The Tonewood Debate - Dipped In Tone Podcast

[@boltofhawk]

This is one of the best sounding post-war podcasts I've come across.

[@davidtomkins4242]

"A guitar is an instrument" - (c) Rhett Shull 2022

[@RhettShull]

T shirts incoming

[@nilsx3020]

I find it hilarious when people complain about opinions in podcasts, especially where such a forum is particularly focused around sharing ideas and thoughts. Once again, you can’t please everyone. Keep up the great work. The most interesting podcast around, great distraction in these dark days.

[@andrewakenson9873]

Does anyone believe KZbin is creating a culture of guitar snobs? I’m not blaming this channel. I think you two are pretty grounded. Just a observation.

[@atonofspiders]

Yeah, for sure. Some say it started on gearslutz and the gear page , a circlejerk of opinionated OCD riddled elitists who weren’t playing guitar while their comments were being typed.

[@sophiemilton5939]

My overall conclusion - Tonewood on solid-body electric guitars matters very little. I do not deny that what any vibrating string is anchored to will have an effect on how long the string vibrates for and how quickly the weaker high harmonics fade from the sound. Possibly, in a laboratory situation where an electric guitar is plugged directly into an amp there may be some miniscule difference that those with especially acute hearing may be able to detect. That is not how an electric guitar is used though. Once that guitar and amp are in a band situation any such fine tonal nuances will not be audible - if the whole band is not mic'd up then such small variations will vanish into the overall mush of the sound and will not even be audible to the guitarist himself. If the instruments are all mic'd then the sound is in the hands of the sound engineer. Mic choice and placement and the engineers personal tweaking of the EQ etc will alter that "pure" tone you are alledging exists. Once the sound leaves the PA speakers and is in the room it is then in the swamp of every other noise the band is making and is also affected by the acoustic properties of the venue. As Zac pointed out, mains supply voltage varies too. Also most guitarist do not just plug directly into an amp, they have pedals etc in the chain. An overlong or poor quality cable from the guitar to the amp or to the first stomp-box will have far greater effect on tone than anything arising from the instrument wood. Two points that do not get mentioned enough - When you play a guitar, it presses against your body and clothing. You are gripping the neck and probably also resting your strumming arm on the guitar body. The guitar strap by it's nature is soft and vibration absorbing. Any fine nuances of higher harmonics are going to be totally damped down by these factors so even if your guitar did indeed have some special tonal characteristic to begin with due to the way the wood transmitted or sustained those minute vibrations, it won't now - your wooly jumper will have eaten it. Secondly, as Zac mentioned a random selection of supposedly identical guitars will not all be equal in their (acoustic) resonance. Those with a better sound when unplugged MAY PERHAPS also sound better when amped up, however only blind-tests would prove this. My own instinctive conviction is that the tested person would be unable to reliably identify any difference. - but I'm open to being proved wrong on that. Set up some proper tests and convince me! It is true that not all guitars are created equal ........ and that was also true back in the day when these now vintage instruments were made. Some will have been much better than others just by whatever random confluence of wood, hardware and craftsmanship does make these differences. Just because a guitar is "vintage" doesn't mean it is good. The only thing it definitely means is that it is old. A crap guitar in 1959 is still a crap guitar - the difference is that in this current time people will pay you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for it. Regardless, even if Tonewood is indeed a thing it is only relevant when you play alone and focus on detecting some slight variations. As soon as you are in any sort of band situation such tiny tonal qualities become totally irrelevant. I was surprised when Zac started enthusing over the packaging and colour-scheme of his Univibe. My reaction is the polar opposite - I am angry that the makers have wasted money - MY money - on what is a marketing tool for the gullible or those influenced by such things. A gadget either sounds good or it doesn't. If it sounds good then you could sell it to me in a brown paper bag for all I care. I've been cloning vintage effects and modifying guitars/amps/FX for over fifty years. Some of the best sounding ones were prototyped in a tobacco-tin ........ and never made it out of there and into a "proper" enclosure. Live or recorded, the audience cannot hear the box no matter how pretty or well-made it is. Most of the things I made were one-offs and it used to irritate the hell out of me that I could build a killer sounding gadget in a couple of hours........and was then obliged to spend the next six or more hours putting it into a box that was pretty enough that the customer would buy it.

[@PoochysUncle]

43:39 Every KZbin guitar video ever: “If you play a guitar and love it more than anything in the world, but then read a negative comment about it, you can still enjoy the guitar because it’s good to you.” Every single viewer, anytime, ever: “Thanks?”

[@0megaPi]

Order of variables by magnitude (high to low) The Player (position of the fingers, aggressivness, touch, dynamics, technique etc.) String action. Placement of the microphone, The microphone itself, Amp Cabinet. Scale length, Distance of the Pickups from the 12 fret, bridge as long as the distance between them. Pickup height. Strings.

[@boe466]

In my opinion (as an engineer) there are two ways the wood of an electric guitar can influence the amplified tone. The first one is that (in simple terms) a guitar string is not vibrating in a pure sine wave, but a complex set of frequencies that each get “damped” differently at the bridge and saddle which are anchored in the wood, depending on the resonant frequencies of the system. The second one is that the current induced in the pickup is generated by the movement of the string in the magnetic field of the pickup. If the field (the pickup) moves/vibrates, it changes that relative movement between the string and the magnetic field and thereby the current output. You can simply touch your pickup after plugging a string to feel how it moves. A very different debate however is how large these effects are compared to other variables. I recently changed the pickups in my semi-hollow to low-wind imperials and do not think such a crazy change in sound could be achieved by changing the fretboard material^^. Also, there is absolutely no physical reason why the best-looking, most expensive and hard to source woods should be the ones that sound the best. Maybe particleboard or ABS plastic is the secret material that will make the guitar sound the last 2% “better”. I think a high-end PRS does not have a sound that a good builder cannot reach with less figured and rare wood. So just know what you pay extra for (it might be looks and stunningly beautiful artisanship) and decide if it is worth to you in your financial situation.

