The Ultimate Wotlk Phase 4 DPS TIER LIST Revealed

Now that we've got a chance to test out ICC in the PTR let's talk about who'll be a top DPS once Wotlk Phase 4 comes out!
Big shoutout to Surveillant and everyone else who made the sim projection sheet possible, their hard work is amazing docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
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Chapters:
0:00 - 1:15 Wotlk Phase 4 changes
1:15 - 1:45 Number 10
1:45 - 2:29 Number 9
2:29 - 2:47 Bonus Spec
2:47 - 3:34 Number 8
3:34 - 4:12 Number 7
4:12 - 4:42 Number 6
4:42 - 5:02 Number 5
5:02 - 5:31 Number 4
5:31 - 6:04 Number 3
6:04 - 6:23 Number 2
6:23 - 7:04 BEST DPS IN ICC
#wotlkclassic #wotlkphase4 #wotlkdpstierlist

[@NOHITJEROME]

Hey, You! Thank you so much for watching!! If you have any questions about anything else wow-related, I'm live every day at 6 pm EST on my twitch channel www.twitch.tv/nohitjerome

[@ryan6881]

Haha I love the random clips in your videos always makes me laugh

[@NOHITJEROME]

thanks ryan, lots of fun to make. hope you are having a great day

[@kevinhardin3494]

Love the video!! What are you using for your raid frames? Love the clean stack!

[@NOHITJEROME]

elvui on ptr, sometimes default frames too

[@kevinhardin3494]

@@NOHITJEROME sounds good thanks man I appreciate it!

[@cyberevolution9625]

I'm rolling a Frost DK at the moment, guess I'll need to learn how to play UH as well, some say even blood will be extremely strong.

[@NOHITJEROME]

frost looks like the play, just wish they could get SM. best scaling DK next phase

[@damienthimonier4900]

Calculated on 180 sec fight ... even with a full BiS raid, I don't think most of the bosses goes down in 3 minutes in 25HM.

[@NOHITJEROME]

I agree, but the data doesn't change that much in the 300sec sims which are also on the sheet. All the fights are longer now and get a lot shorter as the phase goes on. 5min fights will be 4min etc

[@andreaskarlsson5251]

@@NOHITJEROME 1 minute can make a huge difference for cooldown-based classes.

[@NOHITJEROME]

I agree, I complained about this myself. but the numbers don't seem drastically different between 180 and 300 and wouldn't change much to 360 or 420. so many of the cooldowns come back in 3min or less@@andreaskarlsson5251

[@thenikkidixx]

The sims are in full bis. So, this would be late in the phase where the bosses will melt. So it's accurate

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's accurate, I do wish there were sims with "realistic progression" sets. maybe just tier and 271 lk weapons. probably wouldn't take long to make, I might do it@@thenikkidixx

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

Given the way Feral is performing on ptr, and given how well they scale, I can absolutely see them being the "stackable" spec. They're not as hard to play now as people seem to think - since the glyph of Omen. And they're going to pull well ahead of the pack. Add to that their exceptional stackable utility ... that's a stackable spec. They will be the most in demand spec in ICC - I have no doubt.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Definitely not so hard to play anymore, their utility is very stackable, fully agree. But I don't see them stacked. I guess it's mostly buff related, but you never see more than 2 of them

[@leonidasg2257]

Its easier to stack mages if you want to stack something. They probably will be better than feral. Also the more you stack the harder to gear. Early on uh dks and locks will carry the dps, but later other classes pull ahead.

[@NOHITJEROME]

yeah I get that. It just makes me want to consider going mage or aff instead of feral since I want something that gets a raid spot easily

[@Chimmy_36]

blood dps in the ptr is really fun and right now on my blood dps in togc i have been blue parsing and improving every week i get a new piece of gear with armor pen

[@NOHITJEROME]

Do you think blood will be stackable in P4? More UF doesn't sound bad to me

[@Chimmy_36]

In the original wrath blood dps was a beast of a spec to keep up with and right now in my raid group I'm keeping up with two frost dks in 25 ToGC heroic I'm ready to push this spec hard into icc before it gets nerfed hard in cata

[@NOHITJEROME]

sounds like a blast, do you think you can politic your way to SM?@@Chimmy_36

[@Chimmy_36]

The way the guild is saying I'm a solid tie with our ret pally for it since our frost and uh dks are dual weilding and are fury is under us for priority

[@NOHITJEROME]

oh that's excellent, just don't give the UDKs any ideas about SM. they get a dps increase from it too@@Chimmy_36

[@gonzalezruben8503]

I can see 3 fury warriors and 2 ret paladins being viable for speedrunning once they get their gear. Rets pop off easily too on the sims, all they need is tiny abom in a jar and their 2p T10 to gain massive dps increase.

[@NOHITJEROME]

I see fury being stacked like you said, 3 fury seems correct. there are some interesting strategies being mentioned related to LK (which I haven't killed yet, so I can't comment much) - seems fury will 100% be stacked for speedruns eventually, but not at the start. both ret and fury will dominate the meters either way

[@youtubeandchill7497]

Will have to work on my mage 😊

[@NOHITJEROME]

You should, fire mage is perfect. Live life to the fullest. Bandwagon fire mage in the last phase and into cata

[@youtubeandchill7497]

@@NOHITJEROME thank you as always jerome! Love your videos!

[@cyberevolution9625]

I see so many disrespectful comments here. If you dont agree or like what Jerome says, at least keep it clean and civilized.

