The TEN MOST OVERRATED PROG BANDS IN HISTORY | Ranked

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[@Hydrocorax]

It can't be denied that in 1973 ELP were overrated in exactly the way you describe. But after nearly half a century of vilification by the press at a level that no other band has been subjected to, I don't see how they can be seen as overrated in 2024. In the eyes of most of the English-speaking world, they're not remembered for their influence on popular music, their virtuosity or their clever, well-crafted compositions, but for being "overblown" and "pretentious." Show me a published article written in the last 45 years that says something nice about ELP without qualifying it. No, I say that today ELP is underrated.

[@aaronhayman8558]

Overrated by the public, but not the critics.

[@spiritof6663]

@@aaronhayman8558 But the critics actually ended up having an influence on the way the public thought of the band. Believe it or not but people actually listened to assholes like Lester Bangs and Robert Christgau. Not that many people today even know who ELP are let alone admit they like them. ELP are *absolutely* underrated in 2024, both commercially and critically. They might have "only" had a run of about four good years but that's actually pretty good for most rock bands, that's just the nature of rock is to have about 3-5 good years and then decline. Which is why I think it's weird that Andy says ELP are overrated because they "only" had a peak period of four years. That's not bad at all and is comparable to Yes and Genesis (although since Andy think those are even more overrated, I suppose he's being consistent, at least).

[@Quinceps]

@@spiritof6663But are there that many critics even paying attention to prog? I don’t think so. It’s often the musicians themselves that come out and say something, often to the disappointment of fans.

[@markmiwurdz2248]

@Hydrocorax. You may already know this. Back in the last century, the New Musical Express were particularly cruel to Emerson, Lake and Palmer. The NME dubbed them “Cumbersome, Fake and Trauma”. However, when the album “Brain Salad Surgery” was released the NME issued a flexi - disc of samples of the album tracks and a specially written track called “Brain Salad Surgery”! I think said track appears on the extended CD version of BSS and mentions the NME in the lyrics! Maybe the band were poking fun back at the NME. Stay safe and well.

[@spiritof6663]

@@Quinceps There are hardly any critics who pay attention to prog *now* , because the genre is now dead and buried thanks to them to begin with (there are other factors that led to the death of prog in the late 70s but critical reception certainly didn't help)! Oh, you do get the occasional critic these days who comes out with the "prog wasn't really all that bad" article but even those are still filled with backhanded insults like the usual epithets "pretentious" and "self-indulgent". But back in the 70s when prog was riding high, of course the critics paid attention, they had to.

[@CountBrass]

I don’t think ELP is overrated. Seems to me they are among the most criticized.

[@Spock105]

They are criticized because they took the shows to a level that became over the top . It became more about the drumkit , the orchestra , the jet , the equipment. It was showing off and as such punk came along.

[@Quinceps]

@@Spock105 It was bombast for the sake of it. That for me is a weakness in any band.

[@Spock105]

@@Quinceps yes it was , and even the music itself was pretty bombast

[@stingfan16ify]

​@@Spock105It was "showing off" because they were good enough to do so. Emerson and Palmer consistently finished first in musical polls on both sides of the Atlantic because they truly were THAT GOOD! It's really that simple.

[@Spock105]

@@stingfan16ify Sure , I know , I grew up in the 70's and also saw at the time those polls . And I have all the albums till Welcome back ... However , when you are 16 years old you look at everything as being new and polls reflect only a certain timeframe. I loved it back then , still have the albums , but I detest the bombast now . Punk was the answer witch I did not understand at the time , but now I do. ( and still don't like with a few exceptions ) As with my wine or beer , my taste changes in music and also how to see through the facades of all those bands. Come to think of it : Genesis was also a number of years on top of the polls as being best live act and they pulled it of by change into pop-prog , became bigger and bigger and did not fade away. Keith committed suicide because he could not cope with the comments on social media that he could not play anymore, and that is really painful and sad. He was with Rick Wakeman & Jon Lord the trio that played those keys the best.

[@olavirannisto3552]

ELP made five excellent albums in 1970-73. Few bands make a longer good series of albums, even if they had been together for decades.

[@martinspencer1618]

They ruined lots with their terrible joke songs. Benny The Bouncer just spoils the mood of the first side.

[@IzunaSlap]

@@martinspencer1618 HAM OR CHEESE!?

[@lemming9984]

@@martinspencer1618 Agree. Also Jeremy Bender, and The Sherriff isn't quite as bad - but getting there!

[@CloseToTheEdge-Prog]

Gentle Giant for me made 8 brilliant albums in a row, Zappa probably made at least 50 and Jethro Tull made 14. But at the end of the day, we like what we like and nobody can tell us what to pick. If any music moves you then that's its job done. I love ELP, even works Vol 1 and 2.

[@crhkrebs]

@@CloseToTheEdge-Prog this idea that “quantity has a quality all of its own” to quote Joe Stalin never made much sense to me. So Hayden wrote 140 symphonies, while Beethoven only wrote 9. So Beethoven is only a 15th as good? Nonsense. But then I am a big Gentle Giant fan.😃

[@MrMaynardWR]

I'm glad you didn't put King Crimson into this category.

[@mubox]

Came for the overating stayed for the British snobbery

[@MarkMay-cr6bv]

Snobbery and arrogance at its finest, which is kind of hard to believe that kind of thing still exists in a country that is rapidly imploding before our very eyes.

[@docpangasinan]

@@MarkMay-cr6bv I hope they will keep Andy in a museum at least.... The last of his kind.

[@apollomemories7399]

@@MarkMay-cr6bv Not even close mate. Not even close. You ain't seen nothing yet.

[@arthurmee]

@@mubox 😁🤣

[@christophernoble289]

I leave the crust on my watercress sandwiches and pour the water for tea right off the boil, just like John Lennon preferred. Then I put the stylus down on ELP's Love Beach.

[@lupcokotevski2907]

Australian classical guitarist John Williams has reputedly the most perfect technique ever seen. His fingering, timing, tone, fluidity, etc are incredible. Still going in his 80's.

[@michaelgarvey7559]

Absolutely The Seville Concert is perfection.

[@williambissell972]

I saw him live in 2005, unbelievable!

[@psbarrow]

And still reading off sheet music in his concerts? I saw Julian Bream once, he played the first half of the concert on guitar, the second half on lute. No sheet music. About a year later I saw Williams and he just sat there the entire time reading off of sheet music while he played.

[@lupcokotevski2907]

@@psbarrow Incredible talent.

[@snowfiresunwind]

@@psbarrow Maybe his memory is not so good as Bream's? Myself, I love them both and they were brilliant as a duo also.

[@arthurmee]

Next, Andy, can we have 'Top 10 favourite overrated jazzrock fusion bands between 1969-1981?'

[@kirkgray6949]

Andy Andy are u deliberately being obtuse….Yes and Genesis….you are probably not getting enough oxygen to your brain…try breathing more..

