The Sympathetic Strawman - How Marvel Accidentally Created One of the Best MCU Characters [reupload]

[@therealloomar]

To those uninformed, my account got hacked recently Some stuff was alright. Some stuff was changed and some stuff was missing This is a reupload. There was a few other videos that have been re-uploaded and some that I'm not going to bother with because they're so old/poor editing But yeah, this video was one of them. Which was a shame because it was the one that got the most views pretty much every week Edit - The algorithm for my videos is absolutely fucked so anyone sharing it to friends/groups/discord would be much appreciated

[@MarvinPowell1]

Sorry to hear that. A Russian hacker got my account in September 2022 and used it as a crypto scam account. I talked with Google on Twitter to get my Gmail account back, but during this time, KZbin terminated my channel because it was a scam, but after gaining access to my account, refused to restore my channel and refused to tell me why. I still hate KZbin for this and my original game review channel with 3,000+ subscribers and 900+ videos is still lost forever.

[@jasperhorne]

Really sorry that this happened to you. Hope your views will escalate from here, this was definitely my favourite video from you.

[@CollegeDroputPowerpoints]

But Loomar CrYpTo Is ThE fUtUtRe they'll obviously say

[@_Rulely_]

I looked for this video recently, thank you for reuploading

[@nananamamana3591]

It's time for lightning to strike twice 🗿

[@Spankee99]

Pretty wild that Falcon has experience working with vets suffering from PTSD and acts like a total asshole towardsWalker.

[@BalrogUdun]

Almost like the writers completely forgot who the character was and what made him like able

[@untunedguitar45]

They most likely also supported the statues going down if they weren’t in the crowds committing them

[@jacliffh9221]

Imagine if the writers and creators of a show claiming to be like TWS actually managed to watch that movie

[@johnbai4715]

Racism

[@boundary2580]

@@untunedguitar45what statues?

[@getthegoons]

The fact the US Government scapegoats him for doing exactly what hes supposed to only helps him be even more sympathetic.

[@chordalharmony]

Certified Government moment

[@404_nowheresnotfound3]

And people say Marvel movies are unrealistic.

[@LCaddyStudios]

That’s the whole point of the show, there’s no moral black and white, it’s all grey area, because only Steve Rodgers was capable of seeing the black and white. That’s why people support the side characters more than the main characters, I mean half the time I’m supporting Zemo

[@getthegoons]

@@LCaddyStudios you're giving the show way too much credit

[@LCaddyStudios]

@@getthegoons not really, the entire point of the show is to convey messages, there are a lot of details in it which do refer to real life topics, Acab/Racial Discrimination is blatantly obvious, Isaiah Bradley refers to secret testing performed on African Americans by the US/CIA, the Flagsmashers are a combination of Black Lives Matter and Terrorists in Gaza. Now the new Captain America starring Sam will be focused directly on US politics. Comics (and their TV/Film counterparts) have always referred to political movements and activists, government overreach, government corruption and more. So it’s not giving it more credit, it’s giving the show the credit it deserves.

[@ianyoder2537]

One of the things that bugs me is no one seems to care about Walker's mental condition from both a narrative and in universe perspective despite the fact they gave Bucky a whole sub plot about therapy. It could have been a good narrative parallel about what happens if you neglect your own mental health or what happens if no one notices the signs.

[@killer-ox4rp]

i remember even Bucky therapy ark was ass

[@ianyoder2537]

@@killer-ox4rp God, the eye contact bit was cringey as hell.

[@IvyInception]

Bucky’s therapy was terrible too. What were the writers thinking, honestly? And you’re right. You should have written the show 😂🤦🏼‍♀️

[@finalfantasy50]

and falcon has no reason to be upset that lamarr is called walkers wingman when he had a wingman of his own when he was in the armed forces that sadly was killed and falcon was so upset that he was in therapy over it these writers had no fucking respect for the source material

[@Gamfluent]

If Walker was in the dc universe that would work so much better since they’d atleats know how to deal with a hero whose gone rogue

[@randomusername3873]

John walker: saves sam's life and gets bucky out of prison Sam and Bucky: hate this guy lmaoo

[@Phat_trick910]

When did John Walker get Bucky out of prison?

[@Akkatlah]

​@@Phat_trick910never. He is just babbling

[@aaronwishard7093]

​@@AkkatlahDid you not watch the video at all? It's at 4:00, because Bucky missed his therapy sessions, he was about to go to jail!

[@Akkatlah]

@@aaronwishard7093 for a few hours until his terapist showed up.

[@alexanderinoa7850]

Bro really said “he got me outta prison, fuck that guy” lmao

[@grumbolaya]

Mfw ironman is a fascist because when he used the hulk smasher, Hulk was unarmed.

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

I can't believe Thor tried to murder Thanos while he was unarmed! Clearly Thanos is the victim here!!!

[@apache8795]

​@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandleThor did murder Thanos while he was unarmed, and injured at that. What a monster that Thor is

[@UltraGalaxyify]

And then Thor had the temerity, the TEMERITY, to feel bad about failing to kill Thanos the first time around.

[@andyknolls8735]

@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle Thanos dindunuffin, he was a good boy.

[@codykriewald7305]

Yooo did you watch the follow up video? He literally uses this argument about Hulk being unarmed. Doesn't mention the comment directly, but that's how you know you made a good one.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

"Wahhh, the EVIL Captain America killed the defenseless mass murderer!!"

[@KingBrooks87]

that was a super soldier so not even defenseless

[@icehoof]

Everything after it makes sense from a political standpoint, he killed someone in front of a crowd, then the military threw him under the bus because he wasn't popular (very common) If only the MCU ever cared about politics making sense

[@TheUncivilizedNation]

A Super Soldier is never defenseless

[@AdeptKing]

Yeah the guy literally threw a large piece of concrete at him right before he was at Walker's mercy and he only tried to surrender because he was at his mercy.

[@killerhellhound]

@@AdeptKing He didnt surrender he was getting up to continue the fight then got pinned down the second that he didnt have a boot on his throat he would get back into the fight

[@BigBroTejano]

Walker: *repeatedly tries to be friendly to two guys who show him nothing but distain for no reason, behaves reasonably in very hectic situations, kills a terrorist who just took part in murdering his friend* Marvel: “don’t you just hate this guy???” Audience: “… can Walker be Captain America from now on?”

[@omnipresentl1316]

I was thinking the same thing

[@chickenbacon5197]

@@omnipresentl1316 Which is funny because Walker was to his friend what Capt. America was to Bucky.

[@omnipresentl1316]

@@chickenbacon5197 it all is so perfectly hypocritical that I would almost believe it was written intentionally in the most hypocritical way possible but given some of these writers, that would be giving them too much credit.

[@Oropher420]

"Omg, Walker killed a man! Captain America never kills!" WW2 Captain America:

[@AdeptKing]

@@Oropher420 Forgetting all the aliens they took out in Avengers too.

[@thefanwithoutaface8105]

I hated this show so much because it makes Bucky and Sam come across as petty jerks angry at John simply because he's taken the mantle of Captain America. This is especially bad for Sam as in Winter Soldier he worked as the leader of Support groups of Veterans, thus should understand better than anyone what Walker is going through with his PTSD and when Lamar dies, yet instead treats him like shit because he believes he deserves the shield and shows more compassion for a violent unhinged, murderous terrorist just cause she's younger than the literal War Hero and soldier whose shown he is commpassionate and wants to help. This show ruined Bucky and Sam.

[@justinbowers2749]

Also didn’t Sam say in the show that he didn’t want the shield? But the second John gets it, he suddenly acts like he should’ve gotten the shield. Bucky should’ve been the one, but no we have to have a black Captain America for Modern Audiences

[@norrecvizharan1177]

I suppose the one semi-accurate part is that there’s a trend with well-established squads of soldiers having a hard time accepting new faces, probably even more so if said face is supposed to take up the whole symbol and title of their lost friend, but it still goes to show how stupidly stubborn Sam and Bucky were to him, which is quite sad to see.

[@caboose3191]

​@@justinbowers2749 The problem isn't the black captain America... What you wrote is a bit concerning. In the comics there have been many people with captain moniker. This version is just poorly written.

[@onglanh5329]

​@@caboose3191When they first introduced Sam as Captain America in the comic i was fine with it, i saw it mostly like Nightwing being Batman for a time. But now they made him Captain America permanently and i fail to see a point in that, he was Falcon, he was the first Black American Superhero, he had his own identity. But now he is just a less successful version of Captain America

[@killcat1971]

Well yes, the progressive view point is "White man bad" "establishment bad", so the terrorists are portrayed as sympathetic characters, Flacon deserves the mantle because it's "right" etc. The problem is this only works if you have a progressive mindset, otherwise it all falls apart.

[@LukasJampen]

All I see about why he is a bad guy is that he killed a person after they killed his friend. As if Cap never hit people with his shield so hard they died.

[@AJadedLizard]

I mean, if I remember right he threw a pilot into a fan blade in TFA.

[@quantumvideoscz2052]

@@AJadedLizard To be fair, the pilot was literally a Nazi. At wartime. Trying to fly a bomb to its destination to blow up whichever city that one was for. But I get your point.

[@AlmightySmorg]

He also dragged that one guy on his bike in Age of Ultron

[@cabnbeeschurgr6440]

There are multiple times where cap's shield should have absolutely caused a bloody mess of a person prior to this, they just want to keep the pg-13 ratings lol

[@Pherim_]

You are forgeting this is Modern Marvel and he is White. Marvel see this as reason enough

[@memevondank1197]

This show makes walker feel like the last sane man on Earth hes the only one constistantly making reasonable choices and even the show concedes that several of his plans wouldve ended the conflict but hes treated like a moron the whole time

[@SandyCheeks1896]

You’re telling me Disney wrote a script that makes a reasonable moral man who appears to be the last sane man on earth out to be a bad guy?

