THE UNSEEN DANGERS OF TOP DOWN MIXING!

[@joelwanasekurm]

LEARN TO MIX: nailthemix.com/

[@Derpadeedooda]

KZbin engineers "Here's why you should mix top down" Two weeks later... "Here's why you shouldn't mix top down"

[@timinglismusic6707]

What about a hybrid, whereby your "top" starts at the bus level rather than the mix-bus level. I'm working with a pro engineer at the moment who hadn't heard the phrase "Top-down mixing" but when I explained it as the hybrid I just mentioned showed me his board and the busses from Pro Tools and how he starts at the bus level for a broad sweep before moving to the individual channels, if needed. He doesn't do much to the mix-bus, but he does a fair bit of work on the busses themselves.

[@sigil_theband1953]

I learned "Top Down Mixing" from a pro mixer friend - it instantly moved made my mixes WAY better, and mixed quicker. Eight different plugins on he mix buss - that was part of my sound. I continued to get better, but I never felt my mixes were what the COULD be - I was brainwashed into believing top down mixing was "the way". Recently, just for kicks, I decided to take everything off my mix buss after watching another pro mixer on KZbin saying NOT to do top down mixing - except for just light compression to glue the track together. So I tried it. My VERY FIRST mix was INCREDIBLE after abandoning top down mixing - clear, punchy - just sounded great. I believe top down mixing was good while I was developing my ears for mixing, but that is no longer what I will be doing - you are right, top down mixing limits your mix because you've baked your sound into the mix already, and the way less that can be done in mastering to really polish off the mix.

[@RC_991]

I feel like if you are using stuff on the mixbus, first turn it all off and get the mix sounding as good as possible without it and then add the saturator/tape/compressor/limiter back in at an appropriate level.

[@duggermountainmusic5038]

Here's my two cents from 50 years of mixing. Start in Mono and achieve separation through eq. Once that sounds good you can move to stereo and begin to add processing to individual channels. Nothing on the 2 bus until I achieve a great mix. Then maybe a SSL compressor and possibly some M-S eq. Sonic quality and loudness is in the individual processing, NOT on the 2 bus, EVER.

[@jakobole]

Yes - I never understood why you'd have something on the 2-bus at the start of a session - I mean, wtf? You'll then have this extra variable that you'd have to check all the time, and even small moves on a fader, can ruin the comp-setting that was good 10 minutes ago.....I'd lose my mind. Secondly, if a lot has to be done on the 2-bus/in mastering, something in the mix needs to change.

[@brianknight8195]

Bingo.

[@DarkTrapStudio]

Top down mixing is great but this chain was nonsense

[@synapticschism]

This video is giving me a lot to think about. I've bottom-up mix for years and changed sometime ago and loved the results. Your point about not being stuck in one perspective alone is really good. I'm currently releasing a series of orchestral mixing and I will definitely follow it up with a top-down vs bottom-up perspective. Thanks for the video dude, first time here and I'm subscribing and looking forward for more stuff like this!

[@GrumpyGr3g]

I watched your videos on speedrun mixing, I think this is very interesting. Getting into focus on finding issues and stuff on a mix is very strong, helped me a ton lately getting more focus and going straight to the essential. I still put a limiter on my master bus, limiting maximum 0.2dB of GR, during "speed run" (doing basic eq move, volume, maybe some volume automations) and once i'm done speed runing, I go in depth mixing. I only put mix bus compression, slight saturation and stuff on the master bus once I think my mix is finished. I do it because this help me to achieve the sound I want. But so nice you tell why you go back. That's, I assume, what all top mixers are going into someday, and that's why we never stop evolving.

[@joelwanasekurm]

Awesome to hear your experience with it.

[@miguelmikemigs]

I follow a couple of other mixer/engineers and don't get me wrong their insights are invaluable and have helped me a lot. But I never seemed to like their mixes(the actual output) because i hear the top-down mixing way too much rather. As a listener I hate it when I can't connect to a song because something about the production is too in the way. And it's exactly like you said: plasticy transients, and eq that sounds too post compression instead of pre compression, saturation that feels like it's smearing the song in a way that lacks finesse. Your mixes on the other hand sound like the records I am to get my mixes to be on a level with! Thanks for this tip! I was kinda feeling this for a while and you confirmed it for me.