[@planetdog1641]

I agree.

[@paulrasmussen1352]

Love this discussion. I have a bunch of warmoth parts casters and am constantly swapping necks, pickups and experimenting with finishes. I was really surprised how much the neck affects the tone. I’m not even sure it’s a matter of whether the fingerboard is maple, rosewood etc-though my 2 favorites happen to be maple. Some necks make the guitar come alive while others are just dogs, even with the same specs. In the end it’s probably safe to say that everything matters, just not in a linear fashion. Different materials working together in mysterious ways. Kinda like how the same trait in one human being is endearing and in another produces a total tool bag.

[@mgscheue]

Teacher, here, and so true about people not reading or listening. "How do I do x?" "See my announcement post about that from two weeks ago."

[@robertclarkguitar]

Tonewood exists for those that will pay for it because they believe it. The rest don't worry and just play their hearts away all the while nobody saying their wood is wrong. Lmao.

[@realtruenorth]

Watch that video and you will see that it can matter a whole lot. Of course if you play metal with a bunch of gain, you won't notice a difference, gain takes over.

[@mralgebro]

When Rhett shouted BS I lost it. 😆😂 Love the show guys! PLEASE do a video on the sea foam green strat!!!

[@BigMikeGuitar]

I am told by people with experience that when playing high-gain at concert volumes if the guitar body is not dense and heavy enough it will prone to uncontrollable feed-back and squeal (where a related example would be that of a hollow-body guitar). In this capacity, it could be said that "tonewood" performs an electro-mechanical/"tone" function, which favors the denser heavier tonewoods.

[@zacharyhaverkamp]

in my experience, since pickups only pick up vibrations from metal objects, and wood is not metal, the sound of the wood vibrating makes no difference in the sound of the guitar when playing through an amp

[@kodykindhart5644]

The wood and nut slot and saddles affect not only the tension but the residence of the instrument and it’s affected a different frequencies differently

[@kodykindhart5644]

Resonance and sustain

[@kodykindhart5644]

I agree with the fact that acoustically it has no significant compared to when plugged in

[@murrayguitarpickups9545]

The wire within the coil vibrates with the wood but not if its wax potted so most pickups don't pickup the tone of the wood but high quality unwaxxed or semi waxed pickups will, as long as you're using an amp that can accentuate those tones.

[@zacharyhaverkamp]

@Murray Guitar Pickups personally I would never use un waxed pickups because I don't want the feedback they can create

[@taylormoon3561]

I’m taking notes on this rig. Lately I’ve been wanting a more paired down pedalboard and this is so neat and tidy

[@JustSomeGuy]

I'm new guitars, so I'm not too set in my feelings about tonewood. However, I have noticed a difference in sound and resonance with my guitars, with some holding notes longer than others without any clear reason. My Johnny Marr Jaguar and Fender Sixty-Six are the most resonant, but the Jag is a solid body with a Descendant bridge and the Sixty-Six is a Strat with a small P-Bass body. There's more mass and metal on the Jag than the Sixty-Six, but they both last about the same time. It makes no sense at all. My best guess is that the springs for the tremolo on the Sixty-Six are adding to the sound, but I have those muted, so I have no idea what's going on. As for the fretboard, I don't know if it sounds different, but they do feel different. The Sixty-Six has a lacquered board, and it drives me nuts. I'm not trying to touch the board, but all the same, it feels like my fingers are slipping over the surface. I also don't like pau ferro. It feels too waxy (ironically, Monty's relic wax solves that problem). No issues with plain maple, ebony, laurel, or rosewood, though.

[@egoncorneliscallery9535]

Talking about fingerboard and frets @40m. Frets have a huge impact because that is where the string resonates just like it does at the nut. It is of course transferred through the neck. So, to me it is a question of feel between maple and rosewood. How much you touch the fingerboard itself depends on the fret HEIGHT.

[@RazorDirt]

I made an electric guitar from scratch with a SPF sheet of wood and it sounds amazing. Even unplugged it’s loud, and you can feel all the vibrations. I have a video of it on KZbin and you can hear it there. Plugged into an amp I can get so many different tones out of it, and a lot of that is because a ton of different factors all coming together. There are differences due to wood but you can have an amazing electric guitar with crappy wood or expensive wood and vice versa. At least that’s what I’ve experienced but that’s just my opinion at the moment. Rhett said it best “it does and it doesn’t [matter what wood it is]”

[@Toology88]

Should I get either a Fender Reissue '65 Deluxe Reverb, Dr. Z Maz 18, or Vintage Fender Blackface Bassman head? Just want a clean pedal platform. Do not gig or anything. Just jamming in my bedroom through my Fryette PS-2A into my interface with IR's silently or sometimes through my 4x12 (yeah. I know. It's overkill)

[@johnpruett6980]

