The Two Words In A Song Of Ice And Fire That Told Me Daenerys Targaryen Was A Villain

[@AHEM1313]

8:19 This point is later confirmed in a Dance with Dragons: when Cleon the Butcher King takes over Astapor, he enslaves the surviving freeborn, even gelding the boys in an attempt to train new Unsullied. It's safe to say that the under-twelves of Astapor got a pretty raw deal, as well.

[@Paxility]

For me it was definitely the scene where she burned Mirri. Kal Drogo was such a clearly villainous character who was no better than any slaver. Mirris reasoning for killing Drogo or even not really helping him made complete sense to me. And Dany burned her alive. So long as Dany saw drogo as a sweet and good man, and saw Mirria behaviour as a betrayal and not self defence I couldn't root for her.

[@peezyorpj]

And that’s what made the early seasons so good. Many of these characters do terrible things and yet you can’t help but to love them. This is a common theme in ASOIAF. Even people with good intentions do monstrous things. With Brynden Rivers being a perfect example.

[@abdirahmanmohamed2478]

Mirri also killed her child and gave her a forced hysterectomy. She’s not exactly innocent. And before someone tells me Rhaego would be The Stallion who mounts the World, in ASOIAF, prophecy is a fickle creature and Mirri trying to stop it by killing Rhaego, inadvertently created the Stallion, in Drogon.

[@chingizzhylkybayev8575]

Mirri didn't really kill Drogo though. He died after disregarding every medical advise she gave and doing the opposite. Drogo killed himself.

[@chingizzhylkybayev8575]

@@abdirahmanmohamed2478 how do we know that? In all likelihood she just had a miscarriage which had adverse effect on her uterus.

[@Paxility]

@@abdirahmanmohamed2478 still. Murder and the murder of children are both things Drogo was not above himself. He was a proud murderer, rapist and slave owner. If Danny really fought for freedom and not power she wouldn't idolise him as much. I think Mirri is completely innocent. They always disobey her advice. Why should she be sad if it turned out bad for them? Even at the worst interpretation of Mirris actions, she beat Drogo on level ground. She did not betray Danny. She owed her nothing. But Danny burned her for power.

[@thekittenthatwantschicken8018]

Dany was doing shady and cruel shit from book 1/season 1. Georgie and the showrunners simply were trying to trick the normies into thinking she was a paragon of goodness. Just like when normies thought ned was gonna be the hero of the story. As a teenager reading the first book I knew right away ned was fucked cause he refused to play ball. Dannys arch in a nutshell is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[@Marlboro-lights1]

As with rhynera most people don’t realize who she really is.

[@Laramaria2]

The show tried so hard to paint Daenerys as a hero that they ruined the twist. A good, well written story leading to her becoming the villain would be great. The show actually does a lot of "cleaning " characters' actions, making their choices later down the road weird and nonsensical 💁🏻‍♀️

[@lyamainu]

Yes!!! Tyrion killing Shae is another good example. They d done such a good job making him a decent man, making him genuinely love her, that killing her seemed totally insane

[@thecensoredmuscle563]

​@lyamainu I get him killing her, she said horrible stuff about him to get him killed, then he found her in his dad's bed.

[@ayanna6327]

Seeing the layers to Daenerys's story makes her even more interesting as a character. If she does turn out to be one of the major big-bads in "The Winds of Winter" and "A Dream of Spring", she would be an almost revolutionary character, because I cannot think of a time a writer successfully wrote such a compelling villain with their true nature bubbling beneath the surface so plainly, but the POV trap being so potent that it almost sneaks up on you. Also, you're point about Daenerys not seeing children over 12 as adults because she sees herself as an adult due to all of the horrific stuff that has happened to her is a very astute observation. It's almost sad because Daenerys probably views her SA at the hands of Drogo as the "loss" of her innocence and where she ceased to be a child.

[@arawn1061]

Man Drogo was a strait up Villain. Funny how he generally isnt portrayed as such later i danys pow in book 1

[@sebastianmunozochoa1485]

Frank Herbert did it with Paul Atreides first.

[@_Seph_]

The thing is, she's the ONLY person EVER in the books, who is mentioned to protect kids from being killed. Noone else carred about kids no matter age. She at least acknowledges, that little kids are innocent and should be spared. You make it into an evil thing. But it's actually a GOOD thing. Noone else protected kids during wars. They were killed, raped or enslaved (or combinations), but she at least made sure none of these options will happen to little kids. Also where did we ever hear about some 13-17 years old kids being murdered? If it happened, the ex-slavers WOULD ABSOLUTELLY talk about it all the time, how she's a child-murderer. But we don't hear about it. Tyrion, Quentyn, Baristan, NOONE hears anything about that. So how big chance is that it actually happened and in a large scale? Yes, maybe few kids died. But it could have been few hundreds. Daenerys has many flaws and did many bad choices, but this to me was one of the good things she did. And it's really stupid to judge her for protecting only some ppl, when others don't protect anyone at all.

[@peezyorpj]

That’s why I love the books. It shows how in that world, even people with good intentions do monstrous things. It’s really a common theme in ASOIAF; Many people are morally gray due to circumstances, their upbringing, or their culture.

[@cerdic6586]

I think one of the story's points is that there is no such thing as a clear-cut 'hero' or 'villain'. There is only power and perception.

[@peezyorpj]

@@cerdic6586 YES

[@lyamainu]

For me, it happened as soon as she fully embraced the Dothraki lifestyle of pillaging and raiding. I understand why she did - she was a child, and that was the world she lived in - but saving a few women from being raped (more) doesn’t excuse the whole-sale slaughter of people her husband was performing in her name, to get the riches necessary to take back HER throne. But I didn’t start to really hate her until she stylized herself as a liberator and breaker of chains… who burned anyone who refused to submit. A slave can choose to disobey their master - they’ll be punished, even die, but they still can choose, right? So how is that any different than the choice she presents? Her conversation with Jon summed up everything. “I hope you won’t hold me accountable for my father’s actions” being said in nearly the same breath as “you owe me your fealty because your ancestor made an oath three hundred years ago.” It’s one or the other, lady. Either we are each responsible for our own actions, or we are beholden to the decisions our ancestors made. Either you believe people should be free to choose whatever they wish, or the person with the biggest whip… Or dragon… gets to call the shots.

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@mschell8022 that guy committed a crime in the nights watch which in real life would be equivalent to escaping prison. Now whilst I'm not advocating prison escapees be executed, keep in mind the characters we are talking about live in a medieval society. This is particularly important because men of the nights watch swear to become members of the nights watch in front of the gods, so if you break that vow you're breaking your vow to the gods which is basically the worst thing you can do in this society. The dothraki on the other hand, kill people just for fun. They find a wedding without at least 3 deaths to be dull. The people in lhazar never committed any crime against the dothraki but drogo killed them anyway. To compare the execution of a criminal to the rape and murder of a people for fun is simply lunacy.

[@whynotcaptaincrunch]

@@mschell8022 I think one of the major themes of the books is that underneath the trappings of honor and the pageantry of court, the feudal system in Westeros is based on the constant underlying threat of violence. So in that sense, the Dothraki simply do openly what the lords of Westeros hide. But in another sense, the actual harm being done is way different. In Westerosi society, armed men going around murdering people, raping women, and enslaving children only occurs during major wars, which are the exception. In Dothraki society, that happens all the time, it's their default mode of life. Ned executing a prisoner for forsaking his vows is a violent act that upholds an unfair system, but it's completely incomparable to the atrocities the Dothraki commit regularly.

[@rjkzbkfy9665]

In the same chapter were she "embraces Dothraki" culture she immediately rejects it and tries to save as many innocents as she can which infuriates other dothraki. You people are just searching something that isn't there and inhale so much copium to convince yourself she will become worse than Tywin or Ramsay in a span of 2 books

[@jillianmurphy2604]

*Spoilers* For me it was at the end when she first rode Drogon in ADWD. Over 200 people, the majority of them innocent, were burned to death but she barely gives them a thought and later on reflecting on the moment she thinks to herself it was all worth it.

[@anarchakatty5438]

​@@mschell8022 but her reflection does nothing to better her actions and she has about as much hostile paranoia as she does reflection so idk if that really matters

[@-AwaleAbdi-]

I understand Daenerys' character. George once talked about how his mother's side of the family used to be very wealthy and owned a whole dock in his hometown until they fell to ruin. His mother would still go on to raise him up on stories about her family's once lost splendor. This sort of inspired George's fixation with lost glory what with all the Great Houses of Westeros like the Mudds, Hoares, Gardeners and in a sense even the Targaryens who are now essentially nothing. He gets quite poetic and melancholy with some of those examples of extinguished houses. I grew up in a similar situation myself. My grandfather was one of the wealthiest men from my family's hometown. To this day his name garners respect in our community and my father opened the first or one of the first telecom companies in our country and even had a Washington Post article or two written about him in the 90s describing him as the wealthiest man in our city and a prime example of go-getter African entrepreneurs. All of that fell to ruin by the time I turned 18. Not all gone like with George's family but a fraction of what it once was. For a short time as a boy I did feel bitter, angry, _cheated_ and admittedly *entitled.* I remembered a time when my family's estate had like 30 armed guards, several cars, a driver, a chef, a housekeeper, a guest house and a main house under construction. I felt like a little prince whose kingdom was just waiting for him and yet here I was living a normal middle class life and being told it was all mostly gone, that I had to make my own way and not much of it was likely to ever come back without a lot of luck and hardwork. Some people never wake up from that state of bitterness, anger and entitlement. They either collapse into vices never to be seen again or become voraciously lustful, to an almost psychopathic extent, toward regaining what they feel was "stolen" from them and, yes, they may lie to themselves about wanting to do so for honorable, philanthropic-like reasons the way Dany essentially does but that's what truly drives them; a deep lust for what is lost, a deep lust for wealth lost and, in her case, power lost. She's not trying to break the wheel. She just wants her turn on it back and I'm sure she believes she's some sort of messiah come to save everyone especially after the dragons hatched but that's besides the point and she will do anything to be back where her father once was.

[@krislanc1239]

I really enjoyed your comment, you seem very intelligent and eloquent. You will do well in life like your grandfather.

[@-AwaleAbdi-]

@@krislanc1239 Thank you, that's very kind of you. Appreciate it! 😁

[@t4rg4ryen]

Oh, this is so interesting. This kind of human behaviour is something I'm very used to as well. Not only by my country but as well from my family(more our elders). We as a country were known to 'conquer by the sea' heroes filled with a want for adventure with noble heat (delusion) and those grand days, unfortunately, are past us, but it is something to be proud of. Remind you that we were European colonists and some people recall those days as being the peak of our prime. And my family as well as yours was known to be the richest and some rumours of it also being from nobility but I digress, well, my grandfather and his younger brother can't let this story go, their father was the one that let this fortune 'go' (gambling addiction, the fool) well now they turn to the younger generation of our family to hopefully regain what they 'lost', focusing in what we study(we all go to university) and our future partners(money and what family they are from). And I agree 100% with your analysis on Daenerys. Wow, I rambled a lot, apologies, but this matter is really interesting to me. Have a great day!

[@angelika9396]

Thank you for this comment, it was quite helpful and enlightening (to understand certain characters).

[@-AwaleAbdi-]

@@t4rg4ryen Hope you restore your family's fortunes but I also hope you remember to always just try and lead a happy life, treat others well and don't get too caught up with what anyone else wants for you while, so long as they've never been abusive toward you, remaining respectful toward your elders who raised you.