[@nigachu8249]

​@volt42reDisney's political doublespeak backfired.

[@Gamfluent]

They wanted to make him a racist white devil yet did everything in their power to make him the most sane man

[@Chex_Mex]

​@@nigachu8249Whats the political message they were trying to tell with this story? Didn't watch the show so just basing it off the plot summary the video gave

[@Akkatlah]

He looks sane to You because he is white. If he was a Black guy like Sam You would have a different opinión.

[@aw55907]

Sam and Bucky were constantly assholes towards John, constantly working against him and were not willing to work together. Despite this John still blames himself. THAT WHY HES THE GOAT!

[@Jackalmercenary-t7y]

And not to mention that Sam of all people supports the TERRORISTS yes Sam the “next Captain America” supports terrorists wtf Sam

[@AlmightySmorg]

Never forget Walker had THREE medals of honor which is an absolutely incredible feat...which makes me think the writers didn't do much research on how amazing that makes him

[@aw55907]

@@AlmightySmorg Like I said. GOATED!

[@apache8795]

Seriously. John even says that he's not trying to replace Steve and he just wants to do the best he can. And Sam and Bucky still treat him like jerks for no reason

[@Gamfluent]

And it’s all Sam’s fault he even lost the shield

[@quasideificalpaca]

Literally what happens when villains write villains lmfao

[@randomcenturion7264]

Aye. When you get evil people to try and make a villain, their idea of "Villainy" starts looking pretty noble.

[@quasideificalpaca]

​@@randomcenturion7264 Captain america kills dozens for standing in his way: John Walker kills a terrorist that didn't stop until given literally no alternative: (Surprised Pikachu face)

[@YaboitheCadian]

It really is. Because the writers blatant racism helped make a great hero

[@shawerful5209]

John walker is not a villain tho. The fandom considers him one but he is not actually a villain

[@tabkg5802]

​@@shawerful5209that's the point of the comment. Villains writing villains refers to have writers of the show *tried* to write a "villain", but failed miserably since the actual "villains" here are them

[@AlmightySmorg]

I hate how vilified Walker gets by Falcon and Bucky after killing a SUPER SOLDIER terrorist who helped murder his best friend. They treat him like a unhinged psycho when one of the first things he asks them afterwards was pretty much "are you two alright or need any medical attention". Not only that but they act like he sullied the shield by getting blood on it, acting like Steve never killed anyone before despite the fact he was a soldier in one of the most horrific Wars of our time which is something Bucky should absolutely understand.

[@Pherim_]

Its Modern Marvel, and he is White. This is reasoning enough for Disney

[@apache8795]

Not only should Bucky understand being a WW2 vet but he's got half a century of blood on his hands as the Winter Soldier. John was temporarily not in his right mind because he took the serum, just like Bucky was when he was under mind control. But John killed a terrorist and Bucky killed innocents. But John is the vilified one??

[@CadeSkywalkerEU]

@@Pherim_The white card can’t really work here, Bucky is also white and his character was ruined despite being on the “good side”. Of course, this example is more of the MCU’s forced politics and bad writing than John Walker being a white guy.

[@brandoncarnes]

​@0neiros. Bucky has accepted he is subordinate to Sam so he's the right kind of white. John is only accepted when he also submits to sam

[@CadeSkywalkerEU]

@@brandoncarnes Anyone who isn’t kissing up to the MC (and writers) is evil, its clear they’re just pushing a message of their ideology for this show, since the “good guys” are the flag smashers, and they’re anarchists

[@Lechuga1815]

"OMG, Walker killed a known terrorist" - Marvel Me: "2:45, do you think Steve is shooting bean bags here?"

[@anonymousobserver6508]

clearly a marshmellow gun

[@Ryzard]

Watched some special forces people from various countries break down Walker's actions, and many determined he was not only correct, but TOO hesitant - especially considering a supersoldier is inherently ALWAYS ARMED (as cap has shown) and clearly deadly, and that would have been briefed and decided by superiors before engaging.

[@fortcastellan1730]

Sympathetic Strawman is such a clunky term. Lets just stick with John Walker. The 'John Walker' can serve as the inverse of the 'Mary Sue.' While a Mary Sue is a character the author desperately wants the audience to love, but who is instead hated and resented for the various forms of hackneyed/failed storytelling the author used to make him/her the bestest ever, the John Walker is a character the author desperately wants the author to hate, but who is instead loved or supported because of the various forms of hackneyed/failed storytelling the author used to make him/her the worstest ever...

[@robrick9361]

Rorschach would be better since he's more widely known.

[@redline841]

A John Cena/Big Dog Roman vs Eddie Guerrero types

[@extraterrestrialhorse9722]

​@@redline841❤❤❤

[@experimentalchannel2259]

New Guy was one

[@ltb1345]

@@experimentalchannel2259 The New Guy Effect.

[@EthalaRide]

Also, I believe it was was established that taking the serum could have temporary side effects like Roid Rage, so there is a very real argument that Walker wasn't in his right mind when he killed that dude since the serum was freshly administered and he was just in a huge life or death fight where his best friend died in front of him. I don't think your blood can be more UP than that. It was FAR from a corrupt cold blooded execution, or the callus act of incompetent arrogant hot-headed the show tried to frame it. He's been SO CAUSTIOUS for his entire screen time, showing humility, respect, political decorum, military decisiveness, and willingness to take sacrifice himself to bear greater responsibility. He took it on, even though he didn't want it. *_That's what SAM should have done. What is Sam's jumping on the grenade moment? Because he doesn't give up ANYTHING to take on the shield. He doesn't sacrifice his position on not taking the serum, he doesn't sacrifice his status, security, family, position, ANYTHING! He gets it all. His family's finances are saved, he gets the shield, he doesn't need the serum, he doesn't get in trouble with Wakanda, he's better friends with bucky, What the hell did he sacrifice? Steve lost EVERYTHING!!! E V E R Y T H I N G personal to him to save the world over and over again. "The price of freedom is high, it always has been, but it's a price I'm willing to pay. I might be the only one, but I'm willing to bet I'm not"?_* Sacrifice, hope, liberty, courage, all things Steve as Captain America stood for. Walker at least TRIED, while Sam said "nah, miss me with that shit."

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

Well you see, cops are mean to Sam sometimes, and he can't take a loan because he got dusted away

[@keenanthompson3133]

All Sam's appearances from CA2, "I do what he does, just slower", things to that end. Could've been done _better_ in the show, agreed- but he does sacrifice things throughout his screen time in the movies.

[@FreakTesticals]

Sam and Bucky really didn’t give a shit about Lamar, so when he died they really didn’t care that Walker was angry, what a great hero Sam is…

[@hisho2255]

Based

[@sinistralhydra]

This was my interpretation of the scene too. John watches Lamar die and takes the serum in a moment of desparation and anger, causing him to roid out.

[@RiceCubeTech]

What I hate the most is they act like cap was a Saint. He wasn’t he was a soldier. And he killed when he had to. He never relished in it. He doesn’t like it, but he understands it’s necessary for the greater good. He can lift the hammer. Part of the hammer determining if you’re worthy or not, is if you would kill if the situation demanded it. Not that you’re a murderer, but to make the decision if it’s the best decision. He literally kills. All the time. Faulting walker for killing a super soldier terrorist who could literally rip your head off if he wanted to is asinine.

[@freshlyfishedbread5567]

Captain America never killed a surrendering enemy

[@seinnenn]

@@freshlyfishedbread5567 he fucking threw a guy out of a flying shield heli carrier rather than just knocking him out or just killing him instantly. Love captain america but the dude wasn't exactly clean in high stress situations

[@berserkasaurusrex4233]

@@freshlyfishedbread5567 Thor beheaded a guy who was unarmed (literally) and totally at the Avengers's mercy. And he did it in the middle of the guy telling his daughter he loved her. Cap was right there, and didn't care.

[@dreamwanderer5791]

The villain has killed countless, including those the hero cares about, puts the lives of those who disagree with him as necessary costs to reach their goal of an idealized world, and is left completely helpless, unable to fight back. The hero just lost someone they care deeply for, failed to protect and do his honor-bound duty, and finally has a one-up on someone they were arguably even with before, and decides to kill the helpless person in a moment of blind anger to fuel revenge. This applies as much to Thor as it does to John Walker. If we're supposed to hate John Walker for what he did, then hold Thor equally accountable for what he did to OG Thanos. Or, say that both were justified for what they did. Just because Falcon doesn't want us to call the Flag Smashers terrorists that doesn't mean that they're blame-free.

[@zoobatzjr371]

Falcon: They aren't terrorists. Senator: With all due respect they meet the exact definition.

[@controversialopinion5722]

@@zoobatzjr371 This is sadly something that real people do, every single time I see a breadtuber talk about something like 9/11, people in the audience will talk about how they don't like the word terrorist because it gets thrown around a lot, effectively saying they don't agree with groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS being labelled as terrorist organizations.

[@SeymoreTheDisappointed]

Pretty sure you see Sam kill a bunch of terrorists in age of ultron too

[@jacliffh9221]

In Civil war tho, but true

[@BrightLord1823]

​@@jacliffh9221no no, he's right the whole avengers were killing hydra soldiers in modern day, they had stolen lokis staff and the avengers knew they were to dangerous to be kept alive

[@Pink.andahalf]

​@@BrightLord1823 He referenced Sam, who only shows up at the end to shoot Ultrons in that movie.

