The Twisted Accounts behind Gypsy: A Musical Fable

[@TheDramaDorks]

Edit: in regard to 'May/Let me entertain you'. June and Louise sing 'May We' as the kid's number. Older Louise sings 'Let me'. In the scene prior, Rose is searching for music and finds 'May we Entertain You' - but instead calls it 'Let Me'. In context to the video - I said that Rose suggests she sing 'May we' - the song choice is correct but the title has slightly changed. I just wanted to highlight that Rose wanted Older Louise to sing the song that June sang as a child which is 'May we Entertain you'. Thanks for watching guys! This was way longer than I intended it to be, but I’m super proud of it ❤️! There were many nights where I just sat so befuddled on how to do these swell ladies justice, and I only hope I achieved that. Please like, subscribe & share with your fictionalised stage mother 💃🎭🌹!

[@sandrashevey8252]

It is okay in Hollywood to be a stripper but not to advertise it. If people know, that`s it. You`re finished. Gypsy or Rose and June were so much better than what they got to do, the success or lack of it they achieved or did not.

[@deniseweinke9929]

It was fascinating. I never knew the background of June. I am a big fan of what ever happened to Baby Jane? Thank you for all the research and effort. I truly l enjoyed this.

[@DayByeDayChristineOKArtist]

Just subscribed 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼💜 Bravo!!!

[@Miss_Camel]

Excellent video! I love this musical much more than I probably should. Also, “I don’t care what it is, you either play me or pay me” is 100% my new life motto. Take from that what you will, idc. Haha

[@larrydirtybird]

I loved this video. I first saw Gypsy (twice ) on Broadway in 1990, with Tyne Daly, and Linda Lavin, as Rose. I’ve been a huge fan of it ever since. I also saw the later Broadway revival starring Bernadette Peters, and felt she was miscast in the role of Rose. But now, after watching this video, I see that Gypsy Rose Lee’s description of her mother… Bernadette Peters fits it better than any other actress who played the role on Broadway or on film. 🤣

[@tejaswoman]

Always found it so sad that June Havoc's takeaway from the musical was that she came off looking bad somehow. Every version I've seen, June is portrayed as talented and wanting to pursue legit education, but being stymied by her mother's desperation. She never comes off as looking jealous of Gypsy in the least, nor being selfish by running away.

[@coyoteartist]

I don't know if what I get from that is what she felt but to me it sounded a bit like she thought she came off bad because she was a catalyst for the primary change. Regardless of if you can understand why someone did something and can even feel for them, that role as bad guy is still set in stone.

[@poetcomic1]

Historians odf old vaudeville exult "You have no idea how talented, charming and wonderful Baby June was.

[@stevielove4778]

Same!! I am even confounded by this creator’s repeatedly calling June “spoiled” and “bratty”-- I don’t think there’s any material in the show that paints her as such ;; It presents her as favored over Louise, YES- receiving better treatment, more acclaim and perhaps (sometimes) more comfort- ((but not *Much more* )) - I suppose when one child is treated better, you might describe them as being *spoiled* by the parent, but I would not say the character of June herself is “spoiled” as a personality trait. Any favoritism, in my opinion, was not given because of any real care or respect to June’s thoughts or wants, but used as manipulation and triangulation against Louise/ (anyone else.). June looks and performs how her mother wants - so she is rewarded. She rewards the behavior that benefits HER ;; I don’t think EITHER of the girls’ feelings were treated as priority at all. Now, a child may not realize this until later in life, so the favoritism** WOULD influence the perception/ and personalities of both girls - but I have never noted an indication in any production of Gypsy (and certainly not in the text), that the character of June is “bratty” - at all. I have always found the character very sympathetic, despite not being terribly developed.

[@infonut]

I am inclined to believe they were ALL monstrous people and hiding much more then they will ever admit to. Those were rough and desperate times.

[@LynnHermione]

@@infonut you are so gross for calling two abused children monsters

[@rebeccaaugustine8628]

From my impressions of any versions of the musical, "Gypsy," I never had the impression that June was spoiled, just exploited, like the other children. She may have been "set apart" because she was perceived as having more talent than the others, but what a price she paid for it! Of course, who knows what really took place?

[@barbieschweitzer820]

I had my doubts about this video essay when it began with the heavy duty Mozart, but it ended up being very thoughtful and well done. Hooray for real narrators and no AI voice! I was glad to hear so much about June Havoc. Holy crap, was she really married at 12 years old? Both sisters were complicated people. Beautiful, strong, creative women, making the best of their talents and opportunities. They genuinely loved their mom. Great work Drama Dorks!

[@sequinrosette]

Hi, this is Carolyn Quinn, the Author of MAMA ROSE'S TURN. This is a FANTASTIC video that you made here and it's very well done. I still wonder about the inconsistencies between the musical and the various versions of the truth. BRAVO! The Drama Dorks RULE!

[@TheDramaDorks]

Thank you so much, Carolyn. I always wondered/hoped if you would stumble across this video. I am soo glad that you enjoyed it. Thank you for all your hard work on documenting the lives of these fabulous women, it's very much appreciated.

[@sequinrosette]

@@TheDramaDorks Thank you! You can always get in touch with me through my website - www.carolynquinn.net.

[@Katerine459]

I read both Gypsy's and June's memoirs many, many years ago. Barely remember them now, but I do remember my reaction to them. Specifically, I remember that I'd noticed many contradictions between the books, as well as areas where they contradicted themselves. Between that and the fact that both of them portrayed their mother as... umm... a little short in the integrity department... I was mostly left thinking about how values can be passed down from generation to generation. They both portrayed a childhood in which it was totally normal to see their mother lie, cheat and steal (literally). And I think the whole thing where they seemed "allergic to the truth" is just a testiment to how hard it is to unlearn lessons learned in early childhood.

[@margaretkerr4591]

As a former dance teacher, no child should be on pointe until the age of at least 12 years old - to prevent major damage to growing feet. Great video 💗

[@Gail1Marie]

You're absolutely right. I went on pointe in third grade (age 10?) and the bone of the second smallest toe is actually curved. It doesn't affect me in any way, but you can immediately spot my feet as "dancer's feet."