[@WillowGardener]

I have a hard time seeing Dany as either a hero or a villain because I feel like she's such a complex character in the books. I really didn't like Emilia Clarke's portrayal of her because I feel like it's so one-dimensional girlboss. I was always horrified by her killing Mirri Maz Dur--Mirri absolutely did the right thing in killing Drogo, she likely saved many people from slavery and death. But Dany's rage at Mirri was also very understandable. She was a twelve-year old who just lost the man who'd been grooming her, who had become, as many groomers do, her entire world, her "sun and stars". I love Dany's character in the book because she's such a mess of contradictions. She is extremely cunning, but she is unwise. She abhors slavery, yet she idolizes Drogo, who is a slaver. She wants to govern well and be a mother to her people, but she is really much more skilled as a conqueror than she is as an administrator. I like the little detail in Dance with Dragons that she is completely fooled by Brown Ben Plumm, while Tyrion sees through his facade immediately. I feel like Dany has really good intentions, but she is fighting against her ancestry and her past. She wants to free the slaves, but her ancestors gained their power as slavers. She wants to disrupt tyranny, but she feels that she is entitled to the iron throne. She's been fed all this toxicity and trauma her entire life, abused by her brother, sold to Drogo, left to die in the Red Waste. She's saddled with the weight of prophecy by Quaithe, told that she will be betrayed three times, and lives with paranoia. All the people she trusts and looks to as teachers or father figures betray and use her for their own ends. I hate how Jorah is idolized in the show. Dany idolizes him because she's been groomed. He's a fucking creep who likes little blonde twelve year olds but is perfectly happy to sell her out for his own benefit, just as he was willing to literally sell people into slavery just because he wanted to keep his fancy rich wife. Like I think Barristan is probably the first and only person in her entire life who genuinely loves her and tries to protect her, although this of course has its own selfish roots, as Barristan is sort of using her to compensate for his own feelings of guilt and inadequacy around failing to protect Ashara and Rhaegar, for standing silent while Aerys committed atrocities, for bending the knee to Robert and then failing to protect Robert. I think that she is honestly trying to do the best she can in this incredibly fucked up world, but has been given absolutely zero tools to do so. And so I can't help but empathize with her.

[@indiciaobscure]

I agree with most of your points. I don't see her as doomed to villainy (as she is written, it's pretty clear from the show that she will go that way in some capacity.) but her black and white thinking with herself as the final arbitrator and her use of extreme violence are very disturbing. The Mirri Maz Dur thing is very interesting to me as well. I think Mirri was absolutely correct to do what she did, but Daenerys is also justified in wanting revenge because it was a personal attack against her (not just Drogo, but the unborn child). Her continued love for Drogo is deeply disturbing, especially in light of her quest to end slavery.

[@eric2500]

She is motherless, something she shares with so many of the characters. It seems to affect the female characters particularly badly. It is complicated to be female in this world, and if you lose your role model too young, you have trouble.

[@traumer9622]

Well said! What I especially love in the books is how she is very aware of her violent tendencies, and at times even her contradictory behaviour. How she struggles with her own nature that teils her both to nurture (and makes her go out into a crown of sick people, feeding them, washing them) and to destroy (crucifying the alleged masters)

[@Vmac1394]

Dany is a character who has incredibly lofty and good intentions, but her one and only solution to make those intentions reality is FIRE AND BLOOD. It's trying to fight fire with fire, pun not intended. It's really stupid and guaranteed that the regime she established in Astapor would end up ruled by a murderous despot like Cleon and that Yunkai would seek out revenge against her the second they could. Dany creates a cycle of hatred and violence through her childish and blunt attempts to right the world. The idea that cycles of vengeance and violence are pointless is one of the most central messages to the series.

[@juliansaasumuoyana8670]

​@@indiciaobscureExacto, nunca terminé de entender por que siempre porque aun ama a Drogo. En la temporada 7 dice con resentimiento que fue vendida y violada, vendida por su hermano por eso le dice a Jonh que su hermano era mala persona pero a pesar que Drogo fue quien la violó y es un esclavista aun lo considera un buen hombre,el sol de sus estrelas WTF Danerys sufre de síndrome de Estocolmo 😂😂😂😂

[@soup8900]

In the books it's definitely there, the signs in her black in white thinking, in the way she was raised by her brother who was always suspicious and wrathful, she had all the perfect ingredients to be evil and cruel, and in the books it's juxtaposed with her being a child basically, a pretty girl with a birthright and dragons, a fairy tale type story that if you can blind yourself just enough to see beyond the mass murder orders and who she's actually killing, you only see how she's freeing slaves. The show really does dim the fact she leans into cruelty sometimes, not just to the people who the audience believes deserves it. Idk if that made sense I just kinda rambled after finishing the video but yeah, Daenerys was always going to be the last villain for westeros imo, but the show handled it very poorly, where as in the books her arc is still going strong, slow and steady haha

[@lspthrattan]

I don't understand why people didn't see her as a villain in the making early on. The signs were there, you just had to see past her facade of "too cute to be bad".

[@sECUREij]

Zero to ten in the span of a few episodes. Yes there were moments of madness that showed where they were going. But those moments didnt justify her going full mad queen.

[@Aydan2108]

What signs?, give me the signs?

[@gameheaded]

She was quite okay with murder, so long as it benefits her advancement towards the throne.

[@abudidita]

Rigth? I knew she'll be mad the first time I see the series. It was the scene were a servant tells her that the water was too hot and Daenerys still enters the bathtub looking away with blank face. And when read the books notice little hints, like repeating things that Viserys tells her

[@cerdic6586]

Because people ultimately see what they want to see. Anti-heroes and sympathetic villains have always swayed the imaginations of people. Look at how Blackbeard and Dick Turpin are romanticised long after their deaths.

[@ohhhmindy4380]

When you also consider the reaction of the Starks to the killing of Mycah, a 13 year old boy, you can further see the juxtapositioning of Dany to our established “good guys” aka the Starks. The Hound is forever condemned by them for this. The Lannisters are openly established as the enemies to the Starks in this moment (as well as the killing of Lady). Mycah is never forgotten by Arya, but Dany never again considers the children of Astapor that she had killed.

[@LadyDreamfyre]

The main moment that made me realise that she isn't better than the slavers nor a hero is the fact that she wanted to buy the Unsullied at first. She simply didn't have enough gold, and that's why she tricked the slave masters using Drogon. Daenerys isn't against slavery when it works in her favour (see how she rules Meereen in the future books).

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah and that is unsurprisingly another element of the books that was omitted to once again hide that Dany might be villainous. The show very much presents Dany as someone who hates slavery as something fundamentally offensive to humanity but the books present it far more pragmatically, i.e. she wants to buy them but can't afford them, doesn't want them to be able to be sold again and potentially used against her, and recognizes that using a slave army to invade a country where slavery is illegal is a bad look.

[@weslleyfj]

There's the black and white character analysis Martin usually criticize. She was literally a teenager who originally came from a position of privilege and was being told by her advisers that buying a slave army would be how she'd come back home. It's a lot more nuanced than "look at the Mad Queen who wanted to buy slaves". Same for Meereen, where she spent the entire time conflicted about bringing back slavery, only doing it because she felt cornered. I don't want to look like those crazy 'Dany's never been wrong' kind of fans, but she wasn't simply a villain. She was one of the conflicted characters the books are kind of filled with.

[@rehaan6428]

@@HillsAliveYT Can you really not tell that she was just acting in front of the masters or are you just dense? Immediately after she goes back to the ship, she slaps Jorah for bringing her here and tells him that she wished she could leave this place but has to come up with some way to pay for eight thousand soldiers, eight thousand innocent babes, and eight thousand strangles dogs. Keep in mind this conversation was before she told the good masters that she wished to buy them in the first place. All throughout this book, it's kept secret what exactly Dany was planning to do, and it was kept secret deliberately to build tension. Also keep in mind that she had no desire to come to Astapor in the first place, but was convinced by Jorah to do so.

[@user-sd1cy1qt5p]

This is simply just not true and completely disregards entire parts of her character at this moment, y’all just want her to be a villain when she isn’t

[@ratgirl34]

@@weslleyfj I agree that a lot of the discussions on Dany being hero or villains boil down to heated black and white discussions. But the more I think about how and why Dany does things…. While she’s never completely wrong in her actions, I do feel like we’re getting a front row seat of the slow decent slide into villain. Do I think that’s a definite thing? No, there’s plenty of time in the story for someone to reel her in. If it happens at all I expect to be questioning it three chapters past it happening. Mostly because of the nuance of he character and the situations she’s dealing with.

[@ukotoa1639]

For me the fact that she’s a villain isn’t the problem it’s the fact that there was no build up just “wop time to betray my character and motives because lol” they could have saved it they really could have if only after she burns king’s landing she’s horrified by what’s she’s done and she now sees why the people of Westeros hated the Targaryen’s by the time of her father

[@gingerbell07]

Character development ceased after season four.

[@jostockton.]

Of course there was. HA even made videos on this. You can't blame the writers because none of you thought a woman who murdered her enslaved rape victim in s1 or who threatened to burn everyone alive in s2 was a bad person. That's on you.

[@gingerbell07]

@@jostockton. I’m not even talking about Daenerys exclusively. All of the character development ended in season four, while the book’s characters continue to evolve throughout the novels that D&D didn’t bother adapting.

[@sibinsamthomas4719]

It always made sense for her to be a villain, You can see her getting a high when Khal drogo says he would r*pe other women. She was a layered character, she had cruelty in her blood. But the writers tried to play it off in one episode, and tried to cover it up by making her a "Hitler" in one episode. She kept repeating, I don't want to be queen of the ashes, again and again. But in the end, she was like "Welp, Cersei killed Missandei, now I am angry. Time to burn kings landing folk who had absolutely nothing to do with it."

[@gingerbell07]

One of my least favorite things about internet discussion is that someone is always giving a rebuttal to a point I wasn’t trying to make. My biggest complaint with lack of character development has most to do with Tyrion, who I guess the writers just wanted to keep likable. I think Dinklage would have done great work with the dark Tyrion we are given in the book series and Daenerys’ darker turn would have made more sense with Tyrion fueling her darker impulses. Some of Sophie Turner’s best work was from the later seasons, but that does not make Sansa’s transformation from frightened hostage to empowered queen make any more sense. Jon Snow returned from the dead pretty much in tact and whole when precedent states that resurrection is meant to change you, and season eight Jon Snow pretty much had two lines repeated often. The only character to develop after season four was Theon and the fact that they replaced the steward’s daughter he was meant to save with Sansa gave his arc less meaning, since it was largely about how he dehumanized those he saw as beneath him, such as the ship captain’s daughter or the miller’s boys he killed. I mean, I could go on and on with this and still not touch on Daenerys at all so please stop telling me she’s the reason I don’t like season eight.

[@misskate3815]

😢😢😢😢 like I said to someone on tumblr, Danaerys is a cautionary tale about what happens when you give an abused, traumatized child blood magic instead of therapy and a safe foster home. I sympathize with her, I hate her abusers, but she’s been a bad guy since book one, and the only way to go back is to do some serious healing and rebuilding. She’s not going to do that. She’s just going to keep going. And it’s so sad and infuriation bc she’s still a KID. I kind of hate her, but I’m so sad about her path.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yes totally agreed, I mean I think Dany is villainous but I also think that the expectation that a horrifically traumatized child who is abruptly given a massive amount of power would be a hero is just completely absurd, and as we can see with a lot of the Stark children, coping with trauma through superpowers doesn't work out well, it's just exponentially magnified in Essos because Dany can affect so many more people with the power that she has.

[@renaissancewoman3770]

@@mschell8022 she's like 12/13, it would be weird if they weren't kinda.

[@AnarchoCatBoyEthan]

the sentence (fragment) “give an abused, traumatized child blood magic” is so incredible lol

[@thequeenb5803]

What? How has she been “bad” since book 1? Can you give be examples and explanations to prove your belief plz??