[@BrightLord1823]

@@Pink.andahalf oh shoot, I realized I messed up on that, it's been a while since I saw that. I thought he was in that beginning scene, thanks for correcting me.

[@TubbyConnorApparatus2.0]

@@Pink.andahalf That was Rhodey, not Sam.

[@KnightWolfVT]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who see John more as a sympathetic character over the bad guy they tried to make him

[@freedomwriter9688]

I feel they never tried to make him the bad guy, as we see they purposely give him. A few scenes of being himself, for example his scenes with his wife and Lemar, especially where we see himself doubting or even questioning the things he did while on service, that I feel was down on purpose, similar to how view or reactors felt about him, cause we believe he will become a villain, he is a bit disrespectful to Sam and Bucky even if at first it wasn’t intentional, he also a bit impulsive and is willing to act first before of actually thinking of a plan. He never was a villain but just an antagonist who still did the right thing. In the end he accepted he was never meant to be captain America but us agent

[@LordVader1094]

​@@freedomwriter9688The problem is he's a better Captain America than Sam is in the show.

[@dustinbagayao2120]

​@@freedomwriter9688Sam and bucky was the disrespectful one, like saying his not cap because of the shield, refusing his offer on the jeep, even disrespecting his friends nickname, or the part where John helps him get out of prison and buck didn't even give him a thankyou, considering how Sam and buck are both veterans,they should've been more understanding about Walker losing a friend in combat

[@freedomwriter9688]

@@dustinbagayao2120 you are so right and valid in all what you said, but here also the thing before walker takes the serum, even though he tries his best to be Captain America he has a little bit of pride and arrogance rub both bucket and Sam the wrong way, the way he call them both Steve’s wingmen( I don’t what he call them it’s been a while since I seen the show) and when he bail Bucky of jail it look like he was showing off his status higher, he doesn’t listen to Sam when he said he was going to talk Karli in Turing her self in. He is a tragic character as he was never given the chance to prove himself being criticized by both the character and fandom

[@doogalfan0017]

Fun fact: the original X-Men animated series irons out the mutant oppression allegory by having mutants who don’t have any superpowers, which calls into question whether or not most mutants are like that

[@ExeErdna]

Most mutants end up more like The Morlocks where they're legit in NEED of help. Or they somehow roll an Omega ability so wild they cannot control it at all. Like that kid Wolverine had to kill because his power was so potent yet passive that killed people just existing around him. Yet how they screw up this message is ignoring the powerless in both humans and mutant reasoning. If mutants are fighting in the middle of the city and somebody beams through a building or throws cars, etc. Who's accountable for that?

[@TheUncivilizedNation]

@@ExeErdna Scenarios like the one you mentioned in the end there is why the Sentinels were invented. To capture all mutants involved and… neutralize the threat. The Sentinels are supposed to be impartial in their treatment of mutants. Kill or contain them all is the goal depending on the story. But then you get things like their AI evolving or them being reprogrammed by someone like Red Skull and now they’re a problem for everyone

[@JohnWilliams-wl9px]

⁠@@TheUncivilizedNationwhat’s interesting to note that in the original comic Trask only made them because he was legimately worried about the dangers mutants could have. As at that point mutants just started to pop up rapidly in so few years they became public knowledge. And in the same issue he realizes the horror of the sentinels and sacrifices himself to stop them. Yet in every time he is revisited that make him worst and a hypocrite because he knowingly has mutant kids.

[@technounionrepresentative4274]

It's a common issue in comic and comics related media, Hard to feel bad for mutants when all we see are super powered gods, More goofy mutants would help

[@Saintbow]

There is another point many fail to really touch on is Walker earned Three Medal of Honors. Earning one is usually means you're dead because you faced impossible odds with bravery and heroism. He earned Three separate MOH... He was a soldier before the shield and serum, where Rogers became a soldier when he got the serum after he was done dancing and making movies. All Disney wanted to do was to make a white American soldier be the enemy. It backfired with Walker and Zemo being the best out of the series.

[@Venneroth]

And apparently all in "the worst day (singular)". I recommend reading some of the real-world citations and imagining how utterly insane those 24 hours must have been. I've been trying and failing to imagine a scenario that would be sufficient.

[@getthegoons]

For reference most of those posthumous MOH stories go something like "he covered the escape of allies with nothing but one machine gun, he fought for like 18 hours straight, and when they recovered his body he was surrounded by dead bad guys and had been shot 30 times and bled out literally all of his blood." The living recipients usually did shit like capture 30 enemies single handedly or charged every single machine gun in the area or something absolutely insane like that.

[@imagodyourehorny]

If walker had all his gear Sam and Bucky would have been nothing but stained shit on a wall

[@skeletonnoise6178]

You can't even get 3 medals of honor today. Rather stupid but he must've done some truly exceptional things

[@g.williams2047]

@@Venneroth Singlehandedly stopping an entire army like you would in a video game, multiple times?

[@JK-uv9zj]

Similar reasoning explains why Rorschach became a fan favorite.

[@mymindspace5265]

Thats how i felt well my English was trying to explain why hes a bad guy well also explaining his detication and backstory

[@maninthemask6275]

It actually baffles me on how Rorschach was supposed to be morally grey he was an absolute moralist who never blinked for even a second, like was he supposed to have some negative traits?

[@cantmossadtheassad9952]

Literally the only time a really disagreed with rorschach during the film was right at the end where he wants to tell the world the truth instead of let peace prevail but even then I can understand and sympathize with his position

[@raycom201]

Didn’t he let his teammate get assaulted because he thought she deserved it?

[@maninthemask6275]

@@cantmossadtheassad9952 I personally see that as the ultimate embodiment of virtue that even utopia built upon one sin can’t be given moral justification. It’s really what people means when they say you should do something right just because it’s right. even if doing what is moral makes you lose everything, and changes nothing about the world you should still pursue virtue for the sake of virtue you it’s self. It’s honestly the closest thing you can get to true martyrdom as you can get while the world may despise you for it, you still did what was right, which to me really puts Roshak up there with some of the greatest heroes. But yeah I get what your saying to.

[@thegang3551]

The problem is that modern writers genuinely believe the good guys are the bad guys.

[@georgechapman9688]

And the mass murderers are just misunderstood

[@Lulz1356]

​@@georgechapman9688 damn both of you just read my mind.

[@stephenjames2159]

It's what happens when you poll from a group of nepo babies that think rules are for thee

[@g.williams2047]

Modern writers are part of the bad guys.

[@goldenfishes3695]

Even in real life, haven't we saw all the articles on human rights violations by El Salvador when literally no one give a damn when the triads were killing the country with drugs and trafficking.

[@poslednisoud]

Characters like these are sad reminder that our culture and in result our society is set by people with moral compass that is broken and divorced from reality.

[@michaelknox3715]

That's not a fact. It depends on what you define as a moral compass.

[@Pherim_]

​@@michaelknox3715For the USA it is at least

[@ltb1345]

True.

[@GCheckCentral]

​@@michaelknox3715 just because morality is subjective doesn't mean you can't hold people to standard. Him smashing a dude to death is bad, but so is being a terrorist who wants half the population to disappear again.

[@cousinpatsey2471]

lol

[@The_Mongoose]

UTRH always reminds me of this line from TDKR: "How many people have I murdered by letting you live?"

[@patrickholt8782]

What’s UTRH?

[@hk1371]

​@patrickholt8782 Under The Red Hood And TDKR means The Dark Knight Returns

[@killer-ox4rp]

damn that is a great line

[@cantmossadtheassad9952]

I remember star wars expanded universe/legends did this with general grevious(canon did him way dirty) where he's supposed to be at best a sympathetic villain but even though it was the sith that crashed his ship and mutilated him and not the jedi and republic like he believed there's still the fact that the republic and jedi sent boots on the ground to help the huk slavers enslave his people(the kaleesh) for the crime of fighting against the huk slavers who were invading their world and afterwards causing a famine on kalee, grevious is entirely justified in hating the republic and jedi and the fact that the CIS affiliated banking clans agreed to give relief aid to kalee in exchange for grevious leading the CIS droid army entirely justifies him fighting for the separatists

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

According to legends Grievous' civillian killcount is in the billions (info from ROTS novelization). Just want to add that since I think it adds to the comment, but I agree that it's pretty good justification for his hatred

[@AJadedLizard]

Grievous was one of my favorite characters in the EU. Lucas's initial idea was that each film's primary antagonist would in some way mirror Vader: a being consumed by hatred (Maul), a fallen Jedi still convinced he was doing the right thing (Dooku), and a good man driven to do horrible things for revenge (Grievous). He just kinda forgot those things when he greenlit Clown Wars (no that isn't a typo).

[@cantmossadtheassad9952]

@@AJadedLizard I generally liked clone wars 2008 but they did grevious way dirty and the show generally couldn't decide between being a kids show or something for young adults

[@AJadedLizard]

@@cantmossadtheassad9952 I've not made it past the second episode; it's got too much concentrated stupid for me. I've seen bits and pieces and it's got some of the worst dialogue of anything I've ever seen, alongside a cartoonishly simplistic view of warfare and how militaries work. (Never forget Pong Krell's grand plan in what's considered The Best Story Ever involved him getting a couple squads of clones to Blue on Blue each other in the hopes Dooku would take him as his apprentice. That's just stupid).

