The Trinity and the Book of Mormon: John Larsen/Carah Burrell @JohnLarsen1 @nuancehoe | Ep. 1643

[@sarahsmit1258]

I'm Lutheran and we put a lot of emphasis on the Trinity, and basically the core teaching is that the Trinity is a holy mystery and we can't ever fully understand it. Any attempt at further explanation is going to inherently have an element or two of heresy.

[@kevinmichaelbergman8276]

I represent the TRINITY of 14 we are God Kevin the First God Sygba God Shiva God Adlu God Tammuz with our Goddesses Tiamat Ishtar Gaya Sophia Athora Lillith Terra 2 unnamed for a time.

[@Mik-ha-El]

The original Christians believed Jesus/Yeshua was a human being glorified at the right hand of God when he was raised from the dead. Peace.

[@sgee-vc1hz]

Joe, Brigham and the boys were definitely flip floppers on this question. I don't think the LDS Church has made up its mind on the nature of God to this day if you want to be honest about it.

[@kevinmichaelbergman8276]

@@sgee-vc1hz Adam Michael God was real I worked with him as my God for over 30 years and his Holy Ghost and their Antichrist Jesus all Demon's Satan's Devil's who took captive my people as Slave's we destroyed them all already I am God Kevin with God Sygba God Shiva God Adlu God Tammuz with our Goddesses Tiamat Ishtar Gaya Sophia Athora Lillith Terra we are the Trinity we are the Ancient God's your true Creators we have already won and destroyed all but ourselves as all God's were fake Bug Race infestation possessing our Bodies not Human Artificial Alien's Bug's Crickets from Thanos, your Jesus was Amun Ra Lucifer Satan Reincarnated Bugs Cricket Race Bug's. Funguses controlling Your mind's you we're all possessed by Bugs and Funguses controlling Your mind's

[@mattjohansson8931]

These episodes have become a kind of religious/emotional cognitive behavioural therapy for me. The seriousness and then the laughter, is helping unpack the foolishness. Which as John said runs deep, how deep I'm only just realising. Love you guys. Thanks so much

[@kdb3434]

yay NuanceHoe is back for this

[@CarahBurrell]

🥰🥰 so honored!

[@maureenjamieson9730]

John Larsen said: "So for a Catholic Jesus is not God." That is incorrect. For Catholics, for Lutherans, for trinitarians; the Father is God, the Son (Jesus) is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Three distinct persons in one God, one divine being. In a nutshell, that is the Trinity.

[@donnathomson4938]

Jesus is fully God and fully human. It’s all a mystery.

[@bradleygrant4123]

An amicus brief from the church was the final straw for me. I had doubted the truth claims of the church for awhile but had kept going to try and keep my family together in the hopes of it doing more good than bad. That changed when I learned about the amicus brief filed in Bostock v. Clayton Country by the Marriage Law Foundation, a group with legal support by Kirton McKonkie and the LDS church. I could no longer in good conscience attend and support an organization that was attacking people I know and respect. I knew of issues before but had always explained them away in some way but it was this brief that finally broke my shelf.

[@dford333]

I've liked many of these videos but this one really falls way short because nobody in this discussion had a good understanding of the dogma of the Trinity, to which I might add most Christians believe in the Trinity (not modalism). In fact, most Christians would say that if you don't believe the Trinity you were actually not a Christian. Right off the bat John Larson in his explanation of the Trinity he literally says to a Catholic, Jesus is not God. What!?! To a Catholic that is absolutely heretical and false and not at all what the Church believes. The Catholic Church believes Jesus is 100% fully God. Not to mention there's not multiple gods but one God and so historical Christianity is monotheistic, to which John said the trinitarian belief is not monotheistic because he doesn't understand the belief. The Church believes that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. I might add, Jesus is a distinct person of the one Godhead. God is one being in 3 persons. Jesus has always been and always will be fully God. There is not three gods, but one God. This is a mystery, in the sense that if God did not reveal this to us we would not understand it and can never fully understand it because it's supersedes our limited intellect. This is not to say we can have no understanding, but it is just limited. God is Love: Why God is Triune kzbin.info/www/bejne/nn6sZaV3acion68 Decent explanation by a Protestant of the dogma of the Trinity kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZniVhGiwnqmWhZI Aspects of the Trinity revealed in the Bible: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHXCopqed7WlhK8 Here is the catechism of the Catholic Church that has the official explanation of this foundational gospel dogma of the Trinity: www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm

[@CuriousCat8010]

My favorite three people watch! The flow and balance between you three is perfection, I love watching and learn so much. Never was Mormon, I was raised Christian, now identify as spiritual. But I find myself so interested and learning about myself as well as history. Your channel is so priceless. Please keep doing what your doing. It helps me immensely to feel less alone and make some sense of my life, past, and beliefs. Thank you Jon. You help so many people, more than you could know, and I am one of them that is benefiting on such a deep level I can’t put words to. I am struggling to define just how deeply it’s helping me to watch your videos and interviews. I’ve been watching so many episodes, at first a ton of interviews of people who left, and now these where I can learn about the Bible and how organized religions construe it. It’s teaching me so much, brining so much inner reflection. It’s like putting a lot of tiny keys into numerous locks in this dark, long abandoned space within me. Door by door, helping me figure out myself, better understand those around me, and brining to light what I personally believe. I wish I could donate a large sum every month to help keep your channel going. I am hoping you can keep up the powerful, healing work you are doing. I thank you so much John.

[@Geoplanetjane]

Am delighted to see Carrah on this program

[@CarahBurrell]

Ah thanks!!

[@daabee236]

Think of how many people have liked someone and could’ve been happily married but they couldn’t because they liked someone who wasn’t Mormon. The rules of lives that make you choose an unhappy life and for no reason.

[@amazinmaven]

I hear these stories ALL the time. 😢

[@SuperAndrewWK]

This was me! Well I was the non-mormon that had to be left because I didn't chose the church. Now she's at a SA Conference this weekend and I realized I have to move past . Have to laugh so I don't cry.... At the time we were dating and I took lessons we had a major disagreement about the Godhead because LDS'S view of it "just makes sense". Diving into that actually lead me down the entire rabbit hole of not believing either LDS or my former religion. Not only does the church tear families apart... It prevents beautiful ones from even starting. Very disappointing. We were a perfect fit minus religion.

[@harlanlang6556]

@@SuperAndrewWK What advice would you give to a couple with different religions who are considering marriage?

[@SuperAndrewWK]

@@harlanlang6556 it can totally work as long as both people think they be happy forever with that situation. I have several mixed faith marriages in my family and I'm sure it's hard but they are very happy and wouldn't change their situation. I wanted to have a mixed faith relationship but I began to see that in our case it wouldn't work. In her eyes something would always be missing and I could not deprive her of what she thought would complete her happines even if I didn't agree.. That's just my situation but if a couple can work that out, more power to them. So I guess the advice is to examine themselves to truly see if they can both be happy regardless of any faith or lack of. Probably oversimplified but that's all I got.

[@harlanlang6556]

@@SuperAndrewWK When I lived in Utah I worked with an LDS single lady who showed interest in me, even invited me to a Stake dance. I just could not see myself, a Baha'i, being married to a Mormon. For me, marriage includes a common view on reality, a common set of values, a common sense of purpose in life. Marriage is challenging enough even when you share the same religion. So I did end up marrying a Baha'i from Malaysia from a different race and a different cultural background. And it has worked!