[@NOHITJEROME]

everyone wants their class to be #1, i get it. the hard part is metholodogy. ranking endgame vs progression is the hardest part. probably need two tier lists honestly

[@cyberevolution9625]

True it's like retri paladins were A or lower tier class, very underrated in Ulduar, and one of our palas was n1 dps in most of the fights, I think it's a mix between on how much knowledge you have about your class and ''everything can work'' @@NOHITJEROME

[@NOHITJEROME]

I'd rather bring a very smart and overperformign ret over a mediocre fury any day or fire mage or aff lock for that matter. player over class always@@cyberevolution9625

[@cyberevolution9625]

Couldnt agree more :).@@NOHITJEROME

[@monopoli107]

Hello 👋 can I ask about assassination rogue, is it bad in this phace? I play assassination since the start of wrath and I am happy about it. How do you thing is gonna perform this phace? Thank you.

[@andromidius]

They are fine, just not S tier anymore. Their scaling isn't as good as Combat.

[@NOHITJEROME]

perfectly viable, can stay assassination and be within a few hundred dps of combat. they are very similar

[@NOHITJEROME]

definitely middle of the pack but not far from combat. maybe within a few hundred DPS at most in full bis@@andromidius

[@RonaSpreader]

does the sim take all factors including the relic the tier and sm proc into the snapshot on gary? 180 sec fight no one will be higher dps than UH and Feral. SO i know this sim is not correct.

[@NOHITJEROME]

hi rona, these take into account pretty much everything. gargoyle is definitely factored in though the SM snapshot I'm not sure about. I will check on the snapshots, I suppose ome question will be whether UDK will be able to proc SM reliably and quickly enough in fights or if that will make the gargoyle usage awkward.

[@yohanncamus8327]

Nice movie, the shadow priest will need lot of gear for dps ? ;)

[@NOHITJEROME]

not too much, t10 prio for sure and a good weapon. the more haste you have the more damage you'll do, but the t10 is the single biggest damage increase

[@yohanncamus8327]

@@NOHITJEROME thx ;)

[@Golemagg]

When is the Google DOC coming out showing us loot prio for ICC?

[@NOHITJEROME]

hi golemagg, my guild will likely make one, i'll keep you updated if they let me share it

[@dbmoose]

Feel like Survival/Spriest is getting slept on a bit. Both classes are low on the dps rankings now primarily due to Twins being a terrible fight for either, which should probably be considered an outlier going into p4. If you exclude Twins, Survival is roughly 5-7 on pretty much every fight, and on release trap launcher/new ammunition should be a significant dps increase. Losing 2-3 seconds of weave time per trap should be ~300+ dps and new ammo sims almost 200 dps, putting them around 4th-5th place on the meters going into p4. Additionally, survival looks to be scaling quite alright into the late game, even before the buff they were simming ahead of/on par with all 3 dk specs in full bis. With MM taking so long to scale and survival being strong in the phase on pre-p4 gear and p4 bis I'd honestly replace MM with Survival and move MM to around 10th place. I can understand Spriest being pretty poor for the first few weeks of prog which is arguably what matters most, but after week 2 (or even week 1 with some lucky voa drops), spriest just replacing their current 4pc (and swapping around for hit) with the new 4 pc with lower item level 258 ---> 251, sims pretty much 1000 dps higher, while most other classes sim lower (exceptions, mage, ret) with just replacing 4 pc from regalia gear. So while many dps will be holding off on their new 2/4 pc while waiting for 264/277 tokens, spriest will jump up the meters about 1000 dps. After week 2, Shadow shouldn't be that far behind Aff locks of comparable gear. Also, if Shadow is really simming 3rd overall on short fights and 4th overall in long fights, surely it deserves to be over other classes that sim lower and require Shadowmourne in their bis which will take many weeks to attain its power (although I suppose shadowmourne is inevitable, whereas phylactory may not be). Shadow > Shadowmourne imo.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Survival is going to jump up with the changes and I definitely see them top 10 on the meters next phase on most fights. Scaling is good, mm is overrated until true bis and suffers from issues like mana. I don't disagree with any of this. Spriest is great, I don't think anyone really has an exact read on how good they will be though. Pserver players say spriest was a beast, the sims say it too, but has anyone seen it yet? It's gear dependent and t10 dependent like you said. Wish we had sims for "bis without LK weapons or Shadowmourne or 277 gear" which is the real best indicator of dps rankings. SM shouldn't play such a big factor, I do agree. One note is that the Spriest sim has had some weird issue (I simmed reign and it had lower DPS one week than some p2 trinkets and then it got fixed) - maybe all the sims are broken in different ways, but noticing a bug like that makes me caution the spriest sims in general.

[@sattes]

Where Ele Shammy, rocking TOGC just behind DKs Fire and Affli

[@skylineOwnZall]

@@NOHITJEROME having played shadow in OG wrath, the sims and pservers are correct, with the 4p t10 they blast. Just wait

[@NOHITJEROME]

ele struggles with the high movement, but they are viable@@sattes

[@NOHITJEROME]

I hope so, I will dual spec shadow on my priest. always a lot of fun@@skylineOwnZall

[@cimarronX]

Assassination rogue is viable as high end DPS? or combat is the only reasonable option?

[@NOHITJEROME]

both are viable, combat more likely to be brought in 10 mans though imo

[@troybarker682]

Is enhancement getting better, worse, or staying the same? Considering switch from tanking. Having the most fun as that, but dont want to gimp guild.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Seems to get slightly worse since the fights have a lot of movement. But still you will have a raid slot, it just doesn't look easy to play

[@ewweg]

There are fights they are really good on, one of them being LK which is the most important.

[@NOHITJEROME]

that is a good point - the relevant fights are sindragosa, putricide, LK. if you do well in those fights, that's what matters. ie resto druid does poorly in some fights, but great on sindragosa/putricide. should count for more imo@@ewweg

[@Cojche]

What happend to Shaman class? :D Mainly ele, how are my Raidens looking?