[@tiadiad]

Honestly, in my experience, you get the best results with a hybrid of the two approaches. Mixing track by track gives you the most control over the mix as you can adjust all of the tracks separately to fit the big picture. Bus processing brings a unifying sound to the entire mix, which is commonly referred to as “glue”. Both have a place. Say if there is too much mud in the mix, you can either dip out those frequencies on a bus, but that means you are applying the dip to every track which is going to that bus. Or you can find the individual tracks which are bringing in the mud, and address it on a track by track basis. Track by track is a more surgical approach, and generally gives better results. It is of course more time consuming, which is why a lot of people rely on the top down thing. At the same time applying a little bit of an EQ, compression, saturation, etc. on a bus can help the mix sound more unified and “glued”. I think for anyone who is learning how to mix, best advice would be to start with an empty stereo bus, nothing on it. Not even a limiter. And try and get the best mix you can possibly get with just the track by track approach. It’s also a great way to learn to really work with dynamics and tone. If you are able to get a great sounding mix, and have it be nice and loud, but also dynamic, without even a limiter on the stereo bus, then you’re crossing into the “pro” territory.

[@charliereeves2146]

I think i am getting to a point where which EQ i use or what compression technique i use is starting to become irrelevant... Depth, movement and emotional impact are the names of the game and I'm starting to understand that through time and effort, also through the help of people like you and other incredible mixers. All that to say i have been using a much lighter topdown mix bus recently and have been getting better results ! So yeah i think there is some truth to this !

[@WillyJunior]

Yes! Same with fancy plugins. I find myself using basic plugins way more lately

[@CamilloAlchimist]

There came a point in my production, where I realised, that I CAN hear (now), what I'm doing. Since I really concentrated and made like one decent mix, I learnt to trust myself. Now the goosebumps and headboggles make me find my mix.

[@bradashlock]

Recently I was struggling with my usual too down mixing because my drums and bass were just lacking the punch I was after and it was so much work to seperate them, get them crisp again - and out of frustration I just turned everything off and the tracks came back to life. Top down can give great results but sometimes creates dynamic issues you’ve highlighted. Great video!

[@chadmichael_]

"Beat me up, destroy me" hahaha. Same! I still remember all the advice you gave me and it really really made me think so much more deeply about what it was that I was doing and just because of that one conversation I have been able to break through so many invisible walls in my thinking and discover so much more logic and strategy that would have taken me so much longer to unearth. I love those kinds of conversations and its really the best way to get better is to have someone better than you be brutally honest and constructive.

[@PaulWegmann]

I think the main problem is not top-to-down or the inverse, but doing things by default. I still believe in the power of volume faders.

[@reallyniceaudio]

So true!! This guys ‘2 bus’ junk was embarrassing to see. I think people use top down mixing as a crutch.

[@Themosaicsound]

And no presets

[@CamilloAlchimist]

My mixing philosophy is a combination of two - two questions: Where to listen for what and where to touch and how. with other words: learn about what frequencies sound how. Also learn about how different frequencies relate to each other. For example ~400hz and ~2.8 khz are kinda connected. If You want your voice to shine through, sometimes it's not about pushing the highs, but taking the lows (even somewhere else might be). So you want to know "how special frequencies sound" and how sounds behave in a frequency spectrum in general. But you also want to know about the relationships different frequencies have with each other further down the chain. This really made mixing to a managable task, where it before mostly felt like casting useless spells.

[@icarusi]

I tried adding microdynamics, by adding random level modulation to certain tracks on a busy mix. Each of the treated tracks randomly 'surfaced'. After listening a few times I tweaked the modulations, so certain tracks only dominated at certain specific points, but let the rest stay random, but not too noticeable to be obvious what was being done.

[@randylodder1265]

Great video..... I've been down so many rabbit holes learning this craft. What's been working well for me..... the only top down I do is add an EQ. After I balance the tracks I use the EQ to cut out muddiness...... that's it. Then I go to individual tracks for the sweetening. Once I get the tracks the best I can then I'll go back to the two bus EQ and do some final tweaking.

[@ingver13]

Totally makes sense. Also, if you saturate let's say two sine waves on a mix bus (just as an experiment), or saturate them individually, the outcomes will be fundamentally different. Mixing tracks separately sometimes creates much cleaner mixes.

[@huberttorzewski]

Agree 100%. The less you put on your mix bus the better is the final sound after the mastering. Solve all your eq, levels and dynamics issues on the individual channels and then groups. Great video

[@heinrichsmit7045]

Thanks for this, this is groundbreaking! Appreciate you sharing this.

[@Zisch2]

Amen to that. Had the same experience. One should really think about what to put on the mix bus and when to put it there. Working on the track by track level as hard as you can first brings better results every time. I think the problem is that many mixers are insecure at heart and want to feel good about what they are doing as fast as possible. The worst plug ins in my opinion are those simple "bettermakers" like God particle, Gullfoss, these all-in-one Mix Bus plug ins and everything with multiband processing.

