The Surprising Reasons Many Mormons Are Leaning Left

[@SkyFisher-rh1gs]

I can imagine hearing Lucifer argue against the disparity inherent in The Plan, telling us all how oppressed we would be if we accepted it.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

LDS still talk like Lucifer today. I hear it all the time: "isn't it wonderful everyone will go to a heaven?", "God loves all his children unconditionally." Tell that to the 3rd host of heaven...

[@stephtimms1776]

@@fightingfortruth9806 The 3rd host of heaven made their choices. So do we. It's all a matter of choice no matter what some members say. What matters is what the scriptures say.

[@TylerCrazyFace]

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!!!

[@kelleyturner6584]

​@@stephtimms1776 Yes, the scriptures, not these people!

[@MathStatsMe]

I can also imagine him telling us that we are oppressors if we accept The Plan.

[@saintguymoski364]

My mom left the Church and went left. It was over LGBTQ stuff. She was angered because she couldn’t stand the thought of her gay daughter going to a “lesser heaven”. She wants equality of outcome irregardless of divine law.

[@solisprime2669]

Funny enough gay can go to heaven so long as they act according it's like straights ain't going to heaven just cause hoedem is universal and God's against any type of it.

[@YakubibnEsau]

Yeah, she chose “love,” didn’t she? I hear this crap all the time.

[@adamcollier3065]

It is irresponsible to say that an LGBTQ person would go to a lesser heaven. God is the ultimate judge.

[@kristenskousen1317]

It's not even like her daughter HAS to go to a "lesser heaven" just because she's gay!

[@the_timinator77]

The Naked Communist by W. Clean Skousen helped me to truly understand this filth that has infected us like a cancer

[@Hpencer]

Ya and the church edited Benson's talk that recommended books like this. After he spoke it in conference, the church edited his talk before publication and took out every mention of the word communism and took out two lines where he told us to read books and one was a Skousen book, the other was None Dare Call It Conspiracy.

[@45s262]

@the_timinator77 for me it was the great and abominable church of the devil by H Verlan Anderson..

[@russellbateman3392]

He also wrote The Naked Capitalist. Evil is adept at hiding underneath every ideology.

[@goneballistic]

​@@Hpencer I have to wonder if I'm even in the real church anymore if they're hiding stuff like this. Church has been hijacked

[@MrRickb75645]

My friend , this is not what is happening. What is happening is that people are not doing as they are commanded. They are relying on outside forces and therefore settling for a lower law. We get what we ask for. We as church members on a whole have quit living a higher law. ​@@goneballistic

[@brannonburton5494]

Interesting that Lucifer’s counterfeit was developed around the same time as Joseph restored the church.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Excellent point. The Communist Manifesto came out shortly after Joseph Smith's death. And notice what the Lord says in D&C : "And even now, let him that goeth to the east teach them that shall be converted to flee to the west, and this in consequence of that which is coming on the earth, and of secret combinations." D&C 48:64

[@carlavegas887]

EXACTLY!

[@weightelk]

What was Lucifers counterfeit when Jesus made his original church?!

[@kelaarin]

@@weightelkRoman Catholicism.

[@weightelk]

​@@kelaarinRoman Catholicism as the counterfeit? I guess Lucifer thought the best way to undermine the "true church" was through centuries of theological debates, Gregorian chants, Latin Masses, elaborate cathedrals, and a whole lot of incense.

[@tdijon7]

Great conversation. You and Dan are some of of my favorite thinkers in the LDS space. Great to see you talk!

[@44hawk28]

Don't forget that Hitler himself was a socialist. That's why they called it the National Democratic Socialist Arbiter party . So these people who keep telling you that Hitler was a right-wing radical, they are wrong

[@elijahjohnson2672]

I personally tend to mostly agree but that is a bad argument. It's like saying North Korea is a democratic republic since the call themselves 'The Democratic Republic of Korea'.

[@jacobbuzan374]

National Socialism is just Nationalism. Which is right-wing.

[@elijahjohnson2672]

@@jacobbuzan374 Cuba is Nationalist, are they right wing? China is Nationalist, are they right wing?

[@fightingfortruth9806]

It's not the same thing. Hitler's Germany was wildly successful. Their economy grew massively during the 1930s while Capitalist America was going through the Great Depression. Their concept of socialism was very different than what we think of it today.

[@mikeflanders2173]

Wrong. You have lost your way brother.

[@carlavegas887]

This conversation is such a relief to hear. I’ve been learning about Marxism for the last few years. You two explain it quite succinctly. Thank you.

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad you found this helpful. I hope the book reaches enough people that we can call Marxism what it is whenever we see it.

[@07wrxtr1]

Marx was a deadbeat dad / end of story.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Heber J Grant went to Germany in 1937 and visited with government leaders about opening missions and also told the missionaries at the time there not to get involved politically. Church leaders at that time were cordial with German leadership. In contrast, they were VERY outspoken against Communism. They would know best who was the real worldwide threat at that time. It wasn't the Notsees.

[@HelamansArmy]

This needs to be discussed a lot more. The Church was extremely vocal with the warnings against communism and Marxism. Those who've embraced these ideas have forgotten who their brothers and sisters really are.

[@bustindustin959]

Truth & facts. The notsees were fighting against communism, and our official history of ww2 is a bunch of lies.

[@danellsworth9922]

The Nazis made professions of Christianity, and allowed for some religious freedom. The church has always had a really pragmatic view of that. If a system is evil (as the Nazi system was), then sometimes there is a possibility that the church can exercise influence in society to make the system better, or at least less evil. But ultimately, fascism and Marxism create the same output of tyranny and horror.

[@rando7th]

The difference between the 1940s Germany and communism is very small and mostly about which group is king of the hill. The conflict between Russia and Germany was mostly about who was in charge not fundamentals.

