The Suprising Truth About Beauty Standards in the Middle Ages

[@db_37205]

The recipe for soap is simply a mixture of potassium hydroxide and oil/fat. The potassium hydroxide comes from mixing the ashes of a fire ("pot ash" = potassium) dissolved in water. By itself, the straight lye dissolves skin, fat and protein. Mixing it with a fat or oil and water in the correct proportion decreases the lye's ability to eat the skin from your body to a substance that allows dirt, oils (body odor), and other filth to be dissolved in water and washed away.

[@paultuerena]

It’s not quite that simple, there is a process that occurs called saponification

[@db_37205]

@@paultuerena I just described saponification, the mixture of lye with an oil leading to combined properties of both oil and water where the surface tension of water is lessened while the "soap" allows the mixing of both oils and water so that water can literally wash both the dirt and oils away.

[@paultuerena]

@@db_37205 apologies very early in the morning and I possibly misread! Never comment before coffee!

[@db_37205]

@@paultuerena I don't even have a heartbeat before my morning coffee ☺

[@BobUikder-ig4uq]

@@paultuerenathe fact that your blatantly wrong comment that looks like you wrote it without even reading the words got 6 likes is insane

[@moxiebombshell]

6:54 Reminds me of reading about how difficult it is to reconstruct women's clothing for some periods! Somewhat in the reverse of today, it was the *men's* clothes written about in great detail - the cut and style of his garments, adjective-filled descriptions of their color and fabric, etc. - then just, "the bride wore a gown of woo!."

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

Men were the first to wear pink, too, it was extremely popular for them🙂

[@voornaam3191]

Poor sheep. Shivering with cold, all they had was woo!.

[@riverAmazonNZ]

“Middle aged men are the hottest” - middle aged male writer in medieval times 😂

[@653j521]

Was it their money or social standing that made them the hottest?

[@user-sg4ov7ng4h]

​@@653j521im thinking maybe it was made by men or its related to physical activites, maybe the become stronger or its the climax of themselves, like athletes. (A lot of times we think 30s but ive seen 40 yo dancers)

[@annakalicka3430]

@@653j521 I'm guessing their patronage to the poets describing the standards of beauty for both female and male was a main reason for pushing middle aged men as "hottest" - they could afford to pay for their views to be presented as "objective truths" - if objective truth was of any value anyway.😁

[@graphiquejack]

I think it’s that men needed to be more established and able to provide for a family, and most younger men, especially if they weren’t firstborn, probably weren’t able to do that. As for physical appearance, we don’t have a lot of historical women writing about what they found sexy in men. But apparently Lancelot was a stud… lol

[@hw2803]

I mean they used a man in his 40s (Momoa) as an example for male attractiveness themselve.

[@kimichan5]

“Feet.” “I have feet!” 😂

[@4gma59]

🤣

[@Schemez-16vhiphopbeatz]

someone mention feet

[@Petra_the_explorer]

I love their dynamic!! This really represents a genuine conversation between two friends about a subject they are passionate about. More of both Dr Lister and Dr Janega please! Also the topic is really interesting

[@rosemarymcbride3419]

love this discussion! I'm very far from the core of beauty standards now and in the medieval period, but I have a feeling I'd've been seen as dead sexy in the paleolithic

[@ericafors6039]

😂😂😂❤

[@monikel]

😅😅😅

[@sharonkaczorowski8690]

Awesome! I love it.

[@cristianproust]

Thinking that it is a social construct with the amount of science we have is pure madness.

[@ingloriousbetch4302]

I'm just looking for the time period where super short, not scrawny but not quite chubby, small eyes and short waist come into the ultimate fashion

[@paulmaher5846]

I worked as a volunteer on archaeological digs years ago, and the palaeontologist was able to fairly accurately date remains to before or after the 1500s (when sugar became widely available from the americas) by looking at the teeth of a skull. Basically, after refined sugar was introduced, dental hygiene goes to hell

[@warellis]

Prior to the introduction of sugar, teeth generally wore down due to millstone pieces in grain and bread

[@onelazysusan]

I imagine that using one’s teeth as tools put some wear on them, as well

[@user-sg4ov7ng4h]

Depends i guess. The more you bite as a kif the more theyll be straight so it might bz in the same boat

[@rogueredshirt5239]

Paleontologist? That's for dinosaurs. They aren't on archeological digs.

