The Three Phases of Culture

Pre-modern, modern, and post-modern. What's the deal?
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[@Scarface4TX]

Interesting that you drew the the line at 1870 for the beginning of modernism. That’s around the same time photography became available. I had an art teacher who once said that photography was a big reason for modern art - that artists had the job of capturing imagery before photos were around; afterwards, they didn’t need to bother anymore.

[@3c3c3c]

The next disruption was the personal computer, and now, AI

[@user-ql1vr2rv2f]

Photography was invented in the 1830/40s

[@stacie1595]

@@user-ql1vr2rv2f Sure, the camera may have been invented but it wasn't common or easily accessible till later. Photography wouldn't become a form of art till it's primary tool became portable and easy to work with which would have taken several decades to achieve.

[@user-ql1vr2rv2f]

@@stacie1595 photography was already common in the 1840/1850s, the Crimean War for example (1853 - 1856) was the first war to be extensively documented through photography, and the Mexican-American War in the 1840s was the first war in history to be photographed so way before the 1870s as the original commenter claimed (btw I was also wrong, the first photograph was taken in the mid 1820s not in the 1830s)

[@AndyBHome]

I do believe the propagation of photography was a catalyst for the beginning of modernism in visual art. I think it was a component of expanding industrialism and scientific approaches to other endeavors that led artists and writers, among other people focused on creative pursuits, to start applying new attitudes toward their own work. I know there are more elaborate explanations that point to much earlier times as the start of modernism, but I think it's fair to say that the rise of modernism as the dominant approach to art, industrial design, literature, architecture, cooking, fashion, landscaping, and other things, was largely driven by the growth of industrialism broadly. So the scientific and mechanical advancements that led to effective photography pushed painters to develop new ideas, just as the cost and quality of machines pushed furniture makers to rethink what makes a piece of furniture good or bad. I agree. I think the growth of photography was probably the single biggest direct influence on modernism in visual art. It wasn't alone, but it was the most direct.

[@Mogswamp]

The biggest thing that seems to define post-postmodernism for me is a rejection of irony. The theory that self-awareness does not justify cynicism coupled with an embrace of "wholesomeness"

[@Dimentino]

Making a series about a minecraft superflat world is definetly in line with post-modern ideas, since it rejects the expecations of the viewer of wanting to watch a playthrough done in a normal world with different heights. Rather, it embraces the ideas of playing in survival mode in a world type that is usually assosiated with testing in creative mode, so you might be a post-modern icon yourself!

[@Descriptor413]

Maybe this is why I've been enjoying the works of Joe Pera so much.

[@AnewContraption]

@@Descriptor413we love papa Joe

[@aesthetix3398]

Oh hi I didn’t expect to see you here! I love ur videos :)

[@Christopher_TG]

I like to think of it as combining the self-awareness of postmodernism with a yearning for the rationality of modernism and the earnestness of pre-modernism.

[@LonkinPork]

It's especially interesting how you mentioned "memes" near the end there. It's widely understood in a pop-acadmic sense that Memes as an Internet-based art form have gone through 3 phases (and are currently in their 4th) over the past 20-25 years: Sincere (?-2010), Ironic (2011-2015), Post-ironic (2016-2019), and currently Meta-ironic (2020-?)

[@ItsAsparageese]

I'm guessing that amazing one with the text blurbs about the four(?) degrees of a simulacrum/representation, generally paired with a series of different memeforms, counts as meta-ironic? Lol god I love the weird navel-gazingly recursive silly philosophical age we're in

[@dougneon9550]

​@@ItsAsparageese This jokes on another level I quite literally can't tell what level of irony you're on

[@afz902k]

I guess it depends what part of the internet you're in. For most people who are on Facebook and over 40-45 years old, especially if they are parents or grandparents, sincere memes are still the most prevalent. Stuff like "When nobody listens to good advice, there's probably a mom speaking", or "3 nails + 1 cross = saved" with the picture of a smiling minion on it. To me that sort of thing is "cringe" although I'm 38, and it probably would already have been so if I saw it when I was 12, back when internet memes didn't even exist yet.

[@ItsAsparageese]

@@dougneon9550 Oh lmao my comment is entirely serious and face-value, it was just awkward to try to describe the meme I was referencing within it 😂

[@ItsAsparageese]

@@afz902k Very good point. It makes sense to me that there'd be a generational factor in terms of people who are older having strong preferences in humor and communication. We see it in the rest of culture outside the internet, e.g. the oldest people liking the oldest architecture etc. We know lifelong taste in music is heavily influenced by what music we get exposed to by or around a certain age ... I forget if it was 14 or what but someone did some sort of survey analysis on that at some point, or so I vaguely recall hearing XD

[@SpriteGuard]

I've always liked the term "polystylism" for the current paradigm. Rather than seeking some platonic ideal form or rejecting all meaning, we're now embracing the variety inherent to a global culture.

[@hcxpl1]

Yeah, I like that. I don't think we are yet at a place that all these things are actually able to thrive and that identities are a little muddled still but I do think that is where we are heading towards, even if therewill be more than a few obstacles on the way there.

[@robrophside3691]

Charles Ives was writing polystylistic music over 100 years ago; it's incredible.

[@thegrassguy2871]

​@@robrophside3691 and Alfred Schnittke. Check out his work, it's amazing.

[@Copperkaiju]

Ooh, I like that.

[@HerodotusVon]

Yea, I think post-stylism is quite nice. It contains this notion that applying a strict taxonomy to everything a la Linnaeus is not really necessary. Why get so caught up and feel so rebellious about being technically correct or stretching a definition that is invented by and for us anyways? But also why hyperfocus on perfecting rational standards that don’t exist? Instead, do whatever fits the moment

[@codybaker1150]

I love that in art and culture conversations "modern" revolves around the 40s/50/60s in America and we all just decided that we are cool living in a world beyond "modernity" like peak society was the middle of the 20th century

[@crash7800]

It's when mass manufacturing and economic forces created a flatter society of consumerism where the range and quality of things the average person could hope to have. Putting an emphasis on the function and improvement of function - instead of postmodern non-utilitarian focus

[@codybaker1150]

​@@crash7800 It's even more than that. XKCD had a comic once about how we annually get in on a giant conspiracy to recreate the childhood Christmas of the Baby Boomers. When the parents of the Boomers declared their design as MODERN™ the children of the time froze it in their brains that this is what modernity looks like, IMO

[@JJMcCullough]

Well I mean, what’s a better definition?

[@ericbilly]

@@thepatriarchy819 maybe in a sense, and in _modern_ human history, but its more than a little ethnocentric, since its still fundamentally antithetical do the social and cultural environment that humans evolved and developed in for hundreds of thousands of years, and of course the fact that it ate itself in less than a century. i think its prudent to judge the success of a society/culture on its longevity, and the post-war "golden era" was vanishingly short lived.

[@sjhart14]

Because for a subset of the population, it was. One salary could support a family and buy a house. People had pensions or retirement funds. College was not strictly necessary but if you wanted to go, you could reasonably pay your own way through and had basically a sure-fire shot at a successful career on the other side. They had 90% of the conveniences of modern life without any of the problems we deal with now because the issues with capitalism hadn't caught up with them yet.

[@ztl2505]

I laughed at the “retvrn to tradition” bit because that specific aesthetic of memes churned by accounts with marble statue profile pictures and names like “TradWest” have to be a perfect example of 4th-stage cultural output. Bizarre, highly self-referential memes disseminated on communication mediums that didn’t exist until a few years ago, all used to express ancient ideals of faith, family, and honor.

