The Three-Body Problem Solved the Fermi Paradox in Just 3 Words

[@Strideo1]

Mass spectrometry kind of ruins the Dark Forest theory. There's no hiding by "being quiet" when technological civilizations can analyze the chemical makeup of planetary atmospheres from vast distances and detect signs of life and signs of industrialization.

[@WordsinTime]

If they can see life from that far away, we might be in trouble.

[@kirkdarling4120]

Depending on what they think life looks like.

[@KaybeCA]

There's something in the books that has a solution for that. No spoilers.

[@kaseyboles30]

@@WordsinTime Biosignatures. We've already seen a few near signatures. Biosignatures are chemicals and compounds (detected via spectroscopy) That only have biological sources. We've spotted things in concentrations that seem highly unlikely without life, however one such spotting couldn't be confirmed at the highest level and the other is waiting for a crosscheck against another combination of compounds that could explain the reading and be non-biological.

[@oneoflokis]

We can even do that ourselves to an extent, can't we?

[@jcs1025]

It could just be that in this region of the universe intelligent life didn’t evolve and exist at the same time. Yes our sun is ‘only’ 4+ billion years old, but we’ve been a technological species for only about 100 years. Another technological species could have existed for 10,000 years in the Alpha Centauri system right next door, but if they went extinct 120 years ago we may never know about them. I think asking ‘where are all the aliens’ is the same as scooping a cup of water from the ocean and asking ‘where are all the fish’.

[@WordsinTime]

Yes, we have existed for a very short time and occupied a very tiny space.

[@kaseyboles30]

I will point out that technology leaves behind indicators. Now the tech of bow and arrows leaves traces that are hard to find up close in person after a few thousand years, however in 5 thousand years much of what we've done today will be still visible from quite some distance, the moon at least, for anyone looking for it even if we all perish from a fast pandemic in the next 6 months. So the bad timing answer to the fermi paradox is also a rare civilizations answer and limits how much any two given civilizations could progress relative to their distance in time and space.. We'd have no way to pick out a bronze age civilization 30k light years away. But Alpha Centauri clearly hasn't got a Dyson sphere or city world around it or we'd have spotted it by now. Note if there is a civilization just behind us technologically 200 light years away we'll have no clear evidence for a while yet as light carrying the visual clues hasn't travel here yet.

[@jcs1025]

@@kaseyboles30 fair enough. One of the other arguments I hear is that we haven’t found any verified artificial radio signals. The problem with this as ‘evidence’ is as a civilization, such as ours, moves more and more to digital versus analog, it become ‘quieter’. At a distance evidence will be hard to come by. But so may up close evidence as in your example. If we went extinct tomorrow there will be virtually no evidence that we existed in a short few thousand years. The Giza Pyramids, Mount Rushmore, a few other hardy structures, but almost nothing will be left.

[@marko-1987]

Wouldn't be suprised if our moon was towed in at some point in the past.

[@jcs1025]

@@marko-1987 that seems like a random thought. 😂 Moons aren’t unusual. Ours is because it’s very large compared to the other moons, but we know why that is.

[@jamesbell7696]

Unless of course the aliens are also bugs, then they're actually saying, "You're like us. We're cool with you."

[@WordsinTime]

Haha I don’t think that was this particular alien’s intent in the books, but that would be nicer!

[@DekkarJr]

I think it might be projection and insecurity in a way. It's not explicitly stated but it could be interpreted that way.

[@Awol991]

Or - "bugs are our primary dietary element" - "we view bugs are a superior species" - "we can fix bugs"

[@ErickLGonzalez]

They are in fact bugs as revealed in later works. The phrase "You are bugs" was a projection on the part of the trisolarians.

[@centex7409]

Bugs aren't kind to each other. Especially the ones that use others to brood their eggs and feed their young. Nature even more oddly, seems to evolve towards exceptional cruelty.. Keeping victims alive as they are devoured internally or their nervous systems thrown into intense pain while hijacking their brains as the victims helplessly watch.. Like phorid flies and ants, or wasp larvae and arachnids.. Most likely the line of friendly vs hostile aliens will be decided if a species is R or K selected in reproduction. If they're crab like and reproduce in large numbers, it is likely a smart move to just hit the nukes.. Maybe not, but the odds aren't exactly great.

[@0hvist]

You could have also gotten the same result with: *_"Do Not Answer"_*

[@WordsinTime]

That would have been wise!

[@calencor]

i would still respond with "k"

[@esecallum]

@@WordsinTime based on the assumption that all aliens think alike... like communists. unlikely as everyone has different thought patterns

[@wades2132]

Who dis

[@ianfitchett2768]

The prisoner's dilemma

[@bookspin]

This is a really interesting idea and one of the reasons The Dark Forest is one of my all time favourite books. It puts a whole new perspective on the search for extraterrestrial life.

[@WordsinTime]

Yes, I enjoyed the whole series but The Dark Forest is an all-time favourite!

[@Robinhood1966]

​@@WordsinTimeAm going to read it now! Also because Lue Elizondo recommended it to me along with the first book in the series.

[@jazzed2b]

I used to believe in aliens, but then our government said they were real

[@WordsinTime]

Haha I don’t think they’ve visited earth but I guess anything is possible!

[@oneoflokis]

😂😂 Government has to get some things right!

[@romelcasillas2286]

You just reversed psychology'd yourself.

[@wimpymcsteel4458]

The government NEVER said they were real. They said that the videos were genuine. In other words, it is a video, and the images are unidentified. That is ALL that they have EVER said. Others have blown this out of proportion.

[@WalkoffGrandslam]

No government has ever said aliens are real. Just because wacko people present stuff to congress and its on CSPAN and you saw some clips of it doesn't mean congress agreed with it or say aliens are real. Weirdo people present stuff to congress all the time but when it's about ufo the people who want aliens to be real share it a million times. In reality they are just charlatans the same as a snake oil salesman.

[@willmfrank]

Or... Maybe the Fermi paradox can be solved by three words from "Red Dwarf:" "Everybody's dead, Dave."

[@WordsinTime]

That could be true!

[@Patrick462]

Even Kochanski? Even Snake Plisken?

[@willmfrank]

"Everybody! Is! Dead! Dave!"@@Patrick462

[@lucarinaldichini324]

That makes 4 words

[@bobfg3130]

Not really. They could have left the planet.

[@shinigami2502]

Like the discussion. "You are bug" truly encapsulate everything about Dark Forest theory

[@WordsinTime]

Haha thanks, it was something that grabbed me and summarized my reaction to the theory.

[@thhall459]

The 1960s Science Fiction writers of The Twilight Zone already figured this out. The episode “To Serve Man” … It’s a cookbook!

[@WordsinTime]

I’ll have to check it out!

[@Soitbegins_]

Classic! I’m surprised that many haven’t seen or are aware of the twist at the end.

[@EmeraldEdge72]

Well said, I will check this out also I have to mention that youre very aware of story formulas. I was not exposed to this formula but now I am.

[@rogershore3128]

That is a chilling episode. Who needs Hannibal Lecter........

[@jrkorman]

I was looking through comments to see if anyone got here first. Can't believe "Words In Time" would "have to check it out"!

[@deanjelbertaustria6174]

And here we are, broadcasting our existence out into the dark forest..

[@WordsinTime]

Uh oh. Haha.

[@Robinhood1966]

IF there is a sufficiently advanced species with Earth as it's home for millions of years, they might have a EM field bubble around the solar system's theorized Oort Cloud, that prevents any signatures of life from being remotely detected on our planet, and EM radio signatures from being broadcast from escaping beyond it. Given it appears one type of Grays showed up after the first nuclear detention in 1945, must have rang the galactic dinner bell. That they are having to be covert, the locals aren't being so tolerant of out of town scum. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We haven't witnessed overt occupation since the Sumarians and Annunaki showed up around 4500BC, flooded off the planet around 3200BC. The true Egyptians, with Isis and Osiris set up shop and built the pyramids at the end of the Younger Dryas, 9.4k BC. Their reign ended around 6.5k BC after full scale global wars with other little g gods. The weaponry used irradiated Mohanjadaro, sank Dwarka ect. The time of Demigods ended with a deluge at 3200BC. Burckle Crator, with chevrons in Madagascar dating to around 3200, and Kofels' Impact in Austria as recorded on a copied planarium tablet recorded the night sky of 31xxBC, with a new bright star's trajectory drawn out in ambiguous detail. Other additional evidence indicates this was the flood of Noah, a deluge rainout instead of titanic tsunamis during the Younger Dryas. That is when all indications of myth, religions and text describing actual gods living in temples requiring daily offerings of food, wine and anything else they desired ended. Has been a different set of rules of engagement since. Covert contact on a very limited scale since. It is in mainstream records that Earth gets impacted on average each 3k years, for over 200k years now, this last run of 5k years is the exception rather than the rule. Modern humans have existed well over 500k years, but yet only 200 years of any scientific and industrial advancement. That is another anomaly I hope we find out the explanation for in the next few years as well if Disclosure efforts are successful enough by then.

