The Timeless Children DOESN'T Break Doctor Who

[@linktothepast2432]

The biggest issue is a theme break. The magic of the doctor is he is a "normal" person who is a traveler passing through and trying to help out. Now they are the chosen one, which means that the doctor was born special which leaves a bad taste.

[@Croftice1]

Yea special. Like specially abused kid? I mean everybody dreams of being abused, experimented on and serving as a guinea pig to your surrogate parent, right? May I join you in your wish to be THAT special too? Where do people come to those weird conclusions? The Timeless Child was born with an ability and was discovered by a scientist. Said scientist adopted her and one day discovered this ability to cheat death. Then the "mother" did the scientific stuff and forced the kid to regenerate again and again and again to unlock that "power", to understand it. Succeeded and made it part of the new society born on the planet. Did the girl ask for anything of that? No. So yea, being a literal victim of abusement means you're someone special, a space Jesus basically. That's pretty solid logic there, I applaud whoever thinks that way. Bravo.

[@buhe1]

Not to mention that he was already the Doctor and had a police box Tardis before the 1st Doctor and his granddaughter stole it which made no sense. A old man who stole a magical box no longer has any meaning or that his companions never made him a better person because he was born better then everyone. Timeless Child origin is a cheap version of Superman because Chris was too lazy to even try to be original like doing the Gallifrey Falls again for cheap shock value. He just did what was easy for him and I think Russell knew what a mess it was which is why he had it where the Toymaker made a jigsaw out of the Doctor's history because it was a jigsaw. It went from being complex and unique, like what is his real name and why he left Gallifrey, to being plain and generic. I remember when the 1st Doctor first acted like he was a potential villain when the classical series started while his granddaughter kept him from becoming worse while when she left, that was no doubt when the name became a "promise", to her, that he would try to do good, that Susan created the Doctor while Chris cheapen it.

[@theoutcastboi]

I think it does fit, but I also feel it's one of those "Just because you could do it, doesn't mean you should do it" ideas. I also feel the existence of the Ruth Doctor (who is pre-Hartnell because why introduce a mysterious, unknown past Doctor, introduce a gap for more Doctors and then not put that mysterious Doctor in that gap?) undermines a lot of the 1st Doctor's arc, because he's so similar it now feels as though he was subconsciously becoming his old self again rather than evolving into the Doctor we know and love naturally.

[@hgwells1899]

Your Ruth story-logic is impeccable, Sir. Case closed! But it could be said that Hartnell WAS similar to his old selves when we first met him. An ex-Division type through and through. Colder. Tougher. The kind of man who would finish off an opponent with a rock. A hard ass like "Ruth." But through Susan, his interaction with his companions, he learnt some humanity. Humility, he learnt as the 2nd Doctor (post-Division). And that through each "natural" regeneration (no memory-wipe) he was finally permitted some personal growth, became the character we know and love. It's almost as if...as if it's all one, long, ongoing story. About one damaged person uncovering different aspects of themselves, or something! Imagine that ;)

[@morphicresonance4015]

@@hgwells1899 No, the butchering of the true continuity of Who did 'touch' (or rather torch) canon asunder. and the uploader's attempt to claim otherwise is still bollocks. Just look at B-WHERE's definitive exploration of the 13 fatal plotholes created by the Series 12 ruinous retcon, at kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5ScZpyMeNapl9E. Then notice the batmanmarch video answers basically NONE of it. Case closed, the retcon is nonsense.

[@dipassignment6037]

Wait is the ruth doctor pre hartnell? I thought thats still a mystery lmao

[@theoutcastboi]

@@dipassignment6037 I mean, it's not out and out confirmed, but she totally is, because why introduce a mysterious, unknown past Doctor, introduce a gap for more Doctors and then not put that mysterious Doctor in that gap? Also, Fugitive of the Judoon mentions the Division, who don't seem to be around in latter times. Everything just points to that being the case.

[@dipassignment6037]

The Outcast yeah I just figured this was one of those things where the writer didn't plan out things all that well (like in series 9 where you have random mysteries like the minister of war which I think was meant to be the hybrid initially?) and sort of dropped it by the time the series finale came when a different but possibly related idea came into their mind. Ik others have pointed it out but the tardis being a blue police box or even ruth being "the doctor" doesn't make sense because we know the series of events that lead up to it. But like you said, the main reason why it doesn't make sense to me is because it undermines the 1st doctor's arc so it might just me holding out hope for her being from a parallel universe or something where Gallifrey didn't burn idk.

[@kalebdiaz1671]

River becoming a timelord doesn't line up now, same thing with 11 needing a whole new set of regenerations if he has unlimited regeneration

[@macra1775]

Maybe the timeless child has traveled through the time vortex and gained her regenerations that way? It would work because River gained her from time vortex as well. I also have this theory that the timelords rewrote the timeless child's biology as well as erasing her memories. The pain we see when the memories are erased looks a lot like the chameleon arch. The timelords have also limited their regenerations to 12 so it wouldn't be diffecult to limit the timeless child's regenerations as well. Then the 11th doctor really needed a new regeneration cycle because he did not have unlimited regenerations. Besides, it is never clear if the timeless child really had unlimited regenerations. Maybe she only had like 30? Still, it's only a theory. It's ok to disagree if you like :)

[@Brogan_Balfour_Crescent]

@@macra1775 That doesn’t work because it’s implied that they have come from an alternate Universe or Dimension which is why they are the only person(s) in the universe from what we’ve seen that can “naturally” regenerate, Chibnall should have left it alone or made someone else like The Master (which would have been an interesting and unique play on ‘The Chosen One” concept) but no.

[@irrevenant3]

River was never exactly a Time Lord. Why don't things line up now? Races can develop regeneration from exposure to the time vortex (with a little helping hand from Madame Kovarian in River's case), or it can be copied from a race that already has regeneration. For all we know, the Timeless Child and/or its people originally developed regeneration from exposure to the time vortex or something like it. (The Guardian, perhaps?). As you point out, Eleven needed extra regenerations to survive so it's pretty clear that when the Doctor got turned into little baby Hartnell (a phrase I will never tire of :) ) they also capped him at the standard 12 regenerations.

[@irrevenant3]

@@Brogan_Balfour_Crescent Chosen One tropes are played out. Personally I prefer the way Chibnall did it, sidestepping the trope entirely. We don't know anything about the Timeless Child's origins yet other than that they were found by "The Guardian" portal, and we don't know how they have the ability to regenerate. We don't know if they're from another universe or dimension (so far we've only seen the Guardian link up different places in the Doctor Who universe). If they *are* from a different universe or dimension there's nothing to say that their dimension doesn't also have a time vortex and that's how the Timeless Child's people developed the ability. It's even possible that The Guardian itself is enough like the Time Vortex to grant regenerative abilities. If they're not from a different universe or dimension, again they might've developed the abilities from exposure to the Time Vortex or the Guardian. Long story short, we know very very little at this point, and nothing we've seen rules out Macra's theory (which is currently my personal headcanon also).

[@kalebdiaz1671]

@@irrevenant3 for me it just makes the doctor special through her origin now, where she came from, not who she is and what shes done, I honestly would not have as much problems with it if it wasn't the doctor who was the timeless child, Like take Joe Martin's doctor it does not lineup, How did she get a tardis that looks like that if hartnell's Doctor got that by traveling to 1963 and having the tardis get stuck that way, he gave himself the name the doctor when he left Gallifrey how can she have it if she predates him, It's just kind of frustrating as a longtime viewer to have some of those established facts kind of be rewritten to do a story that is kind of lackluster (to me at least), i just feel that stuff shouldnt be touched to much cause if i know the trick it isnt magic anymore Also i hated that they destroy Gallifrey again it makes the 50th kind of pointless now at least with their mission to save their home, have the painting Gallifrey falls "no more" only to have it destroyed in a less interesting way cause the doctor destroying his people gave it weight now they're destroyed again and it's less interesting hell the doctor didn't even seem to broken up over it to me like i kind wanted to see her mad, angry, hurt, just broken but didnt see that really In the wnd it just seems convoluted

[@Taveren]

With logic like that almost any fan theory can become a real theory, just because it fits doesn't mean it fits you know? Like you could say at the end of Harry Potter that it was all dream.- technically that would "fit" because nothing outright denies it from being a possibility but that choice wouldn't fit the general themes, tone and style of the story itself. It would feel like cheap writing and it would undercut all that came before-- the timeless child is much the same as that analogy that I made. It under cuts what we have been lead to believe. There is no real weight to it and the show hasn't shown any real evidence as to the timeless child being the way it is. This retcon is lazy writing, it is self-righteous writing and it is depressingly NOT doctor who

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

That’s the beauty of writing. It’s left up to the readers interpretation

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

Seriously the impact the Timeless Child has on the Doctor is massive, and I wish everyone wouldn’t judge so INCREDIBLY HARSHLY when next season we very well may be getting more repercussions of the effect this has on the Doctor. If you think it’s ruined Doctor Who then don’t fucking watch it. Let the people who enjoy it have fun, not tainting their experience with your own personal standards for the show. Just stop hating for the sake of hating

[@gsc4336]

@@landlighterfirestar5550 It’s not hating for the sake of hating. When you decide to show the entire origins of a character, you need to be prepared for backlash, especially when it comes to retconning. You can say all you want about, “If you don’t like the show, don’t watch it” but the trouble is the show is losing more viewers with each season. The bbc can say they won’t cancel the show but when viewers keep tuning out and merchandise sales aren’t what they used to be, it seems it’s the only course of action.

[@dasmysteryman12]

I hope you don't mind me playing the devil's advocate, because honestly, as a fan I haven't watched any of the 13th doctor episodes and this only came to my attention because it "broke" the canon. I'm still forming my opinion. Would it be that we didn't have any real evidence of the timeless child in the rest of the show until now because we're seeing all this from the Doctor's perspective? She didn't know she was, and her memory was erased, and because of all of this, we didn't know about it, until now? Like Oedipus Rex but the audience is as blind to what's happening as Oedipus himself.

[@auberginemanproductions1608]

@@dasmysteryman12 Good theory. That is true as the show revolves around the Doctor's pov.

[@loriska7405]

Maybe I missed something but I think that at a point, it was said that the Time lords were created by the time vortex, after this episode, i suppose it was a lie. But then, how can river song being able to regenerate if this power doesn't come from the time vortex? (Sorry for my bad english, I'm french)

[@ignfishiv]

tu es méchant.. haha jk I 100% agree with this.

[@loredfolk1069]

Its because river song was exposed to unshielded energies onboard the tardis which gave her some of the Doctor's DNA as well as the time vortex.

[@loredfolk1069]

But I assume that most of it was from the Doctor's DNA since the time vortex was a lie.

[@miguelangelgomezrivera4277]

@@loredfolk1069 Hmmm, but this will apply for the companios too.

[@loredfolk1069]

@@miguelangelgomezrivera4277 No, because the first time river and the doctor met with Amy and Rory, river song had shot the tardis which resulted in the shields to come down. So I also believed that Amy and Rory might have also been effected but since they died to the weeping angels then not.

[@redwolf6213]

Look I like your points. And honestly, I am feeling more at peace with some of the facts that you mentioned. However, Saying that Gallifrey is not important to doctor who, after 10 series were dedicated to undoing the time-lock off of Gallifrey and having the focus of the 50th-anniversary being that said undoing. Then Matt and Capaldi trying to find Gallifrey. And then to just destroy it like it wasn't important is just disrespectful to the continuity of the series. Gallifrey was ingrained with Doctor who's DNA. Maybe not from the start but it is now forever a part of its soul.