[@cantmossadtheassad9952]

@@AJadedLizard it gets better as the seasons go on, the first couple of seasons are more for kids and it becomes more mature over time, and as far as things go with pong krell that was far from the only thing he did since he was known for having some of the most atrocious amount of casualties among republic forces(he did so purposely in order to kill more clones and weaken the GAR as a whole) and in his arc he was planning to send the clones on a suicide charge against the enemy stronghold which would have either been a crushing defeat at worst or a phyrric victory at best for republic forces on umbara

[@DragonlordN7]

I disagree with your classification of Jason Todd as a straw man. I don’t think that the film is trying to say that he’s wrong, only that Batman thinks he’s wrong. It’s a similar theme as in Batman: Hush, where at the climax Batman can’t let a villain die and he only survives because catwoman kills the villain and gets him to safety. Batman made the objectively wrong choice, because there is no possible way that he could have saved the villain, and in trying he would have died too. But he still couldn’t let him die, because he’s *Batman*. I interpreted Under the Red Hood as doing something similar. It wasn’t portraying Batman’s position as morally justified, only that he would never compromise on it because it’s a core part of his character.

[@sevenclovers7]

Part of the problem is most writers forget to flesh out why Bats won’t kill. Well that and Bats is one of the few comic characters that are constantly challenged on that.

[@davantebarbain3216]

We don't fucking speak about the animated hush movie that shit was ass

[@mohammadhosseini6675]

Which is actually really weird because Batman once said “ Just because I won’t kill you doesn’t mean I have to save you”

[@DragonlordN7]

@@mohammadhosseini6675 Yeah, that… That was stupid.

[@ForgottenFafnir]

I think its a 50/50. On one hand, they often portray it as 'Jason just wants revenge on Batman and the Joker, and this is an excuse', but also that his criticisms are valid. The issue is that he blames Batman for what happened, and Batman, who has a lot of guilt about the situation, cannot deny that blame, even if its misguided. Batman is not the only person with a no kill rule, the issue is that his villains are always pressing the limits, and he is incredibly stubborn about it. Nobody really points at Flash and goes 'Why doesnt he just kill Captain Boomerang' (Thawn doesnt count because the writers know they can just bring him back), or Superman incinerating Dictator and part-time Race Supremecist Zod instead of putting him in the Phantom Zone, aka the other revolving door of DC Prisons. Batman just gets flack because 10% of his Rogues are serial killers that the court refuse to punish. Realistic Criminals who we know should die. I dunno why, 'This guy tortured and killed 5 people' is more persecutable than 'This guy literally enslaves planets for a living'. Theres also the running issue of modern writers missing the entire point of Batman and making him some edgy loner whos just as mentally ill as his rogues, which doesnt help perception of him.

[@rmw9420]

this was probably the last peice of marvel content i watched before dropping them entirely only coming back to see what toby maguires spider man is up to. this show was all it took for me to see the direction marvel was going.

[@godzillazfriction]

God damn, this video really indoctrinated & polarized enough ppl to have this cognitive perception against the movie, especially John Walker himself within the movie.

[@ltb1345]

@@godzillazfriction What?

[@godzillazfriction]

@@ltb1345 I think it's pretty clear... buddy.

[@Lysvsyl]

@@godzillazfriction It's pretty clear you aren't of sound mind.

[@godzillazfriction]

@@Lysvsyl projection...

[@mephosto]

I'm probably using the terms wrong, but I've seen it as a rise of the watsonian vs doylist. More and more modern writers are focused on communicating their themes and views, and lacking understand or care that the logic of the world is ignored or even contradicted.

[@cthulhuman6162]

All writers everywhere have always been focused on getting themes across.

[@mephosto]

@@cthulhuman6162 to the failure of telling the story. too much focus on subtext that is not at all subtle while the plot is paper thin, lacks internal consistence and fails to entertain.

[@nyblller9785]

​@@cthulhuman6162 say that to Tolkien and his worldbuilding

[@thereseemstobeenanerror1219]

​@@cthulhuman6162 Don't be obtuse. You know what he's trying to say.

[@daktotathecolossus7404]

@@mephostoId say its moreso the themes are badly communicated, as in the end “inconsistency” really doesnt matter as long as its not noticable. We tell and read stories for ideas and themes expressed in plot and characters, not a perfectly logical math equation

[@SobaOfPulaski]

They threw away the fact that Falcon was a PTSD support group leader. John Walker was a mentally broken veteran who saw a lot of his friends die in war. I know a buddy of mine (OEF combat vet) stated he felt kind of that they almost took a jab at combat vets with PTSD. I don’t know if I feel that was their intent, but I couldn’t help but kind of get that vibe. Not to mention that they tried to make you feel sympathy for the terrorists, which I couldn’t see. I watched the entire show and couldn’t help but feel like it was just nonsense.

[@ChurchoftheLatterDayShrek]

Yeah I too was confused as to why the show was insistent on villainizing Walker. All he did was accept a job and wanted to help the best he could. Edit: they should've made him into a dollar store Homelander now that I think about it. An arrogant prick who only accepted the role of Captain America for purely selfish gain. He's the one undermining Sam and Bucky's help, not the other way around. His mistakes are entirely on him. It was probably the easiest way to make him be the villain the show wants us to see him as and would make his redemption arc at the end be more impactful

[@regiman222]

True, if they wanted him to be hated, maybe not make him seem like such a nice guy. Make him an ego centric dickhead, or something.

[@freshlyfishedbread5567]

Because that does kinda make him the villain of the story, he may not be an outright bad guy, but to the viewer he's taking captain America's role when he shouldn't and proceeds to taint that role by killing a surrendering enemy

[@yoloswagprobro8227]

I have to assume at least one of the writers there believed in walker or was setting him up for US agent because they did such a good job of characterizing him and making you like him, maybe they had plans to make him an antagonist but I’m sure they had his end goal of being a hero as US agent in mind

[@yoloswagprobro8227]

@@freshlyfishedbread5567I just didn’t see it that way, Karlie was so unbelievably unlikable and we literally just watched his best friend get murdered. These guys are super soldiers, it’s not like they wouldn’t be able to break him out and just kill more people if he arrested him, maybe you shouldn’t kill someone surrendering but he just watched his best friend die, ofc he’s not going to be thinking rationally

[@styxriverr5237]

I always spared Logan in Fable 3 because he well, wasn't wrong and had valuable experience, knowhow and knowledge for my future rule.

[@possiblepuzzles8137]

If Logan also had access to a literal magic money room like we do, none of the conflict would have happened 😅

[@AdeptKing]

I ended up doing just off of pure pragmatism. He's a good commander and a threat to the world is coming. He just can't be the guy in overall command.

[@nicholasfarrell5981]

​@possiblepuzzles8137 or just became a landlord. Literally all he had to do.

[@Phoenix0F8]

Similar phenomenon with Rorschach from Watchmen. Literally designed as an absurd caricature of right winger beliefs; ended up being the only compelling and well remembered character from that comic.

[@carolusrex5213]

It's because at the end he was the only one who stood up against a literal God, he was a man unwilling to let a massacre occur

[@onglanh5329]

If you are talking about the movie version, i agree but comic is another thing

[@LazarNaskov]

Reposting something I said in another comment because I think it fits here too: The problem with Rorschach is that, by his own admission, his moral righteousness is only him trying to cope with the fact that life has no meaning. He is a boiling pot of hatred and rage who kills people for an ideology he doesn't even believe, and is incapable of perceiving any level of nuance or sympathy for people who have been hurt. Whether or not we agree with his actions is one thing, but his motivations are selfish and shallow. The book doesn't even portray him as "wrong" in the final conflict, since we have Mr. Manhattan telling Oz to his face that his plan will fail - because that's not relevant. It doesn't matter if Rorschach's actions are justifiable or not, because all he is is a man who seeks out violence against those he feels are worth less than him in order to appease his own sense of cosmic insignificance. He's a horrible person who just so happens to be doing the right thing a lot of the time.

[@YoshiTheyosh123]

​@LazarNaskov Is the "why" of someone's actions really that relevant though? Your actions and their effects are what will stay with the people around you, not your inner turmoil. I feel that if someone is doing the right thing, complaining that their motivation isn't pure enough is missing the point.

[@LazarNaskov]

@@YoshiTheyosh123 Ehhh I don't like a lot of the consequences of consequentialism, so I would say that motivations are relevent. Plus, I'd argue that a lot of what Rorscharch does isn't the "right choice", as he's often violent and impulsive.

[@TheTMNTurtle]

I think the crowd’s reaction to the Flag Smasher death was the oddest thing ever. At this point, JW was beloved and the Flag Smashers were a problem. Why wouldn’t they be at least relieved? Also curious what the reaction would have been written to be if Cap beat the shit outta Iron Man with the shield in front of a crowd, or if he even would.

[@robrick9361]

What's really stupid about 28 Weeks Later is that Don LITERALLY FIGHTS OFF THE INFECTED AT THE START TO ALLOW HIS WIFE TO ESCAPE. So making him out to be a coward was even more idiotic considering he actually did risk his life trying to help. He just wasn't willing to commit suicide to prove to no one how noble he was.

[@internetjerk2839]

Exactly he tried to save her but saw his wife get swarmed by infected he assumed she was either dead or infected and had no reason to believe otherwise

[@RutheKing5858]

In injustice it’s Wonder Woman that pushes him to go further n further I remember in the game she was just evil basically and in the movie pushed him until he killed that factory of joker supporters

[@AspieVeix]

John Walker is the writing equivalent of the "Task failed successfuly" meme He was meant to be a hero antagonist to contrast the true heroes Bucky and Sam. And yet somehow, they succeeded in making John come off as more sympathetic than them both while Bucky and Sam came off as assholes. However, given the way the show is obviously biased against Walker, I'm pretty sure that was an accident.

