The Three Types of 4x4 Traction Control - do you know the difference?

[@PatrickRich]

So refreshing to hear someone on youtube understand how torque is biased in open differentials, not just relying on tropes that are inaccurate or add no clarity. One point worth adding is that BTC doesn't simulate a locker in that a locker can bias torque across the axle and the BTC cannot, being constrained by the limits of open differentials. It doesn't matter much in vehicles with low range, but its a huge deal in single speed vehicles like subaru because quite of bit of the meager torque that is getting to the wheels is being taken up by the brakes and not used to move the car forward.

[@ronaldrrootiii6040]

I think it would be cool if they put more mechanical limited-slip differentials in things that have traction control so the traction control doesn't have to work as hard or as often like when there's wheel spin but the wheel still touching the ground it wouldn't even have to help then the mechanical limited-slip diff would kick in

[@Christoph1888]

Love how he stands in front of the car during the test.

[@stevecam724]

I wonder if he's still alive today 😂😂😂

[@SOS-School_Of_Survival]

Safety third

[@petercross8620]

Great video and well explained. You are right about the Suzuki Grand Vitara being a bit agricultural but what a great little car they are. Had one for 8 years and loved it. Tough, reliable and very capable. I now have an MUX but sort of miss my little Suzuki GV.

[@ozeltzex1]

Best Traction Control video on KZbin! Hands down

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks, please share!

[@genegeorge721]

This is far by the easiest explanation on BTC i have seen.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks please share!

[@tpv59]

EXCELLENT. 10/10. LEGEND Robert !!!

[@leopoldnine]

Another great vid👌 Not a lot of videos online of bushman's BTC (left foot braking), though.

[@L2SFBC]

I may cover that later. Not a technique needed in modern cars.

[@leopoldnine]

My apologies, autocorrect made me sound annoyed by your vid. Not at all. Edited now. Keep up the fantastic work 👏

[@kathyl67]

Great demo and explanations Robert :)

[@BorisEkner]

Good video. Thanks. If we look at the wheel as a clock many traction control systems only need 5-10 minutes spinning on the clock for the computer to apply braking power to the spinning wheel. Good examples are Mitsubishi, Land Rover, Toyota. The Jimny needs 4-5 full turns of the wheel before the computer understands what wheel to apply brake to. Meaning, in many situations the car comes to a full stop before the AllGrip system kicks in. This is why I today have automatic diff lockers front and rear. The option is to drive faster and at higher revs than comfortable to get the Jimny AllGrip system activated and behaving as intended.

[@L2SFBC]

Very good way to put it!

[@BorisEkner]

@@L2SFBC Thanks. With the double diff lockers from Kaiser I can rock crawl in 1st gear low range at idle speed with full control. That’s something one cannot do with the AllGrip only.

[@aron2199]

Great explanation and demo - yes not all BTC are created equal - Prado 150 is clearly better than friend’s pajero sport - but LR’s is next level

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Love my LR. Tops anything else.

[@toddstrelow1213]

great video. have tried explaining traction control to some over many years, but seeing it in action makes it so much easier. Dont forget to turn off your BTC in sand though.

[@L2SFBC]

BTC in sand is fine. ESC and ETC is not.

[@oliververnon8120]

@@L2SFBCwon’t it wear out your brakes? I’ve had manual transmission cars and nothing with any traction control except my parents’ cars but that’s beside the point. I always get crazy good brake wear, even though I drive on the canyons but because of engine braking I actually use my brakes occasionally just to keep them warm. Wouldn’t the constant use wear your brakes out faster?, EVEN WORSE wear just one of your brakes out faster😅

[@oliververnon8120]

@@L2SFBCOh and what does ESC do wrong in sand? I’ve seen videos of (Audi?) ESC helping make tight turns on snowy trail/road/driveway which is different because instead of carrying velocity that you want to keep you’re carrying speed that you’re stuck with.

[@L2SFBC]

ESC detects what it thinks is a skid so it applies and brakes and reduces power. This kills your progress. See my Sand Setup video.

[@sydneyraj]

When it comes to the truth of four wheel driving, you are an authority. Besides teaching the in depth information, you are also demonstrating that it’s ok to stand in front of the vehicle and touch wheels etc. Please take more responsibility for your actions and it’s impact on four wheel drive communities as we trust you.

[@L2SFBC]

Sorry I should have been clearer that the risk was managed properly. It is generally not good to stand in front of a vehicle but in controlled circumstances like that the risk was managed; you saw how much extra throttle was required to move. However I should have made all that clearer so as not to set a bad example.

[@sydneyraj]

@@L2SFBC thanks, you are a legend.

