The State of Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - The Dungeoncast Ep.268

[@mirovalian2443]

Thanks for a another great year of the Dungeoncast guys, Looking forward to the next one!🎉 🥳

[@lordcinder6606]

I started playing DnD in high-school with a DM that was a 2.5e purist, so that's the version I started on. Yet have grown to enjoy 5e much more.

[@kurtoogle4576]

Much the same experience. 5e gets a lot right. :)

[@ranzigerkaefer]

if you think Lvl1 is squishy, you might as well try AD&D, where level 3 is still squishy and everything may kill you in 2 or 3 rounds, while you cant hit anything.

[@dualwieldroxas358]

Wizards in 5e have it good. They do not know the pain of being Lvl 10 and having 40 hitpoints xD

[@joshshin6819]

@@dualwieldroxas358 yeah fuck that noise. i made a wizard in 3.5 and was dead in the first round of combat because my HP at lvl 10 was so fucking low. I'll take 5e where i can at least take 1 hit (just 1).

[@Hablamannen]

Some of the things you talked about are a thing in Pathfinder 2nd edition. - Larger skill gap between those who are proficient and those who aren't. You add your level to your bonus for skills you are proficient in. This means that at 10th level you might have a +20 bonus to a skill. But the DCs also scale with your level, so if you're not proficient you can't catch up to reach that DC. - Degrees of success and failure. If you get 10 over the DC you get a crit success. If you get 10 below the DC you get a critical failure. Spells and actions all spell out what each degree of crit failure, failure, success, and crit success means. - You basically have one more max hit dice of HP on level 1.

[@paulh3892]

That all sounds really cool!

[@keithulhu]

Forgotten Realms as a setting would have been great if WotC had included the whole thing. But no, they chose to be hyper-focused on the Sword Coast.

[@kirin347]

My main issue with 5.5 is that 5.0 was so well done. It is far easier to go downhill from here rather than up.

[@unevenelephant469]

I'm hoping they just bring things up to the higher standards that Tasha's and the like have brought to the table. Regarding classes.

[@devinthunderstrike]

Sounds like all races are the same, so one race with different skins. My problem is the races are supposed to be different. In culture and biology and everything else. A cat is different from a dog is different from a monkey. This is not a disney cartoon with Mickey, Goofy and Donald Duck. In disney it doesn't matter. In D&D, it's supposed to matter!

[@brettschacht4183]

Here's to another year of one of the best podcasts on KZbin! Thanks for all the hard work guys!

[@moniXluv]

Community growth has more to do with the time we are living in more than edition choice. Online streams in particular. 3.5 & Pathfinder is not difficult to track. That's the go to criticism used these days.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

"i don't find it hard to track" doesn't it make the criticism invalid.

[@tenaciousgamer6892]

Classes that need changes most to least. Ranger, monk, warlock, sorcerer, barbarian, fighter, druid, artificer, cleric, wizard, paladin, rogue. In general we need more class specific spells, two weapon fighting needs a revamp. Exploration and survival needs more content/guidelines.

[@edwinbergeron4201]

Love the adventure time incites and also thoroughly enjoyed your disection of 5e so far. As always you guys are always so insightful and great to listen to. i think if you dove more into talking about other editions or game formats and directing that it would be an amazing series

[@benmorgan4790]

I would love to see you guys play ad&d 2nd ed. Or even becmi

[@rawgage7]

Gentlemen, much love for your channel. I have a challenge for you both for this next year; Everyone does tier categorizing of a classes, races, monsters, etc. But, no one has done tier categorizing of undead templates such as, "What's a more deadly/dynamic template for an Undead Human: zombie, mummy, vampire or lich?" 3.0e and 3.5e was brilliant how they had templates for humanoids and creatures that gave so many creative variations that DMs could play with for decades! Take the Gnoll Vampire for example, or the Feral Minotaur (I know the feral minotaur isn't undead but it's a unique template is my point.) Now, Tier those templates over creatures and, tier those templates against each other. Such as, which is more powerful, the Feral Template or the Vampire Template? Now, which monster is scarier with those templates, a Dragon or a Basilisk?? 🤯 I feel you guys would do a FAR better job at tiering these dynamic options over every other channel like this one! Consider this my Christmas gift and New Year's resolution for you guys to take and run with. Have fun with it and, until the end of the game... keep on rollin'! 🤘😎