[@a.p.e.x3195]

Our signals have potentially already reached 29 habitable exoplanets…whose to say that a fleet is not already en route.

[@מוגוגוגו]

Its not a dark forest. Its more ike living in a sponge. In dark forest, everyone can smell your poop and know where you are , unless you poop in the dark stream....

[@BaldAndCurious]

Since the start of the internet we're more like going more silent, by basically eliminating the use of broadcast radio.

[@cybervigilante]

Here's a more disturbing three words: "They're already here." Also, any star within 70 light years that has a civilization, is already watching "I Love Lucy" reruns - so it's too late to hide.

[@WordsinTime]

Haha it’s possible!

[@du5707]

Naah. Signal is too weak and overwhelmed by natural signals

[@ze1977]

Aren't these four words?

[@kayakMike1000]

​@@ze1977no, contractions count as one word.

[@johnculver6994]

Those signals would be very weak.

[@mikekolokowsky]

In the Foundation series, human built robots exterminated all other sentient beings in the galaxy, then covered it up because they know humans would feel bad about that.

[@WordsinTime]

That would be an interesting explanation!

[@DekkarJr]

reminds me a bit of mass effect xD

[@kaseyboles30]

@@DekkarJr Isaac Asimov's exploration of humanities ability to limit robots to only being good for humans via the three laws (and later the zeroth law) and the unintended consequences that could occur is an influence any story with synthetic intelligences will likely show.

[@tim71pos]

It is not in the original trilogy. Maybe it's in the fourth volume that Asimov wrote decades later?

[@hogenmogen8545]

@@tim71pos I don't remember where in the series it was revealed. But the question comes up in the series several times why humans haven't encountered intelligent life anywhere else in the galaxy, even though they colonized thousands of worlds from the center to the edges. Since it was worked up to be a big reveal, it would be very close to the end. I haven't read the books since the 80s or early 90s. I don't even remember if it was revealed in one of the books the three B's wrote.

[@tedstriker2000]

we farm every resource......so would they. This is a Farm. We see the farmer once in a while and just like a cow in a field, we dont understand what we see or why.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s an interesting way to look at it!

[@brendanh8193]

To serve man, yes. 😂

[@kayakMike1000]

Do we farm every resource? No, we avoid certain resources because we don't want to kill off the last of some salamander or bird or whatever. You're one of those types of people that just see humans as bad. Treason is a crime, dude. You're a bad human.

[@Byronic19134]

You made a big assumption that they would have to farm as well which is not true, in fact it is highly unlikely an evolved species would even need sustenance anywhere near the level humans do.

[@Xander1Sheridan]

@@Byronic19134 what does need have to do with it? If they are technologically superior, their desires and whims are all that matters.

[@cortexcarvalho9423]

The first author I know to address the theme of the dark forest was Lovecraft. However, this was a little subtle, it was up to the reader to discover. And I think that was what he referred to as cosmic horror.

[@WordsinTime]

Interesting! I’ll have to do more research on Lovecraft.

[@spamfilter32]

@@WordsinTime Lovecraftian horror is the existential dread of being inconsequential to the universe, to the extent that our continuing existence is at the total mercy of beings that do not care about us.

[@TheStanishStudios]

@@spamfilter32Or even just by not being significant enough for them to take notice… like bugs!

[@DekkarJr]

@@spamfilter32 Yea i always thought it was centered in that weird dissonant feeling of dread and foreboding of the idea of beings existing that can drive you insane just by living in a village nearby their location. And that's the least of all lol. I really got into it because of Bloodbourne altho i was aware of Lovecraft before because Metallica reference his work in a number of songs, "The Thing That Should Not Be" in particular as an example has really dissonant minor chord structure that invokes a lot of that type of dreadful anxiety. A strange and unique flavor of fear. Interesting.

[@TheSleightDoctor]

Given that our own biosphere is replete with examples of convergent evolution, it's actually very likely that alien life looks much like life on Earth. The search space of possible solutions to the problems of survival is full of fixed, Platonic points. Daniel Dennett explores this in his book, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, in which he points out that every non-sessile organism needs a propulsion mechanism, must locate, consume nutrients and expel waste, pruning the search tree down to the extent that most multicellular life has a mouth and sensory organs at the front, and ejects whatever it can't digest out the back. Limbs of some sort have also evolved many times in different lineages. So it wouldn't surprise me if there are vaguely "humanoid" aliens out there, and planets with Earth-like flora and fauna. That is of course assuming they have biology similar to ours, and evolved in similar environments....which of course may be a bigger assumption than we realise! As for the Fermi Paradox, I'd say the vast majority of life is stuck in simple mode, such that we might not detect it even if we were stood right on top of it, let alone from thousands of light years away. Perhaps civilizations are so stratospherically unlikely, we're all simply too far apart to ever find each other or make contact.

[@WordsinTime]

I think there’s a good chance that if there are multiple species of aliens there might be some common biological denominators.

[@TheOneWhoMightBe]

Interestingly, feathers have only evolved once.

[@demarcoroyes526]

Just got to book 3. Its amazing so far. This series is a modern classic.

[@WordsinTime]

Awesome, I’m glad you’re enjoying it! Let me know whether book 3 melts your brain haha

[@stephenwey3382]

Greg Bear’s fantastic books The forge of god and Anvil of Stars were also based around this solution over a decade earlier (and they also took it a step further suggesting a potential solution to the one sided interpretations of this paradox)

[@WordsinTime]

I have read Blood Music, I’ll have to check out those books next!

[@planetdisco4821]

I once met Greg Bear in the late 80’s and chatted with him for about an hour. He signed all my paperbacks including Eon and Blood Music. He also told me he’d signed over the movie rights to the latter and they weee going to use the same type of morphing CGI that they’d used in The Abyss for it. Man I would have loved to have seen that. He was an incredibly decent guy that was genuinely interested in chatting with a mullet haired apprentice boilermaker in greasy overalls that was also a massive science fiction nerd. RIP Greg. You were one of the greats…

[@WordsinTime]

@@planetdisco4821 That’s a great story! Glad to hear that about Greg!

[@Junksaint]

Do not respond

[@WordsinTime]

The universe’s largest game of hide and seek haha

[@anarex0929]

Yet a depressed woke women will respond... 😅

[@cobracommander192]

Cleanse or hide

[@LEXICON369]

Come. I will help you conquer our world.

[@SebastianBlix]

Thank you.

[@spijkerpoes]

The "we have a talent for killing our own species while shooting in foot, causing our biosphere to die, choosing psychotic leaders" problem explained the Fermi paradox just fine.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s definitely a possible explanation.

[@alfonsodonotsi6691]

before reading dark forest: yea, spaceships!! after reading dark forest: Please stop every space development right now

[@WordsinTime]

Hahaha FACTS

[@brendanh8193]

Why? We are already looking for signatures of life, and aliens have had over 500 million years of a high oxygen world to find us. If they haven't done so by now, there's not much we could do to stop them.

[@meta5175]

After: oh shit we sent that human artefact spaceship out are we doomed

[@downtostandup]

The cockroaches are watching us closely for their parents.

[@DekkarJr]

it was stopped til recently lol

[@jdoe2737]

I hate to be a party pooper, but I think the most likely solution to the Fermi paradox is also the most mundane one - that (A) there aren't any other advanced civilizations in our galaxy and (B) intergalactic travel isn't possible, even for an advanced civilization. The reason intergalactic travel probably isn't possible is because the galaxies are moving away from each other faster than the speed of light. While we'd like to imagine a technology that would enable us (or some aliens) to move faster than the speed of light, in practice that'll probably never be possible because it would require breaking the laws of physics. So basically even if there's an infinite number of advanced civilizations in the universe, none of the ones that are outside our own galaxy will ever reach us or vise versa. So once you rule out ever encountering aliens from outside our galaxy, the next question is how likely is it that another advanced civilization exists in the Milky Way. It's estimated that there are around 300 million potentially habitable planets in the Milky Way, and that may sound like a lot, but you need to consider how long it took to go from the first basic life forms to even the first multicellular life forms. We basically spent most of our existence in the primordial soup, which suggests that even if a planet has the right conditions, complex life isn't as easy as it sounds. As for life that also has advanced technology, that's not easy either. Just consider how many species ever existed on Earth, and out of all those species, see how many of them ended up developing advanced technology, and that can give you an estimate of what the odds are of a planet that's teeming with life, to also have an advanced civilization on it - in other words, about 1 in 5 billion.

[@WordsinTime]

Lots of great points!