[@Geoplanetjane]

The Trinity and the belief therein dates from the earliest dates of the Nicean Council in which the beliefs and organization of the Christian Church was codified and formally organized and the use of the Nicean Creed in the services of all of the mainstream Christian Churches.

[@gc2585]

To my knowledge Tertullian founded the term Trinity and he passed away before 325 ad, the date of Nicaea

[@harlanlang6556]

As Larsen mentions, the early 1800's were religiously interesting where the 2nd Coming was a hot topic, even with early Mormons. One of the leading theologians of the time was William Miller who studied the Book of Daniel and claimed that the Return of Christ would be in 1843. When it didn't happen, he recalculated and came up with 1844. The Seventh-Day Adventists still refer to 1844 as the year of the great disappointment. People literally sold the farm and made ascension robes. Congress invited speakers to give them the message. To add to the excitement, Samuel Morse sent the first message by telegraph from Washington D.C. to Baltimore on May 24, 1844, which started out, "What hath God wrought?" On that date we went from sending a message by Pony Express as the speediest way of sending messages, to literally sending messages at the speed of light. This was the beginning of the electronic age. No wonder people were excited and nothing seemed impossible. Most Americans and Christians are not aware that this same kind of religious excitement was happening in Islam, especially among the Persians. There was a Muslim millinnialism in Shia Islam which expected the appearance of the Qaim (One who will arise from the family of Muhammed) The year for this to occur was 1260 A.H. of the Islamic calendar which just happens to be 1844 in the Christian calendar! How cool is that? The difference for the Muslim world is that a Person did arise, a Persian descendant of Muhammed, a 24 year old merchant who set the country on fire, not literally, but spiritually and intellectually. He was eventually executed and 20,000 of His followers were killed. But that was not the end of the story.

[@chelseal654]

As an SDA who's birthday is October 23, I get to make jokes about being a Great Disappointment, lol!

[@harlanlang6556]

@@chelseal654 We love you in spite of your being a Great Disappointment.

[@amazinmaven]

@@chelseal654 You HAVE to take advantage of a coincidence like that! 😂

[@amazinmaven]

@Harlan Lang interesting! I know there are a LOT of parallels in history/apologetics etc with Islam and Christianity in general but am just not aware of that side of things so much. Thanks for sharing!

[@sidvicious2845]

Hi Harlan, I always learn from your comments, thank you! I don't see anyone as a great disappointment, rather only learning! Some of the greatest lessons are learned by mistakes! If we judge someone, condemn someone, then we haven't fully understood the teachings of Jesus "not to judge!" And if one doesn't practice his teachings, how can one lay claim to be a believer or follower of Jesus?

[@StevenWayneJones]

This guy really doesn't really know how to talk about the Trinity and doesn't really know what he is talking about - coming from an educated person in Theology. In his defense, it is pretty easy to speak in error on the Trinity and the precision needed is pretty significant. The Old Testament is Trinitarian if you read carefully and John may not know that - For example, the OT shares that there is one God and yet speaks about God in multiple persons or in plural. The OT speaks of God's Son in Psalm 2 and speak of God in Plural in Genesis 1:26. The trinity is written about far before Nicaea and even the New Testament speaks about Jesus as God. Catholics absolutely believe that Jesus is God - I am not sure where he gets that one from.... Evangelicals are not modalist, that is totally insane to say that. You should have some people on who know about Christianity when they "beat up" on Christians or at least have a resident theologian to help represent the Christians correctly. Jesus is God in the Trinity point of view. This is so so messed up. Catholics do not think that there are Gods, they are monotheistic. This is so so confusing to somebody who knows a ton about Christian theology as an evangelical. Evangelicals and Catholics are exactly the same on the trinity. John says that they are really different. As an evangelical, being called a modalist or saying that evangelicals are modalists is kinda nuts. John L probably needs to stay in his lane. Father, Son, and Spirit are one, one God, and yet distinct persons. They are not schitzofrentic as John alludes to and that is offensive. I love and care about you guys, think you are amazing most of the time, but sometimes you just don't get things right. If you need somebody to come on and speak about the trinity from an evangelical perspective please let me know. I have seen hundreds of your shows and am a HUGE fan. God bless you guys!! Messiah and Christ are synonymous - "You are the Christ" says Peter which is him saying you are the Messiah - Same thing. OT speaks of THE annointed one to come of the tribe of David and his Kingdom would never end - Jesus claimed to be this annointed one or this Messiah or "the Christ". It is a Greek word for Messiah - It wasn't an "invented" word, but when. Jew was speaking Greek for Messiah - They would use the word Christ. He seemed to get that part right.

[@StevenWayneJones]

@@Themanyfacesofego This is an interesting comment that implies some stuff probably not charitable to the millions of Christians who serve or donate millions of days, hours, dollars, and to the Christian organizations who strategize how to feed, educate, and provide micro loans in efforts to boost the quality of life all over the third world. It’s also not right to pit theology and doctrine against service and charity as if one matters more, to an active Christian they are both important.

[@StevenWayneJones]

@@Themanyfacesofego you are free to that opinion of what is more important, but the Christian perspective is that good doctrine can effect a person’s eternity whether with rewards or losses and having poor doctrine can have bad consequences or blessings in both this life and the next, but I see your point, one is more physically attending to a physical need so it can seem more important to feed a belly which you can see an immediate positive effect over giving good spiritual nutrition in the form of healthy doctrine to the soul. If the soul, God, and eternity don’t exist then you are certainly right.

[@amazinmaven]

This is how I (even STILL) feel when Christians try to explain Mormon beliefs/practices. 😂 Only time I will start "defending" or correcting misinformation and it makes me upset when I'm forced to do that! 😋 Thanks for sharing

[@StevenWayneJones]

@John Larsen I think you even said correctly that Christ and Messiah are synonymous that is also what I was saying so I think we are in agreement, both mean anointed one. Catholics and evangelicals believe in the trinity in the same way, thanks for all the work you put into the video. I did learn some stuff, but was a little annoyed at the disrespect and false things said. Have a good one John!

[@rivkahmiri513]

Yoshuah is the Hebrew pronunciation of Joshua. There is no "J" sound in Hebrew. I would imagine that instead of the Greek name "Jesus", in his community he might have been referred to as Yoshua. Similarly, Miriam is the Hebrew translation of Mary. I'm Jewish. I think in ancient times they spoke Aramaic and Aramaic is close to Hebrew and they have had the same or similar pronunciation.

[@harlanlang6556]

The English pronoun for God is "He". Does the Hebrew pronoun for God have a gender?

[@sidvicious2845]

I understand the Jewish word for reincarnation is "gilgul." Christianity stems from Judism but the concept of reincarnation didn't transcend! It was too messy in that it complicated and competed with the concept of the resurrection of Jesus! If resurrects was a true principal, what is the need of reincarnation and if reincarnation is a true principal, what is the need of the resurrection! So by default, Christianity adopted the resurrection, whether right or wrong is dependent upon the subjective view of the observer or follower! But as the concept of reincarnation has existed in other cultures for millennia, much longer than the concept of the ressurrection, can/should it be so easily discarded?