[@TheTardisDreamer]

I mean, welcome to how I felt about the 50th. Now, when I watch the RTD era I'm reminded that the Doctor's whole arc was for nothing. All that time delving into the grief and loneliness and moral greyness of the Doctor, and the really interesting moral quandry of the Time Lords killing themselves with their own ego... And the 50th painted Gallifreyans as one-note, innocent, completely helpless people, and used the "what about the children?!" shtick, which is the laziest reasoning imaginable. It completely ignored and diminished the moral complexities and weight of the Time Lords or their role in the Time War and their own death, and undermined the Doctor's entire arc up to that point. And as a teenager at the time, I found it beyond condescending. He also unwrote the Time War with a literal deux ex machina. A "wow, I'm so intelligent that my future self will come up with a solution!". Seriously? And after the Time Lords/ Gallifrey were brought back, they absolutely sucked and had no purpose like they did in the Classic series or the weight they had when they were lost in the Time War. They were basically a trophy left to gather dust. Gallifrey and the Time Lords were either completely ignored, a plot device, or a joke. Nothing more. There was zero depth or time spent on them whatsoever. The Doctor behaves like they could not care less they're back, making the whole deal of them grieving their loss and bringing them back feel so cheap. 11 and 12 still even gave the same lamenting speeches, except they no longer made any sense. The Doctor literally waltzes into Gallifrey when he does go there, is treated like a superstar, and does whatever the heck he likes. The people in charge of Gallifrey are treated like absolute bumbling idiots with no depth whatsoever. What did they actually lose by killing them again? Pretty much nothing. They were completely wasted, and storywise they were trapped in purgatory. There was nothing there for them to do unless it was for a convenient plot point. And it actually gives the Doctor back some of that grit they lost, and there's nothing to say the Doctor won't fight for a way to save Gallifrey again. For all we know, the Doctor could also come from a Time Lord civilisation in another universe. The possibilities are endless.

[@kobeangelesdamelio]

I still believe that this undercuts a lot of the already established lore. Just because the Morbius thing was said to be the Doctor, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea

[@indedgames4359]

You Sure you justcarent butthurt that Fan theorys wher wrong

[@DustinFerriss]

If u actually watch the episode with Morbius, it's heavily implied that the faces were past regenerations of Morbius, not The Doctor

[@kylerees3491]

​​@@DustinFerriss it's literally the opposite Morbius says 'how far doctor how long have you lived" and it shows the morbius faces

[@DustinFerriss]

@@kylerees3491 just watched the episode, as he asks how long The Doctor has lived, we see the 3rd and 1st Doctor on screen, then when the other faces show up morbius says "your puny mind is powerless against the streignth of morbius" then morbius walks away and The Doctor passes out

[@kylerees3491]

@@DustinFerriss well we know it was intended for the faces to be the Doctor and now they are confirmed to be

[@richardd9938]

"Whats with Chibnall and kids falling off cliffs". Took me a few secs to work out but that made my day haha.

[@johnnysmith5770]

The fact that you even have to go to all this effort of “well perhaps” and “maybe this happened” for 20 minutes etc etc shows how bad this is 😂😭.People are pissed off because for 50 odd years the doctor has been the renegade who escaped the authority of gallifrey to travel the universe.Making him this important is whats ruined the show for people

[@conscienceaginBlackadder]

Exactly right.

[@irrevenant8724]

The Doctor still *is* the renegade who escaped the authority of Gallifrey to travel the universe. Just turns out (s)he's been doing that for longer than we thought. This doesn't make the Doctor particularly important. Seasons 6 and 7 made the Doctor annoyingly super-important. This is a blip by comparison. IMO the main reason Season 6 and 7 got away with it and The Timeless Children didn't is that Moffatt executed the stories better while Chibnall (a) screwed up the execution of this story, and (b) had two fairly poor seasons leading up to this so had used up all the fan's goodwill. If Chibnall had *nailed* the execution and given us a thrilling story, I don't think the backlash would've been anywhere near as strong. But he didn't - he gave us a season finale that's 50% the Master showing the Doctor a Gallifreyan Powerpoint slideshow. -_-

[@johnnysmith5770]

@@irrevenant8724 i agree that this business of making the doctor more important than he should be has been happening for such a long time,i mean if you look back to season 26 and what would of been 27 with the whole cartmell masterplan idea (which im not a fan of and im glad it never fully got developed).Youre also right saying this started in seasons 6/7,i just think that now the doctor has effectively been made a God and one of the founders of the timelords etc,it therefore makes the character less rebellious. People like their heroes to be relatable in some way,now of course making an alien with a time machine relatable is quite a stretch,but the fact the doctor was just another insignificant timelord who’d had enough of authority and decided to explore the universe and make it a better place,is what made the character so inspiring,and now that has been taken away (Until big finish come and sort it out anyway)

[@irrevenant8724]

@@johnnysmith5770 Did Ruth not seem like she was rebelling? :) Personally I don't think this makes the Doctor a God. It doesn't even make her one of the founders of Gallifrey - it makes *Tecteun* one of the founders of Gallifrey by using the Doctor as a convenient lab rat. Unlike season 6 and 7 this change doesn't aggrandize the Doctor - it mostly just makes her someone with a longer history than we thought, and more mysterious origins.

[@genexican9214]

Being the Timeless Child doesn't make The Doctor as important as people are making it out. She's not some Jesus figure because of this reveal, since at the end of the day, the Time Lords are the ones that took all the glory for themselves. They abused, mislead, and controlled The Doctor from the very beginning, and sewed together a story of how great and legendary they are to cover their tracks, which is very on brand with how they've always been portrayed. Plus, the fact the Doctor escaped Division to venture out into the universe on her own still makes her a renegade. Only instead of running away from her own people and their laws against tampering with time, she ran from the people that had direct control over her life and it's trajectory, which arguably makes her even more of a renegade than before.

[@di7770]

Not a fan of The TC, however chances are this will be retconned anyway, whether that's by Chibnall or his successor, so it's not a major issue.

[@joelmole3157]

Xtra Spice Mikey Just see where he goes with this first because it could be interesting. If he does a Hell Bent and renders it pointless, then you can punch him

[@muisverriet]

@Xtra Spice Mikey Wow what a totally normal reaction to something you don't like

[@90sArchive]

@@muisverriet Totally normal for manbabys. Watch out! He's 5'11

[@HarrisonProductions]

@@90sArchive 😂😂😂

[@Ordoabchao-x9k]

@Xtra Spice Mikey shoot* would be a better fit for what he has done

[@lapelcelery42]

Now the Doctor has infinite regenerations, there can no longer be any concern for the safety of the character, and any time anyone is ever in danger, the Doctor must morally ALWAYS self-sacrifice to save anyone else from harm. That's going to make scripts make a lot less sense.

[@landlighterfirestar5550]

One quote, from Tennant: “Even when I change it feels like dying” Who ever said the Doctor could regenerate infinitely? We just don’t know HOW MANY times. Constant self-sacrifices are something the Doctor does all the time, fully believing they will die, only to be saved so they can continue to save the universe, and there are still things that can permanently kill Timelords

[@LuckyRabbit234]

Who’s to say the Time Lords didn’t limit the Child’s regeneration capabilities?

[@irrevenant8724]

Like this video points out, "The Time of the Doctor" makes it clear that the Doctor had the standard 12 regenerations until Smith, plus the extra regenerations given by the Time Lords in that episode. Presuming it was the standard 12 and regenerating into Capaldi burned through one, then she currently has 10 left. The Doctor *had* infinite regenerations but that clearly ended when he got turned into infant Hartnell.

[@Discrimination_is_not_a_right]

I'm sure it still hurts.

[@lapelcelery42]

@@irrevenant8724 Does it make that clear? Can that not just be explained by characters being wrong?

[@HamishsRobot]

As a fan of Doctor who since 1980, I agree that the timeless child doesn’t break the show. It just makes it unbearably fucking stupid. Until it has been retconned out of existence, I’m done with this bullshit. PEACE

[@irrevenant3]

LoL. That's an entirely reasonable position. Personally I don't feel strongly about the reveal one way or the other, I just want the show to have well-written and interesting stories again. They could do some really interesting things with this reveal. Given current track record the odds are against it. :(

[@HamishsRobot]

@@irrevenant3 yeah I have calmed down a bit now, although I stand by my statement. I agree, the show just needs to tell good stories. Branch out a bit. All of Time and Space, but the Doctor just keeps hanging out with British people from 21st century Earth. Classic Doctor Who had companions from throughout Earth’s history, they travelled with Robots, other Time Lords, Aliens. Even on a very modest budget, the production team made it feel like The Doctor really was gallivanting through space and time.

[@irrevenant3]

@@HamishsRobot One thing that's frustrated me about the last couple of series is: Firstly, I wish they'd chosen three companions who weren't all from present-day Sheffield and already knew each other. But given that they did, they chose characters from an interesting variety of backgrounds: Working-class young man with a disability. Laid-back retiree mourning the loss of his wife. Ambitious young police officer. By rights we should be getting a clash of different perspectives on every new thing they encounter. That way interest and drama lies. But we didn't. They just rapidly formed into this inseparable and largely indistinguishable mob that practically might as well have been one character. >_< Such a missed opportunity. And one they can't get back now that Ryan and Graham have left.

[@HansDester]

@@irrevenant3 I felt this same way. I kinda wished it was just Yaz and Graham. I felt like it would have been better. Not Ryan and Yaz because they would have made a love story out of it and that would not have worked because the were all terribly awkward(not in a good way) actors. Only Graham was a good actor by given terrible direction. Especially with his white guilt written until his character. There's a way to tackle identity politics and that's not how you do it.

[@irrevenant3]

@@HansDester I don't recall any white guilt re: Graham. What are you referring to?

[@GusMcGuire]

I appreciate you taking the time to state your case but I think you're undergoing a lot of logical contortions to make this fit, including elements that aren't officially canon or easily apparent to the casual viewer. For example, if Ruth is between the 2nd and 3rd Doctor (which I actually quite like the idea of), why is Matt Smith worrying about being in his final regeneration? If - as you suggest - the Timelords are able to add/remove a single regeneration, this seems oddly specific, when they later grant him an unspecified number of future regenerations (by the way, I've never been happy with the way Steven Moffat handled that whole regeneration cycle question in such an anticlimactic manner). Also how exactly are the Timelords now able to control how many regenerations the Doctor has if he/she was the original source of all regeneration? Shouldn't the Doctor therefore be able to control his/her regenerations? At the end of the day, there are two reasons for the Timeless Child storyline: 1.) To deliver a social message that all genders and races are equally valid - a very important social message, but delivered with all the subtlety of a brick in the face. 2.) As a vanity project for Chris Chibnall, so he could say: "Look everyone. I left my mark! I REWROTE Doctor Who!" Anyway, all that said, thanks for taking the time to put out this video. I don't entirely agree but it's interesting to hear a different viewpoint. And pay no attention to those idiots posting insults. Just because we may disagree is no excuse for rudeness.

[@foxydev4056]

I agree, I want those who hate series 11 and those who love series 11 to co-exist peacefully.

[@AndrewChapman]

@@foxydev4056 I do too, unfortunately there are many fans who think otherwise.

[@Croftice1]

Ruth is before William Hartnell tho. Why she has a police box TARDIS. Perhaps it's not why she has it, but why Hartnell's Doctor has it. It's implied, that it is the same TARDIS, I mean every regeneration uses that same TARDIS, it's like the Doctor is the same individual in each regeneration, his/her TARDIS is also the same ship everytime. Since Ruth worked for the Division, perhaps the Division after forcing Ruth's incarnation into baby Hartnell stoved her TARDIS into the museum, or workshop, or where the 1st Doctor took her from. The TARDIS took likeness to her previous form and took the Doctor to the 60's, where she again disguised herself as a blue police box and "got stuck in that form ever since". It might seem weird as a wall of text, but it's perfectly imaginable.