[@thatfuzzypotato1877]

I love this trilogy. Its the deep dive into science that I love, and its take on the Fermi Paradox. I personally subscribe to the "the universe is just too damn big" explanation but that doesn't mean I don't love other takes. I'm watching the Chinese adaptation and there is no way Netflix is going to come even close to doing as good a job. But oh man. I could write essays on this trilogy. It's just brilliant. I'll need to dabble now in this author's other works

[@WordsinTime]

I’m glad you found it as fascinating as I did, and that you’re enjoying the Chinese adaptation!

[@Jurgium]

This doesn't solve the Fermi Paradox, it merely settles on one of the known outcomes of said paradox as its main plot.

[@WordsinTime]

Yes, it’s a proposed solution.

[@SoundAuthor]

If an alien civilization is technologically advanced enough to traverse the distance between our worlds, we would be so painfully uninteresting to them. If you were driving down the road, would you stop and say hello to a murder of crows scavenging for food? If we're ever contacted by aliens, I would be highly suspicious of their intentions, because I can't think of a single reason we would be of any interest.

[@WordsinTime]

Because of the risk that we have a technological explosion in the future.

[@kirkdarling4120]

@@WordsinTime That would be reason to be suspicious of their intentions.

[@nilus2k]

They may be uninterested in us as intellectual equals but they may find us amusing to watch. Like a nature documentary about primates or going to the zoo.

[@BookishChas]

Great discussion Jonathan! I just finished 3BP, and I really enjoyed it. I haven’t read Dark Forest yet, but I know the theory. It’s exhilarating and yet terrifying to consider.

[@WordsinTime]

Awesome! I’ll look forward to your reactions to the rest of the series!

[@dicky-duck6632]

​@@WordsinTime ship slicing in this Three Body TV episode in KZbin: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZfapKyvg9h4m5Y

[@johnray1956]

Words in Time: There is several things that is never talked about that should be concidered. 1: The "Easter Island Effect". A Civlization uses up too many resources. This means that The civilization is thrown into a total death. 2: The "Shoots, and Ladders Effect". This is that a Civilization uses up too many resources. this time can only go become a Tier-I civilization. All other levels is permenantly cutoff. 3: Each time a Civilization goes up a Tier, The chances of Total Death incresses. 4: One part of humanity makes it into space, hundreds of lightyears away. Back home humanity faces The "Easter island Effect", or the "Shoots, and Ladders Effect". So the humanity returning would see there cousins in the stoneage. This creates the issue that, the first aliens we meet would be ourselves. Think about it this way, The UAPs could really be just ourselves.

[@WordsinTime]

Interesting points!

[@jackhurley1428]

Great Video Johnathan, liking the new format!

[@WordsinTime]

I appreciate the feedback Jack, I thought I’d try something a little different with this video so I’m glad you liked it!

[@MarcosSantos-dj6lk]

the most interesting thing for me the books reveals not matter how advanced aliens civilizations don't have warp technology but empty space drones without life inside they can achieve high speeds and sub atomic weapons is used to annihilate planets from far way without the necessity of them going to colonize others solar systems

[@WordsinTime]

Those were some cool ideas!

[@MarcosSantos-dj6lk]

@@WordsinTime very realistic The Three Body Problem trilogy is more hard sci fi and Iove it

[@johnsmith1953x]

*"A long, long time ago....In a galaxy far, far away"* Brings a whole new meaning in this video !!

[@WordsinTime]

Haha

[@johnsmith1953x]

@@WordsinTime Maybe Lucas was right? Who knows? Maybe Lucas is really an alien historian from such a galaxy? Ha.

[@ccdccd8615]

I think recent developments point to a possible answer. Technological advances are coming with increasing speed with no slowing or end in sight. In the not too distant future, we will probably have to choose to merge with our machines or be left behind by them a perhaps become “bugs” to them. My assumption is that all organic intelligent life will eventually face this situation. So maybe there are many machine “civilizations” out there which are not governed by organic needs to blindly procreate, expand territory, conquer, etc. Super intelligent machines may have their own priorities and perhaps we just aren’t that interesting to them.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s a cool theory!

[@tookie36]

I’m amazed at how little mainstream traction this series has gotten. Aliens are in the news more than ever and no one ever thinks “hey let’s not scream out to the universe”

[@WordsinTime]

Interesting point Mason! The series currently has a few adaptations so I think that will introduce the books to a wider audience.

[@bryceronie]

😂 hopefully things will come together and the universe and parallel universes will agree for it to be on Netflix or something hopefully we can hope !! Think together we will !

[@brendanh8193]

I believe there is already a series on Netflicks, though I haven't seen it yet.

The little mainstream traction might have been caused by the general cynical, depressive and anti-human atittudes of the protagonists. Maybe it’s the communist China thing. There’s also the obligatory “wokiness” that comes with Netflix adaptations, it’s losing traction with mainstream audiences for a while.

[@DekkarJr]

@ ya there is some wokeness in the show but idk it didnt ruin it for me. The way they visualized the sophon technology was rly cool. What a terrifying technology. And it's all "plausible" based on theories so it feels like the power of it and the way it can be used across space time instantly is rly love hard science.

[@spamfilter32]

The message "You are bugs." was meant to instill fear in humans. Which was kind of an odd thing to do. The aliens said that humans only lived to our modern times because our early ancestors had fear. Fear that we now no longer possess as the apex predator on earth. Our lack of fear is what lead us to our impending doom at the hands of the aliens. So reinstalling fear in us is, if we win, what brings us our victory over them. They should never have reinstalled fear into us. That message was a tactical error, and proof that the aliens are capable of making mistakes.

[@WordsinTime]

Great points! The aliens wanted to instill fear, but they made a mistake out of desperation.

[@luciasmatanova9163]

This made me remember a dream I had as a child that terrified me for days and still makes me shiver sometimes. I dreamed about an alien invasion to Earth, the aliens came to take over our planet after theirs had become uninhabitable. When someone asked them "And what are you planning to do with us, humans?" they just replied, coldly, "We'll just kill you all"

[@WordsinTime]

Haha oh no, that’s not a fun dream!

[@michaeldooley8744]

My idea of why we don't know the extra terrestrials... the velocity of the expansion of the universe is at a rate far beyond what a physical being can possibly travel. The universe expands at an exponential rate. The force of gravity is merely the inertia of the constant rate of increasing expansion. We don't usually notice this expansion because our bodies are expanding at the same rate. But for each passing second, more and more galaxies become increasingly inaccessible. I believe the ETs were here, in the distant past, but had to leave before a certain time, to eventually return to their home, which, by now, is outside our observable universe... This theory also explains why there were more visible stars in the past, than there are today. I am no astronomer, nor any sort of reputable scientist... this is just an idea. Go ahead and disprove it in the replies. Thank you.

[@WordsinTime]

Those are some interesting thoughts Michael! I believe this could be applicable to distant galaxies, but there are stars/planets in the Milky Way that could theoretically be more accessible. Interesting to think about!

[@Hunpecked]

@michaeldooley8744 According to current theory, the Local Group of galaxies is too closely bound to fly apart. In the distant future the Milky Way, Andromeda, the Magellanic Clouds, and all their satellite galaxies will merge while watching the rest of the universe recede into invisibility. Most visitors to Earth from the Local Group will see their homes actually get closer, though over a time scale of billions of years.

[@spamfilter32]

There were more stars visible in the past because in the past light pollution was inconsequential. The same number of stars are visible to the naked eye today as there were 10000 years ago as long as you go to a place with no light pollution. For the expansion of the universe to be a hard limit on how far away they could originate and still get back home while traveling at the speed of light, puts a hard limit of about 7 billion light years away. Many many galaxies away from us. If that is the case, Life in the Universe is truly rare indeed. That also means that when they got here, the earth didn't exist yet, and wouldn't for billions of years yet to come.

[@vilstef6988]

The Marsbound trilogy by Joe Haldeman has a powerful, hostile but not terribly violent alien civilization. They are ok with us living our primitive lives and are able to remove tech which makes us less primitive. Their solution is quarantining the bugs.

[@WordsinTime]

I’ve read The Forever War, I’ll have to check out Marsbound!

[@vilstef6988]

@@WordsinTime I've enjoyed everything I've read by Haldeman!

[@DekkarJr]

Reminds me of the show Colony. They literally have ships that come down and form massive walls around cities and in between the districts of them to control humanity. They weren't a "hostile race" either - but were at war with another species that had beaten them across the galaxy until they arrived at earth and decide to imprison it and force labor camps to mine in deadly conditions and also forces the humans to go along with it and help them fight or they both die - interesting premise.

[@mfarl2001]

Though an Alien civilization may view us as "bugs" if it is truly intelligent they would still appreciate us. A lot of very intelligent people devote their lives studying bugs. I like in the movie Idiocracy how cruel the idiots are. Intelligent beings appreciate other living things and respect them, respect their property rights etc.

[@WordsinTime]

I would like to think that would be the case, but there may be hostile aliens. The meaning behind the message gets expanded upon in the sequel books.