[@misskate3815]

@@thequeenb5803 so, I graduated from high school and never went to college, so I’m not producing essays on demand.

[@dessu8967]

In season 5 of GOT, Dany says all the Westerosi houses are just "spokes on a wheel" each one taking its turn, and that she is going to break the wheel. That line always bothered me, because her claim to the Iron Throne was always exactly the same as everyone else. It was her blood that gave her the birthright, and she says as much. I feel she's always given off a very entitled vibe, even as she criticizes those other houses.

[@vivannet231]

I hated that like too but I was more bothered of how the writers never told us what exactly daenerys was going to do to “break the wheel” like what were her plans other than “bend the knee or die”

[@cerdic6586]

She was young and idealistic. She clearly never intended to abolish feudalism. After all, that would render redundant her divine role as the mother and saviour of the people.

[@lhall8545]

Great job! I never watched the show, only read the books. The first time I believed Dany wasn’t the hero was the sacking of the village of the Lhazareen. All around her men are being murdered, women raped and kids being chained to sell them to brothels all for Dany to get the Iron Throne. And all she says to herself is “this is the price…” and feels sad but doesn’t change her mind. All this suffering around her of these innocent people caused directly by her and for her benefit and that’s all she says. The only response of a basically non psychotic human is “ if this is the price then I don’t want it.” Internally this the first time Dany tries to shield her guilt by carrying out what on the surface looks like a benevolent act that really isn’t. By making some of the women her personal slaves and telling them and herself that she “saved them”.

[@voluntaryismistheanswer]

I found her so repulsive I wanted to skip her chapters entirely. It took HoD to make me even interested in these Targaryen invaders.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah that's a big turning point for her too. I tend to see Mirri as the turning point because that's her making an active choice completely on her own, but the fact that she sees unfathomable horror and immediately tells herself "this is the price of the Iron Throne" with the implication that this is somehow a worthwhile price to pay really made it obvious that her character could very easily go down a terrifying path.

[@lutilda]

Well summarized! I think somewhere GRRM mentioned that he wanted to show a realistic villain and how they became that way. I think people assumed at the time he meant Cersei or something but it was clearly always Dani.

[@maggiecramer8154]

It's interesting to me that she sees the children under 12 as innocent and worthy of being saved from harm when, at 13, she was married off to a man twice her age and was pregnant before she turned 14. At 14 she lost her husband, her child, and burned a woman alive for it. By 15 she was conquering and trying to rule cities, bringing fire and blood, taking lovers and marrying for a second time. I feel like she has a twisted sense of when childhood ends

[@erinharkiewicz7239]

It's not Dany that has a twisted sense of when childhood ends - it is we fans twisting the written character by applying presentism. In many pre-modern societies and throughout history - 13 WAS when a person stopped being seen as a child. (or maybe 14).

[@maggiecramer8154]

@erinharkiewicz7239 and yet, in westeros, (and also real life but that doesn't matter here) it is 15

[@Flugkaninchen]

In the times that inspired the novels, childhood ended early. Even in the 19th century in the real world boys as young as 12 were sent to war, for example as midshipmen or powder monkeys - depending on their status - in the Royal Navy.

[@theguywithpants]

I’m listening thru ASOS again and when that line came and she said “under 12” I remember snorting and asking myself “fuck the 13 year olds I guess lol” but I didn’t think too much about it. Great video! Additionally, in Westeros it seems 16 is considered adulthood as that is when Joffrey and Tommen would take rule, ending the regency. The more I think the more the 12 year cutoff makes less sense

[@kragary]

I think it had something to do with the training of Unsullied. Something happened in their training when they're 12, maybe that was when they had to kill a baby in front of the mother and become fully trained or something? So there was this element of "turnabout is fair play" to Dany's decision, if the Astapori consider slave boys old enough to be treated like that at that age, why wouldn't free boys be old enough to be held responsible at the same age?

[@kerrychristensen7204]

I figured it had to do with Dany herself- the first book opens when she was 13 and had already bled. Then in the story she was married, bedded, and impregnated in rapid succession. Became a Khaleesi/Queen. 'A woman grown' as they say. I suppose she thought of only those younger than her as true children.

[@odintheterridorable8097]

I jokingly like to refer to your videos as “anti-Daenerys/anti-Targaryen propaganda”, but for real your reasoning is always thoughtful and I really enjoy your videos! It’s nice to get a different opinion on matters in GoT/ASOIAF, even if it’s not one I agree with.

[@chrisrubin6445]

also not quite as bad at the red wedding, but she attacked Yunkai under false pretenses of peace, and got the second sons drunk so they couldnt fight back. Pretty similar to Walder Frey and Roose Bolton imo.

[@simon2493]

Daemon the rouge price: My grand grand grand*X child

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

I always knew she'd be a villain. My girl was one dimensional. While everyone else developed or evolved, she kept in this regressive state of follow me or burn. Accept me or burn. I am your savior. I don't need to negotiate, I have dragons. What's worse than a tyrant that thinks they're a hero? cc Joffrey Both had very similar attitudes except Dany (being alone) aligned with slaves and Joffrey (being coddled) sought to be recognised on his own (cruelty) - cc disobeying his mother to make king like decisions such as unaliving Ned.

[@concept5631]

Shit gonna be wack when she reaches Westeros

[@DerOrso]

Pretty much this. During the burning of Kings Landing it hit me--what I had know all along, but didn't want to see--all Daenerys' repeated claims that the iron throne is hers--she's entitled to it--and that no one will stand between her and the throne. It goes beyond the clamoring's of of other kings and would-be kings. When Robert Baratheon took the throne from Aerys through war, and it was accepted by the seven kingdoms that forthwith he would be the legitimate king, demonstrates the understanding and acceptance of Westeros that the throne belonged to whomever was agreed upon my the lords of Westeros, and none other. That is why it is always such a big deal that when the throne changes hands, the new kings calls on all the lords of the lands to declare their loyalty to him--because it was never simply a clear-cut thing. It required a declaration. But in Daenerys' mind, the throne always was her right. She felt entitled to it, because she inherited it from her father, and the Baratheons had no claim, because they usurped the throne from Aerys. So Robert had conqurred the kingship in war... just like ... ahem... Aegon the Conqueror had done , but that was >cough> completely lost on Dany. Daenerys instigated many heinous acts, but then she seemed to truly feel for victims of slaver, of accidentally being killed by one of her dragons, or the slaves. But then was so stupid, that when in--I think it was Meereen--after the slaves were freed, the economy completely failed, because literally no one was working. All the work previously done by slaves, was simply not being done. No one running the shops, no one handling trade, transportation, farming, because these were formerly done by slaves. And the freed slaves were also starving, because they had no money to procure food, and Dany couldn't feed them. And NOBODY came up with the idea that the former slaves ought to maybe work for wages in the shops, or transporting food and goods, or working on the farms, you know, just all Dany's advisors and companions had seen all their lives in all the rest of the free world. So when Dany made her 'it's my throne, mine mine mine' tirades over and over again, I just chalked it up to GRRM's strange way of telling stories - plus I really wanted Dany to be a gook person, who really just wanted to make the world a better place.

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

@@mschell8022 any person who understands writing can see she didn't evolve. Most of her depth was seen when she was sold to Khal Drogo. Ever since she saw power, she couldn't change. She couldn't evolve. She faces a trial and pulls her dragon. Shiiiid, Naruto has more depth than girlie. She was a tyrant who held on to slaves to appear like a hero. You see the other characters change from Tyrion to Sansa to Jon to Stannis to Jamie. She remained the same. Like Joffrey. Like Cersei. Like Ramsay.

[@joshuaadams6565]

She literally embraces the culture when she arrives at Meereen. She chains her dragons up and starts dressing like the locals. She’s even willing to marry into one of the families… she may be destined for a dark path but “one dimensional” isn’t a realistic outlook on her story. Her whole storyline in Meereen hasn’t been “Follow me or burn”, it’s been the complete opposite. She’s yet to even reach “follow me or burn”. She’s only JUST mastering Drogon. People have been wanting to finally see her use her power that she’s been holding back for so long…

[@TAOBIAF]

@@mschell8022 she's not the central character lol, she's ONE part of the three-main-character theme Jon, Dany, and Tyrion in that order (Ice, Fire, and the Twist at the end)

[@bpf10]

I never really engaged in the debate that Dany *couldn't* be a villain, to me the seeds were always there, she was always willing to do anything it took for her to gain power we as viewers just happened to align with her morally like we do for most of the POV characters The final season rushed it for sure but I never agreed with the aspect that making her bad was dumb

[@legofan4409]

I think it will be clear once she meets young Griff and we can see how she handles meeting a potential Targaryen with a stronger claim to the throne then her. Will she accept him and join forces? Or will she shun him, accuse him of trying to steal her throne and birthright, as well as her dragons and armies?

[@justinjones9579]

The prophecy she got from the warlocks is sure to make her weary of a "false dragon"

[@KateeAngel]

Targaryens and Valyrians always were villains. And I mean those of them that use dragons and fire power for their goals. Once you think it is ok to kill even one person just cause you want (not when the law of whatever land you are in already states it is ok to execute a criminal), you will sooner or later think that it is ok to kill many

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@mschell8022 bruh arguing that she's not a targaryen is ridiculous. What did rhaenys give birth to if not dany? And viserys was there so he would definitely know if the pregnancy was fake or if she somehow gave birth to someone who wasn't dany.

[@SorceressWitch]

@@mschell8022 What? Who are these many? You're the first person I have seen make this claim. Her mother was queen Rhaella and her father was king Aerys II. Her mother died giving birth to her. She had siblings Rhaegar and Viserys so I don't understand how she can't be Targaryen. She also has the silver gold hair and violet eyes. She is also the mother of 3 dragons.

[@untroubledwaters2137]

Mirri did nothing wrong.

[@TheCreepyLantern]

the scariest part of "can she be redeemed" is what would the first step to redemption even look like? she's sure as hell not gonna sit down and go "wait, that thing i did all those years ago was a bit fucked up actually" None of the unsullied can/will call her out on it and like you said, the odds are none of the survivors are likely to make it to her throne room to ask her what she was thinking either.

[@lordfreerealestate8302]

I have mixed feelings about the concept of redemption in stories for many reasons.

[@ladyorapma]

She COULD easily be redeemed if that's where GRRM wanted the story to go, but I don't think she will be because it doesn't seem to be where the story is going.

[@stephenjenkins7971]

Personally speaking, I would at most say that this foretold her darker turn to be sure; even GRRM initially wrote the books with the idea of Dany being an INVADER rather than a savior of Westeros; so only those who are blind can really think that she will be a penultimate hero.

[@kiracarver988]

The only way I could see a redemption for Dany at this point is for some great cataclysm caused by her actions to shake her perspective, hard, and perhaps lead her to sacrifice her goals to save the world from the Others. There's a theory circulating that Dany accidently burns kings Landing, realizes her folly, and turns North to end the fight against the Others, which I think there is room for in the books. I really do understand why people who only watched the show don't see Dany's growing habit of tyranny. Even when the show has her say threatening stuff to the leaders of Qaarth, for example, it's framed in such a way that it comes off as a victory when she fulfills those threats. But people who read the books should know better. And anyone who's delved even a little into Martin's personal philosophies should understand he's far from a proponent of conquering, or weapons of mass destruction. He's an author who doesn't believe in absolute authority. Why would he write a kind, benevolent character who also feels entitled to absolute rule, and is willing to destroy entire cultures to get there? If anything, I consider Daenerys a tragic, cautionary character. It's quite sad to read about her hopes for a peaceful kingdom, knowing she has no clue how to reach that outcome without some degree of annihilation. And when she starts to learn the truth about her father and her thoughts skew towards fear of becoming like him, I both pity Daenerys and grow incredibly frustrated that she's traipsing right along that path without an ounce of self-awareness. Her character demonstrates that in order to avoid the mistakes of those who came before, one must entirely forsake the path already forged.