[@bigj1905]

15:19 If I recall correctly, after Superman was captured, Jonathan Kent has a conversation with Bruce basically telling him that while he is disappointed in his son and agrees that he needed to be stopped, he also points out that Bruce failed Clark by not being their for him. Jonathan argues that even if Bruce thought that Clark killing The Joker was a step too far, he still should have stood next to him and try to help Clark process his grief, instead of exacerbating it by accusing him of breaking their code and driving Clark further into depression and instability. “You held an unstoppable man to an impossible standard.”

[@talon532]

That really doesn't apply here. Unlike Superman, John Walker is a soldier. He's killed people for his country. Superman has saved villains even when they were near death and even when he's at his lowest point (bar Lois and their baby dying). Walker was a man who took a drug that boosted his strength and speed while fucking up his brain AND just killed someone in broad daylight in front of the entire world. What do you think was gonna happen?

[@joaopedrochagas4170]

Yo, that is literally my favorite MCU related the video on youtube, thanks for reposting

[@azamonra]

There's an argument to be made that Batman doesn't kill because he understands that he isn't mentally stable and without those lines he runs the risk of becoming as dangerous as Joker. As for 28 Weeks Later...yeah I don't disagree but the whole film is so stupid I can't care about that specifically. What bugs me more is why the infected don't attack each other? With zombies it makes sense that they don't try to eat each other because they're drawn to living flesh. The infected are suppose to be hyper crazed to the point they don't even keep themselves alive. So how do they know who is and isn't infected and why does that make any difference?

[@shanehudson3995]

I can't figure out why they don't dehydrate in a matter of hours with all the blood they vomit up.

[@nicolaspaquet-delisle2299]

That's the "modern" interpretation of Batman they use in the Harley Queen show and other "modern" slop. Batman doesn't kill simply because he believes in humanity's ability to do good. For Batman, redemption is possible for everyone, and this is also seen in Owlman, who has zero faith in humanity (f that evil Alfred version, that's also modern slop)

[@gloverwilliams]

Once again, the Don is blamed for no justifiable reason. Man just can’t catch a break.

[@TheSolidSnakeOil]

They did my boy dirty. He was just trying to get back out there after getting over his wife dying of cancer. And you know he took a minute to hype himself up and she just broke his hand and stole the bike he rebuilt from scratch to keep his mind occupied.

[@gloverwilliams]

@@TheSolidSnakeOil He was trying to find a new mother to love his infirm daughter as much as he does (she has a degenerative bone disease). He thought he found that in Captain Marvel, but he was wrong (she broke his wrist and stole his bike and jacket).

[@Dragonlover553]

I didn’t realize this had gone down. Hopefully it stays up; it’s a pretty good one.

[@InvinciDon]

John Walker is possibly one of my favorite MCU characters of all time, and I’m not joking. John himself is exactly how I imagine a modern Captain America would be, his character was enjoyable for me to watch on screen, and to learn he’s being portrayed by Kurt Russel’s son Wyatt Russel was even more amazing, because I remember him from a movie called Overlord, I highly recommend watching that movie. Can’t wait to see this dude in Thunderbolts.

[@arx3516]

What i got from watching the series is that John, Sam and Bucky were all at fault for different reasons. Sam and Bucky were simply pissed by the fact that this stranger was chosen to replace their dear friend; John's fault was that he was simply not ready to fill the shoes of Cap, he let his emotions get in the way and wasn't able to think straight under stress, wich is ridiculous since he wasn't a recruit, but an experienced soldier with a lot of combat experience. They should have presented Walker as a cold blooded professional who never questions orders and only cares about accomplishing the mission, no natter the cost.

[@TheAzulmagia]

The Joker is such a frustrating character because writers can't help themselves going overboard with his crimes. If you want Batman's whole "I won't kill" code to not look ridiculous, just don't have The Joker doing stuff like murdering children for giggles. It doesn't necessarily make Batman look weak for not killing him, but it does make Batman look stupid when he does stuff like save Joker from being nearly killed by his own plans while admitting he knows Joker will just keep being unremorseful.

[@13SScorpio]

I love the X-Men, but the comparison to opressed minorities was always deeply flawed for me. Many Mutants are legitimately immensely powerful.

[@tio_john]

Dude I aways though the same like ok I can see a parallel with racism but other than that I think it's a big stretch to compare the struggles of most minorities with X-Men because unlike the X-Men universe a gay guy can't level a damm city or change the magnetic poles of the planet.

[@LordTyph]

It wasn't even a comparison at first, it was just outcasts in general when they were first created. The X-Men were created in order to help fight off evil mutants who thought themselves superior to humanity (Magneto starting out as one of them before later writers gave him his backstory of being a survivor of the... special showers in germany).

[@azamonra]

I'm not 100% familiar with X-Men canon so maybe they already did this but I've always thought the idea of mutants being oppressed minorities would have worked better if only some mutants had powers like the X-Men and Magneto and the majority were like Break. No actual super powers and very obviously not human.

[@GamerKonata]

The oppressed minority angle was kind of added on after the fact when Claremont started writing the book. His run was good, but it caused some inconsistencies since the stories clearly wasn't intended to be that. The Magneto = Malcom X thing kinda falls apart when canonically he's committed acts of terror that would make Bin Laden blush.

[@thelastknight6519]

@@azamonra many mutants in the comics do have really shit/obviously inhumane powers that functionally useless without a lot of training at best, and permanently debilitating and life altering at worst

[@StriderStryker]

Soldier Boy did the same shield stab technique and everyone laughed at it. When John Walker does it, MCU stans immediately hate him for this. It seems like this show knows a bit too much about the internet and John Walker became my favorite MCU character.

[@taqresu5865]

Another excellent example of the John Walker Effect aka Sympathetic Strawman, are the Kens in the Barbie Movie. The filmmakers and writers want you to see the Kens as the Antagonists in this situation, as men who want to opress because they discovered the Patriarchy. But that's not how they come across because in Barbie society, the Kens are the oppressed party. They are homeless slaves to the Barbies, only existing for the sake of the Barbies. They have no agency or autonomy, no power whatsoever. So when Ryan Gosling's Ken encounters the real world, he is awestruck by the equality and opportunities he sees here (the movie fails to paint the real world as a "Toxic Patriarchy."). Ken Gosling returns to the Barbie world to liberate the other Kens and promote Equality. They even devise a Democracy in Barbie Land, which would benefit everyone. But instead the Barbies take that all away, and reinstate the systemic Sexism, even excluding the Kens from having any democratic power. The media coverage surrounding this movie tries to delegitimize the John Walker Effect, but that didn't stop Ryan Gosling for being awarded.

[@DANBAN119]

I disagree ever so slightly, because in the Barbie world they paint the real world as the cartoonish patriarchy that, sadly, many feminists see the world as, despite that objectively not being the case. Ken doesn't really bring "equality" as he still makes it so that the barbie's serve the Kens as opposed the Ken's serving the Barbies. I see it more as a warning that just because your the oppressed doesn't mean you can't eventually become the oppressor. But yeah the barbie movie makes me sympathize for the Kens way more than the barbies, especially at the end when everything goes back to how it use to and presumably the Kens are still homeless. Like, if THATS what the movie is trying to say is the ideal world when women run things, then I think you just spawned even more misogynistic men.

[@taqresu5865]

@@DANBAN119 I get what you're saying. The general point is that the people behind the film (and the media that praises and defends the film) is trying to push this idea that the Kens are the antagonists, and turned the Kens into a strawman fallacy in order to sell the film's message. And articles were raised blaming fans for sympathizing with the Kens. There were even people telling women to dump their male partners if they sympathize with Ken.

[@ExeErdna]

@@DANBAN119 If you breakdown the Kens and the Barbies into how LA itself is you see the problem. The Ken are clearly the homeless that roam the beach areas that they CLAIM doesn't exist. Where the Barbies are in the Hills, living in villas and have dynamic job freedom. That's where the problem lies they legit made the homeless out as the oppressor

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

​@@DANBAN119 The movie is not making serious commentary on how a matriarchy would work. Outside of their hobbies the Barbies are supposed to be a caricature of men, while the Kens are supposed to be a caricature of women (atleast in their position before Ken finds out about patriarchy and after he gives up on it)

[@DANBAN119]

@@taqresu5865 Wow, didn't even know that bit about media hating on people sympathizing with the Kens.

[@killingxgesture]

100%, though the Red Hood section is a little off. In the film, Batman basically says, "I WANT to kill Joker. I want to kill all of them," implying that Batman's rage and desire for justice would turn him into a monster if he broke the rule, because there would be literally nothing holding him back anymore. He wouldn't *stop* at Joker if he crossed the line, because the line isn't reasonable, it is unending rage.

[@baumholderh8425]

I agree with everything expect for Red Hood. The entire point is that he sympathetic. You feel for him, you can imagine his pain and a part of you feel he should get revenge. But revenge won’t fix anything, it will only make you a murder. Only justice can bring peace to crime. The one problem is that Getting rid of the death penalty is not entirely a good argument, so I will agree to this extent. Infact, one of the arguments against the death penalty is that it is no longer necessary with life prison terms. Something that is not true with Joker. But assuming Batman did have a good argument the only way RedHood would be if he was sympathetic. If you almost want to help him but you just can’t.