[@e7engle]

Adding this here because you said that you like the idea of friendly aliens. There is a small series of books that are incredibly light soft sci-fi that you might enjoy. The first book is called “the long way to a small angry planet” by Becky Chambers. It is very light, fun character driven story that happens in space with aliens.

[@WordsinTime]

Thanks for the recommendation Ed! I own the first book but haven’t read it yet. I’m glad you enjoyed series. I’m looking forward to it!

[@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person]

There's one thing that might aggravate the Fermi Paradox by quite a bit. If we calculate the rate of how much a species on Earth's genomes grew over the eons, and extrapolate it beyond the time life was confirmed to exist here( Therefore implying Panspermia) and take the time when the entire of the observable universe was on the Goldilocks zone when cosmic background radiation made it so anywhere on the universe could have liquid water, those two times come rather close from one another. So maybe alien life could be literally anywhere on the entire universe. The whole thing is filled with potential organic material, maybe self-replicating RNAs, maybe something else. But well, we should ask another thing. Why would an alien civilization which would require FTL travel to even hope meeting us, would care about us or the puny resources here? Unless they are into starlifting hydrogen from the sun or something, we are bugs, and the whole solar system are the crumbles we, as cockroaches, are eating. If cockroaches aren't in your turf, you don't bother killing them or even coming closer. At maximum, you observe and be disgusted by their behavior.

[@WordsinTime]

Good points! I think the reason is the fear that they have a technological explosion and become more dangerous than bugs.

[@dalejones4322]

Very interesting topic. I haven't read these books. They've been on my radar but to be honest I've been intimidated by them. This topic is however something I've pondered from time to time and this explanation is one I've considered. Maybe life is rarer than we think and intelligent life even more so. Maybe traveling vast distances at light speeds isn't possible. Maybe within the scale of billions of years we don't exist at the same time as other intelligent life forms. Or just as these books suggest, we are not worth getting to know. Either way it's a fascinating topic. Great video

[@WordsinTime]

Thanks Dale! Yes, it’s a mind boggling idea to think about, with plenty of possible solutions. And Cixin Liu’s is one of the scariest!

[@dawnssound]

Watch the Chinese eng subtitled series on youtube that covers the 1st book.

[@jamesduncan578]

I read the "Three Body Problem" trilogy about a year ago and have struggled with the intent many times. Your explanation had me going "ahha". You just got yourself another subscriber. Looking forward to what else you have to offer.

[@WordsinTime]

I’m glad it was helpful! Welcome to the channel!

[@isaacthewebcomiccreator9750]

Honestly, I’ve never read the books, but I’m not worried about spoilers, since I’m already a very spoiled person in real life. However, I should also point out that as a science fiction writer myself, I’m actually struggling with the Fermi Paradox, but that the Dark Forest Theory could be a suitable solution to my problem. Just a small disclaimer: my writing is kinda’ the opposite of Hard SF, in that it’s probably Soft Science Fantasy. As long as my style or tone is similar enough to Star Wars or Star Trek, the Dark Forest Theory honestly doesn’t bother me too much.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s cool, hopefully this helps inspire some ideas for your writing!

[@toddkes5890]

One idea might be using something like the Ferengi in your story - an alien race that goes around trading slightly higher technology to every planet the traders come across, to make money. As a result the various worlds get uplifted in technology to roughly the same level, but they have made the Ferengi very wealthy. For these traders, it is less of a 'First Contact' situation but more of a 'First Contract' situation.

[@jimdale9143]

Regarding bugs, how many ambassadors has the U.S. sent to ant colonies? Also, if advanced aliens have evolved true intelligence they may have dispensed with their biological components following a hybrid biomechanical phase. How physically large could a machine based intelligence be? The comparison to insects could be more than metaphorical. The transition to mechanical existence would also much simplify long duration space travel. Look at our own exploration of the solar system, humans have only gone to the moon but our machines have gone to all the planets and beyond. Further, if "goldilocks" or "incubator" planets are rare then the Earth could be a priceless opportunity for them to study the evolution of true intelligence.

[@WordsinTime]

I think it is more likely we encounter machine intelligence first as it will be able to travel farther.

[@mastervel7210]

"... More than Meets The Eye 🎶"

[@brunogama5056]

Spoiler ahead: Trisolarians are bug like creatures...

[@WordsinTime]

Quite the reveal!

[@TheKain202]

Not really. Realistically speaking, the Dark Forest principle is silly. Sneaking around the forest, blindly shooting at every noise you hear, you've no idea if you're shooting at a child, or a tank. And you've a good chance of making a costly mistake. Everybody would just be hiding, hunting is too risky. And even then, at the end of the story, it seems coopoeration has won out in the end. In the end it's just a plot device requiring suspension of disbelief and not thinking about it too hard, not a viable scientific hypothesis.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s the point of the theory “everybody would just be hiding, hunting is too risky”.

[@DJYoue]

Great book series, the TV show is on KZbin too (I'm watching it in Chinese to practice my listening, it's quite difficult given the science but definitely a fantastic adaptation)

[@WordsinTime]

I look forward to watching the show!

[@RicardoBSB95]

"They are almost here" would be pretty terrifying to hear

[@WordsinTime]

Agreed!

[@SuperManning11]

I still choose to believe that the Dark Forest Theory emerges from our current level of sociological development. I think as a species we will continue to evolve to the point that the scales will one day fall from our eyes and we will see war and violence against each other as completely barbaric and unimaginable as an advanced society. To me it feels as if we are struggling mightily to leave behind our tendency towards violence and hierarchical behavior that has served as a necessary component of evolution. Because it seems impossible that we could ever reach a level of complete non-violence, it is very difficult to imagine that other advanced civilizations may have left their destructive thoughts and behavior behind. The kill or be killed behavior that we have today seems to stem from a belief in scarcity of resources, perpetuated by capitalism, along with jealousies about love and anger created by group think and ‘othering’ people that we believe to be different. But these are all social problems that we will surmount, as will other technologically advanced civilizations, especially those capable of FTL travel, if that’s ever a thing. Since there’s really nothing we can do about it anyway, I might as well believe that it will all work out eventually.

[@WordsinTime]

I love this theory Stephen! Definitely a more optimistic and less bleak interpretation.

[@spamfilter32]

We will either advance past capitalism, or it will prove to be a great filter. We better advance fast or we only have a handful of generations left.

[@gpcovenant]

I think much of this stems from a complete misunderstanding of what we inherit culturally vs what we inherit biologically. The current power structures are heavily invested in the idea that scarcity, specifically are fear of scarcity, and violent reactions to it, are genetic behavior that can’t be changed or only changed with incredible effort. I whole heartily reject the position that violence and fear of scarcity are genetic. I believe that is true under conditions of extreme stress. Remove that stress and most people very naturally want to work together and make life better for one another, vs kill each other to survive. We do not have anything like that in our world today. Our stress is manufactured (some combination of intentional and unintentional actions) and then justified and explained away by the current power structure in order for that power structure to itself survive. Simple put, we are being kept at a biological stress point that very often will lead to violence, not that that is the only place we can exist from. The violence is not genetic, stress is, and one of the effects of stress is violence. A reason this is not obvious is because even after you release the stress point, it will take time for the stress that has built up to release. If that is a human probably a couple years. For a society though it is probably a couple generations for the already built up stress to fully release in the system.

[@richardcottone6620]

They could be visiting us all the time and they are so advanced we have no idea

[@WordsinTime]

That’s a scary idea haha

[@wburris2007]

I read the 3 books in Jan, and enjoyed them very much.

[@WordsinTime]

I’m glad you liked them Bill, I thought the ideas were crazy!

[@coinopanimator]

Think I don't understand with three body problem is that these aliens have such amazing advanced technology they can. They can fold and unfold dimensions if they can't tear a form a planet? Cuz it seems to me they could be using that technology to terraform Mars or Venus and they can have that. But this is never presented as an option.

[@WordsinTime]

Good question. We don’t fully understand the extent and capabilities of their technology.

[@delopez1966]

One other things about bugs...given enough Tabasco sauce, bugs are also tasty and good sources of protein.

[@WordsinTime]

Haha I’ll take your word for it.

[@toddkes5890]

Maybe the San-Ti just want To Serve Man?

[@saucevc8353]

“There’s food all around you!”

[@Eremon1]

The vast size of the universe added to the fact we as a species have only been around for an extremely short amount of time. This basically boils down to being in the right time and place, which clearly we are not. Perhaps alien civilizations did exist but they went extinct before the earth had any life. Perhaps there are civilizations that are simply beyond our ability to detect. We are far too primitive to detect anything out there, if there is anything in our range of technical ability at all. We can only see a tiny fraction of the universe we occupy. A teacher once said to the class I was in, "Meeting aliens is somewhat similar to picking a random place and going there at a random time and expecting to see somebody you know." You've got to be in the right place, at the right time.

[@WordsinTime]

These are good points. Perhaps as either our technology develops or alien technology develops we will be in the same place at the same time.

