The Therapeutic-Evangelical-Individualistic-Mega-Church's Meaning Crisis: John Mark Comer

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[@jimluebke3869]

Also from this video, a quote from Merton: "We spend so much of our lives trying to climb the ladder of success, only to find it's leaning against the wrong wall."

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Great quote

[@jimluebke3869]

@@PaulVanderKlay Definitely material here for more than one commentary! =)

[@jeremyfirth]

I believe that's from Stephen R. Covey originally (the "Seven Habits of Highly Successful People" guy, and the guy who first developed the idea of every organization having an explicit "mission statement"). It's another weird intersection: self-improvement cargo cults intersecting with evangelicalism.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@jeremyfirth "7 Habits" was published in 1989, a couple of decades after Merton died. Granted, Merton was only about 15 years older than Covey, but circumstantially it looks like the line more probably came from Merton. I'm open to being proven wrong, though, with a couple of citations.

[@jeremyfirth]

@@jimluebke3869 You're right. I heard it first from Covey, so it was primary in my internal timeline, but he lifted it from Merton.

[@roderickhare]

Your comments about "tone" made me think of early JBP talking about a whole generation of young men being raised to be harmless. The "tone" drips with harmlessness.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Yeah, what you said. That really nails it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

[@DogOneIsOpen]

Very good point. Many men feel like they were offered a bargain: turn in your “man card” and you’ll have peace in your community, in your home and in your marriage life. That hasn’t panned out exactly. Yet the romantic notion of Aaragorn-types did not disappear from our imagination, nor did romantic notions of strong men in the imaginations of women. There has been a bipolar attitude in the church towards men: men need to simultaneously “man up” but also need to be endlessly reluctant to adopt a masculine mindset towards civilizational development, community, and their own faith (doctrine, church order, etc). The acceptable mindset was essentially feminine. The rise of the manosphere in the church is a signal that men feel that they were misled into accepting a more feminine psychological posture which was fatal for families (breakdown of order, disrespecting parents) communities (decline in institutions), and marriages (deep down women don’t want to marry another woman).

[@chrisyoung2179]

He’s got your common megachurch pastor voice

[@alecfoster448]

And isn't it interesting that Jordan Peterson can speak about psychology in a way that is specifically not soft? That does have an edge? Or at least it seems that way to me.

[@jimluebke3869]

Those of us who have had our lives ruined by The System for not adhering to a sufficiently harmless tone, are listening to Peterson with great interest.

[@jimluebke3869]

Next time Paul reviews this video, he'll include the line... "I wrestle with God, and I hope to lose."

[@DogOneIsOpen]

14:16 This whole part about “the evangelical voice” really struck me. It’s probably one of the reasons so many men avoid the church or are disengaged from it even while attending. I personally find it almost unbearable. The “voice” is sweet, feminine, and disarming, dripping with honey but it turns off a lot of men, especially those who know their role in the world is as vital as the feminine role. If these sweet-voiced men are held up as the examples that men are to aspire to, we should not be at all surprised if more masculine good men see it as a weakening influence, if not downright poisonous to the masculine soul. Not surprisingly, as disarming as these sweet talkers are, they often have many marriage problems themselves. These guys attract women on the front end as super non-threatening, but I think then the woman watches a romance movie and remembers what she’s missing out on with a more masculine man. I don’t mean this to be flattering, but one thing that I admire about you PVK is the obvious genuine care you show for those who are weak or hurting or misled, but you don’t do so in a pandering or completely harmless manner. You tap into your masculine energy when appropriate and balance emotional engagement with logical reasoning very well. I think a lot of guys out there don’t want an Alpha Chad Pastor or an effeminate one. They want to witness role models who display wisdom in how they cultivate their hearts and minds and are willing to display whatever emotion or make whatever reasoning is necessary in the hour. That’s true masculinity. I wonder if so much of this smarmy, self-congratulatory, faux humility that you see in big box churches is basically just emulating PR departments in big corporations. Perhaps that’s too cynical but I think there’s something there.

[@DogOneIsOpen]

The tail end of the video where John Mark discusses the stages of faith was very good. I wish that evangelical pastors were more comfortable in their own skin as men. If they spoke more plainly and with their God-given voice I think a lot of men would be more inclined to listen without feeling like their masculine frame of mind was being subtly undermined.

[@jimluebke3869]

PVK knows that the people who live outside his church are not helped by soft words.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Be careful here. There is a very important place for the megachurches in God's economy, but they are not for everyone, and they are not all cut from the same cloth.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

I also would say maybe this is not an affect in the voice, but maybe this is what rises to the top- the father of polyvagal theory, Stephen Porges talks about how important the tone of the voice is in calming people-and it would make sense that people are able to stay and listen when they are simultaneously soothed.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

There’a a female teacher at our church and I hear so many complaints about her voice.

[@paveli1181]

Megachurch pastors burn out for the same reason rock musicians burn out. Emotions are exhausting. Eucharist should be the most important part of the service. Everything else is just commentary.

[@mlts9984]

You’d be shocked at how many people would leave a church that’s all about the Eucharist scratching their heads in befuddlement.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

The Eucharist only exists “Really” in the Orthodox Church…

[@jeremyfirth]

@@mlts9984 Most people's experience of "church" is all about feeding the left brain, but Divine Liturgy is all about calming your left brain down and experiencing worship in a way that transcends language. But this usually doesn't happen at first. You have to keep exposing yourself to the experience.

[@gregorymoats4007]

@@orthodoxboomergrandma3561your assertion is mos

[@gregorymoats4007]

@@orthodoxboomergrandma3561your assertion is mistaken

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

St Seraphim of Sarov “attain inner peace and 1000s around you will be saved,” paraphrased. Hence the Eastern Orthodox emphasis on the inner ascetic struggle occurring in the One Church in the context of ongoing repentance, ceaseless Noetic prayer and the Sacraments. 🙏🏻☦️🥰

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

I nominate you to start teaching PVK (and us!) about the absolute importance of *THEOSIS* in the life of all Christians, whether or not they go to the Orthodox church.

[@gregorymoats4007]

Richard Rohr has stated, in his view, the best spiritual directors function as good therapists. The best therapists function as good spiritual directors…I’ve found this to be accurate, though I’ve never undergone direction with a Therapist.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

🙏🏼

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Correct.

[@nathansybrandy]

56:00 I've been doing a deep dive into Doug Wilson, trying to figure out why he has become popular. The internet-facing side likes him partly for his provocative demeanor, but the reason his congregants are loyal is because his church seeks to go beyond step three. Whether they do it well is another subject, but this is why his congregants will defend him no matter what.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

If you think Doug Wilson is provocative, you should try reading the gospels sometime....

[@nathansybrandy]

@@Pseudo_Boethius Yeah but Doug isn't a Bible, so that analogy doesn't really apply. By his own admission, Doug says certain things purely for the reactions. Maybe it's justified, but it is undeniably provocative and attention-getting.

[@WhiteStoneName]

It’s fascinating how much this overlaps with my livestream this morning. And the one coming tomorrow. Like we’re part of the same body/hive-mind.