[@TOONYBOY]

I haven't played that far into Fable 3, but is there no one in that game that in relation to the "tyrannical" choices to side with Logan and prepare for the Darkness suggests that we repeal the laws once the threat has been dealt with? Like, yeah, we can't damn well have the 8-12 year olds _fighting_ the wars, but with training and some supervision, they'll be capable of at least _making the weapons_ for the adults to use. Let's defeat the Darkness and _THEN_ we'll ban child labour. They did this in Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. It was depicted as a sad moment, but a VERY necessary decision to take "every able-bodied man and strong lad able to bear arms" to prepare for the encroaching army of Orcs numbering in the tens of thousands. Helms Deep was manned by a few hundred soldiers, for reference. It was shown to be a sad scene where we see 70-80 year old men clad in armour and 12-14 year old children carrying axes around while their mothers begged for the soldiers not to take their children, but this was the people of Rohan pushed to the very peak of their desperation as they faced the end of their lives. Every man, woman and child sheltered in Helms Deep was one night away from complete slaughter, they had no other choice than to take everything they had

[@Carzeyday]

Weirdly Logan is not the tyrannical side..Everything you find out about him is consider a middle road. In fact the person telling you the choices basically says in a sense "Or you can get more money by being worse the Logan." He aint no saint,but he aint the evil path either.

[@TOONYBOY]

@@Carzeyday What I mean is that you're given two options, right? Good and bad? Paragon/Renegade like in Mass Effect?

[@Carzeyday]

@@TOONYBOY Fable 3 is one of the few games a middle road is possible. You are given the choice to lower taxs, keep them as logan did or go even higher to the point people actually become poor. There is no middle road all the time but some of these are choices Logan would not amuse.

[@TOONYBOY]

@@Carzeyday Huh. That sounds like something that should be mentioned in this video, because that doesn't sound like the Sympathetic Strawman trope. The whole reason that trope is erroneous in the first place is because it attempts to make a reasonable person look bad, but accomplishes the opposite, whereas it sounds like Fable is going out of its way to highlight that Logan isn't the pure evil tyrant we assume he is

[@Carzeyday]

@@TOONYBOY It is quite clear the game is saying ":It is easy to judge em, now try being better." Since you are given good karma for sparing him at the trail even If the people boo you.

[@dragonknight8020]

My favorite part of this conversation is asking what Steve would have done in the exact same spot.

[@MH3Raiser]

I think the problem is this: Marvel doesnt trust their audiences. There's another reality where Walker isnt used as a Strawman and Sam still gets the shield, because IMO as he's portrayed in the rest of the MCU, Sam truly does deserve the shield and mantle of Captain America. We already see glimmers of it here: John helps Sam and Bucky out time and time again, shows hesitation with regards to who he'd become with the power of the serum and eventually finds his own place alongside them. But Marvel got paranoid that if John Walker was too self sacrificing (too similar to Steve) and Sam grew to respect him, people would stop seeing Sam as worthy of the shield. This is, but simply, bonkers. At worst it would show that there's more than one person carrying on Steve's legacy. What makes more sense is that they were worried a more sympathetic and accepted Walker would become a rallying beacon for all the special boys and girls who would never want Sam as captain america for... other reasons. So... they have to distance Sam and Bucky from John, make them see him as fundamentally unfit to bear the shield and treat him as such... but they still want John Walker to be a parallel Steve Rogers for that sweet sweet subext: "What if Steve cared about America a little more and stopping bullies a little less?" They tried to have their cake and eat it, and all it resulted in was Walker becoming a worse character... but likeable anyway and making Sam and Bucky looks like assholes.

[@succurro]

It makes sense for the military or the government to choose Walker as Cap rather than Sam. Sam hasn’t served in years, he took Cap’s side when Cap went against the establishment. Walker is a career soldier who is dependable and also has a friend he can rely on. Now, aside from having been a superhero, Sam doesn’t bring much to the table. And even the superhero bit had no transferable skills he can use to take Cap’s mantle. He just flew around, he didn’t really fight anyone hand to hand for the most part. In fact, Bucky would be a far better candidate but his past is very sketchy and that could actually be a really interesting plot . We could see Bucky trying to redeem himself to the public but instead we got this.

[@phearamax4146]

Walker may not be Steve Rogers, but he's my Captain America.

[@franciscorui]

I think Chloe from Miraculous Ladybug is something similar. She had many sympathetic and interesting points but the major writer decided to damn her to evil writing.

[@omnipresentl1316]

That whole show is damned by terrible writing. Hell, Adrien has more qualities to be the main character as he has a motivation for being a hero beyond being altruistic since it lets him act in a way he never got to because of his father. He has the secret connection to the main villain, his villainous side was much more terrifying in comparison, and many other points in his favor. What really makes me not like Marinette is the fact she is a severe stalker who likes to sniff Adrien's clothes. The fact that another character does exactly what she does and is called a creep but the show acts like it's fine when she does it is bonkers. Oh and the annoying "I'm just a normal girl" but she is in a very successful bakery while designing clothes for actual models and is one of the most popular people around shows that isn't true. Sorry about the rant, this show is a lot like RWBY where the potential was there but the actual writers did a bad job to the point I only watch it to understand what happens in the fanfics (which a vast majority of are much better written)

[@caspertheemoghost534]

Thats much different from this case. Chloe is written as evil and comes off as evil. They give her redemptions but go back to making her evil. If the bad writing made her come off as good unintentionally then this would be similar

[@claudius3359]

​​​@@omnipresentl1316No no you've got a point

[@calamitycruz4614]

john walker actually deserves the shield compared to falcon

[@baron6588]

He doesn’t, no one deserves that shield right now.

[@John-fk2ky]

Can't agree with the Red Hood example. It raises an interesting point, but you're forgetting that Batman isn't a government agent. He's a vigilante. There are lines he doesn't cross because he lacks the authority and rather critically needs the police to trust him. You're also slightly missing Bruce's issue. Sure, it's just deleting (censored for KZbin) the Joker now, but the same logic of just offing the rest of the Rogues Gallery makes just as much sense. They get out, cause chaos, and Batman catches them. Rinse and repeat. The Joker is just the one Jason has a grudge against. The question is why no one in the GCPD just offed the Joker or why Jason didn't do it himself. If it was that important, Jason's wasted a lot of time and lives going on a deleting spree to get at the Joker instead of just going straight for him. It would be just as simple to set up a general breakout at Arkham and take Joker out in the chaos. Or just break in and delete him. It makes Jason here interesting, but his point is pretty weak.

[@jahrusalem3658]

To be fair, Jason is... not alright in the head at the best of times.

[@arnowisp6244]

Exactly. The only reason Batman has the trust of the Police is that he isnt Judge, Jury and executioner.

[@TheUncivilizedNation]

Counterpoint: Jason has the perfect setup for the Insanity plea so he’ll face no real consequences just as easily as Joker does

[@robrick9361]

@@arnowisp6244 Sorry this argument doesn't work considering Gotham is so messed up that a billionaire had to start fighting crime for anything to actually get done. Batman doesn't need the police, the police need Batman. And besides Batman has the entire criminal underworld wanting him dead, why would he fear the police department. Plus the public would be on Batman's side since all the weekly death marathons the villains keep trying would be over since he would kill them all.

[@chordalharmony]

Loomar went over this in the pinned comment of the original, so I’ll paraphrase it here: Red Hood is not the sympathetic strawman in that example, the example was brought up because Batman could not come up with a compelling argument to counter Red Hood’s ideology.

[@kingt0295]

I legitimately never viewed John Walker as an antagonist. He was a hero legitimately the whole time he just had ptsd.

[@Lampoluke]

28 weeks later was so stupid. I thought the beginning was made to set up how terrible the situation was, the father was a coward, sure, but the mother indirectly killed everyone else because she had to bring the child inside. Paul Atreides from Dune is another one. The modern movies did not understand the point of his character. They even rewrote some other characters to make him look worse.

[@Cameron39829]

Yeah I think people forget that Paul is ment to be a best case scenario to show even if the best person gains this power its can still lead to death and destruction

[@Lampoluke]

@@Cameron39829 In book 1 Paul can give up, but it will result in the deaths of his mother, his sister, himself and the entire Fremen population. In book 2, Paul can literally see every future and chooses the best one, and it comes at a great cost.

[@Cameron39829]

@Lampoluke that's what I'm saying tho, Paul is a good person it's why he eventually leaves and exiles himself but he still brought death and destruction and he himself realizes this

[@oscar0709]

I think this sympathetic strawman idea applies perfectly to Jason in Stranger Things season 4. SPOILERS: He's portrayed as the villain for having an easily understandable reaction to his girlfriend's death, nobody tells him the truth about the supernatural things happening in Hawkins (even though Lucas told Max about it in season 2 for almost no reason), he comes to the only rational conclusion he can after his best friend dies in a supernatural way (with Eddie the presumed murderer being the only person nearby who could have possibly killed him), then he uses violence (after Lucas attacks him first) as a last resort after trying to persuade Lucas not to kill Max (that's his understanding of the situation in that scene). Then Jason gets cut in half and he's never mentioned again. I understand why a lot of people would find his character annoying or have an automatic rejection to his worldview, but it baffles me that so many people think he deserved his (extremely brutal) death. It's worth noting that while Sam and Bucky are actively antagonising Walker, the protagonists are basically nowhere near Jason throughout the season, so he comes to these conclusions based solely on the limited data he's presented, whereas every other time someone has needed to know about the upside down, they've been told the full story and given all the context.

[@shrap_assassin7625]

Definitely agree with your Stranger Things statement. While I definitely didn’t enjoy his character, what he got was so undeserving. Now I know Lucas most likely wasn’t in his right mind either but how he couldn’t just try and get out his sentences and explain. Or even just go along with Jason (as we know that just listening to the music doesn’t instantly pull Max out of Vecnas realm, at the very least they could’ve PROLONGED her bones from snapping. Obviously thinking about it too deep now, but it just one of those things with writing in newer shows/movies that makes me scratch my head

[@jackofastora8962]

in defense of fable 3, Imo the point was that even if what you're doing ultimately helps the people and will lead to victory and therefore a far better peace, there will always be someone to call you evil, and a populace that is already in fear of a looming threat is easily incited into arbitrarily deciding that there is only good and evil; What benefits them most is good, and what they dont like is evil. Thus, we we are put exactly in the place of logan, knowing that doing whats best will result in the people's outrage, but placating them will result in even more tragedy. Or maybe they just shittily wrote that part of the game, who knows

[@nicholasfarrell5981]

Unfortunately, you can legitimately cheese the game and just win while doing the entire "good" run of actions. So that ends up falling flat as a message.

