The Twelve Tone System in Context

[@ericmintz6689]

Thanks for such a clear summary of the 12 tone system. You present it’s origins and the things that followed from it with charming short bits of musical “illustrations”. And you do it concisely in exactly 12 minutes. How perfectly appropriate! 🙏

[@robertlennonmused]

My pleasure! I'm really glad it was helpful.

[@henrybrowne7248]

🤣 That's right! Was that on purpose?

[@kevinhutchins4222]

You're a genius! A video about the 12-tone system that lasts exactly 12 minutes. Whoa.

[@robertlennonmused]

Ha ha ha! Thanks very much!

[@robshrock-shirakbari1862]

A great intellectual exercise in music progression that had to happen. And now that that's done, we can get back to more enjoyable music... whether you want to describe it as simulacra or not. In other words, there's still nothing wrong with a tune you can whistle.

[@blakedegraw7958]

I had never heard Repons before. Thanks for introducing us!

[@SooprTruffaut]

Thank you for this! You explain the topic in a way that those of us without a background in music theory can grasp, which is very much appreciated! Spoken like a true educator!

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks - I'm very happy that it was helpful!

[@robertalenrichter]

Useful, indeed. I can't even read notes, but love much Modernist music. Couldn't live without it.

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks. I'm glad it was useful to you.

[@ornleifs]

A clear and good video - I find this interesting intellectually but I have to admit that I still haven't heard a piece of music composed this way that appeals to me.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you for the feedback! Familiarity is more than 'half the battle'!

[@joshuaharper372]

I feel the same way. Analysis of these pieces feels like a crossword or Sudoku to me: a fun intellectual exercise, but I don't enjoy the pieces. I also don't much enjoy the super-highly-chromatic music that preceded 12-tone music.

[@joshuaharper372]

I had to write a piece using a tone row in college, and I subversively ended the row with a major triad: sol, mi, do, which allowed for "tonal" endings to the musical phrases. Somehow it gave me a perverse thrill to compose against the system.

[@MyMusic3149]

Perhaps this has been mentioned, but the 12-tone system is a *method* rather than an aesthetic. Think of it as an "ideas generator". Just because composers *choose* to create angular and dissonant music doesn't make the method good or bad. It's possible to make entirely consonant and lyrical music with it. I suspect people dislike many of the works created using it and for some reason equate the method with the outcome. Common practice methods (tonal harmony) can produce some dreadful music, but for some reason we don't blame common practice for the results.

[@wingracer1614]

Yes you can make more consonant and lyrical music with it, it's just that it's a really bad way to do it. And I don't mean that in a the music is bad sense but more in the craftsman sense of using wrong and difficult techniques to build the house, but still getting the job done in the end. It's like sweeping a warehouse floor with a toothbrush, or perhaps more apt, scrubbing a small doll house with a big push broom. It's the wrong tool for the job. Musicians that had a lot of the same ideas and goals but wanted something a little more lyrical and consonant chose the language of Jazz. Plus it absolutely can NOT djent, therefore it is an invalid technique. (That last bit is a joke for all you humor impaired out there. Don't take it too seriously)

[@Draxtor]

Thank you. This discussion I had with my dad at the age of 15ish many times 😅 I love him but gotta be honest: his disdain for anything composed past the 1890s or so, that was a source of many heated discussions

[@rostandhoundji6733]

So well explained ! Thanks

[@manfredpseudowengorz]

It took me 15 years to eventually take a look at dodekaphony, and 12 minutes to enjoy it. Thank You, mah good sir.

[@robertlennonmused]

My pleasure. Glad it's been useful.

[@tedpowers2045]

I am new to Classical Music. This is amazing. I can see the correlation of free jazz in the audio aspect. The music sounds so free

[@aharchives]

The algorithm suggested this video, and it was a wise suggestion! I liked how you put this system into context. The analysis was simple to follow for a viewer with but a basic understanding of "classical" music theory. The thing that struck me was the piece by Boulez: In comparison with the earlier examples, it indeed sounded atonal, but it sounded musical nonetheless. Your claim that this music couldn't have happened without serialism preceding it sounds convincing. Perhaps the namesake of my channel couldn't have existed either. He was a rare musician, often lumped in the category of fusion, but his compositions were highly influenced by the music his father played for him, including Debussy, Ravel, Béla Bartók, Stravinsky, and Copland. Do have a listen to "All Our Yesterdays" or "Endomorph" at your leisure.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much for the feedback - I will certainly check out the pieces you suggest.