[@colinburroughs9871]

He'll just put Rush at the top of that list too

[@erikheddergott5514]

@@arthurmee Can we have 20 Underrated Jazzrock Fusion Bands from 1965 to 1985. Or every JazzRock Fusion Band that played and or Recorded in Montreux the Wimbledon and Wembley of JazzRock Fusion?

[@neildobson4389]

PS. Why keep going on about posh boys? So what? The only people who can make great music work in a factory? Or are they even too posh and you have to be in the gutter to make good music. Give it a rest.

[@MarkMay-cr6bv]

It's called British snobbery and it's usually practiced by smug little nancy boys like this one.

[@stevesmith3990]

Agreed, its inverted snobbery.

[@SaintKimbo]

Get over it, it's humour. If you are from the working class, you have to point out that 'posh boys' are either gay, famine, coddled and/or privileged any time you talk about them, lol.

[@edyb2097]

Well, saying that being posh and upper middle-class can help you out in more ways than those who aren't is not an overstatement. Think about Black Sabbath: they all came from poor working-class families and they had to record their first album in two days... They became huge right away, but still the chances they had at the beginning of their career were very limited if you compare them to those of other wealthier musicians...

[@69Kevrod2012]

Will someone think of the "poor" posh boys

[@mattmckeon1688]

Dave Weckl is the most impressive drummer I've seen play in my life. Insane technique, flawless time, can read, improvise and he grooves.

[@vietnguyen4312]

His band is fantastic

[@CraigMahaney]

What's his band?

[@mattmckeon1688]

@@CraigMahaney The Dave Weckl Band. 😃

[@CraigMahaney]

@@mattmckeon1688 thanks

[@willyupshaw]

As a canadian, I thought that the obsession with Rush was just part of a national inferiority complex.

[@Caganissoyeah]

No, that was just you.

[@randyhenderson6166]

Sounds like a personal problem

[@SteveJones379]

8. 10:37 Emerson Lake & Palmer 7. 16:23 Tool 6. 19:24 Marillion 5. 25:59 Genesis 4. 33:40 Yes 3. 41:41 Pink Floyd 2. 45:32 Dream Theater 1. 52:12 Rush (what?!!!)

[@n-Chantreuse]

That's about as far as I got before I started looking for a list.

[@brucewebb1114]

Thanks for saving me an hour and 14 minutes of my life.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Yeah. He makes these manufactured indignance videos to make certain he gets comments.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

I agree with every single one of them but Rush and Floyd.

[@MrCalmao]

Yes? Lmao. They are one if not the most important prog band ever. Also I cannot get his hate or criticismo against Marillion. And definetely they are not overrated by any means

[@TheD4VR0S]

Note: mariilions second album was Fugazi

[@philyeary8809]

@@TheD4VR0S not bad, I laughed

[@TheProgCorner]

Yes? Overrated? Those are fighting words, my friend. Now you’ve really poked the bear!!!!

[@gregarruda112]

Ooooo a prog cat fight.

[@ilabelle1]

A right hook to the jaw and a flurry to the solar plexus!!!OOF!!!😯🥊

[@thezenrunner651]

Greetings salutations respect love.peace in the middle east

[@alexkozik3796]

Time for round 2 of the fake feud between Andy and Scot!

[@daicullinane7746]

"In with the left hook is The Prog Corner he's lobbing Andy Edwards round the gob."

[@juansecar2]

I'll tell ya one thing Geddy Lee can do, that not even Marcus Miller can, maybe Victor Wooten, and that is, singing over those basslines dude, all at the same time. That is quite something, and it aint no easy nor minor thing. Cheers

[@edyb2097]

It doesn't necessarily make their music the best in the world.

[@juansecar2]

@@edyb2097 I agree... 100%. Just the best rock music. Cheers

[@Caganissoyeah]

No bass player does what Geddy does all around. Nobody!

[@ivozanette7010]

Genesis started to fall off the cliff when Steve Hackett left and agreed The Lamb is thier masterpiece

[@coltonbeatty6117]

So sick of hearing that.. or, at least, what is implied in statements like that. Steve Hackett contributed the least of all individual members of Genesis to what makes Genesis music what it is. And his own creativity fanned out pretty quickly after having left.

[@vordman]

I think Nursey Cryme through to The Lamb is the finest run of albums by any band ever. All four are exceptional. If I had to pick one, yes, it would probably be The Lamb.

[@arfshesaid4325]

ya fall of the cliff and drowning in dough, but musically just sad

[@lukaf2393]

Foxtrot-Selling-The Lamb in a row... simply alien! it was their peak and a peak for the whole prog-rock era (obviously among other great bands)

[@lukaf2393]

@@coltonbeatty6117 They began "to fall" earlier indeed, when they produced song to sing aroung a campfire like "Ripples". They reached a peak with the Lamb, it would be impossible for everyone to improve further.... Foxtrot, Selling, The Lamb in a row.... it was enough : )

[@marknovak6498]

I know you hate them but Brothers in Arms is the fifth studio album by the British rock band Dire Straits is notable to have the biggest dynamic range of its recording. It's more along the lines of a classical recording from Telarc or Sony Classical than almost any CD by a contemporary rock/pop band.

[@Carboggg]

@@marknovak6498 Imho, the biggest fault with Dire Straits is the way they chased chart success and the money so quickly after the brilliant Sultans Of Swing became a hit. They went from that to basically becoming an out and out pop band. Fleetwood Mac ended up being a pop band by the 1980's, but at least they were their true selves for a decade with their blues and then soft rock before turning to out and out pop. I love quality pop btw so I'm not having a go at Dire Straits for going pop, just that they sold out far too quickly. I believe Marks brother even quit the band because of that.

[@faulrevere8938]

Great video, Andy…your hair is on point, brother 🔥🙏

[@CasperLCat]

I wonder if Andy’s antipathy to DS is that partly that Knopfler was bringing an Americana aesthetic into British 80s rock, musically, with his more acoustic and country-ish fingerstyle on electric guitar. He can tour with anyone he wants, these days, and in recent years, that’s been Emmylou Harris. And lyrically, his songs like Telegraph Road are very Springsteen-esque, IMO, just without the bombast. The realities of Rust Belt America, in that case. Bruce’s song Tunnel of Love is a simpler version of Mark’s earlier song with the same title; while DS’s Romeo and Juliet is a simpler version of Bruce’s earlier Thunder Road, the quieter beginning part, that is. Compare the resonator guitar riff of R and J, to the piano part under the vocal at the start of TR. I just read that Roy Bittan’s piano riff on R and J was repurposed from his own earlier piano part on Jungleland from Springsteen’s Born to Run. And that’s Bittan on TR, too. ‘Nuff said ?

[@kcewing1]

Who cares...