[@syndicatedstudios4220]

Hey Brian and will, I just want to say your dnd podcast on Spotify has been so helpful and intriguing. I listen to it everytime I get into the car to go to work and on my way home from work. You guys have help to inspire ideas in this brand new dungeon master. I look forward to starting back up with my campaign and I have just restarted all the episodes in your catalog. Thank you for all the many hours of content you have produced. If only there was a way to rate your podcast on Spotify. But anywho keep up the good work

[@jehrad0]

Killer show. Lots of inspiration to use different rulings even in current 5e. Can’t wait to see what next year brings. Happy holidays guys

[@joshshin6819]

Pathfinder....aka 3.5 DnD. Fun game. But i really enjoy 5e for the simplicity of things. Id rather spend more time figuring out how to save the princess than to figure out the fucking numbers to save the princess.

[@CPTcast]

While I don't like playing them as much, 3.5/4e/PF 1e's piles and piles of customization options are great for theorycrafting more complex NPCs and enemies to convert to 5e.

[@sagesattva9789]

thank you for all the great stuff this year, i cant wait till the new year. love you guys.

[@cameronpearce5943]

I feel like their should be a step in between Proficiency and Expertises like Trained maybe

[@fearlessbird9422]

I laughed my face off at 29:05 😂

[@misomiso8228]

12:08 yes that's a much better way to do it. I've essentially completely abolished Darkvision in my games; it honestly makes the games a lot less interesting and removes a lot of the horror / mystery / terror potential of RPGs. Darkvision is very rare; only Drow and other races like it have it, though low light vision is a bit more common.

[@DarkinQusitor]

Try HACKMASTER 5 EDITION RPG

[@derangedhermit7981]

Its funny people said they hated 4E and now towards the end of 5E people are starting to wish for 4E systems. 4E still exists and you can play it at any time. I can only hope people start to go back to 4E so that its easier to find games online. Its my favorite tabletop rpg by a long shot. My problems with 5E are: - 5E has become (well really always has been) a game with 7 levels or so (3-10.) Very few people want to play the game beyond tier 2. That to me is very frustrating. - I also hate the lack of customization in being able to choose features. They don't have to all be combat features but it would be nice to differentiate yourself more. Personally I'd love to see feats divided between combat and noncombat with a progression system separate from each other. All to often I'm forced between the decision to pick a good rp feat or ability and what is the best combat optimization. - Another area 5E failed in is pigeon holing weapons. If your ranged you should take a hand crossbow if your melee it should be a polearm. If the cats already out of the bag so to speak you might as well go and make other weapons on par with these. It could have been as easy as making PAM and GWM available to all melee weapons and SS and CBE work with all ranged weapons. - The loosy goosy rule set. So many things are simply not quantified. Then there is the rule that you can ignore the rules. This makes finding games with people a nightmare. I want to know what my build or actions are going to do (or the probability if its a die roll) before hand. Yet at most tables it seems common place to ban feats and classes, ignore rules, come up with other rules out of the blue. Hell even league play bans official races... I feel like I'm a kid again getting into arguments about whether someone shot someone else in a game of cops and robbers. For the love of whatever god you believe in please just play by the rules. Maybe its because of the tactical mindset of 4E but this rarely seemed to happen back then. Although going from 2E to 3E was a nightmare of DM's wanting to mix the two editions... Anyway thats the end of my old man rant.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

none of that is valid criticism nor is it a failure of 5e. 5e not being what you want is a feature not a bug. like you said just go play 4e. the feats in particular are only a "problem" if you cater the players. most magic weapons listed aren't pole arms and none of them are crossbows ans only 1 is a bow so those feats make up for that. that complaint bothers me a lot because I find the reason for it to be so blatantly obvious. but hey maybe you didn't notice idk

[@derangedhermit7981]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Of course they are valid criticisms. One could say that shit smelling bad is a feature but its equally valid to say that the horrid smell is a valid criticism of shit. Its a game based around the players so yeah you should cater to the players. And yup I noticed and think its a retarded fix to a problem they created. Over all it was a post about how the things people hated about 4E are now things they miss in 5E and a list of personal complaints. But hey its a game were you can add or remove any rules you want so I have house rules to deal with all of the issues I have.