[@margaretkerr4591]

@@Gail1Marie that's why, as teachers, we need to be aware of potential damage. I have square feet with a high instep! That's my natural shape at least 💗

[@meman6964]

Me too, age 9, bunion on right foot. Grateful it's not painful but it is ugly..

[@PaganVegas]

In 1983, my *High School* did a production of “Gypsy” - unthinkable in these moralistic times- and June Havoc was in town on tour. Somehow our director got her to come speak with us (kids!) - and I remember being blown away by how she was both incredibly glamorous and very very down to earth at the same time. In a word, elegant. She didn’t see our high school musical (thank god) but she gave us a full hour of storytelling and even a bit of dancing. It was marvelous.

[@MrCrowebobby]

My NYC dance-school rehearsal pianist, who had played in nightclubs since she was 15 and seen every great performer from 1910 on, always said she would pay the price of a Broadway show just to watch June Havoc walk across the stage.

[@emmarosehurt]

First of all, great story! Secondly, I’m here to shock you! My high school did this play in the year 2008! 😬😂

[@marypagones6073]

I do have to say that even the old videos of June are so incredibly beautiful and charismatic. I’ve never seen an on-stage June with this quality. It doesn’t surprise me that having been raised in show business from infancy and no formal education, all three women had a rather fluid relationship with the truth, especially the young June.

[@infonut]

My senior year the drama/English/bratty-sitter teacher announced that for the musical that year we would be putting on South Pacific. I cried out "why not Gypsy?" and he slapped his head and asked "Why didn't you remind me of that one earlier?" Guess what got put on the next year AFTER I graduated? I should have held myself back!

[@lyamainu]

All this video makes me conclude is that people are complicated and multifaceted, and their relationships are a tangled web of emotions, memories, and changing personalities. Something as cut throat as show business would only make the whole situation more extreme.

[@MrCrowebobby]

The original production of "Gypsy" ended with Merman hitting the last note of "for me" in "Rose's Turn" and the curtain coming down. They added the sugary mother/daughter reconciliation scene because out-of-towners just couldn't take that perfect, dramatic but downer ending.

[@MrCrowebobby]

@@steveb1164 None of the Gypsy story is "true." But the original ending was infinitely more powerful than the "tacked on" rambling, saccharine ending.

[@Kuxny]

@@MrCrowebobby I don't find it saccharine in the least. Not when it's played well. And it has been by Merman, Lansbury, Daly and Lupone. It ends with an uneasy truce. The writing is sharp and funny and it ends the evening in a satisfying way. It is, above all. an entertainment. It's the reason the show is revived again and again.

[@MrCrowebobby]

@@Kuxny If you prefer that ending, that's fine. I can't agree with you.

[@Mezzotenor]

For me, the success of the added-on ending really hinges on the chemistry of the lead actresses. Natalie Wood and Rosalind Russell got it right, creating one of the stronger scenes in the 1962 film adaptation. That said, Bette Midler's TV version 31 years later is overall the more polished production.

[@MrCrowebobby]

@@Mezzotenor Film and stage are vastly different mediums. The same ending wouldn't have worked for both.

[@rmarkread3750]

Thank you for this video. I've worked on several productions of "Gypsy," and marveled at how much the character of June is required to do. Of course, I know that we are dealing with a work of fiction "inspired" by true events, and there's no time to go into her character in the show. But just watching those young child actors "sing out, Baby" at the tops of their lungs, perform acrobatic dancing and literally hold the vaudeville act together through that long, brilliant first act, always makes me wish that there were just one moment when the character of June gets to relate what it's to bear all that responsibility from such a young age.

[@ds2465]

The most ironic thing in the whole story is that, due to the musical, Rose is probably the most famous of the three.

[@KristenK78]

I think seeing the movie musical on TV as a child was my first exposure to Bette Middler.

[@rockerred1000]

Yrah? Maybe because of the musical.

[@ericbrown1750]

Maybe today, but in her heyday, Gypsy Rose Lee was *very* well-known.

[@MrCrowebobby]

Gypsy Rose Lee was one of the best names in show business. How could anyone forget it once they heard it?!

[@dantedion9307]

I would love to see ur take on Fanny Brice and the musical Funny Girl

[@milliemouse6525]

Actually others have done it. Very interesting as well. Look them up. I'm sure you'll enjoy them!

[@maxm.grinnell139]

June was actually the second woman to be nominated for the Tony for Best Director after Joan Littlewood for The Hostage in 1961.

[@katemaloney4296]

I undetstand how June would be suspicious of Louise's account of life with their morher. However, June should have realized that she eloped and left home at 16, and she could not know of the pressure and anger and abuse Rose may have unleashed on Louise--the daughter she didnt want and considered inferior. To sum up how Louise felt about her mother; when Louise was dying of cancer and June came to visit. When asked how she was feeling Louise replied that she believed their mother had gotten the last laugh.

[@ashmeadowphoenix]

@@steveb1164 I mean June admits what her real birthday probably was and we know when she got married. 16 was more likely.

[@ashmeadowphoenix]

@@steveb1164June's recollections are irrelevant to the math of it all.

[@siegess]

Supposedly, on her deathbed, Rose promised to claw her way back from the grave, and drag Louise and June back down with her. i can't remember which book that may have been in.

[@feliciab2]

You also have to remember that June was the favoured child out of the twojj (and yes I'm basing this almost solely on the Gypsy musical) so it makes sense that her perspectives about that time, and her mother in particular, would differ from Louise's.

[@mainlyfine]

Thanks for your work on this. Before viewing I had heard of Gypsy Rose Lee and her mother though the musical.I knew June havoc was an old time actress but had no idea she was Gypsy's sister. What do I take away? Gypsy was a lot more like her mother than she would like others to think she was. Though June came across as more polished, I suspect all three women were a hard bitten lot.