[@danellsworth9922]

@@rando7th This is correct.

[@shawndeanmackenzie]

When people leave the church and go left what they're really doing is trading one faith-centered belief system for another.

[@danellsworth9922]

This is correct. I cover that in chapter 7 of the book.

[@streamstriss]

I enjoyed this interview and I bought Dan's book. Thank you for shedding light on what's going on. Many more people need to hear this!

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad you found it helpful, and I hope you enjoy the book. Please leave a review if you have time!

[@ChelseaRobson]

The book, Wild Swans, changed everything about how I look at the world. I, also, highly recommend it.

[@livingmombirth4005]

So true. Great book

[@danellsworth9922]

Same here. Wild Swans impacted me very deeply. I quote from it in my book, and in other things I have written.

[@MrBoponpa]

One thing I didn't agree with in the episode was that capitalism was made out to be more than just free markets. I think that at the point where the pursuit of capital becomes one's highest goal and thus becomes sin (over the well-being of others) is not the sin of capitalism, but the sin of pride. Free markets in and of themselves aren't inherently bad, whereas a Marxist system inherently deprives its people of moral agency. Unchecked pride is the issue, not the economic system at play.

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

They talked about this in this video and agree with your conclusion.

[@nickkirkpatrick8288]

You can’t be LDS and be on the left. That’s a huge contradiction.

[@the_timinator77]

@@nickkirkpatrick8288 Sadly, it still happens.

[@kare7840]

I would love to hear Harris comment about the " Proclamation on the family."

[@Jeanie-nv7lo]

​@@kare7840- in what context?

[@hrv4908]

The left espouses immorality and sinful practices - like abortion. You cannot have leftist values and be LDS. The values are contradictory. If you are gay and LDS, you are not allowed to act on your sinful desires, to be in good standing.

[@jacobbuzan374]

Yes, you can. The church is neutral politically because there good elements on both sides.

[@mkprr]

What he explains at minute 24 is key to this issue. If we focus on past injustice we just can’t move forward. The Bible and other LDS does tell us to stand for justice. It also tells us to forgive 70 time 7 move forward though.

[@SadDadBadHad]

Brother, I love this podcast. You are very thoughtful and Christ centered while still discussing potentially difficult intellectual material. I will be adding this to my weekly rotation of podcasts. God bless. -Ryan at Fort Wainwright

[@Llamamagic2024]

Such a useful conversation…thank you

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad you found it useful, thanks for the feedback.

[@dane_with_swag]

It's pretty ironic how we in Sweden thought transitioning to a socialistic country would solve all of our problems only to quickly change it to the nordic model we have today when we realized it only made everything worse 😅

[@LDaw_96]

The college transformation you talk about at the end happed to my sons at BYU.

[@danellsworth9922]

I'm sad to hear it. I wrote the book so that it can be passed along to warn people.

[@jacobi2393]

What a breath of fresh air: people believe bad things because of appeals to the good within them. If you don't understand that, or refuse to understand that, how could you possibly hope to persuade them otherwise?

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad we were able to discuss the tangent of Maoism, external locus of control, and Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy. So much more to say on that.

[@carlavegas887]

I can’t even express how much I enjoyed this discussion. Do you agree with James Lindsay’s definition of Woke Right?

[@danellsworth9922]

@@carlavegas887 To a great degree I do. I discuss in my book a tendency for the extreme right and left to mimic each other. Ultimately, Marxism and fascism produce the same thing.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

You can't bring up Marxism without taking about Moses Hess and what he wrote. Also no mention of the Frankfurt school and WHO founded it, Max Horkheimer, Theodore Adorno. No mention of Magnus Hirschfeld, Arthur Kronfeld, and Friedrich Wertheim or Weimar Germany and WHAT books the Germans were burning. Just a ton of things that should be talked about and taught.

[@carlavegas887]

Don’t forget about Freire and his influence in our schools, especially today.

[@danellsworth9922]

The Frankfurt school is discussed in the book. I'm not super interested in Germany beyond Marxism.

[@NoelFallstrom]

Yes you can. I would never discourage anyone from reading all about the people you mentioned in relation to Marxism, but we also have to teach what Marxism is in less than 5 minutes. If you need 5+ hours to teach something, less than 0.5% of the population will ever learn it. I say the same thing about concentration camps under Hitler and gulags under Lenin/Stalin. It is great to read biographies and learn a deeper and more complete history, but we also need to be able to explain what they were in 5 minutes. I was content for most of my life to know only 1 fact about Christopher Columbus. In 1492 he sailed the ocean blue. As I have recently learned more, it has been rewarding, but not crucial. Definitely not something to prioritize over scripture study.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

We should be encouraging people to dig much deeper on what actually happened in WW2. WHO exactly were the people pushing Marxism? What did Germany go through before they voted for Hitler? Many of these questions never get answered, and that is on purpose.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

They always hide the translations of Hitler's speeches, they want you to believe he was a crazy madman and all the people just went crazy. Not true at all. Germany was ground zero for Marxism and the people had enough of it. They did not want to fall to Bolshevism as they had just watched Russia do.

[@dfm1plus6]

I think prosperity among the Saints is one of our biggest challenges. Based on last General Conference, Elder Bednar warned of the same. I know how vulnerable I can be at times

[@chrysanthemum8392]

Great discussion!

[@maryacaron635]

Our for father's have said the constitution and freedom will only realy work with a moral people. With freedom comes responsible.

[@danellsworth9922]

This is definitely true. Amorality invites tyranny, and vice versa. I devoted some of the book to a discussion of moral agency, because it's a core element of this.