[@tenaciousgamer6892]

dark vision doesn't work how I think you two believe it does. darkness is still treated as dim light and only out to 60 feet. meaning everyone has disadvantage on perception checks as well -5 passive perception. the only time it matters is combat. Even then magical darkness is always dark unless you have some way of circumventing it.

[@hollowtpm]

yeah a lot of their criticisms felt more like failure to understand mechanics. But that is one respect can be a criticism of the ruleset if one can't understand how things work. Also to mention Darkvision is in grayscale, so you aren't going to notice much.

[@tenaciousgamer6892]

@@hollowtpmTrue, however I am confused why elves and others have darkvision I think they should instead get like increased range of vision or no disadvantage in dim light. Dwarfs, darkelves and teifling make sense to have dark vision.

[@Biostasis5x7]

There's a big difference between dim light and being blind in the dark. That's the difference between having darkvision and not having it. One means you can fight effectively and the other means you are basically swinging away blindfolded. Also, drow have superior darkvision because they live an almost entirely subterranean existence. Dwarves also, canonically, spend a large amount of time underground. Tieflings have darkvision because of their inherited fiendish ancestry. Now why Tieflings have it and dragonborn don't, even though Dragons have darkvision, isn't a design choice I made.

[@tenaciousgamer6892]

@@Biostasis5x7 That difference from a gameplay standpoint isnt as big as you think. At least not in 5e, so many spells and cantrips can give you light. Characters can precieve the world in ways other then with your eyes. Even if you are blind you can still attempt a attack at disadvantage and if you can give yourself advantage that becomes null. So just light your dungeons etc in dim light everyone is at the same level. As long as they have a fire at night they will be fine or if the moon is out.

[@zachcochran5738]

I prefer to always allow my players to roll any skill check BUT the race class and background will determine the information they get. So a nat 20 arcana check from an orc fighter will not give the same level of info as a 15 for a mage class for example.

[@cameronpearce5943]

I like the idea of 0th level characters who can kinda determine what class they’ll become

[@cameronpearce5943]

One thing I like to do as a DM (and as somebody who plays a wizard) is when a player tries to do something pushing the limits of what a spell can or is intended to do, allow an Arcana check to bend the rules

[@cameronpearce5943]

A religion or nature check for clerics and Druids, performance for bards, using their spellcasting ability score (Charisma, Arcana) for Sorcerers for example

[@misomiso8228]

Great Episode. Really interesting. You outlined a lot of the major issues with 5e, and it will be interesting to see what WotC do; I think they will defiantely make attribute bonuses 'chooseable' per race so you can play inteligent Orcs, Dextrous Dwarves etc, but the skill system is much harder to sort out as the simplicity of it is very attractive to causal players. I'm not sure if they will reduce the 'magic' in PC classes and subclasses as a lot of the younger players are used to high fantasy so love having their characers have some magic. The thing with the campaign setting is that for better or worse Forgotten Realms is THE default setting now for DnD, and changing it creates a lot of unnecessary churn. I think they will just keep it as default but maybe have a few more campaign books. Again though great episode guys well done.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

?are you a "hardcore" d&d player?

[@demonspawn2578]

Greatest skill challenge of all time - hoverboard race!

[@juliotrindade3398]

16:29 Pathfinde 2e

[@cameronpearce5943]

As a forgotten realms diehard fan I almost hope we get one last book as a send off too it for 5e and 5.5. Just a massive tome of all the lore that helps get everybody up to date not just on what’s been going on along the sword coast, but the whole of Toril. I want it to get the same treatment the MTG setting got with many some stats for fan favourite NPCs, magic items, and all the other things we wish were in SCAG but weren’t. Maybe a mini quest that serves as a low level introduction to The Realms as well as plot hooks to keep realms fans satisfied as we move away from Toril and onto other realms of the multiverse

[@kurtoogle4576]

- WoTC testing rules, asking players how games are played, & then adjusting is RARE & GREAT! - Your setting is your own. Racial/cultural/alignments are optional. Flexibility = Good. - Loosely tailor encounters to your party & it'll be fine. Don't fret about Darkvision or CR. - There s a VAST amount of D&D story & lore out there & it doesn't need a 5e stamp. Enjoy it!