[@tobiascdngustaf]

@@sidvicious28451) Hebrew is a language; Jewish isn't a language. 2) gilgul is not something most Jews believe in. 3) please don't speak for Jews when you are clearly not a Jew. It's a bad look at best and anti Semitic at worst. Sincerely, this Orthodox Jew

[@tobiascdngustaf]

@@harlanlang6556 there are a lot of words that mean G-d in Hebrew. Different words for G-d represent different characteristics of G-d. As far as I know, all of these nouns are of masculine gender. Shekhinah, which loosely translated means presence of G-d or the place G-d dwells, is a feminine word. But it isn't a name of G-d. Reference point: I'm an Orthodox Jew.

[@jenben5alive458]

@@sidvicious2845 In my brain I can marry the two together. Many years ago I concluded that reincarnation must be a thing because it makes a lot of sense to me as far as spiritual development goes. We still needed Jesus though, to get off the wheel of reincarnation. Once we reach a certain point, we are done and don’t have to come back. Finding Christ and flowing his ways is what gets us out of here once and for all. We can then have our body back and be resurrected when all is finished. That’s how I see it. Hope that made sense lol

[@MichBelgik]

I love your podcast. I love your enthusiasm. Still, can someone explain to John Dehlin how mics work? Sometimes he's yelling with like an outside voice and it can get a bit overwhelming. We hear you loud and clear, John, and your regular studio voice is really very nice. Great episode, as always, plus my favorite guest and my favorite co-host! With love from Belgium.

[@koriel-in-real-life]

I'd never heard the "Joseph started to fix the Book of Mormon but gave up" explanation, but it makes so much sense. I remember wondering why the beginning of the Book of Mormon was so explicit about Jesus being separate from Heavenly Father, but it gets so fuzzy later.

[@JeffDayPoppy]

My understanding is that there were three Hymns the Preacher used to have the congregation sing (it varied.) They were all next to each other in the old hymn book, but have been sorted in.amongst the regular hymns now. One of them was "Rock of Ages."

[@amazinmaven]

Interesting!

[@nadinehansen9241]

I remember singing Rock of Ages, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the hymn book at the time. It's in the hymn book in current use. The other one we used to sing (Idaho Falls temple) was Leaning on the Everlasting Arms. As far as I know it isn't in either of the hymnbooks in use during my lifetime.

[@amazinmaven]

@@nadinehansen9241 Thanks for sharing Nadine! I haven't heard of that second one and now I'm curious. Were those hymns supposed to represent false doctrines also? I don't see why a hymn from a "wrong" pastor would be in the old ceremony unless it was to demonstrate some kind of "error." Any ideas?

[@nadinehansen9241]

​@@amazinmaven I don't think it was intended to say that the hymns were false doctrine. It was just what a preacher would do--lead the congregation in a hymn. When he learned that his employer was Satan, he was shocked and responded, "What?! The Devil?!" He then said that the devil was very different than he (Satan) had told him he was. He said something like the devil had horns and a black skin and other characteristics that I can't remember now. Later they took out "black skin" but left the rest of the caricature in. The scene was a kind of comic relief in the ceremony about how this nice minister (and essentially all of Christianity) was deceived.

[@Testeverything521]

Not sure why, but the Tanner's book outlining the changes to the various editions of the book of Mormon seems to be out of print and sold out everywhere. Seems like it's not currently being published. It's almost like that resource is just lost (unless you drive to one of the libraries that has it).

[@ksparks689]

Where was it said not to pray to Jesus? I’m curious because my mom has been a member for 50+ years and she prayed to Jesus in a story she told me.

[@amazinmaven]

We always close in Jesus' name but there's nowhere I'm aware of that says to pray to Jesus. As a missionary we would use Jesus as an example. He prayed to his Father in Heaven and constantly deferred reverence from himself to the Father. Are you saying there's just one particular story your mother had where she prayed directly to Jesus? Like as an exception to what was normal?

[@ksparks689]

@@amazinmaven I’m asking if there’s somewhere saying to not pray to Jesus. That’s what I was hearing in the podcast, as if it were a church rule I had never heard of. I wondered if I’d missed something similar to being told not to pray to heavenly mother. Thanks, Maven.

[@mormonstories]

This is Maven again. I found this from the Church's website from a 1988 Q&A section of the Ensign: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/06/i-have-a-question/is-it-proper-to-pray-to-jesus-christ?lang=eng "Elder Bruce R. McConkie clearly explained what our relationship with each member of the Godhead should be, pointing out that some misguided members of the Church may “begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed” with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father, and he will answer our prayers as he sees fit."

[@ksparks689]

@@mormonstories perfect. Thanks, Maven! After a convo with my mother, I realize there’s a lot of church readings she doesn’t either know or doesn’t even care about the particulars of. She will pray to Jesus if she wants to, I’m sure, whether she is told to or not.

[@j.r.2184]

Even when I was TBM, it confused me that so much of Mormon doctrine isn't in the Book of Mormon. It's supposed to contain the "Fullness of the Gospel" right? And I've heard so many talks about various converts to TSCC who may even be bible scholars or something who say something impressively vague about how the BOM clears up everything about the Bible, and how people born in the church "don't understand what you have." I always wanted them to EXPLAIN what's so impressive about it. They never did.

[@matthewmessner1105]

Dude Bro Royal 2024! Has my vote

[@bookslikewhoa]

Interestingly, before I left evangelicalism, theology dude bros were getting really up on their horses about the resurgence of modalism in American churches. They are really harping on the continuity between OT and NT God... raises questions about how a loving god does {insert your horrifying OT story of choice}, but that goes along with the whole muscular Christianity trip evangelicals and fundies are on these days in the US Early Christian history is a solid 80% of people excommunicating each other over theologies of the Trinity... basically, in dominant branch of Christianity (that would be Orthodox, Catholicism, and old line Protestantism), it boils down to all three are God, but anything getting too detailed beyond that is a mystery so we can't really get much more specific than that. Highly recommend the St. Patrick's Bad Analogies video going through a bunch of those different heresies

[@amazinmaven]

I've added that to my list but I can't promise I'll ever get to it at this point. My list is getting so long....

[@bookslikewhoa]

@@amazinmaven Relatable! :)

[@brucee8332]

Just a tiny point: schizophrenia is NOT the same as Multiple Personality Disorder, or even Dual Personality Disorder. The DSM can tell you the criteria for diagnosing schizophrenias. ERASE STIGMA WITH KNOWLEDGE! SUPPORT NAMI.

[@helenr4300]

Thank you for stating this,

[@helenr4300]

@John Larsen so much is built into 'common speech' that we end up doing something we don't intend. Openness to learning and positive response to when these matters are highlighted is vital, so thank you for your response

[@blarsen8]

Can you imagine if they called him Yeshua in the BoM? 🤯 I wonder if Adam Smith in his commentary knew.

[@lauratrout8179]

Jesus / Christ/ and the Trinity are fascinating topics. For those that are interested in the historical Jesus, I recommend the NRSV version of the Bible and specifically ‘The Jewish Annotated ‘ New Testament. Because, Jesus was Jewish. He could speak in the Temple because he was Jewish. Christians are people supposedly following Jesus’ teaching after he died. So there is the next layer of understanding that the early New Testament was written by Jewish writers. Christians through the millennium are no longer familiar with the underlying Jewish teachings. It all is a great rabbit hole to go down. I think Mr Smith was familiar with mainline Christianity - Presbyterians & Methodist teaching. I doubt he was familiar with Roman Catholic teaching.