[@elizabethmelillo2154]

I first read "Gypsy ' and 'Early Havoc' during the 1960s, and I have a continued fascination with both Gypsy and June. I greatly appreciated your intelligent, open literary treatment. No-one really knows the truth - they both created their own personae, and contradicted themselves one sentence to the next. I'm very glad your presentation was entertaining but impeccably honest - neither a rant nor rambling.

[@jackcovey1832]

Gypsy/Louise was quite good in a comic role in the Haley Mills comedy, THE TROUBLE WITH ANGELS, as the dance instructor in a girls' boarding school.

[@dancingnature]

I remember that she was hilarious!

[@meman6964]

Natalie Wood, actress in that role and as Gypsy

[@cannibalisticrequiem]

@@meman6964 No dumbass, it was the real Gypsy Rose Lee as the dance instructor in The Trouble With Angels. She's literally listed in the movie's opening and ending credits, as well as credited on IMDb. Why would they cast Natalie Wood as GRL, when the real GRL was STILL alive and well at the time, and then credit Natalie Wood as GRL instead of Natalie Wood? What sense does that make??

[@TheDramaDorks]

Timestamps 🎭💃🌹 : 1:37 - Intro 4:18 - Musical summary 12:03 - The Memoir that wreaked Havoc 17:54 - Rose Thompson Hovick 31:31 - June Havoc 45:28 - Gypsy Rose Lee 55:00 - Conclusion 57:05 - Credits 🌹🌹🌹

[@loganduncan9181]

First and foremost your work here is Brillant. I had the sensation as I read and watched that of a detective on the hunt, and your curiousity and determination to uncover the truths was so well done. You took my favorite Broadway musical and showed us beneath the beads and glam the bittersweet truth of the matter. So well done.

[@ljspivak9447]

I've always been most fascinated by June, who had a very interesting and accomplished career, and got the last word in. I thinknk it's her absence in the second act that intrigues me too. Laurents described both sisters as being equally loose with the truth, and very much alike. Even listening and looking at them this comes through. It might be nice to know all the facts, but the mystery may be what keeps them interesting nearly a century later.

[@MotherMagenta]

I just found your Chanel. I am loving it so much! Well done you!

[@MrCrowebobby]

Watching this again, there is only one Rose for me and that's Merman. It's amazing how June and Gypsy were both unsatisfied despite success and fame, but then I think of Bob Fosse and how despite having the most successful career a dancer could dream of, he was never satisfied because he wasn't Fred Astaire.

[@ruthm.6071]

Thank you for making this video. The complete, factual real of the Hovic women may never be known. But it looks like you have thoroughly researched the story from many sources. I appreciate that you have attempted to find as much truth as possible, and that you have treated these women with respect. I feel that I know so much more about this fascinating subject from your video than I have ever gotten from any other means.

[@kallen868]

I would love for some one to write a Broadway show of Junes book Early Havoc. Her marathon life would make a great musical.

[@sillygoose420]

there is one! marathon 33, it’s called 😊 june wrote it

[@Keith-j7h3v]

Very enjoyable video. I grew up in the 1960's back stage during these great productions. My Dad was the lighting director, and my Mother was the costume designer. I didn't know it at the time, but I met so many great people , some very famous, while my Dad sat me on a stool at his lighting board, and said be quiet, and don't touch anything. My stool was next to the big electrical panel with a million huge switches that looked like props from a Frankenstein production. I got to watch these shows from the wings, or if there were empty seats I could sit out with the audience with my sisters. I had no idea how lucky I was as a kid. I saw the production of so many shows, and it was cool to get to know the players and hang out at after party's. Great memories. Thank you

[@mckenna8663]

I've played in the pit orchestra of Gypsy more times than I can tell you. It's not a hard score to play, but it's one of my favorites. I'm a "wind player" which means I play all of the woodwind instruments. In the first half of the show I mostly play flute and clarinet. Once gypsy gets into burlesque, I rarely pick up my flute/piccolo. It's pretty much saxophone all the way to the end. I sort of think of my flute as Louise and her innocence. Once Gypsy (the saxophone) enters the picture, there's no turning back.

[@kallen868]

❤

[@louis-mariedesaintecroix9866]

I've just binge-watched all of your videos, your channel is a gem, keep on the good work!

[@louis-mariedesaintecroix9866]

Keep up*

[@mckenna8663]

​@@louis-mariedesaintecroix9866 ... just as an aside, you know you can edit your posts no matter how long its been up, right? The top, right-hand corner by your post has 3 dots. Click on that and hit edit. As a person with ADHD, there are a lot of times I tend to hit "post" BEFORE I proofread. So, the edit function and I are very good friends!

[@jeanmartin9614]

"Annie Get Your Gun", supposedly about Annie Oakley, is pure fiction. Phoebe Ann Moses, who would perform as Annie Oakley, came from a quiet family. Her husband, Frank Butler, never minded that she was the better marksman. They adored each other right from the start. They didn't have to be tricked into marrying each other.

[@janetkizer5956]

Oh, yes. Annie's story was changed, I truly believe, to fit a misogynistic narrative that was fighting truth and nail at the time to remain powerful. There were other plays and movies at the time that were trying to convince women to stay in their place. Annie Oakley was pretty much a feminist of her time. And her husband was perfectly happy to tell everyone that his wife was the better shot. And the writers got a hold of the story and turned it inside out. Deliberately.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

That was an astoundingly solid + deep exploration of family, the fickleness of talent, hunger for money/power/fame, unreliable narrators + self-mythologies, the elasticity + truthful details that can shelter in ambiguity, multi-generational survivors + resourceful indomitable women, the questions around self-authorship, & so much more. Excellent work; thank you.

[@kazza6078]

Every time a creator apologizes for a long video im so confused like the longer the better babayyy! Not a euphemism

[@BrendainPA]

I agree!

[@infonut]

Well done. Great presentation.

[@poetcomic1]

As an historian of old vaudeville wrote, you have no idea how talented, radiant and delightful Baby/Dainty June was. The June of the musical 'Gypsy' is cloying and second rate. I have concluded that the one glaring lie in the Mama Rose story is that she made and spent and stashed away a LOT of money she made off of June, who was sort of an original Shirley Temple.