[@Ethelred77]

I do

[@docpangasinan]

"Fake prog bands"? Is it the bands who call themselves "prog bands", or is it the audience who calls them that? Is it progressive rock - no matter how produced - or is it not? What did musicians think about old not fake prog bands when they were using synthesizers? How is that a criteria for being overrated? I will not comment the rest, because, Andy, there are many of your videos I really love. Always when your background knowledge and experience comes in or this wonderful British humor we all love so much (I'm German, by the way). "The Great Prog Showdown" has become one of my most favorite videos on KZbin. But this ranking really has its limits. Overrated and underrated is never objective, so do it for the clicks, but it's not the best content. Edit: One comment, after all: if Genesis and Yes are overrated as prog bands, then who isn't? What would it take to be a well-known prog band, making progressive rock without doubt, and not being overrated? No "shortcomings"? Please.... Rather sounds like you would like them even more if only you knew them 🤭

[@BenTevikMusic]

Great comment, couldn’t agree more. He just listed 9 of the biggest, genre-defining prog bands of all time…not to mention “all of modern prog” 🙄 Get your click-bait views, Andy

[@adude394]

Well said, my man!

[@martinmees878]

One aspect of Rush that is hugely overlooked is the interplay between Geddy and Neil. Some of the fills played by them together on Farewell to Kings show this very well.

[@cybrkhatru]

Hi Andy - I'm the guy on the Prog Corner video who brought up Tony Williams. Hope all is well :) I agree with you about the "tribalism" issue.. it makes me crazy.

[@JCT1926]

His description of Dream Theater's use of odd time was pretty hilarious

[@Spock105]

So is his Gilmour ' wheee wheee wheee '

[@alisonoconnor8661]

Andy- that's one of your very best and most informative videos yet! I'm a long time subscriber and enjoy your videos, even though you do get carried away at times! But all entertaining stuff just the same. This video is brilliant! Didn't feel the hour or so going by, so into it was I. Well done! Honest intelligent insightful video. Thanks for that Andy. Kevin- Waterford.

[@Moimeme2805]

Totally agree on Barriemore Barlow 👍👍

[@GlennSmith-m2e]

I find Tool boring too.

[@edwardyazinski3858]

Repetitive and taxing. And just a bit full of themselves?

[@thespacealienssmogandgrog4283]

I listened to a Tool song once. All I heard was white noise.

[@docdeens4030]

Total monotony to me

[@Quinceps]

AF, I might add.

[@Quinceps]

@@edwardyazinski3858So full of themselves Maynard once said he wouldn’t go to Latin America because they wouldn’t be understood. And indulgence is a small word when it comes to Tool. Change your sound Maynard, ffs. And that pretentiousness gets transferred to their fans and increased by a factor of 10 🤦🏻

[@tonyyeatropoulos6829]

I typically only ping-pong between 3 other music KZbin hosts, occasionally dropping in just to see what you've been up to. But I have to say, watching this video was absolutely captivating. It is so mesmerizingly honest and revealing, and on many points, surprisingly congruent with my own. Your openness and candor command respect! Fantastic video, Andy!!! I'm subscribing!!!

[@auntcleo1997]

Thanks, Andy! Love listening to these! You could apply a lot of different labels to all of these bands but overrated is one that doesn't fit. Overrated to me means something critics love but of limited influence. None of these bands fit that bill. What is 'Progessive' anyway? Side-long suites? Orchestral arrangements? Time signature meanderings? All of the above? Or, does progressive actually mean moving forward, or better yet, moving forward but also keeping tabs on what's going on around you? To that end, Rush went from "Hey baby, the hour is late" to 2112 in less than 2 years, and then La Villa Strangiato barely 2 years after that. I don't know any other band with that kind of development trajectory, or shall we say "progression?" After that, Rush moved on yet again. Some people didn't go with them, and that's okay.

[@motorpsykler]

You’ve made your point Andy, you’ve proven that you’re qualified, capable of being serious and very knowledgeable. Hopefully you can now bring back the comedy and wit that this American loves you for!

[@barbrodrigues4465]

Absolutely spot on...I really struggle with inexperienced people who base their perspective on just 'feelings' and have a difficult time with any video that can't put things in proper context.

[@johncalvo1743]

I used to be that 16-year-old kid that thought that Rush could do no wrong. I've expanded my horizons drastically since then, although Rush will always be my top dog. All that being said, what made Rush GREAT was that they wrote good SONGS. By that I mean they wrote songs that you could remember. Songs that had HOOKS. Hummability I call it. To me, "Limelight" is one the greatest songs ever written. It has melody, power, complexity, meaning...all packed into less than 5 minutes. Their albums were all different from each other, and each had its own unique sound and personality. You can listen to any Rush song and pinpoint from which album it is just by its sound. And those that criticize Geddy's singing are just sticking to an old cliche. Geddy's singing had vastly improved through the years, up until Father Time took his voice. The Geddy of "Caress of Steel" is totally different from the Geddy of "Counterparts". A band like Dream Theatre, who undoubtedly are virtuosos, didn't have that. I have always respected virtuosity. But a song has to have more than just chops. Who wants to listen to 10 minutes of musical masturbation? It gets old after a few listens. The same with individual shredders, like Malmsteen. Malmsteen is a great guitarist, but I'll take a guy like Vito Bratta, who constructed great SONGS, while being a virtuosic at the same time. Even some of Yes' music was just pure musical semen cobbled and stitched together like Frankenstein's monster.

[@apollomemories7399]

Yet, Rush will always be your top dog. Close the door when you leave.

[@eugenemcgovern7209]

Andy, I love most of those bands, but I totally get where your coming from, and have no issue with your thoughts on these bands. I think why most people get fired up over videos like this is, they like what they like and when someone tells them it is overrated or not good, they feel like someone is telling them they have bad taste. I have always believed Jazz and Jazz fusion artists are the better musicians, but I don't necessarily enjoy listening to most of them. I like other things more, doesn't make what I like better, it is just what I like. I really laughed when you were doing the Dream Theater bit and trying to vocalize how they sound, that was pretty good and pretty funny.

[@kdakan]

ELP has different aesthetics than your 'English' aesthetics, they have romantic and modern classical, jazz, Monk, Bartok, country folk, and what else, and they did all their great stuff as a live trio, without studio gimmics, studio fx and loads of bounced tracks. To me they are the greatest prog band. Comparing a prog band to jazz fusion bands doesn't make sense, they are idiomatically different, you can't get the same taste from these different music genres.

[@jamesbrand3652]

Fair enough Andy. Jazz, jazzrock or jazz fusion. I could critique the flaws in that music and players compared to classical musicians and composers. Its obvious you dont know anything about classical music and fall into the trap that prog fans do. You think jazz is the at the top of the food chain. Sorry to disapoint you it isn't.

[@bengalinsky4300]

Oscar Peterson wants a word….

[@flazjsg]

He was no Mozart, Bach or dozens of others in terms of compositions..​@@bengalinsky4300

[@richardsinger01]

Depends what you value in music. Musicians understand this.