[@amazinmaven]

Right, Joseph Smith viewed Catholicism as favorably as....most everyone else around him, I imagine!

[@brucee8332]

Christians do not believe in multiple gods; just that God-Who-Is-LOVE is expressed in three broad, different ways. CREATOR, REDEEMER, INSPIRATION, is one way to picture these three aspects of divinity. Important in the concept of The Trinity is RELATIONSHIP. LOVE-Who-Is-God, by definition, exists as a relationship between Her three Persons, three Aspects. God's nature is relationship, and yearns for relationship with CREATION, and most especially humans.

[@heleneocleary5888]

Bruce, I love your explanation. Thank you.

[@amazinmaven]

I wish Christians embodied this in general. I do think it's a beautiful concept and Christianity would be VERY different and much more loving and helpful than it currently is if that was the case.

[@aces.9738]

The Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament. Isaiah 48:16 " ,. . . from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." [Am I, Lord God, Spirit]

[@amazinmaven]

My understanding of Hebrew scholarship is that the last line after the colon is Isaiah referring to himself as having been sent to share God's message, being given God's spirit to do so.

[@aces.9738]

@@amazinmaven You might be right.

[@rubyray777]

Hello! I am a lapsed Roman Catholic Christian delurking to correct you all on the Trinity and what we believe (baptised Catholic, raised evangelical to later return fully in communion with the Catholic Faith after going to Catholic school, only to leave again...I know both sides VERY WELL!) You guys definitely need clarification on the Roman Catholic view of The Trinity. We cross ourselves when we pray and say "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (used to be Holy Ghost but this wording changed in the 60s after Vatican II Council). AMEN" And then we say our prayer and end with this same thing. This is a reminder of what the Trinity is and is outlined in the Nicene Creed that most Christian faiths kept (including Protestants [Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Cavinists, etc.]) and most evangelical denominations. It is the mystery of faith, three beings in one and including that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God. Niceen Creed - A summary of what Christianity is and the Holy Trinity The Nicene Creed "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." You guys are awesome! I love the mormon stories Podcast and I learn a lot and can relate to so much of the pain of leaving a religion and the fallout from that. Thank you for all you do! Your Podcast is a comfort to me and helps me a lot!

[@mormonstories]

You do us a great honor. Thank you!!!

[@rubyray777]

@@mormonstories Honestly, you give us the honor to have somewhere to go when we feel lost, regardless of religious background! Thank you!!

[@justrachel4496]

The perspective presented here on the Trinity in Evangelicalism is fascinating to me, because I was raised Evangelical my whole life in many different congregations, and it was always emphasized that God and Jesus were two separate persons but both equally God. Anyone even suggesting modalism would have been chased away with pitchforks.

[@unicorntamer2207]

I think all of us here are very glad that John Larson was not and is not "a lazy learner." Thank you for digging deep, fact checking, all of that. I'm sure it's time consuming. We all appreciate it.

[@susanaanderson3150]

Always fantastic epusodes with you 3😁

[@weldondearing3821]

Love this program and enjoy the m to the fullest

[@pacificcab]

Do they warm your heart? If so you should donate to them like they ask.

[@harlanlang6556]

As usual, a stimulating analysis by brother Larsen. I'm not Mormon, but he's still my brother. The trinity is not found in the Bible, but the reported statements from Jesus which brought about the need for some explanation are there: "I and my Father are one." John 10:30-33 "He that hath see me hath seen the Father." John 14 Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. This is the mystery for believers, this apparent contradiction. Christians know the words of three in one, and one in three, but what mental image goes with it? Metaphors and analogies are the tools of language which we use to get a clue concerning abstract concepts. Here's an analogy to explain the trinity which is from a non-Christian source: Think of God being the sun, the source of light and life on earth. Think of Jesus being a Perfect Mirror reflecting this light to humanity. If we see the reflection of the sun in the Mirror, we call it the sun even though the sun is actually 94 million miles away from the earth. The Mirror is not the sun, but an image of the sun can be seen in it. This image is conveyed to the earth through the medium of the rays of the sun. The rays could be likened to the Holy Spirit. This analogy can be applied universally in religion. Every major historical religion has a Jesus figure, a Buddha, a Muhammad, a Moses, a Zoroaster, etc. So every religion has a trinity and though the Mirrors may be different for the various religions, the image of the Sun reflecting in these Mirrors would be the same, and the rays connecting the Sun with the Mirrors would be the same. In this sense, Jesus could be seen as the "return" of the previous Mirrors, and all religions speak of the Founder returning, or one like their Founder. Buddha spoke of other Buddhas appearing in the future, etc. Jesus speaks of returning. Here is an ancient Hindu quote speaking to the "return": "Whenever there is decay of righteousness... and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth... for the destruction of evil-doers, for the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age." --- KRISHNA- Bhagavad Gita- fourth discourse I've talked with educated, sophisticated Hindus who claim that their religion is actually monotheistic, that the many gods that Hindus worship actually represent the attributes of the one Creator. It reminds me of the Catholic practice of praying to various Saints who may represent certain spiritual perfections. The advancement in science has enabled us to develop better spiritual analogies. The latest thinking in quantum physics is that when you continually break down material reality into its basic components, from the atom to the protons to the quarks, etc., you arrive at what they call the quantum field which they conceive as "energy". From this quantum field the elements of the "material" universe are continually emerging and also being absorbed by this Field. So the quantum field can be seen as the Source of everything material. We can use this as an analogy for God being the ultimate Spiritual Field from which emerges all knowledge, the sciences, the arts, religion and us. This is about as far from the Mormon concept of Divinity as you can get.

[@SamM-lv8hr]

Unfortunately, the sun/mirror/rays analogy is a description of Arianism, which for trinitarians was declared a heresy like, 1700 years ago

[@harlanlang6556]

@@SamM-lv8hr That's great news!

[@harlanlang6556]

@@SamM-lv8hr I just checked out Arianism and that's not what I was describing. The idea I'm making is that the Sun/Mirror relationship is not just Christian, but universal in all religions, but is not the trinity as defined by early Christians. The religious dogmas of the early church were put to the vote of Bishops. History shows that the majority is usually wrong. The overwhelming majority of Jewish leaders did not, and still do not, recognize Jesus as their promised Messiah. That doesn't mean they're right. The same can be said for every heresy pronounced by the church. Just because the majority, or the most powerful leaders, come to a decision doesn't mean they're right.

[@sidvicious2845]

There is always the fear warning of going beyond the mark in Christianity today! Of thinking one can learn more or perform greater than Jesus! But even Jesus said there would be those who would do greater things than he, because he had to return to the father! And yet his words would he considered heresy by Christian leaders of our day! But if these words of Jesus are a lie, then how are his other teaching not a lie! There is either value in these words, or there is no value in Jesus' words!

[@OuttaMyMind911]

Analogy can be useful as a teaching tool, but that's usually because we can study the actual thing the analogy is describing. I think religion has an analogy problem. For example, when we learn about DNA, we'll usually use the letters that make up words that make up a book analogy which describes amino acids, nucleotides, proteins, etc. to make a biological organism. Christians love to use that analogy and say that you can't have a book without an author. That sounds alright on the surface, but that ONLY works in the analogy, not reality. The things that are represented by the analogy are not actually letters or books, they're atoms and molecules that we can see in action with no "author" present or necessary. Unless one can show me the reality that the analogy represents, then the analogy can only be a story that is subject to interpretation and zero confirmation.