[@Alejojojo6]

Sugar existed before the Americas... sugar was produce in europe through beet...

[@annemariemattheyse808]

“I’m medieval hot!” is just such a great quote! 😂

[@alyssoid]

I love seeing these two together! Going through the list of medieval beauty standards cracked me up, especially the dumptruck a**

[@moderatedoomer2945]

I love seeing someone with the same flat, slightly nasal, Western US accent just kicking ass as a Medievalist in the heart of the City of London. Go on, Queen!

[@rfvtgbzhn]

Actually I read that US accent is closer to older English accents than modern UK accent.

[@rebeccawayman4219]

She is the queen. I love both these ladies.

[@aplaceinthestars3207]

It was so cute how excited Dr. Lister got in hitting each checkbox for medieval hotness.

[@nitt3rz]

This is a brilliant authentic discussion! Hearing a serious historian say, "Dump-truck ass" is so funny.

[@Dave1507]

"Dumptruck ass" Yeah, that sounds medieval... 😁 Love these two together!

[@marieclaudebedard6728]

Me too! But why o why all the beeps! I hate those! If people can't handle simple describing non hateful words, they can just watch something else! It's so puritanical! So: sex, ass, shit, boobs and fucking penis! There!

[@stephanieneshqiperistephan1317]

Mucilage is the softening agent in the barley water, Irish root is a stabilizer and anchors scent

[@Emthe30something]

I click in quickly quite often to history hit. But when I saw this drop I had to drop everything. I appreciate the frank approachable discussion. the compare contrast to how much has changed and how much has stayed the same. More more more please.

[@mikaelthomas1138]

8:23 "I have feet!" I love just listening to these women banter, and I'm glad I live in a time when I'm allowed to respect them. God the past sucked.

[@thequintanashow5058]

Lack of visible ulceration was hot 👍🏽

[@SofaKingShit]

And whoever among them owned the most serfs blighted with the least amount of pustules who lived upon the vastest tracts of land was the hottest of all methinks. Yea verily.

[@kimberlypatton205]

As was pulling your visible hairline halfway back on your head from your forehead, and slathering your face with lead and arsenic.In place of perfume, just dont ever take a bath after the age of infancy.

[@Bluewomanredstate]

😂😂😂

[@thequintanashow5058]

@@SofaKingShit right, the classic, “well, he’s serf hot, soooo….”

[@fimbulsummer]

Still is, baby!

[@jbear3562]

I can't speak for Aristotle nor Plato, but for me, both Dr Janega and Dr Lister lister are GORGEOUS!

[@wesleymons]

I could listen to these two all day long

[@Lioness_and_Compass_Rose]

I’ve learned about Hildegard of Bingen but I have never heard she was a skin care girly. Love it!

[@AmaraJordanMusic]

She’s my confirmation saint, so I adore her, but I didn’t know this! 😅

[@arinasosnovskaya5298]

Thanks!

[@sqwl222]

am I the only one distracted by the color grading being different between the shots?

[@Sgirl]

Was driving me nuts. Who did that? Did no one notice?

[@jillwanlin9558]

Yeh, not a good effect.

[@coffeenoobie]

I believe it's caused by lens flare and the camera from the front. The light bouncing on the lens affects the color?

[@EverybodysWrong]

And the bowl filled with books, moves with every shot😮 center, left, right… and the mirror to her left, then not…weird

[@Edgar_Medina]

I thought I was having a stroke

[@jilldesruisseau]

I would love to buy them a pint in a pub and just listen to the stories.

[@ralu0filth]

Eleanor Janega is just awesome!

[@benburkin7942]

My two favourite presenters! Another great video, the beeped swearing made me chuckle ... the conversation felt more authentic for it. Always fun to see what insights you two can give us into medieval life and the absurdities of commonly held cultural beliefs.