[@jeffcook6735]

State of 5e? I say Florida. It’s beautiful and sunny. It also has crocodiles and meth.

[@HenriFaust]

Florida man is the epitome of 5e.

[@cameronpearce5943]

I’d like to see the Ranger be spell-less as a base class, but get a spell-casting subclass like the Eldritch Knight. And either make Beast Companions a seperate thing or a feat maybe? All rangers should have access too it, and so should everybody tbh because who doesn’t want a big doggo friend

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

everyone has access to companion animals they just don't get extra abilities like the various built in companions on various subclasses.

[@akashambatwamiller6924]

A member of the Old Guard I can tell you that 5th is a great game, and I truly dislike gatekeeping. We should have & make fun the way we want to have fun. I have been playing since 1983. PS powered By the Apocalypse is pretty cool for sure. it is LEGIT!

[@RiotKurhein]

The vision issue is solved by having all vision requires a source of light, it's just thise with Lowlight/Darkvision can take it farther than those without.

[@gopro_audio]

Limit the prime material plane to magical items between 1-3, if you want stronger items travel to the planes.

[@Hemperorjoans]

I started playing DnD briefly in highschool with pathfinder, and then people stopped inviting me to games, that was until a couple years ago I got invited into a 5e game online and now is bordering on a heroin like addiction lol. One thing I would like to see is more martial weapons choices, I'd personally like to see a dex based D8 slashing weapon, I'd also like to see different kind of conditions. I'd like to see something like bloody condition where you slowly lose HP till a successful medicine check and also cure wounds being able to fix a shattered bones is dumb, if someone smashes a warhammer on your shoulder numerous times, you should be crippled for an X amount of time.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

then do that, theres absolutely no reason to add into the core rules though.

[@HowtoRPG]

Yep, that sounds right.

[@kirin347]

You guys usually level mid adventure?

[@kirin347]

I only level players during downtime.

[@clintjones214]

I have dmed and played since ad&d. The only thing I want is for them to release Dark Sun for 5e.

[@carloscostacox]

Every character without 120ft Darkvision benefits from a Bullseye Lantern.

[@DavidMusic5885]

Can empathise with the balance stuff so much, the party can blow out the water with good initiative or be left in the dust with successive poor roles. Having to kill my vampire spawn around 15-30hp because their health regen is recking the pacing and draining the party of too many resources before the real bad guy shows up

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

why would you do that? if the party doesn't solve the problem the party should die. not everyone encounter needs to or should be deadly but if it is deadly then let it be deadly

[@DavidMusic5885]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 pacing

[@danielfaubert1903]

Just wanted to say that there are a couple of spells in icewind dale ;)

[@Kollerup]

When talking about darkvision it seems like people tend to forget that it’s only 60 feet for most races and black/white. Sure you can do alot with that but there’s also alot you can’t do.

[@masterwesty]

Don’t have any friends who have interest in D&D and it seems impossible to find anyone who is interested in my area. Shame as I’d love to play it.

[@lordk.gaimiz6881]

one person that really should be highered by wizards to work in the game is giphyglyph, they make amazing stuff that covers a lot of things that you guys talk about and some extra

[@greasysox]

I find pathfinder to be really limiting, maybe it's my dm, but like I feel like my spells aren't very versatile, maybe it's because I play magus

[@stevehankins5643]

All races without Darvision should just get goggles of night. I think it should be a basic Item.

[@infamous635]

I love how all the negative things they talk about I can say "Pathfinder 2e fixes that" to every single one of them. I know, I know, I'm that guy being like "other system is better than 5e", but I played 5e for like 4 years, and was very much "why would I wanna play Pathfinder 2e? I already have a medieval fantasy TTRPG that I know how to play, what's the point in learning a different one?" but once I actually gave in and played it I was like "Fuck, this feels so much better than 5e, and all I'm doing is playing a lv2 fighter!"

[@impartialthrone2097]

I think you really need to remember the limits of darkvision.