[@NOHITJEROME]

ele fine, enhance having a rough time. ele top 12 and will be top 5 some fights. just not their best phase

[@arcanistraul6312]

So they nerfed UH DK due to being too op in phase 1, but what about giving it the garg haste snap back a bit further into ICC when it starts to fall off? Maybe with the addition of RS.

[@makitahq]

Just play frost

[@NOHITJEROME]

feels like it'd be too strong, but I do see a lot of UDK advocating for it. feels bad to get nerfed

[@NOHITJEROME]

frost is good but nothing compares to hasted gary dominating the meters by himself@@makitahq

[@makitahq]

@@NOHITJEROME for sure but they were dominating the whole xpac. Dropping off in the last weeks is completely fine. What about other specs, like I'm maining enhance, I cant just switch to another melee spec.

[@NOHITJEROME]

that's a good point. you are being left behind, it's not really fair. not sure why every class but shamans has gotten a buff now@@makitahq

[@dmotbey4402]

Everyone sleeping on the Assass rogues, with their second bis being 10man and only 700ish dps behind full bis they’ll be extremely high well into the phase while people wait/prog for gear and by time they do fall off and everyone is geared the phase will be over.

[@NOHITJEROME]

i will believe it dmotbey, a good assassination is still very relevant in toc as well. i just keep looking at the shadowmourne warriors, the ferals, the ret paladins, fire mages, there's a lot of classes near the front of the line

[@zdubzz1280]

Thanks for the list Jerome! I disagree with a lot but of your picks but I respect your opinion. I am surprised you didn’t mention the Hunter 2 and 4pc tier bonus, since it’s for sure the best set bonus hunter has ever had. It’s even more insane for MM because when you get your tier+trinket procs you can snapshot your bleeds + ss and readiness for an absolutely absurd burst of damage.

[@NOHITJEROME]

great point on hunter 2p/4p. I believe I mentioned it in a previous video and should have had it here. I am not a hunter expert unfortunately and had written them off for p4. But the new buff and recent sims have put them in a very good place. most guilds plan to run 2 hunters now instead of one. do you know why the extra hunter will be brought?

[@Wardbbb]

​@NOHITJEROME alot of ICC boss mechanics are easier with 2 hunters. I would assume that is the reason

[@NOHITJEROME]

that makes sense, it seems like a trend that is going to be a big deal in p4@@Wardbbb

[@Wardbbb]

@NOHITJEROME Yeah, my feral and Hunter since P1 finally get their chance to shine, although my hunter is gonna be a support bitch on alot of fights (maybe trap launcher will make the support a bit easier )

[@zdubzz1280]

@@Wardbbb I think most guilds will run with 2 hunters because otherwise you will be disenchanting alot of loot, and there’s several bosses that it helps to ping pong the ads with distracting shot and other utility stuff. They’re not gonna be stacked like warlocks though

[@BongGoku]

How can you make a DPS list based on simulated DPS, and then not have the order correct? Elemental Shaman (meme of it falling off is true) is still very strong, middle of the pack and very easy to do a high % of simulated DPS compared to other classes.

[@NOHITJEROME]

ele falls off in icc, the sims are solid but not top 8

[@StickyBuns1390]

I feel like feral will reign supreme in ICC, if blizz doesn't adjust/nerf them going into ICC

[@NOHITJEROME]

looks like they'll be top 3, I'm strongly considering playing feral myself on the side. might as well bandwagon it

[@StickyBuns1390]

I cant blame you. Ive been leveling a mage, cause fire does sound kind of fun. Thanks for the upload!@@NOHITJEROME

[@NOHITJEROME]

Fire mage time for me too, feral too, why not everything? Jjust got my warrior to 80. very excited @StickyBuns1390 @@StickyBuns1390

[@Iggybart05]

as someone who's a raid leader AND A FROST DK, i'm actually happy playing that class, to me it's insanely fun. i am the opposite of the saddest plate dps lol. a side benefit to me not needing/wanting frostmourne is that i'm sure a lot of guilds' raid leaders or GMs will be awarding themselves frostmourne and while yeah it's not going to make or break the raid team, it's always nice to be able to assure the guild we're going to do it fairly as our GM mains a lock.

[@NOHITJEROME]

It's awesome that you are enjoying Frost and they do perform very well in ICC. I just wish the talents worked out in a way where you could justify SM. Frost to me is the most quintessential (big word I never use I swear) version of DK. That's the lich king to me, not undead and not blood

[@Iggybart05]

@@NOHITJEROME i agree frost is LK, but honestly i'm happier to give it to my raiders. they put up with me, they deserve it lol

[@NOHITJEROME]

that's a good mindset, I did that as a healer for a long time. it can be very good to be the bigger man and let someone else get the gear sometimes. but I made it a habit to pass loot for too long and that's not good either. you have to stick up for yourself too (though in this case you should be good since it's just 1 item)@@Iggybart05

[@jeffbb2513]

I think frost is going to surprise a lot of people in icc. After 4-6 weeks in and we swap our str gems out for arp they are going to pump.