[@henrybrowne7248]

Great post. I've just learned about Holdsworth recently--he grew up with another great guitarist/composer, John McLaughlin didn't he? I will definitely be checking him out . . .

[@claudioortiz4689]

Clear, authoritative, simple and didactic explanation of a rather difficult-to-grasp topic in classical music. Bravo!

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks!

[@scuellart]

Amazing video! What a great lesson (and the fact that a video about the Twelve-Tone System is exactly 12 min long makes a very fun “coincidence”)

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you very much! Yes, it seems the twelve-minute duration has caused quite a bit if amusement - not least to myself!

[@williamlenihan7536]

Thank you for this short lecture. Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Messiaen and the next generation including Boulez heard the totality of possibilities of the system of the time. Each operated in the same paradigm as the painters, writers and scientists of the day. De-centering, or exploding the center as a long-held meta-pattern was analogous to Picasso’s Cubist works, and Joyce’s poetic Finnegan’s Wake. The sublime works of Webern were understood in this light before the break in the understanding of the movement from late-Romanticism to Expressionism. It is evident also that Debussy is alive in the orchestral works of Boulez. In Europe, this is understood, felt, heard. Nono, Berio, Maderna had as their base also the work of Dallapiccola. Modernism was a rich development with its roots firmly in the nineteenth century. The technique of serialism is greatly misunderstood as taught - where students presuppose that tonal music is not also based upon hierarchies, orders, inherent and inherited method. It is taught as a number game, as an alternative to decision-making - though in fact composers took many liberties within the method until it was no longer needed to help find new order. The short-lived strict method helped to give birth to harmonic relations whose patterns and associations were somewhat already in-play along the path to the changing ways of harmonic gravity In any case, it was a multi-level movement with great connections to the aesthetic framework and spirit of the time.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

"Each operated in the same paradigm as the painters, writers and scientists of the day. " Dead wrong. Picasso and Braque took inspiration from African art. Matisse published a book called (wait for it) JAZZ. We need to quit pretending the serialists were "inline" with the visual art of the day. They were wildly out of step which is why their music had such little impact compared to painters scultors and architects. The work of say, Van Doesberg in architecture, had an enormous impact - you can see it simply by walking down the streets of any major city. Or Picasso in painting. It's undeniable that he had an impact on how we represent the world in visual art. Now. Let's hear an example of comparable magnitude with regard to atonality in music. You won't. Simply because it doesn't exist outside of the rarified and artificial environment of the classroom or faculty lounge. It has had virtually zero cultural relevance.

[@Jordan-ez2gn]

Thank you so much for making this! This stuff is so fascinating, I've always wondered what Baroque-era composers would think of these Atonal compositions and if they'd even consider it music.

[@robertlennonmused]

My pleasure! Thank you. As for the Baroque composers, you may well be right - especially since even now, there are plenty who hold a similar view!

[@finlybenyunes8385]

I think the Baroque composers would wonder what had driven the world so mad that something called "music" would exist in the 20th century that had abandoned melody, beauty and feeling in favour of cacophony and noise. No wonder popular music filled the gap left behind...

[@Michail_Chatziasemidis]

Well, to be honest, there had been a pre-Bach Baroque composer, namely Biber, that many if his works are in essence atonal.

[@nicoc6387]

An education ! Beautifully put together, too. And no risk of catching an ear-worm… (Ohrwurm, that tune that you just can't get out of your head).

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks for the kind feedback!

[@plrndl]

Thank you for your elucidation and enlightenment.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you for the kind comment.

[@johnwade7430]

Interesting presentation - I really liked your summing up of Romanticism….

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks. I'm glad it was useful!

[@tomfurgas2844]

Very clear and concise summation of the 12-tone concept.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you.

[@suzannecoholic1467]

Thank you for a completely understandable lesson in the appreciation of this fascinating music.

[@CristinaMarshal]

Why thank you; thank you---thank you! this has greatly made me aware of such a system, and one I greatly hope to labor on. Thank you, sir.

[@robertlennonmused]

Glad it was helpful!

[@bobiguitarplayer]

Deep respect!Thank you very much and greetings!

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you too!

[@joelcarvalho2001]

Excellent. Congratulations. I am happy to know that now I can, through your video, explain to the people I care about, what post 19th century music is. Thanks for the brilliant lesson.