[@keithulhu]

I think Critical Role gives people unrealistic expectations of how D&D games should go, just like porn gave me unrealistic expectations of how long it takes the plumber to show up after I call.

[@paladinofthelostdays7392]

I cannot comprehend why people think that the ranger is a bad class in 5e, because it is absolutely amazing! For the first two-thirds of the entire game it is probably going to be your best damage dealer in any party and it has more utility then almost any other Marshall typeclass through those levels, and they are just an overall phenomenal class that I would actively choose any time for any party

[@czcrossman]

Yes this! I’ve never played a Ranger but in one of my current games we have a 6 person party all at level 6 (Barbarian, Bladesinger, Fighter, Bard, Cleric, Ranger) and the Ranger has been the #1 damage dealer by a long shot, besides helping a TON with scouting & stealth and all kinds of other stuff.

[@MARSHOMEWORLD]

I playtested what was to become 5th edition in 2014 when it was called D&D next... Thought it was very streamlined and would probably do well to bring a bunch of people into the hobby because it was so dumbed down bear in mind I'm a thousand years old and was playing basic the Indy in 1983, so I've seen all the versions of it come and go, survived the satanic Panic of the 80s when people were literally waiting on the schoolyard to beat me up because of my DND lunchbox etcetera, PS I learned to put rocks in that fucker and dealt out the damage like it was a MorningStar when need be... anyway, the state of 5e is abysmal. Not the game itself or the rules, it's fine it totally works and because of the input of some of the developers that helped keep it mindful of being an evergreen product... It should survive for a while in fact there is no need for a 6th edition except for a callus money grab. B5e revisions that are coming along will strictly be to accommodate the sjw whining that has bought into the delusion RPGs of the old-school variety were filled with misogynistic hate-filled trolls who wanted nothing to do with other ethnic groups not having access to the game... It's all lies, I was there. In the thick of it. None of that gatekeeping crap actually happened, we were so grateful when other people let alone women actually wanted to play this game there was no room for misogyny. I can only paint with broad Strokes currently, as no one asportation speaks or an entire group but I do feel badly for modern Gamers who have not experienced having earned fandom it was an uphill climb to say the least back in those days and that doesn't mean it was better, it just means it felt way more golden to have found like-minded individuals among all the normals.

[@paulh3892]

Thanks to you guys and the TDC crew on Discord for a great year, and congratulations your growing families! Concerning 5e, it’s been an awesome and inclusive edition. My only major complaint is the lack of online support to those who have bought or been gifted physical copies of the books. It’s so fun to flip through the pages and share them, but it’s really frustrating that there isn’t a digital copy included for playing with friends online AND in person… especially with how crazy things have been with the pandemic.

[@MaindexOmega]

I don't like 5e as much as i used to. After xanathar, everything was downhill for me. 5e is turning into something... Weird. It feels less dnd as time goes on. Also i really hate wotc as a company, but that's me. I mean, play what you want, i'll do the same. I'm pretty hooked on pathfinder 2e

[@uhthin]

This aged well

[@Zakharon]

Things D&D 5E has done wrong: Hasn't given me Swordmage back from 4E

[@Iceblade269]

Bladesinger?

[@Zakharon]

@@Iceblade269 bladesinger is like half of it, instead of making it a class they chopped it in half, eldrich knight and bladesinger, not to mention if I remember right, Swordmage had special sword spells tailor made for the class

[@darkcow7of9]

Wokeness ruined this game for me

[@Jakzul1]

21:23 how curious is that a lot of channels feels the same about 5e's mechanics and general stuff. At the end, when WOTC is done dumpping every interesting and rich part of d&d to the garbage, will left the feeling that 5e was just the easy mode of the game meant for newbies. i know it sounds like im a hater or something, but after been started with this edition, and been through all this many years of 5e. wotc left me with the feeling that as a company they just wanted to sell pamphlets and thats why every book feels like it is half-baked on purpose. maybe it just me and is something that only time will tells. 🤔

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

so many of the comments are bad criticism (most of the top ones fail to even be criticism) no one is making you play 5e and no one is making you play 5e with only the core rules. most of the "I want this game to kill me/my players more" you can solve very easily by just playing one of the older editions you guys keep comparing it to or adding a couple homebrew rules for injuries. how can you possibly think its accurate to claim 5e not catering to your specific preferred playstyle is some how a mark against the system as a whole? its just not for you! get over it! screw all the weirdo gate keepers whinging on about new players and "casuals." just go play a different game its not a big deal.