[@sandrafaith]

An absolutely brilliant (and terrifying) trilogy. I just finished reading the authorized followup by Baoshu, _The Redemption of Time_ and it's a terrific homage/companion.

[@WordsinTime]

Nice! I’m glad you enjoyed The Redemption of Time as well Sandra!

[@LeonardoGPN]

We are probably going to get extinct before the contact, but our AI descendantes could be more technologically advanced and fearsome than other forms of life. Maybe that is the purpose of humans in the universe, to creat a new form of "life" and then disappear.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s an interesting thought!

[@cindywingetbooks]

I am still a bit intimidated to read this series if I am being honest, but although I have had this thought before, it is definitely an interesting, and somewhat depressing, concept.

[@WordsinTime]

As long as you don’t mind the focus being on the ideas more so than the characters I think it is quite readable. The first book is only 400 pages if you want to give it a try.

[@cindywingetbooks]

@@WordsinTime good to know. Yeah I don't mind that at all 😉

[@ilselauwers6009]

Try listening to them on audible . The performance is really good 👍🏼

[@musicilike69]

Loved the books. " Singer" to me reveals a big clue I think. Their "core" on their ship can track a signal to star positions going millions of "time grains" ago. My impression of their measures of Time, plus the nature of their extreme physics breaking engines. The "Seed" or spacecraft they are in has been operating for 70,000 time grains. I got the impression Singer and others are cleansing Universe wide not simply one galaxy. All of them.

[@WordsinTime]

Great points!

[@spinninglink]

What are bugs best strategy of survival?? To stay in one location forever? Or to expand much to fast and spread everywhere until there is so many of us that it is impossible to get rid of??

[@WordsinTime]

Interesting question! Is it better to stay hidden or spread out? Hopefully we don’t find out the answer haha

[@violentgravy01]

We are the bugs. ​@@WordsinTime

[@bryceronie]

We let animals live in nature, or in a zoo, maybe... we already are.

[@mikekolokowsky]

In the Dark Forest books, a colony of a species suddenly views the home world as an alien threat and tries to kill them.

[@DekkarJr]

Ants travel farther than any otehr species in relation to their size for food. And are the most successful creature on the planet in terms of biomass >:)

[@DG-oo8zf]

The moment we try to hide, they'll definitely jump at us. It's universal.

[@WordsinTime]

Haha Murphy’s Law is universal

[@TheNinnyfee]

Really interesting idea. Our ideas of alien shapes may also be very limited, maybe they can evaporate into air and then rechange their form into anything they want. I always used to joke in bad/challenging situations that an alien was writing my life script and having sadistic fun with it. Now I think that is more likely than God. 😄 In the Matrix the robots say that humans are a virus. Given what we are doing to earth this is another good explanation.

[@WordsinTime]

It’s super interesting/scary to imagine the capabilities of aliens. But these differences are what make for intriguing science fiction!

[@p5yc40naut]

The physics of liquids and gases in this universe virtually ensures that all life will be solid. There is simply no way to contain energy in the form of a gas or liquid that would ever allow for the formation of even simple life, let alone complex life.

[@DekkarJr]

@@p5yc40naut yeah it needs to be able to move around and grasp objects in order to gather resources. Even a bacteria and a virus are solid objects that can move. It would have to have a reason to ahve developed something like that and the physics need to make sense as well. It's not going to have any kind of "super powers" like being able to change into a mist or something unless its an adaptation to an extreme environment. The trisolaran's dehydration ability is found in species on earth like Tardigrades which can survive in extreme heat and cold and even in the vacuum of space for around 5 days in stasis. The thing about science is it has to be justified and has to make sense given the elements and physics involved. Reminds me of the film on Netflix Spectre. It's about a city of people that are turned into an ethereal form later determined to be Bose- Einstein condensate, a fomr of matter that occurs between others extremely briefly.

[@Zelenskyy9]

Aliens : Damn it, this planet is infested with 8 billions of 2-legged ugly bugs !

[@WordsinTime]

😂

[@nhennessy6434]

Personally, I find The Dark Forest hypothesis unconvincing. The universe (even the Milky Way Galaxy) is unimaginably vast, and even our own solar system provides ample resources for our own species to support itself to the point where we could have multiple trillions of individuals living splendidly luxurious lives if we could only master the advaqnced technologies required for interstellar travel aand colonization. So it really won't be about resource competition. And in a way, Liu actually makes this point in the series. The Tri-Solarans are really a special case. They live in a freakishly unstable stellar environment with three suns and are doomed by the randomness of the concomitant orbital mechanics of the system to eventual extinction. That issue, unique to them, is the impetus for their attempt to conquer earth. Without the threat of such an apocalypse would they have single-mindedly devoted all the resouces of their civilization to conquering earth? I don't think Liu could have made a convincing case they would have, so instead he focused on the extreme case to advance his central thesis--which is a fallacy, I think. I rather believe that even if there are multiple civilizations in our neighborhood and they become aware of each other, they will find travel between them onerous, and mounting an expedition of conquest and/or extermination both prohibitively expensive and utterly unnecessary. The more likely scenario by far is one of trade of rare goods and knowledge to the mutual benefit of each species. Even if conquest of the other species home world were possible, it's likey the conquered world has such an alien biology that none of its biomass would be at all useful to the conqueror, necessitating that world be scoured clean of the original life forms, before the conqueror could "Terraform" the world with its own biosphere. If that's the case, wouldn;t it just make more sense to start from scratch and do that on a lifeless world? Certainly the galaxy has plenty of those. More than enough for all sentient races to expand to the sensible limit of what they can control and benefit from. So the Dark Forest seems like a piece of forced pessimism advanced on the back of the most unlikely of alien contact scenarios. Just not bloody likely.

[@WordsinTime]

Lots of interesting points here! The Dark Forest theory is rather bleak so I would prefer this to be the case!

[@tookie36]

We live on a vast planet with plenty of resources to go around and yet we chose war and destruction for millennia. Liu points out the unique combination of distance, advanced technologies being the catalyst for the kill first ask questions later idea. The tri solarans weren’t the extreme case. They were a weak society much like ours. The case he made was for the societies at war that could manipulate the fundamental laws of nature and districted entire universes for their conquests.

[@mariusg8824]

What's special about the Trisolarians, is that due to their specific circumstances they had to try an invasion. Otherwise they could have just obliterated earth without any warning. Since human technology progressed faster than their own, they knew humans would finally overcome them. Liu also made a point about the universe being so desolate, because it is the remnant of all the destruction that happened before. So from your perspective the universe may seem big and rich of resources, but an advanced alien might look back and see all the damage that has been done due to threats that were countered too late. In a world where life is so fragile and the environment so hostile, the one that fires first will probably survive longer.

[@spamfilter32]

@@mariusg8824 The problem with the Dark Forest hypothesis is that it presupposes that the Universe is dark, and that hiding is possible. Neither of these assumptions are true. The forest is lit up the red-light district in Amsterdam, and hiding is impossible. Our planet has been broadcasting biosignatures for a couple of billion years, and any civilization within 100 light years has already seen our techno signatures. All without ever receiving a radio transmission from us. and the referse is also true. We are at most a decade from being able to see bio signatures from extra solar planets and maybe only that far from being able to find techno signatures as well. No one needs to actively communicate for everyone to see everyone else (or at least the possibility of everyone else). In space, hiding is impossible.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​@@tookie36There is an error in your assumptions. Humans didn't spring into life randomly distributed over the planet, we have spread from a common point of origin, bringing our conflicts with us wherever we went. War was rarely about resources, for most of human history there was more wilderness than cultivated area. Still is if you count the oceans. But humanity never went to war with bears or cats or owls or squids. Or bugs. While humanity has largely managed to isolate itself from the ecosystem that gave birth to it, we still share this space with everything else. The biodiversity in cities is higher than in the countryside. The collective biomass of snails is equal to the collective biomass of humanity. The collective biomass of all insects is higher than the collective biomass of humanity plus human agriculture and pets and farm animals. We are not at war with them and are not trying to colonise their ecological niches.

[@leachblah6313]

If the alien civilization is so vast, diversed and advanced, then there are surely some aliens who defected. Them giving us counter technology would be best chance of surviving the attack.

[@WordsinTime]

That would be very interesting!

[@curtjarrell9710]

Fascinating. Might get to this series this summer.

[@WordsinTime]

The ideas in this series were mind blowing. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did!

[@onisuryaman408]

Here is my solution on the Fermi Paradox. The development of a civilization is extremely short compared to the age of the universe, or the galaxy. Civilization comes and go, just an infinitesimal blink in a total darkness. Added with the distance between stars, not to mention inhabited stars, the probability that one civilization could contact another is very small. So, the solution is: most civilizations just die out before meeting other civilizations.

[@WordsinTime]

That could be the case! Would be interesting to see if our civilization lives long enough to meet another!