[@joshbrannelly4039]

Yeah, I agree to a point. I think my style is more of a hybrid, Mainly because I learned mix on protools Le systems that meant you had limited processing power, so stereo processing was always better as far as how much cpu you had available, but now with better computers, I still do eq/comp saturation on master and get more specific on individual guitars/vocals, and very hybrid on drums, almost stem mastering a drum bus. At the end of the day, whatever works for you, and whatever turns out killer tracks

[@tomkogstad7773]

Thanks for insights. I come from an era that taught us to make each track ready before hitting the 2 track I admit these days I have Ozone on the MB and perhaps an additional Mastering EQ. Al Schmidt managed with only a limiter. Top down for me is usually a rough mix. Thanks Joel!

[@BenedictRoffMarsh]

Mixing into compressors, limiters etc was always strongly advised against in the 80s & 90s when I was coming up. I have always said this too - usually to howls of rage from people with no/poor work to show. That it became a popular approach never made sense as the reasons given in the 70s etc were solid and unchanged. Mixing into processing, esp multi-band shizz, means that a true balance is never learned/achieved. The test is that if you turn off the bus "junk" and your mix balance explodes, there was never a real mix. Imagine If you didn't rush into sidestep fripperies like Top Drown, Multi-Bland, Paradiddle, Ball & Chain... and instead truly grokked the basics - surely you would get to where you are capable of getting sooner. Mixing is never a list of technical techniques. Mixing is an Artform as much as painting, guitaring, rally driving etc. :-)

[@mixedbypillz]

Actually going through this at the moment just changed my process starting without anything in my mixbus working on individual track before getting Down to my mixbus and it been great to be honest..what you said is actually true

[@johnplainsong9769]

Makes sense. You can make a great cake from scratch with carefully balanced ingredients, or you can make a good cake using an instant cake mix right before you pop it in the oven.

[@mcpribs]

People would say to mix into the compressor and EQ. So I tried it. I’d have to adjust the compressor so many times that it drove me crazy. Set a slight smile EQ, and wouldn’t you know it, that project’s tracks ended up being bright and I kept darkening them. I can’t stand redundancies, so my buses and tracks handle the largest burden. Getting a RA Micro 4k (controller that looks like SSL channel strip that controls any channel strip) has made my mixing faster than a top down mixing ever did. Great vid, thanks!

[@codyratley92]

How is the Micro 4k for mapping many different plugins to it? I use an X Touch and Streamdeck XL with Reaper and I would love to control plugins easier

[@mcpribs]

Great! There are lots of channelstrip plugins that are already mapped. Ez to map to whatever you want though. I also use Reaper and an XTouch (the 8-channel one). I use Brainworx SSL 4000 E (most often) and Lindell 50. Works awesome!

[@codyratley92]

@@mcpribs thanks for the insight! Have you gone down the Reaper/CSI rabbit hole with the x touch? It's very rewarding once you get everything mapped the way you want it

[@mcpribs]

I’ve started using the XTouch with a Behringer XR18 and Reaper back in 2019, and had just gotten a to used to the Klinke integration, that I only recently started looking into what was new. I really only wanted to add the scribble strip colors to Reaper, but there wasn’t full color integration, and it didn’t match my template, so I just kept same/same.

[@BrofUJu]

I like mixing into some saturation and a bit of a boost up top on EQ, and that's it. Mixing into more low end and compression and stuff always felt weird and frustrating later.

[@EgoPhagist]

absolutley spot on , that's why i stopped top down mixing a while ago , cheers Joel and Maor.

[@jimdukeproject]

I do mixing on individual tracks for correction and sound improvement. I mix on each bus for groups for common moves. THEN work on the mixbus. Otherwise top down mixing is affected by every move I make on the way to it and I am working backwards. But I’m also not a pro.

[@Zephor]

I think that top down mixing into a bus compressor is always something I would do since it helps glue everything together (especially the snare) but I could definitely see how stacking a bunch of plugins on the 2bus could limit creativity and control.

[@joelwanasekurm]

I will absolutely never stop mixing into a bus comp. I’m with you.

[@zarlok5294]

@@joelwanasekurmyes. I think the substance of this discussion lies in how seductive it can be to focus too much on the two bus and use processing there as a shortcut …. It becomes a crutch and it can open a rabbit hole. Obviously we’re all human and we’re looking for faster and easier which isn’t necessarily a good path to follow consistently. I’m actually going through a phase where I’m realizing that I’ve started depending on it and in doing so I’m locking myself in the same closet over and over and getting lazy.

