could back a sail and reverse but has no rights in that scenario either. Green boat was in clear to fall off to gain her way but blue then blocked that option.Does a vessel not making way, stuck in iron by either error of judgement or other have any rights in that scenario

[@badassniall]

Hi Drew, I think you're talking about this scenario: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZLReHyMr82so5I As it's before the start, no boat has a proper course and so we don't have to worry about rule 17. When blue established the overlap to leeward of green she acquires right of way (changes from being clear astern keep clear boat to leeward right of way boat). The blue boat is therefore obligated under Rule 15 to initially give green room (the space she she needs in the existing conditions) to keep clear. It depends on the type of boats and the conditions but if green has no way on then that room she is entitled to could well include giving her space to fall off and gain her way. Green can't sit there doing nothing and claiming she can't because she has no way on but blue has to give her the space she needs to be able to keep clear.

[@drewscott8353]

@@badassniall Ok that clears that for me. many thanks

[@cameronpierce9426]

Just watched this again! 1) Question #1 at ~17:00ff. still makes no sense! *If* blue tacked to starboard in such a way as to initially give yellow room to keep clear (i.e., no crash-tacking required), then yellow must duly keep clear by tacking away--and a failure to do so promptly, resulting in blue luffing or (crash-)tacking away results in a penalty to yellow. *If* on the other hand, blue tacked to starboard in such as away to to *not* initially give yellow room to keep clear (in a seamanlike way), then blue must take a penalty. 2) My prior second question (i.e., ~21:50ff.) on leeward-windward rights, and room to keep clear, may be summarized rather pithily by the question: how does blue force yellow to luff up hard (and quickly)? Or when does yellow have to luff up hard (& quickly)? In many professional races, a windward boat steers aggressively clear as soon as there's a leeward overlap, and may even turn instantly head-to-wind if another boat has gained a leeward 'hook' in the pre-start. As against this, the agonizingly slow, fractional, incremental means of changing course & leaving room, depicted here, seems to make it impossible for blue to sail her course downwind (if she's acquired a leeward overlap in this way, and must now head back promptly to a mark to the right of both boats), or for blue to sail her course upwind (including a pre-start luff). Some clarification on these issues would be valuble. Thx,

[@toddjamin]

In your bit about 16.1, the blue boat has a consistent steer angle, surely it is still the windward boat that needs to keep clear, and needs to be keeping a gap big enough that the leeward boat can change course in either direction?

[@badassniall]

Hi Todd, every time the leeward boat makes an alteration of course she needs to give the windward boat room to keep clear. The windward boat does need to respond to those alterations and do everything she can do to continue keeping clear

[@BR-hi6yt]

What is the rule for a boat going backwards or sideways - easy nowadays for boats to purposely do either (by backing the sail or lifting centre board up)) - good tactic at the start to drop a match racing competitor who is closely tracking your every move!

[@cjprimata]

Back up on the start when on irons?

[@davidwebber6956]

makes the rules of cricket look absurdly simple....

[@tlangdon12]

Agreed! As a new sailor, my observation is that the rules for racing seem to principally be about the exceptions to the general rules. e.g. we drive on the left UNLESS it is a Wednesday, or there is an "R" in the month, or you are driving backwards, or ..., and so on. So learning the rules becomes an exercise in pattern-matching; spotting when one of these exception scenario is forming or might be forming. But having learned the rules, we also need to consider what our options are if we are the "give way" boat - what might be the best thing to do, to comply with the rules, but not disadvantage ourselves unnecessarily.

[@peterstratton9022]

What happens If im sitting close to the start line already closed hauled and a boat approaches from behind and to leeward , he then asks me to keep clear and/or luffs . He has to give me sufficient room to manoeuvre but i can't tack because there is a boat to windward , i can't luff because i have no way and my only option to keep clear would be to bear away to pick up speed but he is too close to enable me to do so . The two boats inevitably touch

[@spelunkerd]

The first thing to do is look at your stern and verify he is overlapped to leeward. If not, you have right of way over a boat astern and he has no right to push you up. Invariably approaching boats start shouting before they gain overlap, but you are not required to anticipate that. Shrug and tell him he is not overlapped. Once he gains overlap, you are required to act promptly and head up, even above close hauled, but he needs to give you time to achieve that otherwise he violates rule 15. If he is too close then your stern might swing over and hit him so you can't turn too quickly. If you cannot head up even a little because of boats above, you can shout back that you cannot do it because you will collide with the boat above. So then you shout to the guy above, who also deserves time to act on the request, and he in turn shouts to the guy above him, who needs time as well.

[@davechilling8139]

Is there a case dealing with sandwiched boats three boat overlap leeward boat luffs middle boat asks windward boat to head up but windward boat did not. Leeward boat protests middle boat but middle boat did not protest windward within time limit what happens there thanks

[@cjprimata]

Rule 21.3?

[@JohnPJorgensen]

Senario - While in a race boats enter a dead spot on the course - 2 Boats Port and Starboard or Windward and Leward ( Overlapped) - WITH NO WIND - NO MOVEMENT and NO STEERAGE - somehow manage to drift into contact - the non right of way boat could literally do nothing to keep clear not could the right of way boat ! .................. Who is in the wrong ?

[@badassniall]

Hi John, assuming that right of way previously existed (rule 15 doesn't apply) or the right of way boat hasn't altered course (rule 16 doesn't apply) then the keep clear boat would have failed to keep clear and broken rule 10 or 11