[@mckenna8663]

Baby June was also the templet for Baby Jane in the cult horror/thriller Whatever Happened To Baby Jane?

[@Gail1Marie]

Any two-year-old on pointe would be something to see. I hate to think what her feet looked like at the end of her life, though.

[@shawnstone72]

I was lucky enough to be the assistant to the choreographer for the national tour of gypsy. Trying to teach baby June how to do a time steep was either going to be the death of me of baby June. With a happy heart I can say she learned how to do a time steep. 😂

[@kallen868]

😅

[@JimMac23]

Time step?

[@quenepacrossing4675]

I have never seen this musical of heard of their story before, but i love all your videos because they are so interesting. I think even without purposely lying their accounts would always be different from each others. differing perspectives are inevitable when it comes to an individual’s inner universe.

[@BrendainPA]

Thank goodness this video showed up in my suggestions. It is absolutely awesome! Its evident you did extensive research and the presentation of your material is superb! "Gypsy" is my favorite musical and you really did it justice - nice work - thank you! I've subscribed and look forward to more wonderful content. Take care and stay safe!

[@bullschmitt993]

Thank you for all of your hard work for this video, it was phenomenal and I loved every second!!!

[@kellicoffman8440]

Loved this one

[@rabbitfishtv]

I saw June Havoc as Mrs. Lovett in a touring production of “Sweeney Todd” in Toronto in around 1981. She couldn’t really sing it, but had presence.

[@JimMac23]

As a child in Vaudeville, Baby June had a great voice.

[@Keaton-Casablanca]

When the girls were young Louise was jealous of Baby June. After maturing June was jealous of Gypsy. It appears both women were successful and both women had trouble telling the truth. A counselor once told me, "Nothing is as good as it looks from the outside." I think those words might also apply to June and Gypsy.

[@columbushill4974]

Well done video. Quite enlightening, however it kind of leaves you with not knowing what to believe and what not to believe. I loved the movie version with Natalie Woods. Thanks.

[@SymphonyBrahms]

Natalie Wood.

[@MSK-jd5fi]

Did I get that right? June was upset that they said she was a bit older when she eloped (was it 14 in the play) instead of 12? Like that made it better? She was literally a child getting married to escape. I did want to compliment the makers of this. The archival footage and photos were amazing, and the in depth take on the subject was phenomenal. I will seek out your other videos

[@tejaswoman]

What's odd is that some of the sources I've read indicate June was older than she claimed, so that would suggest that the age she was in the musical is _accurate_ .

[@cathe8282]

Family lives are rarely cut-and-dried roles so I understand June's inability to vilify her mother or even say her sister's memoir wasn't factual. I think growing up in the theatre teaches you the benefits of a good story, what sells and you can't help feeling that these things become instinctive for all of them. I truly believe her mother was ruthless and driven; she needed to be, and her dreams probably drove her to want success for her kids. Sometimes you love your mother and you don't know why. Things you understand as a kid make no sense as an adult (sometimes) and vice versa. Life is complicated and I feel you've hit that tone very well.

[@sandrablanchette2239]

This was so well written and put together. Thank you very much

[@MichielBLKorte]

Loved the reference with "Whatever happened to Baby June?"

[@SymphonyBrahms]

"Whatever Happened to Baby Jane".

[@jaded5957]

You're really witty and your editing is impressive.

[@EagleRockers]

Drama Dorks: I just had to tell you how brilliant I thought this was. I have so many thoughts to share with you, which I will in a while. Meantime, you did Gypsy and her fans proud! Thanks you from the top of my heart!

[@TheDramaDorks]

Thank you so much. I'm really glad you enjoyed. I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts :)!

[@EagleRockers]

@@TheDramaDorks I've been a major GRL fan ever since I saw the movie Gypsy in 1963 when I was 10 years old. I fantasized about meeting the real GRL and what I would say to her. In my 10 year old mind I pictured her looking like Natalie Wood. Two years later my dream came true when I went to a taping of a game show in Hollywood with my mother. GRL was the surprise guest! We waited at the stage door for her, and after every other star came through, my mom said we should go. "NO! Gypsy will be coming out any moment and I'm getting her autograph!" Finally, she came out and was very sweet to me while I got her to sign my autograph book. I still have it! I followed her career from then on and ate up everything she did. I was so, so sad when she passed. I was lucky enough to see Angela Lansbury when she toured in Gypsy and was even in a college production of the show. To me, it's the best Broadway musical ever and I've seen most of its revivals. I have always been interested in what it was really like back in those days of vaudeville and burlesque. Something told me Gypsy's version smoothed over what really happened. It was called a 'fable' for goodness sake! You have expertly broken down the myth and exposed the truth as well as any book I've read on Gypsy and that period. You really did your research and it shows. You have produced an excellent, definite work here. I'm looking forward to viewing all your videos. Keep up the outstanding work! Be well and take care; Cheers from La La Land!

[@adamjennings2452]

Thank you so much for making This video.

[@lindalaliberte8704]

I really enjoyed this video and appreciate all the research that must have been necessary to make it. Well done! 👍🙂

[@thunderstorm66]

Hey Drama Dorks, loved this and am impressed that you young men are interested in these stories enough to do all the work to find out about them! Gypsy's story has been a fascination of mine sine I first saw the movie as kid in the '70s, and I always love learning new things. But can you tell me what book has the pictures in it, of Gypsy, June and Rose? I have been wanting to find that edition but don't know which book it is.

[@fatjackjack5416]

June was a legend in her own right

[@thepanda1044]

Both her and Gypsy had several good Hollywood films, wrote books, and were very talented.

[@brianobrien7983]

That was a fascinating video. Thanks for the hard work and the mounds of research. At the end of it all I believe that Rose, June and Gypsy were both victims and victimizers. They did what they needed to do to survive and ultimately to thrive at a time when the odds were stacked against them. Their story is truly amazing.

