The stream - No games for women with 'too much' testosterone

No games for women with 'too much' testosterone
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On The Stream: Fairness in women’s athletics and the debate around testosterone testing.
Thumbnail: After claiming the world 800-meter title in a fast time at her first major international meet in 2009, South Africa's Caster Semenya was subjected to invasive gender tests because of her muscular build and rapid improvement in times. (AP/MARTIN MEISSNER)
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[@weedermann]

No. If they were born with it, is part of their makeup..their "talent".

[@catloran3860]

you are dumb, you don't understand biology. There is no Y.

[@spiderjump]

Yes but caster is not a woman .

[@m.jenkins3012]

No one acknowledges that there are other women with the same condition and even compete against her , and who do not win or come close to first. I’m less inclined to believe it’s all about the testosterone and more about her athletic discipline. Because no one would be mad if she was not winning.

[@FrancisRoyCA]

The comment that "this is another instance of regulating women" is correct, but it is attempt to regulate to provide some women who aren't as competitive with an unearned benefit; it is an attempt to lower the bar for some women. I'm all for having unisex competitions, by all means, let us have male and female weight lifters and sprinters, swimmers an so on. Another way to do it might be to compete by weight classes, as do boxers. The problem with the conversation being held, is that they are focusing on one issue: the type or quantity of testosterone. Much of it is lawyerly nit-picking to score political points. There are many factors that make men superior in some sports: generally quicker reflexes, the physical construction of our bodies that provide beneficial mechanics and so on. If "equality" and "fairness" means anything, and we wish to be non-sexist, then let us allow the playing field to be what it is, rather than trying to shape it to some ideological notion. This having been done, however, none may complain should men win the majority of the competitions, then spin it off as another instance of "male oppression." The term "fair competition" is an oxymoron.

[@pavan151]

If sport gets taken to the lengths where they biologically have to compare one another, there is no point.. Certain people are naturally gifted and you can't take that away from them. This is just another discriminating thing they do towards woman imo.

[@87fg]

I like sports, but the "fairness" concept is ludicrous. If this was about "fairness" then we would give performance enhancing drugs to weaker athletes.How is it fair that someone is born stronger and faster? According to the IOC standards men with high testosterone should not participate at all. It would be "unfair" to the weaker men. It seems to me there is no such thing as "unfair advantage ." This testosterone testing is nothing more than a form of sex discrimination.

[@catloran3860]

there are men who make 3 to 4 times the amount of testosterone than other men...and majority of them are playing in football. basketball and track. I guess we should bare them from competing against "lesser" men.

[@alesmith2539]

Poor doctor... he was trying to explain something...not even once he finished a sentance xD

[@jokuhunaify]

So a man can declare him self as woman and then compete in female competitions?

[@butterfly8272]

jokurt kultur yes, that's what this has come to. Usa should put Caitlyn Jenner now competing against women and WIN!!

[@weedermann]

jokurt kultur You would have a problem with a woman who transgendered into a man and competed as a man?

[@phoenixnmhesq]

I'm hoping you unserstand that this young woman did not "declare" herself a woman. She didn't know a thing about testes inside of her body. She has been living as a woman her entire life.

[@electric_boogaloo496]

The only real way to solve this problem is to do away with separate competitions for men and women. Controversies like these arise because we female athletes have to be "protected" from men in a competition. And women with hyperandogenism are functionally equivalent to the male athlete we are trying to protect them from.

[@exhainca]

testosterone enhances muscle volume. end of discussion.

[@exbf23]

His sperm makes him a man

[@iamb2348]

Not just that. It enhances everything in terms of anabolic processes. Anything in terms of speed, power, strength, endurance, recovery is enhanced by testosterone.

[@bonstad]

This woman thinks were talking about women that look like men. That has nothing to do with it. It has to do with having testes or a "y" chromosome.

[@TeoGrehan]

In New Zealand because some of the Maori kids are so big you get 60kg 12yr olds playing 30kg 12yr olds. Because of this they have a weight category rather than age.

[@Smegma007]

Short answer, no. However, self identifying women born men shouldn't be allowed, even if by definition falls into this category... As for women being successful without testosterone, it can be true, however I'd look into the sports that these women are having success in. If the activities are not physically strenuous, then the feminist panellist is trying to mislead the audience.

[@JessicaAhibo]

Running is about milli seconds, picture finish. Marion Jones is a fantastic athlete who worked very hard but she took steroids, performance enhancers so they took her medal. If an average person takes steroids they will never run as fast as olympians. But Olympian to olympians, milli seconds, to picture finish testosterone does matter.

[@macoy9999]

The female 800 M in Rio wasn't decided by milli seconds. If you put a female in with a male, in a contact sport testorerone matters. Just because it's a sport defined by time, hormone levels will make the bigger difference at the elite level. It's not a magic pill to turn average people into Olympians overnight.

[@Smegma007]

And that argument from the feminist about some conspiracy to make women to conform to the notion that they must be pretty at all times is fucking bogus.

[@MrSzeklerdude]

feminists are the biggest loons of our time

[@wojtek_freak_of_science]

Compete with men and there will be no controversion, Semenya, Wambui and Niyonsaba. Or IAAF should create open category and there can compete everybody without any allegation. But women competition should be for women with normal level of testosterone below 2.0 nmol/L.