[@WeeGrahamsaccount]

It is a fascinating subject on the different manifestations of God. If you were to look at the Bible and take note of how God appears to humanity then I am sure it would be more than simply a trinity. For example what about the voice of God, or the wrestler, or the spirit of God appearing in Genesis. Although God is seen as a single God, God does appear as different entities. Jesus is seen as the word of God made flesh. Regards, Graham.

[@harlanlang6556]

Even outside of Christianity you find different Manifestations of God, different terminology. Many Native Americans simply referred to God as the Great Spirit. Buddhism uses the term "the First Cause".

[@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155]

It is interesting to note that "The Book of Mormon" mirrors Sidney Rigdon's belief, as evidenced by the Stephen Post collection, that, in order to become the Son, Jesus Christ was a sort of flesh suit that God, the Father, girds about his loins.

[@amazinmaven]

Boy that's.....one way to put it.... 😆

[@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155]

@@amazinmaven Rosh Elohim: "So long honey I'm off to be the Son today." Heavenly Mother: "Don't forget to have Mary zip up Thy Jesus-flesh suit."

[@amazinmaven]

@@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155 🤢

[@kathrynclass2915]

JL’s description of asking god to confirm truth in a way that recognizable to him and how he studied to “make it true” resonates with me and it brought these lyrics to mind from Dear Evan Hansen that always gut-punched me because I was trying really hard to stay believing and it was slipping away from me. I even stopped studying as a way to pause or slow my belief to a trickle instead of swift moving river. Anyhow here are the lyrics: •••“sometimes, you see everything you wanted And sometimes, you see everything you wish you had And it's right there, right there, right there In front of you And you want to believe it's true✨ So you make it true ✨ And you think maybe everybody wants it And needs it, a little bit too … This was just a sad invention It wasn't real, I know But we were happy I guess I couldn't let that go I guess I couldn't give that up I guess I wanted to believe 'Cause if I just believe Then I don't have to see what's really there”

[@mormonstories]

I so so love “Words Fail.” - John

[@kathrynclass2915]

@@mormonstoriesyeah… me too.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

15:30 "I am really bad at Latin" - pronounces Greek word ὁμοῦσιος homoũsios.

[@amazinmaven]

I want to send this to a friend who I'm sure will get your joke, but he is still Mormon despite his Harvard Divinity School degree, and doesn't know what a raging apostate I am lol.

[@caseyjude5472]

Polytheism doesn’t work for Americans because of their refusal to let go of American hegemony “my god can beat up your god” we’re #1, we’re #1, we’re #1

[@livingwaterministries9319]

There is no mosiah 16.16 it stops at verse 15.

[@Mindy14]

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’- when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Therefore Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

[@amazinmaven]

Thanks for sharing. It's one of those things where it's easy to see in others, but hard to see it in the "prophets" you like! It's really interesting how many people can get predictions and prophesies wrong (including modern "prophets" who predicted a 2nd term for Trump) - yet end up with even more followers than ever when proven completely wrong. Sometimes our brains are not as helpful to us as we think they should be, eh?

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Always a good discussion. Thanks guys!

[@helenr4300]

Godhead as a term goes way back centuries. Jesus is God to Catholic and protestants, but not a separate entity God. Pretty much all ways of defining trinity leans into one 'heresy' or another, modalism, adotionism etc you either end up with a less human jesus or a less divine one. The first great schism was over a creedal clause 'filique clause' and the difference between the same and the almost same. So yes it is a difficult concept, but early Christians worshipping Jesus had Jewish monotheistic roots, so either they had to make them the same, or be duo theists. Interested in how 1800s thinking led to at least 2 lasting groups who shook off the trinity if not at first. Since before that it seems it was either passively acknowledged by masses or argued by scholars about how not if.

[@FlowerChild65]

John Larsen is a bop

[@charlesmendeley9823]

John Larsen talks about the King Follet Discourse on Mormon Expression podcast, episodes 71a, 71b.

[@helenr4300]

Christians would refer to praying to the father, through the son in the power of the spirit. The idea of prayer to Jesus is fro. Nt comments about 'no other name' 'Jesus is the way' etc

[@helenr4300]

Jews were not expecting a divine messiah, anointing was for Kings but also priests and prophets. So messiah to them would be someone ser apart for a purpose by YHWH.

[@gyptianwifeey]

Loved this episode!!!!

[@TheRealCantaraBella]

But catholics dont pray to anyone but God. They plead intercessions and advice/aid from saints, angels, and Jesus. Everything is said in the devine name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The fun part is Roman Catholics, pleading to saints and angels way more than God, according to a survey. The Pope addressed it actually. Romans don't turn to God, or even Jesus in their time of need. Good show though

[@kararoberts9625]

Angels are not and do not wish to be worshiped in anyway. They are servants to God for our behalf and messengers to mankind.

[@LazarWolf07]

I’ve been a pretty casual and consistent fly on the wall of MS, ME, YOP, etc. like many folks for the last 10ish years. I recall back when JL sounded at times to have a bit of some light hearted contention when occasionally giving an off handed comment on JD and MS. Never seemed vicious just two different styled podcast hosts approaching Mormonism in their own ways. If I’m not mistaken, I could hear some sincerity in JL’s voice near the end of this one when complimenting JD and expressing some admiration for JD and the long running work of what MS has done for the listeners over these 15+ years. I’m kind of a sentimental dork but at least for me I found it to be very heart warming if that was the case JL. I’ve been around, I have heard the majority of what you both have produced, and I appreciated that moment and look up to you both quite a bit. Thanks for that little glimpse into your souls.

[@mormonstories]

❤️❤️❤️

[@LazarWolf07]

Start at 1:39:40 if you wanna see what I mean.

[@becksfakk]

As a former christian reading the BoM the first time, the "christ" from babylonian captivity-era Jews made me roll my eyes so hard!

[@krisfisher8274]

I absolutely LOVE you guys!

[@jacobopstad5483]

I don't know if others would agree with this but my understanding of how the Godhead works has kind of always been that the three of them are essentially just a team. At least that would make the most sense to me. Then each one of them could have specific roles within Team God: Elohim embodies justice, Jesus embodies mercy and the Holy Ghost embodies truth (or something like that). At any rate, I don't believe any of it anymore so it's kind of a moot point now

[@zmig7793]

Of the 100s of Mormon Stories I’ve listen to, this one lacked quality research. John Larson is great but he misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity … and he knew he would because he mentioned receiving comments about it. John Dehlin … you dropped the ball on this one, but I understand the dilemma with finding one who can speak to BOTH the Trinity AND the BoM. I suppose if you would have interview Dr James White, then he would have represented the trinity well while misrepresenting the BoM. Larson did the opposite. The sad truth is most of your viewers (I suppose) walked away thinking the Trinity is Larson’s version that he presented in the video , and will never take the time to fully understand it … because they either don’t care to, or they just accept Larson’s version. Either way, mis-information is being distributed. Your videos are 99% of time time well thought out and researched … but the was the 1% you got wrong. Keep up the good work!!❤

[@livingwaterministries9319]

If you read the apocrypha and the lost books it really sumes up what the bible and book of Mormon teaches .

[@jonycruz2430]

Wrong Isaiah. Is where you find the doctrine of Jesus being God. God with us. God manifested in flesh. Etc. It’s very Jewish.