[@smitlag]

Good review Andy. I'd like to point out an exception to the comparison between Keith Emerson and pianists such as Corea, Zawinul, Hancock or any major classical artist. Keith played at a time when keyboardist used several keyboards more due to the limitations of the sounds they made. For example back then, if you wanted an organ sound you needed an organ. All of the electric pianos sounded different from each other, if you wanted harpsichord or clavinet sounds, you needed a Hohner clavinet. So you could easily occupy a large section of mixer space just in the sheer number of keyboards one needed to finish the sound pallet. Now Keith stood while playing. This required all kinds of stretching and reaching from one keyboard to another. The independence of his hands is what impressed me about Keith. Keith used his left hand frequently as a lead playing hand while doing something completely different with his right. Few keyboardists today have the same chops in both of their hands. Of course, classical and jazz is different, but the players are usually seated. This affords them correct playing posture. Chick Corea typically sat behind his keyboard stack with his most used keyboards right in front of him. To his left, he had his other stack, but they were used less often. The same goes for many others. Tony Banks had a huge square arrangement of his keyboards. But he too played seated. As you surely know, each instrument requires correct physical habits to produce optimal sound. Keith threw all that to the wind. Now you are correct that Keith did not have the polish to his technique classical players do. At times in shows, he was actually sloppy. But given that he was largely self-taught and the way he played, he probably did some things the better jazz pianists couldn't have done. Keith's later hand tendon problems were probably a testimony to his often poor playing position. Not to mention his stage antics like stabbing his organ or trying to manipulate patches on that behemoth of a modular Moog. So, he paid a price for his showmanship

[@Loskov-my3xw]

Zawinul is an odd one to mention really alongside those others. He wasn't a big chops guy - even compared to many rock players, and was much more of a textural player. Of course his harmonic knowledge was above plenty of those with more outright playing technique, though I always thought he had a strong tendency towards lightweight cheese in his composing style.

[@smitlag]

@@Loskov-my3xw I'd agree with that. I always heard more in his overall compositions than in his outright soloing.

[@apparaoapparao]

Andy as the Joker Look what I did to this middle aged community with a few over rated drummer comments and a couple of Peart jokes. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, ABBA were secretly funky, or a truckload of Simply Red albums will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old Prog drummer is overrated, well then everyone loses their minds!

[@MrStrawberry86]

This is my first Andy Edwards video and I just had to skip forward to hear what he said about rush as they are my personal favourite band of all time. I was presently surprised to hear you weren't really knocking them as a band and just gave a fair assessment on where they stand in the history of rock music and how they are great musicans in the comparatively narrow sphere of rock but nowhere near the level of mind blowing virtusity of jazz fushion players. I mostly agree on what you said. One thing you failed to mention though was music and art is all about how a person connects to music and forming you're own personal subjective experience with music and songs and things can mean different things to people at different stages at their life. One group of musicians being far better players than another group of musicians doesn't mean much in terms of how people connect to songs. People can connect to simpler rock songs and have a much deeper and life enriching experience with rock than they can to jazz fusion if that is their taste and that's entirely fair and justified. Playing at a higher technical skill doesn't mean better. I think the ideal is to try and appreciate both. Also I'd say Rush's run of truly great albums went up until power windows, with that album being as brilliant as anything they have ever done

[@Loskov-my3xw]

fusion was mostly a dead end genre by the '80s. The avant-garde of jazz and jazz-rock went elsewhere.

[@henrycrinkle821]

'Posh boys fiddling around with synthesisers no-one else could afford'.

[@nealandrus6666]

Best line of the video !

[@kerryclinton4467]

I know you don't like Marillion, but your dislike seems to cloud your judgement. Marillion are hardly known in the UK let alone the wider world, so I don't know how you can say they are overrated. The total number of KZbin subscribers to their channel is currently only 114k; this compares to Yes which have 392k subscribers and Pink Floyd which have 4.2 million subscribers.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Back in the day the sold out arenas and had tons of hit records. Their following is very loyal.

[@neshod6415]

They are not overrated mate ...Who cares what Andy thinks: Like to listen to him though....

[@timelkins3537]

I believe Mike Portnoy said the reason there aren’t very many girls at their concerts is because of the fear brought on by the large bulges in their trousers. 😂

[@Wayner71]

Dream Theater is the most overrated band here. I like none of their material. Cheers.

[@chegevara8896]

pink flpyd is worst prog band ever, dt is most underrated

[@dumbguydepot304]

Ok, I've finally heard enough and I finally clicked the Subscribe button. I finally heard enough to realize you're NOT just a click baiter trying for clicks and views. So you won me over finally! *Smash* (The Subcribe button) I totally understand all of our choices even though I'd not have a few on there. But your arguments are excellent and they make total sense even if they ruffle feathers.

[@theworldaccordingto4555]

I think it was John Peel who said, about Prog-Rock, (I'm paraphrasing here), "I knew Progressive Rock was over with when I was at a gig and the crowd were applauding the lighting changes." John wasn't always a big fan of prog (and that's putting it mildly) Me on the other hand, well I love a lot of Prog, seen a lot of Progtastic bands live, got the albums & the t-shirts etc. But as Peel said, there was a lot of bollocks in prog-rock music but, you weren't allowed to say so.

[@leddygee1896]

You didn't mention the first UK album with Bruford, Wetton, Holdsworth, & Jobson. Perfection. One of my personal favorites of all time.

[@positivelivingmusic5497]

I would never think of being stranded on a desert island without UK's first album.

[@goport]

Your Gilmour impression is spot on

[@amasvodka]

The term "progressive rock" was intended to describe bands that challenge the boundaries of rock music. The whole Rush school of technical radio rock, which includes bands like Dream Theater, is to me less progressive than your average death metal band, so those are the ones I personally think are the most overrated.

[@grayjohn6332]

Esoteric are an incredible progressive funeral doom band.

[@philyeary8809]

Opeth's varied output kills many metal and prog, yet reaffirms your statements on metal.

[@amasvodka]

@@grayjohn6332 Esoteric are incredible. I would love to hear Andy’s opinion on them.

[@willywonka7812]

Are CAN a prog band?

[@MarkMay-cr6bv]

Death meal is a giant joke.

[@marknovak6498]

I have heard the sampled bass drum sound that seems identical across the music industry.

[@aliensporebomb]

Triggers.

[@southsidesky]

Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge, Topographic Oceans, Relayer, Going for the One, ....................... who cares what else they have done...................... Definitely the BEST.

[@LanceRED58]

Hey Andy I really enjoyed this video , I think with Yes after Going For The One , I kept buying their albums , I wanted to like the albums that followed , but not that much !

[@DavidJames-p9f]

To say that ELP, for example are an overrated Prog band because they weren't virtuosos like some Jazz Fusion players doesn't make sense because ELP never claimed to be Jazz Fusion musicians. It's like saying that Lennon and McCartney were overrated as composers because they couldn't write a fugue as well as Bach.

[@thespacealienssmogandgrog4283]

Jazz fusion chops are apparently Andy's only criteria for what makes a band or a musician great. lol. Imo, jazz fusion has not aged well. It's very trapped in a time and place.

[@Some_Cat_]

Great point. It's the quality of output in a musician's particular field that counts and not what they can potentially do in someone else's.