[@ThomasFackrell]

What a great contribution to LDS conversation. Thanks Dan and Jacob

[@FTTLOMS]

You are wrong about Capitalism when you say “it is all about you. Getting rich, getting famous” etc. Capitalism requires compassion in order for one to find success. How so? Because in order to succeed at capitalism you need to meet the customers needs. That means you need to put yourself in their shoes. See things their way. Have compassion for what they are going through and their needs. Otherwise someone else will come along and do it better, faster and cheaper. Someone can be greedy, sure, but they will get beaten out by competition that is more cooperative and efficient. The only time greed pays off in “capitalism” is when there is corruption or regulation that may be legal but which favors big business and government together. And by that time you have already strayed into fascism which is what units way to socialism so it is no longer capitalism. In the USA, for example, we have an odd mix of capitalism, fascism, socialism and communism. And anything but the capitalism is bad. On a micro level, one can start a business and get very wealthy or fail and have to start over. But on a macro level, we have a federal reserve printing money and bailing out big institutions and making honest capitalists pay for it through inflation, we have corrupt government letting big business write their own regulation through lobbying and junkets and kickbacks and revolving door positions on board and in government. None of that comes close to capitalism which is just free exchange for mutual benefit.

[@danellsworth9922]

I agree to some extent, but capitalism allows for a number of very socially-harmful things that do not involve corruption or the government in any way.

[@FTTLOMS]

@@danellsworth9922 of course no system is perfect because the humans in any system are imperfect and corruptible. But I'd love to hear some examples that you have in mind as I am always open to learning more. Thank you.

[@danellsworth9922]

@@FTTLOMS For one example- companies like Black Rock buying up residential properties and pricing the middle class out of home ownership is perfectly legal, with no corruption. And it's very destructive.

[@alanchristensen9410]

Gale Sears, Letters in a Jade Dragon Box is a good book about Hong kong and how Communisms effects a young girls family whose uncle is LDS.

[@maryannstout7600]

Great comparison, the Tree of Life vs Marxism’s Dead Tree. It looks beautiful, but it’s dead, lifeless. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks.

[@jonathangatto]

Democrats are not Marxists

[@stephtimms1776]

@@jonathangatto We can see what they are doing and it is the works of Marxists.

[@wadewixom7029]

Some of us are learning left so we don’t fall off the cliff to the right. How about we all meet in the middle?

[@danellsworth9922]

I love it.

[@gregholden8812]

Nah! I'm good being on the far right!!!

[@danellsworth9922]

@@gregholden8812 I can respect that too.

[@johnbowen4442]

" Let thy eye be single "

[@RichardChappell1]

I think that suggests you don't understand left and right from a political standpoint.

[@stephtimms1776]

Prosperity doesn't destroy, but the pride chosen after it. Jesus gives us laws that bring freedom, prosperity, and an inheritance... as we learn in the Book of Mormon. It's not correct to blame those wonderful things for the pride the devil tempts people with once they get them.

[@danellsworth9922]

This is correct. It can create soil conditions for pride, but we ultimately have a choice as to what we plant.

[@hackerj23]

Question: If modern culture inculcates an external locus of control among minority people, shouldn’t we expect them to have higher rates of suicide and depression? I agree with the premise of this book but I’m having trouble reconciling the theory with the evidence that minority groups have lower rates of suicide and depression. Great discussion!

[@danellsworth9922]

"If modern culture inculcates an external locus of control among minority people, shouldn’t we expect them to have higher rates of suicide and depression?" Modern culture doesn't necessarily do that. Leftist ideology does, and there are a lot of studies that describe its effects on mental health.

[@briannicholls2628]

What a fantastic discussion

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad you found it helpful.

[@southwestrunner6384]

Congrats on having Brenden Fraser on your podcast!!!! That’s huge!

[@porchtime504]

Nice episode guys. Dan, any audiobook coming?

[@danellsworth9922]

Working on it. Those are harder to do than it seems...

[@JosephMichaelLima]

Remember, even the very elect can be deceived, if we are not careful. Careful means protect your mind by attending our meetings and attend The Temple. Keep a prayer on your heart continually. Remember who you are.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Watch Europa The Last Battle if you want the full truth on this topic. KZbin creators will only give you the watered down version.

[@Cindybin46]

Yes, it's an eye-opening documentary. I learned a lot.

[@TroyLeavitt]

This was a good episode.

[@bobicusrex]

The majority of people who leave the church leave due to abuse.

[@charleswefso2852]

I did not learn the surprising reasons many mormons are leaning left.

[@stephtimms1776]

7:45 He explains how the left believes government can distribute resources better than others. That is one reason left leaning members fall for it. He also explains the left's view that the world is divided into the oppressed vs oppressors. It takes some thought to connect the dots that feelings for our fellow man can be twisted and corrupted ino deceiving people to give all their power to a few in the name of charity.

[@stephtimms1776]

Also 38:33

[@utah20gflyer76]

The reason is because Satan has infiltrated the church (and other Christian churches ) through the idea that being tolerant of sin is a virtue. This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of Gods character and thinking of him only as being nice and loving, rather than a well rounded view of god which recognizes he is also often angry and intolerant. Ie destroying sodom and Gamora including all the women and children because he hates sin and can become very upset intolerant of sinners.

[@alexkilgrow725]

I agree with you. It was not as overt as advertised. But nevertheless, I learned some other really interesting things.

[@RamaRebellion]

In summary, the origins of it all are in feminist ideology. Read the book Occult Feminism by Rachel Wilson.

[@jandjhirst]

Like a tree... or like the heads of a hydra?

[@danellsworth9922]

Interesting.

[@TheJlleyba]

John Huntsman is one to mention you can live in capitalism his motto, “give until it hurts“. Though I am not well to do I manage specially now being on a fixed Social Security income, but we can still give even if it’s giving our time at the temple.

