The TRUTH Behind the f/11 MYTH that the PROS Know!

[@davidjefferis5832]

There is one more variable you should consider. The placement of the focus point. DOF extends in front of and behind that focus point. If you shoot at f8, go to a depth of field chart and see where your focus point needs to be in order for good (acceptable) focus to be obtained from say 15 feet in front of your camera to infinity. Then you can begin to learn about the circle of confusion.

[@codywright9741]

I was about to say this as well. Hyper focal distance will change all of this.

[@GavinDavidson]

Hyper focal distance is hard though. You have to focus on the exact spot or else the entire photo is not sharp.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Absolutely - Focus point placement also plays a big role in all of this.

[@stormfalconstudios]

I miss when lenses had DoF scales on them. Made hyperfocal focusing easy.

[@simonmaney3438]

After many years of shooting Canon lenses - EF-S, EF-L, and now RF - I have found field curvature to be my biggest problem. I have learned to push my focus point (and plane of focus) back, beyond what might be considered optimum. Generally, I have found central sharpness to be good within a relatively large focal distance range, but the edges can vary a lot (with focal distance), so I push focus closer to infinity. The center holds its front to back sharpness, and the edges also sharpen up nicely. With my RF 24-105/4 I have found that with a subject at 6-8m (20-25 ft) I am better to focus at infinity than the actual subject!

[@kevinkillsit]

I actually shot one of my favorite landscape shots on a FF A1 with a 24GM wide open at f1.4 with NDs doing long exposure. Rules are meant to be broken. Everything is subjective and sometimes you can use the focal plane to highlight the subject and create more of a "dreamy" feel. Again totally subjective though and circumstance dependant, but sometimes it just works better to push things the other way and let the "rules" be damned.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

100% agree with that!

[@RonaldPlett]

Not my favorite picture but I once captured a snail by the water. I wanted the motion blur and the shallow depth of field. So I did the same thing.

[@EmilWall]

@@RonaldPlett You got motion blur when panning to photograph a snail? I love this 😂

[@kevinkillsit]

SO FUNNY! Shutter drag roller shots of a snail have to be the funniest thing I've heard in a while.@@EmilWall

[@oak76mcdo]

Thank you Mark. As always, very well described. I did the "test" when I first got my lens to see which aperture was best and sharpest. I found 5.6 and 8 to be the sharpest. I have to admit my most recent photos I set around F11 when in daylight as my default so I will challenge myself to shoot at my lens most sharpest value. Thank you for keeping me honest! Keep shooting!

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

✅CORRECTION: Lenses generally perform the best 2-3 ‘steps’ not ‘stops’ above wide open. Thanks for catching that Rodney👍

[@ManasesRamos]

No I have NOT :(

[@michaelfarrell4824]

I do it once when I purchase them and get to pixel peeping to see what difference I can see

[@seanmichaelroper3587]

Mine are f/8. The majority of my exposures I find are either f/8 or f/9

[@johnquinn9191]

I went through my lenses and set up the "fine focus" adjustment. I am using a Pentax K3 III and my favorite lens is the DA* 16-50 zoom. I'll be using you process to find the sweet spot on that, and all the others I have. Thanks again.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

@@johnquinn9191 Awesome to hear the video was helpful John!

[@mytravellinfo]

I used to do this for almost 8 years! As I was a landscape shooter. F11. Later graded down to F8. But later I figured that when I buy a new lens I need to take photos with different F stops and figure out which F stop is the sharpest. Thank you

[@bigbrian52]

Great advice!

[@Hendrix312002]

Man I miss watching your videos. Also it looks like you have improved a lot as a photographer. The photos you shared with us are phenomenal. You were always a great photographer but you have gotten even better! Love to see it.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Thanks so much!

[@wanneske1969]

I once learned at a wedding photography class you can have an entire group of people (3 or 4 rows) in focus, even at f 5.6 if you use a wider angle lens like 24 to 35 mm. People would be tempted to use f11 or even f16 and running the risk of needing high iso (noise) or longer shutter speeds (unsharp pics because people move a little). Same story as in the video.

[@eh9692]

The F11 came from the godfather of landscape photography Ansel Adams where as he would only use very high aperture on his images, but people forget he used 8x10,16x20 and 6x6film cameras for his work. On the 16x20 f64 was the aperture used and f11 on 6x6 , to give him maximum depth of field, they did not have focus stacking.

[@magellanicspaceclouds]

I was gonna suggest that the myth probably came from a long time ago. Lenses are becoming super fast these days!

[@williamburkholder769]

@@magellanicspaceclouds Format size had the most to do with the f/11 myth. The larger the format, the smaller the aperture you need for the same depth of field and angle of view. It's not uncommon to use a 250 to 300mm lens on 8x10 view cameras. The degree of enlargement needed for a 16x20 is only 2X! So f/32 to f/64 was quite often the range. Contrast that with Micro 4/3, where f/5.6 to f/8 is more appropriate.

[@anta40]

And don't forget that large format cameras gives you greater flexibility to tune your DoF with those tilt/shift/etc movements, so you don't have to pick smallest apperture, e.g f/64

[@cmichaelanthonyimages2197]

Adams never used one single f/stop for his zone work. He metered highlight, mids and shadows and selected an average f/stop based on what he wanted to bring to the darkroom for his final image. He did a lot of film compression in post to get what he did and invissioned his final image before his first exposure.

[@tonycolburn2358]

I don't believe Adam's used a camera larger than 8x10. His enlarger could only handle a 8x10 neg. As in all view cameras, he used tilts and swings to get more in focus.