I never thought about this topic very deeply before the recent video ended up going full rabbit hole. Broke a few brain cells and destroyed some magic, but this is my essay on what I believe is the most logical position arguing from first principles. 1) The entire signal chain = End tone. But what percentage of that is wood? Considering the amount of variables, not much... if any. 2) Amp, Pickups & Speaker type seem to be the very most important factors. With Cabinet, Electronics; Strings; Cables; & Effects coming next. Lastly, the room you're playing in, listener distance and angle from the speaker, mic placement etc...These are mostly electrical factors and entirely unrelated to wood type that have an unambiguous and repeatable effect on tone. Considering the lack of measurable data, wood type seems most likely be dead last in relevance to the tone actually coming out of an amp speaker. 3) The signal itself is electrical, generated by magnetic energy and wood can't possibly effect that DIRECTLY. However, I've seen the argument that MAYBE the wood is resonating and interacting with vibration of the string. Which in turn effects the pickup, creating a feedback loop and so on. I have not found any data that is even vaguely conclusive on this point but will allow for its potential. IF wood does anything to the signal, my intuition is that it would most likely be subtractive. For example, less dense woods could conceivably reduce sustain by deadening the string sooner, etc. Harder and denser woods adding to sustain. This is admittedly my least scientifically defendable point, as I'm not qualified. 4) As far as to why seemingly identical guitars from the same batch can sound quite different, I think that's a simple question to field and see two pretty obvious answers right away. Both the variance in electronics and pickup height could easily account for perceived differences in tone. It's understood that you will hear the high end differently with small differences in potentiometers and guitars can easily vary from 225K to 275K from one pot to another, sometimes wildly more than that. In addition, if the string height (action) varied at all from one guitar to the other then the distance from pickup to string would be different for each as well... 5) Does it surprise anyone that expensive guitars with high quality "tone woods" also have great setups & electronics? Inevitably sounding & feeling great? Cheap guitars with cheap electronics and basswood probably sound bad, go figure. However, If you've ever come across a truly special and also "cheap" guitar or love the sound of an old crappy plastic Danelectro, then you know wood can't be the holy ingredient, the "Grail of tone" everyone is looking for. 6) Any characteristic that tone woods claim to have on the end tone; Warmth, Brightness, Darkness, Clarity, Sustain, etc... ALL of these are just one element of the total sound. In the end, aren't those traits just knob tweaks on your amp or solved with a better bridge & setup? CONCLUSION: Wood and Build Quality DOES MATTER for physical reasons. Weight and responsiveness, the resonance against your body, the action and neck shape in your hand; ALL these things matter A LOT to the experience of individual guitarist. Regardless of what kind of wood, your guitars tone can't possibly hinge on its type. Even if someone still believes tone wood makes some difference, can it possibly be a significant enough percentage to justify hundreds or thousands of dollars instead of turning a knob or two? For some, maybe. For me, the only "tone wood" I'll looking for is a flamed or burled top. At least I know my eyes can appreciate it!

[@jcvguitars4919]

Glen at SpectreSoundStudios did a video on this where he accounted for every variable. Granted, he is more hard rock / metal oriented. He did a similar video recently that asked the question "Does wood for speaker cabinets matter?" And there's no audible difference, at least not one that would matter in a mix. Which I was really surprised by.

[@scottgibbs5903]

Speaking about tone, I’ve been focused on purchasing a new Gibson LP Jr. My guitar teacher suggested I buy a Vintage LP Jr instead. He argues that he has done some minor fret work on Vintage LP’s and they sound every bit as good - if not better - than the Gibson model. And, it’s $1,000 cheaper. I’m getting hung up on brand and wonder if should put aside ego and go with the Vintage. What do you say?

[@DippedInTone]

Best think to do is play them if you’re able. I (Zach) played an Eastman junior and it was remarkable but the most important thing is you enjoy the feel and the sound. The headstock doesn’t matter.

[@joshuaboardman3826]

I’m glad you brought up Danelectro..I was thinking of the difference in construction and materials between that and an LP. I wonder if what’s going on is that there’s a bias that exists because Gibson and Fender were the go-to options for solid body electric guitars back when all this seminal music was recorded…..so going back to your observations regarding PRS guitars sounding sterile, what if all that great music of the 50’s-70’s was originally recorded on PRS guitars and Gibson came out in 1985; what would the attitude towards Gibson be? My thought is that this whole debate came about because people were trying to understand the disparity between the sounds of the music that they love and the instrument that they were holding

[@andyhightides]

I stripped the finish of a 06 MIM Strat, and the first thing to disappear was the black of the sunburst, revealing alder veneers over a basswood body. Lost 17 ounces of weight.

[@michaelwallace1189]

The sum of a guitar's parts matter more than any single metric when it comes to tone. For Example, Cherry is not a common "tone wood." However, the most resonant and alive guitar I have, I made with a cherry body, and a curly maple/rock maple/purple heart neck. Another topic for tone discussion is the bolt on vs set vs other joint styles. For this particular guitar I designed a set through joint where the neck tenon extends into the body past the bridge but not all the way to the back of the instrument. It is then sandwiched between the maple top and the three sides of the cherry body. The bridge style matters too. String through, high mass fixed bridge. Finally, locking tuners and a Tusq nut. The sum of these parts combined with the design does have an impact on, at the very least, the ridiculous amount of sustain and ring the guitar has unplugged. The entire body feeds back to the player with vibrations you can feel. Whether you can hear them or not... I know I can't. The overwound PAF and hum sized p90 however are insane. I haven't touched my high end commercial models since I finished the setup. This guitar changed my style from mostly metal to more tone inspired playing and reignited my desire to learn. In my opinion, an instrument should inspire you to play and create. In this case, it took me in new directions and I haven't put it down.

[@nikolaus2688]

I watched that "air guitar" video, and frankly even on my small laptop speakers, there was a massive difference in the overtone and feedback characteristics. But I was quite amazed how good the cheap guitar sounded with a better pickup.

[@VVVY777]

Listening on studio monitors in a full treated room, and what was massive difference to you, was absolutely inconsequential to me. Totally didn't matter. Totally doesn't matter in making good music. Tonewood does not matter. Good construction does.

[@realtruenorth]

@@VVVY777 the wood matters because of the mass, more mass will affect the tone a lot, look at a piano. They have so much mass. They sustain so much more than a guitar. Electric guitars still have acoustics. When I buy an electric guitar. First I play it unplugged. The closer it sounds to an acoustic guitar, the better it tends to sound plugged in because of the resonance. Does it make it 'better' that's subjective. Even if it's a small difference, there us a difference. It might not be important. But a lot of small differences can add up to a large difference. (Plastic nut to bone nut, better strings, better hardware, better pots/caps, better pick material like a bone pick, etc.)