[@edwardyazinski3858]

@@DavidJames-p9f songs are what counts songs. And for me that most times includes food lyrics. While i do love instrumentals, and love jazz, my love for jazz is really stuck in the past. So, well placed instrumentals with great songs, with great or at least good relatable lyrics. And great vocalists. Phil Moog of UFO was always better than the hordes of screeching flouncers and braying heavy metal clones. Dylan knows how to convey a lyric. Andy has never been one to lean in the lyrical import in music hence his greater fondness for fusion I think. We all have our moments in late youth that give us our musical foundations and I think based in his explanations his growth was based on an almost competitive aspect of musical quality ie, faster, more complicated equated to more badass and better. Akin to teens digging aggressive sounding heavy metal and all the bombast that goes with it.

[@petervandolah5322]

Irrelevant and weak point ...

[@SaintKimbo]

You have completely missed the point. Andy was NOT saying anyone was overrated because they are not virtuoso's, he was being pragmatic. He was speaking about tunnel visioned fans who believe that their 'Guys' ARE virtuosos, without justifying that belief with an objective reference. More a commentary about the perils of blind faith. which was his point.

[@hartmutpeter215]

The first time i listened to Joe Pass i thought holy moly what is he doing .I couldn't believe it . Unbelievable Jazz chords paired with virtuosity. That is guitar playing at it's best. You are absolutely right . This puts all the supergroups into perspective. Certainly we love them and that's okay. Many bands are overrated but they have made our lives more beautiful and that's what it's all about in the end. Your performance is outstanding again. I'm digging it so much.

[@SaintKimbo]

Agreed, Joe pass is an absolute legend, his 'Hot Licks' tutorial video 'Blue side of jazz', is the all time best guitar teaching video, being a little 'under the weather' just makes it funnier.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGbagJefoNWFq5o .

[@blb14cp]

I agree with you that the best Yes is now Jon Anderson+Band of Geeks! Too bad that they only tour in the US, I'd love to see them in Europe.

[@dbriddie9525]

The problem with Yes is that when Jon left, they replaced him with a clone, who openly imitated Jon and Yes effectively became a cover band.

[@jamesbrand3652]

😂😂😂 really. Rehashing 50 year old music.

[@WalterSobchak1000]

the best Yes had Trevor on vocals

[@deansusec8745]

As a canadian, I can tell you this. Rush could tour at any time at all and everybody would go. And it is the ONLY concert I would go see that had 50% women. NOBODY else ever did, Van Halen, Queen , Deep Purple, 80% men

[@Caganissoyeah]

I agree with the first part of your statement but you're totally wrong after that. Those other bands you mentioned ALWAYS had women at their shows. Rush never did until much later.

[@rickmcinnis3820]

Jazz fusion is some of the most uninteresting music ever made. There are notable exceptions but then there always are. If technical skills are all that matters then it is made for you but the phrase: "much ado about nothing" applies here. Neither pig nor pigeon.

[@martinspencer1618]

Yep: Return to Forever are aptly named.

[@colinburroughs9871]

or, no it's not

[@flazjsg]

If you don't have great ears, you won't get it or appreciate it. Most music fans do not have great ears. It's just a fact. Most people are by definition average. A lot are even somewhat tone-deaf. Not saying you are, but a lot are. Don't forget that.

[@dtltmtgt]

A serious video, definitely a few things tribal fans should hear about their well-loved bands. I would be interested to hear whether you have any exceptions to the modern prog albums that you would say any fall outside your "perfection-problem".

[@edcorneau7346]

I've always, always thought that the loudness wars led to fatigued ears which led to people listening to less music (I have some CD's that are unlistenable after a couple of songs) which helped accelerate the collapse of music as an enjoyable, pleasurable experience. But if I go put on some Steely Dan, early 80's Judas Priest, and many other pre-loudness war CD's it's a heavenly experience in comparison.

[@AstralTraveler227]

Most bands including the Beatles have about 5 really good years that define them. The problem is, not knowing when to quit and move on.

[@JohnnyRecently]

I agree with everything Andy says about the bands. However, tribalism isn't bad. It's a result of Darwinian Evolution...Mother Nature doesn't make mistakes. Tribalism is family at large. What is wrong with caring about your family? That said, band tribalism is the love of family genes projected on your favorite bands. Maybe we misplace our loyalties?

[@lupcokotevski2907]

Its when you think your tribe is correct about everything and others should be shut up, it becomes a problem. Like all tyrants in human history.

[@davidbrown1914]

Pink Floyd, Yes, Rush, and Eloy are excellent.

[@richard127gm]

I really like Black Moon.

[@KanakarisGeorge]

ELP overrated ? Any band with Keith Emerson cannot be overrated , and certainly not by a drummer.

[@2b1onutube]

Today you where pretty much spot on. I am born in 61 so a decade older or so. I am a huge fan of Yes but have no problem understanding and even buy into your argument about their output. Dream Theater and simular bands lack soul and do not give me anything. Keep up rhe good work and keep om rockin’

[@piktormusic2538]

Regarding how we compared the musicians that we loved when we were younger with jazz players that we discovered later: When I saw my beloved Keith Emerson appear on television with Oscar Peterson, I had an “oh shit” moment. Oscar was actually going easy on Keith. To be fair, Keith was great at the things that he did early on in his career and Oscar never once stabbed a piano with a knife.

[@PaulMcGarry-bo3jg]

Agreed, but KE has stated that he was very nervous performing on the OP show.

[@girthbloodstool339]

Gabriel leaves after The Lamb tour in late spring of 1975.

[@jdmresearch]

Technically, yes. But he gave his resignation notice by the end of 1974, and he completed his last concert tour with Genesis in mid-1975.

[@derekthompson1759]

My blood pressure is roughly 124/ 72 which is good for a 67 bloke. Genesis at No5 - I had to get my meter out to check the Systolic. However once I resumed normal service pressures, I thought you know what - Andy may just have a point. If they had disbanded after Steve Hackett left or called themselves the Phil Collins Band, then that body of work up to and including Wind and Wuthering would have made them the best prog band ever and no way would they appear on the list. Great video Andy. BP is now fine

[@ColdGrayMorning]

And nothing new - one more Marillion hate and Rush for more clicks

[@eightrodway]

Props for appreciating Joni. She's one of the few actual geniuses of the rock era.

[@lupcokotevski2907]

Great video, Andy. Although I would argue that Frank Zappa is dull ( after only 12 albums which was enough), Joni Mitchell is great but overrated, and that Van Morrison is a virtuoso songwriter and singer.

[@rogerdavis3454]

Another great video, Andy. Your comments about Yes are spot on. I love the band, but so many of its lyrics are impenetrable.

[@solinvictus6587]

I'm a huge Gentle Giant fan and never unterstood why so many people find their music difficult. Unlike many of the more popular prog bands they did not write 10-20 minute long songs, and their music is very melodic. Not simple, not dumb but melodic.

[@sammyc3696]

ok but they're not great melodies...

[@grahamnunn8998]

I came late to Gentle Giant but so glad I did. If you want to see genuine, superhuman musicianship watch old live videos! They also had humour and great compositional chops.