[@markillsley6488]

Fantastic video. One thing that is not talked about much which also needs to be given consideration is Diffraction and the diffraction limited aperture. Fullframe at say 30mp and you will start seeing in theory diffraction at around f/11. However you take that up some say the R5 or something around 50MP and that can come down to around f/8. The same lens at the same aperture on two different bodies with the same sensor size but different MP count may end up looking different. When you take this into account with the likes of m4/3 you are then looking at something around f/5 by the time you get to 24MP and that is even without taking into account the lens. It becomes a juggling act now, stop down for more dof but risk diffraction setting in further and softening the image regardless of the lens resolution capability or sweet spot in regards aperture.

[@robertgrenader858]

F11 for landscapes reminds me of all those Photographic workshops I took where strict adherence to Basic Daylight Exposure (BDE) was taught. That and the Nikon seminar where I was derided for shooting in Manual (Mascoshist) mode. You learn and you move on.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Hahah - exactly!

[@jdiamond9513]

When I first saw your thumbnail, I just assumed this video was going to be clickbait. But after watching another of your videos where you mentioned this one, I was curious enough to see what you had to say. I must admit, I made a wrong assumption. Not only is everything you had to say truth, but you explain it in such a way that it really makes sense. It made me look at my lenses and photography differently, and now I’m looking forward to getting out and testing my camera and lenses to see where the sweet spots are. As soon as it stops raining, that is. I just discovered your channel today and I really like your style and level of explanation. I’m an experienced photographer, but not so much in landscapes and I want to get better at them. I have just subscribed. Keep up the good work and thank you.

[@alainthibodeau9602]

As you said, knowing the sweet spot aperture help to get optimal quality for a specific lens (or should I say specific focal length if its a zoom lens). For that specific apeture then it is wise to know the Hyperfocal distance. It will tell you the closest distance that will be in focus up to infinity. Then you have different choices. You can move back until your front subject in within the DOF (no matter the size of front subject), or you can decide to focus stack if DOF is not sufficient and you visualise you front subject larger than what DOF can offer. Photography is an art, but it is very dependant on technics and science. The more you can master the science, the more crative options you get.

[@tonyp1340]

Mark, you are a gem. I mainly use 2 cameras, Lumix LX100II, Nikon D750. Most used lens range Nikkor 24-70 2.8. (1.7-2.8 on the Lumix). I have struggled with this forever, even understanding and using focus placement I struggle to get the difference in depth of field between the 2 lenses. My remedy has to usually increase the f stop which sometimes even exacerbated the problem. So it has always been a compromise, until maybe tonight. Thanks muchly for the well explained lesson.

[@markwilkins9048]

Mark, I love your videos. You are truthfully one of my favorite KZbin photography channels. That being said, sometimes your videos are too advanced for me. I often feel overwhelmed to the point that when I get out in the field to take pics,,,I suffer from paralysis of analysis. It’s not just you,,,so many other channels do the same thing. You are a seasoned veteran; so the basics of just taking great photos is natural for you. For me,,,and maybe others, the struggle is standing in front of beautiful landscape or wildlife and figuring out how to shoot it. Do I prioritize aperture or shutter speed first? I just returned from the Grand Tetons,,,I was lucky enough to get some great opportunities to photograph wildlife. But when I got home and reviewed the pics. Most of them were not very good,,,primarily because my camera setting were not appropriate for the situation.

[@armandou5833]

You’ll eventually build up to this. Focus on the concept of what he is talking about here and test your lens to figure out the best aperture. You will then figure out what the other settings need to be to shoot sharp. Take the high level concept here and test it - hope that helps #beautyiswiild

[@kenharnish5778]

I can’t say I heard that one before. The most common things I see and hear are find your lens’s sweet spot or, f8 to f16 is the best range for landscape. I have also heard that you should set focus a third of the way through the shot. That one works most of the time. I have not been able to determine sweet spot on either of my lenses.

[@stacyegan5719]

I tried f/11 on a hike yesterday because of how often f/11 or even f/16 is promoted for DOF advantage, and was surprised to see my images softer than I expected. What a relief to encounter your video here providing counter argument. I will definitely perform a more methodical "bench" test of my lens to get to know its sweet spots. This camera system (Canon R8 + 24-105 f/4L) is a new upgrade for me (from crop sensor dSLR), we're still getting acquainted. I'm not clear on how a full frame sensor impacts such things, but I get the feeling that I'm going to have to up my focus game from before, it may not be quite as forgiving.

[@Axonteer]

Over here in the german speaking part we have a saying F4 for Human and Animal F8 for the landscape (works better in german, trust me) - and even then its advisable to remember what focal lengh you use, and where your focus point is. I find it good to know your lense and roughly know how it behaves wide open, where its sweet spot is and from when difraction starts to kick in. Besides that, not everything needs to be in focus, its not like that IRL. And if one really wants everything in focus they can focus stack.

[@AK-ContentCreatIon]

Good point! IF, and only if I need sharpness from front to back, I will focus on at least 3 distances in the picture, one of which is the fartherst part- horizon, and with 40 MP FF (APSc 20 MP) and beyond, I will not go beyond F8 because of diffraction. And if something is right infront of me more steps are needed.... But as @mark denney said, no alot of pictures need it to properly tell the story.... sharpness for me is the4th or 5th on my list of thing to look for....

[@TwoTracksOutdoors]

Good information, as always, Mark. On a side note, my first reaction to your very serene Bali coastal tree fort photo is that I had to look twice and get closer to my screen, as it almost looked like a really well done drawing. Nice photo.