[@billwhipple9039]

I disagree that dnd giving more lore is a good thing. It's a different form of railroading. Yes, a DM always has free will but once it's official lore there is an expectation that it will be the lore What I'm looking for is more characterization and descriptions of how the monsters fight. Give me a combat strategy guide that has solid flavor text and 1 to 3 paragraphs of lore for each race or monster. That would help me far more than pages of lore ever will

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

"its a different form of railroading that doesn't have to be followed" mate what

[@billwhipple9039]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 what? did you miss the part where you're not the only one playing the game? As I explained, there is an expectation. The only people who could have that expectation are the players. As a dm I have the ability to not to follow anything, except for the players Established lore known by players is a problem every DM has to deal with, unless you're playing by adventurers league rules. Adding more lore that is "set in stone" for players makes the issue more difficult, or at least more frequent I don't DM to get players to play in a world I make, I DM so players can play in in a world they want to play in. More lore gives them an expectation that the world they want to play in has that lore. I don't love having to disappoint players. I like it even less when I disappoint them because a campaign doesn't have the very arbitrary lore baked into it that they expect (you know, because it's established lore)

[@Finniganmydog]

5e got me back into gaming during COVID after a 20 year hiatus from 2e. Now 2 years in I am done with the bloat and WOTC catering to the Twitter mob that does not even play the game. This version is bland, safe, impossible to have character deaths. and boring despite some of the great mechanics. I am taking Advantage / Disadvantage and Exhaustion to my new game and not buying any more WOTC dribble.

[@PabloVagabundo]

Good summary and so much of of the bad list were deal breakers for me. Been playing since mid-80s (started with BECMI and 2e) , so I've seen the cycles and 5e just reversed so much of progress they made with 4e that I couldn't make the jump for the first time in my DM life. Shame. Maybe they can introduce all the stuff they lost in 5.5. For now still rocking 4e.

[@darksun273]

The state for the monster suck

[@DarkinQusitor]

D&D 5th edtion sucks ITS a game for spoiled kids, that cant take that there characters Can be killed. Try a old school game with modern rules, that is Very deadly. HACKMASTER 5 EDITION , OR OLD SCHOOL ESSENTIALS.

[@who_is_the_doc]

D&D died with the last irata

[@WayneBraack]

Woke and going more woke. Getting more generic. Deleting creature lore. Getting rid of heroic fantasy good vs evil style. Putting modern neo Marxist politics onto the game. Ruined the medieval feel and setting. No longer long term campaign structured, moved to long adventures of no consequences to the player world. Not for realistic minded gamers.

[@HenriFaust]

With all the censorship going on in 5e now, I sense a stormy future on the horizon for 5.5e.

[@margar9021]

Censorship?

[@HenriFaust]

@@margar9021 There have been factually inaccurate claims for years from the über-racists in the press that orcs in Tolkien -- and by extension D&D -- were really just stand-ins for black people (For the record, Tolkien wrote that he was inspired by Genghis Khan and the Mongols). Recent leaks from WotC have shown that either there are a number of people working there who believe such claims, or at the very least, WotC staff does not stand by their own work and is willing to change it at the behest of said über-racists. Unfortunately I can't directly link you to the leaks themselves due to KZbin policy, but so I will have to link you to KZbinrs discussing the leaks: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rom2kIV_p9uDebs

[@Feasael]

@@margar9021 Oh god help us. You had to poke the troll.

[@HenriFaust]

I disagree with you about cantrips. Both sorcerers and warlocks already filled the role of blaster mage back in 3E and 3.5E. Requiring the wizard to burn one of his valuable spell slots forced the wizard to think more creatively about solving problems, and in the event of combat, encouraged cooperative play. Making cantrips at will is one of the worst mistakes that D&D has made to support the murderhobo mentality.

[@dr.death4377]

5 e is crap

[@juliotrindade3398]

23:51 Pathfinder 2e

[@juliotrindade3398]

21:25 Pathfinder 2e