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks!

[@hankdusommeil1065]

Very enjoyable and inspiring! It's an indeniable fact that music 'reflects the times'. Stravinsky's revolutionary Rites of Spring did not prevent World War I from breaking out, so another revolution was necessary. The twelve tone system, in turn, did not prevent World War II from breaking out, so after that, with the atomic bomb reminding us that we live in One World, music went global. And the internet not only crosses borders in the spatial sense, but also in time. You can in one swoop go from Guillaume de Machaut, to the very latest thing in any genre, any kind of fusion, and any kind of pitch. If it makes you happy, you can create your own microtonal system consisting of 432 microtones, all centering around A=432 Hz. And you might just create something called, for instance, 'Glissando In Blue', sounding just like an old fashioned New York City police car! Nothing wrong with the 12-tone system though. I love it, especially after having listened to, for instance, the Eroica twice in one decennium.

[@OfficialDanieleGottardo]

What a remarkable lesson! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much!

[@oiartsun]

Thank you for this overview. This video is my introduction to your channel and I appreciate your clarity and unbiased exposition of the music history leading up to, during and after the Twelve Tone System. I would be interested to watch and listen to you cover a whole series (!) on this subject, going into more depth on specific composers and pieces.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you very much for your feedback. I am planning to do videos on other composers (Messiaen coming soon) but if you have any suggestions, I'm happy to hear them.

[@Irys1997]

This is not only the best explanation of the Twelve Tone System, a nearly impossible subject to explain to pretty much anyone, I think it might be the best explanations of any subject I've ever seen. At least on KZbin, certainly. If you're looking for other nearly impossible subjects to tee off on, try Wittgenstein's Later Period. Should be a piece of cake after this!

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks for your very kind comment. I'm flattered by the suggestion I could explain Wittgenstein! However, I have explored other quite complex musical phenomena, if you are interested. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5KUamqtprV2qrc&lc=Ugw0DdKKG_-FxXEc12J4AaABAg Thanks again.

[@Nilmand]

Very interesting video. I watched many other videos regarding the 12-tone system but this is the most clear one and maybe the only one with some examples. And it is also so short! By the way I love the Suite for Piano.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you very much. I'm glad it was useful!

[@henrybrowne7248]

I couldn't connect with much of the stuff before Repons, but Repons was rather lovely.

[@Gwailo54]

I went to Paris for an immersive Boulez and Cage series of concerts. I was blown away by the committed performances and it was the first time I had heard his piano sonatas live. The first two were surprisingly old fashioned to my ear. Boulez ‘s writings Sonate que me veux_ru? came into focus. For all his intellectualising, Boulez built a thick smoke screen around old fashioned virtues. The devoted Parisian audience loved it. As for the Cage vs Boulez divide, Boulez won on by a country mile despite committed performances.

[@allatsea2746]

Very well done! I was only surprised that Josef Matthias Hauer wasn't even mentioned.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you! Choices have to be made, unfortunately, in the interest of providing a brief overview. Perhaps there's subject matter for another video, though, because Hauer certainly was an interesting character and composer.

[@christiaandemarezoyens4720]

Excellent presentation, thank you!

[@robertlennonmused]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@humbertocolacio428]

Bravissimo!

[@robertlennonmused]

Grazie molto!

[@Marc-sb6zr]

Very much enjoyed this video. I have a tone row in four beats and it swings. Only the bass is strict tonerow. The head is an independent melody.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it!

[@PeterBrookF1]

Serialism was an interesting experiment in applying a sort of mathematical symmetry to harmony, but in terms of artistry it is completely found wanting. It shares the problem of a lot of contemporary classical music that followed of sounding to the casual listener as nothing more than aimless random notes that can only be understood with an essay of programme notes dissecting it. No obvious harmonic progression, no easily identifiable melodies, no clear program, and by its nature incredibly self-limiting in expression. Fortunately the early 20th century still had composers such as Copland, Britten and Vaughan Williams who were able to move classical music forward in a way that was much easier on the ears, which has continued to this day with figures such as Whitacre and Reich.