[@williamburkholder769]

Mark, this is great! As a veteran photographer and photo lab rat, I had encountered all of this over the last five decades. Throw in print size and cropping, too. The larger the print, the more pixel peepers will be disappointed in DOF. Most DOF charts are based on 8x10 print size. If you view any uncrossed print so it fills your visual field, it is likely to have adequate DOF. But large print sizes and heavy cropping, especially on images that are viewed closely, will require slightly smaller apertures to look their best. I'm now a Micro 4/3 user. I just avoid apertures smaller than f/6.3, because diffraction becomes an annoying destroyer of sharpness as I stop down from that point. Frankly, I seldom need to stop down beyond f/6.3, because I'm using half the focal length of full frame for any given field of view. I can use two stops wider aperture and get roughly the same DOF.

[@davehallock3102]

One of your best videos. Why? Because this is a nugget that isn't found all over the interwebs. Keep these coming!

[@FlatWaterFilms]

Being a handheld shooter, shutter speed is important too for me. So I look at aperture and shutter speed and leave ISO to auto, unless doing special effects. Now midrange aperture can be a problem shooting video. Why all pro-body cameras don't have built-in ND filters is just crippling. No, I'm not screwing around with installing a ND filter when hanging over a ledge shooting a waterfalls. 🙂 I do use the EF adaptor ND filter (keep it in my pocket) but many times video quality at F18 is good enough. Good tip on depth of field according to zoom. I need to keep this in mind. I've been more concerned with shutter speed being a gun and run type of shooter. Cheers.

[@colosine]

Most important thing I learned from practicing photography is that there are no rules, just guidlines that there is no reason not to deviate from, every photo is situational as well as your taste in the art

[@montazownianr1]

In every life department fundamentals are most important thing. There are some rules, that when broken, result is shitty.

[@williamburkholder769]

@@montazownianr1 They are called the laws of physics... ignore them at your peril.

[@michaelmanus7765]

Being one from film camera days, I appreciate that you point out that f/11 is not the same across the various “frame sizes” (formats). F/11 often for most standard 35mm camera lenses was the last f stop before diminished returns. The trade for depth came in resolution (lines resolved) and chromatic aberration. Your mention about 2-3 f stops beyond widest (lower number) f stop is a reasonable rule of thumb. Those raised on digital have the advantage of being often able to access sharp lenses and being able to find their best f stop for sharpest image, what to focus on and then perhaps focus stack with post image capture editing etc.

[@EVILGAB22]

Simon d'antremond suggested me this channel cause i asked for a great landscape photographer channel. So happy that he did and really like your contents! Keep up the great work!🙏🏼

[@haraldselke]

Starting at 6:40 you talk about taking test photos. I would strongly recommend not to do that in your house or in your backyard unless you live in a huge mansion - at least not if you are a landscape photographer. Lenses don‘t always perform the same at close distance as they do at long distances or even infinity setting. When I buy a new lens, one of the first things I do is take a series of photos at all full stops of a subject at a distance that is somewhat comparable to what I expect the lens to be used most. I then scrutinize those photos across the frame to see how the lens behaves so that I know what to expect from the unprocessed, but also from processed images at different f-stops for the types of images I usually take.

[@cacarlto]

2:23 - oh my god, that's a real photo?! I almost spit my tea out

[@steve-4045]

When I bought my first Canon Rebel, there was a deal that I could get a 75-300mm Canon lens with it for $100. It is not a good lens, to say the least. But it is what I had for a long lens. That camera mainly convinced me I wanted a better camera, so I later got a better Rebel, a T3i, but did not replace the telephoto. In 2017 I decided to go to South Carolina to shoot the total eclipse of the sun. I got a filter for that lens and glasses for my eyes. I practiced shooting pictures of the sun rather than learning during the eclipse. I leaned how to get clear shots showing the sunspots. Chromatic aberration is the main fault of that lens, and in general I wanted to minimize that and other of the lens’s faults. I found some online tests for that particular iteration of that lens, and it looked like f/11 was its sweet spot. So yes, Mark, there is a lens whose best seems to be f/11. I wouldn’t recommend the lens to anyone, but that is what I had at the time. So I shot all the eclipse pictures at f/11. They came out surprisingly well. Focusing was tricky, so I’m glad to have that DOF going for me, too. I eventually got a FF Canon and later an EF 100-400mm Mark II. I still use that lens adapted for my GFX 100S, and it does great. I don’t need to stop down so much to deal with lens issues. If Fujifilm comes out with a longer lens, I probably won’t be able to afford it. If I travel somewhere next year for the total solar eclipse, the 100-400mm lens will almost certainly be the one I’ll use on either the DSLR or the 100S. So I’ll need to research the best aperture to use, and buy a solar filter to fit that lens.

[@Twobarpsi]

That Bali picture is so incredible!! Totally surreal!🤩

[@vperalta]

I'm a believer! I enjoyed how you explained the differences and how to test to make sure all is in focus. Thanks.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@brianlemke6017]

Another thing that drives me nuts is, when focus stacking is necessary, so many “professional KZbinrs” stick with the narrow aperture they started with trying to get the whole scene in one shot. For example the foreground is so close, the shot can’t be front to back sharp at, say, f14 or f16. So then they stack the shot using those same apertures instead of opening up to the sweet spot of the lens - f8 for example. Once I have to stack, I don’t care if the stack requires two shots, three or five. Processing the stack takes about the same time regardless of the number of shots. So I pick an aperture around the sweet spot and take more shots than I need.