[@ramspencer5492]

I don't know... I just heard one of the best mixes I've heard in ages... So organic and alive and it was their first forte into giving away from mixbus compression.... Another really great mixer right now wait until after the mix and then usually just barely kisses the compressor.... And adds a tiny little bit of maybe, tape saturation etc... But after the mix. As well as working each track, you have a bunch of other buses that you can glue, saturate and duck... Etc. I'm not saying not to put anything on the mix bus to glue it while you're mixing.... But maybe at least play with it being a very subtle organic thing.... To see what you're able to put together.

[@JoaquinGonzalez2014]

It's a tool, use it wisely and when appropriate. The key is to know what you want to achieve and how to get there.

[@mpasistasyalanci]

I found out that top down mixing limits my choices by having a sound early on , but I understand that helps me do less changes on a track level and mix faster and efficiently. So my solution is a middle ground to move the same philosophy at a group level. I have a buss process on my groups so I can mix faster but still have the flexibility to change character accordingly and then I make the needed moves on a mixbuss or on individual channels

[@theorize999]

Everyone should be doing this always, you should have a bus for all the major parts of the mix, drums, bass, lead and or vocal and so on. especially drums, especially if you’re using samples/drum machines, it can really help gel everything together. Man, while we’re going over mixing basics you should be giving every instrument it’s own section of the frequency spectrum to sit in. I suck at mixing but I know this stuff at least. All this stuff applies so much more if you’re doing electronic stuff since the sounds are usually coming from a variety of sources, having specialized busses like this just helps make everything sound like it belongs together. Like if you’re doing bass music it wouldn’t hurt to have your sub bass on a different bus from your mid bass then for a final touch put them both on a bus with some subtle compression and saturation. I don’t know it just depends on what you’re doing really. A lot of the time I’m using old ass trackers so I have to try to bake as much of it into the samples as I can. It’s all relative to what you want to accomplish.

[@raybeeger1529]

You are completely right! I use only a limiter (like on a console) for loudness and levels because the vocals, reverbs , delay will be louder in the mix what shifting the relationships between the tracks also. During the mix I often shut down the limiter. Therefore it is an control "authority"...

[@georgesimpson1406]

I just do top down at the end, such that its like an adjust for levels against ' mastered' processes that change levels

[@victorloquendoful]

Big guys like shawn everett uses a lot of plugins in the mix bus, but he record the instruments with a lot a processing, a rough mix with these tracks sound almost like a record , the thing is maybe a eqs working heavily a compressor a saturator and you are ready but bass enhacers, too much saturation and multiband without a strong balance can be really destructive

[@Rasenschneider]

I use top-down for rough mixing and to become a idea for the song. For the next version I take away the stereo bus plugins and most of the channel processing except some effects and channel compression and re-working the whole mix.

[@rome8180]

I tried top down mixing for a while and it didn't work for me. I ended up trying to solve problems at the macro level that were micro problems. And the reality is I wasn't solving the issues. I was papering over them. I also don't like the lack of focus and control. For example, if you put a Pultec on your master bus and boost 60Hz, you've now boosted it on every instrument. This is even true of instruments where there's no useful information. Why do you want to boost 60Hz on a vocal mic when there's nothing but rumble down there? Isn't it much cleaner and more controlled to boost 60Hz only on the bass drum and/or the bass guitar? You still end up with the same big sounding low end, but you haven't caused a whole bunch of frequency build-up for the mastering engineer to deal with later. So now I do a hybrid approach. I still use instrument busses, and I still apply processing to those. But I do most of my problem-solving on individual tracks. I want everything to sound as good as possible BEFORE bus processing. This allows me to use bus processing as enhancement, not correction. And the result is that I use less bus processing overall.

