The Tragic Past of the Shaman & Marika - Elden Ring Lore

[@deliii395]

Shadow of the erdtree recontextualised Marika's character and made her even more grander than I thought, even more human than I ever imagined and the whole world of Elden Ring even more all encompassing and reflective of the complexity & tragedy of Marika.

[@mistakai4226]

Entering the shaman village was such a surreal experience. I was forced into a slow walk by the ambient music and with two simole item descriptions the entire story took an entriely different light.

[@Dekuzek]

I got and still get chills. As soon as I heard the OST my brain went, oh god this is going to be huge

[@donovan4222]

I stumbled on Bonny village by going down the hole in Moorth ruins and going from that to later discovering the shaman village was definitely one of the greatest and most insane lore experiences Fromsoft has ever done. Without even knowing all the details of what happened, you just completely understand Marika’s motivations.

[@kurenian]

One might argue that similar to miquella, marika wanted to unify everyone to prevent cruelty. Of course, she ended up committing more herself against the giants, hornsent, omen, and those who live in death. Makes you wonder if Miquella’s age would be anything different. I also think it’s interesting that there’s a motif of motherhood with empyreans. Marika, a lonely vulnerable girl, was “mothered” by Metyr. The GEQ mothered the godskins. Malenia is the mother of the kindred of rot. Finally it’s interesting how the idea of shaman flesh being a “glue” that melds things together mirroring the description of the crucible as being a place where all life is melded together.

[@Dekuzek]

You bring up a few points that I'm currently mulling over. One think throughout the Souls series is the idea of changing cycle (Age or fire to the Age of dark) and I think we are seeing similar motifs here but showing the necessity of breaking the cycle. Marika's people were oppressed by the Hornsent, so she goes on to become god, leading to her oppression of the Hornsent, then if we follow 'Hornsent's' questline, he ends up with his vengence not sated after felling Messmer, turning his vengeance towards Miquella, Marika's other Kin and all the people of the Erdtree, thus the cycle seems to repeat. Miquella however wants his Age of Compassion, which is no different, than Marika or the Hornsent, he will be oppressing everyone with his enchantment, but still everyone will be following his idea/beliefs. In regards to what you mention about the crucible, I still think the Crucible was originally a tree (maybe the tree that has become the Erdtree?), and was created by melding bodies together, similar to what we see with the Gate of Divinity, I think this may be what the 'Saints' were truly used for.

[@MrTimebomb12]

From my interpretation of Metyr/Ymir item descriptions, the Greater Will could be a personification of the cosmos itself. This would mean that it exists at a higher level of all the other outer gods. Assuming Hyetta isn't lying to us, we can surmise that the Greater Will created the Crucible and life itself, whereas the Frenzied Flame wants everything to return to its primordial nothingness. The Greater Will was always the deity of the Lands Between, but it wasn't always worshiped by its inhabitants, simply because it is so disconnected from the physical realm of existence. This is implied from descriptions like Divine Bird Feathers, which reference the power of gold, an element heavily linked to the Greater Will. Then we have the Golden Order. We know that Metyr was abandoned by the Greater Will to some capacity, and it could be this resentment that drove her to use Marika as a weapon. Marika destroyed the Crucible and created the Golden Order, which is a perversion of the Greater Will's creation as it violates the cycle of life and death, as well as disrupting the blended nature of life.

[@Dekuzek]

Totally agree with this!

[@carlosperalta4351]

As it said "An Eye for an Eye, makes the Whole World Blind..."

[@lesouth03]

Not sure if this is an actual quote from somewhere, but I remember it from Vaatis video

[@elricmon2099]

Great video! I loved that most bosses in the DLC had so much lore and answered so many questions from the base game

[@Dekuzek]

Thanks! Lots of answers, but somehow more questions haha

[@zakaryrichmond396]

Hello! Good job on being one of the first to the story videos!

[@gustavozarachoduarte9004]

This is good shit, i hope you keep uploading this quality content, regards from Paraguay :)

[@Dekuzek]

Glad you enjoyed! Thanks for watching

[@Velshin1986]

At first when the two golden sentinel showed up I was like "hmmm interesting why are they here?" Then when I reached the shaman village I heard the sound track I asked myself "wait that sounds so familiar? Isnt that the main menu theme of the game and also the elden beast theme? What the hell is going on what is this place! Then I saw the small erd tree incantation and read the description....damn the reveal of this place being the origin of Marika and reading the Braid talisman sealed the deal for me that this place atmosphere, and sound track dethroned Majula from Dark Souls 2. Thanks for the video man!