[@Johnjingleheimerschmidtt]

@@VVVY777 So which is it? Do they sound the same, or is the difference inconsequential? Because if it’s the former, then we can settle this and the concept of tonewood is fake. If it’s the latter and you think the difference is inconsequential, then the whole conceit of the myth busters is BS. Because what you think is an inconsequential difference could be perceived as an important and meaningful difference by others. If it’s the latter, we’re in the realm of the subjective which means the tone wood thing is no different than any of the other debates around which is the best pickups, speakers, amps, tubes, etc. But the problem is that the tonewood myth busters out there portray the air guitar test as objectively proving that there is no difference. And yet most of you will slip up every now and then and call it “inconsequential.” One is objective, one is subjective. You can’t slide between the two as though they’re the same. That’s BS.

[@snap-off5383]

Debate is over. Its the pickups. I'm that guy who will ask someone in a car that is riddled with giant "mazda" or "toyota" logos and windshield decals: "What brand of car is yours?" We think we're being funny. 36:09 This is called "listening with your knowledge, rather than your _ears._ "

[@jonasjacobsen9702]

I actually stripped my Strat (Fender Player series) recently with a heatgun and paint scraper. The poly finish they use is so incredibly thick. I was tired of the look of it, plus I was interested to see if the tonal characteristics would change. I sprayed a sherwood green metallic nitro finish afterwards and man. The feel and tone feels like night and day (I might be a little biased). I always thought the guitar sounded great and resonated well, but it was really bright and trebly. However, now it is way more balanced, the body actually resonates with the neck and the midrange frequencies have woken up. It is as if the guitar was only running on 4 of its 8 syllinders when the poly was on. I think it might come down to the thickness of the finish, however, and not the actual chemistry of the finish type.

[@filmmac3]

Lol tone paint

[@TribalGuitars]

Good wood is more important than what kind wood, as far as electric axes. If an electric projects a lot and it sounds great when it's unplugged you know the sum of all parts came together, and the projection is all about the body. That gold SG Rhett played at Righteous Guitars a while back is a prime example. I liked Gene Simmons talking about live sound in a recent interview about why his bass has just a volume pot.: "On your live basses, the tone dial is missing; it has a bit of tape over it. You also move the jack over. Why is that? “Live, it is a delusional point of view that the players have of all those dials on their guitars. You have all those dials left, right and center; treble up, down, different pickups and all of that. Those are the variables. Then you plug into an amp and it changes your sound. Also, if you have a preamp of some kind that’s going to change your sound. Then you go through speakers or you go direct. That goes to the mixer, which does its thing. By the time your playing goes through the sound system, you’re on crack if you think you’re controlling the sound. You’re not.” EVH and Nuno's guitars (just for 2 prime examples) don't have tone pots, either, for much the same reason. I think a lot of people hear with their eyes and superstition. Watch Joe Walsh go on about the "mojo space" on a single cut with his PRS signature model. In the end, as Rhett was saying, "If it sounds good it is good" regardless of all the other factors.

[@stanislavmigra]

One thing to add. It was done with Stacked pickup. What in my humble opinion is not the best pickup to show of difference between guitars.

[@egoncorneliscallery9535]

In order of importance: pickups and pickup height, electronics,. Then a combination of bridge, nut, frets in relation to the neck. Then the neck/body attachment.Then the area/density of wood where the pickups meet the body, then the rest of the body. Resonance, density all wood variables. There is NO 'tonewood'. It is not a marimba. If the wood had/has a resonance peak like you would hear by tapping it a guitar maker should try to elliminate it in the system. We dont want a resonance peak to 'take over' just like a guitar speaker. With the latter i usually use a parametric EQ to dial out the 2nd harmonic of the speaker's resonant peak. Because the wood of the electric guitar does NOT produce A tone it is less of an issue unlike acoustic guitars that are 'box' tuned.

[@ianpaterson4956]

This is my theory. When a player feeling the vibrations of the guitar against his/her body it will affect the way they are playing. Wood that vibrates less will give the player a less positive experience, thus this effect their playing. Pickups and everything else does make a difference but the wood that the body is made of, is what has most contact with the player that’s why it makes a difference.

[@steelisreal]

Always seems to feel like the wrong question is getting answered in these discussions. The question is about tone wood, but it always ends up being about specific pieces of wood. Surely the question is, does a certain wood impart such a tonal effect that no matter what else, you can tell the guitar body/neck/fretboard etc. is made out of that wood or you can't get that sound with the same guitar made out of a different wood? I say no. The quality of the wood absolutely matters, but I don't think certain woods have such an effect that you'll always know what wood the guitar was made from.

[@danieljoe3000]

One of m favorite episodes so far

[@ericwarrington6650]

Oh man..this could be the deepest of all deep dives... this topic has been fiercely debated for longer than I've been alive..great direction guys...light that 🔥🚒🤘🎸🎶🤪

[@Sean_Plays_Guitar]

My opinion on Jim's video is this: He made it okay for people to love a guitar that felt and sounded good, that isn't an expensive guitar. He just....made that okay. It's okay for me to like my 200 dollar Harley Benton SG knockoff because I like playing it and how it sounds. His experiment just allows people to not feel bad about loving a guitar because you love it. His biggest emphasis was and point was....play guitar a lot and get better. Spend your time analyzing your playing, not the gear you are playing on. I loved it. Tonewood is a thing, but it isn't the ONLY thing, and that's great.

[@alanturingandthetapes5575]

re: les pauls i think the neck joins vary in quality rather than the wood as a subset of bridge i would also include break angle of strings over the bridge

[@somebodyelseuk]

You can simply replace a pot and change the sound. It doesn't matter to me - my amp has knobs on it.

[@Paul_Lenard_Ewing]

I have the same Duncan bridge in 4 different guitars. The guitar with the ash body is bright to near ice pick highs. Another with a mahogany body is so dark I have to over compensate the treble and prescience to even make it usable. In a blindfold test with a friend playing the same tune I can pick anyone out without any sweat. Yes there are other factors but it just should not be so damn easy to hear differences. What is never spoken about is the scientific fact that solid wood is actually a sponge that absorbs frequencies some faster than others, Although your PU can only grab what comes from your strings. The wood in effect sucks a lot of it up so the PU's do not receive those frequencies in the first place. In short ash or all maple is much too hard to absorb the highs so they will be present in abundance.