[@viridianacortes9642]

I think it’s because in the show, the show runners wanted to portray her as the liberator of slaves. Liberating slaves is not a bad thing. So they made it seem like she only hurt those who were evil. Unlike the book, the show never showed Danny purposefully hurting innocent people or exploiting slaves to gain power. So, maybe that’s why her turn to pure villainy seemed less earned in the show. But I think you are right. She really did always have the potential to be evil.

[@kiracarver988]

@@viridianacortes9642 no yeah, like I said I totally understand why people didn't see it coming. I agree with you.

[@rehaan6428]

"Martin's personal philosophies" You mean the same person who wrote this in Fevre dream far before he even began writing ASOIAF? ========================================================================================================= “I never held much with slavery […]. You can’t just go… usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended.” - Abner ======================================================================================================== You mean the same person who said this? ============================================================================================================== You know: Back then it was said then that most draft boards and all the draft boards were local, would not give you a CO (Conscientious Objector) status if you only objected to Vietnam. They would only give it to you if you were a complete Pacifists and objected to All wars. And I was NOT a complete Pacifist you know. The the big question they would always ask you is would you have fought in World War II against the Nazi’s. Well YES I would have fought in World War II against the Nazi’s. But the Veit-Cong were not the Nazi’s and uh I didn’t think America had any business in Vietnam and so forth. So I was objecting that Particular war. I still think the Vietnam war was a terrible idea for America, but I STILL would have fought against the Nazi’s.” ============================================================================================================== Dany's war is the only war aside from the one against White Walkers that is just, and clearly George seems to think so as well. " Why would he write a kind, benevolent character who also feels entitled to absolute rule, and is willing to destroy entire cultures to get there? " 1.) Her war against slavery had nothing to do with absolute rule, nothing at all. 2.) Destroying entire cultures? The only part of the culture she is destroying is slavery. She wears their clothes, respects their gods and never does anything against a peaceful part of the culture that doesn't degrade her. 3.) Entitled to absolute rule? She says multiple times that she'd rather be a simple girl who is happy than be in her position. She literally says she would have given up the throne had Daario asked it.

[@GhostEmblem]

I think the Mirri Maz duur incident is much stronger evidence than her considering 13 to be an adult. The later is closer to ignorance due to her upbringing the former is lashing out at someone who did everything in their power to help her dispite the treatment she and her people recieved. Edit: Also I dont think the characters in these books should be thought of as heros or villans I stopped doing that when Ned died.

[@kragary]

The whole MMM situation is still really confusing to me. Just when it looks like Mirri did nothing wrong and Dany is being unreasonable Mirri confesses... I don't know what to think about it.

[@lyamainu]

@@kragary EVEN IF mmm did it, which is debatable, how can anyone say that was the wrong thing to do? A prisoner of war, a slave, tried to take out the person directly responsible for the death and suffering of her and everyone she loves. Dany ordered the unsullied to rise up and kill their masters, but mmm deserved to be tortured to death for the same thing?

[@lindenshepherd6085]

This video is a bit disappointing, if I'm being honest. I understand that film is your medium and that you read the books after watching the show, which might be why you missed some things. In season 2, when Dany goes to visit Qarth, she threatens the city guards to open the gates. She clearly isn't a fit state to fight, and neither are her men, so Xaro Xhoan Daxos convinces the other council members to let her in. Her first approach to getting into the city was an attempt at violence, and her people would have died of starvation and dehydration if one of the council members hadn't taken pity on her. In the book, things are very different. Dany is starting to realize the sheer power her name and her dragons possess, and because of these things she is let into the city without issue. The lesson she learns here isn't about the utility of violence, it's about not letting other people take advantage of her. In the scene that you piece a part, I'm glad that you took care to mention Dany's own twisted view of childhood, but you seem to have skipped over another part of Dany's perspective. She views the wearers of the tokar as wealthy and enslavers, because in the other cities in Slaver's Bay, the garment is a sign of wealth. It is only in Astapor that it is a sign of freeborn status. Not to mention, in a city where thousands of young (impoverished and most likely enslaved) boys are taken to become Unsullied and thousands more die in the process, it is highly unlikely that the freeborn have a large population in comparison to the slaves. Dany's actions here are informed by what she understands about the culture and by her own trauma. That doesn't make things right, obviously, but it makes her actions more morally grey than many people in the comments seem to acknowledge. Also, something that I noticed in the series is that they make Hizdar a lot more sympathetic, but they keep Dany's reactions to him. He is much more grey and suspicious in the books, with him being the likely attempted assassin behind the poisoned dates. He also constantly pressures her to adapt customs of the city like wearing a tokar and opening the fighting pits. In the books, he reminds her that she can't get what she wants unless she gives in somewhere, and he never seems scared of her power like he does in the show. He treats her like a child: a powerful one, yes, but not a child that could intimidate him without her army and dragons directly behind her. In their one-on-one interactions, he reads as manipulative, and while Dany makes her frustration apparent, she knows (and he knows) that she'll have to give in to some of his demands, even if it goes against her principles and weakens her public image by going from queen to consort. Hizdar knows she can't hold out forever, and when he finally gets her agreement to a wedding he successfully forces her into wearing the tokar and bride garments. He knows her feelings about these garments, but has no problem with (and even seems to take smug pride) in forcing her to wear the tokar and bride pearls. Dany in the books is very much a child who knows she can be naïve and is constantly trying to make up for it. When she learns that a child is burned alive because of her dragons' freedom, she chains her surrogate children under a fighting pit, despite having grown up with stories about dragon's stunted growth from living in similar pits. When Dany learns that killing the masters doesn't solve political issues and that some slaves actually preferred their cushy lives as teachers and nannies, she realizes Meereen requires a more nuanced, long-term solution. She chooses to stay in order to learn from her earlier mistakes and continue to grow as a leader. When she kills Mirri Maz Dur, we as the audience know there is more to it. Mirri's village was slaughtered, she was already being raped by the time Dany found her, and she did seem to genuinely try to help Dany with Drogo's wound and later death. She didn't tell Dany the cost of her wish for Drogo's life and blames Dany for her child's death, though, not to mention that she studied in Asshai, a place of darkness and death where a lot of morally grey and evil arts are studied. Though she tells Dany not to enter the tent, she does not help when Dany goes into labor and seems to take schadefreude from the death of her baby. Unfortunately, we are not given her own perspective to sort through these mixed messages about her character, but we are given Dany's. Dany clearly didn't understand the limited nature of her own ability to help and expected the enslaved women to be grateful for any form of assistance, just as she was when she was first enslaved. When she learns that it isn't enough to just take women on as her own slaves, she struggles with what to do. Hearing from Mirri Maz Dur that she didn't help Mirri at all at the same time as losing Drogo and her baby, Dany (understandably) comes to the conclusion that her child's death was Mirri's revenge. Mirri refuses to apologize and drops any pretense of kindness, even up to moment where she's burning alive. From Dany's perspective, Mirri chose to hurt Dany because of the slavery of the khalasar, something Dany tries to repeatedly prevent and ameliorate. Mirri hurts a twelve-year-old child bride because she can't hurt the men who raped her. There are dark moments for Dany's character, like her seeming pleasure at witnessing Viserys's golden death, but I don't think they point to a villainous end for her character. A lot of her black-and-white thinking stems from her being a child, and as the series goes on she is constantly evolving her moral thinking and handling of nuance. As she grows older, I imagine she is going to struggle a lot with her Targaryen instincts and dragonish tendencies, but from what I can tell in the books, these instances are just setting up the conflict, not foreshadowing her fall to the dark side. All that said, I do appreciate you coming up with more controversial ASOIAF theories and pushing the fandom. I also really appreciate your more feminist approach to things the fandom takes for granted, like Sansa's romantic tendencies and the alleged love between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[@bwminich]

It's interesting, as only a show watcher myself, I also pegged Dany as a villain. Mainly because of how entitled she feels to the Iron Throne. Like, she has a pretty decent situation in Slaver's Bay, actually. She has a kingdom, she is able to rule it, she seems to have weathered political storms to end up being the queen who liberated a region. But she STILL INSISTS on going to Westeros. Why? That will only make her kingdom more unstable, more likely to fall back into the hands of slavers, and for what? A shot at taking back a kingdom that has had a couple of dynasties and doesn't really seem to have much actual support for you these days? You are going to bring MORE war to a continent with too much war as of late? Just what? Also, she is always threatening people who don't submit to her. That was going to turn onto someone who we thought didn't deserve it at SOME point. The thing the show failed at was showing this tendency more tangibly in the last couple of seasons. People had kind of forgotten how ruthless Dany could be. Or the reminders were also couched in "isn't this an EPIC thing Dany did, walking out of fire like that?!?!" Plus, the odds were against her there, not a great place to highlight that she has a ruthless side. They needed to have more scenes where she talked openly about how she was going to give Westeros a chance to submit to her rule, and then . . . they would be killed by her dragons. This needed to be well understood by the viewers, that she said this and meant it. I was not surprised when she had a heel turn. I had begun to hope it wouldn't happen . . . but part of me knew. But I completely get why people forgot about this side of her, it wasn't really being emphasized in the show like it should have been at this point.

[@lmaoashley]

For me, what made me believe that she’s a villain is simply the fact that she is so strongly associated with fire and dragons. Dragons are not benevolent creatures in the books. They are seen as monsters, destructive, almost evil creatures. Fire magic is also painted in a negative light. Think Melisandre’s human sacrifices, R’hllor, the destruction of Valyria, etc. Dany appears to be the vessel of R’hllor and the dark magic associated with it. I could be wrong tho, but all of that symbolism always made me think Dany would end up a villain, or at least a gray character.

[@mistersharpe4375]

I'm not a big fan of the books anymore, but I've often wondered if the actions of Stannis Baratheon, especially his attack on King's Landing, weren't originally meant to be undertaken by Daenerys in an earlier conception of the story, back when it was still meant to be a trilogy.

[@brigidmadden5577]

In fairness the in universe equivalent of unicorns are on an island in the north populated by cannibal tribes

[@MayumiSaegusaShiba]

@@mschell8022 magic is not neutral in asoiaf lol, most instances with it involve some kind of atrocity

[@brigidmadden5577]

@@MayumiSaegusaShiba I feel like you could say the same thing if the characters got their hands on electricity. Shit would go south fast

[@MayumiSaegusaShiba]

@@brigidmadden5577 sure maybe, but magic has been portrayed in asoiaf in a very specific manner and it's almost always never good.

[@jaredmcdaris7370]

Dany does not order the Unsullied to kill children. She leaves the option open if any individual Unsullied deems it necessary, but as you yourself point out, she *orders* them to kill adults. Still not great, but she does not order the killing of children. This is (I think) a direct echo of the middle of A Game of Thrones, where she still deems slavery to be bad but necessary for her goals; until she sees the taking of slaves by the Dothraki, and she refuses to countenance it any further. Here in A Storm of Swords, she deems child-killing to be bad but necessary for her goals; slavery is now inexcusable. This can then be contrasted with her time in A Dance With Dragons, where she categorically refuses to kill her child hostages. If we are to take this moment of “no child under twelve” as an indication of an evil lack of concern for children, then her attitude toward her hostages in A Dance With Dragons directly represents character development away from villainy.