[@onisuryaman408]

@@WordsinTime I doubt it though. We are a very young species. And we tend to self destruct ourselves 🥲

[@spamfilter32]

This is called the great filter hypothesis. Humans are dead set on proving this true as make ourselves extinct with in a handful of generations from now.

[@brianbieron4733]

@onisury... This is the soundest theory and you put it down in fewer words than I did. 👍

[@pauljs75]

Bugs tend to be completely ignored, unless they get into the house and do something annoying. So there's that too. Other than that, I think developing technology is a rare thing and that's even with intelligence.

[@WordsinTime]

I guess you might want to preemptively stop bugs from developing the technology to get into your house.

[@pauljs75]

@@WordsinTime Ants have already had the means, and proven capable. I don't wage battles against all the nests outdoors near the house, only the colonies with interlopers that make it in. And the simplicity is they take the poison bait back to the nest themselves. So on the galactic scale... I could see another intelligent species being communicative at some point, but be wary of any of the "gifts" they offer.

[@Strideo1]

"Bugs tend to be completely ignored.." Tell an entomologist that. People have a wide variety of reactions to bugs from fascination to disgust to apathy. Aliens would likely be the same.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​@@Strideo1An entomologist is someone who doesn't ignore bugs. That we have a word for that supports the point that bugs are usually ignored.

[@keithattwood59]

The Earth is the prize, mankind is the infestation. We are bugs...

[@MayTheOddsBeInYourFavor]

Guys, what if the reason why we aren’t interacting with other societies is because we are all experiencing the three body problem? That by the time we develop complex enough technology to receive or send a message, we go through cataclysmic events that start our species again from zero?

[@WordsinTime]

Trippy!

[@DekkarJr]

Thats more or less Brian Cox the physicists theory altho his is more based on the fact that physics doesnt allow for fast enough or safe enough space travel for any species to get out of their own solar system tbh. think how long it took voyager 1 and 2 to get to the Oort cloud. The fastest thing weve ever built is the Space Shuttle, 24,000 miles an hour top speed and that's nothing. And 2 of 4 of the total fleet exploded in front of the world on TV. Acceleration isnt the only problem - deceleration... how? If you hit ONE pebble floaitng out there it will rip thru the ship and destroy it. There's already enough space junk surronding our own planet right now to make just getting past the first few hundred miles past our atmosphere difficult. One loose screw from any of the 14,000 sattelites orbitting our planet comes loose and curves around the earth - it hits a space craft it's over it doesn't matter what it's made out of. IMO light speed travel is impossible for biological species to survive even if it was possible. you cant convert matter into it. Now you could eventually perhaps be able to propel a craft close to or at or even past the speed of light by having some method of constantly increasing it's acceleration like the pulse propelsion method of blowing up nukes behind the craft to fire it forward. Still it would take forever. The scale of it all and the theoretical tech it would require are thousands of years in the future - MAYBE.

[@MayTheOddsBeInYourFavor]

@@DekkarJr 🤩🤩🤩🤩 wow thanks for the input. Was a treat to read and think about!

[@DekkarJr]

@@MayTheOddsBeInYourFavor ty

[@TyMoore95503]

I recently finished watching the Season 1 series on Netflix, but have not read the novels (But I am going to order them as I am curious.) The interesting thing behind the message "YOU ARE BUGS" is it seems to be a paradox. On the one hand, yes it expresses hostile intent of the aliens. On the other...if they really, truly thought that, then why would they go to all the trouble of sending two world sized supercomputer complexes to Earth to spy on us and interfere with, recruit from, and interact with us. Of what possible use is it to interact with, interface with, gain knowledge of intensions of, or even to influence the behaviour of a fire ant colony in a field? If you have a dangerous pest in the field that could harm your crops, your cattle, or your children...you don't try to negotiate with it or try to encourage it to change its ways...no, you eradicate it...with no more thought or malice than dumping insecticide in the nest. To such beings of obviously such advanced technology, we would be bugs, our eradication would be quick, efficient and effortless to them. So why didn't they just go that route. They want dialogue. Negotiation. Their intentions are not entirely hostile. Their back is against the wall. However, I would also argue that to such beings as the San-Ti, their first choice of worlds, already inhabited by us, was a poor choice. Surely they would have developed the ability to find and easily terraform a new world to call home. And, almost as easily, they could have moved their own world, carefully nudging it into an artificial, "unstable" stability where over millions of years they would no longer fear the "chaotic times." Engineering on sufficiently large scales could solve the problem. The Three Body Problem is well known in orbital mechanics. There is no stable passive solution...because the system is chaotic. The only solution that will ever work is how we keep space probes in orbit around our moon (it is a "simple" three body problem Earth, Moon, amd Sun:) you must navigate it actively...we use thrusters to keep the probes where they belong. For the San-Ti, an artificial satellite the size of a large asteroid (Ceres sized,) equipped with thrusters could be utilized as a gravitational tractor to move their world in tiny nudges that would be enough to keep it oncourse for stability. The "Dark Forest" solution to Fermi's Paradox is a dark solution indeed...having you feeling paranoid, and looking under your bed at night. Our civilization is but a baby kit in the forrest. I choose to think that microbial life may be common in the universe, but complex, intelligent life might be incredibly rare. Honestly, I'd rather be lonely than waiting for the exterminator!

[@WordsinTime]

Those are some good points. I think the explanation is that they were afraid of us having a technological explosion. On a cosmic timescale we could potentially advance quickly, which is why they wanted to stop our scientific progression and tried to do so by threatening us.

[@TyMoore95503]

@@WordsinTime Exactly...we were targeted. So, why have a dialogue at all when a much simpler solution of "block the sun until they all freeze to death" would do.

[@AUniqueName]

​@@TyMoore95503I agree- the show kinda makes it seem like the Sofons are only capable of "hacking" us- messing with our science and tricking us with illusions, but I can think of so many ways these interdimensional AI weapons can indirectly wipe us out easily. I think we are not supposed to know at this point, but the San Ti probably have a reason for this. They can already study us with the Sofons, and they don't seem very "emotional" to the point of wanting to keep us at pets- so idk what the reason would be, but I'm banking on there being a reason

[@toddkes5890]

Their first attempt was trying to be 'friendly' with us. The Sophons helped form and protect ETO, while stopping advanced science and providing 'miracles'. I'd see the Sophons setting up the ETO to slowly and steadily take over Earth so there would be human allies willing to welcome the San-Ti fleet when it arrived. Then the San-Ti learned about deception, and decided they could not live with liars. The "You are Bugs" occurred after that.

[@jonsnow7092]

The only paradox is you claiming to have seen the show and yet still ask questions that were thoroughly answered.

[@MrJeffcoley1]

1:01 mad props to you, when you began the segue “Before we get started…” I cringed expecting the obligatory “Like and subscribe” pitch. As if content creators have earned it before we’ve even seen the video! But it was just a spoiler warning. Cool.

[@WordsinTime]

🤜 🤛

[@Jortecho]

Just finished The Dark Forest and, just like some fellow friends from this (and Fit 2 Be Read's) channel said, it blew my mind. I love that Cixin Liu gives us some seemingly random facts that reappear later in the novel (like The Curse, or the ant in the graveyard). The Doomsday Battle was awesomely depicted and as I was catching my breath came The Battle of Darkness... Incredible!!! I guess I'll take a break and read some lighter stuff before I begin Death's End.

[@WordsinTime]

Yes, there were some great payoffs! Death’s End is pretty heavy, but I think you’ll enjoy it!

[@hhlptf]

We are kinda like bugs. Imagine the universe as the "outside" and the earth as our ant Hill We have no ability to meaningfully explore our backyard, nor if we did find something (like a battery) we wouldn't even understand how to use it (think about harnessing a quasar). We can't even go very far away from our ant hill because things will kill us (ants have predators too but I'd consider suffocation/freezing Temps of space a valid threat regardless) slowly our ant hill has gotten bigger, but we haven't begun to work towards a new ant hill, or try and figure out how to solve the issues inside our anthill. Half of us fight the other half and our numbers go down daily because of it. Then add in the fact we literally have no understanding of our universe at large (ants don't understand electricity wiring and we don't understand how to travel through space in any realistic way besides building a life pod and the 46th generation arrives at the destination some 500 years later. We ARE bugs in comparison to anything that has the capabilities to get here. The level of technology just to build a spaceship that COULD last 50 generations is so far beyond us even as it stands and that's literally the easiest way to do it because yoy don't have to go very fast. Definitely should be afraid of aliens until we can figure out a way to show we aren't JUST insects, but possibly evolving insects. At least then maybe we'll be interesting enough to keep alive a while longer

[@WordsinTime]

That’s an interesting way of looking at it!

[@briankleinschmidt3664]

It's because consciousness evolves beyond the need for physical bodies before it gets far into the cosmos.