[@NOHITJEROME]

our unholies are rerolling to other classes or frost, i believe it jeff. but how stackable is frost compared to p1/2/3 unholy?@@jeffbb2513

[@austinsmith8436]

You should really give credit to every one that put this all together on the Google doc that surveillant has published and put a link as well in the description since they did all the work and you showed a screenshot of their doc and probably used all the links on their for your wow sim numbers as well as their ranking of dps on the sims

[@NOHITJEROME]

added a full shoutout, I appreciate the work of surveillant and whitewolf and gutfor and wherefore and frosttbitten and bored and layered and jeb and madmexx and bush and juggs and beanna and naz and louki and teamspeakuser and sino and jvmes and linelo and monsterik and foolipe and ricflair and anthrax and shantie and thad and deance and glade and naphimus (but it's a big shoutout isn't it? :D)

[@austinsmith8436]

@NOHITJEROME I mean in anything else that you would do for this kinda research you would be required to sight your sources of the people that actually put the work in and made it possible for you to make your content

[@NOHITJEROME]

hi austin, it's cited in the description - if there's a better way to cite it in the video I would like to do it in the future if you have ideas@@austinsmith8436

[@austinsmith8436]

@NOHITJEROME no I see that you added it I was just referring to doing it before hand is all

[@NOHITJEROME]

I'll be better with it, hope there's no hard feelings@@austinsmith8436

[@TheStevenTy]

You can kill every boss in icc with paladins alone if you wanted, there has been private servers out for so long you can literally play whatever class you want, I wouldn’t worry about the opinion of others of deterring you away from sticking with your favorite class

[@NOHITJEROME]

Definitely true, also classes only matter the first few weeks. Frankly the focus on endgame dps is silly compared to progression DPS. After week three bring 5 ferals or 6 fire mages, it just doesn't matter nearly as much

[@therealcornholio2583]

Exactly. These lists are tailored for fully optimized and geared guilds that look to min-max everything. Results are wildly different for the more "casual"/average players.

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

I think you're slightly over valuing Fury's on account of their cleave - Ret will probably be ahead of them. Fury will be solid top 5 though. But I'd put Ret and Feral ahead of them. But other than that it's a solid attempt at a tier list.

[@NOHITJEROME]

cleave is where overall comes in, a lot of people have that open the whole raid. I believe fury will be slightly higher than ret on cleave, making a feral druid soon so I can get some experience there since I don't know for sure how well they'll perform on trash packs.

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

@@NOHITJEROMEThanks for the reply - not wrong. Love your work bro :)

[@JC-0108]

@@NOHITJEROME Feral performs well on trash packs......for 15 seconds every 3 minutes when berserk comes off cd. Otherwise swipe is ok, but very energy hungry

[@gonzalezruben8503]

Ret will only outperform fury earlier in the tier because rest scale insanely with 2p tier 10 and tiny abom but the stat jump overall once fully geared benefits fury more, so early tier Ret> Fury, once full or near full bis Fury> Ret.

[@NOHITJEROME]

that seems correct to me. ret is better for prog, fury better for true endgame. if you a re bringing duplicates of either, it'd be the fury imo@@gonzalezruben8503

[@MrKevlarkent]

no mention of assa rogues even though theyre 4th on dmg currently?

[@NOHITJEROME]

#8 overall togc right now on 95th percentile and scale worse than other classes rip

[@theroyalcam]

im already averaging 77-80% crit on my fireballs on my mage, i cant wait to get ICC geared and reach 90%+

[@NOHITJEROME]

how big do you think t10 will be for your dps? i'm very excited

[@Le_Fullmetal]

But is Arcane not superior than fire in late game ?

[@NOHITJEROME]

arcane definitely scales worse in icc@@Le_Fullmetal

[@EnvironNA]

Jerome did we just summon a hunter buff???

[@NOHITJEROME]

yes we did. do you like it? it seems to be a great quality of life buff

[@EnvironNA]

@@NOHITJEROME yep, very minor dps buff but huge to not run around and hope your trap is under boss

[@NOHITJEROME]

you deserve it, i decided not to make a hunter but you are going to have way more fun now my friend

[@EnvironNA]

@@NOHITJEROME oh I sure am!

[@humanthief91]

Iconic yes - challenging no.

[@NOHITJEROME]

If we are talking ICC I just wiped on putricide for like 3 hours so it's iconic //and/ challenging

[@bastimeyer6096]

I want to start wotlk Phase 4 and play frost dk. Is it still viable?

[@NOHITJEROME]

yes very viable, you can catch up insanely fast in p4 with the rdf system and new frozen halls dungeons

[@bastimeyer6096]

@@NOHITJEROME but is Frost dk strong enough?

[@NOHITJEROME]

I'd say so. They scale very well and project to be top tier at the end of p4. Best scaling DK spec and more desirable than blood@@bastimeyer6096

[@kukukachoo419]

Shamans not even making the list... Cries in ele, also cries in alt enhance... See you in icc!

[@NOHITJEROME]

ele is right at the top in toc right now, but the fights don't really seem to favor them in icc. rock solid raid spot for you though

[@TheMessiah1337]

Ele will be fine in ICC, enhance is the unknown question unfortunately =(

[@NOHITJEROME]

enhance needed some of the buffs hunter got. they just have a rough go of it in icc@@TheMessiah1337

[@TheMessiah1337]

@@NOHITJEROME Yea there is a few things they could do that wouldnt make it ridic like the druid buffs lol

[@MrDrunkeNN]

@@NOHITJEROMEbasicly a minor Glyph where your fire Nova is Bader on your characters Position ( like whirlwind) other than the Fire Totem

[@ColCoal]

2:30 BASED!!!!!!!!!

[@NOHITJEROME]

blood dk propaganda is working on me

[@Le_Fullmetal]

What is next ? Cata Classic ? Wow Vanilla + ?

[@NOHITJEROME]

I think both, but neither is confirmed yet. What do you think?

[@Le_Fullmetal]

I think Cata will comes for sûre, but i dunno for Vanilla+.. i want both, but i'm craving Vanilla+ and fresh servers@@NOHITJEROME

[@NOHITJEROME]

I want both too, let's get it. Vanilla fresh should be in nov or dec imo@@Le_Fullmetal

[@alexmanuelsommer]

Cant take this serious because unholy dk is in this rating ... frost and blood both are stronger in icc than uh

[@NOHITJEROME]

yes in the final stages UDK is bad, but every guild is stacking them right now. it's not a spec that goes away for the next 2 months

[@EB-bl6cc]

for ICC you have to look at the beginning and middle, not at the very end where everyone is BIS lol. Unholy is better than frost/blood for the majority of ICC, and will still beat those specs on cleave fights even in BIS gear.