[@livingwaterministries9319]

The book of Mormon is a code not literally history it is the word of god if it is decoded right.

[@cartercordingley6062]

I was told the God head is like water,steam and ice different but all the same. Also heard the egg example: shell,white, and yoke where it one but each has it own propose.

[@scottduede8134]

@20:00 Layout of Trinitarian model versus the Godhead model.

[@LPanimal6]

1:23:45

[@adamhustler3639]

Man oh man. When Larsen's around, hold your horses with notebooks out because .. class .. is .. in .. session! Lol

[@zakmakoff2277]

John Larsen is awesome!

[@krisvilas767]

Ughhh why do you have to bring politics into this? When we come here for religious truth and then politics are brought into it, it makes it seem biased whether it is or not.

[@amazinmaven]

I think part of what makes the modern human condition so fascinating and complex is how interwoven EVERYTHING is when it comes to societies, traditions, culture, religion, and yes-politics. They inform each other so much, I don't think it's truly possible to divorce them as concepts. In fact, trying to do that (to me) is an attempt to simplify and "categorize" ideas when real life is complex and messy, and attempting to do so would diminish both into a less accurate representation of which parts of our lives they influence and touch. I do understand your frustration though and you are not the only one who feels that way.

[@harlanlang6556]

In case you haven't noticed, there are Christian churches which are heavily involved in politics. The Queen of England, a political leader, is the Head of the Church of England. This combining of religion and the King in Europe is the way it was. Politics is dirty, without spiritual values, and is divisive. The Founding Fathers seem to have thought it better to not include Christianity or religion in the U.S. Constitution, but we've gotten away from this.

[@jasonwelle]

Oof! That was a cringy explanation of Nicene Trinitarianism. 😆 God is Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, but not the Son or the Spirit, the Son is God but not the other two, etc. They are, in essence, i.e. their very Being, the same God. How that works is Holy Mystery, not, like, the Hardy Boys mystery, but something accepted by faith as revealed. No, none of that is explicit in the Christian scriptures. It comes from the Christian community interpreting and theologizing what they believed about the teachings handed to them and what was in those scriptures.

[@harlanlang6556]

The majority of Bishops agreed to the Trinitarianism model, but not all. The majority had the power to declare this understanding as the one true understanding and those who disagreed were cast out as heretics. We all know that the majority is not always right. It doesn't make sense to then assume that this is God's truth just because the majority believed it so. There's nothing scriptural telling us to vote on the true understanding of scripture. Maybe this insistence on uniformity was seen as the only way to preserve a united Christian community which was seen as necessary to have a united Roman Empire. Why can't Christians worship and work together without insisting on uniformity in understanding?

[@mathewfinch]

The idea of trinitarianism was born from the dilemma that Christianity come from a monotheistic tradition, but Jesus also needs to be simultaneously God's son and divine. The Trinity was an effort to square that circle. Most of the early Christian schisms were born from disagreement about just how and to what extent this compromise shakes out (Arianism, Miaphysitism, Nestorianism, etc).

[@Geoplanetjane]

The Mormon godhead idea is weird. It seems to have no logic or rationale behind it. The Christian Churches, including the the Roman Catholic and Orthodox are all Trinitarian. The Catholics also pray to the Saints including the Blessed Virgin Mary to ask for extra help in gaining the attention of God and Jesus. The reason this is done is because to be declared a Saint there has do be evidence of miracles having occurred or performed because of prayers to the Saint having been fulfilled. Extensive evidence and proof of the miracle or miracles having happened are extensively documented before an historical figure is formally declared and designated as a Saint by the official action of the Roman Catholic Church. Christian Orthodoxy, Lutherans, and the Anglican Communion all have Saints which by one or another process have been recognized to Saints. Back to the relevant Catholic practices, they believe that the existence of actual miracles having occurred after a Christian having prayed to the Saint is proof evidence that the Saint lives in heaven and has the ear of God and Jesus. Christians do not believe in separate gods. In their belief framework, there is one God manifested variously to humanity as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, ie the Trinity. I personally think of this as if we, because of the limitations of our human perceptions can see and experience the three elements of the Holy Trinity through a prism that splits our vision in different planes, views and experiences of spiritual reality. That is, we have three different views of the one Godly entity.

[@jasonkramsey]

1:08:20 Carah and John after this 🤣🤣🤣

[@williamhinds7427]

My views on the godhead changed after I read the Seer. In the Seer, Pratt talks about how there is one priesthood yet many who hold it. I correlated that same view with god. There is one god what exists in (for this earth) three persons. 1 priesthood, countless holders. 1 god, 3 holders. I’m don’t believe in supernatural anymore but this was my initial shift before discovering it’s all made up.

[@NebjosaMeier]

I'm right there with you. My last shift was that Joseph was innocent and Brigham was a pig. Although the latter is still true, I found out the former wasn't and had to toss the baby out.

[@kararoberts9625]

The priesthood plainly defined as the power of God on earth is available to all who believe to wield. Men women and children alike.

[@amazinmaven]

Interesting! This is a new way to think of it I hadn't thought of before. I don't believe in God anymore either, but it's an interesting idea. Thanks for sharing!

[@timmiestabrnak]

One small correction on white Catholics, and I believe Catholics, believe on the trinity is one god, in three persons they were kind of make a metaphor of like an egg you have your egg, white or egg yolk and your shell. The same in essence, and purpose, but separate in person.

[@slavbarbie]

I was raised Catholic and it wasn't explained like that. I remember them saying each part of the trinity is the same, but they're not each other. Makes no sense basically

[@mrbushlied7742]

Mormonism explained: 1. A young treasure hunter with a history of being a con man was chosen by a deity to dig up ancient golden plates, translate them by use of some carnival sunglasses and magic rocks, beg for the money to publish it, and then deliver said plates to an angel that took the plates back to Disneyland. 2. God has a wife, Mrs God? If Mormons on Kolob are supposed to have an infinite number of wives, why does God only have a single wife?kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKrPXmluhdeMjM0 3. Sacred Underwear has magic powers. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJTFl5qjpNd8fac 4. Reformed Egyptian existed as a language leaving no archaeological traces. 5. Old White dudes in Salt Lake City receive? direction from a Deity on Planet Kolob. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5elc5anoMaYrbs 6. An ancient civilization existed in the Western Hemisphere consisting of Lamanites and Nephites in a limited geographical area that hasn't been found. 7. Joseph Smith's wife caught him having sex with another woman and he told her that God commanded him to have many wives. Mrs Smith believed him. Mrs Smith certainly wasn't the brightest penny in the pile! 8.Blacks were banned from the? Mormon priesthood because they remained neutral in the Great Celestial War !?! However, in 1978 God telephoned the head of the LDS and removed the ban on blacks. This, of course, had nothing to do with the Federal Government's threat of the LDS losing its tax exempt status for being a bigoted organization violating basic US civil rights. 9. Both Ann Frank and Adolf Hitler are of the same religion as they have both been posthumously baptized in the Mormon religion. In Mormon heaven, aka Planet Kolob Jews and Nazis live together in loving peace. 10. Actually the Mormon men are too busy to fight as they have to copulate with their infinite number of celestial wives. Every copulation leads to the creation of a human soul. 11.Joe Smith also wrote that the moon is inhabited by people dressed like Quakers: www.mrm.org/moon-men. I don't know why the Apollo missions didn't encounter these moon men. These 11 topics are only what I could write from memory. Please correct me if any of these facts are erroneous.? If Mormons are named after the "Angel" Moroni, then why don't they call themselves Morons? I can't claim credit for this last statement as it came from "Angels in America." However, it's so good that I had to use it. :-) See you on Planet Kolob! I'm hieing to Kolob right after I finish writing this. PS Brigham Young the Moron prophet had 55 wives all under 18 years of age when he married them. He was found of saying, "I don't care how you bring 'em as long as you bring 'em young!" PPS Where's the Inquisition when we need it!?! The Church of Moron admits that Joe Smith had a 14 year old wife and married women who were already married: www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/27/mormon-joseph-smithteenbride_n_6054272.html You Mormon wives, you devil's whores! Fester with your filthy sores! kzbin.info/www/bejne/j52Qmpt4oZt1Y6M PPPS This video compresses the Church of Moron history to less than 9 minutes: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGSlon-QbbqikM0 whilst this video does it in less than 7 minutes: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmfNd2R7fJ2iY7M PPPPS Joseph Smith has a rather long rap record that spans four states. What kind of god would pick someone so dishonest as Joe Smith to be its prophet? www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system www.utlm.org/newsletters/no68.htm Mormonism Explained Michael Albanese