[@florabernstein605]

2 adorable pre-pubescent young girls going cross-country to every theater there is with their mother, what could possibly go wrong? I'm sure the Hovac women's true story has some very dark passages indeed and it's a testament to each, of their strength and sheer bloody-mindedness, that they became as successful and put together as they were. also keeping mind this all happened between 1915 and 1930, before work safety, child welfare and woman's rights were even a glimmer in the air let alone actual laws of the land. At that time women and children were the property of their husbands and fathers and couldn't even vote. So any money they made was a closely held secret known only to Rose. Throw in WWI, the depression, men with unchecked entitlement, and sibling rivalry egged on by a doting stage mom for reaction, I'm sure there is much that happened that all 3 would rather not remember, who would? We wouldn't still be so fascinated 80 years later, if the story were happily ever after, now would we?

[@northstar9able]

... perfectly recognised & articulated ... thank you.. I'd say...

[@Beryllahawk]

Speaking as someone who grew up in an abusive home: it's entirely possible to lie to yourself so much about what really happened that it quite simply becomes true, for you. Even with evidence to the contrary. No one really wants to believe their mother would be unkind, I think. Certainly I went through phenomenal mental contortions to try and explain, justify, rationalize the things my mother and other family members did. And even when you do accept that what happened, happened, it is still very possible to love the person who hurt you so. While the contradictions are vexing, I think the feelings are entirely true - on all sides of the story.

[@kendn01]

I wish I could give this a second 'thumbs up' - after watching it a second time. But here's a related tale: A long time ago, a young handsome movie actor (can't remember his name!) was guesting on a late night talk show, probably Johnny Carson, and told a story that always stuck with me, and kept popping up in my brain as I watched this doc. The young actor drove a limo early in his career and apparently had been hired to take some old gentleman to the premiere of the stage musical Gypsy. Turns out this old guy had known the two sisters and their mother, and on the return trip in the limo, he mentioned to the young actor how Rose was nothing like what he saw on stage that night. He said she was truly crazy. Not just peculiar or eccentric, but really certifiable....

[@Tarabara]

I've been told that my grandfather once fixed a watch for Gyspy Rose Lee.

[@feralbluee]

Excellent bio of June, Gypsy, and Rose. your editing snd choices are brilliant. thank you so much. i had no idea June was so talented. (i do doubt she ran away at twelve. A 12 y.o. cannot possibly pass for 23. and how could she possibly have known how to take care of herself, in many ways!) i guess we’ll never know the true story, but it sounds as if the girls really didn’t know it either. they both sound confused. if they were abused in any way, especially psychologically, they might not really know reality from what they made up in their heads. but does it matter? they were both talented in their own ways. (i was surprised how good Natalie Wood was in the part - really amazing.) thanks again. i’m going to see what else you have researched the heck out of. :) LOL 🌹🌱

[@faithg7750]

This DEFINITELY sounds like the right answer to me. I think a lot of people put emphasis on both these ladies recollection of things that happened decades earlier. Memories are so easily tainted by emotion, especially with abuse. The brain really doesn’t want to remember abuse correctly memory is already faulty enough but add time, pain and maybe even a little repression and it’s very easy to sympathize with both their narratives. I see their discrepancies less as supposed dishonesty and more so as either a desperate attempt to recoup their own narrative out of fear or simple misremembering. I’m sure their recollection is at least an accurate reflection of how they feel.

[@feralbluee]

@@faithg7750 you’re right. just fyi - there is a woman in England who was horribly physically by her father, who developed quite a number of personalities when she very young to protect herself. she accused her father as an adult and won, which is pretty amazing! have a good day :)🌷🌱

[@donaldfinch1411]

A complicated story with complicated characters told in an unbiased and balanced way. Well done!

[@donaldfinch1411]

I'm also old enough to remember Gypsy from television guest spots and talk shows; I actually knew who she was long before I first heard GYPSY or knew who June Havoc was.

[@kallen868]

I wish Cher would do a film of Gypsy and Me. From the book by Gypsy's son Erik. Great book would make a great musical too.

[@staciebrakeman5607]

I love your channel! This video is amazing!

[@handelnonpuomiamusa4982]

This was super interesting and well written!

[@larrydirtybird]

Thank you so much for creating this video! In my opinion, Gypsy is one of the best musicals ever created, and definitely one of the best books of a musical ever, if not THE best. You could take all the songs out of it, and it would make a great straight play. I think this is the reason why decade after decade, it gets a major revival, and the revival is always a critical and audience success. After all, the musicals that beat it for the Tony, The Sound of Music and Fiorello, how often have they been revived, and with what success? Revivals of Gypsy will be done a hundred years from now, and they will still be just as effective and as moving because its family dynamics are timeless. And this is why, although I was very curious to find out the real story, it really doesn’t matter to me. If the creators had followed Gypsy Rose Lee’s memoir closely, the masterpiece that is the book of this musical would never have been written as it was. And it certainly wouldn’t have been as enduring a piece of theater as it is.

[@michelehirsch1421]

Am I the only one who is left believing that Rose was likely a dangerous sociopath? According to different people, Rose: - Killed her children’s kitten. - Lied so much about her children’s ages that they never knew how old they were. - Stole from her father. - Caused someone’s death by pushing them out of a window. - Made her daughter June dance on her toes at 2, a practice that is prohibited because it causes deformities and disabilities in developing children. - Made her child cry for a scene by telling her that her dog had died. - Threatened to send her daughter away (to a relative or orphanage) because the daughter was no longer a help to the act. - Was so awful as a mother that her daughter ran away at 12ish.

[@marycleary7810]

I'm with you. She was a scary person.

[@northstar9able]

lol... yup ... that was mamma!! :D

[@CanadianMonarchist]

I heard the person she pushed out the window tried to rape her.

[@fatjackjack5416]

Na I think she was just entitled. The original KAREN

[@AznRUs]

I really enjoyed this story and watched the whole thing. Your essay was well written and organized so the story was easy to follow. However, I wish there were fewer memes or no memes at all. It felt like a distraction. But overall really great work.