[@BakeaCupcake-tc6oi]

hey Joel. I used to me a URM member ! long ago lol. great video , and I am completely on the same page with you. `want to know something funny? I had the same conversation with Maor ! over the phone and he absolutely lectured me. years after im in post audio now and I cannot tell you the improvements ive felt in my mixing. of course its not too similar to music mixing but what applies is the philosophical aspect you mentioned. not about the gimmick mixing tricks. for me its all about telling the story that needs to be told. and I tell you what , mixing on an Avid s4 is better than sex lol. it makes things so efficient. ive a long way to go and im always trying to learn from the best. I learnt alot of great things from you when I was starting out so I really owe u one. I hope all is well with you

[@zwsh89]

I never understood top down because if I have a snare top and a snare bottom, and I just eq the snare bus, let’s say I boost 400hz, I might be getting more body from the snare top but I might be making problems with the snare bottom worse without realizing it. I use a middle-of-the-road approach where I make sure there aren’t any major issues with individual tracks first, then try to get them to work together on their own, and only then will I then move on to the snare bus. However, once I’ve made that jump, I usually don’t come back to the original tracks, my snare bus, comprised of snare sounds that have already been treated for issues, is my “snare” for all intensive purposes moving forward. Thats where I’ll compress, and do my eq sweetening, but I know I’m not amplifying problems I never caught in the first place. Top down mixing broken into phases that start at the bottom. I’m not mixing all my individual tracks completely, and then moving on to busses, but it’s not just working backwards from the busses either. Just trying to go through steps that make the process more or less fool proof. Address the issues, and when there aren’t any, create creative concerns.

[@needsLITHIUM]

I generally do top-down on individual busses (drum bus, vocal bus, guitar bus, synth/orchestra, bus, etc) and route most everything to one of those, with the exception of a few things. Then I only put the most minimum amount of FX on the master, usually some sort of monitoring plugin for emulating speakers in headphones, which I turn off or remove before export, and a single comp/lim.

[@RoyalKeyboards]

Very interesting video. I'd say this is a general problem with "rules I saw on KZbin" practices. Believing in magic, that you just need to apply a generic formula and everything will work perfectly. The awareness exercise mentioned was great, knowing why things go into the mix or not. If you are reading this comment, allow me some advice: always keep an open mind, as real life is not simple or predictable. Mixing is a fluid art, not pure science. There are no static formulas in art, just advice you may or may not follow.

[@NickLoperGuitar]

The philosophies of mixing are everything. With my live students I push those haarrrdddd - the why's and how's, the vibes and characteristics, not the plugin chains or specific processing. Then again it's easier to get a lot of movement and energy out of a powerful PA than a studio mix. ;)

[@joelwanasekurm]

Philosophy is so important

[@MrNEWDY]

Yeah, I've never been able to really top down mix. I set a clearly calibrated SSL bus comp that will do my fave things at around 2-4db gain reduction if my mix is at the right levels, then I'll throw en eq and maybe gulfoss on it after I've had some time away from the mix to judge. Or I'll turn the bus comp off and go hardware.

[@sword-and-shield]

Gotta look at it like how anything in life with a strong foundation is built...from the ground up...thx for the vid.

[@waltertill1388]

Thanks for your insights - it is so funny for me, bc after 30 years of mixing, i never did topdown, i was wondering giving it a try - but i do not know if i should, after your good explanation. happy xmas and new year too!

[@Mansardian]

Aha, interesting. Even though I believe top down mixing has its benefits I rarely use that method. But when I do I actually only put things in the mixbus that I would have with a real console, with a real signal flow. Bus saturation, bus compressor, a very gently bus EQ, and perhaps (not always) a tape emulation. I think what you have been doing on you rmixbus is what I would do to a single track with issues. What works wonders - in my opinion - is a tilt EQ on the mixbus after you are done doing the balancing, to push the mix into the right direction. Then you can hear the issues of single tracks way clearer, like a too edgy guitar or a too thin bass or snare drum.

[@periurban]

I had no idea there was such a thing as top down mixing. I had to ask my AI chum for an explanation, and I thought he was hallucinating again. "There's no way you can mix anything doing that," I said to myself. Then I heard your explanation, and you confirmed what my AI chum said. WTAF? How can you "mix" anything like that? You'll leave all kinds of dreadful clashes in your sonic chain and be left floundering as to what went wrong and how to fix it. Honestly, kids these days. I should probably watch the rest of the video. I'm only 2 minutes in. Wish me luck.

[@doktordrift948]

Conclusion after watching 16 million contradictory videos on mixing: "None of you know what you're doing and your mixes sound bad...."

[@thegroove2000]

On the mix buss just mute in and out and see what works and then dial in. You might not need anything but its there and for extra flavour and overall control.Thats me anyway.

[@thegroove2000]

Pre-master as well with a multiband if required and a limiter.

[@dougleydorite]

Top down is a great way to get into the hardware world. The issue I’ve run into as I’ve been trying to bring my hardware into tracks, is that stereo units are very limited in what you can do. Fork out the extra money to get dual mono units

[@bluematrix5001]

I agree with that statement..... Top Down Mixing puts from the get go a huge brush of color and sonic footprint and limitations... not necessarily bad, but definitely make you slave of that 2 bus chain...