[@m2comms-fg2pk]

While wider focal length definitely gives you more DOF, it also "invites" you to focus on closer objects. This was the trap I fell when I got my first UWA lens - I even thought lens was faulty but when I actually started to measure distances it came out that I often focused just couple of feet away while expecting horizon to be razor sharp :) That being said, I do not think you should be overly crazy about maximum sharpness of the lens either, modern equipment lets you get away even with f16 easily despite the diffraction - no one is looking at your images at 100% magnification.

[@nat-lj8kt]

High megapixel full-frame means diffraction can begin as early as beyond f2.8. Using a modern prime lens, first decide on the DOF that you need (if it's a static scene where layers are separated by big distance or DOF is really high, consider focus stacking). Then close down aperture enough for uniform sharpness and DOF but not more. Example lenses for f4 are Sony/Samyang 135mm AF lenses. Sony 70-200 GM II 2.8 An example exceptional lens that's best at 2.8 is Voigtlander 50mm APO (f2.8 will give highest sharpness across frame). Theory aside, 5.6 works well usually but choose f8 only if you have to and consider stacking if you really need f11 or f16 if you want high frequency details to be preserved.

[@CarySagady]

Is this the same discussion as hyper focus ? Lens used to have this info printed on the barrel of the lens.

[@Meneillos]

Good video, Mark. I wonder what tripod do you use, it looks pretty solid, but is not listed in the video description... 🤔

[@techdiasphere]

The assertion that f/11 on a crop sensor camera yields a different DoF compared to f/11 on a full-frame camera, when using the same lens and shooting from the same position, overlooks the fundamental principle that aperture directly influences DoF, independent of sensor size. The primary role of the sensor is to alter the field of view (FoV), not the DoF. For instance, a 50mm lens at f/11 on both a crop sensor and a full-frame camera will indeed produce the same DoF; however, the crop sensor, due to its smaller size, will exhibit a narrower FoV, akin to what a 75mm lens would on a full frame, assuming a 1.5x crop factor. This difference in FoV is often mistaken for a change in DoF. Furthermore, when comparing lenses designed specifically for crop sensors, such as a 16mm lens on a crop camera, to their full-frame equivalents, it’s crucial to understand that while the effective FoV changes due to the crop factor (making a 16mm on a crop sensor behave like a 24mm lens on a full frame), this does not inherently alter the physics of how aperture affects DoF. The perceived difference in compression and background blur between a 16mm at f/11 on a crop sensor and a 24mm at f/11 on a full-frame camera arises from the change in equivalent focal length and resultant FoV, not a fundamental difference in how the aperture impacts DoF. Essentially, the DoF remains consistent across sensor sizes for a given aperture and focal length; what changes is our perception of the scene due to the crop factor’s effect on the FoV and the apparent “reach” of the lens. This distinction is vital for understanding how to achieve desired effects in photography, ensuring we’re attributing changes in our images to the correct variables in our camera settings and equipment choices.

[@slyne1000]

Mark... your explanation is great if we are talking about a still (no movement) short distant landscape. F-whatever is always an experiment depending on the overall depth of the shot (2 ft, 20 ft. 10,000ft.) of the subject. If I am taking a large format landscape (or even a small one) I will setup on a tripod and focus stack the shot. I would never rely on a f11 or f8 stop to capture my entire composition.

[@silvershadow4965]

Mark, thanks for making this very helpful video. I just rewatched it and have a question. If DOF becomes shallower moving from a wide angle lens to a longer focal length, or as the field of view narrows, is it then true that a crop sensor will have shallower DOF than a full frame in part because the crop sensor has a longer equivalent focal length and narrower field of view? Just look for a relationship that creates consistency comparing lenses to sensors. In other words, if my APS-C sensor has a crop factor of 1.5 can that same factor be applied to aperture at least for a starting point?

[@johnkendall5025]

Having learned photography with film and a 4x5 camera, I was very much under the influence of Ansel Adams and used very small apertures to achieve sharpness. That was 35 years ago. I quickly learned that those apertures did not apply to digital photography and small sensors. I remember taking some images at f16 with a Nikon CX sensor and being disappointed in the results. Even with newer full frame sensors I would never shoot above f8 under most circumstances. The one exception is macro photography where I do shoot a f22. The depth of field is so shallow that a smaller aperture does bring out the background even though inis blurred. Thank you for exploring this topic.

[@TimLucasdesign]

The issue I have is knowing when I have everything in focus. Many times it looks like it is in the viewfinder and back screen, but once you're in Lightroom you realize some things are slightly out. That's one reason to stop down a little more than you thought you needed to.

[@thomasdamore4653]

Mark, again you give me something to better my photography. I will be trying this soon, when snow stops in Buffalo NY area.

[@chaikgeorge]

im new to this and just tried it in the house...wow...puts everything in foreground and back ground in focus...awesome ...thanks

[@thomasdangelo1018]

Mark, great video and I agree with much of your points, however I want to challenge your statement, “here is the fact that focal length and sensor size ... matters a ton so the wider your focal length is the greater your depth of field naturally is.” Depth of field IS impacted by sensor size, all other factors being equal, but it IS NOT impacted by focal length, all other factors being equal. I think you are confusing focal length and field of view. To illustrate my argument let’s assume I am shooting full frame with a Canon 5D, 50mm prime, f5.6, focusing on a subject that is 2’ away. The total depth of field is a mere 1.8 inches. If I then change my point of focus and distance to an object of 10’ away (same imager, same focal length, same aperture) the depth of field is now a bit over 4 feet! If I again reposition and refocus this time on a object 20’ in distance, the DoF will be 18’ 8.3”. Despite the fact that in each instance my focal length was 50mm, the depth of field changes dramatically. That is because depth of field DOES change based on field of view, which is not the same thing as focal length. To illustrate my second statement, let’s this time assume a Canon 5D, a 24-70mm zoom and a f8 aperture. For the purpose of this test each field of view will be 1’ vertical x 1’6” horizontal. At 24mm fl and the mandated field of view I will focus on an object 1’ away. At 35mm fl and the mandated FoV I will focus on an object 1’6” away. At 70mm fl and the mandated FoV I will focus on an object 2’11” away. Each set-up results in a field of view that is 1’ x 1.5’. Despite the focal length changing dramatically (24-70mm), each set-up results in a materially consistent depth of field range of 2.7” to 2.9”. Depth of field correlates to distance to subject / field of view, not focal length.