[@fearlesstook8871]

John Mark is also a PK. He took over a large church from his dad and pastored it successfully for several years before founding an offshoot that also grew large. Regarding tone, it's a homiletics decision. In the same way, some pastors studiously avoid personal anecdotes that could contribute to their own cult of personality, John Mark's tone aims to make it so that if anything offends, it is the search for / word of God. Interesting that many would find that suspicious or "harmless." In Portland, maybe more than anywhere else in the country, a megachurch pastor is likely to have in the pews folks who hate, for example, the book Jesus and John Wayne, and folks who love it. Is toxic masculinity real, and has it hurt the church? Yes. Is moral-therapeutic-deism real, and has it hurt the church? Yes. Both can be true. The degree of each truth is often best measured at the individual level. So to pastor a culturally diverse flock, without simply playing to the market force that creates a little cultic echo chamber, a pastor need a mini-max rhetorical style-one that is shrewd as a serpent and innocent as a dove. John Mark's tone is fascinating, in part, because it exposes the reality of how many devout people are always on "guard dog" mode. Most of intuitively know the 7-38-55 rule, i.e., we know tone is more important than words to influencing an audience. So if words pass the sniff test, seeming sincere and sound, we then move onto tone. What Trojan Horse might it be? A question that should always go hand in hand with that one, or better yet before it, learning from Vervaeke, is the matter of what our own cognitive fluency is leading us to want to find...

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Merobian rule 7-38-55. Classic

[@hankkruse4660]

Paul, you do not need therapy. Your response to this mushy therapeutic deism is quite correct.

[@jimluebke3869]

No one needs therapy. Having a few close friends to talk to would accomplish the same thing. More, in fact, because friends actually give you feedback. Therapists just sit back and cash checks.

[@gregorymoats4007]

@@jimluebke3869your assertion that therapists sit back and cash checks is quite mistaken….quite

[@jimluebke3869]

@@gregorymoats4007 Personal experience is speaking here. You clearly have a different point of view -- what would that be?

[@WongTag]

…and yet Vervaeke regularly credits the role of therapy alongside Tai Chi in his transformation into who we see today.

[@gregorymoats4007]

@@jimluebke3869 my point of view is you don’t get to speak on behalf of other clients & therapist’s successes or failures. However, you are at liberty to speak of yours…

[@WhiteStoneName]

40:00 “…there’s nothing to kill here, but relationships.” ❤💯 Very important point. This isn’t an ideological thought group. “It’s deeper than ideas, man.” - me to Nathan Ormond

[@mostlynotworking4112]

x reason x rationality ✅ relationality

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Nothing kills quite like ideology, absolutely nothing. It's either Relationality or don't even bother.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

So this is JMC that I was asking you about recently - if you had heard of him and his work around Practicing the Way

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@FoodTruckEmily yeah. I have only heard of him via Preston Sprinkle and a few interviews on his podcast. Otherwise, I have not followed him at all. But he sounds like he has his finger on a few things…

[@transfigured3673]

Multisite pastors are basically the equivalent of bishops I think

[@ericschlukebir4194]

It’s right at the point where you stopped, but he talks about how people seem to reach that 3rd stage ceiling in churches, and then feel like they need to leave, and then embrace liberal politics/anti racism, etc as a new religion and start the stages over. I’m only halfway thru the Malcolm and Simone Collins video on why people leave the faith, but that move seems really relevant to what they are talking about and I’m curious if they get to this. 1:06:17

[@kgrant67]

It was so good to hear John Mark talking about OCPB. I've been waging the battle against that my entire life and thankfully have never lost!

[@dianagoddard6456]

Hey Paul, thanks for posting this. You introduce me to such a varied bunch of people, in so value your posts. As a Catholic who also likes to go to my Charismatic evangelical church in Oxford for the singing and enthusiasm …Wow John Marc, I love him …ok he mentions as you say the three cornerstones of the evangelical movement BUT mentions contemplative prayer , Thomas Merton , Thomas Keating, his Jungian Analyst , second half of life etc etc ….. very much branching out and going deep and I love his honesty

[@lkae4]

Did he say Enneagram is part of the good space? 😱 I saw one study where Enneagram was ranked 39th out of 40 most accurate personality tests. This is part of the confusion. Nonsense like Enneagram, Myers Briggs, empathy, critical theory, etc is contributing to the confusion and suffering.

[@williambranch4283]

Psych is a baby science, but will be a real science some day ;-)

[@jimluebke3869]

@@williambranch4283 I don't know whether to hope for that or not. Will it be therapeutic, or controlling?

[@williambranch4283]

@@jimluebke3869 I was mocking MK Ultra.

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

It's weirdly comforting that PVK with his trait openness is as triggered as I am by this type of tone/speech pattern. And is that actually one of their homes?

[@jimluebke3869]

Yup. Apparently Comer is a bit OCD (OCPD, as he puts it.)

[@gregorymoats4007]

What does it say if others are “triggered” by PVK’s tone/speech pattern?….it cuts many ways

[@jimluebke3869]

@@gregorymoats4007 Like who?

[@gregorymoats4007]

@@jimluebke3869 it’s impolite in Christian circles to state such things…

[@jimluebke3869]

@@gregorymoats4007 But this is KZbin. =) Truth over politeness. Again, like who?

[@anselman3156]

"Theological guard dogs". I have always liked the play on the name of the Order of Preachers the Dominicans: Domini Canes!

[@Neal_Daedalus]

54:45 - I think this is perhaps where the older traditions (Orthodoxy, Catholicism) have an unfair advantage over the megachurch model. I went with my father-in-law to the filming of the feeding of the 5000 for the show, The Chosen, and every single wonderful person we talked to was ‘Non-denominational evangelical’. My father-in-law and I were the only Catholics. So for a long time I thought about that. Why is that? And I suspect the answer has to do with a broader religious culture- Catholics and Orthodox have the unfair advantage of drawing from a 2000 year old tapestry of tradition, but a megachurch founded in 2009 has 14 years of history. A show like The Chosen gives them some Christian culture they can tap into that’s beyond the current practice here and now.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

There's a Christendom element to it. With church as "voluntary organization" leaving the church is leaving the church. If you're a part of a civilizational religion not going to church doesn't mean the same thing.

[@Neal_Daedalus]

@@PaulVanderKlay you would like The Chosen, Paul. Maybe I’m a power and/or principality tempting you, but you would like The Chosen. 🤣 I’ve never thanked you for all you do. Thank you.

[@Neal_Daedalus]

@@phlebas9204 and thank you Phlebas, for a counterpoint 👍

[@christianbaxter_yt]

Paul - this podcast:conversation was part of the subtext of our 20 min conversation ; )

[@patrickwagner2978]

"… Men are mirrors, or ‘carriers’ of Christ to other men ... now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said." [C S Lewis] “A lot of organized religion seems like a man who was told that the only thing he could give God was to be found in a mirror. So he went off and made God a hugely elaborate ornamental mirror” [Milton Jones]

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Always with the great quote Patrick. Thank you!

[@NickShermanCreative]

Im not a therapy voice kind of guy. More fight club tendencies. BUT I really like john mark, he gave me hope that our vocations matter with his Garden City book a long time ago. Reading his Practicing the Way book now. MAN. He is like FULL PARTICIPATORY KNOWING. its powerful the way he's trying to pull people out of transaction and into TRANSFORMATION. Give the dude a chance for sure, which i think you're trying to do Paul. You seem like an authentic guy

[@mikewagner3088]

"This video" and your commentary, Paul, did get my mind racing. Listened as I walked the neighborhood by my office. As I ruminated on this stage theory I wondered what someone like the apostle Paul would say. Maybe, "there is nothing here that a good old-fashion Roman persecution wouldn't cure for those who get stuck after Stage 3." Thanks for posting and sharing your insights and commentary.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Just you wait....that old-fashioned Roman persecution may be coming much faster than we realize.