[@drewpeacock9087]

@@nicholasfarrell5981 turns out the entire crown's treasury and taxes is a pittance to just becoming a landlord

[@clublazy9468]

I like how the wakanda police state say they can have jurisdiction wherever and when ever they see fit and it comes off like she’s the badass and walker needs to stand down. But if it was a white cop saying the same thing to the black character it would be completely different tones

[@DemonKingCozar]

I think the easiest example of this is Joel. We had an entire game to make us like Joel but then the entirety of the sequel actually tells us that he's wrong and he's awful and deserved his brutal death. Heck even Ellie applies because the game wants us to feel horrible about her actions and disagree with her when most players didn't think she did enough. So when she spares Abby at the end and finds forgiveness, it feels terribly forced and contrived. Especially after Ellie crossed the country a second time to get revenge and then doesn't, and the game just sucks up to Abby the whole time.

[@HawaiianCoconut]

Part of me feels like Steve Rogers would’ve liked John Walker (as the show is written) on some level. I think he would’ve not agreed with his arrogance (perhaps an overcorrection for John’s feeling of inadequacy in the role) but would’ve sympathized with how complicated it has become to serve the nation, as Steve found out in Winter Soldier. I think he would’ve seen that John’s heart is in the right place but would’ve needed some time to fully grow into it.

[@hnaw1360]

Idk man. Batman is understandable. When you go up against the worst of humanity on a daily basis and in media we're ACTIVELY shown they can change through characters like Harley Quinn, Killer Croc, Catwoman or Poison Ivy. If he killed The Joker it WOULD send him down the same path as Injustice Superman. He killed The Joker and now, for the rest of his time as a crime fighter, he'll have a voice in the back of his head actively telling him "well you killed The Joker. How is Riddler any better? He uses people to lure Batman out, kills people just so he can play his game" "The Penguin is a crime boss, killing him could slow the crime of the whole city. Considering most people in Gotham are killed by petty muggers. Wouldnt he be worse than the Joker in terms of how many died because of him?" "Bane is hyper intelligent and strong" "Croc kills anyone hes told to or just anyone who gets too close" "Ivy cares more about plant life than human life" Outright if Batman killed Joker his intelligent mind would logically give reasons as to why he should go on to kill the rest. If he makes an exception for one he'll eventualy make an exception for them all.

[@FlameLord050]

No that's the slippery slope fallacy. Killing joker doesn't mean he has too or should kill the others. There are better reasons why batman doesn't kill the joker.

[@hnaw1360]

@FlameLord050 Yeah. But at the same time just because he doesn't have to doesn't mean he won't. If you begin there's no telling if you can stop. Batman is aware of this which is why he has his no kill rule, he believes in reform and if he kills one he'll find reasons to kill them all. You can SAY he won't but with the fact Batman goes up against people who literally put others lives in danger JUST to talk to him like The Riddler, I truly do believe that the worst of his rogues would eventually die. Sure it's not right away but EVENTUALLY Batman will break and make more and more exceptions to the rules. It's not about "only killing the Joker" it's about giving himself a reason to avoid killing them all. He has his no kill rule because of his own awareness that he wouldn't be able to stop himself if he used murder to stop ANYONE. That's my interpretation of it anyway and I think it's fitting for Batman AND his rogues. Sure, they may not be as bad as The Joker, but they're still psycho's who constantly break out of Arkham and murder innocent people. That being said, not sure why people care so much SPECIFICALLY about the Joker when logically a crime boss like The Penguin has probably been the cause of WAY more deaths. He's just not getting his hands dirty, he has others to do it for him.

[@FlameLord050]

@@hnaw1360 I'm not saying that he won't I am just explaining that the argument of of he does x he will then do y isn't a valid argument. If in killing the joker we know with 100% certainty the he would then start murdering others it would be valid but we don't know it so it's not. It has the same reasoning as why you shouldn't imprison people who are likely to commit a crime but have not yet done it. An example of why batman shouldn't kill would be that it is not his place to as a vigilante, or that he believes that the joker could be redeemed. Not that batman might go do more bad things.

[@calicomarker]

Here’s the difference though, Joker is a continued repeat offender with no goals outside of Kill ppl and egg on Batsy, a lot of his other villains have motives that make them easily redeemed or aren’t dangerous enough villains or villains for long enough to be considered worth death. Poison Ivy is evil yes, but her motivations for evil come from Environmental Activism, it’s very easy to sympathize with a cause like that. Penguin is a Mobster, the most he does is steal money, he can easily be locked up and redeemed if he wanted it or just kept in the asylum. Joker repeatedly breaks out of prison with the intention of hurting ppl for no other reason than he wants to. He cannot be redeemed, he cannot be restrained, If the Government won’t kill the Joker, it falls on Batman to kill him.

[@hnaw1360]

@calicomarker Literally every main villain in Gotham is the exact same. Stop trying to act like Joker somehow different. The sad backstory? The motive for why he became a villain? He LITERALLY said it himself... One bad day. If you're gonna use the fact he's crazy? Well then kill Harley Quinn since she's crazy too. If you're gonna use the fact he's more dangerous? As I said The Penguin has 100% caused more death than the Joker. This whole "Oh he should just kill The Joker" feels like a way for people to act smarter as if the logic isn't completely flawed. The Joker has a reason and a motive for why he does what he does he doesn't just kill for the sake of it. Logically if Batman killed ANY of his villain, even if its not the Joker, he would eventually kill the rest. It's not even disputable since it what Batman himself says, he's a smart as fuck detective that can see good in ALL these terrible people (EVEN THE JOKER) he's more than likely smart enough to psycho-analyze himself too... Even if we don't know how he'll react HE knows how he'll react so like... Even Batman is aware of it

[@Reviwedtooth18]

Waiting for him to be the American Agent in Thunderbolts, he’s just so cool

[@_Rulely_]

I'm afraid there gonna give him the Ironwoods from RWBY Treatment next time we see him

[@KingBrooks87]

lets just hope that don't happen

[@Drip_Wooper]

General Ironwood... haven't heard that name in what 4 years? That still pisses me off to this day lmao Like, I enjoy watching badly written things, usually I do, was the reason why I got into RWBY (wasn't interested at first because it looked lit af, some people told me it got bad after Volume 4 so I decided to give it a try), seeing how they did him was one of the first times I got actually genuinely mad at a script, and understood for the first time that I enjoyed *mildly* badly written plots, not fullblown doodoo. Funnily enough, ever since him I've seen so many more like him ever since, I think they were always there, I just didn't notice them until him. "Protagonists call out someone and then do the exact same thing, nobody bats an eye"

[@rosesongoku6980]

Oh lord. I always think about Ironwood when it comes to complete and utter character assassination. He is one of the most HORRIFIC examples I have ever seen.

[@bryguytyguy]

The worst part about all of this to me is how they’ll push Sam being Captain America down your throat, but they won’t give any time of day to an original black character like Battlestar. And yes, I understand Battlestar is basically a cap offshoot character, but so is Falcon, and so is Eli Badley Patriot and I LOVE Patriot

[@studentmoviesandvibes1671]

this made me just passively not care about that captain america show to downright hating like jesus christ, if i was a MCU writer that greenlighted this project id be living with shame for the rest of my life

[@rainbowappleslice]

I really like Walker because it showed what would realistically would happen If you actually tried to fill the position of captain America’s with anyone else. Walker sees that himself and trying to do so ruins his life

[@SnowithVG]

I'm lowkey glad this got re-uploaded because I always seen it and meant to watch it but never did till now

[@some_otaku_nerd6546]

By the way, the Batman no kill rule came about originally because he knows how it feels to lose a loved one, the modern movies either don't acknowledge the rule or give the stupid reason provided in under the red hood and injustice.

[@donovanmiller9380]

I think the writers were trying to blame "the system" which is the correct thing to blame, i would argue Sam's solution and how they handled walker aligns with that, even though they did a terrible job.

[@tylerlong5112]

Honestly would love a movie about Walker trying to be the next Cap and people giving him shit for it and realize they need him more than ever.

[@itsraventm]

idk if i forgot or repressed the fact i watched this show but man, what a roller coaster to be reminded of how horrible the writers were in this

[@logan_graal]

I've watched this video three times in total now. Twice on the original, and one more to support the reupload. It's just that good.

[@RealMrHater]

i was wondering why this video wasnt showing as being watched, glad you were able to get this back out it was a great video

[@nategraham6946]

Walker is single-handedly my favorite character in all of phase 4. He is the right man to inherit the mantle/shield/title of Captain America, and he still is in my eyes.