[@UnprofessionalProfessor]

Ironic

[@MattMcIrvin]

This stuff has always been all mixed up to some degree. The 20th century Fascists both made a huge deal about how they were reviving ancient traditions, and incorporated all these high-modernist ideas about the glory of the machine and the need to optimize humanity. Naturally these guys today are going to do the same thing in a postmodern mode.

[@joshuamitchell5018]

@@MattMcIrvin Society is well starved for all those thing. Honor is a form of credit to yourself in that you are trusting that you will act in a good and just way, which will raise your self esteem. If you can trust no one else or believe in nothing , believe in your own honor.

[@hcxpl1]

​@@MattMcIrvin I mean, I agree but not quite but mostly bc the way I see it the modernist Fascists like Mussolini with the whole futurism were quite distinct from the "glorious past" ones like Hitler, in that, even though they still veneered a "glorious past" it was more on a note of "always having been on the cutting edge of civilization"

[@winster6257]

Mass media has absolutely transformed the conservative movement of especially the West as much as anything else, I feel as though as in parts of Western society, these conservative values atrophy they slowly become a group of alienated disgruntled misfits which the internet is most especially able to unify, ironically not unlike minority groups who in previous generations were ostrocized by this same type of person.

[@MelchiorPhilips]

I wrote my thesis on metamodernism, and I'm very pleased with this video. It's a very clear and accessible video on the "modernisms". I enjoy your hot take, although I am still a proponent of the idea of a 4th style. In my view, the way that we approach (pre-)modernism today is very different because we as a society have experienced post-modernism. We are sceptical of attempts to formalize and functionalize, but we try regardless. We have lost the sincerity of the old ideals, yet we yearn for them and use them anyway. It is very "meta", hence the name.

[@AinoHiat]

A fellow wrote-my-thesis-on-metamodernism here hello. Literally just had to say hello, have a nice day now. 🤙

[@balls261]

Yeah we can only experience and categorize in hindsight, so it's hard to conceptualize how things will "evolve" but the transition to the "4th" stage of metamodernism actually has a LOT of merit when you read up on it. The sincerity part you mention is a big part of it that resonates with me, and I imagine a lot of other gen z/late millennial, is being born into a post-modern world where everything is ironic and steeped in sarcasm and nihilism, and trying to create a new sincerity out of it, but only being able to use those same tools of irony and nihilism. It's like someone eating a soup that they think is delicious and then trying to make it themselves, but they only have a couple ingredients and some of them are barely similar. You try and make that soup and it does not turn out the same, but it still ends up having it's own quality to it, and every couple bites you feel like you're getting moments where it almost tastes similar, even if only for a second. The hyperreality and non-simultaneity components of metamodernism are also huge and something that is different enough from post modernism (at least in severity and scale) that it's worth making the distinction alone, imo.These were two things that existed before this century, but that was also before the internet became a normalized part of our life. Of course that is going to be a HUGE cultural shift that greatly impacts the feeling of modern day. I feel like the philosophers that came up with these concepts maybe didn't realize just how prophetic they were being. JJ's last question here is an interesting one in regards to metamodernism - 'do you think we're in a 4th phase or simply in a phase of mixing and matching?' It's the very existence of that "mixing and matching" that MAKES this a new phase. The fact that everything has kind of blurred together in this way, and we're in this weird time where so many different time periods can seemingly "exist" concurrently, attitudes, and different 'systems-of-feelings', etc. There's a concept in music production (or audio in general really) called FM synthesis. Every note, every sound, is a wave. But then you can actually use another wave to control the pitch of that note or sound, with the peaks and troughs being the highest and lowest the pitch. If you listen to that sound with that second wave controlling the pitch applied, you can very audibly hear the pitch of that sound going up and down. But if you turn the speed of that second wave up, and you stop hearing the pitch rising and falling, or the original sound at all. The sound of it oscillating up and down happens so fast that it creates a new pitch and a whole new timbre. That's the best way I can think of explaining metamodernism. It's not something to write off as just mixing and matching, but the gestalt of the existence of it all at the same time.

[@NoiseBoulderRecords]

​@@balls261 I wonder if those carriers and modulators are produced by a Meta DX7 or a Meta Serum

[@MilesHacker]

@@shorewall that example really resonates with me. I think we can extrapolate it to the whole culture of "personal aesthetics", for example goblincore. Pre-modern culture created goblins without any irony, as a common folk myth to scare children and whatnot. Modern culture rejected the pre-scientific notion that goblins could be real, instead integrating them into media purely as an entertainment item. Post-modern culture capitalized on the overdone nature of this token of modern media by integrating it into memes and current media in ways that show no consistency with the token's traditional attributes (for instance, pasting a bunch of goblins on an image for no apparent reason). Metamodern culture is so far detached from goblins as a cultural token that we are enabled to become them. In other words, the cultural token runs deeper than what we even perceive as culture on the surface. Let's say in 2023 I spend a day in the forest collecting sticks and building shrines out of shiny objects and cackling. In the modernist view, I'm "pretending to be a goblin". In the post-modern view, I am being absurdist / ironic. In the metamodern view however, I am simply being goblincore, and do not owe any justification on the explicit or implicit level as to why I would do such behavior.

[@thefinallegofan]

@@balls261 This was fascinating to read, could you recommend me any further reading please lol

[@Plumtopia]

So I guess in summary pre-modern is like the original version or method of something, modern is the attempt to boil it down to its essence and most efficient form, and then postmodern is nearly the opposite, seeing how far you can push something while still having some loose connection to the original concept

[@dippysaurus3375]

Seems to be, good breakdown

[@SirRichard94]

As I see it, premodern is about idealistic thought, modern is about rationality, and postmodern absurdist. This is how things should be. This is how things are. Thing is whatever we say thing is.

[@emilymathis4237]

@@SirRichard94I still think there will be a separate fourth stage but I’m not sure what it could be

[@swayback7375]

@@emilymathis4237 yea… it’s likely to be the “post civilization” era at the rate, Or the “this is what we have left” stage. Who knows tho, maybe I can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel, it’s probably blocked up with baby boomers bodies

[@Marina-nt6my]

How are those ridiculous fancy ornately carved chairs got anything to do with 'the Original version or method'? Before pre modern there would have been a primitive form of modernism where function was the only thing they could have even tried to get,- form and striving for a concept of 'beauty' is only something that would come out of a relatively more advanced civilisation with technology (compared to our ancestors making primitive tools and technology with no means to also consider beauty). There is nothing of 'origin' about it other than that people Now think it was The oldest thing in relation to them... It's more about what they started to value. "Original" makes no sense. The original first chair was probably a softer rock or something.

[@wesanity3787]

Your final question in this video has been the million-dollar question of my entire intellectual and working adulthood, I still don't think I have an answer. I work in architecture, and while in architecture school (and design school in general) from 2009-2015, the weirdest thing I found about my entire education in architecture was just how biased the whole system was towards Modernism, especially in terms of aesthetic style. Even though the philosophy had *kind of* moved on from the ideals of Modernism, the aesthetics that were softly enforced through design classes and studios were still very Modernist. Pre-Modern aesthetics (regardless of era) were a big no-no. Post-Modern aesthetics were accepted only in particular instances, and in those instances, it was the Post-Modern works that were accepted tended to very much in friendly dialogue with Modernism. Any kind of Post-Modern aesthetics that were more in dialogue with the Pre-Modern were also viewed very negatively. I always found it very strange how much architecture school would emphasize how "style" was not a thing and that Modernism was all about "form following function," when it was very obvious just how much Modern aesthetics were viewed as being "proper" and "good" design. There was even one time during a final presentation during my studio classes where one of the designers brought in to critique said "This needs to look more Modern." This continuous attitude really wore on me throughout my entire time in architecture school, and honestly I feel like it really sucked away a lot of my creativity for a long time. To a general observation on this video, I find it interesting how this whole cultural discussion puts Modernism in the center, with both Pre-Modernism and Post-Modernism on the edges, which makes me wonder if there still is a heavy cultural bias towards Modernism specifically as a sort of "general cultural logic." This could be the reason why the question of what comes after Post-Modernism is so difficult to answer.