[@mikefoster6018]

It's one of the reasons why I'm happy with my crop 33mm (50mm equivalent) lens for street photos. As it's a crop, I can maintain a usefully deep depth of field without having to kill my exposure (and even sharpness) with a really narrow aperture (which the full frame would need to do more often). And I can achieve hyperfocal much more easily. On the flip side, of course, I have to move closer to get subject separation.

[@EmilWall]

If you were using a larger sensor, you could compensate the higher aperture by also increasing your iso though? Should result in equal if not better image quality. The lower cost and smaller size of aps-c cameras is great though!

[@mikefoster6018]

@@EmilWall I know that the crop factor works directly on depth of field. So, for example, a full frame would need to have about 1.5 times narrow aperture (say, f2.1 compared to f1.4) to get the same depth of field. If a full frame camera at f2.1 really has the same quality as a crop sensor at f1.4, then yes I'm wrong. I know the crop sensor would receive 50% more 'intensity', but yes the full frame has the benefit (usually) of bigger light-gathering pixels to make the fuzziness of ISO much less pronounced.

[@MA-no8tz]

Another great video. Sadly many years ago I used to use F16 to get everything in focus because someone said so. It took me a few years to learn that most of the time F8 or F9 works the best.

[@artursandwich1974]

I have to say I was not aware of the f11 myth. Bottes my first photography teacher told me about a different lenses being the sharpest about three-four stops away from their biggest hole, almost 40 years ago. Coming back to photography after a long break I am happy to have this knowledge reinforced.

[@colindancey1381]

Hey mark, I’ve always wondered where you put your focus.. do you focus on foreground, mid, or background? And do you use manual or another focus mode? Thanks!!

[@charliejg]

Good points here! It seems to me that another important factor one needs to get right is knowing WHERE to focus within a scene. Of course, there are multiple methods for figuring that out. I always have to laugh to myself when I watch Thomas Heaton because he often says out loud, "focus 1/3 in" when explaining his shot and his images are always fabulous! So many variables that go into making a nice shot. Thanks again for the great info. Have a good week and a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

[@timd4524]

That's when he's usually focus stacking.

[@edwardekman9832]

Many scenes will work well if focusing in a third of the scene. One unit in focus before the focus point and two units behind the focus point will be in focus. The size of your f stop will determine how deep the units will be. If nothing is close to the lens or camera the less important this is. Also, for these situations focus stacking might be better or there could be a compromise in focus. His whole point is if you want everything in focus If I shoot a telephoto lens with everything far away it could all be in focus at say f8.

[@golookup]

I have a really strong bias from my telescope background: greater aperture is directly related to resolution. Optics are limited (rule of thumb) to 2x Magnification per millimeter of aperture. f1.4 will have ten times the resolution of f14. So the idea of stopping down a lens to f11 seems like anathema to me. My bias tends to lead to soft foregrounds in the hope of maximum resolution on target. I haven't actually peeped pixels at targets at different focal ratios.

[@alphajam1]

It only appears that a smaller sensor has more depth of field, this is because you need a wider lens to achieve the same field of view. I.e. a 35mm lens on a APS-C camera has the same field of view as the 50mm on an Full Frame. But using a 50mm has less depth of field, it also has more compression of view between foreground and the background. The wide lenses are limited for an aps-c because of the reach and the field of view. But on the other hand using telephoto aps-c has more reach. The only drawback of this is to isolate a subject from the background the aps-c will increase the distance from the camera to foreground and put it closer to the background. It will make the background more in focus and distracting. The lenses will have the came characteristics no matter what sensor you use.

[@pj2614]

Great video. However, you failed to mention the point of focus. Are you focusing 1/3 into the frame? What is your focus point to attain sharpness from front to back?

[@patrickm.9441]

I do have a lens that performs best at f/11: the fixed aperture Canon RF 800mm f/11. 😉 But for most lenses that’s indeed not the case. And no single aperture works for every situation. Very informative video.

[@LionHarp]

so very true Mark. I have as well come to this conclusion through practice on the field and sometimes I have found that at a very wide focal length f5.6 has been a great spot for me. I guess we all must know well our gear and that all it matters. Great Video brother.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Thanks a million! That's honestly what it comes down to, just knowing your gear.

[@LionHarp]

@@MarkDenneyPhoto 💯

[@Ron_Boy]

I agree with you about the sweet spot for aperture selection. Back in the day of DSLRs, the Nikkor 24-70/2.8 was at its best at f/5.6. It was dramatic. I asked a fellow Nikon shooter and he agreed about the sweetspot on that lens. But, more to the point, I rarely used that lens at f/11.

[@andrefelixstudio2833]

I’ve been taking photographs since I was nine years old I’ve never heard of the myth of F11 however there is the best f-stop on any lens for quality! Seriously good photography, it’s not about the f-stop

[@Hassanakora]

What 4k camera you will recommend, if i don't wana use colour grading to make it look better? Not for filming just for events recording Record and upload?