[@normtrooper4392]

So when are we going to find out Hill's Alive is the unexpected villain of game of thrones youtubers? Jokes aside, good video. The seeds were always there. People just got obsessed with the girl boss gas slaying everyone

[@Alex-bz8lj]

She was always gonna end up to be a tyrant just like her dad but the show handled it very poorly

[@eighteentwilight8547]

I don’t care if she’s a villain or a hero, she’s a good character and I love her story.

[@Mic-Mak]

Your argument about Dany's willingness to kill children over 12 is valid, but haven't other "good" characters been responsible for similar acts? At what age is one considered an adult in #ASOIAF? 16? I'm genuinely asking. I am not dismissing the severity of Dany's decision. When you consider characters that are perceived as "good" by fans, such as "Tyrion" and "Robb", do you think they are villainous? Or have performed acts of villainy? I'm not trying to make the argument that these characters are as "villainous" as Dany, though that might be possible. I'm simply putting to you the idea that they might also be guilty of "villainy", even if to a lesser degree. When Robb invades the Westerlands aren't innocent people, including children and non-soldiers, being killed? Through Jaime, Brienne, and Arya chapters, don't we hear about some of the not so honorable acts committed by the Stark army? I pose this question to you because to me, it seems like a lot of #GoT & #ASOIAF fans who are completely sold on Dany's villainy and land on the high end of the theory's wickedness spectrum, have a big blind spot when it comes to the assumed virtue of other characters like Tyrion and Varys. They seem to have a double standard, which, to fans on the opposite side, registers as sexist. Once again, I want to reiterate what I said in my previous comment that I 100% believe that Dany will have a dark arc. I completely agree with you that she has hidden angles of antagonism, which you have well demonstrated. I believe that, in the words of Adam Feldman, Dany will be maneuvered into a mental place where she’ll decide to sideline her concerns for innocent life, and take what she wants with fire and blood. But I don't think that necessarily means she IS a full-blown villain, or that her legacy will be one of a mad evil queen. I believe her arc will end in heroism. I could be totally wrong though because, despite all the evidence pointing one way or another, we don't know.

[@j.a.6310]

@@mschell8022 Please calm down. You are not the victim. Dany is one of the most popular characters and is the most popular character among rabid show only viewers. Your own media illiteracy is not a crime by others onto you.

[@j.a.6310]

What good characters ordered the systematic whole sale slaughter of civilian children of 12 years and older? Please list them cause you typed a lot but didn't give examples. And no, in case you really need it spelled out: a soldier fighting another soldier is not the same as the mass murder of civilians.

[@Mic-Mak]

@@j.a.6310 Are you suggesting that Dany is the most villainous character in ASOIAF? I never said that soldier fighting soldiers is the equivalent of murdering civilians. Never. I simply argued that a lot fans who uncritically accept Dany's villainy, have a blind spot, and therefore a double standard, when it comes to the acts of other characters they deem good like Tyrion, Robb, and Varys.

[@j.a.6310]

@@Mic-Mak So you can't answer the question. Which "good characters" have done something a kin to ordering the mass murder of civilian children? Please answer or don't reply.

[@scarymonsterzz]

@@j.a.6310 Jon was definitely willing to take on a kill wildling child hostages he specifically threatens to kill Gilly's baby. Stannis was getting the kindling ready for Edric Storm. It may not technically be "wholesale slaughter" of children but it's child-murder nonetheless. Also just look at Tywin's actions dueing Robert's rebellion and the rape of the riverlands. Granted Tywin isn't considered a "good character" to us readers. But he's still not never punished for his war crimes. The high lords of Westros dress their brutal politics up but they're still just as brutal.

[@Iridescence93]

Devil's advocate here. In a medieval setting 12 and 13 year old boys might be considered fighting age. It wouldn't make what she ordered good but it at least provides a rationale that isn't pure evil just ruthless.

[@lemonadelemon1960]

We still on that? D and d slaughtered Jon, Tyrion and Dany character arcs so they could be done with got and go work on their precious Star wars. They literally made ish up as they went.🤣 And you expect one line in the books to explain D and d's major disregard for the show? Are you mad? 😭🧐

[@c.w.8200]

She's a teenager making world changing decisions, I think based on the moral compass and analytic skills of the average teenager she's not even that bad, I knew some guys in school, if they got their hands on weapons of mass destruction and a huge army at 14 or 15 humanity would be eradicated from the planet within a week.

[@caram2765]

Do you know how those guys turned out as adults?

[@klatie256]

I have some issues with your takes. You are analyzing these character’s morality through a modern lense. This is a completely different world with completely different lived experiences. In response to Dany’s liberation of Astapor, strategically she had the upper hand with surprise, and if she allowed people to have trials it would have been a bloody stupid mess.

[@ladyorapma]

There is that quote (no idea who said it) about how "every villain is the hero of their own story" and ASOIAF doesn't has an omniscient narrator, the story is told by diferent characters POV's which are going to be obviously biased in their own favor. The other main characters with points of views interacted with each other and we got to see different perspectives of their acts but Dany was alone so for a long time we had no other point of view that her own about her actions. This was something I had in mind since the beginning, and while I didn't saw Dany as a villain I always expected things to go to shit when Dany arrived to Westeros because even if she was a hero from her POV she wasn't going to be one for the other characters. But I admit that even if I never expected her to be the hero that would arrive, save everyone and take the throne while everyone else cheered her on, I still excused and/or ignored a lot of the red flags in her book chapters, maybe it was because I liked her, or because of the POV's trap, or because in the books she was so young, just a kid, so I thought that it was normal that she made "mistakes", or maybe it was the influence of the tv show putting heroic music and changing her scenes just enough to make it look better, or maybe it was so many people around me screaming about how she was the hero... for any of those reasons or more probably because all of them I ignored a lot of red flags. Until I reread the books. I think it between seasons 6 and 7 when I read all of them again. And this time I noticed since the first book all the red flags I previously ignored and/or excused, and the more I read more of them I was able to see. It become clear to me not only that I was right to think that Dany's arrival to Westeros wasn't going to be the heroic moment that many fans expected, but I also that Dany was a lot more dark that I thought. We don't know yet how the events will happen in the books, but at this point should be clear that with Daenerys we are not seeing the story of a hero rising, we are seeing her descent into the villain.

[@noahmclaughlin7921]

Well I didn’t see her as a villain while reading the books, her policies on crime in her cities were pretty suspicious for me. She said they’d hang any murderers, castrate any rapists, and cut a hand off of any theif. People are killed for lesser things than murder in the asoiaf universe so that is understandable. Castration for rapists seems pretty extreme compared to imprisonment. In fact Daemon did the same thing and Daemon is pretty fucking evil, but still that’s at least somewhat understandable. But a hand for looting? Randal fucking Tarly, the guy who threatened to murder his son for not being a manly enough man only cut off a finger for looting/theft. It does show Dany’s rather extreme nature towards punishment, and makes you question how fair her new society really is.

[@thequeenb5803]

Most of the main characters are hurt and abused children or adults who themselves were at some point hurt. The story is about the unlikely hero, not the “white night” or the “dark devil”, so Dany is actually perfect. Also Dany much like Sansa has been through and seen much and a theme for both characters is to not let the cruelty of the world harden and change them. And while this means one thing for Sansa, for Dany however it means she must realise that sometimes gentility in the face of horror when you are in a position to power is no different than being complicit. Also Dany has had no self agency until Drogos death but after that Dany chooses her fate at every turn. She protects others in opposition of how she was not protected, she frees in opposition to how she was not freed, she gives others a home in opposition of how she is lacking a home, etc. And the tragedy Rhaegars ironic character is that he HAD to be wrong to create the necessary conditions for Dany to be the one to birth dragons from stone. And in that way Dany is the tragic hero who only desires safety, home and love but was destined for revulsion, magic and self sacrifice. Dany becoming mad is not in line with her themes, her actions or her belies. It would be more interesting for her to be a subversion of the concurring Valyrians by being the liberating Dany. Instead of the political leader like royal Targs, for Dany to be the self sacrificing fantastical hero. Also evil queens are common in literature but for grrm to make his fantasy story’s main hero be a teen girl in the 90s. A teen girl who is the definition of a tragically heroic character after establishing that women are historically usurped from power in-world would be subversive as fuck. It is also important to acknowledge the many characters that would suffer due to the Dany madness arc: Cersie is clearly a parallel for Aerys. This madness parallel would dispel the myth of Targaryen madness and instead show that POWER incites madness more often than not. The fact that Cirsie is Tywins daughter who him self connections with Aerys is poetic. And the fact that Tywin raised Cersie to accept the superiority of the Lannisters and that power is their right is also a subverted parallel of how Visaerys raised Dany. And the reason Dany wants to go to westeros is due to her brother claiming it as their rightful home. But while Dany wants the throne due to a misguided belief that is is equivalent to the home Dany is searching for, Cercie wants the throne cuz she believes POWER is rightfully hers. Rhaegal and Melisandre’s themes as tragicly ironic characters as well as the theme of being weary of how to interprets prophecies would also be non existent if Dany went mad. The paralel of jon and dany is easy to see in the books but to make jon the hero and dany either a sacrifice or a villain, whether tragically or not, would be expected but to subvert it instead, grrm has stated he wants to subvert many parts of the story, would be interesting. So where as Dany who has lived a hard life finds agency and express this by being the antithesis of her ancestors and family, Jon MAY find agency by being more nefarious as this would essentially be the antithesis of “northern honor”. Also it would be interesting to take into account the relatively comfortable life Jon has lived as the hidden “prince” archetype. So him becoming a tragic villain after the resurrection that we readers KNOW will have a negative effect on him would be interesting. However this all would not be possible if its Dany who becomes “the mad queen”. These are but SOME of the other characters who would suffer if Dany where to be turned mad. Not to mention the AA stuff, the stuff with the blood betrays as well as the dance of the dragons and even tshmtp prophecy.

[@g_wylde]

If anything I wonder if George will change his plan after the blowback to GOT S8. Also because I'm pretty sure the idea of the main female protagonist who was fighting to become the first ruling Queen becoming a "mad" villain instead and being killed by her male relative/lover probably looked cooler (and less problematic) in the early 90s than it does now. Not that innovative to say that an abused girl who got power ended up raging mad because of it before ever becoming queen properly. Rhaenyra's story is already remembered that way, and Cersei has already won the cup on maddest evillest queen. It just cements the idea that women can't be trusted to wield power, that woman are illogical and crazy, that it's for good reason that only men generally get to rule. I for one certainly hope that isn't the message George is sending, either intentionally or accidentally. So I actually think Dany WILL have her lowest/highest point of powerthirsty firey madness and become the 'villain', but then she'll have a reckoning and a redemption arc. Her death by Jon's hand might even be a consenting sacrifice on her part, and thus complete the redemption arc. Hence why we get to see her whole journey, so we can symphatise with her and what she's gone through and what was considered normal around her, e.g. murder, burning people alive, absolute power... all things we instinctively see as evil now, but which were normalised and even glorified in Dany's time and environment. We can't hold her to our modern standards of morality, but by reading her POVs we can understand how Dany turned out the way she did, and so we'll be better prepared to accept her redemption journey.