[@Dekuzek]

These types of areas highlight the true strength of Fromsoft, yes they make amazing games, and the stories are amazing but, their ability to story tell and invoke such raw emotion with the world is incredible.

[@animeproblem1070]

Messmers crusade actually happens quite a while after Marika achived divinity and i believe that she left her village before she became a god leaving behind a minor erdtree that which would eventually give rise to the true brilliant tree of hers and her braid and after leaving she managed to find the perfect person to begin her revenge after she made her way up the hornsent society all the while plotting their downfall what she found for her lord was Horaux Loux a monster in the flesh of man and with him she slaughtered the hornsent and climbed their tower and had Horaux Loux call her back through the gate

[@Dekuzek]

Yeah, post release, I've been considering the timeline more as I piece it together. Still not 100% sure, but I do think it's possible the crusade came during the time of or after the Radagon/Renalla marriage. Hence why Rellana would be involved with Messmer. Although, seeing as there is no mention of the Hornsent (Outside of the Omen) throughout the Lands Between, I am inclined to believe it is towards the start of Marika's rule.

[@animeproblem1070]

@@Dekuzek with Rennala giving Rellana her blessing it had to be after the liurnian wars which still took place more than 1000 years ago in the timeline The omen are the hornsent and Marika had 5000 years to make that the only truth people knew

[@Dekuzek]

@@animeproblem1070 Quick question, I wasn't aware of the 1000/5000 year timelines, where do you find this? I'd love to have it for my theories.

[@animeproblem1070]

@@Dekuzek GRRM did an interview and he said he wrote the backstory of what happened 5000 years before the game starts so keep that in mind that Marika ruled for a long time so I kept in mind how long the conquering of the lands between might have taken and the fact that Radagon had to rule for a decently long time as the second elden lord while still not serving as long as Godfrey this isn't exact so don't take my word as law it's just me using the small basis I do know

[@Malisteen]

@@Dekuzek as mentioned in another comment, I think Marika sealed the Realm of Shadow and the Hornsent in it shortly after becoming a deity, and considered the job done and revenge achieved, and didn't trouble herself any further with them until centuries later. Especially since the crusade was led by Messmer, not Godfrey, which to me implies that the crusade came after Marika had already banished the tarnished because 'all the Golden Order's enemies are dead and I don't need or want a bunch of warriors hanging around causing trouble because they don't have anyone to fight'. Also, all signs point to Messmer being Radagon's son, not Godfrey's, which would put the crusade even later in the timeline, after Radagon had been elevated to Elden Lord.

[@ValentinParkourGaming]

great video !

[@cardgameenjoyer7446]

More lore plz there are just way too many questions! Like what is grace? What is tarnished? Who is messmer and what he did?

[@Dekuzek]

I have quite a few more videos in the works! Keep an eye out. To answer your questions though, my interpretation of Grace is that it is a physical manifestation of Marika's blessing. So its just golden light that fills peoples eyes, giving them purpose and life. The guidance is just a further form of the blessing and direction each person has. Tarnished is much clearer. At one point in time, everyone under the Erdtree was blessed with Grace, however, upon the defeat of Marika's last enemy she strips Godfrey and his warriors of their Grace and forces them out of the Lands Between to wage war, become stronger and eventually die. But since the Rune of Death has been removed they can't truly die, they just don't revive since they no longer have Marika's blessing. This is done so Marika can grant them Grace in the future, reviving them so they to return to the Lands Between and become Elden Lord. Messmer was Marika's first child, born with an affliction that caused an abyssal serpent to live within him, creating Messmer's flame. To stop the serpents growing power and influence over Messmer, Marika places a Seal of Grace over his eye, locking the Serpent inside. However, Messmer still had the power to control his fire, which is why he was a perfect candidate for Marika's crusade. He destroys the Land of Shadow on behalf of Marika, as her revenge on the Hornsent for slaughtering her people, but after this crusade had ended, Marika sealed away Messmer and the Land of Shadow, both to hide her actions, and to lock away Messmer in the event he ever loses control over the serpent. (like we see in his Phase 2)

[@cardgameenjoyer7446]

@@Dekuzek noice cant wait! + I'd love to know why miquella needs mohg to go to the shadowland 🤔 + why the haligtree failed to become an erdtree 🤔 + where radagon really came from, and is he the father of messmer???