[@snowandcoal]

Thanks Maor. Also Andy S. said he don't use drum bus. Too much glue is too much glue.

[@apostolosfarmakis3457]

Hello Joel and Happy new year. I was wondering if you could give us some insight on how you got that fat of a snare and guitars on the new Rain City Drive song Frozen. Thanks in advance

[@platform1studio610]

i have always taken TDM as a limiter and MAYBE an eq.

[@damienribot1143]

Top down mixing is like Big Mac sauce. All the effort is put into the sauce, everything else can be flavorless. Genius ! Sorry, as a French guy, food is almost a religion. 😅

[@adonhd7]

i think you are right sometimes less is more.

[@-KingOfKhaos]

I’ve gotten my stereo bus down to my limiter, tube EQ for overall “flavor” and if a mix truly needs it light compression and stereo widener (although I do tend to widen specific tracks instead of the stereo bus as a rule). But Top-Down has its place… even if (hear me out here) it’s used to at least give you a “target” to shoot for… I will sometimes apply everything on the 2Bus to see what a final mix “might” sound like with the fun-sockets turned on globally… and then turn them all off globally again and go to work on each track with track-specific add-on’s and tweaking.

[@guthriejenkins]

A mastering engineer once told me that he wanted a mix that was flour and not cake. It was his job to turn the flour into cake. Once you start messing with the master bus for anything other than musical or arrangement based reasons, you are treading on the mastering process. And those guys do it better.

[@chucknkd]

When are your JST plugs going to get an apple silicon update? I love them but had to ditch till theyre updated. Ive never been able to top down mix btw, always do any bus processing last before bouncing rough

[@joelwanasekurm]

Idk I don’t own or run JST.

[@JimGramze]

I have never before heard such a rigid and misleading description of top-down mixing before. Top-down mixing often leads to focusing on individual tracks after getting a basic balance. You take something to an absolute ridiculous extreme and then state why it is wrong.

[@buckycore]

You may or may not be right. I don't care. But the fact that you come across as this elitist asshole in your statement makes me side with him by default, even if he had called EQIng fish flogging. I don't understand why you would have this superiority complex from allegedly knowing the "proper" terminology for an obscure piece of information that only .00000001% know about, let alone cares. How hard is it to just be civil to people online? And before you get think headed and defensive with nasty comebacks: you'd be proving my point.

[@mansosound]

Admitting one is 'wrong' is very brave! Have a nice day🎉

[@Notinserviceij]

It's a typical youtuber format video Why this or that sucks and why you should stop doing it now Then state a bunch of fluff replying on the title to hold the audience I felt like I was about to get a sales pitch towards the end

[@mansosound]

its like you are telling something new instead ehhe @@Notinserviceij

[@hoopscentral1828]

I totally agree!! If your so strick about even bottom up mixing its going to limit your ability to get the best mix. If your like “i cant start any buses or put any type of compression on my master bus to help glue the track until im fully fully done with each individual track. You still have to bounce around and fix what sticks out to you. You just start from the top instead of the bottom.

[@DomasBanevicius]

Bloodborne OST for the background music is sooooo good, dude love it

[@francescocapone7966]

Really valid point of view, agree 100%

[@brooklynboy1000]

A deck ade!! Wow man. 10 years. I put nothing on my mix bus. That’s how mixes fall apart. That’s the job of the mastering engineer. He’s there to add that iron and sweetness.

[@Rhythmattica]

And MORE control, though more work.... But thats the fun!

[@redbigapplefloppa302]

Wow i never would have thought that a professional mixer would actually consider this "top down" approach

[@Ewoof]

Yep. I listened to thriller and Apple Music randomly played a Vince Staples track. It was a night and day difference in the dynamics and openness. I was confused, I went to other tracks and realized that it wasn’t as good as thriller. Mind you I never had a problem with any of these tracks but after producing and mixing for 5 years I finally knew that those tracks felt compressed and lacked the fundamental excitement thriller had. I finally understood why people hated the loudness wars stating that it is killing dynamics. This changed my overall perception of mixing.

[@josuastangl7140]

You’re right! I went through a big phase where I didn’t really mind the loudness wars, I thought the songs were good and sounded just fine. Then I randomly stumbled upon some 70s and 80s stuff on good speakers and was blown away how much detail there is to hear that simply doesn’t exist in most tracks from two decades later. I was thinking about that a lot.