[@kodykindhart5644]

This Ash body is snappier than alder in my jazz basses

[@dezertson2011]

🤣 so the dark wood is darker sounding and the lighter color wood is brighter sounding?

[@JStrecker01]

Just a little constructive criticism here but I think the main point of Jim Lill's video was missed here in this discussion. It seems pretty definitive to me (by my subjective ears) that tonewood doesn't matter in the context of Jim's video. It would have been interesting if Jim could have measured the frequency response in both cases and we could definitively say if there is a difference or not outside of our own subjective perception of sound. I didn't hear you guys give a reason why tonewood could matter, just your own subjective opinion on why it might. I personally don't understand how the wood could effect the signal generated by a changing magnetic field. All the examples given regarding things that effect the recorded sound, mic placement, pickup height, etc. are all things within that electrical circuit equation which I don't think anyone would disagree effects the sound. I think, based on Jim's video, we should dive deeper into the differences between what appear to be the same pickup. Perhaps the chemical composition of the magnet matters? That could be tested with a mass spectrometer. Just as an example. I think the definitive test would taking the same pickup, bridge, nut, neck, etc. Testing it in two, unfinished, pieces of wood of the same size such as mahogany and alder and measuring the frequency response. Lastly, I do think the question of "does tonewood matter" matters because it's a commonly held belief and as a skeptic, I want to believe the fewest number of false things possible. As an aside, I love you guys and wish you the best! Both this podcast and Rhetts channel are the only guitar related content I tune into consistently. Thanks and best wishes from KC!

[@davidtomkins4242]

people who say that rosewood and mahogany have darker sounds are doing so based on their visual appearance!

[@dezertson2011]

100%. These comments ID the low IQ’s in the room pretty quickly.

[@gbarge4]

Zach's comments near 27:00 are so right on and highlight the crap shoot it is to buy a guitar sight unseen, as is so often done online today. We wind up with "just okay" or very lucky. I admit to serious stupidity, saved by dumb luck, when ordering a Duesenberg Session Man Tom Bukovac from Anderton's in the UK to be shipped to Northern California. It just happens to be excellent but that didn't prevent the cold sweats and self recrimination between ordering and receipt. Justification for the risk? They were very hard to find around here at the time. That's it.

[@avenue6.554]

Hahahahaha! No joke folks! Zach came at me in an insta comment yesterday for calling the upcoming pedal the SH…. 🤣

[@pdbeck65]

Tone from wood in electric guitars is the smallest effect of the the whole rig IMHO. Neck trough may be higher on the list. Having said that the feel, the look, and the sound of a unplugged Guitar can help make a better player therefor improving the sound. A well made guitar just feels so good, including the wood that was used. Maybe even the story of the tree we can feel in the mix of it all. Thank you for the topic great time!!!

[@realtruenorth]

It's also the mass/density of the wood that affects it, not just the wood species.

[@sroelit]

Having the right tone wood for your guitar pales in comparison to selecting the right diodes for your pedal.

[@realtruenorth]

Not everyone uses pedals.

[@MrRafaztar]

its loctite on the bridge, Audiomo gives advice on that

[@mralgebro]

Audiomo for the win! Love Jim

[@MrRafaztar]

@@mralgebro he is a great guy

[@wendelllaffin240]

from my experience I believe that it matters to me... to what degree I can't quantify that because if I tried to it wouldn't correlate to anyone else anyway. I will say this... it matters most in the room live, it matters less when you use digital modelling, and more when you use a tube amp, it matters less when you record pending how you record, it certainly matters less when compressed through KZbin.

[@brentporter9324]

Rule number one of UX design - people don’t read But also… this show isn’t a news broadcast, love the delayed intro. Thanks for getting Monday going guys.

[@ianpaterson4956]

This is why cheap guitars can sometimes be great because they resonate or vibrate in a pleasing way

[@AlmostGrewMyHair]

It's not about wood, it's about density.

[@RazorDirt]

The Diego vila guitar is awesome!! And you can totally tell if the fingerboard is a different wood. I played my friends entry level guitar and it had Laurel wood, which I didn’t know at the time, but I remember the guitar feeling so weird and cheap…almost plastic like. Threw me off for sure

[@druwk]

Warmoth has done interesting Tone wood comparisons with both Bodies and Necks. Pickup obviously make the most difference, but a guitar is the sum of its parts. How it plays, resonates, feels….some guitars are “good”, some suck, and are made from the same wood? As exotic old woods become more painful to harvest, we should find materials that are better. Carbon Fiber? Steel?

[@BAMozzy69]

I think the woods matter more to the Luthier than the player as it more crucial to them to make an instrument that players are attracted to. The player isn't too 'concerned' about the tonal quality of each species of the woods, more the aesthetics and 'feel'. If the guitar doesn't 'resonate' with the Player, doesn't deliver the 'sound' they want, then they aren't going to change the neck, body etc and going to change Settings, Pups, Amps etc to 'change' the sound. You change a Maple Strat neck to a Rosewood neck exactly the same shape, same frets, same nut, tuners, strings etc with the same electronics, pickups, bridge (literally just swapping the 'neck' woods, the guitar will sound, feel and 'play' differently - even with the exact same set-up - if that isn't indicative of the fact the 'neck' wood makes a difference - considering EVERYTHING else staying EXACTLY the same, then I don't know what is. It can't be down to strings, nut, bridge or Pickups, something 'else' is changing that sound and as the ONLY thing changed is the neck, then its 'influencing' the sound I do believe that woods do impact on the 'sound' of an electric guitar but not to the extent that I'd 'only' buy guitars made in those materials. Aesthetics make me pick up a guitar, but its the way it sounds, feels and 'resonates' with me that matters most and the 'woods' are an important aspect to the 'whole'. The 'tone woods' really only matter to a musician who is looking to have a 'custom' guitar made for them to have specific characteristics that can be a bit more 'predictable' by using known woods and their quite predictable and repeatable tonal quality.

