Don't Make This Loudness LUFS Mistake

[@gregpastic6910]

Please, don't AIM for a specific LUFS level. Each genre, each track, requires a different mastering approach to get the desired result. (Notice I said 'desired result' because it's always subjective.) Pay attention to how much limiting you are applying. Some tracks will need very little compression and limiting to make them sound good. Use your ears and always use good reference tracks of a similar genre or style. If your track ends up sounding great and hits -11.6 integrated LUFS with a TP of -1.4 that's cool. If it ends up sounding great at -9.2 with a TP of -0.4 that's fine too! If it sounds great at -14 with a TP of -1.8 go with it! Don't become meter-blind. I've measured hundreds of commercial tracks by top engineers and they NEVER aim for a specific loudness target. USE YOUR EARS. Then use the metering options to confirm (!) that your TP is ok. But don't master your track by following numbers on meters. It takes more time and experience to be able to do this consistently and get good results but it's worth the effort. Cheers from SoundArtMastering!

[@mixdownonline]

Cannot agree more! Thanks for your input!

[@MadNoisy]

Thanks for sharing this info. I can see that peoples will get obsesses with numbers very easily instead of listening to their tracks first. 🤘🤘

[@vinylmastersgr1036]

I agree so much with you and it's a pity that nowadays they make all the same around -8 to -6 LUFS even the music genres are different. Many songs distort awfully.

[@gkswift1999]

And for the love of God, PLEASE stop using mp3s downloaded from KZbin videos as your reference! And please please stop using iPhone headphones for your reference tones and levels. oh my God I can't tell you how many people think that that's an okay reference

[@bananeneter999]

Thank you sir!

[@HLRxxKarl]

This is why I do my mastering in Reaper. It lets you run a dry run render that creates no output, but will give you loudness statistics for your whole track in just a few seconds. Makes it super easy to check those levels for the whole track multiple times without even having to export a new file.

[@AntonelloNicastro]

It's absolutely right. I did very similar experiments uploading directly on some platforms and reached to the same conclusions and they works well for me 🤗.

[@ShonnMorris]

Thanks Chris, this confirms what I've heard from others as well. I've also had the best luck shooting for -9LUFS

[@mixdownonline]

It's a nice sweet spot! Thanks for watching :-)

[@profdraper]

Specifically, this seems to refer to -9LUFS 'Momentary' as opposed to -14LUFS 'Average' & I think that is the key. I do nearly all of this kind of finishing in Wavelab & which has very detailed tools for this kind of thing. The premasters I send to it are of course much more consevrative than this & exactly as per the requirments for a mastering house. In any case, is very easy to see & hear exaclty what's going on in Wavelab and the loudness normalisation tools can be applied in a number of different ways. Certainly, most of the time momentary is the way to go, but sometimes the program content can racially alter this as well and in those cases the average refereence point works well, eg, acoustic, jazz, classical music.

[@ShonnMorris]

@@profdraper I work in Wavelab too when I master for the very reasons you stated.

[@adelphitom]

Finally the video I’ve been looking for! Can’t tell you how long I’ve been pondering this issue haha. Thank you for the video

[@mixdownonline]

Of course, glad I could help!

[@Relvoet]

Nice penalty plugin, didnt know that yt doesnt gain quieter stuff, that is defenately one to take into consideration for the next project.

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks for watching!

[@antoinemontmory]

Very important video, thank you Chris !

[@Musicalm]

I use the supervision pos on the track with the master plugins and accompany it with another supervision pos on the stereo out. Normally, the supervision pos on the track matches the value you mentioned in the video and on the stereo out pos it matches exactly - 14Lufs integrate. Thanks for the video!

[@speedcrawlmusic]

❤‍🔥 thank you!

[@mixdownonline]

Of course!

[@shorerocks]

Sound advise. I agree. Thx for doing this.

[@mixdownonline]

My pleasure!