[@commitdubs]

I mitigate the pitfalls of top down mixing by only applying it once the mix is about 90% done. As a producer, I don't like to leave all the mix bus processing to the mastering engineer as I have a specific vision for my music. For me, I want my mastering engineer to do as little as possible in terms of shaping and dynamics processing. Ultimately, there is no right or wrong here. Music is art.

[@woodward_alan]

Would like to learn more about your track democratization results

[@NikolajChristensen]

Great video. I start out with an L2 just to catch peaks, then I gradually add more stuff on the 2bus, but that's because I'm mastering myself. I'm surprised that people who are sending their mixes to a top-level mastering engineer would even consider having all that stuff pre-backed in :).

[@sub-jec-tiv]

As a person who often has to fix dumb things people have done on their 2-bus, in mastering their work, i must agree. Seriously, since 2010, every 4th thing across my desk i have to expand to put some dynamics back into it, have to use a transient designer on various bands, etc. it’s ridiculous. Learn to actually mix so that your mix is tight and beautiful from the ground up. It takes years but it’s worth it.

[@firmans12]

Cool. This is a good learning technique. I remember Warren from produce like a pro doing with Gullfoss thing on the bus and then tried to get the almost same sound with the eq on individual tracks. I mean when I'm doing top down mixing, i can't lie it's definitely harder to get the same results just with fixing on the track😂.

[@WillyJunior]

My mixes are usually too powerful and I have to tame everything so the mix doesn't sound overly aggressive and punchy. What am I doing wrong?

[@samz9121]

I normally don't top down mix, but I admittedly do have a bit of stuff on my 2 bus. A stereo widener, console saturation, eq, bus compression and a limiter, all working subtly. I normally fire them on one by one after working my up stream and there are times I dial down or omit some elements because it was not adding to it. Some days, the bus comp and limiter were all I had on.

[@gabrielgolzar]

Basically the same good old OOP vs Functional programming debate.

[@ahawk706]

I think the problem here is not Top Down Mixing itself, it's the way you're using the technique. Some plugins that you had on your Mixbus chain are particularly for things that you might or might not need. f.e MaxxBass, you might need the bass frequencies to cut through small speakers or you might not at all! it all depends on the source . Same goes for the multiband compression and some other plugins as well. The main reason I use Top Down is for a sonic sound that i like , that adds to the track instead of shaping the track . Just like a Console board . And i even alter the settings after i get the initial balance and A/B to see what works better. You can't put things in the Mixbus thinking it will magically make your mixes better and expect it to work !! If you do Top Down Mixing , please stop using it wrong. It's not to make your mix better, it's for a sonic character that you're accustomed to, where you can mix into to it. Just even when you push the faders up , you instantly figure out where to go next and know what to do to the tracks . And if you don't want that and can work better without it, it's okay for you to not use it. But don't do it wrong and blame the technique for your fault 🤦🏻‍♂️ .

[@hugowhite2883]

Really love these vids. Thanks for making them :)

[@arctyler2245]

This is great! Makes a lot of sense, and I'm guilty of using too many plugins on my busses.

[@Jordannofun]

Would love for you to remix a song you’ve down with this alternate approach and compare

[@machineagevoodoo2106]

Nice video - I've never heard of anyone in my network that mixes in that fashion. I believe it's more akin to what the typical producer that does everything on his own usually does. Loads of mix bus processing. Imho the job of a mixer is to work mostly and mainly on track level to sort issues that turn into problems at bus level and then balance it all to a cohesive song

[@louiscoutellier120]

Amazing video , I Encountered that thing lately where I felt that mixing into to such processing is like going with the mindset that every song is mixed the same .. so I stopped! Do you still mix with some processing on the mix bus ? Or absolutely nothing ?

[@pwhybrismusic]

Very interesting to hear. I've been doing my mastering inside my mix sessions for a while and used metric AB at the end to get closer to my reference mixes. There I usually ended up using some saturation and of course EQ and bus comp. In the last mix I did, this ended up making metal guitars totally fuzzy, which sounded so bad, I hated it. Now, I still like to figure out how to get closer to the reference mixes on the master bus, but then try to put the saturation maybe only on drum rooms or only the bass, which ends up similar to what you described (: Cool video! :D

[@djerikfox]

..it makes sence, regards👍

[@walter728]

I didn't know what top down mixing is and now I think it has no sense. Why add effects to the master bus at the start? this should be done at mastering stage (or at least do it as the end step of the mix)

[@PUGLIA_JO]