[@JJMcCullough]

I think that’s true. Modernism is the aesthetic philosophy most compatible with a modern industrialized, consumer driven approach to cultural manufacturing and distribution. It is very much the successor to the “artisanal” approach of the past, which was not sustainable.

[@insertnamehere3106]

This video did a lot to help me better understand the distinction between modern and post-modern. I am a big fan of modernist works though (mainly literature). I feel like many modernists authors at times could be a little full of themselves when it came to their "rejection" of pre-modern ideas. A modernist writer could say "I'm showing REAL life and those ancients had their heads in the clouds" completely ignoring pre-moderns like Mark Twain and other American realists or Dostoyevsky who had no problem showing grim, realistic life. Or claim that pre-modern didn't deal with interior mental struggles as if Crime and Punishment or the Divine Comedy or Augustine's Confessions just didn't happen. But to be fair, this is more a criticism of Modernist philosophers or historians. Most modernist authors like Hemingway or Joyce or Elliot will bring up and praise pre-modern works all the time.

[@mjr_schneider]

My favourite modernists, like Eliot, Dylan Thomas and Pound, saw themselves as reinventing old classics for the modern age rather than discarding them. They took old forms and ideas and “made them new”. That combination of the old and new is what makes their art continue to be so interesting and it’s something I think is sadly missing from most contemporary art and literature.

[@insertnamehere3106]

@@mjr_schneider Absolutely! I really don't know why this image of Modernists as creative-anarchists got to be believed by so many. James Joyce's Ulysses was basically a love letter to the whole of the English literary tradition! What I see them as really rebelling against is a sort of Victorian or European chauvinism, with its strict social and cultural conservatism that considered the 19th century the peak of civilization that didn't need to be changed or adapted, but merely expanded to the "uncivilized".

[@hcxpl1]

​@@insertnamehere3106 Wow, that sounds like something that is being repeated today more or less, although they've run out of space to expand, so, while still trying to go to the moon and beyond, they've started to turn inward and try to have control over every aspect of life in every place all at once.

[@LowellMorgan]

Realism and Romanticism were certainly not about idealizing negative experiences, even if it does, ahem, romanticize them. Realism and naturalism in the theatre is often dismissed as "quaint" and "old fashioned" today but in the 1800's it was new, and it was offensive to traditional tastes. It was like showing rotting meat on stage.

[@insertnamehere3106]

@@hcxpl1 I don't know if I'd see it quite like that. I use the term conservative rather literally (i.e conserve something or leave it as is). I tend to see today's divides as camps who all want to see the world changed, but can't agree on what it should look like. I can't remember the last time I heard anyone on the news say "Everything is great. Let's change nothing!"

[@sophiasix9623]

My family collects mid century modern furniture, so I just wanted to make a note that it wasn’t just Eames his wife was his partner in all of it and he tried to give her credit but at the time people just don’t see as “architecty” artist. But she was definitely as much of a designer in it as him. (Her name was rey Eames and his name was Charles Eames) love your videos it’s just that history has not given her enough credit.

[@JJMcCullough]

Fair!

[@kariduanimations]

As an artist and animator who also does speculative biology projects, I’m into something I like to call “hyperexoticism”, where art and interior design is functional but also so far removed from any culture or anything conventionally “practical” that, say, you might not even know that amorphous stone thing in the corner of the room is a chair until you sit on it. Or maybe instead of a lamp hanging from the ceiling, you have a long bright yellow neon tube running from the ceiling to the floor through the centre of the dining room table. Or maybe on the second floor there’s a random little square shaped hole leading to the first floor but there’s a metal fence around it, or there’s a window into the next room that’s only as big as a baseball. It’s just interesting and a playground for my brain, if you will.

[@hayleyb467]

what's an example of speculative biology ? please & thank you ♡_♡

[@ProcyonNite]

​@hayley b How, in theory, a creature might evolve, or how a fictional creature might live in real life. One popular example I can think of is the book "all tomorrows." It's a bit creepy but dives into speculative biology quite a bit.

[@hayleyb467]

@@ProcyonNite cool. thanks for answering 💓

[@kaloncpu57]

I'm on the Mixing and Matching train. In particular lately, I've really wanted to see new buildings utilize some pre-modern characteristics.

[@benjaminrobinson3842]

This probably comes closest to the truth. Most pop culture nowadays is based on recycling elements from the past. Or so it seems to me.

[@atlas4733]

I think we could really benefit from the humanity of pre-modern stuff with a hint of modernism thrown in. Buildings need to be designed to not absolutely depress people, but need to fit to modern ideas like being possible to manufacture :)

[@kaloncpu57]

@@atlas4733 Yeah! This is a great explanation of what I want to see.

[@RTU130]

Hmm

[@baswar]

Same here. I think people are increasing like that perhaps thats what the fourth phase will be. Mixing (or trying to) the best parts of the previous phrases

[@Zirror]

Woah, JJ. The numbers in Sarah Kane's psychosis 4.48 are not random numbers. They are actually a failed (and one successful) attempt by the 'narrator' at the so called "serial sevens" clinical cognition test, which is often used as a easy test of cognition and memory. The test consists of asking the patients to subtract 7 from 100 and then 7 again from the result and so on. The narrator fails at first, but succeeds once the narrator is presumably under medication.

[@JJMcCullough]

Bold of you to presume there’s a narrator

[@Zirror]

@@JJMcCullough It is debatable, but my sister is writing her PhD thesis on Kane, so I have it on pretty good authority ;)

[@avi123]

​@@JJMcCullough Bold of you to presume that postmodern art must subvert the expectation of having a narrator.

[@maxbouratoglou6718]

@@rauldjvp3053 lol. don’t worry you are on the right side of your moralistic historical narrative you tell yourself to go to sleep 😘

[@georgedoty-williams2085]

That literally makes no difference, the play is still post-modern and impossible to perform

[@KaijinD]

Describing "post modern" as "hostile to form and function" is the best way I've heard it put. I've forced myself to suffer through several modern art museums and I always leave angry and exhausted. Your characterization allows me to better explain why.

[@KaijinD]

And who could forget this classic gem from 'Full Metal Jacket:' "you're so ugly you could be a modern art masterpiece."

[@KaijinD]

@@shorewall it certainly feels that way.

[@kayleesampson6967]

this entire video just summarized my knowledge from the art history class i took at ECUAD. like we literally went over everything you talked about in order.

[@jreiland07]

The postmodern stuff (like the Bel Air chair and all the other 90s stuff) is actually kind of neat when it’s not assaulting your senses like that Japanese street performance.

[@1perspective286]

I think the Backrooms catalogue is an excellent example of a blend. A fairly traditional story, people getting lost in a strange world, but instead of the haunted forests of old it takes place in what appears to be a modern building with a very post modern design and monsters wandering it.