[@PahoransResponse]

Ultimate clickbate for me, Mormonism, Politics, controversial terms like critial race theory, queer theory, and opening the can of worms of satanism. But rewarding listen it tuns out... Here are my thoughts as I followed along. Had to write them down. And I'm posting as Dan seemed to have welcomed it at the end. A LOT to unpack... Here are my 2 cents (in US denomication). To me, the conversation seemed to be very much headed down into US/Utah-centric woview of the Gospel, what could be considered "cultural mormonism" anchored in the reigning political worldview, an anti-left worldview, perhaps. Talk of critical race theory (within echos of systemic racism in our society), queer theory (without the nuanced language the church uses), sort of seemed to give away where they were coming from, and references to Satanism (more nuanced/complex than appears) seemed to sort of make this more odd as I approached it (with an open mind). I was cautiously curious. In the conversation, there was a bit of comparing apples and oranges (in terms of political/religious concepts), and while I followed their logic, they were problematic as you could find examples from other political streams, to the same degree, to say one political extreme doesn’t fit the Gospel, and so the other does (not taking it to the extremes). Flip that and you find good everywhere! Of course, both (left/right perspectives) are fallen philosophical stances and don’t mix with the Gospel when taken too far, except of course: all Truth does. 
 However, as the conversation moved past the mid-point and towards the last third, it turned toward seeing the problems with materialistic Capitalism as well. This was a breath of fresh air to me, as my beef was more about picking a political worldview and equating it to the truths of the Gospel (US/Utah-centric of course in this case). 

 I see truth in all areas of human endeavor, despite our failings in implementing the Good and the True in human society. Our failings of course become truly monstrous when we empower tyrants in any form of social structures, and this is not without the pre-mortal echo in the LDS worldview or in the current 2024 election cycle. Both Marxism and its derivatives, and Capitalism and its forms, are part of our world's fallen philosophies. And as such, they have a lot of good intentions, truths and struggles to better society, brining in the worst of humanity along the way. The boogie man (more on him later) of course doing his best to corrupt and inject his special brew into everything. Some societies try to thread a middle ground, picking from both sides (Scandinavian countries for example). Painting one polical extreme as “bad” and the other as “good” has always seemed over-simplified to me, but then again, I grew up in that (privileged) part of the world.
 I guess the praise of Capitalism by prominent LDS voices, past and present, and the anti-Communist rhetoric, always raises the concern in my mind that these are actually voices of people who are relatively “well off” in their society, and live by relatively “wealthy” Western standards of living.
They grew up seeped in their culture. To use perhaps a Marxist term, they are voices from the “haves” not the “have-nots” in terms of socioeconomic status or from the developed world. Not to say they are wrong (things are more nuanced here), but they are not the voices of people who have “struggled” or who have tried to “harmonize” left/right politics more than "the Americans" have.

 So to some extent, aligning Capitalism with the Gospel seems very culturally invasive or insensitive in a World Church, especially to those who have truly suffered (or grown up with that perception) at the hands of the global market forces that drive issues of poverty and global inequality in the world. Or who simply aren’t Americans. Capitalism also has problems of course. It was very refreshing to hear the conversation turn to that point and bring in that nuance. Of course, a spiritual life, the Gospel itself, is the only antidote to the “fallen” politics. To me, taking ideological sides in a gospel context, in either struggle (political left/right), feels like missing the mark. I am still a bit wary when I hear talk of people being "indoctrinated in Marxism" being used (as in this conversation) without a similar reference to "indoctrinated in Capitalism". It is easy for people to see the "indoctrination" in Marxism because it is not part of the US/Utah-mormon identity, but harder to see it on the Capitalistic side as fish may not think of water that way. And the US "culture wars" are another undertone that echos. I would venture to say that both sides are attempting to better the world, and it is easy to judge one side and align it to the gospel. If we gave it space, the other side could do the same and both could perhaps live the very same Gospel. Both, of course, taken to the extremes in a fallen world (or non-spiritual way of living our lives) will produce suffering and unfairness, and are high roads away from Zion and toward another four-letter place Brigham Young would not have a problem naming. I heard that reference in the conversation, again, refreshing. The talk of "Satanists" (as a label) seemed a bit problemmatic to me, and ringing familiar bells of a more protestant worldview. But, as the conversation proceeded, it became more nuanced. However, defining satanism as self-centricism (as sort of was done), feels like picking a convenient vantage point, and mixing several currents, and historical trends that overload the term. It is problematic to interpret that from a less nuanced reading of that history. It has been used as a boogie-man term, as a more recent non-theistic term by its adherents, and then there is a more nuanced LDS-view. Not sure that there are actually any self-decribed theistic satanists to worry about, but those would be a 4th category. They probably missed their chance before we were all born. The conversation could then turn to self-centric capitalism, marxism, or any -ism, is of course, itself rooted in the basis of freedom, which is problematic. Any talk of freedom (or LDS-theologic agency) could be painted with that brush too. Again, are we going to say that any non-spiritual view is satanic? That would be going too far. But I'm not sure that's not the trick being played when we say that. The historical context here also very much includes the prosecution of people as being in league with satan. Being burned at the stake, even. It rings those bells. I would be very sympathetic to restoring dignity to those people, but some atheists have chosen to push back there and by that choice of term (Satanism) in the modern day they have thrown us off a bit. That is a trolling mechanism that they chose to use, and has been quite effective. Push back against fundamentalist christian authoritarianism by forming an atheisistic church named after the very boogie man himself. Brilliant trolling. But lets not take that too far in our theological context. We can even say they represent SOME truths of the Gospel. Namely, they are fighting for Agency and Freedom and against tyranny. Very pre-mortal echos here. I'm trying to be fair to their point of view here. Let's not take the bait though, when it comes to how we frame things in politics. To seemingly equate that to some form of LDS-nuanced view of satanism might be missing the mark. In that worldview, satanism might be more akin to the oppressors who burned the victims at the stake, than whatever they were accused of. So, I would say, tread carefully when using the term.