[@kisa229]

Except they forgot one fuck somewhere in the second half 😂

[@LostintheTangle]

​@@kisa229 That was the fuck they were allowed to give! 😉😁

[@BobGeogeo]

The "millihelen" was the unit of female beauty in the Guinness book from my teens. It meant beauty sufficient to launch one ship. The origin was Helen of Troy's beauty being enough to launch 1,000 ships. Edit: I think the Guinness editors may have been throwing a joke into the book.

[@h0rriphic]

naw a millihelen is totally a legit unit of measurement

[@Patriot1789]

That is “hysterical.” A roaming uterus for men?

[@EllenACook]

How would one measure a milihelen, I wonder? Take pictures of the lady in question to a series of navy ships, and begin canvassing the crews to find out how many would be willing to launch their ship for her? But then one would have to factor in that modern ships are much larger than those in the Bronze Age, and scale the ships accordingly.

[@eisirt55]

Great discussion. Two very bright women . Full of wit and humour .

[@LeandroCapstick]

These two Historians are always fantastic together.

[@peterjones7673]

Once again Dr Eleanor delivers a great insight of what ideals were like, Thanks Dr Eleanor

[@kieran2221]

The frankness of this conversation is awesome :)

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

Organic distilled rosewater is an ancient cosmetic product that I love. It smooths, moisturizes and softens skin without adding any grease or oil, and it smells wonderful. I can’t stand greasy hands, especially working with silk fabrics as I often do. Or those horrible candy, fruity, muffin smells they put in everything nowadays, give me florals instead.

[@alinashirinian2485]

I second this! Rosewater is amazing both as a cosmetic product and as a culinary ingredient.

[@VS-re1sr]

I love learning about ancient beauty because the mix of "why don't we do this anymore?" and "this is why we do not do this anymore" is just insane. Caring for hair by brushing out the dead skin cells to clean hair seems to be coming back in the form of the curly girl method. Officially we no longer whiten skin with lead, mercury, or arsenic unless you find a lightening cream that actually works. We no longer drip belladonna in our eyes to achieve the appearance of deadly desire. We only inject neurotoxins (botox) in our faces and take a lot of unregulated pills/powders/potions of unknown content to acheive the perfect body, so clearly we have come a long way.

[@Thewholetree]

Thirded! Rosewater is sooo good for delicate face skin!

[@WHJeffB]

Love Dr. Eleanor... Smart, knowledgeable and a fantastic presenter. Would love to sit through one of her college lectures. That she's killing it over in the UK is fantastic. She and the other American (guy) that is curator of the arms collection somewhere over there are a credit to American history scholars. Eleanor has that contagious energy about her... I'm sure she's the "belle" of the history nerd balls in academic circles. Bet she's a lot of fun to hang out with, at least if you're talking medieval history!

[@mtngrl5859]

One of the great beauties of the medieval age was Eleanor of Aquitaine. Like many other beautiful and/or powerful women she had her share of rumors. But this idea that one had to "young" to be the epitome of beauty, is not correct. While she was indeed young when she married the King of France, by the time she married Henry ll of England, she was 30, he was 18. At that time she was still renowned as one of the most beautiful women in existence. They proceeded to have I believe 8 children together and the last one was born when she was 44. Her son King John married the beautiful Isabelle of Angouleme. She was a widow in mid-twenties, and remarried at 30 and proceeded to have 8-10 children with her new husband. Fertility and beauty were more intertwined in that era than the present day.

[@grannyannie2948]

Perhaps good health was also seen as beautiful. Eleanor lived to be quite old. Before having children with Henry she had two daughters to the King of France. She gave them up to marry Henry. Henry also had two illegitimate sons to Rosemund.