[@keychainere]

The fact it needs defending, clearly shows there’s an issue with it in the first place.

[@KhiemNguyen-ly1wz]

I mean, nothing is really free from criticism, so I kind of disagree with that. I think everything can be defended. It's just a matter of how much you have to stretch in order for it to work, which of course, determines how big of an issue something have. This twist definitely have a shit ton of issues though with all of that said.

[@ms.honiqualisha4529]

So here is how you fix everything and save the show. The Master is the Real Timeless child and not the Doctor. Everything solved.

[@curtismckenley8706]

Agreed

[@ericguest4316]

Peter pratt deletes your theory

[@robertmeredith1947]

Would explain why he wont just die

[@sonnykingcomposer]

I disagree, I really hope they stick with this.

[@kai_824]

Makes sense, he always seems to come back no matter what. And hes always just kinda a dick to everyone around him. The one time he tries to be good was killed off by himself. So like it makes sense, he wouldn't want his future self to side with the people he hates so much

[@richie7624]

The whole message of the show was "anyone can be special" Now apparently you need to be demi-god to be special

[@DoctorWhoHugh]

but the Doctor isn't a demi god, she was still limited to 12 regenerations and stole a TARDIS to run away. all citadel dwellers were limited to 12 regenerations, therefore so was the Child as they lived in the citadel with Techteun.

[@trashmammal9430]

@@DoctorWhoHugh imagine defending the worst part of dr who

[@rocklemillion8041]

@@DoctorWhoHugh Yh I call bs on the god of the time lords with infinite regenerations being in any danger ever

[@lonellfletcher]

So when The Doctor was a Time Lord, they were "anyone"?

[@trashmammal9430]

@@DoctorWhoHugh if you don't understand why the timeless child is bad, stop watching the show, I'm usually against gatekeeping but it's justified here

[@jonny3874]

As far as I'm concerned, this awful episode isn't canon anyway, so none of this really matters. The Doctor died at the end of 'The Doctor Falls.' Either that or we don't know how his regeneration in 'Twice Upon a Time' concludes, and the mystery remains. Retconning the entire Chibnall era is the only way to preserve the Doctor Who we've always known. I like the 13th Doctor, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. 'The Timeless Children' doesn't just break Doctor Who, it absolutely urinates all over its corpse. I respect those who like it, but I personally won't be watching any more new episodes and the canon ends for me with Capaldi. RIP Doctor Who, at least you live on in my DVD collection... :(

[@wispa1a]

Thankfully someone's opinion and view doesn't change anything.

[@connelwhitemane]

Sorry but using the Morbius argument doesn’t hold any water as the other images were from Morrbius as he was also a time lord

[@batmanmarch]

Even though Philip Hinchcliff has said they were meant to be the Doctor and now the TV show is explicitly said they are the Doctor... So actually it's the Morbius theory that doesn't hold water anymore.

[@ftumschk]

@@batmanmarch Indeed, both Hinchcliffe _and_ Robert Holmes were quite clear that the Morbius faces were meant to be pre-Hartnell Doctors. Furthermore, it's obvious from the dialogue and direction that this is exactly what we're seeing on screen, i.e. Morbius is gloating as he drives _the Doctor_ back to the start of his life: MORBIUS: How far, Doctor? How long have you lived? [Troughon and Hartnell's faces appear, then the first of the other faces] Your puny mind is powerless against the strength of Morbius! [The rest of the faces appear in sequence] Back! to the beginning! [The machine blows up].

[@michaeltownley9144]

No - we saw Morbius at the start of the battle of wills. His face appeared first, and THEN the Doctors appeared. It was obvious what the intention was.

[@irrevenant8724]

As ftumschk and Michael's discussion indicates, the whole Morbius sequence was ambiguous enough to go either way, and there's arguments both for and against. It actually doesn't matter that much because the Timeless Child thing works fine whether those faces were the Doctor *or* Morbius.

[@purefoldnz3070]

@@batmanmarch Well no when Clara jumped into the Doctor's time stream and saw all his past incarnations not including all the timeless child lives it pretty much sinks the continuity completely. That's a whoopsie.

[@Skulduggery_TV]

One of the reasons this ticks off a lot of fans, myself included, is because it gives the doctor something that was never needed. An origin story. Almost every aspect of the doctor's past is shrouded in mystery and I always felt that it was one of the most appealing things about the character. Even the bits and pieces we see of the character's past in the T. Davies and Moffat runs are somewhat vague or we're never given full details. Giving the doctor a full origin story, I feel anyways, takes a lot away from the character that made the doctor good and intriguing. The infinite regens really takes the danger factor out too. Back then we hated to see a doctor go for two reasons. 1) it meant we were saying goodbye to an incarnation we grew attached to. And 2) it meant the doctor was down another regeneration out of 13. Now it's just the 1st reason. No more fear for the doctor's safety anymore because she's/he's immortal pretty much. Doesn't really help that the writing has gotten increasingly worse. Like I wasn't a huge fan of every episode in Moffat's run but at least there were a good number of episodes that could be re-watched and enjoyed. With Chibnall there's nothing but card board characters and a doctor incarnation that doesn't feel like the doctor. The title sequence and theme are good though.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Does it not? All we have is originator of regeneration on Gallifrey and is from another race than them. Can't be more mystery than that. Nobody said anything about infinite regens, just that there is more than 13. Could be another 13, or another 13000. We've been in that mentality since Time of the Doctor. Aside what the number is, regeneration is still the death of a person in effect. End of Time placed importance on that fact.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@ohwell5542 Firstly, R.E. TTC - nobody says the Doctor is immortal. That is pure presumption on your part. R.E. Name - firstly the Doctor died in the process, secondly there's nothing to indicate that can be done at will, it was a sideeffect of that particular regeneration (they have a history of varying after all...) and thirdly, it's made clear enough that if the civilians hadn't been in doors then they'd have been severely hurt and possibly even killed. Regeneration energy is not to be trifled with. And for the last part of your comment, nobody is positing the Doctor as a chosen one. Next of all, the Doctor isn't prophesied as a chosen one or deified as one. And nor is the Doctor going to take that on as a mantle. Doctor is still as mortal, vulnerable to harm and death, and as fallable and carrying as many abilities as has been for many years.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@ohwell5542 "never explicitly stated, but that's exactly how TTC treats it." Erm, no, I rather don't think it does. There's only two implications of such a thing since the limit was established - and the one that's in this is that the dead Timelord corpses in the Cybersuits can be forced to continue regenerating. That's in keeping with the first - in Five Doctors, where it's noted that Rassilon's dead body is actually in some state of perpetual bodily regeneration. Your second paragraph actually points out that this is not how TTC is treating it. It's not moved that goalpost at all. Chibnall has set out to give a method from which people can add a touch more mystery to the Doctor, and also sort out some of the messy contradictions (whilst also leaving a get-out clause for those who are adverse to such changes). Also, I hate to say it but I'm amused by your statement that Chibnall doesn't appreciate lore given that's left enough nods to cover a wide variety of stories from NuWho and of course, Morbius, Five Docs and Trial too. And we know that Rassilon at some point did weaken the Timelord version of regeneration. To firstly give himself an advantage over all others. And then allow himself to push further beyond that, so that in death his body would preserved in such a way of effective immortality (though it's hardly much of a life...)

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

@@ohwell5542 I did a whole thread on the lore that he weaved together. Link is kicking about in a comment on here. It disregards it on no more a degree than the Valeyard disregards any of the Doctor's arc. I.e. to no degree. She learnt her lesson and stood up for the Doctor. Sacrificing herself as you point without witness or reward. For her as a person, that's an effective ending that's not taken away from by the actions of a different successor. (Actually, thinking about that logic you have there, that follows a rather pessimistic view of life so I hope you don't think that way about real life and those who have come before and will come after you on this planet...) Rassilon knows, yes. He's the master of coverups and the most likely culprit for hiding away the Timeless Child. He certainly was happy to double cross Omega and horde perpetual regeneration in death to himself. But he's smart. He's not gonna admit that the Doctor is anything more than a regular Timelord in front of ordinary soldiers - especially not when those ordinary soldiers are turning against him. Saying anything about the Doctor's nature/origin as the Timeless Child would probably only further shoot him in the foot. Infact, an interesting retroactive way to think of that line is him raising the question so that when he does use the glove on the Doctor, neither the Doctor or the soldiers will find it suspicious if the Doctor goes for more than 13 rounds with the gauntlet. Afterwards, he'd probably have just said "Oh I guess we gave him X many then..." to cover that.

[@TueSorensen]

An origin story is ALWAYS needed! Otherwise the story we get is really only half a story. Knowledge is ALWAYS better than mystery.

[@lauradelarosa8624]

My main question is: what about River Song? Sometime in the show they said that regenerations could come because of time travel, and because River is a "daughter" of the tardis she can regenerate. With this episode, It doesnt make sense right?

[@christinewhoyt]

Yeah, I agree with that. But wimey woobly stuff I guess.

[@macra1775]

I have this theory that the timeless child has traveled through the time vortex and gained her regenerations that way. So both River and the child has gained regeneration through timetravel. Still, it's only a theory. It's ok to disagree :)

[@Croftice1]

@@macra1775 Exactly. Who said, that both ways can't coexist? Who said, that the cover story Timelord high ups came up with wasn't based on truth? Why do people assume, that one contradicts the other? No one ever said, that it does. The Timeless Child is, where the native Gallifreyans got the regeneration from and made themselves into Timelords. But River is a child born from being conceived aboard the TARDIS in flight through Time Vortex. Same stuff, that the Timelords used as a cover story for themselves. We don't really know, which stuff happened since the creation of Timelords up to the present day, as not everything was recorded in the Matrix and some stuff, that was, was also deleted (as the Master pointed out). Maybe something happened, some event, that was discovered, recorded and later considered as a cover story for the Timelords, then any record of it deleted. Like sure, it could probably pass as a fan theory (at best), but why not? Do we know about every single event? We don't. Who's to say, that it couldn't happen exactly like this?

[@IsaacWhittakerDakin]

Chris Chibnall has killed Doctor Who, just like Steven Moffat killed it, Russell T Davies killed it, John Nathan Turner killed it, Graham William's killed it and Philip Hinchcliffe killed it. So nothing's changed really! 😂

[@gazda69]

They ruined the show the moment the opening title sequence first aired! I was excpecting to see Doctor Oho, wtf is this Doctor Who crap?!

[@BernardJKD]

And thus the gaslighting crew start their retconning.

[@JayDragonarcProductions]

Yeah, of course... All went wrong when they stopped doing that dum diddly dum music and start doing plot if you ask me ;P

[@IsaacWhittakerDakin]

@@JayDragonarcProductions When the bbc announced a new science fiction series in 1963, I knew it was gonna be ruined!

[@IsaacWhittakerDakin]

@@MichaelM28 Hey babe I missed ya!

[@tasha7726]

Listen to this young man making lemonade from a whopper of a lemon. I admire your optimism.

[@glorious2538]

But why would they give the doctor regeneration energy IF the doctor WAS the source of regeneration energy?

[@DustinFerriss]

7:52 explain how they can give a "12 regeneration limit" to the person who is born with the power of unlimited regenerations, pretty sure they couldn't "limit" the regenerations if The Doctor was the timeless child, and if The Doctor is the timeless child, they wouldn't need to grant more regenerations to The Doctor, Timeless Child does break Doctor Who, however if The Timeless Child was actually The Master and he thinks it's The Doctor, or The Master is lying to fuck with The Doctor, that would make sense, especially because The Master has lived past their last regeneration time and time again, so that would add up, oh well though I guess the lore doesn't matter anymore, I'll miss this show

[@tequilaron2359]

Dont know how big of plot this is but if the Gallifrians have two hearts then how does the Doctor have two hearts if he/she is not from Gallifrey

[@dredd1981]

...because chibnall thinks that canon and continuity is something that happens to other shows.