[@aelfwealld]

@@sydneyrajBoy I’m glad you cleared all this up. Someone coulda gotten runned over

[@clintchapman4319]

Great video Bob! Thanks!

[@L2SFBC]

Who's this Bob feller????

[@alklapaxida850]

that is a good description very good video !

[@L2SFBC]

Glad you liked it!

[@vanDeudekom]

Thank you Sir, this working of BTC was absolutly new to me. Ha thechnic, is it not beautiful, I think it is.

[@GrenadierMichael]

Another very clear explanation and demonstration, Robert. ✅ Not sure about the title though. 😬 Edit … Fixed. 🙂

[@ronaldrrootiii6040]

I love the idea of traction control with mechanical limited slip differential instead of open differentials. I think it should be more standard. You could imagine those times where wheelspin occurs but the spinning wheel is still touching the ground it's just not gripping quite enough that would be a perfect time for a torque bias to split to the other wheel because of the mechanical limited-slip helping traction control work less often and when it does work with a raised wheel enough traction control not have to work as hard once it initially grabs

[@L2SFBC]

Brake Traction Control is standard on all new 4x4s now, and has been for years, and was common before that. I think the first implementation was in the Freelander 1 of 1997.

[@oscarbollmann6244]

Thank you very much Robert. I found here the best explanation about traction control in its three types. In the user manual of the new generation of Ranger 2023+ the explanation is not clear and does not make the difference between BTC and ETC so I assume that when the 4L is connected the system only disconnects the ETC (and not the BTC). A big greeting from Mendoza, Argentina.

[@L2SFBC]

Glad it helped

[@andyg9991]

Great video Robert. Used to own the last model D-Max and the braked traction control was rubbish. It would brake the spinning wheel to the point the engine would bog down, but it still wouldn't send enough torque to the wheel with traction to move the ute. Also had a D40 Navara with a LSD on the rear axle and that was far better and never got stuck in the same place my D-max would get stuck. Now have a current model BT-50 (D-Max), but apart from a couple of muddy paddocks, haven't used it in 4wd enough to comment

[@Malc664]

That's very interesting. The LSD works great on my 12 year old Triton too.

[@DavidAnderson-x8s]

Awesome. Thanks for the video.

[@nicolasbednarz9085]

you are the boss!!!!!!! great vid!

[@G-force_Motorsport]

Good vid, and on a subject not covered enough normally, spot on! I love the Jimny, can i find out more about the build somewhere? Modern Land Rovers rely on it so much, that wheel articulation has little priority anymore, sadly. I drive a early Td5 Deefer, the first that LR fitted BTC on, you hardly notice it, seems to have very limited pressure it can apply.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, the mods are covered here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/paDLoqKPqK-habs I used to have a TD5 Defender and its BTC was basic but effective, agreed.

[@G-force_Motorsport]

@@L2SFBC Thanks! that should be good watching. What year was your old Td5? if it was 2002 onwards that was a better system.

[@L2SFBC]

2004

[@downhill64]

Would have been great to see all the other 4wds shown do the same trail the Suzuki did so we could see the comparisons between all the vehicles

[@L2SFBC]

Look at my Hill of Truth videos

[@johnallen3555]

was the perentie standard with no cross axle diff locks? - they do have really good articulation as standard, and this does translate into improved off road traction

[@L2SFBC]

I'm not sure if it was locked or not. It was well driven, momentum perfectly judged, and had a lot of flex, so probably wouldn't have needed it.

[@rogerklima]

amazing video

[@jameshoward9700]

An excellent explanation, though I was a little worried for you lest the tyres should bite at the beginning with the Jimny! The Lego model takes me back to my biannual 4X4 instruction - love a diff explanation! But a question - near the end you ran a Disco 5 and a Prado 150 up a steep hill - could you give a quick comment on how the 150 compares as I'm considering dropping some hard earned on one? I did have a D5 (great on road and towing, great traction, but too fragile and the lower suspension arms used to hang up in soft conditions - same reason I'm avoiding Defender).

[@einfelder8262]

It would be interesting to run the Zook with only front/only rear locked to give an idea of which end to lock (first) if you're not rich enough to do both (at once). I only have the front autolocker in my GU and have never wanted for a rear locker as well.

[@L2SFBC]

Ah, which end to lock first. "It depends" is the short answer on the vehicle and the terrain and the specific situation!

[@einfelder8262]

@@L2SFBC And whether you have an LSD in the rear that actually works, haha.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

What I want to know is Why does more power have to be added before BTC works? Why increase the revs? A decent system would brake the spinning wheel anyway at any revs - why wasn’t the TC working while you were standing in front? And love that the Discovery 5 was on street tyres and walked up. On a Land Rover you don’t engage 4WD as it’s permanent (all modern ones) and you don’t generally lock the centre diff either - it’s all automatic. MTS (Multi Terrain Select) is Toyota.