[@NOHITJEROME]

you are right, I focused too much on the endgame. clearing the bosses the first time (and subsequent 10 times) will be what matters. that puts unholy much higher than previously anticipated@@EB-bl6cc

[@alexmanuelsommer]

Just wrong - blood dk just need 14 days to raise in dps ranking to the top because of t-set you can get full with frost emblems

[@frequentsee3815]

What race for fury warriors? Horde

[@NOHITJEROME]

troll war bis horde

[@rikyx8011]

Started as frost Dk, ill die as a frost Dk no matter what. it's still good and fun, If well played can outperform the average UDK player.

[@NOHITJEROME]

how did frost feel at launch? i'm surprised you didn't go for the gary angle at least for a few months

[@MrDrunkeNN]

You will be Fine as Frost , since you will get rather easy 277 weapons from saurfang with insane stats, Running Double Sword will make you resch rhe caps easy af

[@NOHITJEROME]

that's a good point, progression will likely get stuck on putricide/blood queen. saurfang farm on heroic should be doable week one@@MrDrunkeNN

[@muhammadmuttaki4975]

Did you run these numbers yourself? They seem very wrong.

[@NOHITJEROME]

these are based on sims which are not all entirely right but are relatively close. you can see the full sheet here docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQTLPd3Wkmeb-GEjMBAOXmxX5bcnAw6aKYDnpfXFvYTI7Ni-lEjKxm52mYujPR-AeiOGEv0xaJfPukq/pubhtml#

[@aurawolf664]

shadow priest hype shadow priest hype

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's time, especially with the new feral nerf. spriest will blast

[@uwutmate2164]

Feral druid will be #1, all the giga sweat guilds who have been doing private realms are all furiously levelling ferals.

[@NOHITJEROME]

I just don't see them being that stackable. I'd love to see many more than 2 of them in raids, but it seems unrealistic. They aren't like UDK where you can stack 5-6 of them

[@uwutmate2164]

they are better then udks, they have more single target have insane aoe damage and synergise insanely well with fire mages. with innervates atleast in the speed run scene. Maybe the 95 and below percentiles might have warriors ahead, but i highly doubt it at the top end.@@NOHITJEROME

[@NOHITJEROME]

I like feral myself I just don't see them stacked. feels like most icc prog guilds are stacking either aff or udk@@uwutmate2164

[@Jombozeus]

​@@NOHITJEROMEI just saw Maximum Effort X on Firemaw hiring two feral druids for their Speedrun team. So priv server andys know something we don't.

[@lawless7859]

Locks > Mages. Mages just randomly die.

[@NOHITJEROME]

mages scale be tter with full bis but i do agree for prog. nobody is stacking mages for prog

[@lawless7859]

@@NOHITJEROME I think dmg wise its no question, but mages just die. Randomly. You'll see them flop over. We still stack em, but they always die at leat 1 here or there LOL

[@NOHITJEROME]

enhance shamans are even worse, it's a rough life@@lawless7859

[@lawless7859]

@@NOHITJEROME 100% A FACT lol

[@Rullehjem]

Hey, where's enhancement shaman? Oh right, they're dead on the floor.

[@NOHITJEROME]

yes dead on the floor, same survivability as a mage except they are melee range

[@frederikkrog6679]

Im crying on my main enhance… 😢😢

[@TheMessiah1337]

I'm copium for some hopeful buffs to enhance lmao

[@NOHITJEROME]

enhance buffs are the last part of the buff train, you deserve it. but they may have forgotten about you

[@NOHITJEROME]

you deserve a buff now, hunters got theirs, ferals, even the weaker healers

[@Zenrikku77]

It's ok u still have the raids Blood Lust. Shaman are a rare breed these days

[@Zenrikku77]

Just because a class bis is shadowmourn doesn't mean the players that play them will aquire a shadowmourne. Its going to be a complete crap show with everyone either HR'ed them or be a ridiculous price for the shards. Most will only have their shadow edge in the bag come cata classic.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Best play is to make a normal group and farm normal bosses. Forget the heroic lifestyle, even with bis gear fights like putricide are too complicated mechanically for pugs. (not dps checks or anything, just a lot of mechanics) Make normal grp -> reserve shards -> profit

[@CulturedHeaven]

What is the best pve class ?

[@NOHITJEROME]

best in wrath right now is ret, they are the most desirable. at least that's how my raids are

[@CulturedHeaven]

@@NOHITJEROME anything other than this ?😅

[@withered962]

at least resto druids can shine here in this raid finally. resto shaman pretty much falls off

[@NOHITJEROME]

rdruid having an absolute blast. this is their phase, it's amazing

[@withered962]

@@NOHITJEROME for sure, sindy, blood queen, festergut, putricide, rdruid feels more valuable for sure. glad I proved myself early on as a good healer in naxx/ulduar to assure my spot for ICC with my guild. PTR has been very very fun for me though. a lot of "i told you so" when the fights are over and I end up either 1st or 2nd on the fights.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Yep I'm in the same place. Old guard is flaming druid still and gatekeeping them, but I believe in druid. Maybe by the end of P4 they will be outscaled by hpriest/shaman but I am not getting touched by either of them right now.@@withered962

[@withered962]

@@NOHITJEROME they're not getting outscaled because druid scales as well, i think we sit at the highest healing power ingame since we don't need much from CF build (i haven't seen a need for thicc heals since it's only on a situational fight that you'd use it) resto is just broken right now, with a fight like blood queen or sindy I can see trauma being better if it really is busted like they say proccing off itself.