[@nicholasdickens2801]

I love how some people say it doesn’t contradict anything. Sorry but it does. No matter how you try to ram it into Who lore, it doesn’t fit in. That’s nothing about the story being good or bad. It contradicts everything.

[@batmanmarch]

You say that, but how? Literally everything that happened since 1963 STILL happened. The Doctor is still a Time Lord and still comes from Gallifrey, they just also happen to have additional origins further back that we were unaware of. You could argue that the Spearhead from Space contradicts 60s Who because in 60s Who the Doctor didn't have two hearts.

[@wispa1a]

If it didn't evolve the series would have died years ago.

[@LittleAsp]

declan tideswell ooh, you’re hard

[@bantabury]

@@batmanmarch Personally I don't like the idea of The Doctor being a God like character. I like that he wasn't the smartest, he was an outcast and no one special. The Master should have been the Timeless Child as I know it would burn him up inside to know that he is the reason The Doctor exists.

[@batmanmarch]

@@bantabury Yeah, the Master would have made much more sense!

[@BobaTennant]

I think the ruth doctor comes after 13 and is just teasing her, because she knows what's coming for 13

[@_aballa_]

Bill: "What were you running to?" 1st Doctor: "I was trying to find the reason why evil doesn't win." Chibnall: "I'm about to end this man's whole career."

[@paulrichards4452]

Seems to me you are trying to excuse and explain all of Chibnall's plot holes. You've obviously thought about it all a lot more than Chibnall has. The Morbius explanation is just not logical. Why would a mind battle with Morbius break through the Doctors memory block and then instantly go back to blocking the Doctors memories? Its a bit of a desperate stretch. There is also the fact that in Classic Who Time Lords are male and Time Ladies are female so why is the Doctor still called a Time Lord? I think to promote equality modern writers trashed the traditions and mythos of Gallifrey and pretended it was established before which it wasn't in Classic Who only in modern Who with Missy. Its interesting to see that all the Morbius Doctors were male proving that in Classic Who that Time Lords are male. I wish writers would just come clean and acknowledge this and give their reasons. Chibnall seems to be saying that regeneration energy comes from the Doctor however we know that River Song got hers from exposure to the time vortex which Chibnall seems to have forgotten about. I think its a mess.

[@markstephen1825]

"Well, as a Time Lord, I can travel about in space and, of course [...], time, hence Time Lord" -Romana, The Pirate Planet "That's the first intelligent question you've asked. I'm a traveller. I'm a Time Lord." -Romana, The Creature from the Pit. AFAIR the word "Time Lady" was only used twice in the classic series, and not a single time was it spoken by a "time lady". "For a portrait of a Time Lady, that's not at all a bad likeness." -The Doctor, City of Death "I'm sorry, Time Lady." -Adric, State of Decay In fact, Missy alone used the term more than in all of classic. "Time Lady, please, I'm old-fashioned" Dark Water "Me. You need me. A Time Lady, to show you how it works" The Magician's Apprentice "Murdering a Dalek. I'm a Time Lady, it's our golf" "Time Lady, thank you, Some of us can afford the upgrade" The Witch's Familiar

[@paulrichards4452]

@@markstephen1825 Well what they say and whats established on Gallifrey is another thing. However if you're right it still doesn't explain the faces of previous Doctors popping up in The Brain of Morbius. I didn't want a backstory of the Doctor, I want the mystery to be left intact. Just leave it unknown after all its called Doctor Who? This is why William Hartnell is my favourite Doctor because he's a mysterious character and over the years I think they've lost all that. Going deep into the past to explain plot holes from decades ago will only serve to drive new and casual viewers away. I just wish Chibnall would give us good engaging stories on alien worlds instead he gives us a bland soulless version of Doctor Who with some of the most laughable scripts ever written. He's also constantly writing Jodie's Doctor like 10 which doesn't suit her at all.

[@markstephen1825]

@@paulrichards4452 Oh, I was only referring to the "Time Lady" part, as it really is more of a thing in NuWho than in Classic.

[@BloodSonicFlux]

The Morbius question was never a question - Morbius was also a TimeLord. Those faces were easily explained as past incarnations of Morbius, not the Doctor. If they were faces of the Doctor, why would he remember them? And if he didn't, why would he forget them after this event dredging them up? Why would Clara not have seen all of those other faces in the Doctor's timestream? If regeneration came from experiments on the Child and not the time vortex and had to be implanted purposefully into TimeLords, where did River get her regenerations from? Why now should we empathize with the Doctor if they are the most special being in all of the universe, can never die, and as we've seen can heal anyone with their regeneration energy like 11 did for River? Really River causes many problems with the Timeless Child reveal, especially if the Doctor really is it. And then we have the Last Jedi treatment of Gallifrey. The entire run of nearly 4 whole Doctors was working to bring back Gallifrey, only for that to be dropped with this new Doctor, and then annihilated off-screen, and then double-annihilated on-screen. Like what was the point of everything that came before if you're just going to tear it all down purely for your own vision? What was the point of taking over a series only to write your own?

[@spookyfool]

It makes no sense, you're free to your own opinion but it makes no sense with ancient time lords or even Morbius. The Time Lords discover regeneration through the time vortex as it only goes through Gallifrayians would receive the regenerations so what sense would it make to have the discovery between time vortex and now a syrange. So makes a confusion of how anything works as ones staring into all of time and space and the other is an injection. It makes no sense. The Doctor before the Doctor is lazy writing. How is it lazy without sounding like an idiot? Because in order for this to be in order for 57 years you have to memory wipe like Total Recall and unlike Season 3 with David Gennant when he became human, it was to be convenient but make the Doctor "cool" before the Doctor became the Doctor we love. That's lazy writing because it puts the "you were born for greatness" cliche we have seen since story writing begun. Its a cliche that takes away from it. The morbias, that makes no sense with your point. They did have the idea to have more Doctors but the mind bending contest why do we never see past Morbias? A battle is to see 2 brains not one so why doesn't Morbius have any of his faces appear? Why just the Doctor? At that point its no longer a battle thats good if we see only a one sided battle regardless of who wins. Finally, 7th Doctor they did have the idea to have more Doctors but that makes no sense. For they never really fleshed it out it was talked about but was thrown away too. Your point of it being 1963, makes no sense. 50 years later there's lore made and it has lore made to a point of fans will go to it. Like Halo, the had no idea if it would succeed or not but 20 years later lore has been made and Halo 5 took away from some of the lore (well story telling). The Doctor has been special by not being born special, he was an orphan who grew up, had family, and ran away from the ideals of time lords. 57 years later we see the alienwho is so special wasn't born special but made themselves special by doing what was right, what was kind, and what was fun. Now the Doctor is 50 other people including Ruth which takes away from the traditions of 1 through 13, it takes away that Hartnell was the one to start the journey, The Doctor was ordinary to his people but was unique because he chose to be unique not because he was born unique. In the end Doctor Aho is going a route that takes away from Hartnell's Doctor to Capaldi's Doctor.

[@kingrodney441]

When you have to make a theory to cover up bad writing.

[@PaulTaylor1]

This is a valient attempt, but the mere fact that you had to construct such elaborate schemes pretty much proves that TTC broke Doctor Who. Why else did you have to try so hard to fix it again?

[@batmanmarch]

Not really, it just means we don't have all the answers yet and here are some of my suggestions. Better to go "well it could fit in like this" rather than "nah it's broken". Surely talking and speculating about the show is part of the fun?

[@PaulTaylor1]

@GamingWithChu not at all. He's very carefully showing how you *could* with some effort concoct a way of framing things that avoided breaking things. The fact that there is a possible solution if you accept certain convoluted (and never heard of, even from Chibnall) ideas does not mean that, as things stand, it's not currently broken.

[@PaulTaylor1]

@@batmanmarch yes it is, but let me put it to you this way. Chibnall thinks he has "solved a plot hole" regarding Morbius and the all male Doctors. He thinks it's been broken all along. If he can say it was broken and decide to retcon it, then I'd rather say it's broken now and wait for the next showrunner to retcon it back. Except by the time they come back after coronavirus nobody will be interested any more anyway... 😑

[@PaulTaylor1]

@GamingWithChu I disagree.

[@PaulTaylor1]

@GamingWithChu being honest, do you actually accept that it is even possible to break canon? Literally any change could be accommodated with effort. Example: if Chibnall had revealed that there have actually been no regenerations at all, we could say come now, let's not be negative and say he broke it, we just don't know all the details yet. Maybe it was all an illusion, or a scheme by the Master. Maybe it was a parallel universe, or a time eddy. This opens up so many possibilities for the series! Once it is permitted that any change is ok as long as we can grasp at a possible explanation, or patiently wait for future information, the game is up. Davros was a future incarnation of the Doctor all along. Sergeant Benton was actually a Time Lord but didn't know it because he'd been mind wiped. Dimensions in Time can be confirmed as canon with a few flashframes at Chibnall's command. Romana was actually a Dalek in a wig. Imagine how many new layers that would add.

[@ohmydinosare]

A very sensible and pragmatic look at this new development. It doesn't bother me, really, ultimately it doesn't change anything in the day-to-day structure of the show, it just means the doctor has a bit more backstory that we haven't witnessed, which I think is a good thing, puts a bit of mystery back in.

[@coreysevenker2312]

I have a basic idea of how to fix the retcon. The finer details need to be worked out, but here is the jist of it. Make The Doctor a clone of the timeless child. Someone clones the child for some secret reason. Maybe the timeless child is the one responsible. Maybe as an immortal it can't reproduce and wants offspring. The clone isn't a perfect copy. Think Jurassic Park. They use some Gallifry DNA to make it. So now it lacks the unlimited regeneration ability, but can now reproduce and start a family. The original child's memories are recorded in the brain, but repressed like a hard drive partition. This would help explain the extra faces seen in the mobius brain episode. It saw into the repressed memory of the timeless child. Not his own memories. And now the partition is broken so she sees the memories as her own. (Eventually need to fix it) The baby doctor is a white male (Hartnel) The experiment is done in secret. The Doctor is taken away and raised like we remembered. It could have been done to hide the experiment, or to save him from whatever the orginal purpose of the cloning was. (Finer detail to work out) Now he grows up to be the Doctor we all know. Nothing about him/her has changed. This could also explain why the Doctor is a bit of an outcast. The higher ups may know his true lineage, and the Doctor may sense deep down that he doesn't belong. Decides to run and explore time and space. Meanwhile the timeless child is out there some where (more finer details) and at some point finds out about the Doctor and is inspired by it's ''offspring'' and decided to ironically copy him. Taking the name Doctor. Perhaps after the Doctor actually dies, or during the potentially lost time between the 2nd and 3rd Doctor. (Would explain not recognizing the sonic screwdriver) So the child takes the TARDIS (or gets a new one and copies the look) and the title of Doctor to carry on the legend. Eventually becoming Ruth.

[@macra1775]

It's a bit confusing but I think this is a cool theory

[@pirruq]

How will you explain River Song's regenerations???

[@batmanmarch]

We know the Silence experimented on her as a child, I'd just put it down to that. Perhaps her conception within the Time Vortex allowed the possibility of regeneration (as well as giving her the additional Time Lord abilities).