[@Nick-iw3ol]

Love yall

[@blarsen8]

Written for our day. In our day! 😂

[@Analogy_Commander]

dude bro royal = t-shirt idea

[@miriamhanks5498]

This is the first time I’ve had to abandon watching one of your episodes. I wish you would have included a Systematic Theologian from a mainline Christian seminary because it was really frustrating to hear the bad explanations of trinitarianism be dismissed so easily as “not making sense” when none of you really understood the Christian perspective anyway.

[@carlawarner972]

Amen Miriam. I had to drop watching too. Not only the bad and misinformed information but then to snicker and blow off our belief. There was no respect in my opinion.

[@1000huzzahs]

I'm begging you guys to talk to Rabbis and Jewish scholars when you do your "Old Testament" research. Christian "Old Testament" scholars do NOT have the same knowledge and perceptions that Jews do, especially with regard to cultural usage of words like "Messiah/Meshiakh" in our theology. The Oral Torah informs our conception of the title and usage of Meshiakh, especially in terms of eschatology, and yes these ideas were very much in usage during that period when Christianity was nascent. We NEVER just used "The Bible," there were ALWAYS concurrent opinions/guidelines/texts. Cyrus the Great is considered a Messiah, as in a redeemer of Jews, and he's not even Jewish. Please. Talk to Jewish people, Rabbis, Jewish scholars. Especially when you bring a person on who has previously said there isn't anything good in the "Old Testament" and seems to think "religion" is the source of evil.

[@mormonstories]

I would love to bring Rabbis and Jewish scholars on the show @Riff Chick. We just need to find listeners/viewers who are familiar with what we do and how we do it. That would be most helpful.

[@harlanlang6556]

Do all Rabbis agree? I have heard Jews say that if you have 3 Jews in a discussion, you'll have 4 opinions.

[@1000huzzahs]

Because twice now I’ve heard guests try to talk about the fact that these are supposed to be “Ancient Jews” who came over to the Americas with only minimal knowledge of how Wrong Joseph Smith gets any kind of Jewish culture. Plus you just discussed the Jewish concept of Messiah in this very episode. That how it’s relevant. You don’t even need to have someone come on the show, just talk to/read sources that give accurate information about Jews. A website like Sepharia will show the scriptures Jews use (our translations) and one like MyJewishLearning will explain basic concepts.

[@OssieRichards]

From me: Jesus saying My Father and I are One Poetic license - Jesus’ attempt to convey True Oneness .. Non-duality. Not to make the Son special but to convey the will of God is his also The closest experience of the oneness in the illusion is relationship called marriage and student / teacher. These relationships are limited because they are based on duality (it eventually ends) and not non-dualism - no beginning, no end.

[@teddtarr]

My trinity of deities consists of: Bacchus, Kokopelli, & Quetzalcoatl, a combo of cosmic muffins. & hairy thunderers, checking all the stereotypical imaginary friend boxes.

[@Jeanette7981]

♥️ John Larson

[@SamM-lv8hr]

Uh oh, 1 minute into defining the Trinity and John gets it wrong. "For Catholics, Jesus is not God." This is the opposite of a trinitarian view. Jesus IS God. He is just not God the Father. They are separate people, but both are God.

[@SamM-lv8hr]

Modalism doesn't articulate the spirit as a metaphor? Modalism is the idea that God manifests in distinct modes. So there's only one person who manifests as either Father, Son, or Holy Ghost at any given time. (In contrast to the Trinity, which says there are 3 people/1 God)

[@harlanlang6556]

Catholics call Mary "the Mother of God".

[@maureenjamieson9730]

A better word to describe the persons of the Trinity is distinct. Seperate gives the impression that God can be divided into parts. He cannot, God is one.

[@jimforman3754]

Rabbi Tonia Singer can explain the whole trinity thing being idolatry from the Jewish perspective. you shall have no other gods on my face......

[@jy285]

Ha ha, Teen Witch. “Top that!”, Carah!

[@CarahBurrell]

Top tier reference 💅🏼

[@amazinmaven]

And the lesson was the magic to make her life what she wanted was inside her all along! ❤

[@livingwaterministries9319]

Fact Trinity does not mean 3in1 it's an Egyptian word for 3 separate gods god is 3in1 so useing the word trinity is miss representative at beast both the Bible and book of Mormon declar jesus is god and god is 3in1 . Fact 2 joesph smith would not like to days mormonism they have become the very evil the book of Mormon warns against.

[@chelseal654]

John you underestimate your ability to articulate the concept of trinitarian theology. I'd still like to be a guest on your show to talk more about the concept though, haha.

[@ubermormon9611]

I’m a thoughtful and respectful conservative.

[@alexbrynna]

Really enjoyed this episode but found it offputting the way I felt like cara was blown off many times, it like her commentary was treated as interrupting. Loved all of caras comments.

[@claudiozanella256]

No trinity exists. The simple reason is that the concept of a triune God was ALIEN, UNKNOWN to the directly concerned Person: Jesus!! He reiterated throughout four gospels 50 times to be ONLY IN THE COMPANY OF THE FATHER (who is a spirit), NEVER with two Persons! Thus, we are sure that NO THIRD DIVINE PERSON EXISTS. For example, the following verse is INCOMPATIBLE with the existence of a triune God "I am not ALONE because the Father is with me", i.e. only 1. Father and 2. Son are there. This means that the gospels indeed disclose THREE distinct divine NAMES, but those names only correspond to TWO divine Persons : the Father and the Son. Who is the Holy Spirit? The Father of Jesus is A SPIRIT ("God is a spirit" Jn. 4:23-24). But that Spirit - who is the Father - cannot remain a "noname spirit", He also needs his own "SPIRITNAME" in order to be identified among other spirits. That "spiritname" is "Holy Spirit". You can learn it from the speech about the two blasphemies, where the second blasphemy is of course directed to the Father. Jesus gives a name to that Spirit, He calls Him "Holy Spirit". Thus, "Holy Spirit" and "Father" (who is a spirit) are just two fully EQUIVALENT names. Since the Father is God, this means that the "Spirit of God" (the Holy Spirit) is just "God (who is a spirit)". No third divine person, no helper-God exists.