[@crhkrebs]

@@sammyc3696 but they are great melodies, in the same way Baroque music is. This was their their main influence. Even a ballad like “Aspirations” is breathtakingly beautiful and melodic.

[@solinvictus6587]

@@sammyc3696 :)

[@theyetidude]

I'd say 'name ten prog bands' is enough of a challenge...

[@MisterWondrous]

I largely agree with ludibund and risible assessment, although I would suggest that "Selling England" is Genesis' "Close to that Edge" (Cocktail lounge version) magnum opus, since "Seconds Out" proved the studio version of Supper to be rather wooden and cobbled by comparison. I would suspect that had "Selling England" been your first taste, you would have found their previous albums lacking, while evolvingly brilliant. Having lucked into a concurrence of formative years with the height of prog creations, what followed in rock world would have been a matter of settling, and so ears gravitate toward Jazz Fusion, ECM jazz, Nonesuch world and contemporary classical, electronica, then new age, minimalism and such...with some new wave, Byrne and Gabriel peppered in. Jon is Yes, smack on, and I like to think that my suggestion to him once of playing with Band Geeks, back when I was paying 50/mo to be his online chum, was part of the reason it happened. They earned it. I hope the girl is with them too. ELP, Yes, Floyd, ran out of creative gas, it seemed, though Fripp is probably still creating anew. He, Jon and Peter, should get Annie and have a hootin' Annie. By the time Rush came along, they would have had to compete with the likes of Keith Jarrett, RTF, Subotnick, Cage, Coltrane, Elliott Carter, George Crumb, Xenakis, Tomita, John of Gaunt, and The Runcible One...as well as and equal to other grown-up musick that became the refuge for early progressive ears of yesteryears, craving undinal siren songs to wash away the sirens and ambulancia of post-post-modern existence. I remember Tom Sawyer from the radio, and was glad someone was doing proggy things. My assumption has always been that they had a first rate marketing agency.

[@nickmannion3879]

I think John Peel said ELP are just a big waste of electricity....

[@Owlstretchingtime78]

And the guy was bang on. He saw them at The Isle Of White and proclaimed 'If this is the future of rock, then you can count me out'.

[@grayjohn6332]

Remind of John peels favourite song!

[@Owlstretchingtime78]

@@grayjohn6332 The Undertones 'Teenage Kicks'.

[@grayjohn6332]

@@Owlstretchingtime78 and it's just a bit boring. I would rather listen to ELP.

[@Owlstretchingtime78]

@@grayjohn6332 🦻

[@ilabelle1]

Brilliant Andy. You are absolutely right. Looking at bands you love in the harsh morning light and being able to see their shortcomings, it's a sign that you are a fan. I find music is a lot like people. Even in the people we love and cherish the most, we notice the things that are not as endearing. Do we abandon them? Of course not. The quirks sometimes reinforce our love even more. Besides all this talk of who is better than who and blah, blah, blah is silly. Music people tend to get a little uptight sometimes. It's just music, I know it does different things to us but if your favourite thing is a 6th generation tape of a Britney Spears album that was copied off the radio does miraculous things to and for you then that will pummel anything Chick Corea has done. It's all so subjective and there is no such thing as over or underrated anything really. Listening to somebody bang two rocks together is better than no music at all.

[@neshod6415]

King Crimson is the most overrated band of all time ....

[@fuzzydunlop1988]

I'm basically a fan of all those bands, but the fans can be very annoying. You're dead right. Ha

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Who cares if DAWs can fix imperfections in playing??!

[@Vaggelis68]

Rush, Genesis, Marillion, Yes, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater ...OVERRATED????? Ohhh thank you Andy for entertaining me!!! I really love you!! You are the BEST comedian in the world!!!

[@irena7777777]

It’s getting boring tbh

[@Owlstretchingtime78]

​@@irena7777777Ditto. Nothing but a subjective mess.

[@Owlstretchingtime78]

'The best comedian? Give me a bleeding break, and get a room while you're at it!

[@Caganissoyeah]

Haha! Exactly. Those are some of the greatest bands of all time! He's got a lot of time on his hands. Apparently no one hires him anymore.

[@interstellardave]

I think most fans aren’t musicians so we really don’t know what great technical musicianship is. If it sounds hard to us, we tend to think it must be but it’s not necessarily the case. Plus most of us don’t listen to everything anyway, in order to know who’s doing what. So we really like the songs some of these bands come up with and, because of that, we think they are better players than another group whose music we don’t care for. TLDR: we conflate subjective personal preference in music with objective quality of musicianship.

[@minsterhill]

I was on the train till Genesis came up

[@lupcokotevski2907]

Can't you make a counter argument. Its all fun debate and analysis and Andy's honest opinion free from any malice.

[@geographyinaction7814]

One person's choice of who or what is over/underrated, is not an attack on the who or what. The classification is based on the inordinate amount of praise heaped on the 'who or what' by many people who simply are not open to discourse concerning said 'who or what'.

[@gregorygreene1940]

I'm a huge ELP fan but even I know that it was a short run and while those 5 albums were brilliant, even they had moments in them where my mind is wandering and saying what the hell were they thinking. To be fair, it's not them in particular, it's the whole progressive genre. And if I'm really being fair it's all virtuoso musicians. Jazz, fusion, prog, whatever, they all just seem to lose focus and indulge in noodling as you called it in another video. It's why I can always listen to the album Fragile but it seems like a chore to me to get in the mood for Relayer or Close to the Edge. I think as I have gotten older with a decreasing attention span I've come to love the more concise albums. Taking it a step further, I find myself listening to songs more and more over entire albums. Example, I was listening to Sgt Pepper this week and after about 7-8 minutes in, I just skip to A Day in the Life. I love that song and it's all I wanted to be honest. Anyways, my 2 cents. Always interesting to hear your lists.

[@eggboy-uk]

Really like closing comments. I took a friend to see John McLaughlin's Fourth Dimension when they played the Barbican some months ago. Part way through as we sat amazed at the stuff these guys were producing my friend turned to me and said "Jeez, these guys just piss all over the rockers" Of course, he is right - in my opinion. He then came with me to see Shakti about 12 months later

[@Darrylizer1]

Yeah Andy I totally agree with you re ELP. After the triple live album (which I love despite the sound) they were never anything more than either tolerable or disappointing. They were done.

[@bookhouseboy280]

ELPowell was a successful '80s updating. If Palmer had returned, it would've been bigger news and maybe worked out for them.

[@PaulMcGarry-bo3jg]

But got a number two hit single in the UK......

[@apollomemories7399]

I think Dream Theatre and Marillion shouldn't be here, but over in the Worst Prog Bands section.

[@chegevara8896]

pink floyd is worst prog-bandof all time, not Great Dream Theater

[@coosoorlog]

When are we getting the 10 completely unknown but worth checking out folk-fusion grindcore bands?

[@glerp10000000000]

When there are more than two.

[@u.v.s.5583]

@@glerp10000000000 And when among the two is at least one not overrated :D

[@CloseToTheEdge-Prog]

I can't really disagree with you. All overrated, I love most of them but Zappa would blow them all away as he was on a different level.