[@lesouth03]

@@cardgameenjoyer7446this is just speculation, but I think radagon could be a fractured version of Marika (basically magical dissociative identity disorder) caused by her trauma and manifesting as a separate being in the same body. As well, I think this is what causes the afflictions within the children of radagon and Marika, as all have something to do with multiple beings. Malenia & rot god Miquella & St Trina Messmer & Base Serpent Melina(?) & gloam eyed queen(?) And to answer your other question, Messmer is almost certainly the father because of the reason above as well as the matter of his hair color

[@Rayzx-ut7gw]

So that is why she disliked the omen twins

[@Dekuzek]

Yes, it would seem that way. The omen and misbegotten both were despised because of their similarities to the Hornsent.

[@NurVybez13]

Great demonstration! Could “the flesh of shamans” be a factor between the unification of Marika and Radagon? Hmm…..

[@Dekuzek]

Possibly, I have some speculation that the Greater Will took in people who were lost, or shunned by their people, so I'm curious if Radagon being of Giant heritage but being a human caused him to be shunned by the giants, eventually finding himself as Manus Metyr (or some other GW cathedral) which results in him being formed with Marika. On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced that Radagon was ever his own person, rather that he is just a manifestation of the Greater Will within Marika. Still a topic I'm mulling over.

[@elchuloputas95]

​@@Dekuzek maybe marika/radagon are like miquella/Saint trina

[@Dekuzek]

@@elchuloputas95 That probably is the case. The only thing that makes me think that Radagon & Marika are entirely the same entity (like St. Trina & Miquella) is that it seems like Marika is dead when we show up to fight the EB, but Radagon lives on, but when Miquella dies, so too does St. Trina. It's possible that Marika wasn't actually dead, but I'm not entirely sure.

[@lemmylemz7394]

she still betrayed someone, hence the curse

[@Dekuzek]

Now, to find out who/what it was that she betrayed, and when.

[@DonutSwordsman]

Imo i think the dlc shows us that Marika represents Free will, as do we as her lord. Miquella shows that even if you make a peaceful era, his was not true as it took away the free will of people.

[@Dekuzek]

It is interesting to see the difference in approaches between her and Miquella. I wish we got to know more about what Miquella's age was supposed to look like.

[@mistakai4226]

I don't think Messmer was the first born. Godwyns was born without a curse and it was the hornsent people who cursed Marika during the crusade.

[@Dekuzek]

That's a good point! I'm still trying to figure out how the timeline works out. But that is food for thought.

[@mistakai4226]

@@Dekuzek the war against the giants is also strange given this new information. It only seems to make sense if Marika needed the flame if the fell god to produce Messmer or if the singular vision sent by the greater will to the mother of fingers was simply to snuff out the fell God's influence. It seems like the genocide if the giants is likely what drove Marika to become disillusioned with the fingers.

[@Dekuzek]

@@mistakai4226 I've always thought of Marika's decision to snuff out the flame of ruin to be that of protection. I am of the opinion that she burned/covered the original tree, and I think she doesn't want that happening to the Erdtree. One thing I did consider, about what you mentioned above is how Messmer would have been cursed at birth before the crusade. There is definitely something more, I definitely have to think more about the timeline

[@mistakai4226]

@@Dekuzek I no longer believe the people of the crucible had any sort of sacred tree at all. I believe Marika made the tree as a weapon in her war against them. The dlc crucible items never reference any trees. The simply talk about the currents of the crucible.

[@joshlong6733]

But my question is where does the scadutree come into all this lore? Why is it afflicted ? Did messmer burn it? Or is it being corrupted by godwyn and death? The scadutree is filled with mystery in this dlc and i cant seem to place it in the main game, and also melinas place in all of this furthering my question of did messmer burn the tree. Because it seems as though we needed a demigod to burn the tree, because we are the only ones that remotely succeeded. Everyone that had a regular maiden failed.