[@robinbregman]

Thank you. I really enjoy your videos and learn something new each time. I am a teacher and must compliment you on your teaching skills. You are clear and easy to follow.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

That means a lot - thank you Robin!

[@royhakala7999]

Right on! But often, timing, lighting conditions, camera position such being very low on wet ground, and weather prevent me from directly observing whether everything is within my set depth of field. This is especially problematic when I use a compact camera with a small view screen. You might also discuss DOF software, and possibly how to find or make DOF cheat sheets to keep in your camera bag,

[@TeresaStanden]

Never heard of this myth. I've found manual focus & focus peaking on mirrorless cameras for landscape works a treat but have definitely been caught out getting dof wrong on DSLRs, especially trying to shoot multiple wildlife subjects in low light at long focal lengths with lowest ISO on full frame sensors. Very useful reminder of the variables and not to believe everything you hear especially without validated context.

[@jamesvooghtphotography]

Funny thing is for me... I have never heard this myth before. I am definitely a weird encyclopedia of things like this, but from the beginning when my father was teaching me photography basics we always determined the best aperture to use and rolled with that. And it was because we knew what the scene would need... Well, at the time he did. I did not. With things like the Sunny 16, or the Looney 11, I think if you are starting out they are a good guide or starting point to grow from. Lots of great tips in this video and in the comments that backs all that up.

[@Sea0fTime]

I been doing photography for forty years and I've never heard this "myth" either. At least not as any kind of rule that you should always shoot at f11 regardless of scene, lens, and film or sensor size used, etc. It's pretty much always been a rule of thumb that for 35mm you would should somewhere between f8 to f16 for scenes where you are trying to maximize both lens sharpness as well as depth of field so of course shooting somewhere around f11 makes sense but that's about as far as it goes.

[@TherconJair]

Also diffraction sets in much earlier than most people think. For my Canon R6 it starts at f/11, for a Canon R5 it already starts at f/8.

[@dan.allen.digital]

Great video Mark. As a someone who grew up shooting film rangefinder cameras, we used the Sunny 16 rule for setting exposure where f16 was full sun and f11 was lightly cloudy. So more often than not F11 was the aperture used for most shots. Also, because of the inaccuracy of older rangefinders with focusing the narrow aperture helped get more in focus. I feel like some of this might have transferred to f11 being suggested as a setting for landscape.

[@len.whistler]

The sunny f16 rule isn't about using f16. You use an exposure value (EV), such as 100 ISO, f8 at 1/400 sec.

[@alansach8437]

Sunny 16 Rule: On a sunny day set f16 and use a shutter speed the same (or as close as possible) as the film speed. Thus, if shooting ASA (ISO) 100 film, set the shutter speed at 1/125 of a second. Of course you could adjust that using reciprocity. Thus, if you wanted to use f8 (a difference of two stops) you would reciprocate by shooting 1/500 of a second (two stops faster). Note that 1/100 and 1/400 were not found on old film cameras so you had to use the closest setting. It was called Sunny 16 because that was the starting point from which it was easy to calculate the correct exposure in your head. F/11 was used for bright overcast, etc.

[@JamesJi-y1d]

I think sweet spot sharpness and depth of field are two different thing. Sweet spot aperture provides the best sharpness image at the focal point. It does not mean sharpness front to back (long depth of field). If we don't want do focus stack, we have to choose longer depth of field or sharpness at focal point. For example, when we take landscape photo with handheld (tripot is not an option), we want to get everything in focus, as much sharpness as possible, shall we choose sweet spot aperture? (f8 with my camera and lens) or f11 to f14 for longer depth of field?

[@nickroberts6026]

Mark, you're absolutely right about the myth of f11, but in my experience, a more common myth that is just as unhelpful is "always shoot at the best aperture of the lens in question." I agree with you that it's great if you can, but sometimes you're going to want to shoot wide open for a blurred background, even as a landscape photographer, and sometimes you're going to need to stop down into diffraction territory to get the required depth of field because for whatever reason, you can't focus stack. "Always shoot at the most appropriate aperture for the image" is my mantra. Now clearly you're not promoting this best aperture myth either, it seems to be the thing these days that everybody wants magic settings that will get them the perfect shot, whereas we all know that with experience, one will know at least where to start with settings. As an aside, I actually have 2 lenses - current ones - whose best aperture is f11. In very large part because that's their ONLY aperture, the Canon RF 600 and 800mm f11. But they're the exceptions that prove the rule.

[@ScoTreVan]

Nice to see the kindness of others, enjoy your new space guys

[@8Nguy1948]

Where do I go to learn about the jargon you were using at the beginning of the video ? I have no idea what you were talking about .

[@tomronollo9411]

As you get to higher F ranges you can get barrel distortion-- When in doubt shoot at F8 always works for me -- also you should know thy lens- each lens has its own properties Furthermore, one can use focus stacking and bracketing to solve focus and light issues. Thank you

[@johnniewelbornjr.8940]

I chuckled immediately when I read the title and you verified it when I watched the video (good stuff, by the way). I was just as guilty for a long time, years ago, until it finally dawned on me that I was often doing more harm than good. Now I hate to look at some of those early images, especially now that I can focus stack at proper settings that fit each particular scene (supposing I desire such dof, of course). So, yeah, I grin a wee bit sheepishly when thinking back to some of my early misperceptions :)

[@kearneyjnbaptiste1579]

Off topic question, where do u get your frames from?

[@johnclapperton8211]

Depth of field varies with focal length and aperture, but the sensor is just cropping a rectangle out of the image on the focal plane. Constant field of view with different sensor sizes requires different focal length, but the sensor size isn't affecting depth of field.