[@laurafreeburn8439]

Thanks, Paul, I tend to be put off by the tone these gentlemen are using, but your analysis helped me listen to them more carefully and discover that a lot of what they said was true and good

[@Subvisual]

That end bit about deconstructing allowing you to experience the early stages of the religious conversion process is brilliant. Almost like replaying your old favorite video game again from level one because the endgame content is boring.

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

The Pope bowing his head to receive the blessing of the Anglo Empire is a stunning image.

[@MarkDParker]

15:30 "What's triggering me?" I've lost count of how many times I've asked myself that question when listening to PVK and Jonathan Pageau.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I hope you find an answer. :)

[@MarkDParker]

@@PaulVanderKlay me too. There's some signal amidst the noise.

[@jeremyfirth]

With regard to the therapy comments at 13:00 or so, I was reading a book by an Orthodoxy Christian therapist, and he said he sees his job as getting someone going to Divine Liturgy regularly and beginning to confess to the priest. He said that's more therapeutic than any other approach he's tried. He said it doesn't always go that way because he counsels many secular people, but he sees his goal as getting people deeper into church, not treating them in parallel with church.

[@jimluebke3869]

It just occurred to me that the problem of evil in the world can be reframed by the "No Take Only Throw" meme. We don't want bad things to happen (take) but it is only with the taking, that we have something to strive for (catching the throw).

[@williambranch4283]

No ... Mobius-Coin ... that would be a digital currency that only increases in value.

[@strangetheology]

I have been reading Dangerous Calling by Paul Davis Tripp and it is very applicable to these conversations. Particularly his thoughts on mediocrity in the pulpit. It seems like our tolerance for mediocrity is the reason many churches are not equipped to help people through the wall.

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Pulpit needed to be broad for the newcomers yet where is it for the fringe newcomers who are used to internet quality or the ones stuck at level 3

[@strangetheology]

Our worship service and preaching needs to be a transcendent moment that meets people at various levels. Story and shared experience both have this multilayered quality.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

@@mostlynotworking4112 👍🏼 yep

[@mostlynotworking4112]

I appreciate Paul David Tripp a lot. Our church had a few sermons on how people change, and I was reminded of a book with the same title that I started rereading again.

[@andrew.bisson]

In an age where we can livestream our church services and we can access the best preaching via podcast, the question becomes, why go to church on Sunday? I don't think American protestant evangelicalism has a satisfactory answer. This question was one of many that led me to the Catholic Church.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

What the EV's need, is something beyond the "one size fits all" Sunday service. Believe it or not, those "mega churches" that work well find ways to have "services" beyond the Sunday morning service to focus more advanced believers into. This is harder to do for smaller churches, but it can be done.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

“Me too, me too culture!” Fish radio lol 😂

[@jimluebke3869]

"Theological guard dogs" Ha! Good term.

[@jimluebke3869]

"How do I speak so freely? Nobody cares about Living Stones" You care. Your congregation cares. We in TLC care, to the extent that one can "care" about anything remotely. God cares. "Not a bad public, that" to quote _A Man for All Seasons._ Who would care about something merely human-sized and temporary, in the vasty deeps of interstellar space? Well, other things merely human-sized and temporary, for one. God the Creator for another, who made the universe as a stage for us to play on. And part of the working-out of that plan, is giving Paul VanderKlay a senescent congregation "in real life", and a growing newborn one online.

[@chrisyoung2179]

Paul, you’ve gotta try to have John mark comer on!

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Would he understand or care about us though? Hierarchies bind and blind.

[@mlts9984]

His last book (or a recent one) was all about the desert fathers, maybe bring in Pageau

[@mostlynotworking4112]

@@mlts9984exactly how the hive mind works. Collective relevance realization. Pvk doesn’t have the time but somewhere someone out there makes the connections or corrections

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

@@mlts9984 -- It's the Christian mystics who will be the salvation of us all.

[@anselman3156]

How pervasive is the enneagram cult among evangelicals? Comer referred to it, as our Luke often does. It seems to have become a fundamental for some, despite its dodgy occultist origins.

[@josiahalexander5697]

It's pretty divisive. Among some it is used pretty often and others don't use it at all. It seems like the millennial group were the ones mostly exposed to the enneagram and the ones who ushered it forward. I know John Mark Comer uses Meyers Briggs on top of others although his personal view is not representative of the majority. I think the enneagram has become less popular than it was a few years ago. I think part of the problem with the enneagram is how catchy the language is. It tends to be a point of conversation and an easy way to get to know another person - you could say it is a meme in that way. If I had to guess I imagine it will burn out in some years although who knows. Richard Rohr certainly did a number on the church. He filled a vacuum that a lot of churches had (and have) but attached to his basic premise were concepts of universalism, ecumenism, and the dissolution of boundaries which, in turn, becomes liberalism.

[@anselman3156]

@@josiahalexander5697 Did Rohr promote enneagram? That does not surprise me, given what I know of his tendencies. I first heard about it in the 1980's when a Roman Catholic colleague recommended it. I did not pursue it. I took her to be a fairly faithful RC, who had sisters in religious orders, but I don't know how influential it was in Roman Catholicism. Were priests schooled in it? For my part, I witnessed to her concerning the central importance of personal faith in Jesus Christ and holy living in the world, and saw no value in enneagram as she presented it. I took it to be a passing fad, but evidently it has persisted.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

JMC talks about it alot but as a tool- to be honest, in terms of helping people understand themselves and their relationship to others and God, there are few things I can think of that are more helpful

[@josiahalexander5697]

@@anselman3156 Yeah, Rohr has a whole book dedicated to it. I think it’s one of his popular works. I was introduced to the enneagram as being a Christian personality test. I don’t think most people know this but America is predicated upon occult principles and ideas which became extremely popular during the enlightenment. Science, in general, and occultism go hand in hand seeing as the majority of early scientists were fascinated with Alchemy among other things. Psychology was deeply influenced by occultism. That being said, these things aren’t all bad, they just require deep discernment.

[@josiahalexander5697]

@@anselman3156 My main problem with the enneagram is that at some point it becomes extremely conceptual becomes there’s too many variables in the personality that a system like that can’t account for. Richard Rohr takes a pretty extreme approach in his book and categorizes ancient people according to the enneagram which, in my opinion, is straight-up-silly. But Rohr is a whole different conversation haha

[@sbarrett00]

Hearing those two young guys talking about the TLC community sounded exactly like the conversations we were having in the Emergent church circa 2005. My wife and I were really involved in the Dallas emergent church called Journey and the conversations that people were having were just like these two guys. After a few years everyone realizes that these “communities” kind of boil down to social groups of interesting people of the same age and demographics. Journey was great when everyone was in their 20s and nobody had kids. Once a few of the core couples started having kids they realized that the community was basically a clubhouse and it wasn’t a serious place where you could live practically with a young family. So they left to find something a bit less interesting.

[@Lindsay_Mason]

I got chills listening to the stages of spiritual growth at the end. By the grace of God, He has been leading me through the later stages for the past four years, and this channel has been an important part of that.