[@Steph-Son]

Marika's story seems a bit like Ymir's from AOT.

[@Dekuzek]

I haven't watched AOT yet, but I've been meaning to. I'll have to start it soon

[@VictorIV0310]

Marika's like Ymir Fritz after her village was raided, sacked and its people meeting a grisly fate but instead of becoming a slave to a king after making contact with a mysterious, otherworldly power, she used that power to become a god, usurped that king’s place and become a vengeful, genocidal tyrant (though not without her reasons).

[@shaunflinn1002]

🧐🤔 this story is wild.

[@Dekuzek]

It's been a blast discovering how all the new lore info changes what I used to think. Fromsoft really knows how to write, that's for sure.

[@shaunflinn1002]

@@Dekuzek I agree! The contribution of George R RRRR R Martin helped create such a convincing depth to the characters and their motivations. That, on top of FromSoftwares peak ability to build story through environmental clues. "Chefs Kiss"

[@Malisteen]

But Messmer isn't Marika's first child? All signs point to him being born from the union of Marika and Radagon, not Marika and Godfrey (his red hair, his cursed nature, the butterflies). Even if you ignore all those signs and insist on Messmer being born of Godfrey, the Crusade included both Erdtree and Carian soldiers, including Renala's sister, putting it after the Carian wars were ended with Renala's marriage to Radagon. Thus the crusade must have been relatively late in the golden order's overall timeline - after the war with the giants, after the war with the dragons, after the war with Caria, after Godfrey and his followers were banished - supposedly because the Golden Order had no more enemies to battle and thus no more need of warriors, so Marika not only hadn't launched the crusade yet, she probably wasn't even intending to do so. Beyond the Carians, there are omenkillers in the crusading army, which also puts the crusade relatively late in the Golden Order - at the beginning the Golden Order was still close enough to the Crucible Culture that it branched off from for Godfrey's Crucible Knights - who seem to have modeled themselves after the Horned Warriors - were the Order's greatest champions, the hatred of all things Crucible that would spark the persecution of the Omen and eventually the omenkillers had to have come later. Messmer's Crusade didn't happen at the dawn of the Golden Order, it happened recently, with only the night of the black knives and the shattering war happening after it. Which means it Marika didn't launch it as revenge for what happened to her home village - if she had intended such revenge, she would have taken it when she first became a god. Even if the Giants, Dragons, and Carians were considered more immediate threats, at the very lease she would have launched the crusade before banishing Godfrey and the tarnished, and it would have been led by Godfrey himself, not Messmer. No, the purging by fire of the hornsent people and their crucible worshipping culture wasn't an act of revenge. It was something else. IMO Marika's revenge against the hornsent was sealing them away along with the entire Land of Shadow, and in particular sealing their tower - though even that was probably more about preventing the appearance of divine rivals. IMO she considered the Hornsent dealt with at that point, and something else later drove her to order the crusade back into the land of shadow. Maybe it was merely a way to get rid of Messmer and the danger his flame posed to the Erdtree. My theory is that the increasing appearance of signs of the crucible within the Golden Order (the Misbegotten, the Omen - especially Omen born to the Golden Lineage itself), had led her to suspect the Crucible-worshipping hornsent had found some way to corrupt the Erdtree from within their sealed prison in the Land of Shadow.

[@Dekuzek]

I have come to realize that I was wrong about Messmer's birth order. Honestly recorded this video a day after finishing the DLC and I hadn't fully pieced together everything. I also agree that the crusade came much further in the timeline than I originally thought, seemingly slightly after the Liurnian war. (Rellana joins Messmer, but Messmer is Elder to Radahn) I still think Marika's crusade was revenge, but it was a planned revenge. She knew she couldn't crusade an entire civilization while also gaining power over the Lands Between, so I think she holds the plan until after she becomes the sole ruler. However, something changes and Godfrey and the Tarnished are sent away with a plan for them to return. Could be that she didn't want Godfrey and the Tarnished to parish since she had other plans for them? Hard to say right now, the timeline is a bit of a mess right now

[@ohnospaghettios]