[@Henry_Martin_Taylor]

The EBU - European Broadcasting Union - established a policy a few years ago.... -25 LUFS for Radio and TV. Ad this time the loudness war was going on, the advertising for example in TV was a real problem, every 15 min you had to low down the volume and then up again. I'm a newbie in music production with DAW and LUFS was a complete new topic for me, I heard about four days ago for the first time. I created a dummy project to get used to Logic Pro and I've decided to move around -11/-12 LUFS. Thanks for the video and kind regards from Cologne!

[@vinylmastersgr1036]

-11 or -12 LUFS it's ok. Unfortunately now in Greece they master many greek laiko at -7 LUFS with True Peak over +2. And they increase the bass, some songs are like lofi type, or at least with not so much high end! When there is extreme loudness, I can't hear clearly the high end. Also in remastered compact discs they cut many higher frequencies and loudness is at -8LUFS even the first edition was at -15 or -14 LUFS. One friend of mine, musician, has told me that music will be in the future more bassy or lofi type with more extreme loudness and hard kick drums.

[@ChrrZ]

thank you very much for this very informative video!! this cleared up alot of questions in my mind!

[@mixdownonline]

You're welcome! Glad it was helpful!

[@vinylmastersgr1036]

Also many greek albums I have they are mastered more loud and with more dull bass, on iTunes (when I had paid to buy 2 tracks from 2023, from 2 artists, before 2-3 years) and then I buyed the original compact discs. Even I converted these albums in mp3 from original cds, sound was more clear in mp3s from original album than the Itunes files.

[@vinylmastersgr1036]

-14 integrated was perfect for songs until 2000. I have many greek albums from late 90s, early 00s that they are -15 to -13. After they increased loudness at a level of -10 to -8. Nowadays many greek songs are mastered at -7 to -6 and True Peak over +2, as to say that they are extremely bassy songs nowadays with hard kick drums and they lack of high end, lack of dynamics. I was hoped that songs in the future won't be mastered so loud but one friend of mine, musician has told me that music of future will be lofi with extreme distortion and extremely increased loudness more than now.

[@hockley91]

I really didn’t know anything about LUFS until a few days ago. I’ve always mixed with db only and try to leave the dynamic range of the instruments intact. Having said that, it now appears, I may now need to go a step further and process with LUFS in mind because of the nature of how streaming services process audio on their end. Very interesting.

[@BelovedChild]

Hy Chris Thank you for this wonderful Video! I understand your video this way: If I master in Cubase 13 ( not in Wavelab this I dont have) and there in Cubase my momentary max is -9 , but because of the dynamic it shows -14 Integrated Lufs for the whole song and I want to give it to Spotify then it`s ok? Or shall my momentary max go to - 8? I compose Popsongs: Strings Voice Piano Guitar Drums.

[@garudasomanna]

Nice take Chris. New to your channel. Could you do a video that analyses the stats for nerds on KZbin videos: how to learn from the data presented?

[@thiloschacht6311]

Izotope RX is a good editor which I recommend. Its Loudness Control feature predicts the correct LUFS levels and far more in a second without listening to the whole piece. It can also edit loudness levels.

[@phildimopoulos6010]

my one beef with Izotope plugins is some of them eat so much CPU... and by the time I'm at the mix buss or mastering I'm trying to use up as little CPU as possible with my plugin selection haha... I agree though RX is solid

[@katiepower1570]

From experience, learn how to get clean mixes before trying to have loudness. Mastering is something to learn over time. It will be easier to make a louder mix once you have a clean recording at the source and a nice balanced mix.

[@TheStudioTVSeries]

For my style of music, -14 generally sounds best to me during the bulk of the song, like verse patterns.. but when it crescendos to the highest rocking part, my ears really want to go to more like -10.5 most times

[@StargateMax]

Cubase has a convenient Loudness meter on the right. The Meter tab at the top, and then 2 tabs at the very bottom: Master and Loudness, the latter shows LUFS and a graph, and the meter settings (a button for that).

[@DigiMixAudio]

Works for me;' thanks for the insights and video!

[@mixdownonline]

You're welcome!

[@tstsmusic]

At first... I've thought I've been watching the very beginning of the movie Total Recall with Arnold Schwarzenegger, then... I've seen Chris' face, Thanks God! Chris is still on the Earth!