[@Gwailo54]

I think you need to check out Copland in more detail. I’m referring specifically to Connotations (1961-1962). As for Britten, he toyed with all twelve notes beginning with The Turn of the Screw. Its famous theme which is the subject of variations linking the scenes. There are little bits and pieces where, within Britten’s works that he works with all twelve notes and yet how many hear the level of total chromaticism. The chords of the opening gesture contain all twelve notes. The prelude builds up a chord working towards a twelve note chord but that collapses for the Owen theme which completes the sequence. You need to check out the opening scene of Death in Venice and its cumulative chord. The sketches for the opera have instances where Britten wrote out all twelve notes and crossed them out one by one within the relevant passages. It is one of those what if examples that had Britten not fixed so young, where would this fascination chromaticism have gone and seeing possibilities of writing, in his own way, twelve notes not breaking down tonality but to create a strong tonal chromaticism and structural instability. You see, writing with all twelve notes has many options and even the arch criminal Schoenberg in his Ode to Napoleon uses a hexachord which in combination produces all twelve notes and the work ends defiantly, if not convincingly, on a chord of E flat major. Stravinsky’s late period was technically based on Krenek’s technique of using hexachords from a matrix and in Requiem Canticles one of the two rows has a melodic/harmonic bias towards chromatic tonality. this creates a curious effect with Stravinsky breaking nearly every rule in the twelve note writing hand book to create an extended tonality in several places. The Lacrimosa exists in that twilight area. His final work, The Owl and Pussycat is hard to believe as a synthesis of twelve note melodic writing coupled with a canon I think Webern would have doffed his cap at.

[@michaelkalmar9575]

Very informative. Thank you.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you. Glad it was useful.

[@SticktheFigure]

I remember learning all this when studying for my theory degree but it's been some time since then. Excellent video and a fantastic refresher!

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks - I'm glad it was helpful!

[@DJVERUCHI]

Thanks for the great content Mr. Lennon

[@robertlennonmused]

My pleasure! very glad you enjoyed it!

[@exalted_kitharode]

Fabulous video

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks!

[@frankvaleron]

Well that was fascinating. And expertly done

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you very much.

[@skeletonstaff]

Great summary, thanks so much. One question regarding Shoenbergs Klavier suite - after the highlighted tone row, the piece then has several bars where multiple repetitions of the same note occur. Was he only applying the 12 tone system to some sections and not others?

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much for the kind feedback. Immediate repetitions of a pitch were allowed - just not with other pitches in between. Having said that, Schoenberg did break his own rules!

[@theKobus]

"Toward the New Music" is like 50 pages long and really great (but this video pretty well covers it)

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks - that's good to know!

[@tj-co9go]

Good summation. I do love Faust symphony and Tristan und Isolde. I have tried often, for dozens or hundreds of times to listen dodecaphony and serial music, but I really never have liked it. There is just something in it that makes me hate it on a visceral level. However more moderate modern composers been, like Scriabin, Stravinsky, Honecker and Lutoslawski have been enjoyable to an extent. Yet tonal music, like Beethoven's and Rachmaninoff's, music is probably still my favorite, there's no escaping the fact. I have played piano for 15 years gone to lessons on playing, composing, improvisation and theory, listened to classical music regularly so I should have gotten the taste by now if I would get it

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks for commenting!

[@musicfroth]

Excellent overview, excellent video work. I think there's a step further in this discussion to be taken, and it would depend on you, Mr. Lennon, to take us by the hand --- or ear --- and persuade us that the music that came out at the other end -- Repons, Gruppen, etc. --- has some aesthetic value. And if it has --- where would you direct the listener's attention to appreciate that?

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much for the positive feedback. The greatest part of perceiving aesthetic value is, in my view, familiarity. Our immediate (largely emotional) reactions to some modern pieces often get in the way of concentrated listening, so repeated exposure is of benefit: the reactions, and accompanying thought processes, tend to subside so, to answer your question, I would want gradually to direct the listeners' attention away from their reactions towards what is actually happening in the music. As for it depending on me, that would seem like an awesome responsibility - but I'll do what I can! I would also suggest @samuel_andreyev as an excellent source of further information and insight. Thanks again for taking the time to comment - I appreciate it!