[@mtngrl5859]

@@grannyannie2948 I think good health was highly desirable in a royal wife, it would allow one to produce more offspring, an essential element in a royal spouse. In terms of Eleanor, she brought a highly valuable asset being the Duchy of Aquitaine. While she married her first husband, the King of France, when she was 15 and in 14 years of marriage she only had 2 children. Her husband was known to be highly religious & not inclined to be overly sexual, so at the time of their divorce it was uncertain how fertile she would be with another spouse. Louis himself was not able to have a male heir (essential in France due to Salic law of inheritance) until his third marriage. Eleanor and Henry ll had a more lusty marriage, so she surprised many with giving birth to 6 children.

[@grannyannie2948]

@@mtngrl5859 I can't read your full comment. Yes she did. And with Richard and another son who escapes me, used it to essentially commit treason against Henry. He imprisoned her for years.

[@grannyannie2948]

@@mtngrl5859 Now I can see it. Nice to meet someone interested in Eleanor.

[@mtngrl5859]

@@grannyannie2948 Not sure why you can't read my comment, it appears fully visible. Likely the other son you are referring to was Geoffrey.

[@000hms]

Lye, ash, beef tallow. My grandmother made her own soap through the 1970s. That stuff could take all the dirt plus a layer or two of skin.

[@ellaella2885]

My grandmother did that too around same years or probably earlier than I was born xx

[@iknowright140]

I followed both of your separate podcasts and History Hit, could you 2 wonderful ladies please just have your own podcast because every time I’m sad or come home drunk all I wanna do is listen to you 2 talk about anything and have a laugh ❤ greetings from an Australian living in Cambodia

[@azabujuban-hito-dake]

And here in Japan we still like going to the sentou ( public bath ) together with our friends and family. It's a nice way to bond. Foreigners usually shocked because wearing any bathing suit is npt allowed in sentou.

[@UnholyKat]

My two favorite historians together again talking about a subject I love!

[@moxiebombshell]

My two biggest parasocial crushes in the world, right here.

[@lindsaydrewe8219]

I could listen to these 2 all day❤❤

[@brookereinke807]

Two of my absolute favorites!! They need more videos/podcasts together!!

[@eveningstar1]

Fascinating conversation!

[@shawnnac760]

I love the nature of this video. Relaxed conversation

[@Wait4me2]

So happy to see Eleanor Janega again! I bought and read her book as soon as it was available and enjoyed it very much. Thanks very much for this video, I could listen to Eleanor conversate all day.

[@CrisSelene]

Bought the book. Can’t wait to read it. I'm really interested in the concept of beauty standard as social construct.

[@amandab.recondwith8006]

Depilation wasn't always just to please men. In those days, lice were endemic, so getting rid of hair prevented cooties. And prostitutes definitely had to get rid of pubic hair for hygienic reasons as well as easy cleaning between customers.

[@velvetindigonight]

Excellent and entertaining. Thank you

[@lisabyrne9513]

Love that HH caters to the ladies. Eleanor Janega is fantastic!

[@laurenandrews511]

I just want to know what the public bathhouse was like for an average person! A pool? Individual tubs? How often were the tubs being cleaned? Was somebody just going back and forth with a bucket? How were they heating the water?

[@Neenerella333]

Many of the famous bath/bain/springs towns had geothermal springs. They could even divert just a small stream of super hot into cold baths, for the tepid ones.

[@PLuMUK54]

The Medieval Stews, as they were called, had large half-barrel tubs. They could be small enough for two, or large enough to hold group of 6 or more. There were public rooms with several tubs, and private rooms with one. This was not for modesty, but because Stews were often used as a place to carry out business or to network. People usually sat on a low stool, and there would be floating trays to hold food and drink. To protect the user from rough edges, towels were draped over the sides and into the water. To keep the heat in, there were often hung around with curtains or a tent like structure. Sometimes the larger Stews had large pools where people could swim. The use of chimneys was adopted quickly by the Stews, allowing rooms to be kept warm. Water was usually heated by fires. Smaller Stews would have large metal pots, think witches cauldrons, and water would be transferred by bucket. More elaborate Stews would use the same method of heating, but the water would be transferred by pipes. Taps were around at this time, think wine and beer barrels. Apparently, the water was changed regularly. If it were not, then it would be difficult to reheat it. If a tub was emptied, they might part fill it with cold water, then place heated metal in it to warm the water. I imagine this only happened with the smaller tubs. They were probably far more hygienic than the Roman style baths which still existed in a few places, and which were cleaned less often.