[@hgwells1899]

@Alberto. River Songs regeneration NEVER made sense. It never worked, never fit established lore, was a cop out we just had to take at face value from a season that was set up so spectacularly, only to then cop out of everything it set up in the first place. I love the River Song journey but ultimately, the excuse for it never rang true. Who knows, maybe even that will get retconned in the future, if so, I can't wait

[@johnwhittington2998]

I still personally hate it. The whole consesnsus is divided within the people who do like it "Oh it's great! We finally get Mystery again! Everything is changed! Yass Queen the 1st doctor is a girl!" Or it's "Well...hold on...it doesn't really change anything if you think about it, it's still the same Doctor!" Well? What one is it? Does it change the story or not? I've always loved the simplicity of The Doctor being just a Timelord who travels around with 20 something English girls and shows them the universe. A plot about the Doctor actually being the origin of Timelord society and is some kind of 4th Dimensional being from Flimflam land doesn't do anything for me at all? And again if you say "it doesn't exactly change anything about the show" then what was the bloody point of it? You are making doctor who unesseserily complicated anyone who wants to get into the show. It's not for me and I will not be watching series 13. I only watched the plot relevant stories this series and next year I will be skipping it all together. In before people say "bye bye nobody is gonna miss you 🙄🙄🙄🙄😒😒😒😒👋👋👋👋🙅🙅🙅🙅" You guys need to do better things than reply to a KZbin comment.

[@90sArchive]

How about both? It adds mystery without breaking canon.

[@johnwhittington2998]

Chicken Nugget or "It tells us who the doctor is and it doesn't change anything"

[@90sArchive]

@@johnwhittington2998 I disagree, I think it adds much more mystery to the character, we still don't know everything about the Doctor.

[@johnwhittington2998]

Chicken Nugget we know she's a timeless child, she was tested on and became the centre of Timelord society, lost memory had a granddaughter and went traveling. I've pretty much covered the Doctors origin. What Mystery is there? " what race is she" she's a timeless child thing. Mystery solved

[@90sArchive]

@@johnwhittington2998 Well yeah, her race for one is a mystery. What happened before the mind wipe, we only know parts. Where Ruth fits in, Who is Tecteun? The list goes on and on.

[@patricejohnson7179]

it shouldn't take this much mental gymnastics to make it make sense

[@HazarTulum]

THANK YOU. So many people claiming that this destroys Doctor Who just haven't thought about it for more than a few seconds. Or if they have, they've found one plot hole, and instead of thinking critically about how that fits in with the canon, they jump to the next one. Its hilariously easy to make this fit with the rest of the canon, people just aren't thinking about it, or maybe they missed something from the episode itself. Its fine to dislike the revelation, I myself am not too keen on it, and its fine to love it. But it doesn't break canon in the slightest. 7:16 I think that the Brendan visions tell the complete story of the timeless child from the moment Tecteun found her, to the moment where he was transformed into the body of a young Gallifreyan child who looks like a young William Hartnell. We see the chameleon arch, and although we've only seen it turn Time Lords into humans, theres nothing to suggest it can't turn aliens into Gallifreyans. Its not too difficult to imagine the Time Lords turned him into a young Gallifreyan to hide the existence of the timeless child away from their history. The Doctors childhood then follows as we know it, Listen when he's in the barn, going to the Academy and meeting the Master there, graduating with 51% at the second attempt and becoming a Time Lord, having children and grandchildren, finally running off with Susan one day.

[@BigChiken44]

I does. It completely ruin the idea of The Doctor. Yeah, in old school they had episode with mentioning "kind of previous doctors, but not sure", but they forgot about it and never bring it back

[@TheVacuuminator]

Came in ready to be real pissed off, but a lot of this was actually really smart, well thought out and delivered in a very clear manner, you really turned me around on this plot point man.

[@CyberController-]

Awesome! Positivist beats negativity.

[@firmanchristiansianturi4794]

@@CyberController- Shame it can't beat bad writing and canon destroying

[@CyberController-]

@@firmanchristiansianturi4794 Bad writing, that's subjective. Canon breaking? Well, no. It's changes very little about canon. All it means is Rassilon lied about the founding of Gallifrey. Which, considering this is a man who threw his best friend into a black hole, doesn't seem too unlikely.

[@firmanchristiansianturi4794]

@@CyberController- Watch this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5ScZpyMeNapl9E and tell me this isn't lore breaking

[@irrevenant8724]

@@firmanchristiansianturi4794 I think all B-Where's concerns are addressed at tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Theory:Doctor_Who_television_discontinuity_and_plot_holes/The_Timeless_Children but if there are any that were missed, please let me know and I'll try to help you address them.

[@quocdang5820]

It’s sad that you have to go through all this mental gymnastics of, maybe this or that, just to make sense from all the bad writing of the last season.

[@InJeffable]

I went back and watched that scene between Capaldi's Doctor and Rassilon, and what I noticed is that Rassilon is asking "How many regenerations did we grant you?" in the context of forcing the Doctor to regenerate over and over until all of his regenerations are presumably exhausted, saying that he's "got all night". That makes it seem as though he personally wasn't involved with the Doctor being "granted" more regenerations. He merely knew about it. So here's my theory: The Time Lords weren't actually granting the Doctor a new finite number of regenerations in 'The Time of the Doctor'. They were removing the shackles they had placed on the Doctor's ability to regenerate. If I'm right, the Doctor now has essentially unlimited regenerations like she had before. Anyway, I agree that the Timeless Child doesn't break Doctor Who. In fact, I like the new possibilities it opens up for the Doctor going forward. Will she try to find the portal where she was found so that she can explore her home dimension? Are there others like her? Is she just one lost member of a huge society of beings like her in the other dimension? How did she end up at the base of that portal in the first place? Was she abandoned? By whom? Why? I'm actually kind of excited for Doctor Who going forward.

[@aceywacey9871]

InJeffable But now no one can die ever again, if they do the Doctor is just kinda an a$$hole then! We've seen small bits of regen energy be used to heal wounds like Rivers hand in angels take Manhattan and bring someone back from death in let's kill Hitler. Aside from potentially breaking canon or the Doctor as a character if you think that, it literally removes any stakes now because the Doctor has an infinite amount of regenerate energy so outside of her not feeling like it there won't be any reason why she can't use it!!

[@InJeffable]

@@aceywacey9871 I see what you're saying, but have we ever seen regeneration energy being used to heal anyone but a Time Lord or the Doctor? Both examples you used are examples of one Time Lord type healing another Time Lord type. Regeneration energy may not be compatible with other species. As for the removal of stakes, I disagree. It's been established that even Time Lords aren't immune to permanent death if they still have regenerations left. There are things that can suppress a Time Lord's ability to regenerate, and one would naturally assume that some injuries are so extreme that there would be no way for even a Time Lord (or the Doctor) to overcome them. A massive point-blank explosion, for example. Or perhaps a bullet to the head. (I know River was shot multiple times during her regeneration period, but they were all body shots.)

[@hgwells1899]

@@InJeffable I agree. There were always stakes, the "old" Doctor "dying" was always done in the knowledge of a new regeneration and that NEVER diminished a thing! And yes, rewatching Gallifrey-based episodes (or, for me, relistening to BF audio The Trial of the Valeyard) HAS been given a fresh twist by The Timeless Child. All it takes is a deliberately vague reference here, a throwaway remark there, and suddenly the retcon provides a hint of something which never seemed to need explaining before, or couldn't be explained before. It's exciting, no doubt. We took the mystery at face value, never knowing it hinted at a deeper one. We thought we knew the Doctor: the show is now more Who? than ever :)

[@Percival917]

@@aceywacey9871 Indeed. I have had another franchise on the brain lately... Another one where it is often said, and not without basis, that death means nothing- Dragon ball. But even then... The reason death has no meaning in Dragon Ball is that characters can always come back. Always. Death in NuWho from now on is even worse- there's no NEED to wish companions back from the grave, when they won't even visit the grave in the first place! The Doctor is now fiction's most overpowered white mage. She can bring ANYONE back from a brink of death they will most likely never cross unless The Doctor is being negligent, an asshole, or both. And not only that, with the same unlimited well of power, she can now Kamehameha anything into oblivion. Final Fantasy's Holy spell has NOTHING on The Thirteenth Doctor's unlimited, built-in, death star lasers. It is now IMPOSSIBLE to write any story in this universe while establishing any real dramatic stakes or endearing the audience to the character. Anything you could feasibly do to establish dramatic stakes is going to be undermined by easy solutions that lie in the plain sight of Mary Sue's capabilities, and if she doesn't do those things, it just makes her look like an apathetic, negligent asshole. Dragon Ball has lots of problems, but none of them are this bad. Hell, NuWho now has a Mary Sue/Gary Stu problem not even SUPERMAN has.

[@jordentaylor2455]

@@InJeffable there are a couple of things that can "kill" a Time Lord. The Master was killed by the daleks through disintegration in Millennium. And I think you can also Highlander him. River, I know, gave him a certain poison that blocked his regeneration ability.

[@nastromo358]

M8 listen if the doctor can regen when ever for ever then wheres the fear and threat of death at sure they can die mid regeneration but there is literally no reason to worry about the doctor n any situation now

[@fergal009]

If you listen to the audio story "Trial of the Valeyard", the Valeyard gives an account of his origins. In this account, he says that he was a foundling found on another planet and taken to Gallifrey. The sixth doctor at the end of the story thinks that there was a grain of truth to this account. I thought the story of the timeless child was quite similar to this as the timeless child was found on another planet and eventually taken to Gallifrey. My theory is that the Valeyard comes into being sometime after the events of "The Timeless Children". The account of his origins in "Trial of the Valeyard" may be mostly fake but I think that the Valeyard brought elements of the story of the timeless child into it.

[@auberginemanproductions1608]

Isn't the Valeyard supposed to be the final regeneration of the Doctor or something? If so that would fit.

[@PapaBushka]

I really wish more fans would remember that this was supposed to be a show to teach children about science and history, and that none of this almost religous histrosity was ever intended.

[@Andy-xi4pu]

2:43 when I paused to look at that, it took me a second to realize you were making a Broadchurch reference- What the hell lmao

[@irrevenant8724]

Thanks. I haven't seen Broadchurch and I was all o_O at that reference.

[@philliparcher1]

At last, someone rational enough to put together a reasonable take on the Timeless Child conundrum. I love this new canvas of possibilities, WHO? Is now back in place, the question stands. What I do hope doesn’t happen is amid backlash Chibs does a one eighty and says The Master lied. But why do it? What is to gain by being that elaborate a lie?

[@zarrg5611]

@GamingWithChu I hope that he is not.

[@salvationtime2230]

Geez... All these people accusing Matt that he's woke and getting bribe money from the BBC just because he has is own opinion. If it was that easy to get money, then we wouldn't have all those "Doctor Who is Dead" videos.

[@90sArchive]

People are dumb.

[@aleatoriac7356]

I bet there were a ton of whinging babies screaming at the screen when "Deadly Assassin" first aired too. Doctor Who is an incoherent mess... which is exactly what one should expect from time travel, given the Everett interpretation of quantum mechanics. That's one of the reasons I love the show. It can always reinvent itself. The whole thing just regenerates.

[@kristoferhutter3873]

It wasn't just whining babies. The deadly assassin wasn't a bad story line because it changed cannon. Same with brains of morbius. It was bad because it changed who the doctor was. It turned a compelling character into a less compelling one. In Capaldi's regeneration episode, with the 1st doctor, Bill tells the doctor, "what if it's just a bloke putting things right?" And that's who the doctor was. I don't even care about cannon that much. Yeah it's a bit messier now, but what messes it up is what it changes about the doctor. Doctor who wasn't built on the mystery of who the doctor was in the past. All of the things, like what the doctor's real name was, and things predating the start of the original series, it was left ambiguous, a mystery, because that wasn't the point. The point was to build a compelling forward arc. We don't care where the doctor has been, as much as where he was going. In order for the solution to a mystery to be satisfying, the answer given must be more compelling and interesting than the mystery itself. The timeless children is not that. No answer to what the doctor's true name is would ever be interesting enough to justify ruining the mystery. What this story did wasn't just mess with cannon, it ruined ambiguity. Nobody really cares about what the other regenerations before Hartnell were. We wanted to know where the doctor was going. Now, we have answers that we never asked for, and we will get stories that, no matter how good they are, won't be doctor who.