[@albertomuller212]

A comment from a complete outsider (just a person who likes music a lot). At the beginning of the video, you very well explain how the quest for expressing feelings through modulation, up to the point to go up to un-resolution, led to atonal music. If I am right, thanks a lot for your explanation; if I am not, it is just my fault, my apologies. Now, my question or comment is if there is such a quest for expression in this XXth century music. Your explanation seems it pointed more to some kind of formal experimentation or research; this is not a criticism, just a statement, I would like to know if you agree.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much for your very thoughtful response. On the first point, yes, I was attempting to highlight the point that atonal music is the result of an evolutionary process. Regarding your question, again yes, but the continued evolution led to greater analysis and abstraction as it did in the visual arts: there are several parallels between Webern and Kandinsky, for example. Furthermore, a good deal of late 20th century and early 21st century music falls into the category of ‘spectral music’ in which the acoustical properties of sound sources are analysed and the findings utilised in pitch and rhythmic organisation - so timbre becomes the basis of the other musical structures. The entire process of how this has happened both consciously and unconsciously, throughout music history, is described more detail in my series, ‘Pythagoras & the Music of the Future’, especially no. III: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6CTdGitlK-BpJo parts of which were used in the video you have commented on. Many thanks, again, for taking the time to respond.

[@albertomuller212]

@@robertlennonmused 👍👌

[@goldenthunder1166]

@@robertlennonmused Surely atonal music is the result of a *_devolutionary_* process: a path from, let's say, the peak of the Romantic era's harmonic, melodic and rhythmic rules, customs and aesthetics (which HAD *_evolved_* over the period of centuries) to the complete *_rejection_* of the said rules while retaining the instruments and notation of the said tradition. There is, to me, a very fine but clear difference between opening up the harmonic possibilities of the tradition and simply ignoring them or never having them. The best two people to demonstrate this point are Scriabin and Schoenberg: the first had a long career of traditionally-identifiable music before he tried the much more dissonant; whereas Schoenberg gave up on traditional harmony very early in his career, by his Opus 11 (atonality) in 1909, and then discovered that he needed actual structure (dodecaphony), thus creating *_his own_* rules. Excepting use of conventional notation, neither atonailty nor dodecaphony require ANY knowledge of traditional or even Romantic theory or music to compose, nor even any pre-cognition (or care) of what the music will sound like when it is written; instead both require the ability to arrange notes on a page. A skill, yes, and one that can be done very well, but it is certainly not an "evolutionary process".

[@LendallPitts]

Very good. My comment would be that despite the retreat by Boulez and others into freer compositional techniques other composers, and i am thinking in particular of Milton Babbitt, have continued and continue to this day to do interesting and beautiful new things based on twelve tone technique.

[@robbes7rh]

Nice compendium of this genre that is not easily warmed up to despite having been extant for more than 100 years. It’s interesting that abstract expressionism in the visual arts is much more widely embraced by aficionados and the public alike. The Jackson Pollack drip painting no. 5 from 1948 sold at auction in 2006 for $140 million. Put on an all Webern program in a large concert hall and it likely wouldn’t draw even 140 people. It’s a tough sell but these composers delivered on the promise to create music that was completely liberated from the tyranny of traditional harmony.

[@boptillyouflop]

You can free yourself of how European harmony works... but you can't free yourself of how the human ear works.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

@@boptillyouflop precisely.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

Expressionism from Kirchner to Pollack is of high quality, has energy, humanity and cultural relevance, hence its popularity.

[@robbes7rh]

Is that to say you find those things missing in the music of the Second Viennese School?@@edwardgivenscomposer

[@tezzo55]

Damn, I'm going to be whistling that all day now!

[@robertlennonmused]

Ha ha. I'm sure you know the story of Schoenberg claiming that the time would come when the milkman would whistle his music while doing his rounds!

[@tezzo55]

@@robertlennonmused 😂 I thought I heard him whistling a twelve tone tune just the other morning, but it turned out to be hooligans letting my tyres down!

[@IWantMyTimTV]

Thank you.

[@robertlennonmused]

Pleasure!

[@bennywise410]

this helped a lot, thanks!

[@robertlennonmused]

Glad to hear!

[@jsteele07189]

highly useful presentation! Do I like listening to this music? No, not at all. But I know why it exists now, and at least I can see that it's not just random nonsense. Thanks for the video!

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks!

[@EddySunMusicProbe]

You did not mention the seminal work by Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992). He was indeed the teacher of many of the composer you mentioned in the video.

[@robertlennonmused]

Obviously choices have to be made when making a brief overview. I have enormous admiration for Messiaen and am planning a video on his contribution - but again it will be brief, so choices will have to be made. Thanks for your comment.

[@afrigal2420]

still love it!!