[@timelessdays]

There's an interesting book called Hopscotch by the author Julio Cortazar which its main characteristic is that the story is not only non-linear, but it gives the reader the chance to read the book in whichever way they want or by following the list of instructions given by the author. It ends up creating the possibility of multiple endings or even infinite loops considering some of them can either have the reader restart the narrative or go back and forth between two chapters. It's quite engaging in its attempt to go against the usual story structure, even for a non-linear argument.

[@tomifost]

Glad you mentioned Yikes pencils. I havent thought about those in ages. Alot of the late 80's and early 90's aesthetic (MTV, Nickelodeon, commercial products for youth, etc) came from the Memphis group, which was an Italian design group named after a Bob Dylan song. They inspired and mis-inspired many creations. One being a very bizarre building here in Portland that people have post-modern feelings about.

[@MattMcIrvin]

My sister was so into Memphis at the time. She became an architect but a lot of her commercial work has really been in more of a neo-traditionalist mode, because that's what the market wanted.

[@heidihanna3131]

What building are you referencing?

[@tomifost]

@@heidihanna3131 The Portland Building. Its an acclaimed building thats also considered one of the ugliest in the world.

[@Vykk_Draygo]

@@tomifost I had to look it up, as I was unfamiliar with it. Call me crazy, but I think it looks interesting, not ugly. 🤷‍♂

[@callmeishmael5742]

​@@tomifost meh. Looks kinda neat. Not the best building, that's for sure.

[@bighillraft]

As a Jreg viewer I cant believe you didnt mention post-meta-super-hyper-post-crypto-modernism

[@vitaminluke5597]

Especially surprising considering JRegular was actually in this video

[@yartsdriver6140]

Well he's on his Normal Arc so it wouldn't make sense

[@XingAoShen]

@@yartsdriver6140 so thats whats going on... now i get the new videos hes put out

[@yartsdriver6140]

@@XingAoShen yup, I am in favor of his normal/ apolitical arc. Its kind of nice to see, unironically.

[@hawks9142]

​@@yartsdriver6140 the old arcs will be missed though. This is absolutely more healthy as far as people's mental state goes

[@adventureisntfar]

There are some youtubers who have used the term "post post modern" in their videos to describe the current cultural time we are in, but the term never made sense to me because I always understood the word "modern" to be current like its use in casual conversation. So thank you for this video JJ, this has really cleared up the confusion I had.

[@internet-browser]

I also used to be confused by that. Since "modern" has been attached to a specific time period, the term "contemporary" is used to describe art being produced in the present time.

[@luxtenebris7246]

You get pre-modernism when people live hard lives full of suffering, and they seek beauty, meaning, and holiness to justify it. You get modernism when people begin to believe that through technical progress you can end that suffering. You get post-modernism when all causes of apparent suffering are defeated, and you realize you still aren't happy.

[@loubaxo9339]

I wouldn't say the post-modernist era is characterised by unsatisfaction in a world without suffering. Despite all progress, rationality and technology, suffering still exists and that's the realization of post-modernity, there is no grand narrative progressing the society forward to a suffer-less world.

[@ryry_2720]

I think a good name for phase 4 of art would be Neo-Modernism. It occupies a space between the utilitarianism of modernism and ornateness of pre-modernism. You can see this in animation, where it tends to be both incredibly detailed (see smiling friends and rick and morty) but also optimized via things like rigging or motion tweening Edit: thanks for all the engagement but stop leaving multi paragraph replies bc I’m not fucking reading them lmao

[@1Rab]

Please no. Let's call it modern and call what was modern the 20th century.

[@devenscience8894]

Crap, I commented "Neomodern" before I saw this was already here.

[@theysisossenthime]

I see you are identifying as a Modernist here. You neither seek to define a new beauty of human creation nor move past a linear progression. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that; just making an observation. I don't think there ever was or will be a Post Modern era to move past. Post Modernism is really just a poorly named aspect of Modernism. We are very much still in the Modern era, and we probably will be for at least another hundred years (probably longer). I'm sure the next era of humanity and art will become as obvious as the differentiation between the Information era and Industrialization era (what you might call sub-eras of the Modern era). If it helps, you can use the concept of Pre Industrialization, Industrialization, and Post Industrialization. While there is certainly a period before the world or any particular nation was industrialized, there is no actual thing as Post Industrialization yet. That term is thrown around by some to try to define how the service industry or other business sectors have come to rise in advanced industrialized nations. So really, the term Post Industrialization is really just poorly defining a possible state of being industrialized.

[@internetazzhole7592]

The word Neo Modern is in competition for the next confusing term to call all art. but it already lost to this this dumb movement called Meta Modernism that is just a re labeling of Post Modernism. We should stop trying to simplify all art into a single label that covers up the history art. It would be like calling all music made after 1945 Jazz. Music (erase, all of rock's styles, Electronic music styles, Hip Hop's Styles, Concert music styles, and Jazz Music styles) Also we should stop using the word MODERNISM at all because it allows people to fake intelligence.

[@hcxpl1]

​@@theysisossenthime I agree with you in many points but also disagree in some key ones, I reckon. I do believe we won't actually move past "modernism" while things like a post-industrialized post-colonial world isn't a reality, but I do think we can see 'new' things being incubated in our time, which can either be considered another phase or expression of modernity, like hyperreality, but also as a prefiguration to something different, depending to how you see it. Also, you say that post-modernism is but another face of modernity but I feel it as being more of a result of the modernist forces and a tentative of pushback but without any structured ideological or conceptual opposition, which leads to opposition for the sake of it, but I also think that is more early works of post-modernism and things like Inside and Everything Everywhere All at Once show an embrace of maximalism and self-awareness whilst still being earnest - some call it meta-modernism but I don't see much of the conceptual difference, to me it is simply one example of people, specially generations that have grown with this new reality we have, trying to create something new but not being quite there yet - so I guess we will see what happens next.

[@vianabdullah2837]

JJ is the king of making you interested in cultural things you were previously unaware of.

[@trycoding_by_abidinghaze7]

I guess I am someone who likes pre-modern stuff. If you ask me people write fictional stories to escape reality so their being unrealistic is something I like. For example, harry potter is a story about a magical world that is absurd but we still like it because it lets us escape into that world. As for everyday objects like chairs, pens, etc, I would say they need to be functional at the core and should be made as beautiful as they can be without losing their function. I really like your videos they always make me think about different things like art, culture, life, etc

[@circleinforthecube5170]

everyday objects are already beautiful imo

[@whatsinameme5258]

Harry Potter is more modernist honestly. Compared to Lord of the Rings especially.

[@aeroslythe6881]

I just wanted to say that your final note is so sweet and elegant

[@abstractdaddy]

Fascinating video JJ. I'm not certain what the 4th era will be, but I think it has something to do with sincerity. Ironic distance is tied to post-modernity implicitly, we will see a challenge to that.

[@tllgestalt1942]

Eyyyy, imamu

[@linkspeaks]

This is the sort of topic that I wouldn't have even thought about, but here's JJ giving us the full run-down and keeping us fascinated for 20 minutes anyway

[@benjaminwatt2436]

The whole video was basically a summary of any entry level college course text book

[@linkspeaks]

@@benjaminwatt2436 Well, give JJ a little credit, he clearly researches this stuff, and this topic isn't necessarily taught in all college programs

[@PotatoeGod]

I love how simple,unique,and factual your videos are

[@andreasu.3546]

Simple and factual....must be modern, right?