[@aarondutil3077]

These guys are parroting a caricature of the psychotherapist. American Buddhist teachers use this same saccharine tone. Thanks for triggering me on a Tuesday morning right before I start work, Paul.😆

[@BradleyErickson]

How does a local church design a system with a pathway for discipleship beyond the three stages, if the "Wall", ie some form of catastrophic suffering or crisis, is required to progress? The complaint about the local pastor's product vs a Spurgeon sermon is an awfully consumeristic characterization of church in a conversation criticizing, even rightly so, the consumerism of the church. "Isn't there something more for me who is so much more spiritually formed?"

[@ddhello]

I'd like you to do more of this :)

[@thewrightoknow]

That was an amazing interview of John Mark Comer!

[@ChadTheAlcoholic]

1:07:34 one of my favorite pvk videos. An absolute classic

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Simple Christians. Sophisticated Christians

[@throughhumaneyes7648]

Imo, every major ministry/pastor/elder group needs to listen to Jay Dyers stream on "business church".

[@mlts9984]

Maybe the wall is more like a cross.

[@jimluebke3869]

Combine that with the quote about discovering your ladder being against the wrong wall... If you're finding your cross to heavy to bear, is it the wrong cross? "My yoke is easy and my burden is light", after all.

[@christianbaxter_yt]

💯

[@jeremyfirth]

@@jimluebke3869 The Cross is too heavy to bear until you learn to turn it back over to Christ and trust in Him completely. Not that I know how to do that very well, but that's what I'm being taught by my priest and by Christ.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Not really. It's hard to explain concretely, but "the wall" is more like your ego, for lack of a better explanation.

[@RightInChrist]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 📢 *Introduction to the Discussion* - Introduction and context for the video discussion, mentioning personal background and the topic of megachurches. - Mention of John Mark Comer and reflections on experiences with church planters and megachurch strategies. 01:22 🤔 *Contrasting Church Growth Strategies* - Exploration of church growth literature alongside Eugene Peterson’s works. Discussion on biases and the vibe of the Seeker church movement. - Mention of a significant book, "High on God," offering a nuanced view on megachurches. 03:36 📚 *Leadership and the Seeker Church Movement* - Reflections on the emphasis on leadership within the Seeker church movement, including personal experiences with leadership conferences. - Observations on the movement's focus on building large congregations and its eventual evolution. 05:28 🌐 *The Phenomenon of Megachurch Lottery Winners* - Discussion on the phenomenon of young, charismatic pastors rapidly growing their churches and becoming national figures. - Specific mention of John Mark Comer's success in Portland, Oregon, and comparison to other pastors. 07:30 📖 *Defining Evangelicalism* - Attempts to define "evangelical" through the Bebbington quadrilateral, discussing the complexity and evolution of American evangelicalism. - Contextual exploration of evangelicalism’s influence on religious history and its cultural implications. 09:10 🔄 *Evolution of the Church in North America* - Reflections on the interview with Comer and its insights into the evolving church landscape, including the rise of the internet and interaction with global religious traditions. - Invitation to further discussion, acknowledging the breadth and depth of the conversation's potential. 10:33 🌱 *Personal Transitions and Therapeutic Conversations* - Discussion of personal transitions from leading pastor roles to new identities, highlighting the emotional and psychological aspects of such changes. - Mention of the therapeutic impact these transitions have and the role of therapy in the lives of the speakers. 12:08 🧠 *Therapy's Role in Evangelicalism* - Examination of how therapy has become integrated into certain segments of evangelicalism, shifting from an acute solution to a more devotional, ubiquitous presence. - Notes the divide in attitudes towards therapy within American evangelical circles. 14:00 💬 *The Linguistic Style of Therapeutic Conversations* - Observations on the soft, questioning style of speaking prevalent among those engaged in therapeutic practices. - Reflections on the speaker's personal reactions to this therapeutic linguistic style. 16:00 🕵️ *Exploring Motivations in Ministry* - Insights into the complexity of motivations behind pastoral ministry, particularly the risk of performing the right actions for the wrong reasons. - Discussion on the process of self-discovery and the exposure of one's true motivations when stepping away from leadership roles. - Commentary on the Christian Reformed Church's complicated relationship with evangelicalism and its impact on individual and collective religious identities. - Examination of how theological nuances are navigated within conversations, avoiding triggering theological defenses. 20:37 🛐 *Exploring Pastoral Identity Beyond Professional Obligations* - Discussing the relief and liberation former pastors feel upon leaving their church roles, which untangles their personal identity from their professional or public ministry persona. - Highlighting the exposure and testing of one’s true motivations and the realization of how deeply intertwined personal identity can be with pastoral roles. 22:28 🤲 *Seeking Authentic Servanthood* - Reflecting on the journey towards genuine servanthood, inspired by biblical figures, and acknowledging the personal shortcomings and ongoing growth in embodying this ideal. - The speaker emphasizes honesty in acknowledging mixed motivations and the desire for a servant's heart akin to Jesus'. 24:06 🕊️ *Interpreting Church and Religious Symbolism* - An exploration of how religious and cultural symbols, such as the act of throwing flowers into a grave, carry deep, often ineffable meanings. - The discussion extends to the complex symbolism within inter-denominational interactions, like the Pope receiving blessings from the Anglican Church head, influencing perceptions of church unity and authority. 26:59 ⛪ *Rethinking Church Hierarchy and Unity* - Delving into the theological and hierarchical implications of prominent religious figures participating in acts that blur traditional denominational lines. - Prodding the reaction of traditionalists to such acts and pondering the future alignment of church structures in light of shifts towards understanding unity and priesthood among all believers. 29:10 🔄 *Reflecting on the Protestant Reformation’s Ongoing Conversation* - Considering the long-term interplay between the Protestant Reformation and modern trends within the Roman Catholic Church. - Discussing the pastors' evolving thoughts on the church owing to their shifts in professional roles, hinting at a broader questioning of the church’s definition and its capacity to adapt. 30:23 📘 *Reflecting on Church Criticism* - Discussion on the insightful criticisms of the church, highlighting the intelligence and capability of mega church leaders contrary to stereotypes. - Challenges the assumption that success in mega churches comes by accident, acknowledging the strategic and insightful leadership involved. 31:50 🤔 *Contemplating the Essence of Church* - Exploration of what the church should embody, looking both to its history and potential future directions. - Introduces concepts like "Jesus smuggling" and the idea of prioritizing community well-being over individual denomination allegiance. 34:05 🌐 *Discussing Community Dynamics in Spiritual Conversations* - Emphasizes the importance of Christian charity in community discussions, even when opinions diverge. - Touches on the concept of being open and accepting within communities, despite differences that may "kick your axioms." 35:40 💬 *Reflecting on Online Religious Communities* - Comparison of online religious discussions to traditional small group settings, praising the open and inclusive nature of these platforms. - Critique of the "naval-gazing" approach to defining community spaces, advocating for a focus on personal relationships and direct engagement. 39:17 🤔 *The Cost of Disagreement Online* - Discusses the freedom and drawbacks of online disagreements. - Highlights how online interactions remove physical consequences, allowing for more direct disagreement without immediate repercussions. 39:33 🌍 *Transition from Systems to Relationships* - Examining the shift from structured systems to fluid networks based on relationships. 41:24 🕊️ *Spiritual Essence in the Non-Place* - Discusses the foundational role of spirit and relationships in building communities. 42:22 🔄 *The Shift of Majesty from Religion to Personal Events* - Reflects on how societal values have moved from religious ceremonies to personal life events like weddings. 43:57 📚 *Discussion on Stage-Based Development and Spiritual Formation* - Explores the application of developmental psychology and stage theory to spiritual growth. 45:31 🧭 *Evaluating Spiritual Cartography and Self-Awareness Tools* - Evaluates the usefulness of theories and models that aim to map spiritual journeys. 48:04 🌱 *Spiritual Stages and Their Non-linearity* - Discussion on the various stages of spiritual development and how they evolve from linear to non-linear progression. 50:36 🛤️ *Navigating the Spiritual Journey with Tools and Theories* - Exploring different theories and tools that assist in accessing deeper parts of the self for spiritual growth. 52:37 🔄 *Stage Theory in Spiritual Development and its Modern Implications* - Introduction to "The Critical Journey" and its six stages of spiritual growth. 56:34 🌀 *The Role of Leadership in Spiritual Growth* - Discusses the potential for leadership roles to facilitate personal growth by bringing one's flaws into focus. 58:29 ✨ *Navigating Beyond Church's Traditional Pathways* - Challenges the conventional church pathways for continuous personal and spiritual development. 01:00:38 🛍️ *Consumer Mentality in Spiritual Engagement* - Critiques the influence of American consumer culture on individual expectations and engagement with church services. 01:02:14 🧗‍♂️ *The Wall: A Critical Point in Spiritual Journey* - Introduces "the wall" as a pivotal experience of suffering or pain that one cannot avoid, marking a critical stage in spiritual development. 01:05:17 🔄 *The Risk of Stagnation in the Therapeutic Process* - Emphasizes the importance of progression in therapy and the danger of becoming stagnant in the process. 01:06:15 🌱 *The Shift in Motivation After Deep Self-Work* - Discusses the transition to a phase of life where external achievements become less important. Made with HARPA AI