[@mars6433]

A metal string, vibrating and disrupting the magnetic field of a pickup....How would wood have ANY effect on "tone" ?

[@dezertson2011]

It doesn’t. It’s all 100% the way people feel about the guitar.

[@avenue6.554]

There are topics? LOL. Kidding really but I tune in as much for the loose format bantering as for the topics. Maybe more. Keep it up guys. 👍

[@rushrulz65]

Love the conversation, but you spent most of the time debating what makes a great guitar (feel and playability and feedback) and not what makes tone. YOUR feeling about a guitar are the sum of the parts. The tone is 98% in the pickup and electronics and amp. Now, I do the same you seem to, I play unplugged first. I want that acoustic feedback, the vibrations, the feel. I want to feel the weight and the neck. To me the neck IS THE guitar in many ways. A great neck and fretboard and I can put whatever pickups and electronics kit in for sound. So the question of what makes a great guitar is very different from what makes the guitar tone.

[@themikedubose]

In case y'all don't know, I still can't get this as a podcast. I get "RSS redirected to an invalid feed url." Anyone else?

[@DippedInTone]

Where are you seeing this? email us! Thanks!

[@themikedubose]

@@DippedInTone I use Podcast Addict as my podcast app

[@themikedubose]

Happy to email you...addy?

[@themikedubose]

@@DippedInTone I got a screenshot... don't know where to send it.

[@DippedInTone]

@@themikedubose dippedintone AT g mail dot com Trying to avoid those spam bots!

[@andyw6026]

Came to this late. I thought the video proved exactly the opposite to what people concluded. The "design" of the guitar, including the wood, audibly was different, every time. How different it was and how much that difference matters to each user, is a different question. What makes the biggest difference? Probably the strings and your pick / fingers....

[@outwook]

SAC 10:58

[@charliewesley94]

Yes. I want to see the Rhett relic guitar as well. haha

[@kennethbrown7350]

hello yall... im into making guitars , so far ive made a white ash body with maple n rosewood fret board and a walnut n cherry with full maple neck both being telecaster style and when you play the acoustically they are very different in sound both 25.5 scale and super slinky 9,s for strings. daylight n dark in the sound. but in my opinion to do a true test mount everything to a noise canceling material such as a rubber material were the possibilities of vibration is out the window then do the test.

[@steelsamurai3717]

You could call the Shyals pedal the F-1 as a reference to formula one cars. F would also stand for fuzz.

[@JuddLofthouse]

Only one way BLINDFOLD that’s all you need as evidence.job done

[@themikedubose]

Anyone else still having problems with getting this as a podcast? I keep getting an "invalid feed" error.

[@jamesmarkham7489]

I guess to me the tonewood debate wasn’t about wood quality. Obviously good wood vs bad wood would probably make a better instrument. To me lots of people saying all mahogany set neck guitars sound like X. If you add a maple cap then it will sound like Y. That’s where I don’t hear a difference. There’s Stratocasters made of concrete that sound exactly like a strat. I know a guy with a 3d printed strat. And it sounds just like a strat.

[@scottakam]

The only thing that is universally true here, is that you can talk a guitar player into buying just about anything if you tap into their FOMO!

[@MrWhit30]

EVERYTHING matters. But wood has always been an important factor TO ME. I have an 83' Carvin DC and a 2020 Gibson Stnd SG. They are very similar in weight. Both are Gibson scale with similar output humbuckers wired in typical 2v 2t 500k fashion. Both are double cut set neck solid bodies. The Carvin is all hard maple with an ebony fretboard, and the SG of course is mahogany/rosewood. The Carvin has a wrap around bridge vs the Gibson tune-o-matic, and the old Carvin has a brass nut so theres that diff, with IS important and obviously contributes. Can I make these 2 guitars sound pretty much identical thru the same rig/amp/pedals? Of course I can. You have so much to play with from the tone controls, your attack and pick you use, which pickup or combination thereof, pickup heights, making them sound the same is easily doable. But they are fundamentally very different. Into the same clean amp, no effects, v & t's on 10, same pick, same strings, same attack, same pickup settings and its super obvious that the Carvin is a much brighter guitar. Or just play them unplugged and its super obvious. ALso the 2 instruments FEEL totally different, and its not just the neck dimensions. How it feels effect how you play it which effects the tone probably as much as anything. In summary, wood is not something to obsess over, but it is an important factor in the fundamental character of the guitar.

[@okayguitarplayer]

The video and voice has been off during a lot of the episode.... fyi. Love the show, gents!

[@droidfan]

Again: my issue is not sound difference. My issue and huge problem is when the "better" adjective is used. When brand "x" wants to convince me to pay $15K for an electric guitar because some magical wood was used. Different? yes! of course! Better? Nah...

[@robertclarkguitar]

Agree. I'll play what works. I guarantee the blind tests always show massive failure to the connoisseur of tone wood and all the wives tales on electric guitar...Marketing is what's being argued. People believe what they read from the manufacturers. Which all came from tone wood name meaning woods selected for instrument manufacturing. Not the tone the wood gives by it's breed for electric. Hahah.

[@droidfan]

@@robertclarkguitar Finally! Thank you! I kinda get disappointed when truly smart people insist on the same thing - even when the myth has been busted many many times. It's all marketing ¯\_(°°)_/¯

[@jamesmarkham7489]

Look at puisheens channel for help with that iazzmaster

[@jamesbarber4854]

More Dipped in Overland/Dipped in Car Talk pls...

[@joshuaraysummey7679]

Korina forever! Love the show!

[@MichaelMYouTube]

This reminds me of that video where Fender put together a cardboard guitar and it sounded pretty good.

[@realtruenorth]

I mean cardboard is made out of wood, press it together hard enough, and your back to wood like territory.

[@matthewf1979]

That newer Esquire is pine. Guitars of all types have always been a sum of their parts. How much that matters is up to the player. No Rhett, a vintage 59 to 62 Jazzmaster has to be the coolest solid body electric guitar made, and I’m a Stratocaster junkie. You wouldn’t have a Novo or any offset guitars without them.