[@persephone342]

Agreed. GRRM also is taking the old tales of the valiant knight, the benevolent king, the heroic queen, or the innocent princess, and fleshing them out beyond their typical stereotypes. He wants his readers to see the pitfalls of believing in fairytales. The good guys often die and the evil often win. It takes a grey character to destroy evil people. You must be willing to walk in both the light and the dark, to challenge power, and to be flexible in your morals. In war, you either embrace darkness or you die. If you live through it, you can heal and rebuild. Ned died because of his “honor”. Had he worked with Renly and Varis, the kingdom wouldn’t have been plunged into war. He should have told the gold cloaks to seize Cersei, Joffrey, and Tomin. Had he used the power that Robert gave him and listened to the council of those who actually knew what was going on, many would have been spared. Dany was the villain. She was entitled and foolish. It doesn’t matter if you have dragons, that doesn’t make you a Queen. It was seeing the true respect that people from all sides had for Jon that revealed the true qualities of a ruler. He was loved because he was a good and honorable man. He fought for all the people, including the ones she would have likely slayed for refusing to bend the knee. Instead of winning them over by her actions, she terrified them. He was a bastard in the eyes of all those people, and they named him king. With the reveal of his true parentage, his ascension to the throne was inevitable an d she knew that. The people would have bent the knee to him and celebrated his reign. No one was ever going to celebrate her in that way. Had she an ounce of humility, she could have been his queen and ruled with him as a true equal. But or favorite heroine wasn’t that kind of girl. She was a conqueror at heart. Sadly, she didn’t have the benefit of age and wisdom to teach her how to be a good ruler. RIP Danaerys of House Targeryon,

[@HillsAliveYT]

I highly doubt he'll change it simply because it would fly in the face of a lot of major storylines and themes in the show, and because one of the biggest complaints about the show wasn't the twist, but that the buildup was bad. Within the books themselves, the buildup has already been way clearer and more obvious than it was in the show. I doubt that Dany will have a redemption arc though, I mean the notion of a redemption arc for someone who kills potentially over a million people is just unfathomable to me, and I don't see GRRM giving her character an out or trying to rationalize away her actions. The narrative punishment that characters get in ASOIAF is usually far more intense than most readers would expect from this kind of fiction, so if characters like Robb or Ned get brutally punished for their mistakes then I can't imagine Dany will be redeemed for deciding to commit mass genocide.

[@persephone342]

@@mschell8022 King/Queen, the gender is irrelevant. Fantasy as a genre, has examples of both tropes. Only Disney glorifies the evil Queen/Witch/step-mother trope. Classical Fantasy often did portray women as weak and foolish or powerful yet evil. Such was the ways of men writing fiction in those times. They catered to their audiences and unfortunately, many weren’t comfortable with heroic queens or powerful women. An absolute Failure of imagination if you ask me. Regardless, GRRM loves to write stories that mirror our own history and he likes his characters to be realistic instead of idealized. This is what I love about his work. No character is safe in his stories, which is true IRL. Good, honorable, and kind people die unjustly everyday, but so do evil sadistic ones. Death doesn’t discriminate whatsoever. It isn’t grand destiny or the gods protecting others, rather it’s the actions of the common folk who actually protect the greater good of the realm. Without men and women willing to risk their own lives in service to the realm, more innocents would be killed or harmed. Kings and tyrants aren’t the ones on the battlefield, it’s their bannermen and vassals. The nobility doesn’t care about the people and most of them don’t even see the people as deserving of life, liberty, or safety. So when the people have enough, they ban together to overthrow their rulers. Power resides where men believe it does; The only power you have is what the people allow you to take - Varys and The Lady Misery.

[@persephone342]

@@mschell8022 I meant that gender is irrelevant when it comes to whether a person would make a good monarch or not. Some of the best rulers in our own world history have been women. We’ve also had great kings too. The ability to rule isn’t dependent on gender, it’s dependent on skill.

[@theseanwright]

This did not eat.

[@AlishaHerbiederbie]

The Daenerys in the books is coded as a conqueror by any means necessary. She is young and brash and prone to striking first, consequences be damned. The show spent years trying to mask that instead of leaning into it, which made her seemingly abrupt change in the finale feel unjustified. I could easily imagine book Daenerys burning Kings Landing if that's what it took to win back the throne.

[@AlishaHerbiederbie]

@@mschell8022 It's not just Daenerys, but since the video was focused on her so was my comment. In the books a lot of characters, regardless of age, have the same type of behaviors for sure, but with Daenerys it feels glossed over in no small part because of her portrayal in Game of Thrones. The audience is led to view her as a savior and heroine, even if the same actions would be vilified had they been done by let's say Stannis or Tywin or Jon. I appreciate that GRRM has consequences for actions that have a ripple effect, even if the character themselves felt their actions were justified. With Daenerys she does feel her actions are justified, we read that in her POV chapters. However, her believing she is right and her actions being morally right are two different things.

[@AlishaHerbiederbie]

@@mschell8022 I disagree that only Daenerys is self reflective, self critical, character in the series, but I respect your differing opinion.

[@AlishaHerbiederbie]

@@mschell8022 Oh no worries! The amazing thing about ASOIAF is how so many characters are not distinctly Good or Bad, it allows for open discussion and interpretation. I find it interesting that we can look at the same character and text and find so many layers to them. Daenerys is a very complex character, whether or not she becomes an antagonist.

[@lisacook8235]

This ain't for real is it? 'Cause it's ass-backwards.

[@Mj_Jetson]

For me, the "ooooh, she's the villain" moment came a bit sooner in the chapter: They want a glimpse of dragons to tell their children of, and their children's children. It made her wonder how many of them would ever have children. (Daenerys III ASoS) Something about the way that's worded is completely bone-chilling.

[@midnightcoalexpress]

I think what we tend to forget is the time and era we are looking at. 12 and older WERENT really considered children back then. Especially since life spans were much shorter. She also lived in a much harsher dog eat dog kind of world. We tend to put our beliefs and morals of the current society we live in to the characters in these time periods. Which you just CANT do because they are completely separate worlds. Is she all good and pure. HELL to the NO she is not. But is she doing what is needed of her in as compassionate of a way she can with what she has and the time period she’s in? Yes. She’s not an outright villain by any stretch of the means. And her burning innocent women and children just for shits and giggles didn’t make sense for her character at the time because there wasn’t enough build up to it. Even Jon and Ned have had to make some harsh decisions because of the world they live in. They just didn’t have dragons or the weight of a crown on their head lol

[@GravesLilDarkAngel]

I've always been baffled how viewers of the series ignored something nefarious in Dani in the second season alone when she says she'll take the iron throne by blood and fire. That was the second season...and yes, one can argue that she was with in her rights but that doesn't paint her as the benevolent queen they were pushing.

[@bgcvetan]

There are no good guys in Martin's world, only shades of dark gray depending on your PoV.

[@1911odisea]

9:10 It's tokhar AND a whip, not tokhar OR a whip, so I don't think it necessarily suggests free people.

[@atro-city]

The showrunners had everything handed to them and they chose to disregard everything. Why did George even trust them in the first place is beyond me. I have also heard people say that Benniof's adaptation of Iliad in Troy (2004) is also bad and completely ignorant of the themes of the source material.

[@thekittenthatwantschicken8018]

sorry to burst your bubble son but dany was always going to be the baddie in books and show. You guys just angry you didn't get the ending you wanted

[@SorceressWitch]

Yet people enjoyed Troy. However not many movies are not accurate to source material. Braveheart is another example of being full of innacuracies.

[@atro-city]

@@thekittenthatwantschicken8018 lot of assumptions there, first of all, yes, there are hints throughout the books that Dany has deep flaws (her treatment of Mirri for instance) but they are there for a reason, she definitely suffers from the savior complex but that was completely lost on the showrunners who actually promoted this savior complex without exploring it much, and removing her flaws, SHOWING her as the righteous savior, because "themes are for 8th grade book reports" Plus the ending is not the issue, I had checked out at season 6 and the drop in quality was no surprise for me. You can like the show all you want, but this "you didn't like it because it wasn't what you wanted" is just bs, there are plenty of things that ended how I didn't want them and still loved them, they have to make more sense the more you think about them, the show just does not make sense.

[@thekittenthatwantschicken8018]

@@atro-city People are mad simply cause they didn't get the ending they wanted somewhere down the line the normies thought this show was going to get a disney ending with jon and dany ruling together...as ramsay put it " if you think this story has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention" Danys ending in show made total sense it was just a bit rushed but her endgame was always going to be her being the big baddie at the end

[@atro-city]

@@SorceressWitch there's plot accuracy and then there's thematic accuracy, Plot inaccuracies are not a problem. Here's an example: I'm Thinking of Ending Things film is vastly different from the book, but the movie understands the themes of the story and expands upon them. Hell, you can even have thematic inaccuracies if there's a point to it (The Shining book vs the movie), Starship Troopers is also thematically inaccurate but it's kind of criticizing the book by being thematically inaccurate, and hence, making a point. But it's apparent when something is just shallow and lacks any thematic understanding of the original work. An example of this is the Watchmen comic and the Snyder movie, which kind of misses the point of the comic completely. Thrones and Troy lie in this category where all they wanna do is take the most surface level bit of the story (asoiaf and iliad) and make it look cool, and that's it, nothing wrong with it, but it needs to be recognized.

[@LizbetNene]

I don't think it makes a whole bunch of sense to catagorize the characters of ASOIAF into "heroes" and "villains" personally, I think that's sort of the point of the books. It kind of goes to show just how deeply rooted fairytales about righteous and true kings are in our culture and way of thinking that Daenaerys, whose entire motivation is the violent conquest of a continent, could ever be considered a heroic figure. The "legitimacy" of her claim seems to persuade most people her cause is ultimately just, as if the only question to ask about her campaign to reclaim the Seven Kingdoms is if the ends justify the means.

[@ChrisCarrasquillo]

I didn't know if she was going to be a villain but it was obvious from the beginning that she would never sit on the iron throne.

[@adamglenen734]

The show is definitely guilty of smoothing certain characters; Smooth Dany, Smooth Tyrion, etc.

[@brunosoares6151]

Westeros is no place for heroes but I'd say having some dark thoughts and making bad choices doesn't invalidate the good you may have done before. It's pretty shallow , to just decide "she or he is a villain" . Whatever Gerorge decides to do with her I hope she doesn't dies , Westeros is no place for silly girls , honored bastards and nice women in general .

[@FrizziExRose]

Becoming more familiar with the books, I don't think there's a "this is THE villain" character. I think Dany is a poor leader due to her sheltered and turbulent childhood, and her emotions lead her decision making due to the tremendous amount of trauma she's endured a whole 10 years before she's even got a fully developed brain. This, of course, doesn't excuse the horrors inflicted at her command. She is ever fixated on her birthright which is bolstered by the birth of her dragons. Something so magical has to mean she's the chosen one, right? Well, where I am in the books, she's still very much a child, and I think she's likely to remain one throughout major plot points unless there is a time skip at some point (I'm about a third of the way through ASOS). The only time she pushed back against the manipulations of all the adults in her life is when she feels like they're taking her further from Westeros. She wants to go home, she wants to claim her birthright, and she wants to achieve the absolutely impossible standard of everyone (excluding the list of traitors in her head) loving her at the end of her mission. She was set up for failure the moment she was forced to marry Drogo imo. Enter Tyrion, his twisted revenge fantasies and his superior intelligence to everyone advising her until they meet, and while she may be painted as the villain throughout Westerosi history books, it will be yet another adult far better skilled in manipulation pushing her into horrors D&D could not likely fathom. George very cleverly humanized all the main characters. The gray areas they explore rationalized by rights, honor, or their own pain make it hard to see how evil what they're doing (or what's happening to someone because of them) in the moment truly is. D&D took that ball and ran with it with Dany, and it caused such an incomprehensible character flip in the last season. If they had included more dark Dany (as she's presented in the book) it would've made far more sense. I'd get her being all merciless Fire and Blood in warfare against soldiers/in the battlefield with how she's painted in the show, but not intentionally burning down the capital city full of innocents. "I'm your liberator... now die screaming," is far too illogical with the level of character development done onscreen. "Submit or burn," will likely be her attitude by the time she gets to Westeros in the books, and I don't think it'll surprise anyone close to her. Except maybe Jorah's simp ass.