[@juanpabloisaia9301]

Thanks for sharing some other historical concepts on atonal music and other forms on organizing musical pitches outside the tonal system. Fairly, it is very hard to agree on general aesthetics concepts of "beauty" from the romantic tonal vocabulary pre atonal age. As far as difficult it is to abbandon the tonal romantic armonic system in a radical fashion, also because it was unexplored ground in that historical period. However it's also interesting how in that period also the recurrence to medieval techniques of organization are evident. Schoenberg's style is more predominantly based on counterpoint than on a harmonic style per sé as could be clasicism or Mozart's period. The concept of "varietas" from Dufay also is sort of an embrio of the idea of serial hierarchy. Anyway although many real awfull sounding pieces have been written under these techniques, the work on this aesthetics is worthy of respect and reflection, as they are the attempt of creating something really new, far from the traditional, more ear friendly, styles of tonal organization.

[@LRPMQLRPC]

Nice work! and for me, it was a good primer for atonal music.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much. I'm very pleased you found it useful!

[@hisky.]

amazing video

[@robertlennonmused]

Glad you think so!

[@alontrigger]

Very interesting. I wrote a Master's research paper on areas of tension and release in Shonberg's piano concerto. My conclusion was that these were created mainly by using gestures borrowed from Tonal music in a Non-Tonal context. Furthermore, although this piece was officially written in a serial technique it was not always strictly kept when it didn't fit Schonberg's musical expression.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks for your comment. I would agree wholeheartedly with your point about Schoenberg's tonal gestures in an atonal melodic/rhythmic context. It's also noticeable that he didn't mind breaking his own 'rules' when necessary, as you mention.

[@marrrtin]

I'll admit this music doesn't excite me much, but the lesson was fascinating.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much - that's good to know.

[@edengongbang]

Thank you 잘 보고 갑니다!!! 😄😄

[@SwaagMan]

Awesome video

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much - glad you enjoyed it!

[@jonrettich4579]

Thank you so much for this succinct and comprehensive presentation. What would compel me to seek any of this type of audible experience? Certainly not your responsibility but a site to ask this question. Thank you again.

[@robertlennonmused]

My pleasure. Thanks very much for commenting.

[@ericleiter6179]

This was one of the best explanations of the 12 tone system that I have ever seen...thank you for posting this and I was also wondering what editing software do you use to make these videos?

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much - that's great to hear! I use 'DaVinci Resolve' for video editing and 'Reaper' for audio.

[@ericleiter6179]

@@robertlennonmused Thanks, I was impressed with the video quality besides the content...until your presentation I never understood how the harmony was constructed in these pieces and I also thought your break down of the Webern concerto was very illuminating as well, thanks again

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks again - I'm very pleased it was of use.

[@Ihitthings3]

It’s interesting. At 6:14 you discuss creating chords - the first one could be G7b9/F, then Db13/F# and the last one (tricky!) [E (Fb] C# (Db) C Eb (or D#)] Cmb9addb4 /Fb - enharmonically of course Jazz Harmony!

[@UtsyoChakraborty]

Great video!

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@markenbysk4422]

Thanks for the great research & info; 1 question: how could a composer ever write spontaneous music (ordered sounds) under the 12 Tone rules devised by Schoenberg? Thank You

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks very much for your comments. Your question is an interesting one. I'd say that all composers operate under certain constraints and limits - often self-imposed but sometimes not, as in the rules of common practice harmony. If you wrote purely spontaneously, there would be little structure and therefore little musical 'meaning'. I can honestly say that there was a fair amount of spontaneity when I composed the little piano fragment used in the video to demonstrate the use of the twelve-tone system. I hope this helps - I appreciate your asking the question!

[@unclespeller6568]

What's the opera at 0:56? Very remarkable set design.

[@robertlennonmused]

Götterdämmerung, Mavrinsky production. Remarkable indeed!

[@stevehinnenkamp5625]

Total admiration for your concise, knowledgeable essay. Splendidly presented. Yet, I cannot at age 70 not feel an authority prevails which hampers freedom of expression. That is a grave injury to music making.

[@robertlennonmused]

Many thanks for your positive feedback. My presentation attempts to give the general story - after that, appreciation is down to familiarity and personal taste. Thanks again.

[@pauldavies5611]

Are you implying that composers should continue to write romantic music?

[@hotdrumman]

So, what is the more free-er style of atonal composition.. Is there specific technique, Birtwistle had some techniques... Is it just spontaneous notes.. Many thanks

[@robertlennonmused]

I don't think there is a specific technique but the 'freer' atonality can be found in the work of many composers: Birtwistle, as you mentioned, Berio, Boulez, - and Stockhausen changed his approach several times without returning to tonality! Spontaneity is often tied to invention but, after that, some kind of structure and logic has to be created. I think it was Benjamin Britten who said "Composition is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration". I think he had a point.