[@8241979]

Hi Mark I have the Fujifilm XT5 with the XF 16-55 F2.8 and the XF 8-16 F2.8 lens. Do you have any idea which aperture produces the sharpest image?

[@DiveBC]

This is great information. I need more practice with landscape photos. My system often sits at f11+ all the time due to underwater photography. Wish i could use a lower Aprature. The reason I need to use high stops is due to the dome port for the underwater housing projecting a Curved lens..

[@captaincrankysdock9730]

Conspicuously absent from today's zoom lenses are, "hyperfocal distance" markings. Using auto focus tends to negate their value anyway. With WA & UWA lenses, switching to manual focus, and dialing in the hyperfocal point, (which varies by F stop), could be as close as just a few feet, effectively nets you sharp focus in front of the actual focal point, and at infinity "for free". (assuming a static subject, of course). I also miss the infrared focus offset mark. But the Kodak's HIE Infrared B & W, and color slide films are gone, so I guess its usefulness is pretty much moot.

[@davidrehm9681]

Cool video subject. Sweet spot = I always thought this meant something like "compromise", meaning it's not the sharpest (like usually f/5.6, ect. is) but it is definitely good enough.

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Thanks David!

[@enricomarconi8358]

Great video. Do you use a lot of focus stacking with your images? In some cases even a F/5,6 or wider (f/4) could be sufficient if your subject is far enough due to the ‘compression’ of the image you’re photographing.

[@Hodenkat]

It makes sense to find that "sweet spot" with every lens you own, and on which body (if you have more than one camera) a certain lens has the best and most useable sweet-spot for your given shooting conditions. Depending on how many different types of shooting you do, I can imagine it gets to be a long process when you buy a new lens. I think it's probably a great idea to run through tests as mentioned. I've done that before, and it can be both useful and fun! I have a 50mm f/1.8 that's incredible at about 6 feet wide open. At 10 feet, it seems to be asking me to stop down to f/2.8 or f/4 to get the same sharpness.

[@tarynsanmartino8930]

Super info Mark. Really appreciate you and your sharing.

[@SlidinDirty17]

Hey! Interesting video. I've been studying the Nikon Z series, and according to charts, the sharpest aperture is usually between f/4 and f/5.6. I think none of them has f/8 as their sharpest aperture, atleast not the ones who start at f/1.8 - f/4. Couple this together with the fact that I use a fullframe Z6 (meaning smaller depth of field for a given focal length), I assume that most of the time with landscapes I will have to shoot narrower than my sharpest aperture, if I want everything reasonably sharp? I didn't know many lenses had their sharpest aperture at f/8, according to all the charts that I have seen, this would be rare. Am I missing something?

[@besperus4475]

I use a smaller format and realised wide open just wasn’t sharp. Not that I wanted everything in focus. Coming from the “film era” I also knew f8 on medium format Kodak film my portraits would have sufficient depth of field. So depending upon you field of work within “photography” your f stop may need compromise. I agree landscape requires your outlook on this aspect. Great job.

[@fxando]

Your explanation is very good!! Indeed, there are many other factors to consider. But I will tell you that on my two Canon APSC cameras (T7i and R10), with a Canon 75-300mm lens, to take photos of the Moon, I did several tests. Dozens, with many apertures and ISO 100 and 200. The best, sharpest photos were obtained with f/11. But I didn't even know this myth, it was just a coincidence. It may be that this 75-300 lens has its hotspot at f/11, but that doesn't mean it applies to all cameras.

[@GaryPack-hi5go]

It would be helpful for me to see your focus point in each of your beautiful examples.

[@darkknightx11]

Not to be a snoop, but is that an old sony Walkman under your computer monitor at 7:47? I swear, I used to have the same one (sport edition)

[@zetetimm]

Forgetting a few things... Tripod / camera movement/ method of release. Mechanical shutters have been replaced with in body stabilization and now with Sony's Global Shutter they have removed it completely. You also somewhat glossed over the movement of the subject... Wind, especially with the choice of shutter speed, can throw small leaves- the closer to the focal plane (Better to have shaprness in the foreground and sacrifice the background) into muddy focus. Hyperfocal distance comes into play with the composition of your scenes. Knowing your acceptable level of focus distance and your tack sharp focal distances will put you into that sweet spot. You may need to "Zoom in" and select a longer lens to crop out the closer/ out of focus areas. And, like you say, you can focus stack and bracket to your heart's content with modern cameras and software. If you want to go full HDR that is also and option... depends on how traditional / purist you are :) Great work Sir! Love the videos and subject!

[@dangilmore9724]

I find that f/11 on most lenses os where defraction and slight vignetting starts. You usually see this become a real problem with the number of megapixels you have and the size of each pixel on the sensor. It's a balance between defraction at small apertures and chromatic aberration at large apertures, and refraction of the lenses. Fortunately, lens manufactures can tell you the optimum aperture range, but experimenting is the best way because two identical lenses aren't quite identical.

[@northofbrandon]

vignetting should be more apparent 'wide open' and less stopped down, no?

[@dangilmore9724]

@northofbrandon Sometimes. It depends upon the lighting of the scene. Longer exposures tend to increase vignetting.

[@northofbrandon]

@@dangilmore9724 you didn't mention shutter duration above tho... you just said F11 causes vignette. If you are using long exposures are you also using an ND? Add ons like these in front of lens can increase vignetting.

[@dangilmore9724]

@northofbrandon an ND filter would, relatively speaking, increase the exposure time by decreasing light available. The one factor that is left out of the equation is the lens itself, in particular, the circle of the lens. An old Canon EOS lens for a full frame has a slightly smaller circle than a later EF lens. You will always get vignetting to a certain degree, but that's just the nature of optics. Certain things you do will increase or decrease the effect. The best way to figure out how to affect these is by experimenting because there are a lot of factors involved.