[@christianbaxter_yt]

The gold in JMC cast is his summary of the first 3 phases and then explanation of the last three phases

[@mcmosav]

I appreciate you watching Paul, I definitely feel like I have an imprint of “the wall” on my forehead.

[@mcmosav]

One day I’m gonna have to tell the whole story of my time as a professional Christian.

[@Chimpertainment]

That way of speaking is also found in corporate America. It's a way to make people comfortable, avoiding conflict. I also see the classic performative authenticity and self depreciation that is like a coat these corporate evangelical types wear.

[@kathleenthompson9566]

Hey Paul, thought you might want to know that we have a church family that’s going through exactly what John Paul was describing near the end of this video. The one thing that is keeping them engaged with the church is the estuary group. So perhaps you can see TLC as a way to help people through that phase. Where they get stuck after phase 3, and some inciting incident occurs to shake their foundations. Estuary can definitely help people work through that. We’re seeing it happen in real life. The outcome is uncertain. But at least we’re still talking.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I think that's right. I always thought Estuary would be useful for people at the edge of the church, no matter the direction they're traveling.

[@kathleenthompson9566]

@@PaulVanderKlay perhaps some won't completely deconstruct as a result of their estuary involvement. That's what I'm praying for.

[@JeffSwarner-io4jy]

I thought Comer’s popular book was fairly shallow, but I’ve got a new respect for him after hearing portions of this. Wow, thanks Paul!

[@anselman3156]

Are there any in this corner who take their theology from Eugene Peterson? What are the distinctives of his teaching?

[@christianbaxter_yt]

He was Presbyterian, translated the whole bible into The Message

[@anselman3156]

@@christianbaxter_yt I have heard that it was not really a translation but rather an idiosyncratic sort of paraphrase as a vehicle for his views. What was the perceived need for his "translation", and what do readers take from it that forms their theological outlook?

[@christianbaxter_yt]

@@anselman3156 he did actual translation but got major shit for it in the late 90’s I would suggest “The Long Obedience in the Same Direction: on the Psalms of Ascent” by him.

[@anselman3156]

@@christianbaxter_yt Thank you for your responses. I know very little about him. Rather than read his work (I take on board so much reading that I have to be very selective), my concern here is to try to get a concise account from his followers in this corner of what they reckon he has contributed to their theological outlook. What does "The Message" do with the text of the Bible, and why would anyone wish to read it?

[@christianbaxter_yt]

@@anselman3156 you’re welcome man!I have enjoyed connecting and dialoguing with people here. As far as “gleaning” that makes sense, and I totally relate to that Maybe a good way to look at “the message” would be to think of a man who devoted his life to practicing his faith, rather than if it’s correct/the best translation. From my experience with his work, I respect him from a distance

[@johnc2802]

I go to Bridgetown church where John Mark used to pastor. The feminism that permeates the atmosphere is definitely challenging. The problem is that it is coming into the church from the outside. It's very difficult to avoid and most people don't recognize the ideology for what it is. They often think it's normal and don't question it.

[@Secretname951]

Hanzi Frienacht has a dream of secular monasteries to help the public through stage and state transitions. Do the evangelicals have similar? L’Abri?

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Somewhat, yes. It's part of the neo-sacramental movement.

[@greyhamilton52]

Only 1/3 through your commentary Paul, but there’s some crucial missed context - John Mark didn’t go from mega church pastor to stepping down and being an author. A decade ago he broke one small church in downtown Portland off from the mega church network, and faithfully pastored only a few hundred (maybe still mega by your standards, just not to me being a Texas person 😂) there for 10 years, before stepping down last year to focus more on writing, as he says. He became popular during this period pastoring the smaller church, Bridgetown, when he started focusing their efforts on centering the church around “Practicing the Way,” or all of the spiritual disciplines, rather than the typical evangelical model. His story is really fascinating and he’s been a hugely positive influence on many in my generation (20somethings).

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Thank you. That's super helpful. As I noted I didn't know much about him.

[@greyhamilton52]

@@PaulVanderKlay of course, makes sense. He’d be a fun one to get on the channel, tons of crossover with TLC/Vervaeke on practices - plus, I think he typically stays very buttoned up in these more mainstream interviews, but under the surface he seems to be incredibly open minded and casts a wide intellectual net.

[@WhiteStoneName]

36:09 I’ve been in many of those small groups.

[@mcmosav]

I’ve led small groups like that! Maybe I was the problem the whole time lol

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@mcmosav “let’s open with prayer and then everyone can give masturbation updates.”

[@mcmosav]

@@WhiteStoneName some people have as hard a time refraining from over-confessing as they do refraining from touching themselves. Self control can be hard won i guess.

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@mcmosav I have a boner for over-confessing.

[@DogOneIsOpen]

Thanks, I had successfully suppressed those small group memories for about 20 years until now.

[@Kittovich]

The third stage wall stands out as very relevant. It seems like most people hit this wall and settle down next to it. This is when the status quo becomes important to uphold because even a slight shift in frame would in settle the seat. I hit this wall several years ago on my early twenties. It’s like the divine comedy, the Sunday church can only guide one so far. My next guide was Lewis who helped me find the Fathers, the philosophical and the mystical aspects of the Way of Jesus. The struggle of small church pastors who are not as talented as the mega pastors is like small channels trying to compete with Peterson on KZbin. If they compete in depth and reach they will always fail. If they focus on the personal and communal they will be more likely to have a helpful church/channel for people.