[@gregsheridan4978]

My parents bought the soundtrack on vinyl…. Ethel Merman … I still have it … not a scratch on it

[@djr6876]

Wow, how in depth and delightful!

[@walterulasinksi7031]

To get a deep er understanding of June Havoc, you should read or see a production of her Broadway play “Marathon 33”. It partially chronicles her life after she left her mother. Having designed a production of this in the most appropriate type of theater ( a theater in the round created within a former gymnasium with an upper running track), at New York’s American Academy of Dramatic Arts, when June came to see a performance, she remarked that it did bring her back to the time that she was writing about, even to that we had various people tossing pennies at the marathon dancers. Especially from the running track. And none of the performers would know where or when a coin might fall or hit them. That our production would truly depict the desperation if those who were forced to do such things just to survive. She also said that sh wrote it to expose the reality shock that happened to many Vaudeville performers when Vaudeville was dying and performers either had to change or perish. For a person of June’s talent, and youth, she was not centered on one aspect of performance and she felt her mother was not facing the fact of the changing world. . While Rose had taught her daughters the necessary drive to survive in the entertainment business, she was seemingly stuck in the groove where she had achieved the success of her daughter and would not let go of the past. June was a good dramatic actress. And was able to continue with her career but not as she might have initially imagined as a 12 year old. Louise, was finally able to connect with her comic ability and became respected despite being known initially as a stripper.to the extent, that she was welcomed to appear on television panel shows despite the censorship that was ever present. Both loved their mother Rose but like all growing children, would become frustrated with her denial of youth growing up. That is why June called Gypsy a fantasy.

[@Theresawinner]

I first saw Gypsy on tv in the early 1970"s no doubt on a weekend movie that used to play on many next works in place of the weekly daytime talk shows and soap operas during the work week. loved it I was a big musical fan and I loved the Natalie Wood /Rosalind Russell, The first time I saw Gypsy Rose Lee when she appeared in a small part in a Rosiland Russell/ Hayley Mills film 'The trouble with Angels' of course I did not make the connection until a few years later when I started paying attention to movie credits I think Gypsy Rose Lee was a fascinating woman and have always been interested in learning more about her. Thanks for posting this video enjoyed it very much.

[@theoperatripleaxel5417]

i just listen to patty lupones roses turn

[@tejaswoman]

Pausing at 43:51 to say that the other day I was reading a blog by a former entertainment writer with the last name of Major, and among other things, he gathers clippings from June and Louise's vaudeville days. They react in complimentary ways to Louise's stage bits, so apparently she did more than we thought. I don't know whether that blog entry predates this video or not, but I will see if you mention it in the remaining moments.

[@philzmusic8098]

Every family is a mystery, especially to its members. I don't think Mama Rose in the musical is a monster. Monstrous, yes, but in Rose's Turn you discover her own mother withheld love from her; you begin to feel compassion and understanding.

[@imateakettle]

Nonetheless, those were only her intentions. In the musical, we see multiple scenes where she disregards her children’s feeling, gaslights Louise, and guiltrips her. Not to mention, Louise even says something like, “I like my life because it’s finally mine I’m living.” at the end. This details the level of control Rose had on her children. You can even see that Rose wanted spotlight and was using her children to get it. She admits it herself. I always try to see things from different perspectives, but this is one that’s hard for me because of my own trauma.

[@thepanda1044]

​@@imateakettleRose is a very complicated character.

[@imateakettle]

@@thepanda1044 again, it’s hard for me to empathize with her because of my own experiences, so though I understand that she is layered and not all bad, my brain mostly considers the bad when looking at her character.

[@petersdotter1]

I watched with fascination. Thank you for giving a balanced view. I barely remember Gypsy's TV show, but until the movie with Roz Russell, was ignorant of the back story. Russell made Rose seem charming and sympathetic, not the mother from hell who ruined her family and her children's entire lives. We all invent the story of our own lives, so it's no mystery that everyone's account differs from the other's, and from their own at times.

[@SymphonyBrahms]

Roz Russell played "Jolly Rose", and it just didn't work.

[@folliesfanatic]

Many people say that "Gypsy" was the ultimate and most perfect musical comedy ever written. Perhaps so. But I do think that it's subtitle "A Musical Fable" says a great deal more of how the characters lives are portrayed in the show compared to their real life counterparts. It is a great musical entertainment of course, who could go wrong with Arthur Laurents, Jerome Robbins, Sondheim and Styne? But reality and musical theatre are distinctly different things in most cases. Perhaps "A Chorus Line" could be an exception. I love your detailed commentary on the Havoc family and what motivated each of them. I had no idea that money was such a driver in the mother's life as well as Louise. The musical makes Rose appear to be always dreaming of becoming headliners but doesn't show her thirst for financial gain as clearly. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree with Gypsy and money apparently. Thanks for weaving the three womens' life stories and motivations together in your film. Well done again.

[@MrCrowebobby]

It's amazing how June and Gypsy were both unsatisfied despite success and fame, but then I think of Bob Fosse and how despite having the most successful career a dancer could dream of, he was never satisfied because he wasn't Fred Astaire.

[@teijaflink2226]

I think they would all be very happy that people are still remembering and fascinated by them.

[@EllieC130]

This was such an interesting video. The point on June being remembered as Gypsy’s sister makes me think about every other person who has been recalled as “family member of BLANK”.

[@Melissa-tw2gp]

Any family beset by conflict is going to be seen differently by every member of said family. Some in denial, some exaggerating, some hardly remembering at all. It’s very human which is part of what makes Gypsy so compelling.

[@banrions]

Wonderful video all around.

[@elviswelling]

A lot of work went into this! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@1trschaefer78]

Thank you! This is beautiful. Lots of previously unseen footage.

[@elizabethslayton3534]

I think the 'saying the dog died to get little girl to cry' is a story from the set of 'Meet me in St. Louis' so Margaret O'Brien could cry for the song 'Have yourself a merry little Christmas'

[@stevencheatham5041]

I saw Margaret O’Brien in and interview with Robert Osborn, she said, the dog story was not true. She said, she heard it was Jackie Cocoon or Jackie Cooper who was told their dog died to get them to cry. Who ever it was, it is a good story about child abuse.