[@andreasanmarco5655]

where's balance druid in the list :(

[@NOHITJEROME]

they don't do that poorly in icc it's just not their raid. lot of movement, not great when you go to plant and cast starfires

[@wiipitsa]

Dont retris use 2x T9 and 2x T10 ?

[@NOHITJEROME]

believe it's 4x 10, is there info anywhere on why to run the split set?

[@doncorleone1720]

In progress

[@icebox1954]

Damn, I didn't think Combat rogues would be this bad. Sad times ahead then.

[@DWAIBud]

Lol combat rogue is one of the best DPS classes in ICC. A full BiS combat rogue often finds them self in the top 5 with insane burst damage. Sims are not everything and don’t account for everything. They paint potential with a perfect fight so it’s really not realistic.

[@icebox1954]

@@DWAIBud Full BiS doesn't matter at all. By the time you have it the expansion is already over. Only progression DPS matters and it seems a lot worse currently. I'll still raid on my Combat rogue but I might have to also play an alt for Shadowmourne class.

[@NOHITJEROME]

they perform better than the sims, I talked to simonize about it. some sims are designed for perfect accuracy and some are designed for maximum damage. comparing them is not always fair. combat is top 6 or 7 for most of the phase

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's true, also combat feels like it's closer to the true sim damage than most classes like MM hunter where the reality is much worse than expected. @@DWAIBud

[@NOHITJEROME]

That's the problem with all the sims, we need sims for the middle of the phase. The progression stages are what matters. I want to perform as well as possible in the first weeks

[@klosar7321]

the only reason mage is 3rd is jaraxx and why tf would i get squish mage when i can add another aff lock that carry execute got self heal and on top of all that shows mid finger to defile and grab on lk lmfao i see you took all aspects in to consideration like you said at start aff nr1 and if hunter can disengage grab hes nr2 till hard farm.

[@smmwise]

Well in LK, u dont get the full execution phase and defiles are a gift for fmage too. The only real advantage are valkyrs but they are cleaved so not that big of a difference having two instead of 3 because with propper positioning they all die at the same time anyways

[@NOHITJEROME]

on progression i'd rather have more aff locks, in the endgame (on farm) it's fire mage by a good margin. . fire mage outscales aff within a month or two.

[@NOHITJEROME]

long execution phases will be great for aff but fire will outscale them within a few months. question is when that is exactly: i'd assume it's when they get t10@@smmwise

[@plamenpenev8175]

actualy like if ur half deacent at pve and you have like half decent group ur gonna run tru icc like its fckin dungeon

[@NOHITJEROME]

normal mode I agree, but heroics are extremely hard. nobody has cleared LK yet heroic on ptr

[@niksmo1682]

Shadow priests will top with 4 set.

[@NOHITJEROME]

top 3 100%, also they will perform closer to their sim values than most specs since they are ranged and are way less affected by movement than something like a boomkin

[@fdajax5107]

simple remove the damage penalty on titan's grip UNLEASH ME

[@anthonydominguez4744]

You get shadowmourne that’s all you need

[@NOHITJEROME]

agreed you should be doing 25k damage per second

[@NOHITJEROME]

that's like saying you get cake that's all you need, but we also need icecream

[@JesseYeakle]

lmfao i've been blood dps this whole expansion and NOW people are starting to recognize it only after people calling it a meme spec for 3 phases... yall are meta thirsty

[@NOHITJEROME]

yes we are, I can respect you for being on it early, but I've also noticed being on the class day 1 does not pay off. bandwagon always works. warrior p4, fire p4, feral, i'm on the bandwagon

[@tf9206]

AKSHUALLY

[@NOHITJEROME]

actually the #1 dps is affliction lock, it always is rip

[@Zeth408]

what about assass rogue?

[@icebox1954]

Just like the name suggests twice it's ass. Not really but not top.

[@NOHITJEROME]

they sim lower than combat and scale slightly worse iirc. currently combat outdpses assassination on the logs by a few hundred

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's performing worse than combat right now and scales worse (from what I understand) - but it's pretty marginal differences

[@DocSherif]

Fire mage > warfury> Rogcombat > hunter marksman

[@NOHITJEROME]

by the end of the phase I'd believe that. early on it looks like affliction and unholy carry. I'm more focused on progression right now and wish I had angled the video that way. progression feels like what's most important currently

[@MrElprofecional]

ToC = Trial of the Champion. ToGC = Trial of the Grand Crusader. Get it right muhfuggah... sheeit...... sheeit.

[@NOHITJEROME]

nm trial is technically toc too - they should have named the dungeon and raid differently rip

[@Ktisgone]

The warrior cope. They will be dog shit again until they are full bis. Also mages early on will prove to be liabilities in most raids. They are still by far the squishiest dps and this phase has a lot of out going damage. Once again warlocks and dks will be carrying your raid to progression kills.