[@MarvinPowell1]

Reupload? I'll take it. In the past few years, we've had: John Walker himself, from _Falcon and the Winter Solder,_ who reluctantly tried to be the new Captain America because the government wanted him to, but with PTSD and no supersoldier serum or enhanced powers, and got the mean-girl treatment from Sam Wilson, a man who's literal day-job is a military trauma counselor and mental health therapist. Ken, from _Barbie,_ who single-handedly created a Utopian gender-equal society in a single day, only to have the "protagonist" lie and manipulate everyone around her to destroy the perfect Kendom society and bring back oppression and male sexism to Barbieland. Homelander, from _The Boys_ (although he's a mild example and is still mostly evil,) who was abused and psychologically tortured as a child and still mostly avoids hurting people and really just needs a mother figure and a really good therapist. At this point though, the writers of The Boys are so morally horrible, any antagonist is going to effectively be the "good guy." The Dweller from _The Rings of Power,_ who is genuinely more "heroic" and sympathetic than fake Galadriel, who's a legitimate villain protagonist. Todd from _She Hulk: Attorney at Law,_ who they treat as an "incel" because he's physically unattractive and makes less money than the protagonist, therefore is "bad," while the protagonist goes around causing property damage in the city, nearly hurting normal men for supposed "toxic masculinity," and objectifying tall, physically attractive guys, while ironically also complaining about the same thing imaginary men supposedly "do to her" on a daily basis. Cuff, from the game _Forspoken,_ who was essentially nothing more than a soldier from a rival nation (the main "good" nation being a powerful oppressive empire of all-female rulers), who was imprisoned and tortured, yet treated like a truly evil villain for simply doing his job and defending his country. And a rare female example of Dar-Benn from _The Marvels,_ who had her entire homeworld destroyed by Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel didn't even care, so she's now trying to restore her own homeworld back to the way it was (even if it means ruining others in the process, which is the only "bad" thing she's doing.)

[@caesarspeaks]

Ken didn’t create a gender equal society what are you talking about

[@internetalias1613]

​@@caesarspeaksyeah this guy is just making stuff up, claiming homelander avoids hurting people? Lol

[@norrecvizharan1177]

@@internetalias1613I mean, half and half in a way. When the show first started out, he tried to be better in at least some capacity (gotta keep that “superhero image” after all), but soon enough the terrible situations and years of abuse kinda caught up with him. At the very least, he was more nuanced in the comics. Although in the case of the barbie movie, it kinda wound up lopsided on both sides, so I agree that there wasn’t much of a point bein made there.

[@robinthrush9672]

My understanding from many reviews is that Ken made a society in which everyone was happy, but it wasn't depicted as gender-equal. Not that it was before Ken took over or after the vote for leadership.

[@quantumvideoscz2052]

Let's be real, Homelander? Avoiding hurting people? He's a narcissistic psychopath. Literally incapable of actually caring about other people. He only cares about them in relation to himself, including Ryan. Sure, Homie had the worst childhood of all time, but he's absolutely NOT in any way, shape or form a good person. It's just that the people around him are equally as terrible or even worse, such as the scientists who kept him in a cell.

[@oivatank]

I remember during my first playthrough of Fable 2, I was trying to be a purely good person, and as far as I remember, all of the choices were easy to make…except for one. There’s a moment where you have to choose to give up the youth of either yourself or an innocent woman. I agonized over the decision, not because I wanted my character to keep looking pretty, but because I wanted my world-saving hero to have all the strength they could possibly have to, well, save the world. I didn’t know if causing my character to turn old would lead to unforeseen consequences, i.e., being too weak to save someone. That was my one and only “evil” choice in that playthrough, and it has haunted me ever since.

[@harismeld9411]

Its weird because I feel like it wouldn't have been hard to make Walker actually in the wrong, like if he'd gone for the wrong guy and ended up murdering a random civilian in his rage, or gone after one of the bad guys' family members who didn't have powers. The intention behind what we got just seems...weird? Like the producers didn't actually understand the scene they were building. The way its setup, the audience can see *why* the bystanders would look at this and see 'guy in captain america's outfit beating an unarmed guy to death', but...WE know thats not how it is. It would make sense if the show put Walker in a sympathetic light while all this is happening, because him losing everything over this isn't far-fetched at all, but its like the producers thought we'd assume the perspective of the bystanders and forget everything else we know as the audience perspective?

[@kjr1150]

The thing that really upsets me most besides the things you touched on here is that I really enjoyed Antony Mackie's character a lot and I really feel they did him dirty with the poor writing in this show

[@NeiasaurusCreations]

Fable 3 logan was always a sympethic villian. He knew what was coming and knew that albion didnt need a hero but villian. A villian willing to do whatever it took.

[@Victor-rb6pq]

Its funny how the Falcon acts like Walker is a lost case, and at the same time, asks for tolerance and forgiveness for Carly. Doesn't even make sense, Sam is a soldier just like John.

[@thndrstrkr117]

Here's my thing with Batman. It's that HE would be more and more willing to kill. That's what he fears for himself. I understood both him and Red Hood. He feared if he took that step, he would reach a point where killing meant as little to him as it did to the Joker. The man literally watched his parents murdered in front of him (and yes I know the Robins pretty much have a similar story), so it is understandable that to kill, for him, is to remove that and create a disconnect and loss of value of life. That being said, I do know they don't always write Batman or Superman the best in this regard, but if we follow the line of reasoning that everyone seems to have regard Batman's conviction not to take a life (of course also dependent on the version), then how do we view real life conscientious objectors, who do not wish to take a life? Do we view them as wrong? Do we view them as cowards (which many of times is how they were/may still be treated)? That's my only (partial) objection. Everything else I do understand and have no objections. Even in regards to my partial objection, I don't fully disagree personally wither, it's just that people all over the internet don't seem to understand Batman's side in this. At least they do understand one of them though.

[@MrTheRandomBucket]

In my opinion, the problem that results in a sympathetic strawman is refusal to properly consider their side of the argument. In some of these cases, the strawman could work if it either encourages the audience to decide who is right for themselves, promoting deeper interaction with the film, or provides actual proper reasoning for why the villain is wrong. The problem is, in these cases the main characters either don't argue their side at all and are just assumed to be correct, or use only poor base level arguments to counter their opponent, with the show treating their argument as better than it actually is.

[@reign1576]

The Dora Milage sounds more like an evil assassin group made by a terrorist organization

[@LCaddyStudios]

The whole point of F&TWS is that it’s a continuation of the themes used in Civil War where there is no black and white, instead there is a massive grey area. Every character/team in the show has their own altruistic beliefs. The flagsmashers are resorting to violence to ensure refugees are protected fairly. Sam/Bucky/Zemo are fighting to prevent more super soldiers, and prevent the flagsmashers from killing innocent people. John Walker is trying to do the same as Sam/Bucky/Zemo, however he is still a soldier, he has been trained specifically to achieve/eliminate a target using any means possible. The point is nobody is Steve Rodgers, a soldier picked exclusively for his ability to be altruistic and remain aware of the greater good. Therefore while Bucky, Sam, John Walker and Zemo each act in a way we sympathise it really is up to the individual to determine which character is in the right, because only Steve could be seen to always act in black and white, not a grey area somewhere in the middle.

[@lolnou4219]

I understand the military and public denouncing Walker because he killed someone in public in a foreign country, what I don’t understand is the story treating that course of action justified and not as just walker getting screwed over due to geopolitics

[@3ddesigns220]

I finished this show, and immediately cancelled Disney+. It was that bad. The real kicker was after the final fight. The terrorist lady gets shot and dies, while Hill also gets shot, but is alive. Who does sam pick up and carry out? The dead terrorist murderer, seemingly to use as an object lesson in his little political rant. He doesn't even ask if Hill is Ok as far as I remember, just leaves her there. Absolute stupidity.

[@reign1576]

John Walker is more of a Captain America than Falcon ever will

[@WilliamUmstattd]

I’d love to see a side by side breakdown between walking killing the guy after his friend died and Steve killing the hydra guy after he thought Bucky died. It’s the same scene but steve is the hero and Walker is the bad guy. I think the issue is the writers think the flag smashers are sympathetic whereas Hydra is not. The flag smashers are in reality just as bad as hydra except they are weaker and less organized.

[@Bigotsandwich1995]

now hang on a sec, you can say what you want about fable as a game but your brother isnt a sympathetic straw man, your supposed to understand what he did,the question your supposed to ask is if you agree with him or not

[@bryguytyguy]

I hope this man doesn’t die in the thunderbolts but he’s prime candidate number one for dying unfortunately

[@Neutral_1zed]

Throughout the entire show, is literally just Bucky and Sam being in some kind of “Superhero clique” and it feels like they look down on both Lemar and John Walker who are just doing their job. Yes, perhaps they’re upset that their respected friend’s legacy is handed down to the government, but by no mean was that a reason to take it out on people who had nothing to do with that decision, Hell, fucking SAM GAVE UP THE SHIELD. I can turn a blind eye to Sam but Bucky? After his brainwashing, he has the motivation to do good, to redeem himself but he still acts like an ass for absolutely no reason to Walker, just because Walker isn’t Steve. You might think for someone who was so closely associated to Steve, has gone through so much and is determined to do many good, would be a bit more understanding of everything instead of scoffing at every person he comes across. (Exaggerated, but his attitude with Walker and Lemar really sells this point that he looks down on others, even if they’re soldiers, he too was once a soldier.)

[@DaydreamingSwede]

I will say, a lot of people can kill someone with a single punch. Humans are extraordinarily good at punching. It's unironically scary how fucking competent we are at punching yet how fragile our bodies can be. Though a single punch to the chest isn't enough to kill most as it is here 8:06 paired with being thrown into a wall. Those treating the terrorist as if he is unarmed are just flat out wrong still. MF could probably tear off my arms if he tried. I do still believe it was reckless of Walker to take the super soldier serum, and that it's why he killed the terrorist. It's the reason specifically Rogers was given it, he is a good man and it elevates everything about the person who takes it. If he didn't take the serum (he wouldn't be able to beat him up then but still) I fully believe he would have taken the terrorist into custody. The prosecution of walker afterwards is also something I'm convinced the US would genuinely do solely to save face that the "symbol of their nation" killed someone on an open street in another country, terrorist or not. The US has done a lot worse, for a lot less.