[@erwinyulista]

Very helpful info. Anyway how to know the statistic after the song bounced? (on the video at 0:28) Thanks

[@arminmetz]

Great video! Do you master with - 1db ceiling for Spotify?

[@Willigrow]

Great info. Now lets be real, most commercial releases are at -8 all the way to -5LUFS sometimes. People target -14 and wonder why their stuff sounds smaller and weaker, this is why. My metal mixes are at around -10, and that's before mastering.

[@machineagevoodoo2106]

Finally a normal person

[@gregpastic6910]

The level of your mixes before mastering makes no difference at all. I've mastered mixes that were at -24 integrated LUFS that ended up at -11 or -10 for example. It's your peaks that matter most. Now, if you are compressing and limiting your mix to get it to -10 or so, you should probably not bother mastering the track. If you're using 2 bus compression for flavor or groove, thats ok but don't overdo it. I've received metal mixes that were CRUSHED to -3 or -4 integrated LUFS with an LRA of 1 or 2 db! I requested a mix without the heavy processing, mastered both and sent them as No.1 and No.2 They always choose the version without heavy mix bus processing. We need to stop crushing the life out of music and give it room to breathe. Chasing loudness is a dead end. Exciting dynamics is the goal regardless of the loudness level. Cheers from SoundArtMastering.

[@ProductionAdvice]

You’re right, many mainstream masters are at -8 LUFS or higher. My questions are: 1 - Did they need to be ? 2 - Do they sound better as a result ? 3 - Even when loudness-matched ?

[@Willigrow]

@@ProductionAdvice I'd say it depends. Some genres probably not. On the other hand I've had clients who literally asked more squashed sound of their death metal tracks, because the master I sent them sounded "too clean". I'm personally somewhere in the middle. I feel -14LUFS is a bit too much headroom, as I do like some compression and limiting on most tracks. However going to these extremes of -7 to -5 is too much.

[@ProductionAdvice]

@@Willigrow Absolutely I agree - “it depends” is always the right answer. But so many people assume that because many major releases have high LUFS, that’s the reason for their sound, which isn’t the case. There’s a huge difference between measuring loud and *sounding* loud, which is about so much more than the LUFS measurement, as Chris says. It’s about density, intensity, saturation, distortion, compression, clipping, stereo width, arrangement, panning, internal dynamics and so much more. I agree that -14 isn’t a useful target, but in my experience neither is -8, -6, or any other value. Integrated LUFS is the result, not the goal IMO

[@cgdtb]

Thanks

[@mixdownonline]

Of course!

[@unoowoo]

thanks Chris. where can I get the t-shirt ? 😊

[@dragannegovanovic9194]

Hi Chris, first of all thank you for your awesome mixing class love it. Quick question I recorded one song using session wire from Apple Music online but the LUFS level came at -9 LUFS. Should they all be like -14LUFS for streaming services?

[@Revontuletband]

Most professional symphonic metal releases from recent years have integrated loudness of around -8 to -6 lufs, so it's very style dependent.

[@mixdownonline]

It's style dependant, yes. But I will not sacrifice sound quality for more loudness

[@Revontuletband]

@@mixdownonline no need to get so defensive about it😁 It's just a fact. As you said yourself, not all platforms can lift the loudness if your mix is quieter than others, and some platforms don't have loudness normalization at all. So if a person listens to a mix mastered to -13 lufs after a professional one (!!!) in the same genre that's up to -6 lufs, the quieter mix would just sound weak especially in more aggressive genres. For example, I listen to various symphonic metal artists on VK music and it doesn't have any normalization (at least not in a browser version, same as the browser version of Spotify, btw). And I can't really listen to the latest album by Nightwish (one of the biggest bands in this genre!) because it's mastered to something like -14 -12 lufs, while other bands in this niche have albums mastered to -8 -6 lufs, as I said before. So it's the same thing as 20 years ago, with cranking up one song and lowering another after it blasts your ears off

[@ProductionAdvice]