[@NOHITJEROME]

aff lock and dk will carry progression. endgame mages/warriors will carry. i think both are true. most would prefer to be bis in the endgame though

[@EnProto]

@@NOHITJEROME idk i kinda disagree with this statement. I think prog is more interesting, and with 10.2 coming, as well as classic HC i dont think as many people will be farming LK as you might think

[@NOHITJEROME]

@@EnProto prog is interesting, but think about this: all the locks right now carrying prog will be less desirable in a few weeks. then they will be replaced by mages. excitement has peaked and will drop over time, but i'd rather be desirable for 8 weeks (Even with lowering excitement) than for the first 2-3 weeks only. icc is designed to have legs, it's not like togc where the hype is dead in a week. blizzcon stuff will definitely move the hype away though I agree

[@handyranks6407]

Still sleeping on Fury I see 😂😂😂

[@NOHITJEROME]

fury is top 3 but they have to get gear first. it's not going to be easy for them to get to that point

[@handyranks6407]

Right! We will get there same goes for all other classes lol

[@NOHITJEROME]

in a top guild gearing won't be so rough, but in many guilds i don't even think LK normal dies week one. maybe i'm overthinking it

[@vladislavvergilov4358]

1st part - so the data is very floed 2 about joining community - do u got cute girls there ? for feral druid u are ider on top or bottom depending on gear or skill but there is no middle ground fire mages are good but they can beat arcane mages on very few fights thats PP LK and helion but guess what arcane mage after 6.3k dominates full bis 6.6k fire mage so fire mages can put a pyro at there ass :D any time

[@NOHITJEROME]

i know the data has been updated a lot since this video, I likely need an update. 2 - i dont know the data, but you can probably find lots of potential dating partners watching this channel. it hasnt helped me at all yet, but you will be luckier. i actually have yet to see a meter topping feral, it's mostly an on paper spec right now. will see in p4 how they actually perform compared to sims. i dont think i'll be seeing any arcane mages though, but we will see :D

[@fuzzelump3]

Blood dk will play its swan song in ICC. Excited to see it grow into a great dps class...but if you are going to cata, kiss it goodbye.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Does blood ever make a comeback in mop/wod? Or is it just dead after wotlk

[@fuzzelump3]

@NOHITJEROME no sir. Blood takes over as the tru DK tanking spec. Everything blood related shifts to tanking when cata pre patch drops. Good news. Bears and dks are kings of tanking in cata. The rest get honorable mention as being good too but druids and blood dk is on top

[@arcito5288]

shadow priests #1 dps, remember my words :"), and warlocks always were mid dps in end game, everything rest is kinda true

[@NOHITJEROME]

spriest will top some fights. feel like they'll look bad on overall due to weaker trash damage. unless spriest does a lot better on trash than i expected

[@seanj5249]

@@NOHITJEROME Have you never heard of mind sear?

[@brad1426]

Damn, balance druid not even making the list lmao At least resto pops off, I currently swap between the 2 for my guild anyway, and I prefer healing lol.

[@NOHITJEROME]

balance has some good uses like saurfang for the pushback, I think most guilds will always run 1, maybe even 2 boomkins. resto is so good now too that you always have a raid spot either way

[@Blubking1]

While your #1 being Fire Mage might be true in terms of raw dps in full bis, I don't think it gives an overall picture. (In fact, I'm not even that sure if Fire mage is #1 in ICC with all the melee stacking + shadowmourne but that has to be seen) Currently, Fire mage is being hard carried by Jaraxxus in ToGC. If you extract Jaraxxus from the data, Fire mage is still an upper spec, but on par with the other "middle" specs. Affliction Warlock is beating Fire Mage on every other boss. Now the question is what is this Tier-list about. Is it about progression? It seems so because that's what the introduction was about. You don't really bench people post-progression. So the points are: - During early ICC, Fire Mage will not beat Warlock. Not even close. Also note that Fire Mage will have massive Mana problems compared to Warlocks. - Fire Mage is still the squishiest spec in the entire game and just dies from looking at a boss - Warlock brings much more utility (soulstone, healthstone) From the PTR testing I did and from what I have seen on streams, there is no guild that is stacking Fire Mages for progression. Just warlocks and DKs. Besides, stacking Fire Mage isn't the best idea anyways because one ability could nuke the entire Mage camp while the Warlock just sits there and laughs next to you. Thanks for the reading!

[@NOHITJEROME]

Lots of good points here, I agree with them. Endgame fire mage does more damage. Progression aff will be better early and more stackable. Both things are true. It's an awkward position because people want to know the best spec for the phase but progression is the only time it really matters. The main question will be how soon fire outperforms aff (is it purely when they get t10?) and we will start to see aff get replaced within a month or two

[@Blubking1]

@@NOHITJEROME you are absolutely right and fire really needs to get some high end pieces to shine. Down the line, one month or two later there is a high chance fire is above affli but the real question is are guilds still progressing 2 months into the tier

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's a very good point. I do think LK will be alive in 2 months for most guilds on heroic. but aff will get them there in the first place@@Blubking1

[@icebox1954]

@@Blubking1 If they ever make a fresh WoTLK Classic again I'm rolling Affliction warlock. It's the best spec in every phase so unfair.

[@Blubking1]

@@icebox1954 you do you

[@PartyProDJsFL]

Damn no Boomkin love ;(

[@NOHITJEROME]

boomkin has its place, i'm running boomkin on saurfang and it's great for pushing back the adds. boomkin also brings inv/battle rez to the table which are both crucial. 1-2 boomkins are a mainstay in progression imo

[@guilhermemateuspintos6403]

What about healers??

[@NOHITJEROME]

Haven't done enough ICC ptr to say yet but hpal disc sham druid holy seems like the current. holy might be better than rdruid, but they all got nice buffs recently and hpal didn't get buffed. resto druid feels WAY better now

[@jakeech2012]

A well geared fury will destroy on cleave and will still be the highest dps on single target in icc even without shadowmourne

[@uwutmate2164]

Fury is going to be dumpsterd by feral druids.

[@andromidius]

Its still shocking how Fury came out of nowhere with their pumping. They were garbage before, then suddenly its right to the top. I guess they hit their ArP caps and now are scaling to the moon. Even now they are fiving Fire Mages a run for their money with how much damage they can deal consistently.