 By that reading, we could paint any -ism as Satanism. Even the self-centric Christian or Mormon would be labelled the same that way, if they cross the line. (Such as when disowning children who identify as LGBTQ+ or who vote for a tyrant-to-be). Seems to just show the problem of that term as used here, to say nothing more. Except of course, it's complicated. And, define our terms, perhaps. And, yes, trolling works. Overall, this was a much more nuanced conversation and more interesting/refreshing than I expected, even though the home-base of ideology seemed to be still a little biased by some of the usual (anti-Marxist) USA/Utah basis. Thanks. The Church is True!

[@kelaarin]

You’re looking for a middle ground, when ultimately there isn’t one.

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad you liked it. I hope you'll read the book.

[@PahoransResponse]

@@danellsworth9922 Will do!

[@eric-8998]

Thanks!

[@dmitrynikiforov1986]

Preach brothers ❤

[@SadDadBadHad]

Fantastic podcast, wonderful book.

[@danellsworth9922]

Glad you like the book. It was hard to write- so many challenging things to cover.

[@Ancientandoneofakind]

Let's be clear. Claiming traditional or orthodox doctrines are wrong, that by itself is not marxist. Some Catholics claim other Catholics are wrong. Some Protestants claim other Protestants are wrong. We (as Mormons) are not special in this regard. Not just because there are multiple Mormon sects, but because we are not special in that way. We are closer to the fulness of truth, but only in that we are special. Other Christian churches claim to have the fulness of the Gospel. Every Christian sect on earth claims to be closer to the fulness of truth than everyone else.

[@Crikey420]

The lds church has the priesthood. This makes all the difference. Without the priesthood we can only be hearers of the words of salvation. The priesthood enables us to perform the ordinances required for salvation. The restoration of the fullness of the gospel happened for a reason. For the immortality and eternal life of man. I would say the lds church is very special. It is literally His kingdom here on earth.

[@Ancientandoneofakind]

@@Crikey420 Yours: The lds church has the priesthood. Mine: Joseph Snith Jr had the permission of God, and after him came multiple Mormon sects. None of which presently resemble this... D&C 45 (lds) 67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion. Yours: Without the priesthood we can only be hearers of the words of salvation. Mine: Tell me where on earth the following is fulfilled... D&C 84 (lds) 33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. Yours: The restoration of the fulness of the Gospel happened for a reason. Mine: Yes, D&C 1 (lds) tells us why Joseph was chosen to receive the revelations he received. The temple ordinances are only symbolic. The power they have is only in the meaning we give them. Yours: I would say the lds church is very special. It is His very kingdom on earth. Mine: For obvious reasons presented here from the scriptures: that is false.

[@99blackbirds]

But Mormons???? we are baptized at 8 everyone passes.. since we made serious covenants we ALL go on a mission.. and with that it is requirement to go to the temple. ANd there we make serious covenants we do not know or understand until we get their on the spot. So do we really have a choice? Can we not do Better? teaching our kids

[@Crikey420]

Every single one of those options is that. An option. I nearly waited until i was 9 to be baptised. Why? Because i didnt know yet why i was doing it. Once i learnt enough about Jesus Christ i decided being baptised was what i wanted. If you dont understand something about the gospel its your responsibility to learn. Why would you go to the temple without learning a single thing about it? That sounds like a slothful servant. Nobody made me go on a mission. In fact i left it early. Nobody cared either. Nobody told me i was a failed mormon. Every one has a choice. You honestly just sound like an anti. You past comments disregarding our church leaders are not unnoticed. You need to figure out what you want. Dont stay in the church if all you see is problems. Thats how you ruin things for yourself

[@99blackbirds]

@@Crikey420well good for you. It sounds like you did everything right but did everyone else? Why do we sustain and oppose the leaders when you technically can’t loose the leaders. It will only get you into trouble. People have done it and they shut you down it goes no where. And if everyone or almost everyone sustains the leaders then that is scary! Our leaders have too much power and control over the members. It’s like Marxism! I can tell you don’t really understand that you do have a choice but the leaders and your family hold 95% most of your choice. So yeah you still have a choice but it’s easier to go along than it is to dispute or question!

[@99blackbirds]

But the plan with the LDS leaders was to make "the law of consecration" we can't ignore it???? And in a perfect world it would work! But are we secretly Marxist?

[@kennethmadsen]

You have focused on the left, but the right is just as precarious as the left. We shouldn’t be totally focused on choosing left or choosing right. What Jacob got right with this channel, gets lost when he presupposes that everyone that is against his political party is to the left of the high road and those against his candidate (Trump), has taken the low road. For the same goodness of purpose that the cultural revolution chose Maoism’s external locus of control, we can chose to obsess about the border. We can choose to obsess about the left. We can obsess about anyone opposed to Trump, which you can’t miss you’ve never watched his rallies. It is hard for Republican politicians unless they fully support their dear leader. So how could you tell if Trump were really dangerous? You could see it in the descriptions of the danger from his real former Republican opponents before they succumb and kiss his ring. You can see it in the great number of former staffers who will never vote for him. The vast majority of which believe he is too dangerous for this precious democracy. Trump doesn’t need to be a Hitler or a Mussolini to ruin this country. All he needs to do is remove all the checks and balances. Our founding fathers realized there must be opposition in all things in government but Trump’s judiciary branch and his legislative branch will need to fully support him or they will be Romneyed out of power. Look, we all saw it, “hang Mike Pence”, and instead of most of our members being disgusted, we were thinking they were saving the constitution as it was hanging by a thread. Because they didn’t hang him, we can say, that was no insurrection, that was just a congressional tour that got a little rowdy. No! Mike Pence couldn’t do that. Trump lost fair and square and Trump’s unending lawsuits failed to make their case even though the judges were often Republicans. No! Georgia couldn’t find that number of votes. No! That LDS leader in Arizona couldn’t do that. No! No! No! The intentional steeling of boxes of top secret information, and careless storage of it at his resort, and displaying it to people with no right to see it, doesn’t seem dangerous to anyone? Come on, if a person like me, intentionally stole a single classified file, it would be a very long prison sentence. But instead, we see other people’s unintentional use of classified information as evidence that everyone is doing it, and he must be authorized, since he said it, and we believe he wouldn’t lie about it. Come on, Jacob, it isn’t that the right is just the natural reaction to the Marxism. The right extremists are every bit as bad as the left extremists. Donald Trump is full of external locus of control, and he is building a coalition of power that surrenders to the executive branch as long as he’s the executive in charge. Has Fox News really convinced you that all is well with their guy? Mao is just one example of dictatorship. There are dictators of all types, left or right, but it never ends well. We need to stop and ask, Lord, is it I? Is it my candidate? Instead, we only say, I know, it is the other side that will betray this country. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