Please can you share a link to some of the examples you’re thinking of ? I completely understand that on platforms with no moralisation, quieter stuff won’t stand up as well, but based on the numbers I’ve found, those platforms are in the minority (

[@Revontuletband]

@@ProductionAdvice as I said, my main concern is for platforms with NO normalization. And, again, even Spotify and Apple Music web browser players DON'T have it. It's reason enough for me to have my masters be as loud as the competition, though again, it's style dependent. If you want specific examples in symphonic metal, try listening to a song from Nightwish's "Human Nature" album between, for instance, latest tracks by Whithin Temptation or Xandria in either Spotify or Apple web versions.

[@ProductionAdvice]

@@Revontuletband I totally get your point that you’re concerned about masters not being loud enough on platforms with no normalisation, but they do only account for less than 20% of the audience. Most people use Spotify & Apple on mobile or desktop - personally I’ve literally never used a browser player, for example. Thanks for the suggestions, I’ll check them out. So if a track by Nightwish comes on, you just skip it ?

[@JayYarbroughMusic]

Great info (as always) but I feel artists need to once and for all dump Spotify.

[@gogreyhoundmusic]

Why

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks, glad you liked the video!

[@JayYarbroughMusic]

@@gogreyhoundmusic -$

[@Durkhead]

But its free

[@raghavyadav1544]

Hey Chris, I usually set my markers at the start and end of the song and the do a render with zero limiting and true peak at -1 using pro-L2. Like your example, if the integrated value is - 16.9 I'll actually increase the gain by 2.9 db. This gives a - 14 LUFS value on the final render. Is this incorrect in anyway?

[@ProductionAdvice]

Not wrong but I recommend you add the gain while working on the file to make sure you like the sound of the limiting. Otherwise you have to check after the render, adjust and measure again, then maybe repeat...

[@gregpastic6910]

One more important thing: if you deliver a track to a streaming service that normalizes loudness to -14 and -1.0 TP and YOUR track is -16 with a TP of say -1.0 they will apply a BRICK WALL limiter when they bring your integrated -16.0 up to -14.0 because your TP is now +1.0 with the additional 2 db of gain applied by the streaming service. Do you want them to apply brick wall limiting to your track, smashing your transients? NOOOOOO! So if you deliver a track below -14.0 integrated LUFS make sure your TP leaves room to allow for loudness normalization without triggering their limiting. Cheers again from SoundArtMastering.

[@mixdownonline]

Not sure how it's done on other services, but in this scenario, Spotify will gain up to -1TP without limiting, so if your master is at -16lufs -1TP, it will stay at -16lufs after normalization, so nothing would change.I think its the same with Apple, and KZbin music will not normalize upward at all. I pointed that out in my video. That's when using their App, might be different using the browser version, who knows. :-)

[@gregpastic6910]

@@mixdownonline Oh thanks, that must have changed then? I know from other mastering engineers that brick wall limiters are used by some streaming services if they raise the gain of your track to avoid peak distortion when converting to lossy formats. If Spotify only raises the TP to -1.0 as their yardstick then you are right, your track could be quieter than others. Confusing even for those of us with experience!

[@ProductionAdvice]

Chris is correct, Spotify don’t do this any more *except* when the user chooses the “loud” setting in the preferences. Even then it only happens for songs below -11 LUFS, and it’s only available to subscribers. None of the other streaming services do this, and Spotify doesn’t do it by default (and only 17% of users change the defaults in any way)

[@gregpastic6910]

@@ProductionAdvice Thanks Ian. It seems the streaming services change their specs as technology and listener preferences change, but only under pressure LOL. I know Bob K has had many discussions with Spotify to establish some kind of standard. I wish we had standards like the movie and TV industry does. A good friend who does foley for big productions (Vikings, Chappie, Bladerunner 2049) laughs at the total lack of any standards in the music industry. The struggle continues! Cheers from Gregory at SoundArtMastering in the Cowichan Valley.