[@PotatoeGod]

@andreasu.3546 nah his videos are not ugly

[@frisbeepilot]

I was really hoping the philosopher M. Szyslak's summary of postmodernism, "Weird for the sake of weird," was going to make it into this analysis. It did! Also, Timequake was my first Vonnegut novel. I read it thinking, "Holy moly, you can DO this in a novel?!" I was hooked... and kinda envious of Kilgore Trout.

[@ItsAsparageese]

HOLY SHIT I DAMN NEAR THOUGHT I MUST HAVE HALLUCINATED THE EXISTENCE OF TIMEQUAKE! I was into Vonnegut's short stories already as a kid but found Timequake in a library as a teenager and I absolutely loved it. Unfortunately that's virtually all I remember because I haven't reread it in like 20 years lol, but I'm so glad to finally hear ANYONE say anything about it and I'm stoked to have the reminder to read it again! Wow, it's gonna be wild looking back at something I read when I was 14 and pondering how I responded to it then vs now 😆

[@wodediannao4577]

It's basically how JJ described it. Everybody got sent back in time, and they all go on autopilot except the main character. So when the time catches up to when the Timequake happened, everybody forgot that they had to act and think, so there were all sorts of problems like car crashes.

[@ItsAsparageese]

​​@@wodediannao4577 Yeah that's about what I remember of the premise haha, thanks! But please don't say any more, as I'm quite looking forward to rereading it like I said above, so I don't want to be reminded of any real details going in :P

[@MattMcIrvin]

@@wodediannao4577 Except that to a large degree the novel isn't that story, it's Vonnegut talking to the reader about how he was GOING to write that story but became preoccupied with all sorts of other stuff instead. Many of his novels (e.g. Breakfast of Champions) have these sorts of authorial digressions but in this one it almost completely overwhelms the basic narrative. Which in JJ's analysis is what makes it truly postmodern.

[@eruditeidiot]

I kind of agree with you about there not really being a "next new phase" coming. I think the fact that "the art world" has become so democratized by social media and the internet in general, means that people aren't kept out as easily as they used to be. And, that also means that people without a university degree in art history are able to create master works of their own, find audiences, and make connections with them. Maybe the person who made an image that hits me hard enough to make me cry, doesn't really know what the term "post-modernist" even means, and I'm totally fine with that. I love that. That artist doesn't have to be a part of any special club, or check off a full list of classes, to still be talented. What they do know, whatever they are trying to say, and the skills they've learned are enough. And if there is no all powerful club, and no one can really gate-keep "the art world" anymore, then why would art move in any one direction? Why can't artist move in packs, like musical sub-genres only a few thousand people even know the name of, and still be meaningful? The Dream Pools can go on forever in their own direction, with their own swimmers and wonders, inspiring others of like minds, and my uncle might never see them. But that's okay, because he's got his own thing. I kind of like the idea that our culture doesn't have to follow a script, or a handful of voices. We can all find our own culture now.

[@erikharaldsson2416]

I like this idea, and it rings true. You could call that post-curation. I also see two main factors for how far/easy it is to take a certain kind of artwork into this new phase: 1. To what extent it can use the internet to scale. Things that are easy to distribute on the internet will have a more diverse expression and sub-genres, but it also needs to be something that is suited to the internet in terms of its slower pace, so while a novel is easy to distribute on the internet, its long format will make it hard to consume on the internet. 2. How easy and fast it is to create something by yourself or a small team. A youtube video like this one is easier than a feature-length movie with a lot of actors. More people involved will create more resistance to explore new ideas, and make it more costly to produce, and it then needs to appeal to a larger audience. Given the general fast pace on the internet, if you can do something alone, but it will take a long time, again like a novel, then you will only get very sporadic feedback, and are more dependent on any single item appealing to your target group, and that their taste hasn't changed too much from when your project started until it finished. The art form that will probably be the hardest to get past the gatekeepers will probably be architecture, especially in developed nations with a stricter building code and more NIMBYs.

[@eruditeidiot]

​@@erikharaldsson2416 Wow, good points! I realize I was really just thinking about music, imagery, games, or other smaller or solo projects, but I think you're right about the bigger ones. I mean, there are things like The Exigency which was a feature length CG film made by one guy on his home PC, but considering the fact that it took him 13 years to finish it I doubt that's really the future of the indie film industry. And for architecture there are games that let you build stuff you can share, but those are all really limited to what the game allows. Interesting points... Thanks for giving me more to think about!

[@ImBalance]

This is the best description of the distinction between these styles that I've ever seen! JJ's videos are always so insightful.

[@yellowedbasalt4901]

JJ back again with another extremely interesting video! Thank you so much for always bringing forth award winning/deserving videos on captivating topics, that aid in quenching the never ending thirst for knowledge. I know I can say this for myself, but also probably others aswell; I’m sure we would all know a lot less about culture, especially American culture, if it was not for JJ. Thank you!

[@lessefrost]

I think you're on the right track with the next phase of blurring lines between the big three. I see it in music too. A lot of extremes with sound design were dominant in postmodern stuff, testing what exactly still counted as music earlier on as the technology we were getting kept improving. These days the lines are way blurrier thanks to the amount of communication between musicians and experimentation with sound. A lot of music nowadays seems to draw elements from the postmodern (electronic production software with extremely modern synths), modern (most effects and popular samples still used now come from this era), and pre-modern eras (Music theory is the back bone of it all).

[@Boyd2342]

i really cannot get enough of your channel and the topics you cover, channels dedicated to culture in general are suprisingly rare in the KZbin space

[@lilioconnor139]

While watching this video, I kept thinking about this tweet I really like. It goes: "Haha, what a wicked and ironic comment bro. Now try saying something true and beautiful". When you spoke about the animating philosophy of the modernists and post-modernists, they all seemed so motivated by contempt. Did none of them want to make something that just made them happy? I think we lost something when we started denigrating kitsch as 'low-art'.

[@chrisgenovese8188]

This was really interesting! I agree with you that the next stage will probably be an amalgamation of the three previous cultural trends. I'm an artist and I love to combine styles into one picture. My favorite being Art Nouveau aesthetics with realism and surrealism. I love to see pictures like Renaissance figures with bursting colors and patterns incorporated. I would love to see fashion like from the early 20th century with current materials and brighter colors.

[@WanderingExistence]

This is such a great concise way of tying everything together. I've been trying to understand how all the different notions of architecture philosophy art were linked in notions of (pre)modern and postmodern... I was amazed to see this JUST came out! So clutch! Thanks!

[@KumoKumori]

I feel like while the pre-modern, modern, post-modern framing works well in describing the cultural trends of the past few hundred years it mostly serves as a convenient shorthand for the most recent few cycles of culture giving way to counter-culture. Every couple of decades we get aesthetic overhauls as teens grow up and want to be different from their parents, and I think the phases of culture are a side affect of that. i.e. it's convenient for describing styles currently, but the nomenclature will become very confusing as trends continue to change

[@George_M_]

Era 4, Nostalgia. >_> I prefer the utilitarianism of Modern. Postmodern is generally the most likely to break sooner rather than later. Unless you get in the Nostalgia era, which is just as bad but disguised as previous eras. Ultimately the irony is that premodern designs often naturally evolved to look the ways they did for actual utilitarian purposes, whereas Modern "utilitarian" forms were actually doomed by hidden inefficiencies. Look at Brutalism. I love it aesthetically but the concrete slabs degrade quickly, are hostile to use, and ooze toxic gas.