[@aleatoriac7356]

@@kristoferhutter3873 Well I can understand some, but for the most part... it's like it wasn't a response to what I wrote. I get it. You don't like what the show is doing. It's not doing anything it hasn't already done before though. It's a s "Doctor Who" as it ever has been.

[@kristoferhutter3873]

@@aleatoriac7356 it is though. I just explained what it was doing differently. What made doctor who new and interesting was what it added to the show, and how it changed the doctor with each regeneration. It never sought to change who the doctor was before. Even with the addition of the war doctor, it didn't change him. We had already established that the doctor destroyed gallifrey. It didn't seek to make the doctor into a chosen one figure. If you like what they've done, more power to you. If you enjoy it that's fine, I just think you misunderstood why so many of us dislike the changes made to existing doctor who.

[@aleatoriac7356]

@@kristoferhutter3873 Well. I don't know how else to do this. Your opinion is empirically falsifiable - that is not to say that you don't actually hold the opinion, just that the opinion itself demonstrably does not reflect reality: spacetimetelegraph.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-deadly-assassin43.html?m=0 I fully acknowledge I would not have taken the show in the direction it has gone since... Series 5, really (2010). I manage to enjoy it, but it isn't what I would do with the show. But the point I made in my original comment is clearly supported by evidence.

[@screenpigeon]

I was personally not big on the twist, but I don't really care that much anymore. I just want to see Daleks again later this year!

[@chikowashere]

Chris Chibnall killed Doctor Who but it had nothing to do with that episode. He destroyed the show long before that. Partially because Jodie is NOT the Doctor. The direction he's given her has been horrendous, doesn't even remotely resemble what the Doctor was for 50 years.

[@phaeste]

and thats incredibly sad since jodie is a really good actress but no matter how good you can perform if the script and direction are shit you cant carry it

[@chikowashere]

@@phaeste I'm still convinced that Alan Cummings was so over the top in his performance, because he was taking the piss out the awful direction he was given. And they let him

[@legomegacy]

Dude. You are brilliant. Well done putting it all together.

[@AndrewChapman]

Agreed

[@strikerpinstripe]

There are so many plot contrivances that come from the timeless child plot point that don't make since with any of the already established plot points in both classic who and modern who. Its a plot point that doesn't work with in the current narrative

[@am3703]

This just sounds like retcon with extra steps

[@Lightning1998JBD]

but what about the woman from the end of time who spoke to Wilfred people thought she was the drs mother dose this mean shes this tecteun and if she is that means she cant be rassilon???

[@1cr19]

Another adoptive mom, perhaps? Like the young Doctor in the barn who grew up through the Time Lord Academy had a mother figure who adopted him after Tecteun, at the start of the 12 regen cycle we’ve seen.

[@joelmole3157]

The thing is, it’s nearly impossible to break or ruin Doctor Who. The show evolves too quickly for that. If the next showrunner doesn’t like it, they can retcon it like how Chibnall ignored Moffat’s questionable additions to the canon (the Dalek casing determines the hate, not the mutant, the Doctor ran from Gallifrey because of the Hybrid etc)

[@redjirachi1]

I can Jedi truth this shit. Have it be revealed that the Timeless Child was continually spliced into all of Time Lord society. The Doctor is the Timeless Child in the same way that every single Time Lord is; they are all lives of the Timeless Child spliced into them. Potential lives, like the potential lives Weeping Angels feed on

[@haiderr]

Joel Mole It’s possible due to the fact Daleks are returning...

[@joelmole3157]

hxiderr When has that killed the show? They’ve always been returning every season. Plus Resolution was fine IMO

[@haiderr]

@@joelmole3157 The Daleks are DEAD.

[@HazarTulum]

@@haiderr did you miss Victory of the Daleks? Sure, that episode looks really awkward considering the paradigm daleks have been phased out, but that story still happened

[@wrathava]

This is a much better explanation than constant crying clickbait videos I see from nerdroric and critical drinkers.

[@bosh3683]

By the way morbiuos was also a time lord so they could have been his

[@90sArchive]

They were the Doctor

[@DeanStrickson]

Watch the story. The faces were clearly meant to be The Doctors’, not Morbius. Philip Hinchcliffe said way back that they were The Doctors’ faces.

[@DeanStrickson]

Aaaand Matthew already mentions all of this. That’s what I get for commenting before I finish the video.

[@Paul_1971]

Exactly - why do a lot people not get this?! and what's to say Morbius didnt have more past regenerations than the doctor?!

[@90sArchive]

@@MichaelM28 Philip Hinchcliffe has clarified many times that they were the Doctor's previous faces. That and it just got confirmed again by Chibnall 🤷‍♂️

[@cybrmaTS]

I have noticed alot of people complaining about canon, this twist works around the lore or even expands upon it. It's way too early to say "they've killed the lore of dr who its rubbish ", because we haven't got all the answers. Bits have been subtley suggested. As others have said it's an ever changing show too, so if you dont understand that then they dont understand doctor who at all.

[@zarrg5611]

It expands upon the lore in the same way that an infection expands upon one's toe.

[@cybrmaTS]

@@zarrg5611 no need to be salty about it😂

[@ruairiedwards8616]

A brilliant video and a brilliant explanation to The Timeless Child

[@nekomissy595]

I think Tecteun might be one of the Heroes mentioned in Cat's Cradle, Time Crucible. It would make sense in the Timeline. I wonder if we'll see the Dark Times, the Pythia, etc... Also, it's been kinda confirmed Tecteun isn't Rassilon. I wonder if the Doctor might be the Other in the sense they would have helped Rassilon kicked Tecteun from Gallifrey.

[@DoctorWhoHugh]

" I wonder if we'll see the dark times" series 13: taking down notes

[@samuelbrooks1533]

The best fan-theory I've heard to date! *This* is what the best kind of fans do. They accept it, and they make it work in a way that they can still enjoy it. Brilliant!

[@aceywacey9871]

Samuel Brooks Fans don't automatically have to like what happens, they have a right to be upset, though they also shouldn't lash out like some people have. Personally, I despise the timeless child with a passion but I'm still going to watch. Not because I'm interested or because I hope it'll get better, honestly I only see it getting worse, but because this the show I've loved since I was a kid and I'll keep watching it. That's what it means to be a fan imo

[@xaviervega468]

@@aceywacey9871 There comes a point where you just can't accept any turd that is thrown your way. Chibnall has LONG crossed that line for me.

[@irrevenant8724]

@@xaviervega468 For me he has sometimes crossed that line - but then he does something interesting enough that I want to keep watching. Overall his ideas are pretty good. He's just shaky at producing quality episodes from them. :/

[@boitata2617]

I like to imagine that being the timeless child isn't part of the doctors personal past, but rather her future, like she learn that one day, not knowing when, or where, or why, or how, she will fall into the time vortex, and come out as the timeless child, having absorved unlimited regenaration power from the fall, it will be her choice, she will chose to sacrifice herself to give birth to the timelords, so we have two timelines, the universe's and the doctor's, the universe's timeline begins with the big bang, and the doctor's begins like it originaly did, a peasent of the timelord empire, I know there is another name that's not timelord, but I don't remember, and it ends with her becoming the timeless child, after all the series, I know that creates a paradox, but if you think about it, the eleven doctor might be the cause of the big bang, because of the pandorica and everything. So this fixes she being a chosen one, so the doctor became the doctor, and was not born special, fixes all the issues of having unlimeted regenarions caused in retrospection, and why the other timelords didn't knew that, the master was able to find out, not because of the matrix, but because he can hear the time vortex.

[@Theroha]

That could be an interesting way to handle it. Definitely takes care of the tired old Chosen One trope. The Doctor becomes the Chosen One because s/he made the choice instead of being chosen by the universe. The character has always been about having to make the choice.

[@captaindemobeard9560]

All the theories kind of make sense. But I still don't like it. Because to me it's a better idea to make a doctor just a renegade timelord that doesn't like what's going on on galifrey and then escapes with his grand daughter to travel the universe. That kind of character arch is something a lot of people can relate to in terms of politics and the desire to live a free life to do whatever they want. Now the Doctor isn't a timelord anymore and is some mystical alien goddess from another dimension that helped the timelord become who they were and is destined to be the protector of the universe. (Basically Space Jesus) So the first story arch was removed and now is telling people that people can only be good if they are born into it. Like a chosen one. (Not exactly a good role model for kids to strive to be better.) And I will ad it doesn't excuse the doctor from being a jackass. Spyfall: Steven Fry: "I read the reports. The Doctor is a man" The Doctor: "I had an upgrade" (Women are better than men apparently.) Can you hear me: Graham: I think my cancer's back The Doctor: (Bored look on her face) "I'm socially awkward so I'm going to pretend I didn't hear you." (All the Doctors were socially awkward. And they still cared.) Ascension of the Cybermen: Woman: Tries to explain the situation The Doctor: Interrupts "Don't need you're life story" (Translation: SHUT UP!!! NO ONE CARES!!!) Not to mention the ratings of the show are dropping drastically, and practically the entire fandom has given up. I said it many times and I'll say it again. Political correctness needs to die!!!

[@captaindemobeard9560]

Also there are a few more plot holes that other people including myself noticed that you may want to consider looking at. This video show them: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5ScZpyMeNapl9E

[@k-po2958]

Thank you for saying that 🙏🏿🙏🏿 I feel your passion and the true fans are all broken hearted just like I and you ,and yes fuck SJWS and political correctness

[@stinkynoodles8312]

@@k-po2958 like you and I* Fck SJWS and political correctness, promote grammatical awareness. Have a great day!

[@gengarvenom1180]

My theory with the Police Box is that at some point in the future, the Doctor meets up with a pre-Hartnell incarnation again, and somehow she/he gets access to the Tardis, of course, the Fugitive Doctor wouldn't remember meeting herself because of the paradox, but she would be using the same Tardis. The 6b theory doesn't work very well for various reasons.

[@ThomasFishwick]

Sorry I tried, but it just doesn't work. The problem is for every Fan theory and wild speculation you conjure up to explain one plot hole you cause at least a dozen more. In the end none of it makes any sense in the context of the established lore. You can bring up the faces conjured up in the Brain of Morbius and call them past regenerations of the Doctor, but the counter to that is if the Doctor couldn't remember them how did the machine used find the memories? It was the Matrix that held the record of Ruth, not the Doctor after all. Tecteun being Rassilon? Great, why didn't Rassilon know the Doctor's the Timeless child, wouldn't they have kept tabs on them? Wouldn't they, of all people, know? Why would they, knowing that The Doctor held the true secret to perpetual regeneration let them out of their sight? The only way to look at this is a long game of the Master's where by hacking the Matrix he implanted the memories into the Doctor and manipulated them to think it's real. Possibly drawing on legends and myths of the Time Lords to add weight to his claims (as we've seen him do before). As for Ruth, the fugitive Doctor, who knows. It's just as possible that she was a Time Lord suckered by the Master's manipulations into thinking she was the Doctor as part of the grand deception.

[@Shorai_3]

The Ruth being the unofficial third Doctor theory doesn’t work, due to conflicting with “The Night Walkers”.

[@JD-wg5oq]

I think the rani is the timeless child

[@dylanlarge11]

I think Tecteun is the Other? Rassilon and Omega being the other 2 founders would make a lot of sense.