[@WordsinTime]

Woah

[@empathy_is_only_human]

Howdy hi hi, Yeah, not a big fan of the dark forest theory as an explanation for the question posed by fermi. First off life appears to be an emergent property of the existence of entropy. All life, takes in sustenance that is relatively low entropy and expels waste that is high entropy. When viewed from this perspective, intellect can be seen as a biologically expensive trait that doesn't always give the best results in terms of survival. Certainly mankind has proven ourselves capable of our own destruction time and again in the last century alone. If there planets other than earth that harbor intelligent life that develop technology as we do. Then I think the more likely scenario is one or perhaps two explanations. One, we are just early to the party. Or two, intelligent life that also develops technologies are rare enough that only zero to three such species evolve in any given galaxy the size of the milky way. I suspect that both of these are true. Also consider that the milky way galaxy is one hundred thousand light years across. Earth has been radio noisy for less than a century. That means that these radio waves have traveled less than zero point one percent of the the width of our galaxy. That's like going to the ocean and sampling an eight ounce glass of sea water. And looking at it but not seeing any whales, or sharks, or fish. And then concluding that there is no life in the ocean. Our sample size is too small to draw any conclusions. And let us not forget that signal strength matters in any transmision. There are only a finite number of photons in those radio waves. Eventually, even the most sensitive of telescopes won't have enough material to ever understand that the photons were part of a transmission. The dark forest is an interesting idea. It makes for great storytelling. It provides a framework to allow within our current scientific understanding the possibility of many divergent forms of alien life. But until we actually go to other star systems. All our speculations are going to be as accurate as trying to understand and unseen, unheard language. Without data, there is exactly zero chance of our stumbling on such a solution. And even if we did happen to stumble upon it. How would we know until we go? Thanks for taking the time to read this. I hope your day treats you well.

[@WordsinTime]

The level of space we have explored is such a tiny sample size!

[@HarryJamesCroft]

Every bug feels unkillable, until you throw a planet on his head.

[@WordsinTime]

Haha this might be true

[@michaelsmith7561]

The thing I believe about godlike power and morality is the more power a conscious species gains, the more morality and respect for others they need to have, or else they would have annihilated their own species long before they achieved it. Though they may see other species with consciousness as bugs in a power spectrum, they would have love and respect for them on their journey to higher consciousness and power. Extreme xenophobia or disregard from other conscious entities would be met against them as well by others who thought the same, thus being a zero sum game. The highest conscious species would love and respect other conscious species out of necessity.

[@WordsinTime]

I like this perspective!

[@michaelb2685]

Reading this, shook me to my core.

[@WordsinTime]

Cosmic horror!

[@kirkdarling4120]

That they may be advanced, even by millions of years, does not make "interstellar travel entirely possible." Bug are only difficult to exterminate if you are trying to maintain their habitat. If you don't care about destroying their habitat, you can get rid of bugs.

[@WordsinTime]

I don't think it's guaranteed but I think with millions of years it becomes a possibility.

[@agirotto1]

I dunno, the simplest explanation would be that there's no possible warp speed, there are no possible artificially created wormholes and there's no possible teleportation, and being the universe so so vast, civilizations are never able to travel far enough to find one another. Kind of sad and anti-climatic, but it could just be it.

[@WordsinTime]

I don’t think they would need faster than light travel. They would just need generation ships that can travel between stars over thousands of years.

[@danno6169]

Or they have the technology to overcome linear travel.

[@patrick-aka-patski]

I hope they find us, if they're out there

[@WordsinTime]

I used to want to meet aliens but I’m not sure it would end well for us haha

[@CAPSLOCKPUNDIT]

Everyone wants to go on an adventure with a quirky but lovable cast of aliens, until it's time to figure out how human body parts fit their zero-g toilet.

[@WordsinTime]

😂

[@axilmar254]

I think that the solution to the Fermi Paradox is really simple: the universe is vast and does not allow space travel compatible with the lifetimes of intelligent beings.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s possible!

[@kaotic300]

some bugs can bite pretty hard tho 🕷️

[@WordsinTime]

Very true!

[@guillaumemaurice3503]

Thank you for sharing the video it was very interesting. ❤ I will check these books out. 🙂

[@WordsinTime]

I’m glad it was helpful, I hope you enjoy!

[@christopherpardell4418]

You can know a lot about alien civilizations just by applying logic. 1. If they are technological, then they understand basic science and logic. I.e. their actions will be rational, especially on a large scale. 2. If they are capable of interstellar travel, they will be social. Meaning such endeavors require maximal resources and cooperation, so they must have some measure of empathy, at least amongst their own kind. 3. They will be wary, because they cannot know what technology another species might have. Another culture may, for example, be unable to travel in space, but perfectly capable of bio-engineering a virus that would kill any potential invader. 4. To travel between stars in a reasonable period of time would require an enormous expenditure of energy and energy has value. Ergo, they would need a compelling reason to come visit. You can safely assume that they would either A- want to learn about and understand us out of curiosity, in which case they would have said hello. Or B- we have something they desperately want or need, in which case they would have just said ‘stick em up’. As a result of these criteria- the answer is fairly obvious. While there very well may be thousands or millions of intelligent societies in the universe at any given moment in time, that we have not seen any show up means one of three things. 1. There are so many they just haven’t gotten around to us because we aren’t that interesting. 2. That no civilization that attains interstellar capability lasts very long and so at any given time there might not be one within reach. Or the most likely, 3. That interstellar travel is an obstacle that is not rationally surmountable. Either thru pure impossibility, infeasibility ( talking so long to effect that no intelligent living thing would survive to reach the destination ) or 3. Simply more costly than any Rational species is willing to commit to. I.e. We don’t see aliens because interstellar travel is not feasible or possible. The myth we suffer under is the myth that science is infinitely progressive. That everything that seems impossible to us now, science will ultimately figure a way around. There is no rational reason to think that. Traveling faster than light would violate causality. It’s possible that it can’t be gotten around. It’s possible that traveling at relativistic speeds will always require so much energy as to total all the energy produced by mankind thru history for a single trip, and so unaffordable. The Universe is demonstrably finite, and so will be our understanding of it. Thus civilizations thousands of millennia old may well still be confined to their own solar systems. Their growth limited by the usefulness of whatever rocks are spinning about their suns. It could well be that civilizations that attain our level of modern technology only last 10,000 years… and that is just a drop in the bucket of astronomical time, that no two civilizations within interstellar travel distance of each other have that capability at the same time.

[@WordsinTime]

I think these are reasonable assumptions!

[@SilverMontegiu]

1. Not necessarily. Having a degree of rationality is a must, but not everything they do must be governed by strict logic. Take humans for example. Did the moon race happen because of some rational reason? Not really, it was a political competition with no real benefit to the competitors. An alien race would not have been able to comprehend why we tried so hard to stick a flag in our barren satellite, and likely neither would we be able to understand why aliens perform their space related stuff. 2. Also, not necessarily. Working together is a must, of course, but calling it empathy is a stretch. Ants do not empathize with other ants, yet they are capable of amazing feats of cooperation. 3. An engine capable of accelerating a craft to near light speed - an absolute necessity for interstellar travel - would also be able to vaporize the surface of any terrestrial world. So if you have this technology, there is very little you could fear from an inferior civilization. 4. That may be true, unless you consider the Kardashev Scale. Energy is an issue for tier 1 civilizations, but when you get to tier 2 and beyond the amount of energy you get becomes absolutely ludicrous. Accelerating to near light speed at the very least would be feasible and not terrible expensive. And besides, this doesn't explain the Fermi paradox, because the Fermi paradox doesn't question why aliens didn't visit us yet. It questions why we are unable to see them at all. Even if they stay within their star systems, we should still get transmissions and signals. But there is nothing.