[@livingwaterministries9319]

God does not have a bodie the book of Mormon and bible are clear god is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth we use male names as athorithy but god is not male or female because spirits don't have bodies jesus is god in the flesh and should be worshipped john chapter 1 and john chapter 15 john 316 romans 323 623 5.8 10.9 acts 2.38 1john 1.9

[@TheRealCantaraBella]

I like PottyMouthPrincess for Kara as well.

[@copythatchannel]

John I’m a big follower and exmo and a conservative and I am really getting sick of the anti conservative attitude… it’s starting to get offensive that they aren’t even willing to see other peoples point of view….

[@copythatchannel]

Larson Saying things like “none of them have courage”… and cara saying “you’re wrong”… is not very open minded…

[@copythatchannel]

Seems like she is getting conservatives confused with far right extremist conservatives

[@bradchristenson5718]

Not sure John L is bashing conservative ideology as much as the MAGA mindset. If the conversation is about smaller government, fiscal responsibility, free market economy... these things make up for interesting debate. If the conversation is Trump is Jesus, the election was stolen even though the opposite has been proven, if you don't believe FOX News is the one source of truth you cant be trusted, I believe in fair elections but only if my guy wins - well hard to discuss logic and truth with that belief system, and in fact it is the very belief system that keeps people in the Mormon church. You are always right and everyone that doesn't believe that is always wrong. Not really a fertile ground for discussion. I will disagree with John L as to the old conservative voices being silent unless he means just the slate of republican electors. He mentioned Davis Brooks whom I read, there are also George Will, William Krystal, George Conway, and the whole Lincoln Project is made up of conservatives. They are all very articulate and vocal, but as intellectuals they certainly aren't going to follow a snake oil salesman. These people just don't have a home in the party because it is now a cult with a Leader that cannot be criticized. I am in complete harmony with John saying that Mormonism and Trumpism are built upon the same types of misinformation and flat lies, and both require as much cognitive dissidence as one can muster in order to follow. Don't study and reason these things out for yourself, just believe. Thanks John, John and Carah for another enlightening and humorous discussion. And fuck all those trying to criticize the Yahweh Joshua stuff - The point is the BOM talks literally about Jesus Christ and names him 600 years before he was born - don't care if his name was Steve - not the point

[@CarahBurrell]

“Not even willing to see other people’s point of view?” Didn’t I just say I used to be a huge conservative? And researched with an open mind cause I only wanted to truth to them realize I was wrong about everything… I think you’re not grasping I’ve already held those views. Very strongly. Then I grew. You can’t play the “these guys are in an echo chamber” card here. Sorry.

[@amazinmaven]

@@CarahBurrell I'm sympathetic to s116841 but this accusation really gets to me too. Especially because the one I heard it from the most is my own father. 🤦 Like, "Dad! Did you forget YOU raised me? Did YOU fill my head with all these "liberal" ideas?" *sigh. Only one of us has NEVER changed political ideology/parties and is doubling down on deeper rhetoric and the other actually knows both sides having genuinely been a true believer on both. So which one of us is REALLY too close-minded to consider another opinion?

[@kohlstrong]

I agree with the comment about maga/conservatives. John and John (both) will often talk about politics and the world in a black and white fashion, as if they somehow have a superior, unfaltering grasp on truth. They are both often dogmatic in the way they speak. (I am NOT a fan of maga, nor conservatism btw -- but the true enemy from my view is rigid ideology and dogmatism)

[@nonamebleak]

NuanceHoe is incredibly offensive.

[@OssieRichards]

[@communistsharks6889]

I'd love it if y'all had a conservative on the show! The issue is finding a reasonable conservative that's open to genuine intellectual debate because they're all too busy hiding or licking Trump's boots. But it would be fun to watch JL debate with them, I always love watching JL debate

[@frankvelazqiez2961]

Larson is God well not the God but just a god.

[@erniechambers8845]

Ah a Groundhog Day reference. One of my favorite scenes in that movie

[@kimbrown419]

Very Interesting lots to think about. I was wondering what you all think about a heavenly Mother? I just watched someone who brought this up and I have never heard this. It makes sense to me though since the book of Wisdom is feminine. Is the Holy Spirit feminine?

[@alexbrynna]

LOL CARA snooze fest cloroform In print 😂🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣

[@kararoberts9625]

Philippians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. This is the message Yeshua brought and exemplified which the Catholic Church had cut up and messed up so that they would have control over the masses through fear and keeping us unaware of Christ’s actual message to us. You’ll never be taught the truth of this particular doctrine in any organized religion that I’m aware of.

[@gdog3finally]

This is not likely to be heard here but yes, Catholicism was never about Yeshua, but rather paganizing the Messiah for all organized religion to come thereafter. The subject here is a good one though. At least in that it exposes Joseph Smith's inconsistencies with the fake first vision and the differences with the 1830 and 1837 editions of the book of mormon (I won't capitalize it). You get what you get otherwise with those involved in this episode.

[@gdog3finally]

Yes, Catholicism started it, and despite a Reformation, all organized religions coming afterwards continued the false representation of Yeshua. Appreciate your comment. It's tough when the falsities of Mormonism get lumped in with our Messiah. The two Johns and Carah don't share this view but I am at least glad to see Joseph Smith exposed in every way. The topic of this episode is one that my friends who are still in Mormonism can't answer. The multiple first vision accounts and the differences between the 1830 and 1837 are undeniable. 3 in 1 or 1 in 3 flip flopped.

[@helenr4300]

But you have this hidden truth?

[@kararoberts9625]

@@helenr4300 Only to be seeking to follow Christ with all of your heart will reveal truth to you as you lose what you think you know and open your mind and heart to eternal truths that are available to all who truly wholeheartedly seek.

[@helenr4300]

@@kararoberts9625 which means ...what?

[@kaijessen3654]

Trinity and beyond. I would like to see all three of you do this together, in the same room, and on shrooms. I am still fixated on the original church origins as being part of a mushroom 🍄 sacrament and hence the origin of feeling the spirit to guide you to the truth. John Larsen should have some more humility on what is truth. You can define ideology or define truth but you cannot experience the perceived reality of both simultaneously. This triumvirate of mildly unorthodox people needs to radicalize. Stop describing the world like Einstein physics and dive into the quantum realm of the indecipherable, the incomprehensible and the multi-dimensional. Let’s get a nuclear ☢️ level discussion where the mystery of the Holy Ghost is found somewhere in the quantum foam.

[@kararoberts9625]

God is the source of all the cosmos and all that is, that in which we never move and have our being. We and all of creation are sparks of God or fractals of God all of us together. Christ calls us to follow him progress and find ourselves equal with God as well. A very interesting and engaging near death experience from Jeffrey Olsen explains this very well.

[@JC-vq2cs]

So what is the source of god?

[@JC-vq2cs]

NDEs are generally due to the brain's hypoxia & effects on neural signaling. They are not evidence of anything supernatural.

[@amazinmaven]

I find most NDEs interesting. No consistent message though. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@kararoberts9625]

@@JC-vq2cs LOVE and Light (all information/wisdom)

[@kararoberts9625]

@@amazinmaven they are all individualized for where we are in our level of conscious awareness. But they do all have similarities of all encompassing love and Knowledge/wisdom.

[@tomwuorio6515]

I suspect you are a shameless lot. God Bless Mormons and the rest. The Church of Jesus Christ is the True Church .