[@grannyannie2948]

​@@PLuMUK54I think you probably got what you paid for.

[@tamsin1969]

I am ecstatic that you've written your book, and loved watching this. In my personal time, I've studied gender inequality and social conditioning, for over 30 years, and you're so right that what is deemed sexy and appropriate for women, is a social construct, created by powerful men. It essentially keeps women in their place and grovelling for acceptance from the "men above them". I refuse to bow to societal pressure that tells me I am somehow wrong, or "less than", if I don't fit the current standard of what is beautiful. We need to get this message across loud and clear. These days it's more about capitalism and consumerism, ensuring women spend a fortune in order to look beautiful. I think there's a lot more men these days that are far more accepting of our less than perfect bodies than we realise. Mature, more spiritually focused men anyway. And who wants a shallow man who only cares if he can see through the gap in your thighs, or if you have big boobs. But this topic needs to be discussed so women will stop hating on themselves, for being who they naturally are. This is a subject that women have been so affected by, they have caused themselves physical harm and even death, in the pursuit of "beauty". Well I say FUK THAT!

[@matwetton]

Keep your simon schamas these 2 are the best historians in the world.

[@rileynewman-gatton8549]

I love watching these two. Huge congrats on the book release!

[@williambrock3534]

Love to see you ladies! Making history interesting and hilarious. No better way to start a day

[@spoon9908]

Thanks guys, insightful and thought provoking. Not many more historians I trust and have more confidence in for intelligently analysing and disseminating past primary sources, the likes of which that survive are from a narrow channel of society, that resonates so much to my identity, values and heritage. I've also never felt the urge stronger to jump into the screen, go buy a bottle of sav from the bar and pull up a stool and join in too. My tribe!

[@archivistallison]

I loved the book! It was a fascinating read.

[@StarTexaspets]

We love Eleanor!!! ✌✌

[@jennierich2986]

Kate and Eleanor in the same video? Brilliant! Am midway through Eleanor's book and am loving it so far. ❤

[@poppetangel]

What an interesting discussion. I could listen to much more of this.

[@arinasosnovskaya5298]

Why can't I like this video ten times? KZbin really needs to bring in a superlike. A deci-like, if you wish.

[@MeganOliveri]

This was fantastic 👏🏻

[@16voyeur]

Loved this! Thank you!

[@coffeefrog]

Amazing discussion! I’ll look for more of your talks together!

[@katieedwards5926]

I would chew off one of my own arms to go and have coffee and talk with these two women. They’re absolutely incredible.

[@653j521]

Would you still be hot, though? :)

[@kisa229]

This is so interesting and enjoyable, thank you!

[@sablewright8053]

These ladies are quite charming. Love this ❤

[@mistformsquirrel]

This is fantastic. Also you're both friggin hilarious!

[@ME-hr8dl]

So interesting… great presenters. More please 🙏

[@CalannEdwards-vu7xg]

Just ordered your book! Can’t wait to read!

[@timmaxwell2348]

Love the easy banter back and forth between these two! Well done! p.s. Regarding the casual attitude toward public bathing, I've heard that their is an old Japanese saying that "Nudity is often seen, but seldom looked at." Perhaps that also applied to medieval Europe.

[@grannyannie2948]

People used to swim naked in the sea, but men and women had separate beaches or swam at different times.

[@alissak.1512]

This is the best KZbin author talk ever

[@emmahepburn2969]

Shut the front door two of my favourite female historians !

[@ellaella2885]

I enjoy the comments learning lots from them as well . Nice ,smart community 🥰 you’re all so good as well

[@mild_meme]

If it makes you feel any better, I was born too late for my Henry VIII calves to be truly appreciated. These woulda been like the Lamborghini of legs back in the day.