[@raised-in-thailand]

Pretty sick. This was my suspicion all along. I just couldn’t accept all those KZbin videos that said aim for -14 and I started to go lower than this without understanding why, but now I understand it. Very well, explained. However, I’m still looking for a way to measure LUFS integrated without having to play thorough the whole track, much like we don’t need to play through the whole track to export a song or video any more, but in the nineties we had to I seem to remember. Do you know a solution for final cut pro? Anyways, thanks for clearing that riddle up.

[@chriskemp466]

so on the Youlean the integrated LUFS changes constantly, does this mean only the final figure when the song has ended is the actual Integrated LUFS? Presumably it shows a constant readout just to give some general idea of where you are at(?) It also shows an average reading, what's that for, is that the more important figure? Thanks

[@loveinlatin]

which free DAW is best for editing the lufs of a mastered song?

[@hanisiblini]

Love it Chris, well said

[@mixdownonline]

Glad you like it, thanks!

[@Visualizemyfuture]

Is -10 integrated lufs good for alternative rock? Or it is too quiet? Thanks

[@ifix4u2]

This is quite a bit off subject. Looking for a bit of advice. I am currently using Cubase 10.5 Pro. I am going to upgrade to Cubase 13. Should I uninstall 10.5 before I Install Cubase 13? Q.2 Can I install some of the additional files that come with Cubase on a different drive, as I don't have a lot of space left on my C: drive? Appreciate any advice you might be able to offer!!

[@ifix4u2]

actually found a different video you did that answered Q 2. Still wondering about Q 1.

[@mixdownonline]

To answer Q1, you don't have to uninstall C10.5, just install C13, and you will have access to both versions :-)

[@ifix4u2]

Thank You!😊

[@thaexception3406]

Comprehensive view of this topic

[@mixdownonline]

Thanks

[@andrefavreau9818]

C'est drôle, depuis hier, j'étudiais justement ça et je me demandais si tu avais pas une vidéo là-dessus. J'ai même pris la tune d'Andréanne que tu as mixé pour voir comment tu l'avais fait à l'époque et tu étais en passant à -11.7 integrated. J'ai aussi regardé le même site que toi. C'est spécial que tu sortes une vidéo aujourd'hui.

[@mixdownonline]

Hey bro! Méchant bon timing, Lol!

[@chriskemp466]

even though it should be the most straight forward part of the music production process I find it the most difficult to get a clear picture on. If it's about the listening experience of giving a steady volume to listen at why does it matter at all what you master at. Why isn't it that you can just use your limiter to get the best SOUND and then the streaming service just adjusts the volume at which it is broadcast? Isn't LUFS really about how much you've squashed the track? So why not aim for the best amount of gluing and clarity etc? As I say I don't get it so would really appreciate if you or someone could clarify for me (?) Thanks

[@tommyzai7038]

Chris, any thoughts on Peak vs. True Peak normalizing? Which would you suggest for tracks (not mastering for streams).?

[@NEEDSHES]

Oh gosh I've been watching till I heard the music😄😄😄

[@mixdownonline]

Lol, you should keep watching!

[@foundpat]

Hi Chris, new sub here and getting back into cubase after many years on logic. Quick question Is there a way to identify, to see the quantization settings used in particular event. In logic when i move to a different track it shows you what quantize setting was used.

[@max-on9jq]

so LUFS has an integrated model to simulate perceived loudness? but is loudness not only dependent on signal processing in our brain but also on the medium (air/humidity) and surroundings?

[@Stormsurf001]

Good video - but let me provide some more context - If say in Spotify you have the 'Normalize Volume' option turned 'ON', then all songs played will be at -14 LUFS. But if you turn Normalize Volume 'OFF', all songs will be played at the native volume they were mastered at. And with the OFF option selected (at least in the rock genre) you will find most songs typically running in the -8 to -7 LUFS range if not louder. The loudness wars are still alive and well. With Normalize Volume turned off you are now listening to the song the way the artist intended. Part 2 of this discussion is: But how many people even understand that the Normalize Volume option exists? I've read that about 17% of people turn the Normalize Volume function 'off' in Spotify. So the question them becomes, What volume should you master too? Should you gamble that most people will use Volume Normalization? And then consider what apps like Tidal do, where they are trying to give you the raw, native full resolution listening experience. If you master to -14, your song will get passed over because it will present so quiet to be mostly unlistenable compared to other songs in that genre. It's your decision but like Chris says, I wouldn't master to -14 LUFS. .