[@christopherpardell4418]

@@SilverMontegiu 1-The moon race was entirely rational. It was an intentional pitting of the people of one nation against another to gain technological advantage and, even more importantly, political advantage. It was, quite honestly, the most Rational form of “warfare” human being ever get involved in. 2-And Ants are a poor analogy. Ant’s are Tropic. They do not create technology. Their behaviors are set in instinct and they cannot act creatively. Termites do not ‘plan a termite mound. It’s the emergent result of a handful of tropic behaviors of which the ants have no comprehension. I would argue that even if you wanted to posit a hive mind, you cannot have a self aware hive that does not exhibit empathy. E.g. even without self awareness, Ants cooperate with one another and act to preserve the queen and her eggs. A more self aware version of ants would have the same behaviors, and all the complex insights and rationales to support them philosophically. 3-Not true. Engines capable of accelerating to near light speed would most likely only achieve that speed thru very weak thrust, over LONG durations. Like an Ion engine. But the real problem is the amount of energy it would take to do so… it would exceed all the energy generated by mankind for the past 1,000 years. And what possible rational use could there be to ‘vaporize’ a habitable world’s surface? Rendering it barren? The one thing we can be certain of is that worlds like ours are exceedingly rare. Not just able to sustain life, but to remain habitable for a billion years. The vast majority of planets that might sustain life would be more like mars, perhaps able to support life, but only for a short while before the loss of a magnetic field and the stripping of its atmosphere by its own sun’s radiation. About the only reason an alien race might have to try and reach us that would justify the budget, would be their own survival, i.e. they need the habitable planet. In which case they would be unlikely to vaporize all life on the surface. And if they are capable of their own version of terraforming, then they would be far more likely to take on the far more plentiful uninhabited planets like Mars, rather than take the risk of warfare. 4- The Kardashev scale is make believe nonsense. Entirely untethered from reality by ASSUMING a limitless progression of technological advance. There is no reason whatsoever to believe such a thing is possible. Imagining technologies that may well be impossible is not a basis for sound argument. We may very well be near the limit of what we can accomplish, technologically. I.e. faster than light travel may be impossible. Actually deriving usable power from fusion on the planet may be impossible. Limitless energy is certainly impossible, but even an order of magnitude increase in available energy may be economically untenable for any civilization. The single most likely explanation for what appears to be a dearth of civilizations is that they are all bound to their own solar systems, and their civilizations are so far away, on average, and do not radiate in such levels that we can discern anything from plain noise. For example, Human civilization is NOT detectable from the nearest star. We certainly radiate a lot of radio noise… but our signals are spread across such a wide array of frequencies with so many different styles of encoding that attenuation, and the fact that frequencies become out of phase over long enough distances makes our signals indiscernible from just radio noise made by our sun. You literally have to know an exact frequency and the precise codec of that signal as well as have a very tight approximation of location to detect the signal from Voyager, which is being aimed right at us. It would take an extreme effort for another civilization to send us a signal we might be able to detect. And We, for example, have not sent such a signal to anyone else, so far. They could all be just like us… Listening, but not talking. So, thus far, the evidence does not suggest there are no other civilizations. It does suggest that there is no such thing as interstellar civilizations.

[@davidtindell950]

Whether we make contact or not, the only long term hope for humanity is colonization of other planets. We will always be “ our own worst enemies”!

[@WordsinTime]

This could be true!

[@thesci-fished]

Awesome, nicely presented!

[@WordsinTime]

Cheers! It’s a scary theory haha

[@thesci-fished]

@@WordsinTime indeed, it really is if you stop to think about it. I recently reviewed James Blish "A case of conscience" that was dealing with alien contact and reconciling with faith. Somewhat less scary 😁😁😁

[@JenShuoLiuYang]

lol, I thought at least one of the explanation will be “they also have bugs in their planet”

[@WordsinTime]

Haha

[@DADela-ht6ux]

I love the idea of dimenionally folding something down to the size of a few atoms, then hurling it at almost the speed of light to a planet light-years away. Still reading Dark Forest. Absolutely loved Three Body Problem. Best SciFi I've read since reading (Arthur C.) Clarke's books long ago. Amazingly visionary authors, both.

[@WordsinTime]

Yeah, that was super cool! And I think there are some similarities between Cixin and Clarke!

[@Siderite]

I am challenging the initial assumptions of the video. Survival is important. Is it now? Evolution would certainly favor survival as the most important trait, but then what? There is a bug in evolution that uses rudimentary methods of driving behavior, like chemical induced pleasure, some direct stimuli or instincts that intelligence can fight against or influence/manufacture directly. I believe that Fermi's paradox is simply solved by intelligence losing, altering, shunting, removing or never adding (in case of artificial life) the will to survive.

[@WordsinTime]

Interesting! Those aren’t my personal assumptions, they are the assumptions laid out in the book. But I like your different perspective!

[@nathantowns1999]

I love the scene where Da Shi demonstrates that even actual bugs haven’t been defeated

[@WordsinTime]

Yes, that was great!

[@Walter-wo5sz]

Harry Turtledove had a good series where an alien probe went by 1,000 years ago so they decided to invade with sublight ships. Arrived during WW2.

[@TheOneWhoMightBe]

And things got worse from there.

[@Walter-wo5sz]

@@TheOneWhoMightBe I'm addicted to ginger myself.

[@WordsinTime]

I’ll look it up!

[@Walter-wo5sz]

@@WordsinTime worldwar- in the balance is book one

[@Hunpecked]

The Dark Forest scenario doesn't really explain the Fermi Paradox. To survive in a Dark Forest with an unknown number of genocidal alien societies, a civilization must elevate assumption #3 (expansion) to holy dogma. The bigger your empire and the greater your population, then the faster your tech advances, the bigger your military becomes, and the less vulnerable you are to a surprise attack. The first Dark Forest civilization to develop will colonize the entire galaxy in a few million years, and everybody else RIP. That hasn't happened in our reality or in the 3Bodyverse, so we're still left with a paradox in both. ☹

[@WordsinTime]

Interesting! That could be the case or perhaps they would reach a diseconomy of scale. It could be hard to successfully coordinate a civilization that large. But yes, they could end up successfully colonizing the entire galaxy.

[@Hunpecked]

@@WordsinTime Galactic domination would be easier in the 3Bodyverse, with its instantaneous communication and 11-dimensional manipulation of matter. It could be done with less "magic" tech, as long as the civilization remains cohesive. Presumably continued expansion depends on the star systems on the "surface" of an expanding sphere, while tech updates are sent out from the older core systems. On the other hand, if this civilization fragments over its long expansion, it might see the core factions squabbling over the limited resources inside the sphere while the peripheral factions fight their neighbors for new star systems. Either way I would expect expansion to continue.

[@isekaiexpress9450]

After reading Dark Forest: "Whoa, now i'm scared." After reading Lord Of All Things: "Whoa, now i'm not scared, but deeply saddened."

[@WordsinTime]

Haha fair!

[@daveg5857]

Humanity would have to be at the end of its rope, with nothing left to lose before it made sense to contact an alien species.

[@WordsinTime]

The risks seem high!

[@spamfilter32]

It seems we are already there. At the rate we are going, we have only a handful of generations left before we go extinct.

[@coopernickerson7470]

There is a Cortez Manifestation everywhere in the universe.

[@WordsinTime]

I don’t know the reference, sorry!

[@coopernickerson7470]

@@WordsinTime look up history of Cortez expedition to South American from Spain, razed pillaged wiped out the Aztec empire.

[@tree_hobby4297]

This is the concept of the anti-myth, instead of in powering humanity and raising us to the level of the gods like a religion does. It tares us down and reminds us of our beast like nature and revivals our weakness of being totally demoralized by witnessing the truth of how the biggest threats in the world are mostly unconcerned with our actions and no matter what we don’t make much of an impact on these gods neither the world at large. 4:40

[@WordsinTime]

That’s an interesting perspective!

[@Emanon...]

It's not a paradox. Just an idea that hasn't been proven or disproven. The likely "solution" is distance, time and lack of imagination.

[@WordsinTime]

We don’t know for sure, just a paradox based on specific assumptions.

[@ColCoal]

I could come up with multiple different interpretations of intentions without the two you described from that message. I would ask, if they thought that why bother to tell us? 1. They could view us as inferior but hold no malice. Like imagine if we could communicate with an ant hill using little wooden signs. It would be very amusing, you might even like the ant colony. 2. It could be a cultural difference that would reasonably develop in the dark forrest paradigm. Maybe they have a kind of warrior culture where on meeting new “people” they throw out an impersonal insult to test both temperament, impulse control, and if they are strong enough to project strength back without resorting to immediate violence. 3. It could be a cultural euphemism that does not translate well into are human language. We have multiple things like this: you are the pits, you are a sad sack, etc. nobody takes this literally or as a declaration of superiority because they are being equated to negative things.

[@WordsinTime]

That’s not the only message, we know they are hostile. It’s explained further in the books.

[@Michael59197]

The Dark Forest theory is "better safe than sorry" applied in a universal level.

[@WordsinTime]

Haha true!

[@rafaelrivera9346]

I think you’re missing the forest for the trees. The universe is so vast that even if a civilization could travel faster than light between stars there are so many that I believe the likelihood of even finding us I less than wining the powerball. Even our earliest communications are only 100 or so years old so the contact bubble is only 100 light years at best plus the energy of such communication decreases exponentially relative to the distance travel. So it’s still one in a million or much more chances that we have been detected by any advance civilization. For example if on advanced civilization is on another quadrant of our galaxy then it will take an estimated 25,000 years for our noise to reach them.50,000 if they are half a galaxy away. So not likely that they would know about us yet. Ask the question after 25,000 years of modern communications if we are still around.

[@WordsinTime]

Yes, I think it is unlikely that aliens would have received our signals unless they happened to have developed technology capable of receiving it that spans across our galaxy.

[@HerbMangal]

The San-Ti may be a class 2 civilization but we have the homefield advantage! Moreover, the San-Ti needs us more than we need them. Even having a class .8 fighting against a class 2 will likely result in extinction of both races.

[@WordsinTime]

Good points!