[@ayiza8511]

Lol Daenerys breathed weird she’s a villain gasp

[@saberpat7]

I don't agree with you saying writers wouldn't write heroes that mass murder children, that's too generalized, it could be possible that the intention is for Dany to learn from her mistakes and become a better ruler, the potential for that makes for a better tragedy, Dany is not a tragic hero because everyone thinks she's good when she isn't, its because she genuinely has good qualities and ideals but frequently succumbs to her worst instincts

[@GN.24.7]

Imma be fr, I sat through this and this entire video is just an example on why D&D forever changed how Dany truly was meant to be seen, especially since they cut the objective magic aspect out. Firstly Dany is the last High Valyrian dragon rider in a land where her ancestors originally conquered and got the institution of slavery from. If you look at Dany as just repeating her ancestors ur not understanding the culture in asoiaf, the dragon lords enslaved the enslavers but now the last dragon lord is wanting to end the practice for good. And that brings me to my 2nd point, this miss characterization of the Lord of Light being an “evil” God is pure insanity. The majority of pantheons that have connections to magic or not do not have a connection to the great other that euron is trying to resurrect, no matter if it’s the faith of the 7, the old gods or rhlorr, the great other is the one true evil presence, he’s the one who made the bloodstone emperor worship the oily black stones. Azor Ahai is not some “vessel” for a dark god? It’s the complete opposite, y’all are looking at her through a Game of thrones lens instead of an A Song of ice and FIRE lens. And also idc ab Georges original interpretation of Dany, for one he’s a gardener writer who wanted Arya and Jon to end up together originally. So that’s just a weak claim to use as to why Dany would go mad. I agree that she will be seen as foreign but her ending seems to be leading for smtn more sacrificial than it does mad, if anything I see Cersei or faegon blaming Dany for blowing up wildfire reserves when she comes for KL. And after this event she will sacrifice herself to fight the long night/Euron, the ending of asoiaf isn’t to restore the targs, it’s to end the cycle of pain and darkness through the light of justice, honor, and freedom. Dany represents these traits in the books more than in the show, and as much as I love Emilia’s characterization it gave us a one dimensional view that I feel the majority of fans do not understand, she doesn’t want power she wants to go to the red door with the lemon tree. Her entire arch is to struggle for peace, not just her own internal peace but the threat of the Others and the slavers/feudalistic system that seeks to keep the majority down while the rich and powerful can play games. Dany is the antithesis of what true evil, darkness, and madness is, and I’m sick of GoT Dany being used as the blueprint.

[@elisebrodeur-jacobs5215]

She's not a villain.

[@awaywiththefaeries9464]

I remember back in 2019 there were Dany fans declaring that book Daenerys wouldn’t be a villain and I was like… you do realise most people who predicted this read the books, right?

[@HillsAliveYT]

Yeah I find the book vs. show argument fascinating because a lot of people seem to think she's much less dark in the books while I think her villainous characteristics are far more overt in the books.

[@awaywiththefaeries9464]

@@mschell8022 maybe we just interact with different book readers then.

[@HillsAliveYT]

@@mschell8022 Yes, this entire channel is my own personal interpretation of the books, that's kind of the point of it.

[@c13-z5d]

@@mschell8022 🙄 OMG If you don't like hearing this then stop entering these types of channels and go to the content that tells you that Daenerys is virtue personified, the great liberator although in reality she is a disaster as a ruler because good intentions are not enough, where it ends married to Jon (who makes her his only priority forgetting the family he knows) having children and restoring the heroes of the story that are the Targaryens (who have full control of dragons used as weapons of mass destruction) Nobody is forcing you to see things that way but what is hateful about you the cult of Daenerys Targaryen is that you do not understand that there are people who do not kiss her feet and who are critical of her.

[@matteozucchi862]

@@mschell8022 Thus speaks the guy who wrote elsewhere "When you don't present any real argument and only throw insults to someone you disagree with, you do not appear rational or smart. I understand you don't like the arguments I present, but telling someone to "calm down" when you read something you disagree with only shows how strongly their words impacted you." It seems you too follow the trope of the hero (of your own story, obviously) turned villain, just like your fav Daenerys. By the way, "Hopefully you calm down too bro."

[@Ilargizuri]

I had to think a lot more about your question about Dany being Redeemed in the Books. For the Books I think that depends on her choices in the next 2 Books (more likely 4 for me🙄). The First Step towards redemption is always made by the Character who did something they need to be redeemed for. First they have to acknowledge that they did something wrong, that they commit a Crime. Redemption can only happen if the Characters realizes they are wrong, they did something wrong. That's why Jaime is on a redemption Arc he realizes that he did a lot of mistakes in his Life and he tries to be better. He works towards his redemption and normally Redemption is accomplished the moment the Character is forgiven. But trick with forgiveness is the fact it isn't earned, it never is, it is simply given. In Stories most of the time the writer has a target that the Redeeming Character wants Forgiveness from, in Jaimes Case that could be the Starks, but mostly he wants to forgive himself. With Daenerys there is the Problem, she doesn't realize she did something wrong or comitted some kind of Crime, she thinks all her Choices are justified and therefore she is in the right. So to answer your Question, I don't think she will be redeemed, because in her sense of entitlement (for the Throne and her right of being the strongest) she most likely will never realize what she does is either wrong or the wrong way for accomplish her goal or even get a solution for a Problem (like in Meereen and Slavers Bay with the destroyed Economics). I always say look to Star Wars how Vader was redeemed after he committed a lot of Crimes as Anakin and as Vader. He knew what he did was wrong, he knew would never be forgiven by the Galaxy and for someone who was once seen as a War Hero (in my Opinion a contradiction in terms) that meant it was all to late (something he also says himself in Return of the Jedi) during the Movie he changes his view, mostly because he doesn't want his Son to die. So he does something good, he still thinks he is not worth of Forgiveness. He accepts death as a punishment, but when he sees Luke with his own Eyes and realizes his Son forgives him anyway, no matter the Crimes he committed, that's the moment he can forgive himself. And that's the redeeming Moment for Vader, the one Person he wants forgiveness from forgives him, unconditionally. Unfortunately nearly no one gets that meaning, so we have these ... different Redemption Arcs in Movies, where death is seen as redemption, which it isn't but arguing about it doesn't make the People realize that Death is not redemption.

[@kragary]

But who could forgive Dany if the people she wronged are dead? I have a huge problem with this concept of people forgiving crimes committed against others or forgiving themselves on behalf of their victims.

[@Mrswhotio]

I love your videos! I always couldn't figure out why Dany gave me bad vibes in the earlier seasons of the show and in the books but man your videos are like taking all my jumbled thoughts and putting them together! You're awesome! Thank you!!

[@frankvandorp2059]

I'm not really convinced by the specific argument about the age cutoff point, this feels more like values dissonance to me, where we use 21st century morality to judge a medieval society. In Westeros and probably Essos as well, 13 year old seems to be the age where people were essentially seen as adults, they were allowed to marry and father or mother children at a very young age as well. Bran is considered 'almost a man' at 8. You might even argue the show didn't change anything here, because "harm no child" in their context would mean "harm no one under 12". So from Dany's perspective, she really did order the Unsullied to kill only adult slavers, and not children, and that's how everyone would see it (even though the act of killing every freeborn is still quite evil, of course).

[@han-oq6bo]

The reason game of thrones changed the line is because as you said Dany was 13 when her story started and thus didnt see 13 year olds as proper children. In the show she was 16.... she wouldnt have the same mindset.

[@user-sd1cy1qt5p]

She isn’t a villain, obviously you can choose to look at her from the worst, most warped point of view and see her as a monster, but in my opinion her mentality and belief system is incredibly complex and to ignore the fact that she has had no experience, guidance, and protection from family meaning she had to built herself up, is to ignore how power dynamics between her and the other leaders she interacts with (who’ve had all of this) change

[@jasonjackson33]

If she's not a villain, who is?

[@lindenshepherd6085]

@@jasonjackson33 That's the point. The villain isn't a human character, it's existential threat of the White Walkers and the Long Night.

[@jasonjackson33]

@@lindenshepherd6085 The series has multiple villains. Danny is one of them.

[@greenberry6019]

@@jasonjackson33 there are lots of characters that I consider more villainous than Dany, who in my opinion is not an evil character. For example, Theon, Balon, Euron, Victarion, Roose, Ramsay, Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, Joffrey, Gregor, Sandor, Petyr, Stannis, Qyburn, Gerold, and that's just off the top of my head.

[@jasonjackson33]

@@greenberry6019 Are you going by the book universe or the show?

[@Teratoma..]

I'm glad I'm not the only who was thrown off by the "under 12" bit. Like the 12, 13, and 14 year Olds of Astapor are complicit in slavery somehow

[@whittenaw]

It's interesting that she made that distinction. If it was totally about eliminating threats to her power, surely she would have killed younger children as well. Afterall, a 12 year old will be old enough and strong enough to wield a sword. They'll certainly remember their way of life being slaughtered and their parents being murdered and want revenge. I mean, how old is Arya and she's got a list and she's coming for everyone. Maybe Danny didn't go even younger because she really did think she was doing the morally right thing. But the under 12 thing does change things. Perhaps she didn't go even younger not because she was averse to doing it, but because she didn't want to be perceived in that way... Yet.

[@TheGoodMan211]

in GOT Dany always felt like a white savior self insert to me, and that seemed to justify or excuse any flaws she had by the viewers and by the show, but literally, everyone always suffered the consequences of their flaws but Danny which always bothered me because she was the only character inconsistent in that regard and it felt like she was the only one blessed with invulnerability to the world of GOT's karma and wrath. I felt way more at peace of her character when I found out she was originally written as a complex character even with her own villainous thoughts like the rest of the targeryns and not some ivory haired goddess who makes every man who she came across was obsessed with her, and those who are, are either an act to make her assume loyalty or... Jorah.

[@tj3603]

It's not a crazy idea, Martin loves writing arcs about nice guys being corrupted by power and descending into villainy. He have great series of stories about space ecologist, who have this borderline magic ship full of bio and eco engineering tech, that can terraform planets or destroy life with bioweapons. He starts as selfless person, who use this marvel of technology to save his injured pet cat and ends as cold person with god complex, who decide to sterilize entire planet of people without asking their opinion. So Dany eventually becoming a villains isn't so far fetched. The problem is abruptness of her arc. She speaks and act as if she did not want to be a queen of ashes for eight seasons, but change her mind in half an episode and becomes crazy raging maniac. It's unnatural progression, to rushed.

[@chrisrubin6445]

Actually, Tuf at first was going to force sterilize the entire planet, but in the end he decided not to do it unless he got the planets political leader, Tolly Mune to agree to it, which she did and even intentionally misled her people about it. Still pretty evil, but he let Tolly choose rather than choose himself.

[@tj3603]

@@chrisrubin6445 starve to death or be sterilized isn't much of a choice, concidering he could have given up his ship to save the planet, but instead declared them undeserving of it's power.

[@chrisrubin6445]

@@tj3603 i agree its not much of a choice, but giving the suthlamese the ship is actually the worst take ive ever heard. Its pretty clear based on the text that if Tuf ever did give them the ship, they would immediately use it to genocide all the neighboring planets to make room for their unbridled expansionism.

[@llahnitram7853]

Well I got here quick. Honestly it would just be a great character arc if she's a villain

[@GrimmDelightsDice]

This raises the question if the book unsullied stopped and asked every early teen they were about to kill exactly how old they were.