[@johnwade7430]

You missed out Berio (apart from a photo) and in mentioning Boulez’s ‘Repons’ you didn’t mention his use of live electronics…..

[@robertlennonmused]

True enough. I just needed to make some decisions based on relevance and/or conciseness. Not to say Berio isn't relevant, of course, but he could be included in the "... and many others" part of the commentary. I didn't see the live electronics issue as relevant to the point being made, by the Boulez example, about serialism. However, this information is on the score cover depicted, albeit in French. In any event, I'm very grateful that you watched to the end and took the time to comment! Thank you.

[@TheBartok44]

Nice

[@johnurquhart4614]

Nice succinct overview, thank you. You do know that the Debussy 'Voiles' audio example contains a rather major mistake, don't you? Doesn't spoil anything but might be worth fixing.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you. As for the audio editing error, you are right and I'm horrified that it 'slipped through the net'. It can't be edited so I have added a note in the description. Thank you for pointing it out.

[@RichardDownsmusic]

Fanstastic channel!

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you very much!

[@johnnynoirman]

Liszt sounded like Bernard Hermann with those augmented chords--or more vice than versa.

[@commentingchannel9776]

Further note that the twelve tone system, serialism as a whole amd atonality are not synonyms for each other. Serial procedures can be used with tonal functions, rhythm, texture... and atonality can encompass even some of the music by Wagner or Liszt.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks for taking the time to comment but at no point do I treat twelve-tone and serialism as synonymous, and the application of serial procedures to parameters other than pitch is discussed. Thanks again.

[@housepianist]

Very interesting. However, I can't help but think that there's somehow an uncorrelated relationship between atonality and harmonic order. Basically, it's like you have to have a discourse in structure and order to support a discourse in melody and harmony. Can you imagine taking the structure of, say, a Mozart phrase and turning it into an atonal passage without disrupting the integrity of that structure? Or taking the structure of short Schoenburg piano passage and turning it into something very tonal without disrupting the integrity of that structure. In other words, it's almost like you have to "compromise" certain rhythmic and phrasing components that would work in a Mozart piece, for example, and completely dismantle it for 12-tone to be most effective. Maybe this is why most people don't care for atonal music in its purest sense because it (intentionally?) lacks a rhythmic or tonal-like structure - at least what we can recognize as such. This may be why jazz can support a more "atonal" application because of a strong (and perhaps accessible) rhythmic foundation that most jazz music supports. I think people naturally need to cling to some identifying pattern or motive to make the "inaccessibility" of 12-tone more aurallly palatable.

[@robertrust]

What I really love is how the music of Arvo Pärt evolved out of serialism. A lot of the same structure restrictions and limits exist in his tintinnabuli music.

[@judychurley6623]

Sounds a lot like Frank Zappa. (Well FZ sounds al ot like much of this.) Any connection?

[@robertlennonmused]

There's definitely some connection. Check out Boulez conducting Zappa: kzbin.info/aero/OLAK5uy_mw60IDHqtDqsRRJ0dzh0jMce5J7TUVxEg

[@shanehen]

I was going to say that Zappa really needed a mention here, as he was a tremendously talented 12-tone composer. But he has always been a bit of an outsider and doesn’t often get mentioned with the greats.

[@raticide4you]

It always amazes me that classical educated persons do not understand that music until the end of the 19th century was based on notes, keys and melodies. By that time this approach ran out of steam and became overtaken by chord-progression based music that lasts until now. Many classical composers tried desperately to find new ways within the old way of composing but to no avail. Chord progression won.

[@callahanstudio]

This video is commendable in that it presents its subject without judgment of the aesthetic value of a system wherein intellect endeavored to replace feeling. While it may be interesting to analyze that system's formalities and their permutations, I really have to ask Ives' famous question and add one of my own. Listening to the results, I wonder who cares ultimately? Who really loves this music with whole heart? In my estimation a twelve-tone approach makes for startling special effects and wonderful tensions within the context of the traditional tonal system, but the nihilism of a purely atonal approach simply dismantles one of humanity's greatest and most meaningful inventions. Whereas Bach builds a cathedral of sound full of fervor and formality, Schonberg demolishes one and arranges the building blocks into interesting piles, careful not to evoke deep feeling even at random. I am always suspicious when a composer, artist, or writer makes a preemptive announcement that something has been done to death; that it has exhausted the possibilities. I tend to think it is rather a personal lack of inspiration that has exhausted the artist's creativity.