[@JimMac23]

It could be both. Or neither.

[@lynneh9744]

I think she was a strong survivor who had the knack of not taking herself too seriously and had her eye on grabbing a chance when it was presented. I think her sister was jealous of her success, as for years she had been brought up to be a star. In thier own ways, both the sisters were big successes. But sisters usually have rivalry. Mama did what she had to do, to be true to herself, and do the best she could do for her daughters and herself, at a time when women did not have a lot of options. She dared to dream big and was not afraid to be single minded to get what she wanted for herself and the girls.. Gypsy Rose Lee was the most like her mother I think. As for the son; he sounds like a spoilt brat. Maybe after her tough childhood, Gypsy was trying to install a monetary lesson and drill some backbone into him, by not buying him whatever he wanted. If he had to get a job to buy his college gear, maybe she hoped it would harden him up. I am sure as she aged, she had some bitterness stored up; when you start out poor, and claw your way to the top, you often find success brings with it a lot of hangers on looking for an easy ride, and memories of your struggle make you somewhat disillusioned with life, but mostly, I think she absolutely enjoyed getting a reaction and the resulting attention, and tbh, I think she was at genius at doing it. Love her wry sense of humour.

[@kendalson7100]

Agree. And out of the two sisters, Gypsy seems like the one I would most like to know/be friends with.

[@FrankCutugno]

An excellent video about a little examined piece of theater lore! It is probably a sign of the times in whch the books were written that the memoirs never mentioned sexual exploitation of the children! I also enjoyed the "addition" of the spiritual sequel "What Ever Happened to Baby Jane (June)"! 😎

[@helenm6543]

Very interesting. I grew up in Baltimore and knew of Gypsy from her performing there as well as from the movie. I also remember her being on various game shows. She was hilarious! I never knew much of anything about her sister June. I didn't know June also became an actress. Thanks.

[@Xesxs]

I read a story about Minsky's, and there was a dancer who inspired Gypsy. As a little girl I had a stage mother, and acted and sang as Gypsy Rose Lee for my family.

[@gentillydanny]

Well done video.

[@JohnnyGNV]

I am curious as to why, in 1980, June Havoc said that she and Louise Havoc "never appeared on the same stage together", but I mean, how can that be true when there are all these photographs that show them together as performers? Also, June laments that Louise was "the beautiful one" when early photos of Louise Havoc depict a fairly plain girl ~ I would really be curious as to what is fact and what is fiction - Did they not appear in Vaudeville together at one time?

[@JimMac23]

Yes, they appeared in vaudeville together for several years as children.

[@gregsheridan4978]

I was a very young boy … late 1950s early 1960s …. When I heard, learned about Gypsy Rose Lee…. When the movie was available on TV , we watched it as a family

[@jeannehardy5082]

As several have mentioned about the dangers of going on pointe before the age of 12, the fact that June was forced on pointe at 2 says a lot about the character of Mama Rose. Also, many years ago I saw an interview with June Havoc in her later years. She mentioned that both her mother and her sister had died early from cancer. She on the other hand lived into her 90's and attributed her longer life to the fact that she was basically a positive person, where as both her mother and sister were negative in their outlooks.

[@Kowawadaddy]

I have so much admiration for the amount of detail that you have managed to pack into this video. I have to admit that I have taken a long time to even watch the musical but I’m glad I did and that led me to Carolyn Quinn and her excellent book. The show is incredible but yourself and Carolyn opened the door to me seeing the individual personalities behind the characters that they portrayed in their daily lives. I don’t think knowing the whole truth matters anymore in fact it would probably be a disappointment if we did know it all. My personal opinion is that they were a group of strong women who managed to survive in an industry that could easily have swallowed them whole. How was Rose any different than a male in the industry I believe she sacrificed a lot to make ends meet I’m sorry but no man would have gone so far to keep her family together. The girls would have been used up and discarded by a man but Rose was a mother and I know she was flawed but she loved them. I find it hard when you hear Gypsy mentioned and the first thought in peoples minds is she was just a stripper. She may have been a stripper but she wasn’t just one she was unique and talented and she knew from her mother exactly how to work the system to get what she wanted. The fact that all three of them are so misrepresented and dismissed is just wrong when you consider all they accomplished in their lives it’s time that they were celebrated not just for the accomplishments of Gypsy but also in their own right. Thank you for giving them a balanced voice and helping right the wrongs they have had done to them.

[@TheDramaDorks]

Thank you. I’m so glad you enjoyed the research 🙏

[@dianecheney4141]

I read her sons biography of her. Yes gypsy is larger than life, but so was she. Oh my gosh in her 60’s I believe it was she took a role in a play called Annie Get Your Gun. She ran up and down from the stage to the back of the theater and all around. That’s pretty good

[@linneab8317]

I ❤ the movie adaptation of the G String Murders starring Barbara Stanwick. Gypsy was such a chameleon and such an enigma.

[@aubreytreves]

Yes, 'Lady of Burlesque', it's a wonderful movie and free to view on youtube.

[@HuntingViolets]

I believe The G-String Murders was ghost-written by Craig Rice.

[@JeffreyMarks]

@@HuntingViolets You're correct. It's how the rumor started that Craig wrote The G-String Murders. (Craig did not.) I wrote a bio of Craig Rice, and she was equally loose with the true in terms of her own history.

[@mjt9822]

That was wonderful. I don't know what I think about the sisters & their mother, honestly, but I know I would have liked them.