[@Exaris79]

Could Ruth be Jenny. Technically Jenny is just a female iteration of the Doctor and not his daughter. She does have the same DNA as the Doctor and the other dimension could had been the previous universe that the Pandorica had rebooted. Jenny survived the reboot but emerged from the previous universe/dimension as a child. Then again the Timeless child could had been River Song too.

[@Tranceinyapantz]

Can't take any bloke seriously that has a doll of Jodi in their opening pitch.

[@Jonius]

The first half of the video was plausible, I was in agreement that these things were fairly open, but then the Morbius doctors explanation was iffy, as if we can just rule out them not being Morbius at all because The Timeless Children now exists, and then "maybe the 6th Doctor banged his head weirdly", well you lost me. There's still two main plotholes I have questions about, that are not addressed here, why did Clara not see these extra incarnations when she entered the Doctor's time stream? And the really dubious one of the Doctor and Master "growing up on Gallifrey" yet the Doctor regenerated at least 5 times as a child, that throws up some big ??? seeing them change appearance. Additionally I haven't seen a single video or article talk about the cliffhanger of the 13th sent to life imprisonment by the Judoon - which I think is most intriguing to open up into the Special and Series 13 - but I guess that doesn't mean anything in face of the shocking "woke" factor of The Timeless Child eh?

[@batmanmarch]

The Doctor banging his head falling off the exercise bike was just me trying to be humourous. I have no idea, I was just playing off the fact the Sixth Doctor has a bit of a daft reason for regenerating and bashing one's head in a particular place can result in memory loss, or maybe memory gain in this instance. I think we pretty much can dismiss that those are Morbius incarnations given the fact that this episode is quite clearly trying to say "you know when Philip Hinchcliff said all of the other faces were intended as earlier Doctors but it was sort of retconned because it didn't make sense with the later numbering of regenerations? Well that's back on the table and this is why". I'm not saying that it's a good thing by the way, I think it's madness to pin your story arc on a vague moment from 44 years ago that even fans aren't clear on let alonethe general audience! The Clara thing - perhaps the Doctor (as we know them) starts off a new timeline for them beginning with Hartnell? After all as far as the Doctor is concerned that is his first body. Time Lords can manipulate time to such an extent it's not unreasonable to suggest they rebooted his timeline in order to keep the Timeless Child portion different. I'm confused by your Master comments. We see the Timeless Child regenerate several times, yes, but the Master isn't even born at that point. He comes hundreds (thousands?) of years later when the Child is forced to regenerate into a child (baby Hartnell) and the regeneration limit is inforced. I don't mention the end because that's not relevant to this video. This video is about where this new info fits into continuity. Also, "woke"? Seriously? I'm talking about the continuity of a TV series that's hardly woke.

[@jordentaylor2455]

Remember that Morbius was a Time Lord when he was executed. So it would not be odd to him to see the Doctor's three other regenerations.... now if he saw in his mind hidden was more than 13, then he would be likely to ask the question he did.

[@irrevenant8724]

Clara and the Great Intelligence were only able to access the parts of the Doctor's timeline that he recognises and accepts. It's very telling that when the War Doctor showed up at the end of the episode Clara says "Who's that? I never saw that one. I saw all of you. Eleven faces, all of them you". If she didn't see the War Doctor (who the Doctor refuses to acknowledge) it makes sense that she also wouldn't see incarnations that the Doctor is unaware of.

[@God_Grid]

if it was rasalon it wouldnt make sence because why would he ask how many regenerations they gave him and atempting to kill him ......

[@timidwithapen2612]

A good attempt at piecing the puzzle together but the Timeless Child causes WAAAY too many plot holes. Why didnt Clara see the timeless children and ruth in the Doctor's time stream? Why does River have some regeneration powers? Why does the 11th doctor age if he is the timeless child? Those are just from the top of my head.

[@macra1775]

1) Maybe the doctor's time stream is not the same time stream as the timeless child's. Both the timeless child's memories and biology was changed so maybe this also affected the time stream. 2) River gained her regeneration powers through the time vortex. The timeless child must have traveled through it as well and somehow gained unlimited regenerations (It's never stated anywhere that the child really has unlimited regenerations. But it is known that the number of regenerations was limited to 12 so the child could have had a limited regeneration cycle herself). 3) The 11th doctor aged because he was on his last regeneration. It seems like the timelords not only erased the timeless child's memories but they also changed the child into a timelord as well. And as a timelord you only have 13 incarnatons=12 regenerations. The 11th doctor was the last one of the doctor's first regeneration cycle until the timelords granted him a new one as seen in "the time of the doctor". These are my theories on these plot holes. It's ok if you disagree, these are only my explanations, but at least it works for me :)

[@auberginemanproductions1608]

Just because we didn't see Clara visit those Doctors doesn't mean she didn't. It was never made clear just how many times she saw the Doctor, so it could quite easily happen.

[@auberginemanproductions1608]

Perhaps the Time Vortex is tied with the Timelss Child in some way. Maybe that is what allowed the infinite regenerations

[@DoctorWhoHugh]

Well I think that the Timeless Child and the Doctor have two separate time streams (we both know that the Time Lords have the technology), but that is a theory, and it is a plot hole. River has regenerative powers because of both the time vortex and some other stuff, Dorium Maldovar said that River being "created" in the TARDIS was a head start, and that Madame Kovarian had been busy ever since (Suggesting some form of genetic manipulation, e.g the origins of regenerations in Shobogans). Finally the 11th Doctor was dying because all citadel dwellers were limited to 12 regenerations, therefore so was the Child as they lived in the citadel with Techteun.

[@themilkman9688]

Simple answer: The Timelords wiped the Doctor’s memories

[@tangerinealarm]

Great video. Several of the things I didn't even notice (like the wearing of white by Tecteun and the Rassilon possible connection). It's also great to see a non-angry video about this, not that I've watched the grumpy ones. But it's certainly a great explanation of all this.

[@IDidntSetAHandle]

Great vid. I can see from the comments already there's lots of us relieved to see some balanced content on this topic. My only real concern is that future writers have a built-in, cheap 'event' whenever they need one - a new-old Doctor appears. If it gets to the stage they start cheapening regeneration, then that really will start to kill the show. But I have faith in the writers until then. Honestly, I kind of hope (but don't expect) for them to leave this alone for a few seasons. Just leaving the new mysteries (and there ARE mysteries left, lots of them - Matt just outined them) there waiting for future writers to interpret, ignore, adapt or otherwise write around however they wish.

[@zachmegna7003]

A way they could have it be better for the Timeless child, is it being the master and that he is actually from gallery in the time of the last time War

[@Sean_Last1995]

I don't really mind the whole Timeless Child stuff because they aren't named the Doctor so with the mind wipe so there for hartnell is still 1st Doctor so everything is still fine and dandy in my mind.

[@albertthomas3939]

The thing is in order for this to work, the time lords would have to take away all of the doctors regenerations before he became a time lord as hartnell. Bc you are given regeneations once you become a time lord. Also, there is the issue with time lords feeling fixed points, which comes from their connection to the time vortex This would no longer exist because regeneration doesnt xome from exposure to time vortex

[@batmanmarch]

Here it's suggested that the 13 lives rule is imposed as a genetic base in all Time Lords, so you're born with that number with the possibility of acquiring more. Not sure why this has any effect on the Time Lord's other inherent abilities. We know that, as a species, the Time Lords have spent millennia exposing themselves to the Vortex in a variety of ways, particularly through the Untempered Schism. So there's no reason why that suddenly stops being the case. You may argue River is an issue but I would suggest that her regenerations came from the experiments the Silence did on her and that her other Time Lord abilities were drawn out from exposure to the Vortex.

[@irrevenant8724]

I suggest that gaining regenerations through exposure to the Time Vortex is still a thing. The Gallifreyans originally gained their regenerations from the Timeless Child but that doesn't indicate that's the *only* way to gain regenerations. And River's origins definitely suggest that way works too. Personally I theorise that the Guardian portal from "The Timeless Children" may be very similar to the Time Vortex, so the Timeless Children may themselves have originally developed regeneration from exposure to something very similar to the Time Vortex.

[@theamericanwhovian5678]

Thank you! Finally! Someone not whining about it! I get it the episode had problems but I don’t think it break cannon! I’m just glad someone had a proper discussion about it rather than yelling oh they killed it or they did injustice to the series! Thank you I enjoyed your video like always!

[@theamericanwhovian5678]

Xtra Spice Mikey look passion is great and all, heck I have loved this show for my entire life. But it comes a point where everywhere you look everyone is yelling they killed the show when really it just opens more questions to keep the show going. And like it or hate, the series 12 final gave us more questions to ponder on. I’m sorry I’m not trying to sound like I’m angry or making it sound like the fans shouldn’t have an opinion about the show. I just want people to have a civil conversation instead of “whining” about it. Sorry if I made you feel angry with my tiny rants.

[@90sArchive]

@Xtra Spice Mikey Doubt

[@HatCreature]

I'm late but I don't think a fan of a beloved franchise should be forced to find a way to make this work, not that we shouldn't be doing that or anything I mean that's what fans are for of course, we all love something and use our passionate imagination to do this of course BUT this Timeless Child was not created out of a passion like the fans have and basically spits on all the other creators' hard work. A whole bunch of stories relied on regeneration being finite and the Timeless Child disrespects those stories, the argument could be made that The Doctor, their society, and the fans were all lied to which is cool, a mass cover up spanning literal generations but it still disrespects what came before and that in itself makes it undeserving of bending and stretching in order to find a way to make it work. But I will say you did a great job nonetheless and your effort is a testament to your own passion

[@gazda69]

For the past few weeks, all I've been seeing in my recommendations are videos from angry fans about how 'Doctor Who is ruined' and 'The canon is broken', so I'm really glad someone actually made a video explaining why this isn't a big deal. (I wanted to make one too but you beat me to it) The reveal is way too vague to be something to get angry about and I can't believe there are people calling for the show to get cancelled just when it's getting interesting. I have my own gripes with the Chibnall era, but I'm genuinely excited to see where they're going with this one. Thanks for making this video, hoping to see more like it coming from the less toxic side of the fanbase. On a side note, i propose an alternative take on the Season 6b theory: Ruth isn't actually a regeneration, but the Second Doctor with an altered appearance. In The War Games, the Time Lords never explicitly said that the Doctor would regenerate, just that they would change his appearance: "Your *appearance* has changed before, it will change again" "You can't just *change what I look like* without consulting me!" "The time has come for you to *change your appearance*, Doctor, and begin your exile" Given this, i think it would make more sense to say that Ruth is still the Second Doctor just with a differrent body, which would even save the Time Lords the hassle of giving him another regeneration as a coverup. (I know that the showrunners hadn't even come up with regeneration back then, but we've gotta work with what we're given, alright?)

[@90sArchive]

@@MichaelM28 You throw around the insult 'Dipshit' a lot for someone that is actually a dipshit

[@HazarTulum]

@@MichaelM28 squirm all you want Michael. You're full of shit, and you know it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXzUpnmQjs5pgpI

[@wannaberetro2495]

How to fix it say everyone was high on weed or something and was saying weird crap

[@burningflag3679]

I deplore The Timeless Children, as i pointed out on another Who Tuber's video. But, but, but... i'm willing and waiting to see where Chibnall takes the story. So that said this is some good work here.

[@f.p.9707]

i cannot believe im the only person i can find who is commenting about his pronunciation of omega. is that a british pronunciation??? because ive never heard it like that from anyone american, british, or otherwise

[@TGM_Productions]

This all makes sense, total sense. Also, Batmanmarch, your videos are awesome!

[@dredd1981]

Actually, it does. The Dr is now effectively immortal, so where is the danger? Where is the tension? Gone, because the lead character cannot die.