[@L2SFBC]

BTC shouldn't require more power to activate, and doesn't in your LR, but it does create friction and that needs to be overcome with a little power. Suzuki's implementation is a bit poor.

[@patroln48]

Great vid Robert! Excellent demonstration and explanation. 👍👍

[@workoutnomad]

beat video ever!!! stupide question but could suzuki not just update the cars with better software and it would perform better in future?

[@L2SFBC]

Possible yes

[@300bhpton]

Awesome video as always. Do you know what makes a good vs a poor brake traction control system? ie.e Land Rover vs /Suzuki. Is it 100% software and programming? Or is it hardware too? It makes you wonder if these other car makers ever test their designs or look at what other people are offering.

[@L2SFBC]

It's a combination of hardware and software. You need very accurate and precise wheel speed sensors to begin with as the software can't do much if the data isn't high quality. But high quality input is no good unless there is software to handle the data and that's the work of the engineers in vehicle dynamics or similar. When should BTC intervene, to what extent and for how long. Suzuki clearly didn't spend much money on calibration, or hardware probably, whereas Land Rover and Toyota have made an art form of it.

[@shootinbruin3614]

Robert, could you please explain why different brake traction control calibrations are needed? I (perhaps incorrectly) presume that a BTC program that intervened as immediately as possible and stopped applying the free wheel's brake as soon as it regained traction would be ideal for all off-road situations

[@L2SFBC]

Excellent question. I shall post the answer on my website as it's too long for a comment.

[@shootinbruin3614]

@@L2SFBC Thank you!

[@sailorsanjoy]

Very informative . Does that Jimny have a 40mm or 60mm lift ?

[@L2SFBC]

40mm

[@wozzie1492]

Cheers.

[@MrGoMario]

Cross axle lockers are good but also very dangerous!!! Especially if you fully lock the front axle. Do that, while climbing diagonally - on the side of a mountain and you will find out the hard way. Actually, it is the quickest way of writing off your vehicle and/or the driver ending up in hospital (or mortuary)...😮 Nice video, however you should have (at least) mentioned of that possibility...

[@L2SFBC]

It's not that dangerous if done right

[@leoanpk4393]

Do you see any fiat panda 4x4 in Australia, and do you think they could be a good low off-road vehicle?

[@L2SFBC]

Very few and yes they are

[@Bennyboy-dog]

I presume the subaru "symmetrical all wheel drive" is a Brake Traction Control system. Does it differ from Suzuki, Toyota, Mitsubishi Brake Traction control systems (aside from differences in settings)?

[@L2SFBC]

The Subaru Symmetrical AWD system refers to the fact that torque is always split equally front and rear, as opposed to the "drive the front wheels, rear wheels on demand" system used by other SUVs. I will shortly publish a video showing X-Mode in action which is their offroad system including different BTC calibrations.

[@351tgv]

@@L2SFBC - yep its basically a mechanical 50/50 torque split with a proper centre diff that is open that said you can't lock that differential, instead Subaru offers software solution of BTC combined with ETC (engine Traction control) re: X-Mode which is and is not the best solution since they also use CVT which causes the centre differential to over-heat (see many Subaru videos where the CVT caused all sort of issues), not saying its a bad option but nowhere near as good as it would be if the the centre diff could be locked instead.

[@Bennyboy-dog]

@@L2SFBC So it always drives front and rear axles. So the Brake Traction Control is just dealing with left right side of front and rear? Does the fact torque being spit equally front and rear affect the Traction control for each front or rear pair? What an absolutely fascinating exploration - thank you so much for providing that comment.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, always front and rear. BTC just deals with wheelspin across a given axle. The f/r torque split doesn't really come into it.

[@BorisEkner]

The Suzuki All Grip System … In normal driving it is slow to react, i.e., adding brakes to the spinning wheel. In general the computer needs 4-5 full turns before reacting. Other brands needs less than a 1/4 of a turn to react. Meaning, when the All Grip reacts the car is at a stand still. Solution 1 … Speed up, have a much higher momentum and you will have a scary drive but the All Grip will perform better. Solution 2 … Buy front and rear diff-lockers (of your choice) and you will enjoy a much more controlled drive at a much lower speeds.

[@L2SFBC]

Look at my Traction Control 4x4 video for exactly that

[@hiluxmax2709]

Tuff Hilux lurking in the background at 6min 20sec 💪

[@L2SFBC]

No, driver saw the Jimny and knew his car would be embarrassed so kept out of the way. A wise decision.