[@danellsworth9922]

Historian James Gregor says that Marxism and fascism are like the mythical Roman god Janus that has two faces, but it is the same creature. My book focused on Marxism, but I included critiques of the right as well.

[@stephaniewilliamson4611]

Every dictator you name dropped was socalist/marxists, to which Trump is neither of those. Kamala on the other hand.........🤔

[@chinchillax1483]

Jacob definitely never said everyone who opposes his political party or preferred candidate is to the left of the high road.

[@dmitrynikiforov1986]

I'm trying to grow out of my communist childhood, thank you for this video. Do you know that Putin met with Solzhenitsyn and he said to him that he is Putin's hero and that he will do everything in his power to not allow anything like Gulag while he is a president. What an irony 😢

[@danellsworth9922]

It is a sad irony.

[@quernalt]

Not trying to nit pick, but what's the reasoning behind using the term "Mormon"?

[@RB376-h7x]

KZbin algorithm most likely

[@Lomochenko]

Jacob and Jonah would make a great couple and possibly husband and wife.

[@07wrxtr1]

23:40 - Try being turned down for multiple jobs by companies because you're a white male - who does not have a beard, doesn't talk like a girl, and actually believes in real ACTUAL hard work. Then - yeah - you'll start to understand there's an ever DECREASING number of places you can find employment regardless of your skillset. Then - lets say you DO have your own small biz - what was targeted and shut down first during the cervesa sickness? So I get it - go make sunshine - but - you also have to be realistic - "love doesn't pay the bills"

[@RichardChappell1]

I think the error in the locus of control discussion, that leads to Jacob misunderstanding and applying to to the rght is hat it's not about how you can be happy, but about how much control a person feelss they have in theeir own behavior. As one text pits it: "People with a high internal locus of control perceive themselves as having much personal control over their behavior and are, therefore, more likely to take responsibility for their behavior. For example, I did well on the exams because I revised extremely hard. In contrast, a person with a high external locus of control perceives their behaviors as a result of external influences or luck - e.g., I did well on the test because it was easy." It's far more about accountability than it is about happiness. I'd suggest happiness follows as a condition of accountability. How it applies to the left and right, politically, is that the left feels like their behavior is controlled by those institutions and they have no responsibility - or accountability - for their behavior, and the resulting happiness, etc that goes along with it. The reason why they want to change the institutions is so they can effect change on the world. It's literally a goal of the control of all people so we can all be happe. That should sound very much like a certain person who presented the plan not chosen by God. On the right, the idea is theat each of us is in control of our behavior - regardless of the external circumstances. When the right sees a problem in the world, the approach is to push for systems to help people make better choices. Where Jacon get's the concept wrong with the woman on his mission, is conflating happiness with concern about the end result of poor choices and actions. The entire spectrum can honestly and legitimately have concerns about the condition of the world, and things going wrong. That has nothing to do with being happy or sad. It's how we react to those concerns. I can see the efforts to undermne this nation (US) by the left and be upset about their changes they are attempting, and the actions and choices they make. I am sad they are doing these things, and want to stop it. That doesn't make me unhappy - as my happiness comes from within - the choices I make - and not from outside. Captain Moroni did not give up his locus of control to outsiders just because he was fighting against those who would endanger them physically and spiritually. Jacob tries so hard not to be seen as political, or as left or right, but it's apparent he only has a cursory understanding of it - I suggest because of his desire not to be on a side, that it prevents him from real analysis of the positions.

[@danellsworth9922]

I'd suggest Jacob was correct in seeing the problem of locus of control on the right. There are many people on the right who mimic Marxism in how they approach politics and other things.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Each biblical author in the bible, God insured that their human words reflected His own holy character. God Himself is truth, and the scriptures are truth, His words. YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, Exodus 20:13 The sixth commandment forbids direct or indirect and intentional killings as a gravity sin. This includes supporting people who are all for killing babies inside the womb. You must follow the word of God when you vote, vote for the people who do not support this killing.

[@couragecoachsam]

Behind every Lenin is a Stalin

[@jacobbuzan374]

"Marxism has many flavors." Exactly, and not all flavors are bad.

[@aaronl4116]

Please tell me a flavor of Marxism is good if the base underlying of Marxism leaves out God and is pushing people to worship themselves? Can you show examples where these flavors of Marxism you say are not bad?

[@jacobbuzan374]

@@aaronl4116 A "flavor" of Marxism means not purely Marxist, meaning, you can have a system in place that adopts socio-economic ideals without banning religion. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Public Education, ect. are based in Marxist ideology. You're welcome.

[@taddbarnettpickleball3600]

@thoughtfulfaith2020 When referring to Church members, the terms “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” “Latter-day Saints,” “members of the Church of Jesus Christ” and “members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ” are preferred. We ask that the term “Mormons” and “LDS” not be used. I love ya Jacob, but why is it so hard for faithful members and content creators on KZbin to abide by this simple request from church leaders?