[@bigfootisjustreallyshy]

I think whats most important from that video is that it shows that the importance of the idea of "tone wood" is at the least greatly overstated. There are several more important components to a guitar that deal with tone before you should even start talking about the wood. #1 being the player. You can take a cheap guitar and with a little effort make it sound like a guitar that is the next level price point. And when some of these companies justify their extremely high prices not just because of the quality of their craftsmanship, but specifically because of the wood they are using - the question has to be asked - is it a legitimate reason to jack the price on a solid body electric guitar?

[@VinceWhitacre]

In early '65 Fender went from the AA165 to the AB165 circuit for the Bassman. Who cares? Ok, the earlier AA165 is usually considered more desirable, but get this: the channels are out of phase. They're *in* phase on the AB165. Which means JUMPER THOSE CHANNELS TOGETHER and maaaaaaan that's a sweet, sweet sound. P-90s (especially with a treble booster or dist/fuzz with a tighter low end) into a jumped AB165 is a sound you'll never forget.

[@Shiznitt_]

The SH1Z? Sounds like something I need 😂

[@dunnosmapdi]

One observation: Jim's "air guitar" had wood (pause for some people...) The bridge, nut, and tuners were all firmly locked to masses of dried, aged, resonant wood. They weren't connected to each other, and there was no wood located under the strings, but the contact points of the strings where vibrations/resonance would be induced in his open-tuned, slide-playing example all had something to interact with. Even the pup in that T style setup receives some resonance through the mounting plate, if you believe that factors. And string resonance in wood is not going to be directional any more than an earthquake or ripples in water. "Resonant mojo", to whatever extent it exists, was still in play there - if perhaps a little differently or less. It wasn't my intention, but I guess I am saying the experiment is not particularly sound. And I don't mean to be a tonewood advocate. In fact I have some issues with your "acoustically vibrant/resonant guitars are inherently better" thought too, but that's another story.

[@Sailor_Man_Music]

Belligerent, lol that’s funny. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing having a channel like this that isn’t fake is awesome. Good luck with the truck. When you start the restoration process of the square body you should vlog it for sure I think some people would really enjoy it. Also I like the fact you didn’t apologize for the the way you all conduct your business on here. Good shit Rhett.

[@dlw11235813]

I think more people have tried to relic their guitars than they’d probably like to admit. I agree with Zack that restoring the mij squire would be a great video, give it to a kid or something

[@theflotrain]

Warmoth has a tone of videos on this topic if anyone wants to watch/listen. Highly recommended.

[@CarlosMVOliveira]

The wood might help with sustain, probably the strings affect more the sound then the wood

[@cheapskate8656]

Jim Lill has also made a video on strings and another one on where does sustain come from. They are excellent.

[@buddehaole]

Big week for line 6? HELIX 2? 🤔🤔🤔🤔.

[@patricetrahan7287]

Science is science, and our beliefs are.. hum… beliefs ;). Certain guitar may definitely resonate and vibrate more in your hands, no questions here. But as much as I hate to admit it because I love great looking guitars with exotic woods BUT, pickup choice, pickup height, pickup distance from the bridge, scale lenght WILL influence the tone picked up by the pup when amplified (just watch the videos from warmoth or that of Jim Lill)… that cannot be debated. String may vibrate longer and induce more sustain with better guitar materials but THAT is not tone If tonewood was real, I would expect PRS to prove it like previous mentionned vids as their whole marketing campain is based off that premise - let’s see and hear that pls. To clarify my statement (and that of all who objectively seek an answer in that question), tonewood exists and matters for acoustic instrument (vibration of the instrument moving air waves called “sound” picked up by a microphone) vs an electric pickup that picks up voltage variations of a metal string influencing that magnetic field. Two different things Thanks

[@dezertson2011]

Matters 100% in acoustic guitars and not at all in electric guitars. End of story. I don’t know how many people I’ve heard say Rosewood finger board has a darker sound and maple a brighter sound. Clearly they are just making shit up because of the color of the wood, and yes Rosewood is harder than maple too. Then, they ignore every video showing that tone wood doesn’t have any effect on electric guitars. You just can’t convince anybody of anything, regardless of what you do.

[@masongregory278]

Exactly. I have a Gibson Explorer, full mahogany body and neck, with a rosewood fretboard. I also have a Jackson SL2H, maple neck-through, alder wings and an ebony fretboard. Well, according to the tonewood gods, my Jackson should be the brightest, shrillest, soulless atrocity compared to the campfire warm and lush tones of mahogany. In reality my Explorer is bright and snappy. My soloist is darker, kind of stiff and lacks the clarity of my Explorer. The reason is, even with the exact pickups and wiring components swapped back and forth between the two, the pickup location is closer to the bridge on the Explorer. Almost 1/2 an inch farther away from the floyd rose in the Jackson.

[@dezertson2011]

@@masongregory278 It’s not just that. The action and pickup height may a difference too.

[@Nugmania1]

Hey earlier I asked to sell me that body and I would refinish it, and make a vid and then you two dip the refinish (Japanese Strat). That would be done cool content for you as well.

[@BrentAdams]

Yes...but what were those workbenches made of? I'll bet there was some wood in there somewhere! Everything matters to some extent in any electric... or acoustic... guitar! Yes, including the woods used. Even the densities of the same woods can make BIG differences between guitars. .... and we all have different tastes in what we feel is the better looking guitar shapes. Just sayin'...

[@dustinthiessen]

that "air" guitar in fact has more wood in it than all the other guitars combined did lol

[@BrentAdams]

@@dustinthiessen LOL! I was wondering........