[@andrew_blank]

55:20 Leave ‘psycho-spiritual’ stuff to the clergy! I hear stuff like this somewhat regularly “I won’t bore you with all the details of X theological concept.” “We’ll leave that to our assistant pastor who’s a bit of a nerd for this stuff” … I think the implication is that there’s some special information/knowledge to access or be attained (and btw leave it to those at the top to ration it out to you as they see fit… although the internet has made it difficult to maintain that)… of course this frames things in a way way that only works if Knowledge and Truth are just facts we accumulate in our minds, but I think lots of the evangelical church still operates within this paradigm… high propositional, low on the other 3

[@steveagnew3385]

Thanks, Paul, for covering the things of Protestants. Your vids help me to understand the Reformation, the age of reason, the Enlightenment, and now mega Churches. As a secular Catholic, I do appreciate the tolerance of all Religions for my particular confessional faith. I prefer your term, confessions, for the stages or steps that Comer goes on and on about. Religion is about living a good and moral life and the particular confession that a person chooses can change and evolve from secular to participation, ministry, or monasticism. However, these are not necessarily progressive but merely preferences. The rise of Nones and empty churches reflect the rise of secular Religions like atheism, humanism, scientism, antiracism, and LBGTQism. Secular Religions all show people how to live good and moral lives, but secular Religions do not show the tolerance for the selected sins of other Religions...

[@WhiteStoneName]

28:45 “I am thinking about THE Church.” What is the church? kzbin.infoPab6MNS3b8o?si=Ud5mK3SPhar0JbCJ

[@andrewjchamberlain]

This critical journey stuff at the end, is so true, and how that integrates with the way we engage with church after getting through the three stages, and we get into the journey inward and then outward, and there's the point about how we aren't moved or fed by the church sermon any more. I'm there, and it's no critique of the paster/vicar/leader, they're doing an honorable thing, preaching the word, bless them, but we can come here into a TLC type space, and we can wrestle with something more, the thing we need to wrestle with. Paul asks at the end "What are we doing here together? What is God doing through this?" I think part of what God is doing is making the TLC a kind of vehicle for those on the journey through stage 4 and stage 5 and into stage 6. The TLC is a context for formation for the latter stagers. Maybe KZbin and podcasts are a great context for that. It doesn't mean we don't go to church but I bet a lot of us want something more, even while we still value the Sunday by Sunday thing and the small group, and we know we need to go on the coffee rota and put out those chairs and all. There's still an itch and we find a way to scratch it through what Paul does or JBP or whoever, but the USP of This Little Corner is that it intentionally tries to be a community, that's a big reason why I think it might be so precious and important.

[@jimluebke3869]

"You evaluate things with a grossly unfair introduction to them" Combinatorial explosiveness or oversimplified stereotypes -- choose carefully.

[@joshthegringo]

“You take out the cuss words. You take out the boobs” 😂😂😂 Evangelicals are 2 years behind Christianizing every cultural moment. Great commentary!

[@rrg0731]

I had an interaction with a mega-church pastor at a mega church I was attending. Well, the son of the main pastor and the declared next main pastor (he and his brother). (And I’m the son of a music minister). My brother and I went in to get an energy drink on like Tuesday or something because the cafe had a mean energy drink that we liked. What’s five bucks? The son-pastor was in line so we waited behind him. My thoughts were ‘I’m just gonna stand here and see how this dude acts’. (We’re about the same age). He goes into used car salesman mode and says he wants to pay for my coffee because ‘God wanted to bless me today’. I said I appreciate it but I got it (because each dollar I spend goes to the ministry of the gospel, right?). He insisted that he wanted to pay. I just kindly stood there. This leader of men squeamed around uncomfortably saying stuff and then slithered off without paying for our ‘coffee’. Which I was fine with. I just don’t respect these dudes. I’m probably in the wrong in a lot of ways. But I just don’t respect these dudes.

[@gregorymoats4007]

You realize you just called him a snake? Right??

[@williamdavidwallace3904]

My father-in-law was a big fan of Timmies coffee and donuts and sometimes got their coffee and donuts more than once a day.. (Timmies is a big coffee and donut chain in Canada.) My brothers and sisters in law wanted to place a Timmie's cup on top of the casket at the burial, but my mother-in-law said no. As best I recall, many of us went to Timmies for lunch after the internment. ---I thought that some Anglicans hold to the Apostolic Succession of a kind? "Does Anglican Church have apostolic succession? Apostolic succession | Definition, History, Origin ... The Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Old Catholic, Swedish Lutheran, and Anglican churches accept the doctrine of apostolic succession and believe that the only valid ministry is based on bishops whose office has descended from the Apostles."

[@NdxtremePro]

We really shouldn't temp the world by saying it can't get stranger. I mean, Ben Shapiro is not a #1 Hip Hop Artist.

[@jimluebke3869]

"The most hilarious outcome is the most likely one, at this point." - Elon Musk I have to admit though, my sense of "this is too weird to exist" broke down completely when I (briefly) worked on a weapon system that was, literally, a flying killer robot shark with a frikkin' laser on its head.

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

31:40. Megachurches have "worked powerfully" for "a certain segment of the population." I find this to be a questionable statement but would appreciate some evidence against my perception/experience. It's certainly been *popular* and influential. But powerful? Personally transformative? That's not how friends and neighbors who participate in such communities have described their experience or motivations.

[@steveisham8624]

Wish you'd had more time on this one. Please do more on doing/being church and the nature of the Church re items raised here.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

33:55 I’m in this category too- cannot sort out my thoughts and relationship to the church- I have felt like it is where my ego has gone to die. I have developed a deep love for all these people and at the same time feel often completely out of place. I don’t think like them at all and the looks on their faces when I talk is priceless. Though I lead worship, they do not let me speak to the congregation 🤣 I am also constantly trying to open conversations with leadership around all the things we talk about, but feel like I’m a bit of a yappy dog at their heels. I come to TLC to remember there are others kinda like me and to talk about things no one else is interested in

[@FoodTruckEmily]

51:39 he talks about the church as community a lot as well- but that the relationships in the community are contingent on the individual spiritual development and health as well

[@FoodTruckEmily]

23:01 when I first heard him, it was on a video in my community group and I was put off by his hipster look and voice, but what he was saying was really good. I then did my thing where I binge everything out there to see what he’s about- and felt like I got a decent handle on what he was about.

[@erics4802]

100% agree about not thinking the navel-gazing is healthy

[@TonyCRosa]

"The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few" - Jesus. Leadership is the implied evangelical sainthood. It is the final stage and end goal of most church planting and discipleship schemas. I've seen it and lived it. I don't know all the reasons for this, but a major one is that the goal of much of evangelicalism is re-production and multiplication. You need leaders to 'manage' and 'steward' people so that there's *quantitatively* more later (attendance, baptisms, members, missions giving, etc) than there is now.

[@gregorymoats4007]

Reproduction & Multiplication. Exactly. On the edges of a holy Ponzi scheme….

[@Secretname951]

Stage theory??? Wow, wasn’t expecting that to crop up!