[@kelleyturner6584]

I am LDS and have been for nearly 60 years! I have not heard anywhere where we should not us this!!!!

[@kare7840]

​@kelleyturner6584 Then you missed a great conference talk by the prophet. Oct.2018 The correct name of the church.

[@stephaniewilliamson4611]

I am Ok with LDS, Latter Day Saint, or Mormon. Speak for yourself.

[@oshemer5066]

I will never understand why President Nelson made this his mantra, but never has addressed the transgender issue. Instead of saints fighting the real evil in the world they’re focusing in on superficial semantics.

[@stephtimms1776]

@@oshemer5066 Because faith in Jesus Christ is the thing that transforms people. The prophet was making it clearer that we do belive in and point to him as the Savior of the world, who can and does help us with all things like that.

[@catotheyounger2689]

Marxism like any philosophy has its flaws. However, I have come to find the idea that Marx was some kind of anti-Christ absurd. Like it or not, Marxism and the United Order have some overlap. And while Marx did view the world through the lens of class, it isn't the same as today's snowflake victim mentality. Marx actually liked America and Marxists fought in the Union army. Also, Marx condemned child labor decades before any nation took actions to stop it.

[@danellsworth9922]

I addressed those claims in the book.

[@chinchillax1483]

They discussed this, the reason it is kind of “anti-Christ” is because it is fundamentally stripping away agency. Zion is all about having all things in common, but only of our free will. If it is forced, that is the opposite of Christ’s plan, or “anti-Christ” you could say. That’s what I’m thinking anyway.

[@phazbinder1385]

I liked the idea of not rehearsing grievances. that's definitely something I needed to hear. though Lets not be so naive as to ignore the compelling reasons for the church to avoid dwelling on its history. Its hard to talk about the persecution of the saints without discovering some of the less faith promoting reasons for that persecution. There were some inspiring things in this discussion, but they were overshadowed by some significant weaknesses. It really fell apart when you turned to the genetic argument about Marx by claiming that he is satanic. Why does the "right" tend to resort to this sort of tactic? it is a lazy way to convince simple minds to fear "ex-Mormons", or :socialists", or gays, or whatever else we are supposed to be afraid of this week. There is a better way to understand ideas than simply dividing the world into demons and saints. Also, are you sure you want to concede the point that Marxism is a religion? You open yourself up to arguments that the vast majority of war, and mistreatment of other humans in this world is caused by religion. You kind of conceded the last remaining defense in that argument. I'm guessing you don't allow that premise to carry into other arguments when it becomes inconvenient. , Another bad habit of the "Right". Your arguments only work in a bubble. How much do you want to lean on president Benson? He was often rebuked by church leaders for his fanaticism and the church has clearly separated itself ideologically from him short of outright repudiation.(excepting the one instance that Hugh B. Brown was let off his leash at a BYU devotional) The church regularly maintains the line that good can be found in both parties and Bensonian fanaticism has been absent from the pulpit for decades. Still the same John Birch fear mongering lives on in podcasts like yours convincing people that the slippery slope to destruction lies around every corner if the government so much as gives a kid a sandwich.

[@danellsworth9922]

That's a lot of...rehearsing grievances.

[@phazbinder1385]

That’s funny. You probably should’ve thought that out before you commented.

[@alexabplanalp4455]

I don't know of a single left-leaning mormon.

[@AJP.OT7]

I do but I think a large part is they listen to certain news place that say they are unbiased and think it is unbiased….

[@kelleyturner6584]

Here, let me introduce myself. I'm a 66 year old, who was a Republican until Trump. There are many of us and we live the gospel, follow the covenant path, hold Temple recommends hold callings etc. There are a lot of us who refuse to support the evilness that is MAGA!

[@leekit6099]

​@@AJP.OT7Slowly we have been cocooned into a comfy philosophy of safety. Becoming willing to be controlled. But without trade and commerce a country becomes financially broken becoming desperate for some man leadership, anywhere out there, to fix our problems.

[@Cindybin46]

@@kelleyturner6584 We need Trump back more than ever. A vote for Harris means a vote for even more antiwhit ism.

[@kristinrichmond8185]

@@kelleyturner6584I have a genuine question. Is “the evilness that is MAGA” more evil than the policies Democrat party? And what do you mean by evil of MAGA? Please , I’m trying to understand your point of view.

[@russellbateman3392]

One can paint names on it if one wishes, but that hides the truth. What it really comes down to is do you think you're going to feel blameless when you've spent your life with your hand in your fellow's pocket, in his brain, in his family, in his soul when the Master of the Universe ejected Lucifer for proposing to force it all to work out? We feel superior--all democratic and Constitutional when--just because we can--we place men and women in seats of legislature, on judicial benches and in positions of executive authority to send armed officers out to pick other people's pockets for "good reasons" or force them to believe our way--the right way. (Expletive deleted.) Who cares what it's called? In fact, giving it a name only to come to fisticuffs over it just obfuscates the iniquity. Know This, That Every Soul Is Free... ...In nameless ways be good and kind, but never force the human mind!

[@45s262]

maga

[@paulhallett1452]

As a Catholic, politically conservative attorney who has worked at the highest levels of the US govt - who understands and therefor despises Marxism - I must say: this is incredibly on-brand for Mormonism. I increasingly hear Mormons deciding to ineptly dabble in Patristics and Thomism and so much that is serious - but from the wholly unserious LDS pedigree of anti-intellectual sophistry. This dude LITERALLY doesn’t even understand what Marx means by superstructure. Why not at least get your fellow atheist materialist right? He simply has not seriously read Marx nor Marxism. I get it - Mormon “thought”-leaders have to speak in terms the usefuls can grapple with. However humans are not designed by the God who defies the limits Jailbait Joe sought to impose before he was eliminated. The Christian God is no subject of Eternal Law. He IS the Law, It’s Source and Consequence.