[@ashmeadowphoenix]

This video is so interesting for a number of reasons. I love the fact that as much as possible you examine these women through their own eyes and through third party eyes. But I guess I kept waiting for substantive inconsistencies and I don't think any were presented? Like you keep saying we will never know the truth, and while that's absolutely true, nothing about the musical, which I think you construed against the text re: June, seem unreasonably inconsistent with what June or Gypsy had factually happen. For instance: "June didn't like how she was portrayed" but what your June quotes actually say is that she didn't like that she wasn't really portrayed at all (she was "nothing") and that seems fairly consistent with Laurents' account that she held out until he threatened to effectively write her out completely and her seemingly long-lived upset about how her sister overshadowed her. You never mention anything that June suggests was actually wrong with her portrayal, and everyone who could say something seem to agree that June was the star and June ran away to get married because she was tired of doing the same old thing, and that was not a conversation her mother would tolerate....which is what the musical says. You also say the musical makes June out to be a spoiled archetype, but what in the musical supports that (I would argue the movie goes out of its way to deconstruct that spoiled favorite archetype with "If Momma Was Married" scene, where both June and Louise see Rose as an obstacle to June's success and Rose's contentment and both seem to be trying to support each other)? That's just one example, but I think this video elides the conflict over interpretation with conflict over facts, which weakens the video's idea that the conflict was created by disparate narratives. The narratives aren't inconsistent. There doesn't seem to be much conflict over the facts, just over how those alleged facts have affected the parties' reputation. Both June and Gypsy talk about how they want their mother viewed, but they are not in conflict with what they said their mother did, they just think people shouldn't think badly of her for it, which...is not in their control. Which is why "who writes a memoir after a person is dead" which implies a nefarious or disingenuous or untruthful intent seems beneath the information gathered. It seems like an equally reasonable interpretation that Gypsy knew the truth would hurt her mother's feelings, as it would be to say that Gypsy could lie better if one witness is dead. There's nothing very twisted here, imo, besides two people who both loved their mother better from a distance.

[@greyscaleanon7551]

I mean, I remember looking up the wikipedia pages about the real-life Mama Rose a couple years ago and talking to my mom about how Gypsy apparently bought a property for her to live her life and run a business and we both agreed that it seemed like Gypsy was paying her to stay away and keep too distracted to interfere in her life.

[@TheSuzberry]

Enjoyed this tremendously. About the ‘truth’ about the people and personalities involved: think Rashomon, each person is the star of their own life. I will say: why would young Preminger expect his mother to support him and not his rich, famous father - or even himself.

[@stevielove4778]

The most likely explanation for June’s many lies, fading-facts, changing opinions and histories…? Honestly, it’s probably good old-fashioned NPD. (In my OPINION!) :: Every account of Rose (from Louise AND june, AND the Gypsy musical, AND the Rose bio’s…) describes Rose as being ( I think is safe to assume) A narcissist. Both children (like everyone around her) would CERTAINLY be victims of their mother’s personality disorder, and (at least in early life), June seems to have been the “GOLDEN CHILD”, and Louise the “SCAPE GOAT” (two EXTREMELY common archetypes of the kind of relationships narcissists build with their children). A *golden Child* RARELY makes it out of childhood with a healthy personality, and usually (unless they luck into some intervention by way of integral care from an empathic adult, which June does not seem to have had)- they usually become narcissists themselves, having spent their developing years learning to value and be valued for only narcissistic things - and shutting down their internal emotions, leading to unhealthy perceptions of other people and of themselves. This would explain the changes in story (narcissists lie and change face on a dime to best suit their needs in the moment), and her rewriting history. In my opinion, it’s probably most-likely that all three of these women were highly narcissistic; but I’d put BIG MONEY on Rose being a narcissist, and I’d bet just a littttle less $ that June probably was as well, at least.

[@Shahrdad]

There is a video on KZbin called "The private life of Ethel Merman." In there, Tony Cointreau recalls going to see Gypsy with Little Ethel (Merman's daughter), who was her friend and classmate. He was driven home by Billy Rose, who told him, "I knew the real Rose. She was truly a psychotic." And in 2003, June told Alex Witchel of NYC, "“My sister was beautiful and clever--and ruthless. My mother was endearing and adorable--and lethal. They were the same person. I was the fool of the family. The one who thought I really was loved for me, for myself.”

[@Shahrdad]

@@steveb1164 She was much more successful as an actress on film and stage than Gypsy, but Gypsy had the notoriety of having been a stripper. They both had interesting lives.

[@JimMac23]

@@Shahrdad I love the line from the film, "Somethin' wrong with bein' a stripper!?"

[@indiramohabeer3667]

Phenomenal video

[@ACinemafanatic]

I wish Angela Lansbury got more credit as Rose her roses turn is more heartbreaking and raw where she singed and acted the mental breakdown

[@kallen868]

Passed on to Tyne Daly.❤

[@JimMac23]

I saw Lansbury in the role. She was brilliant. A magnificent performance.

[@frederickcombs8661]

Three women live a life together and the story gets twisted. BIG SURPRISE.

[@amylou22snowhite]

I have multiple books on Gypsy waiting for summer, when I have downtime!

[@amylou22snowhite]

Coming back to say YOU INSPIRED ME! I pulled American Rose and I’m already 112 pages in. I LOVE the format, telling the story from the beginning, and the end. After a year of teaching my kids, I earned fun reading, so this summer, I’m finally cracking all “my” books I’ve hoarded this year. Hamilton characters and Gypsy Rose, lol.

[@TheDramaDorks]

@@amylou22snowhite Thank you :)! I'm glad you liked the video. I hope you enjoy your fun-reading. There's definitely a lot of entertaining material when it comes to the Hovick's lives and the drama/successes that followed them. Entertainers til the very end :)!

[@amylou22snowhite]

@@TheDramaDorks back to say that I LOVED American Rose. I could not put it down. The writer does such a great job of pacing a timelines. I’m almost half way through the Gypsy memoir now. Which June did you read and like, since you started me on this, dangit. Pssss. Thank you. ❤️🥰

[@marymunro1142]

Another great behind the scenes, or between the pages of a beloved Broadway show. Do people really take literally what is brought to life on a stage of musical theater? I should hope not, yet we here in the colonies have donald trump to belie that theory. His television show portraying him as a successful businessman propelled him to the White House. Loved your analysis. I was surprised to learn that Baby June went on to become a movie star. And her elevating Rose to the epitome of motherhood is to be expected. That happens often with abused children. Great show! Thank you.