[@piotrzagorski611]

There is no division into tall and short in basketball, though there is into man and woman. Semenya is like 80 kg wrestler fighting against 70 kg rivals. If Caster have rights running with women without testosterone, division into gender has no sense.

[@macoy9999]

I feel bad for the actually educated experts involoved in this inteview -The Dr Ritzen, and the luge athlete. They understand the topic better compare to the feminist Hinda, and the other lady who keeps interupting. The Male host/commentator who keep going to people on twitter world bs for quesitons and comment, should be asking his own prepared questions. Let the experts talk, respond and not talking heads on twitter.

[@zimbabwebassguy3441]

We should also shorten the hands of those with long hands as this gives them an unfair advantage e.g. Phelps. For me the only question is, is one male or female?

[@AJ-gz8qw]

No i disagree this is horrible and very unfair. If woman are born with it then thats the way god made them to be no one should have to lower themselves so others can catch up. Practice harder and see better results.....

[@wanjirumburu5629]

This is simply a case of discrimination against women and especially of African descent who do not look like your average European standard of beauty. point blank period!!!!! so not having long flowing hair, soft facial feminine features.

[@catloran3860]

exactly!

[@mikerichardson60]

Halle Barry, Rhianna, Beyonce etc etc...my God there’s millions of beautiful feminine women. Caster looks more like Usain Bolt then any natural women.

[@brianglover7090]

Please note that Caster is running good but not elite times for women. 10 women have run faster. Does that mean nothing?

[@mikerichardson60]

Brian Glover yeah it means she’s not a very good male athlete..just good enough to beat girls

[@lilidiaz3158]

I think Caster should not be criticized for her looks or for being intersexed. what interests me is if high testosterone in intersexed women really is an advantage. Everything else is irrelevant and discriminatory. Dr Ritz did say a couple of interesting things and Hilda is protecting intersex rights. As she should. Everything makes sense. but they havent found out yet if high testosterone levels in females is an advantage.

[@blix101112]

Would being a genetic MALE be an advantage?

[@TeoGrehan]

When she has 3 times the amount of testosterone it obviously helps. Simple look at the races.

[@738polarbear]

Third gender introduction .Androgenoid .End of discussion.Let her/him compete against others the same..neither men nor women.

[@tyanzambia9653]

It's a pity that a question of the amount of testosterone one has to have in order to qualify into the tournament still remains undetermined particularly in female athletes. The IOC and other sports regulatory bodies must set up a standard or benchmarks and lay down clear legislation that will apply should one be found in excess of the required amount. It's as clear as that.

[@weedermann]

tyan zambia "Is a pity" that a naturally occurring substance in your body needs to be modified to please others. There are women who are naturally faster than I am...should I insist that all such women increase estrogen or whatever hormone needed to diminish their natural speed?

[@00788]

This isn't that hard if your born in the middle and your more masculine but it's natures gift so be it! It's not fare but its the nature of physical competition maybe there should be a middle gender category or improve testing to include other test beside T testing

[@ngwakogift5432]

mokgadi is a woman gud people plz stop it

[@catloran3860]

LOL, she is a total woman. maybe we should we should ask Usain Bolt to get shorter to give the other athletes a fair chance.

[@hayleyc3524]

I feel bad for the guy using objective, scientific terms like "abnormality" & "mutation" and these people interpreting it socially and emotionally. He just means it's not mathematically typical.

[@lillianmhanduu]

thats stupid so beyonce must remove her singing vocals because she sing better than others

[@mikerichardson60]

Let the “normal’ women enhance their testosterone levels to the same as the intersex athletes and see the results.

[@doonyloony1043]

These people are an society

[@ghty181]

Think about applying this same logic to LeBron. Should he not play with men? 🤷

[@blix101112]

Think about LeBron deciding to gender-identify as a woman. Could he then play against women?

[@ginastotallybodaciousunive2375]

Just add another category for athletes maybe

[@Hever73]

at least Indian athlete looks more feminine than Semenya

[@doonyloony1043]

Talent and an talents

[@etiennenel8407]

No you spoke to him

[@doonyloony1043]

Selfishness

[@NikunjaGoswami]

Bullshit...

[@MsTriteseariaCammy]

at this point if I was a real regular normal female athlete and I had to compete against these metahumans I would not compete the whole purpose of having an Olympic competition is just supposed to be regular people there is a Special Olympics I don't care if you got special hormones special feelings about what you are inside I don't care what special about you there is a Special Olympics for that why can't we exist in this normal world what normal people doing normal things why wouldn't everyday woman everyone compete against a metahuman or a drug enhanced human or a chemically altered scientifically altered human what is the point I mean the real ethics about this whole conversation. why have an Olympics. pretty soon transgenders are going to call themselves female athletes. Bruce Jenner competed as a man but felt like he was a woman so should he get back his gold and his title says he felt like he was a woman all these years but I mean the confusion and the confused gender people is exhausting and I feel like Bruce Jenner should be stripped of his title just like he stripped himself of his manhood.

[@lorenzoniyongabo7210]

payoshni was annoying

[@sheilaking7732]

she also have an ovary

[@Bigol2incher]

Good