The Tale of the Rabbi Monk | Prof. Michal Bar-Asher Siegal

[@KEDEMChannel]

Books by Michal Bar-Asher Siegal (affiliated links): Early Christian Monastic Literature and the Babylonian Talmud Paperback amzn.to/40RKEBT Kindle amzn.to/49UBbhe == Heretic Narratives of the Babylonian Talmud Paperback amzn.to/49Qxp8x Kindle amzn.to/40XkUEf amzn.to/3I00P8T

[@stanielmcstanface2270]

Thank you for another wonderful episode Dr. Michal. It is not only thought provoking, but also leads me to wonder how other religious traditions have been appropriated during the entire development of jewish/christian traditions. Thank you

[@KEDEMChannel]

A very interesting question, thank you for your kind words 🙏

[@jessicabrooks6746]

Thank you Dr. Siegel! Now I gotta get the book.

[@adamchapman6530]

Great conversation. Thank you both, Michal and Alex! One keyword that was missing is hagiography, for those who would look for the relevant Christian literature. This literature influenced Islam as well, and a comparative study of all three religions that actually emerged around the same time is needed.

[@KEDEMChannel]

Thank you, much appreciated.

[@funhistory]

Wow! They spent over half an hour recording this video without being shushed by a librarian. 🤫🤐😂

[@Exjewatlarge]

In Israel, talking in the library might be the rule rather than the exception.

[@ByronWarfield]

Was this wonder-working miracle working monk an Essene? It sounds like he was familiar with the Merkabah. Did the Essenes beliefs originate with the "school of the prophets?" Their literature is so heavy in prophetic and apocalyptic content. Fascinating insight and very pallatable scholarship! Thank you again so much!

[@jeangophile]

Wonderful talk with a great scholar! “The Rashbi narrative [is] an inversion of Plato’s elitism of the philosopher-king” (Charlotte Elisheva Fonrobert, “Plato in Rabbi Shimeon bar Yohai’s Cave (B. Shabbat 33b-34a): The Talmudic Inversion of Plato’s Politics of Philosophy,” AJS Review (2007), 31, p. 291).

[@KEDEMChannel]

Thank you!

[@user-yz1dl3eu8l]

Thank to Alex to invite Prof. Bar-Asher Siegal. One (important) point. Her works attests that the existence, the literature, the ways, of Monastic life was known by the authors of the (Iraqi) Talmud. This point is (very) important to the study of another text: The Quran.

[@KEDEMChannel]

I agree, good point. Thank you for your kind words 🙏

[@davidsavage6324]

Rather than saying the Bavli author was casting Rashbi as Notsri; rather maybe Rashbi was carrying on the Essene monasticism-- before assuming Essenism went extinct in some kind of absolute way I recommend R. Ephraim Palvanov's lecture on Rabbinic culture how the lions share of influence was actually Essene theology (already adapted to Judaism without a Temple) rather than Pharisaic.(an exception is Pharisaic calendar rather than Book of Jubilees Essene calendar). I personally find the topic of Judaic monasticism fascinating. Beta Israel monks until 19th century are so interesting. And there's an interesting Jewish connection to the first Western monasticism documented- Pythagoras according to R. Ariel bar Tzadok went to Israel and studied under Yirmiyahu. R. Ephraim Palvanov's Pardes Sulam video- he drops the chidush that the type of "heretic" that Elisha ben Abuya/Acher was after his epiphanical trip-- was Notsri! (*Gasp*!) But its important to point out that Akiva saw the same thing- he apparently said- so what if the Metatronic Moshiach [R. Ariel bar Tzadok teaches two 1st century messianic ideologies- a human ben David Moshiach and a divine Metatronic/Logoic Moshiach]- the very Angel of the Lord of the Torah- Michael our Guardian Angel- incarnated as HaIsh, Yaksha, an enlightened sage?- how would that motivate me to cast off ol shomayim when this sage himself bore the Yoke of Law to the point matyrdom to live a perfect Torah life?!- why not follow suit if one claims to follow this sage with all their heart? [And study Judaism as the Desk of Christianity as Augustine intended.] I also read an introduction to a sefer once- i think it was Sefer Kavanah or something- it discussed these rishonim hachasidim (if i recall correctly) from the mid first millenium bce- Judaic ascetics of the wilderness- so even in ermetic context there could be deeper Hebraic roots than usually acknowledged. And there was that Talmudic sage that was a celibate super Torah scholar and said- what can i do? I love the Torah too much- others can perpetuate the human race [sic]. And with the aforementioned proto hermits- I wouldnt be surprised if it was something along the lines of beguinage to the extent of being temporary-- or if it was one way of expressing a nazirite vow- which as worlds best anthropologist Robert Sepehr teaches- the nazirites took vows of chastity rather than celibacy- meaning a married couple could both take nazir vows- both go dready for a season and promise to sanctify themselves by remaing Tantrically dry when intimate (which I imagine has a connection to Daoist master Montok Chia's (I think thats his name hes on Robert Sepehr's channel) teaching that after getting to the point of orgasm without climaxing if repeated 10 times allows one to talk to God! If thats not far out man I dont know what is.

[@danieljackson654]

What about the parallel stories from several centuries before originating in South Asia?

[@johnorem1915]

Very interesting. I know next to nothing about monastic Jews in Ethiopia. I would like to know more about them.

[@KEDEMChannel]

Thank you! Indeed, a super interesting topic, hope to touch it in one of our future episodes.