[@JJMcCullough]

I like this

[@LockeDemosthenes2]

Pre modern: ornate and literal Modern: minimalistic and abstract Post modern: ironic and nihilistic Also, I think it's very possible that these phases are cyclical (to a degree) and we'll eventually enter a new "pre modern" phase of culture, but elements of both modern and post modern culture will still endure. Culture is super complicated, it won't just be one thing or another. It could even be an entirely different fourth phase that we can't even conceive of. Amazing video btw.

[@NoConsequenc3]

they might be cyclical in aesthetic, but the nature of interaction deepens with age. The art means things to different age groups because they have different interactions with it. The Mona Lisa for you is not the Mona Lisa for me!

[@KarlSnarks]

Pre-modern is in itself a wide variety of styles and cultural shifts, and while not circular you can definitely see stylistic shifts, revivalisms and contrasting reactions. Like how the Renaissance was strongly revivalist but also appreciated simple balanced forms like modernism, and Baroque was a strong counter-reaction to the simplicity through strong dramatic poses/movement and diagonals. And that's only Western art, you'll find even more contrasts and similarities around the world. Also, in the late 19th century when modernist styles started to be explored, art nouveau is also an odd one, because it's ornate and romantic, but also celebrates new technological progress through their high-tech (at the time) methods and was very interested breaking away from traditional ideas and styles.

[@ALuimes]

What's really happening is art is in decline which is symptom of civilization in decline. If you think about it, modern and postmodern art is cheap and easy to create compared to classical art.

[@tedhammigthecampaign268]

This is the best breakdown of pre, post, modernism I've ever seen. You did a better job explaining the ideas behind modern and post-modern art than most art channels do.

[@mind-of-neo]

J.J i think this one the best videos you've done in months ❤️ i thouroughly loved hearing you talk about trends in Architecture, visual art, music, fashion, and literature all in one video. PERFECT!

[@up_down6012]

I notice the late ‘pload (upload) but you’re qual’ tent is always a highlight of my day

[@internet-browser]

Thanks, JJ. I think this is my favorite breakdown of post-modernism yet. I've always found it particularly complex and hard to define, but you did so eloquently with great examples. It's fascinating how our "internet culture" has rapidly evolved through phases of modernism and post-modernism. Take internet memes as artifacts of culture. Early widespread memes were simple formulaic jokes with punchlines. Over the years, they've become increasingly convoluted, self-referential, and nihilistic, with ambiguous levels of ironic intent. I find it difficult to keep track of at this point, but I think the future will continue to bring new "subcultures" defined by mixed and re-contextualized examples of these existing aesthetics and values.

[@marrottw8018]

The editing on these videos are awesome! Consistently captivating, very pleasant, and absolutely it absolutely brings up the already interesting video topic to a new level.

[@bolillo5013]

This is probably my favorite J.J. video I’ve seen. I love these kinds of categories that define cultural phenomena (although they are general, so you have to take it with a grain of salt). Also, I too think were in an age of cultural mixing, of different periods, ideologies, and places.

[@JREG]

So you’re telling me yoko ono is a bohemian postmodernist??? A boho pomo yoko ono????

[@blujaye.]

no

[@princeofenceladus]

Gregory we're gonna fight if you pull that shit again

[@princeofenceladus]

My apologies that was aggressive and unnecessary, I am a changed man, and I enjoy your wordplay

[@insertnamehere3106]

Yeah but I don't think we can blame Yoko entirely on the postmoderns

[@estebanmorales6487]

The thing about pre-modern, modern and post-modern culture is that they were all very elitist, even snobby. I think this "fourth period" is best explained by your own channel and your exploration of contemporary pop/consumerist cultural artifacts. Some modernist and post-modernist artists kind of explored this a bit (think Bauhaus or Pop-Art, for instance) but nowadays I think the consumer is king, and the consumer decides what is appealing or pleasing or interesting. As for what this should be called, I have no idea.

[@e_g99]

I think you make a great point. Everything is so decentralized now, it used to be you would have to find a rich patron or hope that you get in a gallery or something, now artists can make money through online commissions and stuff like patreon. Not to mention all of the people just making stuff for the hell of it and posting it online. I think the current state of the music industry is a great example of this, none of my favorite bands are signed to a label, they're able to make a living through sites like Bandcamp and merch sales instead of selling their soul.

[@audrey9561]

Interesting point, the consumer decides culture, not elitist artists or critics. That could indeed point to a sort of “post-post modernism”

[@jabrokneetoeknee6448]

The concept of "art" is inherently elitist. A cultural product which is designed for popular consumption is always deemed "commercial," and those products which flout the vulgar tastes of the masses to find approval among an initiated few are considered "high art." "High culture," "consumer/popular culture," as well as the awareness and rejection of popular culture, "counter culture," have been phenomenon for a very long time. Nothing about any of this is new. Unless you're suggesting that all high art is disappearing and that cultural products in the future will be all commercial? I don't see that ever happening. Not as long as class divisions exist, which don't appear to be going away anytime soon.

[@estebanmorales6487]

@@jabrokneetoeknee6448 it is, in fact, what i'm saying. It's Death of the Author, to the extreme. Yes, the division between "high" and "low" art still exists, but "high art" has been becoming less and less relevant since at least the 80's. There could be a link with neoliberalism, possibly, we would have to look into that, but most cultural consumption, even from the well-to-do, is produced by corporations for mass consumption. Most hings don't change abruptly, they evolve, and there's always a trace of what was before. What would be "high art" today? Maybe some litterature, auteur cinema, some pictoric art, yes, but their cultural impact and significance is well below what it once was, and it's mostly replaced by mass media, memes, toys, videogames, flash fashion, and what have you. I'm not complaining, it is what it is.

[@edwardcumpstey9061]

It should be called Dystopianism.

[@krgoodrich1]

Great video. I really enjoy how you can distill complicated subjects into something easy to understand. I think the steampunk aesthetic reflects the amalgamation of styles you are talking about as the successor to postmodernism.

[@west8715]

This is the best breakdown of these terms I have seen, it really helped me understand them a lot better.

[@sophie9419]

I think there has always been a tendency to mix and match depending on the individuals preference. As for the current era, I think it is the splintering of culture into more and more specific sub cultures that makes the most difference.

[@RTU130]

Hmm

[@JohnBrownsBody64920]

I've always seen the extreme end of post-modernism (like Sarah Kane and Alexander McQueen) as being pranksters. My best friend is a huge prankster and I find it humorous because no one is getting hurt

[@youbute4877]

thank you for the nice explanation hav e heard these terms on and off but never actually knew what they really meant - I didn‘t think I'd be able to watch till the end, not that it was boring, but due to my shortened attention span in our current era of YT shorts and Tiktok. So I am proud of myself to actually watching without distractions-

[@aeroslythe6881]

This is my favorite video you’ve made-it’s just so intensely fascinating and relevant and real

[@heretictom]

Your hair looks FANTASTIC!

[@vianabdullah2837]

An early example of a fusionist work of art that combines the three phases would be Neon Genesis Evangelion. It's post-modern in its bizzarre aesthetic presentation and narrative structure. Modern in the deep exploration of the characters' emotions and psychology, and also the futuristic setting. Pre-modern in its heavy inspiration from Christianity and other myths for its symbolism and worldbuilding.

[@solfeo8905]

12:53~13:37 That’s very sweet of you to remark upon. Friggin love it when something so endearing from the past has it’s seemingly elusive elements cogently encapsulated. Really gave me an ‘aaaww’ moment.

[@kimberlywilson7929]

Fantastic video! I didn't have a good handle on this topic before. I love your ultimate conclusion about a "fusionist" future.