[@AxelRamone-v5s]

Have you ever said anything about Magnum? They are from 'down your way'

[@philjm3103]

Absolutely love a slice of Magnum....saw 'em at the Reading Rock Festival in 1980....brilliant!

[@grahamnunn8998]

We drove to their "farewell" gig in Wolverhampton then the Hard Rain debut a year later from Sussex. We went to the same Indian restaurant both times. Talking to the staff (all pure Midlands) they said, "ere, you've come a long way for a crry". Never not felt welcome in the Midlands, the truly multicultural centre of the UK.

[@BrainiacFingers]

When you got to Pink Floyd, I kind of hoped you would do the Dave Gilmore guitar solo impersonation, and you did. So thanks for putting in a wee bit of comedy even though you were being serious 😂. Great video.

[@Quinceps]

Andy Edwards didn’t want to name the bands in number 10? Let’s do ourselves a favor and name them down here. I’ll start with VOLA.

[@user-lq9mw1sb8d]

Porcupine Tree

[@Quinceps]

@@user-lq9mw1sb8d These are bands that I don’t even consider true prog rock acts! They’re some kind of stale reenactments, full of tropes, lazily filtered tropes.

[@crhkrebs]

@@user-lq9mw1sb8d you may not like PT, and that is totally fine. But to be fair, none of the complaints that Andy puts forth at the beginning of the video actually apply to the band. Just watch their live videos for confirmation.

[@grahamkey8496]

VOLA are incredible

[@Quinceps]

@@grahamkey8496 You’re exactly doing that: overrating.

[@edyb2097]

Finally someone who considers "Nursery Cryme" Genesis best album. I could easily say that I'm not much of a Genesis fan, I'm more of a "Nursery Cryme" fan. Tool? I admit I love Tool, but I also think they're overrated. I love that style because it's some kind of alternative rock's take on prog and there are quite a few things in Tool's music which are inspired by Soundgarden and Jane's Addiction (two bands that I love deeply), but I also see why the criticism towards them comes from.

[@ashwar3639]

Interesting take on Rush being an "after the fact" band, it is somewhat true when looking at history. They tried to take what Genesis and Yes were doing but beef it up with more of the rock fury of Zeppelin. I think Rush's real genius was what you touched on a bit....they ditched the Dungeons and Dragons stuff and incorporated more modern and relevant musical styles into the dinosaur prog sound, and created a masterpiece synergy in the late 70's and thru the 80's. They made prog tuneful and listenable without losing the musicianship and creativity. Lifeson particularly created a vastly underrated guitar approach that was copied by many. Plus, Rush just wrote many timeless songs versus most of the other Prog bands. 100% agree on Dream Theater, its just Nintendo music for incels, with awful broadway singing and the stiffest, most lesson book sounding playing ever. They took all the good elements of Rush and tossed them aside while exaggerating the annoying elements to the point of parody. Pink Floyd, I agree. None of them are truly amazing players (Gilmour plays w a lot of emotion and soul though, by far the best musician in that band), and they quite often come across as boomer elevator music honestly. They put me to sleep half the time.

[@Loskov-my3xw]

I actually think songwriting was a weakness for Rush compared to many prog bands. Very few memorable melodies to me compared to the prog bands they were most influenced by...Genesis, Yes.

[@misterjones2u]

I transitioned from Judas Priest to Rush, and then abandoned them at Signals, totally with you on that.

[@eggboy-uk]

Glad you highlighted ELP. There is a video on KZbin of Keith Emerson playing Honky Tonk Piano Blues with Oscar Peterson. Oscar has fantastic touch and swing to go with his virtuosity, his playing is relaxed and easy. In comparison Keith sounds like he gets faster and faster as he plays, he gets ahead of the beat, it seems a struggle and lacks touch and swing. In some ways it is a bit embarassing...

[@PaulPadoan]

Oscar were one of the best pianists ever.

[@Loskov-my3xw]

The dual band thing wasn't very rehearsed sounding, and Keith was mainly just playing the head of the tune, while Peterson took the solos. Emerson also said he was a nervous wreck playing along with one of his heroes. That said, few could match chops with Peterson; i'm sure Emerson would be the first to concede that he wasn't one of them

[@halcyon289]

Great to hear you acknowledge the mighty Barriemore Barlow . And yes , he could kick Peart's arse all over the place .

[@davidcranch7890]

Has any band had a better roster if drummers, permanent and guests than Tull ? Clive Bunker, Barrie Barlow, Mark Craney, Gerry Conway, Paul Burgess, Doane Perry, Phil Collins, Mark Mondesir, Dave Mattacks, Scott Hammond. All different, all brilliant.

[@willywonka7812]

Best prog band was CAN. Liebezeit and Karoli were gods

[@colinburroughs9871]

weirdo hipster drug music, where repetition is seen as a hallmark of taste. It's largely whatever. The drummer had a thing though I suppose, but it's not like any of it comes to mind beyond a guy yelling "dying butterfly!". Art!

[@yuriykorotkevych8838]

IQ were worse musicians than Marillion in 83...85. Both progressed a lot as musicians since then. Both have they brilliant moments (which are many) and their dull moments (which are many as well). Marillion are just not your thing, Andy, and that's fine. All of us have the things that just aren't ours. That doesn't make them objectively bad or mediocre and not worth attention they get.

[@grayjohn6332]

Marillion are an excellent band.

[@erikheddergott5514]

Since you are a Musician who can talk about Music I really preferred the Opposite: The Most Underrated xxx and yyy. I might never be able to prove it, but over the long Haul you might attract more People to good Music and your Channel!

[@aaronhayman8558]

He does plenty of videos on that kind of thing as well...

[@erikheddergott5514]

He does, but I want a Ratio of 10 to 1. It is much more interesting to hear about Stuff I do not know and being told to listen to it, then hearing somebody to be as or even more critical than I am. I am already to critical, so everybody who is more critical than I am is to critical. No actually in Art Blood is Ketchup, so sometimes you utter a bit of Disdain, but to be directed to Stuff I don‘t know gives me more.

[@Loskov-my3xw]

@@erikheddergott5514 Andy doesn't really have the depth of knowledge of progressive rock to do that more than he's already done. He's basically a - knows the big names well, and quite a lot of the second-tier bands (second tier commercially, not artistically) but hasn't listened to them much - guy. Doesn't seem to know much about the deeper british progressive scene of the late 60s-70s, which had many commercial flop but really/good to great one/two album bands i've never seen him mention, far less all of the international scenes. You would have better luck with jazz fusion.