[@patrickwagner2978]

"Does your preacher preach in a way that tends to produce disciples of Jesus Christ as opposed to consumers of religious goods and services?" [Dallas Willard]

[@palmtree9815]

New to this channel here-are we saying that the modern churches are using psychology (& self help techniques) to teach and make sense of the spiritual life? Is that the gist of this conversation? Someone help me with some of the acronyms they’re using TLC PBK…?

[@stephenvieting]

Isn’t this why second temple Judaism kept the choice meats set aside for the rabbis of age 40 because of this exact thing? Isn’t this the thing he’s getting at.

[@nektulosnewbie]

Related to their psychology bent in communication: I hate this sort of tone and avoid it when people come to me to talk about things. I like to be blunt, but also to get it across that that isn't the "looking down your nose", dismissve BS people usual expect. It drives me nuts when I've spoken to counselors who are like this. I kept telling them to drop it and level with me, they're not going to offend me... but maybe if they do that isn't such a bad thing.

[@drewmann856]

Paul, how can I join your Bible Study?!??

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I keep it to Living Stones local people only.

[@chezispero3533]

33:24 love it.

[@nektulosnewbie]

Trust is at such a premium that last summer, when a forest fire cut off our town for a week from the rest of civilization (save for a rough logging road) that required months to repair to bring everything back to normal, people were muttering about how this might be intentional, probably by the government so for reason related to the virus or whatever, most likely because of the suspicions about the Hawaiian fire. Yes, they were just itching to cut off a town of about 20,000. All part of their plan, muahaha! I'm used to hearing that from the usual suspects around me that are into conspiracies, but I was hearing it from more common and mundane minded people.

[@chinoclydecalbes9375]

27:50 the crown jewels were already sold during the 1960s by Pope Paul VI You can even say that he sold the birthright for a bowl of lentils

[@alohm]

I have lived through the early 2000s when the studies showed a huge drop in Church attendance. I see a change, a return to faith, but as Nietzsche warned - the personal approach to G-D is what was missing, and I see that on the rise. "It was then, the world seemed to me, coloured vapour, a poetic dream created by a disenchanted god". Hevel, all is Hevel. Vanity of vanities. Especially mega churches.

[@williambranch4283]

Every person theologically grows at their own pace in communion with their perceived community. The collective rise and fall is a secondary characteristic.

[@skylinefever]

I always saw therapy as prosperity gospel for nonbelievers. I didn't see therapy as anything other than motivational garbage and gaslighting. I was blackpill before the term was there. I was never able to "Believe" no matter what I tried.

[@williambranch4283]

Belief is part of the psychosomatic. In Australian aboriginals, a curse can literally kill you.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

That’s awfully cynical- there’s good therapy and there’s bad therapy

[@skylinefever]

@@FoodTruckEmily Well, maybe good therapy exists, but I went a lot of places only to get the same thing.

[@FoodTruckEmily]

@@skylinefever I will say from my personal experience, I did years of cognitive therapy work before discovering EMDR, and that changed my life.

[@skylinefever]

@@FoodTruckEmily Sure, and for others, EMDR was BS. My mind just will not reopen, no matter what I do to it.

[@mcmosav]

I wish he would have said “Sunday based churches of a certain size” and I wish I would have been more transparent about the ways that my Sunday school classes in actuality were better. It’s because of the least of these. Mega churches offer the ability to ignore the weirdo and the outsider to an unacceptable degree. This itch is what led me to TLC, but TLC has an extremely high bar in terms of verbal intelligence that is required. Hierarchies bind and blind. TLC might be a church but until or unless the spirit moves it’s not the church. The moving of The Spirit is always accompanied by his fruit.

[@grailcountry]

Neal and McMo.. hell yes, they just nailed it.

[@jessezandee9282]

I always laugh at how lined up our algorithms are

[@PaulVanderKlay]

It's not random...

[@mikefaber3567]

I think some of this is pretty revealing and reasonable however no one's life fits perfectly into stages. As a Chiropractor healing is much the same way. It's not cookie cutter yes you have stages but you also have such individual variations that no one is the same and it's one of the first lessons you learn. I think it's the thing they are missing that you can't stage your life. For example what if your big unfixable problem happens when your 15 ? Are you at stage 4 ? And the part about having access to past great preaching or the ability to listen to other great preaching via the Internet being a bad thing is weird. I love listening to great teachers but why wouldn't I also enjoy my local pastor or bring part of a physical congregation and the spiritual connection of being in a group worship ?

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

That picture of the pope and the archbishop is dripping with all kinds of irony for me. It's exactly the sort of ecumenism I long to see more of. Not with them, I've no interest in extending it to them specifically, but the dissidents of their respective flocks. I recall distinctly a perverce comfort in being declared an appostate by Benedict the however manyith.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Just a few things to keep in mind related to the Comer video: 1. It's us, not God, who makes Christianity so very difficult. The Orthodox have had it right all along, it's all about theosis, everything else is just a distraction. And I mean literally everything else. If the goal of your Christian life is anything else but theosis, you might as well not even waste your time in a church. But you don't need to be Orthodox to understand, appreciate or even do theosis, there are more than enough books and people out there to help: just be aware, the best sources are the Christian mystics. If you haven't read the Philokalia yet, it's time to start. 2. The core discipline of Christianity is that of detachment. What are you detaching from? Absolutely everything that prevents you from entering into theosis, and I do mean everything. There's a whole bunch of men at Mount Athos who can instruct you about that. Detachment is the ongoing process of GETTING RID OF STUFF and ideas that lead you away from Christ, like modernism and modernity for instance, which is just atheism at its core. If you have to give up your entire life and go and move into a tent in the desert to accomplish this, then DO IT. 3. The emissary brain will NEVER, EVER get you to where you want to go spiritually, it's literally impossible to use analysis and rationality to get to the highest levels of Christian life. It's either the master brian or nothing at all. The "simple Christians" do better, because they have never allowed the emissary to get in their way. The biggest obstacle to spiritual growth is the entire system of Western education since the Enlightenment. The only thing it's good for is pumping out an endless stream of God hating atheists, which is exactly what we are dealing with now. Even the muslims are smart enough to hate secularism, most of them do not allow it in their own countries, or, at the very least, they keep tight wraps on it. 4. At the end of the day, it's all about YOUR attention, and where you put it. You can let your attention run wild on U-Boob, watching idiotic videos on the New Atheists, and Islam, and modern philosophy, and a billion other concepts, or, you can take YOUR attention, and focus it on those things that really matter: Jesus, your family, and your friends. You want to make a baby happy? Show that baby YOUR attention, play with the baby, talk to the baby, sing to the baby, and then you will have a happy baby. Want to make a dog happy? Same process. Even the lowly cat likes YOUR attention from time to time, and so does your wife. If we find Christianity and life complex, it's only because we don't fix our attention on the right things. Put your attention on the right things, and things get really simple quickly. 5. All theosis really is, at its most basic level, is taking your will, and aligning it with God's will through your own free choice. Find out what God wants, then do it. The bitter truth most of us need to realize is that a great deal of the crap we do everyday has little or nothing to do with God's will for us; we are just entertaining ourselves with distractions, something our world is expert at providing for us. 6. Every single day you wake up, YOU must choose where to place YOUR attention. YOU must choose to seek God's will, or go your own way. The evangelical notion that you are "one and done" by getting saved and then sitting back and watching Netflix for the rest of your life is pure garbage, salvation is an ongoing process that is going to require YOUR attention for the entire rest of YOUR life, until you breath your last. Jesus was absolutely crystal clear about this in the gospels, especially in regards to the Sermon on the Mount and the parable of The Sower of Seeds. 7. There is one thing that is absolutely impossible for God to do: he will not, under any circumstances, take YOUR will, and force it in alignment with his own. Even if he knocks you off your high horse, and blinds you, it is still YOUR choice to follow him from that point forward. And you will have to make that choice every single day that you have left on this rotten planet, no one else, not even God himself, will make the choice for you. This is why Calvinism is ultimately wrong: it denies your free will to follow God. There is never, ever a point where God takes full control of you. Even Jesus himself had to make the choice to follow his Father every single day! Everyone has a role to play in the Kingdom of God, but you will only find out what YOUR role is by paying attention to God on a daily basis. This is why the greatest of mystics downplay their mystical experiences, because they all know that even mystical experiences of the highest order mean absolutely nothing unless you are following God when those mystical experiences are absent from your life. And this is also what all the greatest mystics sought out solitude, because the voices of the world can easily drown out the voice of God. Everything I just said above is what John Mark Comer is dealing with, and he's doing it very successfully so far. He's also right about this: success in the spiritual life has absolutely nothing to do with success as the world defines it, often times they are polar opposites. Taylor Swift might be the most popular girl in the world, but I would never look to her for spiritual direction.