[@benjaminrobinson3842]

What I find interesting about these categories is their time spans. Pre-Modern is literally thousands of years. Modern is fifty to a hundred years. Post-Modern is less than thirty, and already people are speaking about what will replace it. I think this is a reflection of recency bias -- we finely divide art made from a time closer to us, but everything from centuries ago gets lumped together in a broad category. Really now, isn't the art we see on Grecian urns different enough from Raphael that the two eras should get their own category?

[@JJMcCullough]

I guess the argument would be that the Greeks and the renaissance Europeans didn’t conceptualize themselves as doing different enough things.

[@amberhiggins6327]

@@JJMcCullough Didn't you think of the problems of the premodern before you done this video? For one Greek art has changed during its many ages. Also, ancient Greek and Roaman art are very different from medieval Christian art. Here are the different eras of the Greeks, Neolithic Period (6000-2900 BC) Early Bronze Age (2900 - 2000 BC) Minoan Age (2000-1400 BC) Mycenaean Age (1100 - 600 BC) The Dark Ages (1100 - 750 BC) Archaic Period (750 - 500 BC) Classical Period (500 - 336 BC) Hellenistic Period (336 - 146 BC) And there is the Roman era for the Greeks. And so, on before you get to the modern age. If you look at Greek art through the ages it changed with every age, so this whole idea of premodern is a false way of looking at history. You did say " Greeks and the renaissance Europeans didn’t conceptualize themselves as doing different enough " You're kidding? If it wasn't for the Greeks and the renaissance Europeans, we wouldn't have the world we do today. Also, the Archaic and Classical Greek eras was first used to talk about the changes in art, so saying they didn't do enough could only come from a person that hasn't study history. Too many problems in the Premodern.

[@ztl2505]

@@JJMcCullough That’s almost exactly how it was described in my art history course. It’s incredibly hard to overstate how much the changing social, religious, and technological landscape in the 19th century changed how people thought of and interacted with the world. Best way I’ve heard it described is that from the dawn of civilization until roughly 150 years ago the world was as bright as a candle and as fast as a good horse.

[@MattMcIrvin]

Art historians talk about all kinds of eras before Modernism. The whole idea of art striving for figurative realism is something that goes in and out of style, has done so for millennia. Medieval art clearly was not doing that at all, then in the Renaissance, what historians call the "early modern era", artists revived it partly from ancient classical sources, started caring about things like mathematically precise perspective and anatomical studies. But even within that you have periods when artists are using those techniques to portray pure flights of fancy (e.g. Rococo art) or going primarily for religious subjects or for social-realist paintings of peasants at work, etc.

[@robokill387]

@@JJMcCullough Even the art done in early medieval Europe is very different to high middle ages, which is very different to renaissance, which is very different to 18th-19th century academic, which is very different to impressionism and expressionism. It's recency bias and the arrogance of each age to assume they invented everything. I mean, just compare "the book of kells" to El Greco's "opening of the fifth seal" to "the garden of earthly delights" by Hieronymus Bosch, to any Bouguereau painting side by side and you'll quickly find out how diverse pre-modern art is.

[@petemartin6270]

JJ, our Internet Friend. Back with another banger, i see. What if everyone everywhere all the time thinks they're in the post-modern era, and the two eras before them were distinctly different (because they were) and really we're all just constantly grappling with our lives moving from Making Sense, to No Longer Making Sense (as in, the universal experience of aging)? hadn't thought it thru, just where my mind goes at first.

[@MattMcIrvin]

"I thought I was with it, then they changed what 'it' was!" --Grandpa Simpson

[@jkattack2640]

Rhystic Studies did a video a few years back on the Frames of magic:the gathering cards that kinda follows a similar trajectory. When the game was created in the 90s, the frames were all about flavor and had a bunch of issues that failed to convey information, but they were really pretty and on theme. As the game progressed, the frames slowly became more functional, cohesive, and legible. The video is focused on one alternative frame style meant to evoke ancient Egypt which rebels and goes fully into a post-modern style. And in the time since that video, they have printed many "showcase" frames with tons of unique styles that try to get more flavor, but still keep things functional (to an extent). We've had art deco, Norse myth, stained glass, even cereal boxes and a few cards in a fully-fledged conlang for the evil cyborgs that now has decoders.

[@bridgetwalsh6379]

Great work! I am also enjoying reading these comments and discussions so much!

[@MattMcIrvin]

I feel like a lot of artistic and literary works that could now be described as postmodern initially got lumped into the Modernist box. The Surrealists, the Dadas, writers like Beckett or Boris Vian. This stuff was going on really early. World War I gave a lot of artists a sense of the world being governed by howling anarchy.

[@randomotaku5500]

I wouldn’t really give Boris Vain that much praise.. He either actually wrote himself or just translated ‘I spit on your grave’ which is one of the most vile things I’ve attempted to read.

[@jesseleeward2359]

It is because the postmodern idea itself is... not a good one.

[@roneyandrade6287]

I find it disgusting that often the underlying message of post modern artists is that we should hate how much money they make out of selling their art. Repeating that message so often makes it so boring to me and I can't wait for it to be completely replaced before I die.

[@NIKINUKI_]

I think car design is a good microcosm of what is happening with culture in general. Cars since their existence have been cycling between more rounded and aerodynamic shapes and styles to more boxy designs, to the wave of retro styled cars from the early 2000s. And now just like culture in general in the last few years they have been converging on a new form which is a mixture previous ones in the form of aerodynamic shapes, but with sharp angles and details that break them up.

[@LuciusClevelandensis]

I like most of what you do, but you really knocked it out of the park with this one. Keep it up JJ.

[@joshuaschrimpsher7429]

5:30, I find this point interesting because nowadays I feel like a lot of people, myself included, seem to be taking the opposite opinion of this Mr. Wright, claiming that modern architecture is really bland and boring and we should return the the complex houses of old.

[@milantoth6246]

i personally think all eras have their place. As an example, inside the home, i highly prefer modernist styles which focus on function. Outside, I much rather prefer pre modern architecture. In books, I like modern ones with a coherent story but i appreciate when it has a moral standpoint. For fashion, i highly prefer the transition period between modern and premodern. Postmodern is the style that I like the least, but I think it still has its place in the world of art, and literature, though in a more moderate style.

[@brainwashingdetergent4322]

I completely forgot about Yikes pencils! They looked cool but were made from that MDF like material and had that extra soft and thick graphite.

[@superdimensionfoto]

I love old Victorian age houses with their many closed off rooms. Modern squared houses remind me too much of dystopian sci-fi movies from the 1970's and open interior rooms make it a pain to do your own thing. Want a quiet space to read a book? Good luck in an open space where you can see and hear others watching TV, having a conversation and making dinner at the same time.

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

I've heard this definition of art, and I think it resonates: "Place it on the side of the road, mildly damaged, where random people from the middle and working classes will see it without any context. Does the work of making it add enough value beyond those of its constituent materials that one of these random people will stop and try to fix it?"

[@therubicon]

Psudeoscience of cultural analysis. Excellent dig I love you JJ. You're always great. Unlike your nations parliament. They passed that silly internet law.

[@lizalazizaUA]

Wow, just wow. This video probably gave me the best bird’s eye view understanding of history of culture than anything I have read/seen before. Thank you, JJ!

[@CondredgeDole]

Fantastic piece J. J. - very thoughtful and thought provoking. I believe you are bang on with your analysis - very much a mashup age. It is exciting as a creator to have the freedom to explore all three of these philosophies and play with the exponentially expanding supply of source material to tell stories and create art

[@EthanM382]

Thank you for all of your great videos!