[@chasx7062]

Do Books and TV shows deal with people going to the loo??? heh

[@liamtreat5194]

@@chasx7062 the ASOIAF books sure do

[@hilaryhongkong]

I´m sorry, but before the final season, there were already tonnes of videos on KZbin talking about the Mad Queen arc. It´s not the TV twist you think it is, and fans complain because of the lack of time on building that arc, not the fact that she became the Mad Queen. It´s not a satisfying plot to say she´s mad because of her genetics and some people around her died within a few days. Blaming it on the genes might as well be the same as not actually having a plot. The justification used here likewise shows an ignorance of history. It´s not just her, in earlier times, almost everywhere in the world, puberty, ie around 12, is the mark of adulthood. Before the Victorian Era, the age of consent was 12. In The Bible, St Mary was likely 12, marrying a 70-something St Joseph. In China, in India and so on, girls were married into another family around that age. The Jewish and Islamic customs dictate that 12 is coming-of-age. Anyone above the age of 12 NOT being a child is a pretty modern concept. Also, people supporting Danerys is the necessarily saying she´s the hero. You can quite obviously support a villain, and you can think a character is cool precisely because they are a mass murderer, if they murder "in style". Who were some of the historical figures many people admire and idolize? Napoleon? Alexander the Great? Chairman Mao? Stalin? Sir Winston Churchill? Atatürk? Genghis Khan? How many people did they kill?

[@khandkersabahatrizvee8417]

There is another scene. When another mereenese child comes to seek justice for the rape and murder of his mother and sisters. The very same murderers now living in luxary in his very own house. Danys justice is to throw some coins at him. And when he refused to accept it the threat of death. That scene alone to me proved she is well and truely her fathers daughter.

[@HillsAliveYT]

And if I recall correctly, the story of this child somewhat parallels Dany's own story, i.e. it is a child of a nobleman whose slaves/subjects rose up and brutalized his family, and he comes and asks her to do something about it, which she really doesn't. It's an interesting insight into how Dany's egocentrism creates a lot of big blind spots.

[@khandkersabahatrizvee8417]

@@HillsAliveYT yup and put it into perspective that the targeryan dynasty ended because the Starks went to seek justice for Leanna and her father killed them for it. She quite literally mirrored her father.

[@kragary]

@@HillsAliveYT Yet that happens during the time in Dany's arc when she is trying very hard to choose peace and good rule, and is acting accordingly. It would not be good or just of her to first enable and even order the slaves to take vengeance on their masters but then punish them for having done so. She does the politically correct thing when she upholds her earlier pardon for all crimes committed during her taking of the city, despite it being a bitter pill to swallow for her. When she chooses fire and blood and dragons at the end of the book that represents her abandoning this politically savvy path, that left her feeling drained, frustrated and unsatisfied, in favour of the path where she gets to do what feels good in the moment. Such as punish those who committed crimes with her blessing when she decides she personally likes their victims better after all, perhaps... But will that be justice?

[@yamatonadeshiko567]

In the books, there's a lot of hints that she has the tendency to be tyrant and a bad ruler.

[@jostockton.]

Not even hints, there's multiple examples of her being a bad ruler. Sometimes it's not her fault and sometimes it is. Like forcing the Meereenese to change harmless parts of their culture for no reason, rejecting useful allies and trusting obviously shady people, letting her temper control her actions

[@mappingshaman5280]

Yeah like how she basically forces a merchant (or former master i can't remember which) into unpaid work and then justifies it by saying he technically has the choice to starve in the streets.

[@anarchakatty5438]

​​​@@mschell8022 yes, exactly like that. Proving that she is not the liberator that she thinks she is. Enslaving only former masters still makes you a slaver. You don't get to choose who deserves to be enslaved and still be a hero lol

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@jostockton. her trusting shady characters makes me wonder if that made viserys more controlling toward her. It’s like every time he turned she was off talking to people that were trying to harm them. Till it all just blended together and he saw everyone like that . I’m not justifying him but trying to understand

[@anarchakatty5438]

@@mschell8022 she could have just killed the slavers, taken their wealth, and instituted an economy where the former slaves were offered wages instead of going in with no plan for the aftermath of her destruction. But more to the point, it's not my job to figure these things out because I'm not the one going around causing wars, starvation and disease en masse. Idk how anyone can look at the consequences of her actions and not see how truly awful and selfish her decisions were, how they were always doomed to failure, and how she's been written this way from the moment she saw the sack of the lazarene and decided it was a price she was willing to pay.

[@lizcollinson2692]

I had no issue with Dany becoming the villain, but the writers sacrificed character development for shock value. Rushing most of her poor decisions once she landed in westeros.

[@georgetapia1010]

That line also stuck out to me because in the Bible, at some point the God of Abraham tells the Israelites to slay all the men but to spare the women and children, and since Hebrew traditional dictates 13 to be the age of adulthood, this is a striking parallel between the two books.

[@M1cr0Man1a]

When you read that passage my jaw dropped because I’m on a storm of swords right now and when I get to that part I doubt I would have even noticed how huge those two words are.

[@rexibhazoboa7097]

About that whole “Under 12” thing you brought up. Dany in the book is a teen herself. About 14 if I’m not mistaken, it would make sense if she doesn’t see people at her age group to be kids or incapable of wrong doings. Edit: oh, you brought this up😂

[@poppag8281]

its interesting how you and David Lightbringer have polar oposite views when it comes to Dany (he thinks she is the hero of the story)

[@t4rg4ryen]

I remember watching GoT when I was younger, 16/17 I'm not completely sure, and my views now are very much different. When I first saw the end of GoT I was mad, I thought I knew exactly how Daenerys was and how she was the 'hero', the one that was supposed to be sitting on the Iron Throne. Now as a 23 yo seeing everything, HotD, GoT and reading the books I can see that she is more of a grey character. The problem with all this is those moments or words that are not put on the show that show us again that no, this isn't a Disney show, there aren't heroes and villains, this is the universe of A song of ice and fire(asoiaf if you will). And for that reason(and this show being politically heavy long intercalated brilliant written dialogues, medieval word with bloody dragons and much more) is why this is one if not one of my favourite universes/show(s)/books. I do love your videos talking about asoiaf, not biased in any way, always presenting reasons and not just "it is this way because it is" or "you should support this faction for the throne" and not giving any reasoning behind it. (Edited a typo)

[@michaeldriggers7681]

"writers do not write heroes who mass murderer children" is usually correct, unless we're talking about the Bible, the Koran, or other religious and mythological texts.

[@mesaana1112]

Nope

[@mappingshaman5280]

I think you're analysing this without putting proper context in. In medieval times age was viewed differently than nowadays. Nobility often got married at very young ages. There was one king who married a 6 year old. This is especially true in Islam, which is what a lot of essosi culture is based off and essos of course is where dany was raised, where Muhammad said that the mark of adulthood, at least for men, was if they had a pube or not (which most 12 year olds would). So its quite possible that dany has been raised to believe that anyone 12 and above is an adult.

[@mappingshaman5280]

@@mschell8022 so you're telling me the unsullied dont parallel the mamluks or the janissaries? You're telling me that Valyrian polygamy isnt similar to islamic polygamy?

[@HillsAliveYT]

Well I literally did talk about this in the video, but I find it baffling that so many people make the argument that the fictional fantasy world context is the only aspect that matters when this is fiction that is written by someone living in our contemporary society and is written for readers in our contemporary society, both of which would obviously clock that killing a 12-year-old for committing a crime that you don't even know they've committed is batshit. I think it is extremely unlikely that GRRM made a point of noting that 13-year-olds were being mass murdered because he wanted everyone to think that killing 13-year-olds is fine, but even if that is his intention, I can determine for myself that that is a morally reprehensible thing to do.

[@scarymonsterzz]

Exactly Dany is a teenage rape survivor with 3 WMD’s surrounded by nothing but abusive cultures and men who for the most part advice her to choose intimidation. She's actually shown a remarkable amount of restraint so far all things considering. To me her biggest flaw is she doesn't follow through on things. She let things fall apart in Astapor when she should have either stuck in place and actually ruled (the responsible "good" thing to do) or literally just burn it all to the ground but of course that wouldn't have been a good look either. Her main flaw is not being able to take full responsibility for all her political fallout.

[@cupcakeordeath]

I thought that adding “under 12” was to prevent those younger than 12 from being slain. Who knows what age a random guy in the Usullied judges to be a child?

[@lxfj2128]

She’s not going to be a villain in the books

[@eric2500]

There is a pattern here - this is a world where children grow up early. Ready or not. Marriage and war and the manipulation of the adults around them - George is examining how this messes with children's lives.

[@yuexin393]

I believe that at this point we need to realize that George RR Martin refuses to have a main character as most of his characters are all in grey area 🤔🤔

[@lidu6363]

I think there are no heroes or villains in ASOIAF, at least among the humans... Just people competing for power.

[@legendsofthebravebard]

I personally LOVE that they made the Girlboss evil. It's a played out trope these days.

[@dennisyoungblood7752]

The turn from heroin to villain for Dany was literally 3 episodes. It was BS. I know she was always quick to choose violence, but in the show it was always righteous violence

[@michaelnkomphela8231]

Lol, she burned people everywhere she went.

[@joyfulgirl91]

Wouldn’t they have just killed every master’s child if she didn’t specify a limit? I don’t think there are any heroes or villains in ASOIAF. Every character is too complicated inside while being constrained and limited by history, environment, and circumstance on the outside. Comparing their relative goodness or badness seems like a misdirect from what the characters have to say to us. How can any monarch be an ultimate good guy in a series written by a modern person who knows there is no decent way to do feudalism? I think Dany’s journey will be more about understanding her place (or not) in prophecy and hard truths about her heritage than being the worst queen. Even if she is the worst that’s not really what matters to the books, nobody expects good rulers in the books. At most they hope to be left alone and allowed to harvest their crops. She and Tyrion will probably get together and make all sorts of wicked ruling decisions that will ultimately not be huge plot points but change how she feels about herself, just like Tyrion’s time as Hand did for him. Ultimately people remember events differently, and he can only go forward with how he chooses to feel about himself. Something has to eventually change her focus from conquering Westeros to whatever role she has to play against the Others, and the red flags in her rule are probably alerting us to red flags in Targaryen propaganda and prophecy.

[@no_nameyouknow]

Hill's alive likes to use modern morality when it is convenient to their point and to use medieval morality when it that is convenient. I enjoy the content and agree with a lot of it, but I have found some incongruity of applying modern morals.

[@joyfulgirl91]

@@no_nameyouknow I just think moral judgments based on any time are a boring way to approach this series when most characters barely have any opportunities to make real choices and every choice locks them down harder. So many of the long deliberations over supposed choices are just the characters working through their own acceptance of what they have to do no matter what, and the options are not real or won’t change the outcomes.

[@lindenshepherd6085]

@@no_nameyouknow I'm glad someone else has noticed this. I like some of their modern takes, but in this instance the fact that they missed so much book evidence to the contrary (and don't seem to notice that they're judging a female child character more harshly than male adult characters who take similar actions) makes me more wary of their future videos. They claimed that the first two seasons of GoT were book-accurate, which is untrue and especially obvious in their handling of Daenarys. When they go through a book and movie scene side by side, they seem to ignore important context for Dany's choices leading up to the Unsullied moment and after.

[@Ella]

For me, I was a teenager when GoT was first coming out but I saw bits and pieces. The end of the show was so awful that the day after my English teacher literally talked about it and a few people in the class had seen it so it became a discussion. Then I got into it and it was quite clear on first watch even that she had a villainous streak. Like I never got the hype for ‘Dany’. The ending still sucks tho 😂

[@itsmainelyyou5541]

I actually think this is a big thing GRRM was the most frustrated about- the loss of an extra season or two to lead show watchers to see the inevitable spiral of absolute power. The journey would have been much better and more interesting by introducing degree. Dany's turn *wasn't* sudden, but it was inconspicuously subtle. It would have been amazing to see the world reaction as viewers to those little niggling seeds of unease, doubt and inexorable dawning dread planted over time.