[@hiluxmax2709]

@@L2SFBC 🤣🤣🤣

[@phillips321]

Can you do a lego demo of a torsen differential please?

[@fabiosalerno1490]

La meglio soluzione sono i blocchi differenziali anteriori e posteriori meccanici 💪🏻🚜🔝

[@ozeltzex1]

Specifically in the Jimny, did you feel traction control was in gaged quickly on 4L vs. 4H? Any reason for this to happen?

[@L2SFBC]

It's awful - slow and harsh in any mode. Why? Cheap Suzuki engineering.

[@6226superhurricane]

you do want brake traction control disabled in sand even more so the quicker it activates. there is an almost constant variation in wheel speed on soft sand and btc just puts extra wear, stress and heat into the brakes motor and drivetrain. and btc is entirely unnecessary on sand unless you are already bogged. not as immediately noticeable as engine traction control but btc causes bigger problems after a longer time frame such as cooked brakes and cooked automatics and cooked brakes and automatics are both potential fire starters.

[@L2SFBC]

Disagree, you want it on in sand. Why wouldn't you? Think about what it does, braking a spinning wheel. How is that not a good thing? There's also minimal heat generation, you're slowing a single wheel not the entire vehicle.

[@6226superhurricane]

@@L2SFBC because unequal wheel slip is a constant thing in soft sand heat buildup is accumulated by constant brake applications which also generate near constant strain engine transmission and differentials. if btc isn't intruding you either have a slow reacting btc or you're driving on hard sand. this is not a theoretical issue i've come up with i live a few km from stockton sand dunes. uneven sand driving in or across ruts. access tracks with wombat holes (from high tyre pressure and compounded by btc) even if you get stuck in soft sand it's typical for opposite wheels to spin alternatively anyway. it's a product of one tyre digging deeper contacting more sand gaining more grip so it stops and then the opposite side spins. which is exactly how btc works. getting unstuck in soft sand is best done by gaining a bit forward then reversing back and gaining more each time. you typically can't spin your way out of soft sand btc or otherwise because in most cases you'll go down quicker than you go forward.

[@MrGoMario]

ESC is basically the opposite of BTC! The ESC is braking the slower rotating wheel (inside wheel in a turn), while the BTC is braking the faster rotating wheel. You understand why the BTC is braking the faster wheel but do you understand why the ESC does the exact opposite? What do you think? What purpose should that serve? I program ECUs and I can tell you, it is not easy to find a good balance between this two, opposing functions.

[@L2SFBC]

Yes, I do understand why ESC does what it does, yes agree the two functions work differently. ESC can also reduce braking force as well, not just increase it.

[@taph2o]

What about front wheel drive like rave 4

[@L2SFBC]

Same

[@skrus_1481]

I really trust the driver. ....until he won't run me over. I just want her to gently to increase the revs. and see what I mean. Brave he is! Give this man a medal:

[@wellofbeersheba]

3:40 I know my green Jimny looks like a Lego block, but this is going too far! (But a great vid, thank you)

[@alienwarrior]

Great video, thanks. I've got 2 Jimny's, 3-door JB74 and 5-door XL that have the same issue/problem! I'm assuming it's related to the Electronic Stability Control and I'm hoping someone can confirm. Mechanics have looked but weren't able to replicate the issue. Driving spiritedly on a bendy bitumen road in 2-wheel mode. Suddenly as I enter a left hand bend a loud sharp rumble sound is emitted (like running over ripple strips), the car pulls to the left sharply and slows rapidly. This only appears to occur on left hand bends. The XL did the same thing recently whilst going very slowly. I turned to the left off bitumen onto dirt and the car suddenly pulled hard left and slowed quickly. Had I have been going faster the car might have rolled over or crashed into nearby trees. Very unnerving indeed! Has anyone else experienced this issue? Can anyone suggest a fix?

[@L2SFBC]

Sounds to me like it's ESC. Please review my Sand Setup video which talks about Jimny ESC, and shows an example on sand, see if it's the same noise. The Jimny has poor ESC, simple as that, harsh, overly intrustive and ineffective.

[@mtnslyr]

Thanks for explaining different types of traction control. It’s confusing when ur supposed to disable traction control off-road but also enable another traction control, for Toyota its TRAC and ATRAC. And do the opposite in normal driving… what?? They’re both traction control!

[@L2SFBC]

TRAC is engine traction control, A-TRAC is brake traction control. Yes very confusing!

[@mojavedesertsonorandesert9531]

I rented one in Iceland, wish we could get these in the states! 🫤