[@matthewmcclure3181]

Why is it that nearly all tonewood discussions focus on electric guitars? This makes almost no sense. Does tonewood make a difference for electric guitars? Maybe, Yes, I don't know. If it does, it's not exceedingly significant. I recognize Rhett prefaced the discussion as "electric guitars" but an opportunity is being missed to address a far less tired question. With all respect to Rhett (who's opinions I value), I find the "at then end of day" comment slightly off mark. When playing certain styles, it's not a matter of "good" it's a matter of characteristics that work best. For anyone who doubts this opinion, try playing Delta Blues with a dreadnought rosewood guitar and compare it to playing an O-style birch guitar. Tonewood makes a profound difference for acoustic guitars, which is of course not newsworthy. However, "does it make a difference" is the wrong question. What would be far more interesting and useful is a discussion of "what the differences actually are". If an enterprising KZbinr would like to make a video on a completely uncovered KZbin topic, evaluate the difference tonewood makes for acoustic guitars along with secondary components like "old growth" and "sinker". Major bonus points for covering "storied" woods but I acknowledge it would be difficult to get your hands on examples (although I could provide many of them). It would rapidly become apparent the question is "just how much" not "if" it makes a difference. More importantly it would provide viewers with useful information to target specific wood combinations for their desired tonal characteristics. Am I talking out of ass? My perspective is based a collection of guitars that currently includes: Back and Sides: Brazilian Rosewood, East Indian Rosewood, African Blackwood, Pernambuco, Bois de Rose, Mahogany, Koa, Cocobolo, Walnut, Maple, Pheasantwood, and Birch Tops: Adirondack Spruce, Sitka Spruce, Engleman Spruce, German Spruce, Carpathian Spruce, Redwood, Cedar, Mahogany, and Birch Storied: The Tree, Milagro BRW, Lucky Strike, Tunnel 13, Ancient Sitka, and Moon Spruce Sinker and Old Growth: Sinker Mahogany, Sinker Brazilian Rosewood. Sinker Redwood, OG Adirondack Spruce, OG Birch, OG Maple, OG Koa, OG Brazilian Rosewood, OG Mahogany, and OG Sitka There are factors related to the construction techniques and skill of the luthier that are equally and often more important. In fact, there is no factor more significant than the talent of the luthier. The tonewood of the fretboard, bridge, block, and bracings, and ivory/bone/plastic components also make a big difference. However, these other factors don't negate the obvious differences made by the choice of back, sides, and top tonewood. What eventually surprises most people is it's actually the tonewood of the top (soundboard) and the lacquer depth on the top that makes the most difference.

[@titanuranus]

I don't like Poplar (based on a sample size of one, admittedly) and have no plans to ever get another.

[@scrawfordmusic]

I think the 2x4 guitar experiment vid misses the point of diminishing returns. We (guitar gear nerds) live in the world of diminishing returns, and we wouldn’t have it any other way.

[@samizdat113]

@22:20 not much

[@rileyioacura]

Hell I’m gunna play through ma peavey!! This show always inspires me to play!! Cheers there buds!! Hey from UK, stay safe!

[@johnvcougar]

Nothing wrong with Peavey, if it’s USA-made. I have had a few, and my 80’s Bandit series #1 is just great!

[@rileyioacura]

@@johnvcougar that’s so awesome!! I have one of the Joe Satriani JSX212 Combo amps 135 watts and damn it’s loud!! But i love the tone!! But it needs work.. scratchy pots and reverb cuts in and out but it’s cool.. love peavey amps!!

[@johnvcougar]

@@rileyioacura yeah, mate: all amps need a legit service to get past age quirks, especially moving parts and capacitors. Most repair vids focus on restoring valve amps, so the great solid state units don't rate a mention, but they totally should! Do a service (deoxit and the like) and watch it shine again!

[@johnvcougar]

Except the JSX is a valve amp, lol. Looking at the schematic, most likely culprit for intermittent reverb is either a mechanical problem with the tank, or something simple like C204 going bad. Electro caps give up, leak and dry up, which can def behave intermittently. If you don't have the skills yourself, get an amp tech to help out. Def worth it for that amp!

[@rileyioacura]

@@johnvcougar thank you so much! I will definitely get a tech to look at it!

[@FabianSalomonsson]

I believe the esquire that Rhett showed is actually roasted pine.

[@frankglad2989]

I realize you hate the name "Shiz", but maybe you're giving up an incredible marketing opportunity, eh? Also, I got my end of graphic run Mjolnir from you this week, and geez man...it's already displaced a number of OD's on my board.

[@Smart-Alex]

New Helix? Fess up dammit

[@okayguitarplayer]

There are scientific instruments to measure vibrations of any kind. It's interesting on how us musicians debate this, when it's very feasible to have someone meter the crap out of the components of an electric guitar and figure out what exactly has the most or least impact on tone. Maple vs rosewood fingerboards..... c'mon man.

[@vorpalblades]

It's been done. The only factors that make a difference are hardware quality, construction type, pickups and electronics. The wood just holds everything. People make guitars out of cigar boxes, cardboard, concrete, acrylic, coffee beans...they all sound like guitars.

[@davidjoel111]

I think the wood makes a difference, but it is very nuance, It wont be like changing eq to your amp or changing speakers. Just play your guitar.

[@SourMashband]

The PRS hollowbody is cooler than both of those guitars 😎

[@natashanyxx9486]

I don’t buy the concept of “tone wood”. I believe that the amount and density of wood can add or reduce *sustain*, but the type of wood alone is irrelevant. The pickups, the pots, the amp section and the speakers have a hell of a lot more to do with tone than “Alder vs Mahogany vs Korina, etc.”

[@cheapskate8656]

Dear "tone wood believers". Do you craft your body weight for tone? Do you carefully measure your body's water content before playing? Sure physics will tell us that the wood can change the tone but physics tells us that our body will change the tone too. Usually, our fretting hand, picking arm and abdomen are all in contact with the guitar so the vibration is going through us. Is the difference enough to make an audible difference on a solid body guitar with pick ups that amplify the magnetic vibrations of strings? I say no. If you somehow manage to think yes then seriously you need to check you body tone. Sure everything technically has an effect (even air pressure) but can anybody hear it in a double blind test?