So is Marika justified in her actions? I can't exactly put a finger on either side. While I get and understand why she committed basically a genocide, it is still a genocide that was ultimately hid away and was reflected outside of the lands of shadow, (i.e. horned individuals being essentially enslaved and shunned)

[@Dekuzek]

I think that's a personal question everyone has to answer. To me, I don't think anything justifies Genocide, but i do understand why she did it. I think it highlights the main story point of the game being that breaking the cycle is necessary for the world to progress. We see the cycle from the Shaman being oppressed, to Marika oppressing the Hornsent, to the character Hornent, wanting to oppress the people of the Erdtree when defeating Messmer isn't enough to sate his vengeance. Its a tragic but beautiful way to demonstrate that an eye for and eye never produced a constructive result.

[@lesouth03]

That’s up to you to decide. At the very least, we understand the reasons

[@zurrizurzur]

thank u

[@stevenboddy4232]

Marika is mommy

[@FarzanJavan]

This makes no sense. Marika is a highborn Numen, not some lowborn villager.

[@Dekuzek]

There are 2 item descriptions in the game that directly tell us that the Shaman Village is Marika's home. The Minor Erdtree Incant & the Golden Braid talisman. Both found in the Shaman Village.

[@psychicmane7636]

The greater will is the void the abyss the gives birth to stars the primeival currents is the current of stars that proceeds from it it is an entity outside of the microcosm of the universe it gave rise to disparity by shattering and splitting the original oneness with this differing opposing ideas where born chaos order rot stagnation life death violence and bloodshed kindness and healing the elden ring is the physical manifestation of the idea of order and the outer gods are the same the greater will is compassionate it seems the violence of the wars has led to its abandonment as said in the trailers it no longer wants anything to do with this microcosm

[@Dekuzek]

Yeah I've been playing around with some ideas about the GW in my head for a couple days, and I get the point of it being outside comprehension. It's supposed to be the will of the universe it seems. Something I do think is odd, is that in the Frenzied Flame questline there is a line from Hyetta that talks about the 'One Great' and how the GW shattered it and created everything. Of course this is reinforced by Ymir's dialog. So it seems that some if not all of the Outer Gods existed before the beginning of the Universe, maybe without any alignment? Another theory I've been playing with is that the GW was the first star in the universe, releasing life and it's coinciding traits. And that it's abandonment was not intentional, but it just died. Lusat's Stars of Ruin sorc says the following 'When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken.' Obviously, could be completely unrelated.

[@psychicmane7636]

@@Dekuzek outer gods are metaphysical ideas opposing ideas chaos and order are ideas stagnation and movement are ideas if you know dark souls at the advent of the first flame the original grey neutralness was turned into heat cold light dark life death in this case the one great the original oneness of the universe was split into different ideas and we see these ideas in the game oppose each other the outer gods are representations of those ideas the greater will predates all outer gods are it’s making

[@Dekuzek]

@@psychicmane7636 That was my assumption as well. I just wasn't entirely sure based on the FF dialog. It definitely makes sense considering the parallels between DS and ER story.

[@psychicmane7636]

@@Dekuzek hyetta actually hints at this about birth and curses and then shabriri when he says burn away all that divides and distinguishes he is talking about the opposing ideas that create disparity

[@thorn.fieldnsta]

I'm wondering who Messmer's father is... Probably Radagon ? Wich would explain why his cursed born with the Serpent (just like Malenia with Rot), but I find it weird there's no mention of him. Perhaps because we know Marika is also Radagon... And I'm still wondering why the Black Knives who are said to be Numen close to Marika went after Godwyn under Ranni's orders. My guess is Marika had to divest herself of everything to ascend Godhood (following what we know of Miq's path) and she probably started with this braid of golden hair ? She also distanced herself of the Grandmother in that process when she saw salvation into the Fingers. Maybe the Black Knives are like St Trina, they know Godhood would be a prison for Marika and so they went after Godwyn to break her ?

[@Dekuzek]

I also think it's weird that we never hear about who Messmer's father is, even from him or his items. Something that also seems strange to me is that the Hornsent Grandam refers to Marika as a 'strumpet' which is another word for a person who sleeps around. So I'm curious how that came to be. As for the NOTBK I actually have a video that highlights my thoughts on what happened and I think it gives a good outline. Have a watch!