[@amandapittar9398]

I too, have a well turned calf. The Victorian man would have panted for you. His heartbeat would have doubled. Take heart in the fact you will never be a geriatric with stick legs….

[@davidjames2910]

This is making history relevant - and amusing!

[@rwv3n]

Eleanor and Kate = dream team!

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

Even through the Victorian period women were portrayed with lips narrower than the width of their noses. The freakish, unnatural ideal took ages to die out. Poor Julia Roberts, with her beautiful wide mouth and big, perfect teeth, would be a monster to men in the past. Maybe men thought we wanted to kill and eat them?

[@beverlyellison3911]

I'm only 5 minutes into the video and I'm pre-ordering your book!

[@arbel7655]

I need NEED more of this conversation!!

[@lynnehill2571]

Perfect medieval man is in their 40s, so who is the writer of these descriptions? Men in their 40s

[@lindahouston5635]

Naturally! 😂😂😂

[@darkfireeyes7]

Bingo!

[@Freiya2011]

"Mental gymnastics" ... well, youcan't express it better!

[@sharonkaczorowski8690]

Well, after producing two very large babies, I have some of the beauty characteristics, especially the beeped ass. I was originally very thin…I now try to think of myself as a Titian dream girl! I am a social scientist who studied these things as part of a lifelong study of the human need to oppress “Others” and/or define what is or is not acceptable behavior. I hoped that with advanced age some of the pictures in my head would go away. No such luck,beep, beep.

[@blackbeardsdaughter2613]

Love these two ladies! They are soooooooo entertaining and well-spoken. Excellent presentation yet again!! Warm wishes from Northern California :)

[@lynnwalton814]

I love these two. Fascinating discussion

[@kimichan5]

“It’s not that I’m not hot. It’s that I was born hundred of years too late!” 😂

[@michaelellis956]

Please more! These 20 mins wend over in no time.

[@neko-chan6145]

Yay! I was waiting for another video with Eleanor.

[@reedl2353]

Good Lord, I would so love to buy the Doctors a beer and I could listen to them talk history for hours. I may pick up a copy of The Once and Future Sex, too. Clever, but not overbearing, title. I do appreciate a good King Arthur allusion! I mean, who doesn't? I'm not even British.

[@PeterBrown349]

I get to learn a lot about history through this video thankyou 🎉❤

[@junebrilly5302]

However, I love this conversation!! ❤

[@michaelablair4689]

5:31 in and there is already like 3 bleeps 😂😂😂 considering which podcast this is from that’s light 😂😂😂

[@JBT_On_YouTube]

I just downloaded this book, I’m looking forward to reading it! :)

[@user-rd8id1xk3t]

Bravo! I am so glad to know you have written this. Dismantle the Patriarchy! 😂

[@SD-os2ym]

I love these ladies together! ❤😂

[@hglundahl]

14:44 Q - is or isn't the Voynich manuscript a Trotula with unusual lettering and abbreviations?

[@johnsieverssr8288]

Thanks for your insights...❤😊

[@Thursdaysindecember]

Just bought your book on audio.

[@higginsj]

Funny and informative - really interesting topic

[@R.J._Lewis]

I love the discussion, but I have to say I was distracted by the different filters on the camera lenses and I checked a coiple of times to see if I had accidentally turned on the automatic brightness on my phone. The topic was super interesting though, along with the breadth of the discussion, from medieval beauty standards to cleanliness for everyday people.

[@stephaniesell5858]

I was also, and kept wiping my glasses, thinking I had somehow smudged them! lol

[@powerfrenzy]

Flexed my calves when I saw the title for this one... 😎

[@fimbulsummer]

I understand this reference 😂

[@joshbrailsford]

Great video...except the sound! I had my speaker on max volume and had to really pay attention to catch everything. This seems to be the case with a number of HH videos, which is such a shame.

[@Jay-ql4gp]

I loved this one! I laughed so hard I think I jump scared the cats.

[@sharlharmakhis280]

8:57 Aside from being dark-haired and dark-eyed, *I'm* medieval hot! This is weirdly validating, thanks Kate and Eleanor!