[@enriquesanchez2001]

The MOST important question, is WHERE has this brought us to now. What has developed from this! :)

[@robertlennonmused]

Good question - and a good subject for another video!

[@enriquesanchez2001]

@@robertlennonmused Yes sir! ♥

[@junacebedo888]

The opposite of this is; is minimalism. (Glass, Reich, Adams etc etc)

[@justinludeman8424]

I have heard cats on keyboards compose similar masterpieces 🤭 Anyway, this was very informative; a useful deconstruction.

[@jangelbrich7056]

I cannot even read a score at all ... still this was "useful" i.e. shading some light into this kind of "uneasy" music that often sounds like a deliberate irritation, so randomly that an untrained ear hears nothing but noise clusters. I wonder if there is more historic context beyond music to this, like how Cabaret Voltaire can be seen as a reaction to the madness of WW I ... the romantic "sense of order" that is finally being lost in the 20th century.

[@foreignparticle1320]

Thanks for the explanation. But I still hate it.

[@stooch66]

This is forcing a system on the ear….rather than what the tonal system did, which is to recognize what the human ear found pleasing… I mean, why can’t you use the tone more than once in a row? It’s an arbitrary rule. It is simply meant to put some structure to it and create a challenge. Then, they can sit around and congratulate each other for following the rule and creating something new…without any consideration of the audience or posterity. It has killer composition for modern audiences and anyone who pretends it didn’t is simply trying to convince themselves of their own sophistication. This is puzzle making and solving with musical notes.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks for this interesting response. I can’t help but disagree with your views but I 100% respect your right to hold them! My view, as explained in the video, is that atonality and the twelve tone system are, far from being arbitrary, the result of an evolutionary process. One composer builds upon the work of an earlier one and so forth. Your question regarding the repetition of tones in the row is answered in the video. Regarding what is pleasing, I can assure you that I, and countless others, derive enormous pleasure from the works of Schoenberg, Webern, Boulez, Stockhausen et al - but familiarity is key. Disagreements aside, I am very grateful to you for taking the time to comment.

[@stooch66]

@@robertlennonmused thank you for the respectful response!

[@alsatusmd1A13]

@@robertlennonmused your view, if I am correct, is the mainstream academic view that any self-respecting music scholar is expected to hold regardless of personal musical tastes. Also, anyone who derives true pain from the works of Schoenberg, Webern, Boulez, Stockhausen et al. is no less familiar with them than anyone who derives enormous pleasure from them, but they just come to the opposite conclusion.

[@lukeserrano62]

Oh yes, the 12 tone system -the bastard child of equal temperament- was always totally arbitrary. It doesn’t follow that a period of great chromaticism in music (this wasn’t the first, after all, check out Gesualdo) must necessarily give way to a 12 tone row system of composing. Sure, go ahead and write atonal music, I quite like atonal music in small doses. But to solve the challenge of ‘what note to select next’ by inventing and developing a musical puzzle system is not the inevitable response to the challenge of writing atonally. It was just Schoenberg’s response.Atonal and 12 tone music are not synonymous.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I have a view about how the twelve tone system evolved and about how it influenced later composers as laid out in the video. I have no desire to impose my own musical tastes on anyone else - only to explain a few things that I know can 'unlock doors' for some people. I wholly respect their right to 'come to the opposite conclusion', as you point out.

[@jamescruz7016]

I think there’s an infinitesimal gap between delaying resolutions (late romanticism) with inventing a system with no need for resolutions at all (atonal). One is music and the other one is not.

[@AudioLemon]

I think that the arts were losing cultural ground to the brute force of maths, physics and mechanics. This and the world was changing - electricity, cars, street lights, noisy factories. There was a need for new music to describe this new world.

[@edwardgivenscomposer]

yes. it was called "jazz"

[@grangetowncardiff6935]

Interesting. But the subject matter is now fortunately irrelevant. Time has passed on. Pip pip.

[@robertlennonmused]

Thanks! You mean time has passed on like it has since Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner...? Toot toot! :-)

[@johnmcallistermusic]

Great video!

[@robertlennonmused]

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.