[@a50ftfall6]

So post modern is what we use as a category for weird stuff. Like one of the images for post modern art is a banana duct taped to a wall. And the architecture looks like a optical illusion.

[@canadious6933]

I love all types of art. I always believed art has no boundaries in time or categories. It would be nice to see more of a blend moving forward

[@bigeddy8377]

I just found you, I loved this video. I have kind of a nihilist outlook, that we’re squeezing the culture out of our society, artists retreat, give up, are suppressed… to put it kindly, I’m seeing the fourth category as an artistic dry spell of quiet despair.

[@juanportela9946]

In architecture I feel like we’re seeing a mix of some of the characteristics but also including some new aspects that concern these recent years. New designs tend to be urbanist, and modern, some attention to detail from premodern era and a desire to be practical and connected to nature due to climate change but also with some rebellious tones of the post modernism

[@theysisossenthime]

Yes! Thank you for mentioning Timequake. Vonnegut is one of my favorite authors, and that is one of my favorite books. When it comes to Post Modern art, I've describe this to my friends as art that still embraces a form to deliver on a function the artist wishes to fulfill; however, Post Modernist art is often considered as such because how it breaks or reworks traditional tropes and structures. Sometimes this can come across as wacky for wacky sake, something none functional, but it can also manifest as something culture might just call novel. And as it is with all novel things, they stop becoming such when imitated. This leads to what was an obvious Post Modern creation to one generation of people transforming into a seemingly Modern creation by another generation. Although I enjoy embracing the distinctions of Pre Modern, Modern, and Post Modern, I also recognizes that the differentiation is moot over time. But I'm a self identified Post Modernist, so what else would you expect me to say? If you decide to go pick up a copy of Timequake and love it, I entreat you to check out some equally Post Modern yet very different in style authors: Kathy Acker and Jorge Luis Borges.

[@ItsAsparageese]

I LOOOOOVED Timequake as a teenager (don't remember a thing about it now but excited to reread it) and honestly I've never heard anyone talk about it nor mentioned it to anyone who happened to be aware of it, so this video and this comment both brought me a lot of joy lol. Such a great writer. I like Vonnegut's short stories the most because I'm a sucker for that medium in his genre regardless of author, but I really need to revisit his novels and finish first-time reads on the ones I haven't got to yet.

[@dippysaurus3375]

Another awesome video! I love how straight to the point, clear, and factual your content is.

[@JJMcCullough]

Thank you!

[@stormRed]

Oh this is such a clear way of explaining it! I've always been pretty confused on what exactly those terms defined, but now I get it. I just love postmodernism so much... It's one of the things that excite me so much about art. Though I love the other categories too! As well as post-post-modernism where you make it subversive but also sincere and fun (by my definition).

[@Ska_fan_1996]

I think that the line of pre-modern modern and post modern is more blurred, for example J.J. brought up Virgina wolff as a modernist author, but I rember reading her noval Orlando, more specify a part of the book that was a single sentence that was like 2 pages long(it was technically gramticly chorect because she used semi-colins), and that seems much more post modern that modern to me where it feels very unessisery and not very functional but still served the porpouse of delivering an idea, just as that one cup jj showed that where the staw like went around the cup, but you still drank what ever was in the cup, sure it may be easier to just have a glass with a straw, but this is more styluses just as that sentice in Orlando was.

[@SuperNicktendo]

Having seen several Frank Lloyd Wright homes and toured one of them, they're absolutely beautiful. Even the grave that he designed for his mentor is stunning. I also have an Eames lounge chair replica and it just fits into any space.

[@lunganibiyela1690]

This was such a beautiful and insightful video. You've definitely gained a subscriber.

[@daveg.]

Use this as a guide for determining which of the three styles anything is. If you are to look at an object (a chair in this example) align your reaction to one of these following sentences and you will have your answer. 1. "That's a chair!" *Pre-modern* 2. "That's a chair." *Modern* 3. "That's a chair?" *Post-modern*

[@moredac2881]

I always wondered why artists started to care less and less about accuracy in the 19th century. Then my art professor said something along the lines of “the photograph was invented, so artists needed to do something different to stay relevant and keep their jobs.”-

[@internetera1523]

Even more important than that i think is economics.Before the 19th century artists worked almost entirely on commission (meaning they made work with a particular buyer lined up ahead of time) rather than on speculation (meaning they made a work and then found a buyer).Only afterwards regular people would be able to come up with and make art on their own

[@theinvisibleskulk4563]

I don't think that's precisely accurate. I blame the rise of art galleries open to the general public. Artists had to make art with no appeal to people not educated in the right fields to maintain the dominance of the upper classes over art.

[@eelvis1674]

That makes sense to me. I genuinely don't know what people find so impressive about pre-modern art. I'm confident that with enough practice and time I could perfectly recreate the style of any individual pre-modern artist. But I could never master the style of modern or post-modern artists. Because I'm not a genius.

[@UnprofessionalProfessor]

AI: 😈😈😈

[@internetera1523]

@@eelvis1674 Just a reminder that in Ancient Greece and Rome art was all about going super realist,but Medieval art was actually zainy and abstract.Then of course the Renaissance came and they thought of Greece and Rome as the pinnacle of civilization,so the art style came back until the more recent centuries

[@GrannySingaporePVP]

I think the 4th style is Digital. Digital art, music, literature, assets, currencies, etc give this style more of a collective expression rather than the individualist expression of the first 3 forms Needs a better name though. Digital doesn’t really capture the spirit of what I’m attempting to describe:

[@albertdumont]

Excellent video, J.J. This is definitely a classic of this channel category.

[@jokervynehahaha5568]

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy refers to these as the What, Why, and Where phases of society. Each characterized by a sentence. What do we eat? Why do we eat? Where do you want to go for lunch?

[@lobachevscki]

I feel that most of the times youtubers talk about the urinal they miss the opportunity to actually portray it as it is: a piece of trolling, probably the first shitpost in contemporary history (as Fantano called it). Although the piece does have the connotation you (and people in general) attribute to it, the reality is that for Duchamp this was a joke, and nothing wrong with that, thats the point. That part got lost to a lot of people and I think that is why people misunderstand its importance (at least in general).

[@CassieAngelica]

The thumbnail made me laugh.

[@radudeATL]

Guffaw 😊

[@estela6226]

Love the video! This scenario is such a challenge for my adhd lol

[@imrandharamsi3485]

The best part of Sunday is watching JJ's new video

[@KOZMOuvBORG]

9:30 example of Dada, which Carl Jung mentioned as "being too idiotic to be considered schizophrenia".

[@codybaker1150]

Dadaism is purposefully designed purposelessness, which I am entirely here for

[@staC-wh6ik]

Looks like Dadaism has found its realm o internet memes.

[@tristanogrambuckley4945]

I feel like mixing and matching counts as a style, personally. I really liked the term "fusionism" you used. I might adopt that. The magician Carisa Hendrix in her lectures has been describing "meta-modernity," which I feel very much reflects the same idea as "fusionism." I think I'll send her this, in case she hasn't already seen it.

[@stalman]

I like this video but I LOVE that you got a new mic

[@euducationator]

So basically Pre-modern: stuffy and traditional modern: simple and straightforward post-modern: weird for the sake of weird Is that pretty much the gist of it?

[@insertnamehere3106]

A little over-generalized and bound to piss off your average writer/philosopher/historian (myself included)........but yeah. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[@staC-wh6ik]

post-modern is more like deconstruction for the sake of questioning which inevitably leads to weird results. I'd say "overanalyzing".