[@batmanmarch]

It's not stated anywhere in the episode that the Doctor is immortal just that the Doctor has had additional regenerations before the cycle of regenerations beginning with Hartnell, just as the Doctor was given new regenerations by the Time Lords in order to become Capaldi's Doctor. Likewise, they were never going to kill off the character after 13 incarnations no matter what the lore said so the tension and danger isn't a genuine factor. You go in knowing full well that the Doctor will escape the cliffhanger each week, it's hardly like there was any genuine stakes that the character would ever definitively get killed!

[@dredd1981]

@@batmanmarch So what was the point in the time lords giving the dr more regenerations if in fact the dr has potentially unlimited regenerations? Also, tension was a factor for previous doctors. You tune in each week knowing that he has a finite number of lives. So, while he can regenerate, those are limited and he will one day die. Not any more though, because here comes chibnall with his retcon, hurrah!

[@batmanmarch]

@@dredd1981 Because the Time Lords aren't aware of the Doctor's origins. It's a dark secret hidden away from the Time Lords as much as the Doctor, clearly stated in the episode. Again, I'd argue the Doctor's regenerations continue to be finite until we hear otherwise. Nothing has been said to suggest she can regenerate endlessly. It seems more likely that from Hartnell to Smith was a normal limited regeneration cycle, followed by a new one granted by the Time Lords (or however many, that's kept purposefully vague). I think when you have a series that makes a lot of money and the lead actor can be replaced with ease, to genuinely believe the lead character would end up stone cold dead one week is little silly. The whole point of Time of the Doctor from Moffat's perspective was to ensure the character could go on for another 50 odd years by giving him more regenerations. There was always going to be a work around the Doctor's limited regenerations, in fact Moffat had been saying that for years before he did it. Sure, kill off the Doctor for a gimmick like so many other fictional characters, but those original characters always come back and the Doctor would be no different.

[@dredd1981]

@@batmanmarch I would encourage you to watch this, it does a better job than I could of demonstrating just how canon breaking the timeless children was! kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnLae4ZmoN-ao80

[@Suedehead05]

This is a blody fantastic video. Thank you so so so much for making this video. I genuinely love love love the timelss children even at first viewing. I genuinely dont know how people say this destroys the cannon. Especially with you explaining it PERFECTLY! Really well done man brillaint video! (Also I belive chibnall is a excellent writer and is my 2nd favourite new who writer next to Moffat)

[@DMan-ev2rx]

Michael McGrath Calm down, you spastic gatekeeper. You don’t have to go through every comment you disagree with and call them a fake fan. I don’t even agree with this video or the first persons original comment but I still think you’re a knob.

[@90sArchive]

@@MichaelM28 "You're not a real Doctor Who fan" oh the irony

[@HazarTulum]

@@MichaelM28 OI DIPSHIT! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXzUpnmQjs5pgpI

[@Starsteam1]

It does ruin it because it dosen't fit his character at all. He's a normal timelord who rejects his society to travel anywhere and in the process of doing so becomes a hero. A messiah unknown alien who isn't a timelord responsible for regeneration has nothing to do with it. Also Ruth's Doctors Tardis was not supposed to be a police box.

[@Wyndrin]

AT LAST! Someone actually explaining why the show isn't dead! Damaged...maybe...but far far from dead.

[@90sArchive]

@@MichaelM28 Chibnall has at least another 3 series left. Sorry to burst your bubble but the show is still going 😊

[@HazarTulum]

@@MichaelM28 OI, INSECURE LITTLE SHITHEAD! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXzUpnmQjs5pgpI

[@Finn2885]

What if Doctor is a son of timeless child?

[@IsmarBart33]

These kind of videos are exactly what we need and what the new generation of Whovians would need to get a glimpse into classic Who-lore. I would love to see more videos of you explaining Doctor Who-lore! Great job!

[@bryansalvagejr757]

I'm hoping that the Timeless Child is not real and instead its a plan to break the Doctor by the Valeyard

[@harshalagrawal03]

What the author of this video doesn't understand is that the core basis of Doctor Who is that he is another run of the mill time lord who became special because of his experiences. Not because he was the chosen one. It is the most cliched thing that could have happened. When will people understand this.

[@batmanmarch]

Actually, if you watch the review of Series 12 where we address this arc that is my major complaint. I've never been a fan of the idea of the Doctor being anything but a chap who got fed up and left. The point of this video was to show that the new information doesn't necessarily contravene aspects of the series that we've seen before.

[@ftumschk]

Wouldn't "Brendan" have been reduced to being a run-of-the-mill Time Lord, or even a lowly Shobogan, after his mind was wiped? I know the Brendan scenes were metaphorical, but the message was pretty clear; Brendan/The Timeless Child was exploited by the higher-ups and, when they didn't need his services anymore, they pressed the reset button on him.

[@irrevenant8724]

What the author of this comment doesn't understand is that Chibnall executed this in a way that carefully avoided changing that fundamental nature of the Doctor. Being the Timeless Child doesn't make the Doctor special. The best she ever got out of being "the chosen one" only qualified her to be a convenient lab rat for the Time Lords. 'The Timeless Children' made clear that Time Lords and Timeless Children are genetically identical (because the Time Lords copied the biology of the Timeless Child). And the Division locked her into having 12 regenerations just like any other Time Lord. The Timeless Child has no inherent advantages over any other Time Lord - the Doctor is like an ordinary Time Lord in every way that matters. What makes the Doctor special isn't what they are but *who* they are - they're special because of the choices they made. The Doctor is someone who chose to not just accept the role that life handed to them and to instead get out there and explore the universe. And once they got there they couldn't resist making a difference. That's who the Doctor is. And the Brendan flashback makes it clear that's who she's always been.

[@JusGodden]

Just my fan perspective. Long rant... The time Timelords capsules are living entities. The timelords had plans to wipe the Tardis's memory and upgrade. But wiping a time capsules memory may take an extremely longer time, the time capsules have per-emtive memory spanning across space and time. It was in for repair, but that could potentially take an extremely long time for The Tardis before they even start upgrades. In that time The Doctor had already had some regeneration's in their youth before The Timelords had started the limit of further regeneration's (after being forcibly regenerated back into a child under contract). So when The Doctor decided to taking the same Tardis, the interaction with Clara was probably just her pointing to out the inevitable as The Doctor and Suzan may have switched to that time capsule anyway. The Tardis believes they had chosen The Doctor, not the other way around. The fact that Clara was there, she would have a type of mental link of some sort with The Tardis. A Tardis establishes a mind link that enables such abilities as advanced multilingualism without the person even knowing it. Who knows what residual memories the time capsule could recall. And Clara being there could have so slightly expedited the process of getting The Doctor and Suzan onboard. Which historically could have happened anyway. There is lot's of Doctor Who cannon that it all slots nicely into. And as a long time fan, I have wanted someday to see it all worked into a future story. The Timeless child did all that. Some points to support it are... - That Galefreyans do not give birth in the same way as most species, that ability was long lost and they use family DNA in "looms" to procreate. - It is established very early on that the timelords deliberately cap the amount of regeneration's possible. - That they can increase and reduce the amount of times at will. - That the timelord council can force a regeneration on someone to any certain physiology. So could potentially easily regenerate someone back to a child. - That the Council of Timelords can adjust the amount of remaining regeneration's a Timelord has at any time at will. As timelord physiology is an unknown amount of regeneration's, possibly indefinitely unless capped. - That they can even take regeneration's from one and grant them to another later incarnation of a later regeneration without them vanishing from existence (Trial of a Timelord for example). - And with that, it is also established that the those who grew up with The Doctor recall some additional regeneration's in The Doctors youth, including as a different gender before when they were young. Which would mean the Timelord Council do not apply the regeneration restrictions until possibly after a certain age or level of education. But for the most part. I think it is because The doctor was the timeless child. And not some other timelord who was experimented on and the doctor made it for themself. Which they did. They mind was wiped and returned to a child and did it for themself. From there you can probably get into some further possible fan theory territory. Thus as how The Doctor has partial human DNA. Who knows how much experimentation was done on The Doctor over the millions of years after what had become the Council of Timelords that had long cloned the DNA for themselves. The Doctor and many other Timelords may have undergone many experimental procedures over all that time. The timeless child as the best test subject. The doctor may have not just been reverted to a child, but was also reverted back into a Gallifreyan loom and combined with human DNA!

[@KezyBugg1998]

Tecteun has got to be the same woman stalking Wilfred in 10’s final episode

[@cameronmonaghan6883]

I always feel that it was Romana. It would be more emotional and he would have recognised her not Tecktaun

[@hgwells1899]

@Keiran Bugg Now this I like :)

[@robinparry6774]

At last! Someone speaking sense! I have been amazed at how many people are saying DW is broken when it clearly is not. I have sat through quite a few online rants allegedly revealing the glaring flaws in the Timeless Child idea and how it reduces DW to rubble, and all the arguments are completely underwhelming. Thanks for this breath of fresh air.

[@SuperSymbiote1]

Defenders don't make sense tho..

[@JBexplores]

It’s not dead, but it made me like it a lot less. I hope it’s revealed the Timeless Child was actually the Master. The Doctor is not supposed to be some sort of god, he should be a regular time lord who went rogue. When the seventh doctor said he was not an ordinary time lord, I believe he was talking about how he was a rebel, not the founder of the Time Lords (I very much doubt he would’ve known at that point). The whole point of the Doctor was that he wasn’t an establishment type figure and this was clearly shown whenever there was a story set in Gallifrey. It’s just annoying how each show runner will have different visions for the show, hence the fact that the history of the doctor is so weird. What was the point of all those people dying for the Doctor in the classic, RTD and Moffatt era if he was just immortal? What’s the point of caring about the Doctor as a character if he can never die? The previous showrunners clearly didn’t envision the doctor as immortal. Don’t get me wrong I would certainly like the idea of the Timeless Child if it was another Time Lord, that sounds like a pretty cool origin story. 1 cool theory I heard was that the Ruth doctor was an imposter and actually the timeless child instead. But Chibnall has really messed up imo and I hope he fixes this by making the master or another Time Lord the Timeless Child, heck I’d even take the “it was all a dream” twist at this point! Side note on the video: There is a difference between establishing something new and rewriting something that was already established. Yes the doctor was never mentioned as having two hearts in the 60s but they revealed that in the 3rd doctor era. The thing about the Timeless Child is that it was already clearly established the Doctor was simply a rebel Time Lord, the Hartnell Doctor was the first incarnation and the Doctor was not immortal. There is a difference.

[@irrevenant8724]

I don't think this makes the Doctor some sort of god. It doesn't give her new capabilities or make her more important. It doesn't *aggrandise* the character, it just gives her a longer history. I actually mind this a lot less than Season 6 and 7's weird obsession with everyone in the universe knowing who the Doctor was, being in awe of him, fearing he would speak his name and end the universe, etc. etc. (Moffat had the Doctor reboot the universe twice in two seasons. -_-). By comparison, this makes the Doctor important to history, but in a very passive way that doesn't empower her. I'm okay with that. I think it's fairly important for purposes of the show that the Timeless Child be the Doctor. Because I strongly suspect the next couple of seasons will deal with the Doctor trying to sniff out her true origins while facing up to the consequences of previously-forgotten foes and adventures that she had during her time with The Division. None of that would work if you made the Timeless Child someone else. Technically batmanmarch is right - this reveal is bigger than the two hearts thing, but Chibnall has clevely engineered it so it doesn't outright contradict anything that came before. It's just new information that we didn't know before. The Doctor still was a rebel Time Lord and given how things seem to have ended with The Division, apparently (s)he rebelled against them too. :)

[@alicec1533]

Also, not to mention, with all these threads you've brought up, it seems the show is pretty broken already (in the kindest possible way). If anything, with aid from your explanation and theorizing, this could actually close some continuity holes.