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's true, they will top the overall meters. the other specs at the top overall will be fire and ret (conveniently the other competition for SM) - fury cleave is absolutely insane

[@NOHITJEROME]

I don't think so, at least not on overall. Fury is just a monster@@uwutmate2164

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's pretty much arp, they have less strength next phase than they do now. and shadowmourne is just the biggest possible upgrade@@andromidius

[@Joshxoxo38]

combat not being top 5 is kap and assasin not being top 10 is kap

[@NOHITJEROME]

sims just don't love combat but I'm ready to be surprised

[@Sam-nq6dw]

You're wrong about assassanation rogue not being in the top 10 watch it'll be the suprise #1

[@NOHITJEROME]

What am I missing with it? they perform worse than combat in logs at the moment and combat scales better afaik

[@D3god]

Top players will do well in ferals, ret's and dk's, but most will get to face the fact that Assa is just too consistent and easy dps that it will out dps other

[@NOHITJEROME]

assassination will do well, but the odds are against them. feels like a ranged dominant raid to me other than the shadowmourne users /feral etc@@D3god

[@D3god]

We see, but I think the odds are WITH assa since truly is easy, consistent dps with high burst and extreme aoe in large packs. The fact you don't have to compete for the real high-end stuff should make it pop even more.@@NOHITJEROME

[@bradlowder9926]

Blood dps is out doing unholy in ptr with the bug fixes to dancing rune. Plus the gear and tier is better for blood and unholys best tier is togc tier. Blood dps has been the top in all my ptr runs. A few of them we’re doing 20-26k on most fights dwarfing the unholy dmg I’m my groups of 12-15k

[@NOHITJEROME]

I'll hit ptr soon and verify this for myself. If blood really is topping the meters they probably need to start tracking UF properly and giving it to the ferals etc. It's a nice boost for now but 26k damage doesn't make sense

[@andromidius]

My raid spot is rock solid safe (if anything... too safe, I'm pretty much required every raid so me having nights off isn't easy). Why? I'm the only Hunter the guild has managed to retain the whole expansion. Everyone else who played Hunter in TBC rerolled. All the trials we've tried out disappeared the moment they were given any gear. I'm reliable, competent enough, funny on Comms but know when to shut up, don't have outbursts at other raiders (though I will occasionally complain about raid mechanics at times and make a show of being sad when I have to do a job that hurts my DPS - though don't actually care if the boss goes down). Quite why no other Hunter has done what I do is a mystery. I guess I should be happy.

[@NOHITJEROME]

hunters are becoming popular in top guilds now. lot of guilds are planning to add a second one now. I'm not versed enough with hunter to know the exact reason, any idea why? I'd like to understand why they are starting to get stacked in ICC

[@juniorfan7a]

Guess you are talented enough to find a job then.

[@NOHITJEROME]

I guess everyone wants to do flavor of the month classes, sticking with one is the key to true job security@@juniorfan7a

[@juniorfan7a]

@@NOHITJEROME Its Very good that you always reply to every comment on your vídeos Man, i respect you for that and i appreciate the reply.

[@NOHITJEROME]

Thank you Juniorfan, I hope you have an excellent day. It is late, I must sleep.@@juniorfan7a

[@Meatchop]

fury is too high on the list

[@NOHITJEROME]

with endgame bis they just scale insanely well. they'll be near the top on overall always due to cleave too

[@markiemark2498]

Bro you simmed unholy with the ICC tier but we don't use it

[@RonaSpreader]

we will swap to heroic version.

[@NOHITJEROME]

t10 is better in most fights, there are some really good warmane posts about it

[@NOHITJEROME]

t10 is definitely better in many situations, but you keep both

[@Redouan13]

Almost all your tierlist prediction have been wrong in whole of wrath it is that your videoeditor makes it entertaining and your other videos are funny to watch, but your tierlists are garbage 😂

[@NOHITJEROME]

hi redouan, I'm basing this off sims which are (mostly) accurate and my own experience. what top 3 would you have instead? I could see any combination of aff/fire/fury

[@funchicoo]

Boomies ftw

[@NOHITJEROME]

they are not going to have a lot of fun in icc as fun as the spec is. so much movement in the fights, playing boomkin on putricide feels like a nightmare

[@cartmansexpervillage]

first

[@NOHITJEROME]

how does it feel being first? congratulations

[@vuphan138]

You can’t really make a tier list based on just the sim but not actual data. This list is inaccurate

[@NOHITJEROME]

it's true but we don't have the actual data yet, when we have it there will be more tier lists

[@WolfZet]

@@NOHITJEROME fury will be on top dps when getting their gear and with good raid comp. also combat is better than uhdk and ret

[@manaosconuva]

​@@WolfZetblood dps will clap warrior in dps just wait, even rn it's an insane dps

[@danmoore1427]

Your mom's inaccurate

[@danmoore1427]

​@@WolfZetpsh

[@tomwhite7982]

Shameless self promotion.

[@NOHITJEROME]

hi tom, im open to it, what do you want to promote?

[@MrFuryz]

Blood DK with UHF is a meme... Feral Fury and Ret perform better with UHF and should be given the buff over the memer blood dk dps that does nada outside of their CDs I get looking for content but don't spread a meme spec as spec to 'look out for' lol

[@NOHITJEROME]

blood getting UHF when they put it on feral is pretty silly I agree. you don't give PI damage to the priest. blood isn't top 10, I just wanted to mention it for SM. top 15 though

[@jaredmcconnell8779]

you're off the goop, ret is the second worst UF target behind enhance. Ret does 38% physical damage in full ICC bis. UF also doens't stack with deathwish, making it extremely awkward to use on fury

[@NOHITJEROME]

feral is the #1 target for sure, it just shouldn't give the damage to the DK. makes more sense to give it to the recipient