Why would a mixer have anything on LR in the first place if they are sending the mix to a master? I’m confused, plugins are a way to make things quicker and easier. Yes some may have some particles that are problematic, why would you use those. Secondly, you can do anything a plugin can do without a plugin but you are still going to have to use some sort of dynamic digital processing anyway unless you are using an analog board or outboard gear. Movement gets squashed by way too much dynamic processing, period. Way to heavy on the gate, way too much compression(usually by stacking ), and even by eq (especially with a multiband ). Unless I’m trying to define a particular sound, I’m only using a SSL channel for eq/gate maybe F6 if there are some errant frequencies then a light G comp compression on mix busses to bring the mix together a bit. Panning, spread and eq are keys to movement. Make space for your instruments and vocals to move and you won’t sound like a copy of a copy.

[@Themosaicsound]

The record needs to be well balanced and the main elements mixed for top down mixing to be effective.

[@EricDoesMusic]

Definitely something to chew on, great video Joel!

[@joelwanasekurm]

Thank you 🙏

[@ProdByVizi]

Been mixing for 1-2 years and never heard if top down mixing

[@notreally-sf3df]

This video confuses me like crazy. Every reason you decided to not do it, is the only reason to ever do top-down mixing in the first place. I just finished a mix that took me 8 days (16 hour days, christmas day i only spent 9) and I don't understand why you would ever top down mix if you're not doing it in order to spend way less time? Like, it's the entire point of doing it.

[@eamonmalcolmgleeson1362]

Top down yes....but not from the very beginning of the mix....and only plugins on the 2 bus that help the overall mix (Bus compression, EQ & Saturation + Loudness plugins for client review)

[@isomatic]

Awesome video. I don't top down mix. I do as much as I can on the track and bus levels. The most I'll have on my 2 bus is a clipper or limiter. I do use mix bus compression or a lofi plugin when the song calls for it, that's like the only top down thing I'd do but I don't really count that (although I see why it would be considered top down).

[@joelwanasekurm]

Awesome!

[@blackpatflynn]

wouldnt a good reason be because it sounds good to me and ive made great mixes using that method?

[@heavymetalnewsdesk]

I never even heard of top-down mixing until people started talking about it on KZbin. It makes a lot more sense to me to get your mix sounding like you want without Mix bus inserts. Another thing I don't understand is why people have a drums bus, that doesn't make any sense to me. I've got nine faders or something here on the drums. I don't see the point in the summing them to one channel before they go out to the tape. The drums bus also known as a sub mix is something you do when you don't have enough channels, not something you should do if you have everything close mic'd and on its own channel... Just saying

[@PASHKULI]

"Top-down mixing might be limiting your progression as a mixing engineer." oh, the pun… limiting 😆

[@sven6999]

love the information, love the attitude!!

[@riptideL]

Very interesting, and to go even more granular, i wonder if Maor would recommend limiting bus processing also?

[@joelwanasekurm]

Another topic for another video

[@riptideL]

@@joelwanasekurm looking forward to it. You are cranking out great stuff at the moment.

[@leyuentertainment2429]

if the mastering engineer that told you that the pros doesn't have anything on their mix bus is true, I don't think that this is about top down mixing,rather it's more about NO Mixbuss processing.

[@rhemaman]

The whole point should never be to do it faster and easier. I'm not a pro and it's becoming a pro means I have to give up doing it right for the sake of faster and easier than I don't want to be one. Top down never appeal to me because the only reason that mix bus processing exists is for formatting and sometimes gluing or correcting. Outside of that one of the most important things that you need in every mix is track isolation which is something you're working against when you put it on the mix bus. Yeah that's right that thing that we spent all those thousands of dollars on for many selections of microphone and preamps so that we can get just the right pocket of sound for each individual instrument and voice?

[@sanjulianx]

I have never thought about doing a top down mix 😅 😂 I always thought like your Engineer homie

[@MFKitten]

I figure the best approach is a clustered top-down. Move stuff away from the master bus, over to your busses.

[@lydfar2392]

Interesting and glad to hear that. As I understand it you have a SSL 32 channel now? Isn't that something that changed your perspective and approach to mixing as well? It totally changed my perspective and strategy. Of course a lot had do with the limited tracks on the board vs. the endless possibilities ITB. But the way it forceres me to rethink everything and focus on what is really essential to the quality of a great mix. For example it helped me realize that I didn't needed so much processing on the single channels as I did before. Quite surprising actually. I do some more automation on the single channels now and I still do some balancing EQ on my mixbus. I was just wondering if this hole new setup you have now, also might have contributed to your journey, regarding top down mixing as well? I hope it makes sense... 😅