[@anselman3156]

Anti pope receives blessing fro anti archbishop. They are of the same religion, and it is not Christianity. Perhaps Mr Welby is rated as the superior over Mr Bergoglio by the ones they serve. Or perhaps it is just to mark their ultimate disparagement of the papacy. Rome has lost the Faith.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Truthfully spoken. Our leaders are all wolves in sheep's clothing. This is why even a protestant like me prays the Chaplet of Divine Mercy everyday. We are really in need of God's mercy more now than ever.

[@EmJay2022]

37:00 In a world that is fundamentally opposed to truth, the path to it is difficult and messy, and there are few who find it according to Jesus. There's no way around that, so as the adage goes, if it seems too good to be true, well, then it probably is.

[@WhiteStoneName]

22:00 confessionalism is anti-saying what you really think. And that has big consequences.

[@jimluebke3869]

Like gradually coming around to the truth?

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@jimluebke3869 like poisoning your ability to discern truth at all.

[@anselman3156]

I think your reaction against aspects of Calvinist confessions has given you a prejudice against all formulations of belief in which Christians attempt to say what they do think and agree upon. I dare say there have been those who outwardly assent to some confessions while inwardly disagreeing with, or doubting, particulars. but people do that with the Church's ancient Creeds too. That in itself does not invalidate confessions and creeds.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@WhiteStoneName People can use their discernment to mislead themselves all the time. Seeking wisdom from others is wisdom in and of itself.

[@WhiteStoneName]

@@anselman3156 the simplest way to say what I mean is that confessions are not symbols/icons. They prioritize egoic awareness and self-identity to propositions whereas creeds do not. You “believe” a creed with your whole being (life, body, soul), in and outside of any particular moment in time. It can’t be deconstructed or disbelieved. It’s not playing that game.

[@paveli1181]

Advent of Jesus as Logos revealed reality in terms of its categories and their meanings. There is another logos in the world that has his own categories and meanings. This is where megachurches go wrong; they don't see the categories behind the language they are using. They think they are just being relevant and contemporary, but in reality they are promoting another logos.

[@Dogheadedchris]

The pope getting blessed is all good - this is just Francis walking the walk so to speak for the ‘new’ blessings outlined in fiducia supplicans 🙃

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Thank you for that! You are more correct than you realize....

[@anselman3156]

I had heard that document was concerned with "blessing" couples in a particular kind of relationship. How would that apply to Francis?

[@Dogheadedchris]

I’m trolling - I’m taking the ambiguity of blessings in FS and applying it to this similarly ambiguous scenario

[@WhiteStoneName]

7:18 I'm doing a livestream on this tomorrow! Bebbington's Quadrilateral.

[@TheHangedMan]

38:25 He complains about how much naval gazing we do, but then this point here is another good example of this feminine default that permeates American Christendom so deeply it has become the air we breath. No! We're men, for God's sake - compete! Use your masculine spirit for what it was meant for! Use your ego, your competitive spirit, your anger and passion, to lead, to propel your thoughts and community to new heights! Enough of the woman-like sensisitivity-training therapist Longhouse negotiation crap. Are we all gelded?!

[@vincegremillion1533]

Go into all the world and make friends.

[@fitzhamilton]

It seems to me "tapping out a stage three" is a uniquely protestant problem. It doesn't exist in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. First, because "Sunday meeting" isn't a a mere meeting of people when you're communing immediately with Christ himself. There"s an eternity of groth in that act alone. Then, protestantism seems almost entirely bereft of mysticism, true transcendent prayer. Those monasteries still exist, and you don't have to be a monk or nun to engage in the contemplative, mystical prayer that monasteries are bastions of. The contemplative life is the goal of every Christian, and the sacramental life is the default for Catholics and Orthodox. Protestantism has largely forgotten all of this, and the secularized nihilistic society we live in is the result of that loss.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Plenty of RC and Orthodox immigrants around the USA that tapped out and went into other religions... I can name a bunch from my own friendship circles. They're doing crystals, etc. now.

[@fitzhamilton]

@@PaulVanderKlay Yeah. And the majority of them (sadly a large majority of the Orthodox and Catholic baptized) are tapping out at stage one. I'm not saying Orthodox and Catholic churches don't have a problem with rationalism/secularist impoverishment and poor catechesis/discipleship. We do, a huge one. I'm saying that if you get to stage three, and you have a good parish liturgical culture where the sacraments and spiritual life are taken very seriously, that there is no obvious "third stage" ceiling. In fact, I'd say that in a healthy parish that this schema is a protestant one that doesn't really make any sense, because you won't end up in a leadership or catechetical position if you haven't already reached the higher stages. Christianity is a mystical, sacramental religion. The "problem of protestantism" is that it rationalizes the faith, and makes it a doctrinal and therapeutic exercise, rather than what it should be, which is mystical union with God. Rationalism. *That's* the cultural poison killing the West, right there. We're losing our mystical communion with God, which means we're losing our culture, losing our very selves. (For the personhood of God creates the personhood of man..) This - the problem of secularity - is universal, it effects everyone. But protestantism is in a way the root of the problem, and protestant communities have far fewer tools with which to solve it. That's my point.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

You are both wrong and correct in your comment. First of all, spiritual stasis exists all over Catholicism and Orthodoxy. You had best take a good look at the mass attendance numbers since Vatican II, especially in Western Europe. Shoot, even IRELAND is losing Catholics by the ton. However, you are correct about mysticism, and how the Protestants are suffering from it's lack.

[@fitzhamilton]

@@Pseudo_Boethius I mean traditional Catholicism. Post Vatican II "Catholicism" is the ape of the Church, a sham of the Faith. The Novus Ordo is the rationalization or "protestantification" of Catholicism by gnostic occultists who have taken control of the hierarchy. Prior to Vat II Catholicism was the bulwark of the West. There's been a hugely successful demolition of the Church, our gnostic elite would not have succeeded the way they have in their project of radical secularization leading to enslavement if the Church were healthy, were truly herself..