[@stephtimms1776]

The "usefuls"? I've heart the term useful idots used by Hillary.... is that what you mean? God is God because he obeys eternal laws and principles, and perfect self mastery. Obedience of the law gives us freedom and brings eternal blessings as we perfect it.

[@sdfotodude]

Yet you consecrated your time, talents, money, integrity, and agency to the Corporation of the President.

[@stephtimms1776]

Willingly..,. voluntarily. Big difference between that and being tricked and or forced.

[@sdfotodude]

@@stephtimms1776 at what age did you do it, and with the informed consent of what was involved?

[@danellsworth9922]

Nobody makes the commitments of their youth with that idea of "informed consent." And people who make good commitments on limited information tend to end up much better off than people who cannot make commitments due to an accusatory obsessive personality or some kind of scrupulosity. I consecrate to Christ, and His ordained servants have wisely developed a corporate structure that enables stability for our people.

[@sdfotodude]

@@danellsworth9922 it is child abuse unless they are "of age" 18 sounds reasonable. Can you legally sign a contract before age 18?

[@danellsworth9922]

@@sdfotodude Do kids sign contracts to go to public schools or get vaccines or be raised in atheistic nihilism?

[@jonathangatto]

I am left leaning and so was Joseph and Hugh B Brown. Being a Democrat does not make you a marxist!

[@kelleyturner6584]

Thank you!!!! These guys are just "pot stirrers"!

[@kekag]

If you learned what the average "left leaning" person 2 centuries ago believed, you would be calling them far-right fascists.

[@annalloyd2180]

You can be a democrat and still have very much family values which is why many life democrats are now voting for Trump as RFK is on his team and always been more democratic. Now if you are voting for Kamala with her ideologies then you do fall under Marxism thinking.

[@StandforTruth712]

So are you in favor of "gender affirming care" and "abortion" which are both forms of child sacrifice and murder? Kids emmass today, particularly girls who are more prone than boys to be caught up in a social contagion, are being groomed into LGBT+ gender ideaolgy on social media, public schools, universities and in some cases by parents, particularly left leaning narcissistic mothers. Please don't cite pro choice as agency and the rare exceptions of rape, incest and life of the mother as justification for supporting the diabolic henious practice of ripping children apart in the womb. At the time of conception that embryo has its own unique DNA and potential separate from the mother's. Like all parents we have a moral obligation to nuture and care for our children no matter the inconvenience, level of stress and financial cost. If you vote Democrat, you are supporting both gender affirming care and abortion like it or not. Abortion is the reason why I left the Democrats in my early 20's. We must protect the most vulnerable in our society who are born and unborn children.

[@dougbrown8331]

The Democratic Party is openly promoting Marxist ideology, if you vote for that party you are accepting that Marxist ideology. You can say being left leaning doesn’t make you a Marxist but it’s just a lie! If you vote for that party you are accepting there Marxist ideas and policies.

[@peterblair4448]

Fanatic interview

[@henryponnefz1419]

BECAUSE THE RIGHT IS SO MEAN TO EVERYONE.

[@kickstnd]

Because the right believe one should learn to fish for them selves, rather than be given free fish. Which really isn't free!!!

[@jwright-n1v]

No they're not. Stop gas lighting.

[@stephtimms1776]

Is tricking children into sterilization nice to you? How about facillitating the trafficking of them? Or making things so expensive their parents cannot afford them? Is that nice to you? How about sending them off to foriegn wars?

[@kickstnd]

@@jwright-n1v hey j, I have some Wrights in my family who were pioneers and opened the west of America to civilization. They learned to work hard without handouts. Broke the land, feed their families with their own hands. Gaslighting......schitt. oh and they were all right-wing. Lol so mean!! Quit using words you no nothing about.

[@FaafetaiMotufau]

Your story are true

[@brycehesterman6975]

The book sounds great. However, we need to keep in mind that, like Karl Marx, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was an unfaithful womanizer and that must have in some way degraded his teachings.

[@danellsworth9922]

Before or after his conversion in the gulag?

[@Mr1rasmussen]

Terrible video content. This is a better topic for you - "The Surprising Reasons few Mormons are leaning left."

[@stephaniewilliamson4611]

Few? Really?

[@AlbertJLouie]

MORMONS, NO RESTORATION IS NEEDED. Because Jesus already has established His Church. MATTHEW 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it..." ALSO JUDE 3 "While I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints..." Jesus already has established His Church and built it on a rock so the gates of Hell shall not prevail against. Also the faith was ONCE and for all already delivered to the saints. No mention of any Mormon restoration in the past, present, or future.

[@kelleyturner6584]

Follow the Prophet, not these clowns!

[@stephtimms1776]

How are they not following the prophet. Yes, they are!

[@KevinLudovic]

I do follow the prophet. They have always said vote your conscious. I have prayed and find there is a clear evil in this political race that is espousing a culture of death and slavery and it is not the MAGA right.

[@best1213best]

Communism isn't following the prophet. Kamala is communism, take a hard look at her policies and you'll see communism and all the evils that come with it.

[@kelleyturner6584]

​@@stephtimms1776 No they are not following the Prophet. The church does not tell us who we should vote for! The Presiding Bishop of the church is a Socialist. So is he a bad, mentally ill person? No!

[@shawneddy2093]

I agree, follow the prophet. See “Peace Makers Needed” I think Dan Ellsworth is a great example of a peacemaker. Discussing his opinions with sympathy and evidence WITHOUT name calling.

[@tdijon7]

Great conversation. You and Dan are some of of my favorite thinkers in the LDS space. Great to see you talk!