[@northofbrandon]

@@dangilmore9724 whoosh. Not what I'm saying bro. I'm asking if you're using an ND for your long exposures bc that would add vignette from the physical attachment to the front of the lens. I've never seen added vignette at f11. F1.8, Yep for sure

[@friedenstv]

Would be intersting to to know at what ISO you used.

[@game2572]

People tend to think of aperture only in terms of depth of field and not as part of the exposure. When you use a light meter for critical work sensor size is not a option.

[@ACanadianCat]

One question I had that you didn't cover is how to make the decision between shooting at the lens's sweet spot and focus stacking and choosing one or two down from that sweet spot and getting it all in one shot. Obviously the trade offs are lens and scene specific but I am curious how you decide. Tied in with that, what is your strategy for evaluating sharpness in the field. I don't have a good experience evaluating sharpness on the back of my camera. A lot of the time I'm just wrong about what is sharp and where in the scene the sharpness starts to fall off. Lately I have taken to shooting a few versions, one at the aperture I think will work. One stopped down from from that and another with using focus stacking. Then I choose the best one on the big screen where I can tell which is sharper.

[@jimgreulich7860]

I have the exact same question... like, at what point does doing the extra work in post for focus stacking become optimal? For me personally, after just recently getting back into photography, it's a perplexing decision because I have definitely fallen way behind in LR/PS expertise. The last thing I want to do is spend hours trying to lock in the optimal focus stack, especially if it's a nominal F-stop difference in the field. The question becomes more interesting in the mid-range though... my general way of thinking is the if it's less than a stop diff to get DOF comfort, do that. Similarly, if I'm like 3 stops off, I'm clearly choosing the focus stacking option. The real decision for me anyway is that 1-2 stop area. I still need to thoroughly test all my new RF glass so hopefully those results will help me narrow it down.

[@EVERLAST223]

Be interesting to know where your focus points were on those shots

[@ThePhotographyHobbyist]

Not sure I've heard this about f/11, but I'll admit I rarely listen to anyone anymore (as of a few years ago...or longer). 😄I just use the aperture I know I may need to get the DoF I'd like, without stopping it down TOO much (I rarely ever shoot anything over f/13 on a full frame body or f/11 on APS-C). I'm too lazy to focus stack and I'm not selling my photos anyway, so as long as I'm OK with the result, that's all that matters. I do occasionally have people contact me via my photography site and ask if they can use a photo or two for something but other than that, my photos are only used by me, so my attitude about this is OK. IF I had to shoot for others/money, then sure...I guess it would matter more...or maybe not, because a person's individual style may be what actually attracted someone to your photos. If we all shoot/made the same photos, then there's no point in all of us shooting.

[@ziggggy53ify]

With an important image of a still subject or scene, it can be a good idea to focus bracket and exposure bracket with multiple captures. I can't remember how many times I rushed the first exposure, only to find out later that I made a mistake. In those cases, the extra images captured paid off, instead of trying to "fix" the first image in post, which almost never works out! (Corporate photographer for more than 31 years.)

[@deegeeofpenryn]

I totally agree and I cannot tell you how many times when lecturing I have told photographers the following; when you have paid a lot of money and maybe spent a lot of time to get to a fantastic location, why wouldn't you want to take several shots at different apertures? After all the chances of being able to view critical view your image for sharpness of focus on a tiny screen on a bright day is pushing your luck so just go through the options and you never know you might a) learn something you weren't expecting and b) maybe actually prefer the shallower DOF !🤔😏

[@john_in_Berlin]

I'm down with anyone who can talk about camera gear and strategy in a measured, articulate fashion and use the word behoove. 😉 And my god, what gorgeous photos! ❤

[@ThePaul8777]

Loved seeing the bellows camera here! One of my prized possessions is my mother's old Ansco Speedex Junior bellows camera that she bought in the 1940's and which was my entry point into photography 50 years ago. It looks a lot like yours. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@canalinativo____2024]

Is there a chart with diferent lens showing what's the sharpest intervals for each one ? Maybe in B&H whe can see this ?

[@SunshineHB]

Great video with all valid points. I just want to add a sanity check: In the world of digital photography there are no hard and fast rules. You have instant feedback and probably hundreds of test frames only limited by memory and battery. It’s OK to chimp a lil bit, people.

[@jamesollis]

I'm assuming you're in manual mode, correct? Is using apature priority a good idea? I know testing for the sweet spot can only be done manually but if in AP does the camera always pick the best sweet spot?

[@MikeLikesChannel]

I use f/5.6 a lot for landscapes, depending on the light level.

[@TheFlyingDogFish]

I never heard of this myth, but I totally agree with what you said.

[@GMC43]

Hi mark. Hey you should tell Thomas Heaton to change his licence plate 😅😅 Very informative video as always. Thanks for the tips and tricks keeps us fresh 🤝🤝

[@careylymanjones]

One reason I carry a full-frame AND an APS-C body in my bag, is that sometimes I want the greater DOF of the APS-C body.

[@DaveKingMusic]

Great food for thought!

[@MarkDenneyPhoto]

Thanks Dave!

[@markschneider1396]

Shooting at f11and beyond was a medium format film thing. Old folding cameras lost little at beyond f8, and we seldom could afford a meter so we started at ""sunny 16" and worked down, or up in very bright situations. Spoiled by digital cameras with high iso capabilities you could shoot all day at f8 and be fine.