[@erikheddergott5514]

@@Loskov-my3xw going through his Catalog of Videos, he reveals him selves that his Expertise in JazzRock Fusion is bigger than in Progrock. In my Experience a „Quarter-Generation“ (means 5 to 7 Year Age Gap) can lead to quite a different Perspective on the subgroupings of Rockstyles from Chuck Berry on to Nirvana. I had a different Perspective than lots of People who were born around 1955 and others born around 1967. A very much younger Generation that grew up with KZbin has nowadays Tools to know about Rockmusic we Linernotes and NME, Rolling Stone and Melody Maker Readers never had. In the 90ties the Knowledge of People like Janis Joplin vanished among Teenagers, nowadays Teens now about Love, a Band that I had to Discover by the Hendrix Connection. Progrock was in the 70ties a Movement in all European Countries even in the Eastern Block behind the Iron Curton. Fusing European Court Music (aka Classical) with Rock was as Common as the Fusions with Eastern Music and Jazz. Since singing Rock Music in Non-English Language was only developing in the 70ties Tunes with long Non-Vocal stretches was quite common. Many of these Bands never recorded their Stuff professionally. Andy can talk about Music generally, that is his forte. If he is interested in the Merger of Classical Music with Rock he has to search for Continental European and Scandinavian Bands to. The same goes for Jazzrock: In Japan JazzRock was already a Thing in 1968, as well as in Germany and again in Scandinavia. Great Britain and the USA had an already well established Pop Music Recording and Distributing Industry that back then invested much more Money in their „Underground“ than the Rest of the World where all these „Hippies and Rockers“ had to fund themselves much more to get recorded. With „Underrated“ I also mean these Musicians one has heard of but has not yet heard. And there are plenty.

[@Stonky77]

As soon as I saw the title I knew Marillion would be on it.

[@billyhodges7194]

What an interesting video.... Love your content even if i like certain bands.... I was kind of expecting Rush.... I am Rush inked and proud of it but i get your points.... I think farewell through to power windows is flawless, plus i really like FBN and COS and CA but they have to be commended for not ploughing the same furrow after the previous album worked.... I don't believe I've even listened to test for echo but that certain legacy that is considered classic Rush will always stand the test of time and i will back signals, grace and power forever, but , yes , andy , i get your point

[@DaveChan365]

It's ok, you can skip Test for Echo, but Counterparts is awesome, and their 21st century albums, Vapor Trails and Snakes and Arrows, have a lot to dig into.

[@billyhodges7194]

@@DaveChan365 hey , sir.... Yea I like counterparts, snakes.... and especially CA but as I said I consider AFTK through to PW flawless

[@rocketshiptoaltair]

My go to for keeping my head out of the tribal mentality is looking back at the career of Pat Metheny and the PMG. When I was 21 listening to Offramp I didn't think it could get any better. Of course Pat has proved me wrong album after album after album. I'll be elitist and defend my lifelong commitment to Pat's work but I will listen to a track like The Epic and realise that what I thought was an incredible track actually has some compositional flaws or that if Pat and Lyle had written it ten years later it would have either been discarded or been on a whole new level. I mainly listen to the old Prog bands for nostalgic reasons, not to be in awe of them. I still respect the albums but they aren't giants to me anymore. Someone once told me Made In Japan ain't all that. I tend to agree now but back in the day it was fixed to the turntable and I lived my life according to those performances.

[@rickmcinnis3820]

Is this intended for children? Captain Obvious has some serious competition. I bet he thinks THOTCH are overrated, too.

[@daicullinane7746]

Brian Pern is a genius.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

The origin of the current programmed virtuosity was three things: insistence by producers on a clock like drumming; click tracks and sequencers in synths. Simulated amps don't bother me because they give more creative choices. ELP-one thought: Keith was proud that he never used a sequencer. Also, Palmer, not Emerson, recommended the classical music ELP covered. Keith caught Oscar Peterson's attention. Palmer could match the drummers you mentioned, and I saw all the drummers you mentioned. He is definitely in the Cobham Bruford league. There are better drummers, but Palmer was very creative. By the way, there were more creative and virtuosic drummers who appeared before jazz fusion appeared in its fully formed state-Michael Giles, Art Tripp, Brian Davison, the astounding Jon Hiseman, for example. Alphonse Mouzon was with Weather Report and McCoy Tyner before joining the Eleventh House. From a personal perspective, the thing that turned me off a lot of fusion was the insistence on funk. That was rooted in Cobham-great drummer, but I had been through a ton of funk drummers by then and wasn't thrilled by how often it was used as a critical element of the vocabulary. Cobham also had the gall to criticize Tony Williams for not listening to the other members of the band. Cobham is a sharp guy; can't he recognize interplay? An astonishing statement... Personally, while I respect Steve Gadd, I never found his drumming exciting or incredibly interesting. Everyone is entitled to his or her tastes, but MO never really evolved past Inner Mounting Flame either. (McLaughlin did evolve with Shakti, though!). But if you are going to apply a pattern diagnosis, ELP evolved more between the first four albums than MO did during its history. That seems to be a shallow evaluation criterion. Again, I am not arguing that ELP was better than fusion groups, but in their own way, ELP was fusion (as were the Nice, even moreso) and should not be dismissed so quickly. Things like Tarkus were huge leaps forward for rock, harmonically. I can't ignore that.

[@dbriddie9525]

Aah Andy I get you. But you don't get that these "better", more technically gifted musicians produce obtuse, boring mismatches of jazz fusion music that the vast majority of non nerds dislike and that's why they are not as popular. Your preferred guitarists like Houldsworth is a hundreds times better musician that Steve Hackett, but has never produced a feel in his output that makes Hackett "better". Like getting bored watching a guitar shredder, when Brian May openly admits he cant shred, but give me one of his feely melodic solos anytime compared to Via, Satriani or Malmsteen . Stop getting hung up on virtuosity snobness........... Please next, The most overrated music Genre, easy no 1 Jazz fusion !!!! 5 or 6 virtuoso players, all playing different songs at the same time, all roughly in the same key but playing in different time.

[@mirageviral4875]

Good points. Technicality and virtuosity get dry and boring after a while. Jazz rock is full of cliches and formulas as any other genre. They just want to concentrate on the music period when progressive rockers brought in other elements in to please their fans (and sell more). They put in more feeling also (to say the least). I'm a post-punk guy, had my jazz years too, went all in on free jazz at some point so I am very open minded. I keep an eye on metal also, the most extreme stuff as well, I love explosions of rage as well as subtle lyricism, all good material is enjoyable.

[@thespacealienssmogandgrog4283]

Exactly. Holdsworth does have a feel though. And that feel is Kenny G with weird chords.

[@hulldanfan]

Bringing 'Emotion' into this argument is fundamentally flawed because emotion is subjective. It's not for anyone else to determine what I find emotive. Popularity is the same. The charts are full of 3 chord , computer written songs with synthetic instruments and auto-tuned vocals that sell millions of units. That cannot be the arbiter of quality or taste.

[@mirageviral4875]

I had forgotten how music nerds are easily triggered.

[@colinburroughs9871]

Holdsworth and Satriani are both way more fun to listen to than Brian May. Does anyone listen Brain May or do they listen to Queen songs?

[@YW86-de5yz]

I like the band Marillion very much. However, this actually means I like quite a lot of their songs very much, but I cannot listen to every Marillion album from start to finish, meaning there tends to be quite some filler-material on their albums, especially during the H-era. In my view they are a band that if they are good, they are really really good, but when they miss their mark, boy do they miss …