[@ke4755]

If someone told me to write a story today, it would be hard not use themes from our culture, like Dr Siegel stated. The same is true of language; the words cannot be static-they pack in culture. In the same way, the OT is affected by Assyrian loans, epics, Egyptian place, the Aramaic Alphabet, etc. Be hard for the Rabbis not to implement learned culture in Babylon. Of course the Rabbis could be trying to reject the vulgar culture. But like Hellenism, it comes in, even if just in Greek words, eg., synagogue, Sanhedrin, midrash, Gemara, etc.

[@ian_b5518]

Michal bringing so much energy to the topic, thoroughly interesting. Not surprising Rabbi Shimon Bar Yohai had lesions on his skin. Carbo is low to non existent in vitamin D and C along with iron. It would be more healthy to bury a Challah in the sand!

[@KEDEMChannel]

Thank you, an interesting observation about Challah burying :)

[@simonereadstexts]

I have a question regarding this (in addition to an email I sent) - in addition to Christian influence, what are the chances of Buddhist or Manichean influence on this type of Rabbinic story? the chain of transmission for Barlaam and Josaphat (the Christianized version of the life of Gautama Buddha popular in Medieval Europe) is from Buddhism to Manicheanism, with a Persian version attested around the time of the redaction of the Bavli, prior to the story's Christianization and transmission into Europe - and miracle-working ascetics are also very popular in late-antique South/Central Asian literature - this may be another comparative avenue requiring investigation - particularly as the Babylonia of the Bavli is right there on the Silk Road, a hot-bed for inter-cultural exchange (and the influence of Buddhism and Manicheanism is protested against by the Patristic writers)

[@alexkalish8288]

The Taoist did this for 600 years previous to the Talmud and this story is straight out of Taoist literature. The Romans traded extensively with the Chinese. That said , the Chinese were looking for immortality and enlightenment - not a relation with Ha Shem. Both religions stole this tradition.

[@Historian212]

@@alexkalish8288 It's important that we not use loaded terms like "stole." Cultural exchange has been a constant among humans. Culture flows in multiple directions, and is not the property of any one group. Usually, each group adapts others' customs and ways to fit into its previously developed ones -- but not always. Sometimes, adaptations are due to migration into new climates, so habits, foodways, language, attire, etc., are influenced by those of longterm populations residing in the new location. In other ways, new migrants bring ideas, customs, etc., with them, which longterm residents adopt for themselves. This is not theft.

[@palsyr4307]

In Syriac Aramaic, we call our monks Raban haha meaning our monk or our teacher or our elder etc In Aramaic, a word can have many meanings depending on context.

[@RorySeanWainer]

Very interesting

[@KEDEMChannel]

Thank you!

[@hansfrankfurter2903]

I have a question for the prof and the Kedem team. When did Judaisim or Jewish identity emerge as a seperate unique identity from prior identities/groups?

[@KEDEMChannel]

Well, this is exactly the topic of our video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4aUhYFjnpWrbcksi=yDWamxUuyFUyaQpX

[@kbergeron9063]

How would you apply Qere and Ketiv to Jesus statement to the Pharisees "for laying aside the commandment of G-d you hold the tradition of men"?

[@anonymous-jd2mc]

Zooming out from the Talmud and looking at Christian texts is cool, but I would argue that cultural movements are bigger than Christianity or Judaism and both react to them. Asceticism also had a Greco-Roman philosophical wing. Judaism was also in conversation with Greek philosophical motifs. Did Judaism and Hellenism "part the ways"? Not to mention the influence of Islam on Rambam especially or the influence of Zoroastrianism on, for example, Messianism. No one and no religion can escape its cultural milieu. However, it should not be discounted that Jews and Christian did, at a certain time point in history, view themselves as distinct from each other.

[@palsyr4307]

I'm very interested in what Assyrian Christians think because the OT calls Assyrians the rod of God's wrath, Jonah was sent to the Assyrians, and Jesus mentions the Men of Nineveh in an interesting way too. How much of ancient Assyrian religion influenced Judaism at some point and Zoroastrianism and how much was the Assyrian religion influenced by Canaanite and Sumerian religion?

[@crhu319]

Yes and once they were separated is when Islam arrived and tried to unite all the traditions. Which it still tries to.

[@carlosasolis]

Do you guys have any study about the Dura Europos Synagogue and Church and how do they spoke to each other?

[@KEDEMChannel]

It is a very interesting subject. We don’t have anything yet, request noted 😊

[@toppanda13]

She cute

[@Anglitimmike]

Why do you use the term Palestinian Talmud and not Jerusalem Talmud?

[@KEDEMChannel]

Both names are commonly used without any political implications. The term in question specifically refers to Byzantine Palaestina Secunda.

[@palsyr4307]

Palestinian is technically the most accurate because as stated, it was written in Byzantine Palestina and not particularly in Jerusalem.

[@crhu319]

PALESTINIAN Talmud is most accurate because Samaritans and other sects outside Jerusalem like the Essenes are very involved.

[@EmilNicolaiePerhinschi]

Judaism and Christianity being separate from the start: then why did the early Church have to spend so much energy to prevent the Christians from using the Jewish baths or from requiring circumcision ?

[@crhu319]

They were not separate even in 4th century. Nor were they designed to be, Paul is creating a form of "2nd Temple Judaism"

[@josemoody1743]

I guess that giving a " Christian " interpretation to some stories in the Talmud is heretical!😅