[@mixdownonline]

Normalization is ON by default on streaming services, so most people don't even know you can turn it OFF, and don't care. And by listening to a loud lufs master normalized to -14lufs, is just like using a volume knob to turn down the volume, normalizing will not remove all the compression, clipping, and limiting the artist used to make it loud in the first place. You will just listen to the song the way the artist intended, loud, but at a lower volume. My take is I don't care much about how loud other productions ends up at. I master it as loud that I think acceptable without sacrificing the sound quality. Thanks for your comment, my friend :-)

[@Stormsurf001]

​@@mixdownonlineOh yeah - I totally agree with your position of mastering to make it sound good, not to a LUFS target. But with all the back and forth on the interwebs about the -14 LUFS target, it took me forever to 'get' what Spotify was 'really' saying when they posted that target. Now I get it, and it's all about volume normalization. I've literally never heard anyone actually say that's where the -14 LUFS number came from. So I thought I'd share that little nugget. Thanks again for all your great work!

[@gregpastic6910]

Sorry, I disagree totally with your assertion that turning off normalization allows you to hear the song "the way the artist intended." Raising or lowering the gain does not change what the artist intended in any way. If you want it louder, turn it up. Remember that LUFS is an internal measurement. You can't say to a consumer "Please listen to my album at -10 LUFS to hear what I intended." What you could say is "listen to my album at ear-splitting levels as I intended." LUFS levels mean nothing to the consumer.

[@Stormsurf001]

@@gregpastic6910 Fair enough. But if an artist masters a song at any volume, and they bought off as the master as being 'acceptable', then it IS as they intended. Certainly, Spotify, Apple Music or whatever music streaming service you chose purposefully turning the volume down is not as the artist intended. It is as Spotify intended. All that aside, and to your point, turning the volume down doesn't change the song or how it feels. But I think it's all about playlist management. That is, some users want all their songs in a playlist to all be at the same volume. And that's certainly a nice feature for some users. But I don't need it nor want it. I like my music provided raw/native. To each their own. But, for me, I found the whole -14 LUFS thing totally confusing cause I never had volume normalization turned on. And I was listening to my songs and songs from playlisted artists and finding most everything was in the -7 to -8 LUFS range. Hence the confusion about 1) what as the source of -14 LUFS target and 2) why no one was actually mastering to it. Now I know, and I just wanted to share what I learned. Literally no one on you tube or wherever talks about the source of the -14 LUFS target. They just say streaming services 'turn your music down' but don't ever say what that actually means. Now I know. If you buy a CD or an album, I guarantee the music won't be at streaming levels.

[@gregpastic6910]

@@Stormsurf001 I understand you are still learning, and I don't mean to sound critical. But you don't seem to understand that if Spotify turns your music down all your listener has to do is turn it back up. Nothing has been changed. I also disagree with your statement that "...turning the volume down doesn't change the song or how it feels." Our entire perception of dynamics and frequency response changes as volume is turned up and down. If you mix a track at 60 db c-weighted average and then listen to it at 80 db you will be shocked at the difference. That's why all pro mix and mastering engineers have usually just two volume levels to work at that are measured at the listening position with a decibel meter. But the consumer has to manage volume changes all the time as they struggle to hear music in the car, in the busy street, on the train...but they are NOT critical listeners so it doesn't matter. Cheers and keep on learning by asking questions. 🙂

[@JimCPettigrew]

Thanks for posting - so whats your advice for anyone uploading a track to DistroKid of CDBaby etc?

[@gregpastic6910]

(I posted this above) Please, don't AIM for a specific LUFS level. Each genre, each track, requires a different mastering approach to get the desired result. (Notice I said 'desired result' because it's always subjective.) Pay attention to how much limiting you are applying. Some tracks will need very little compression and limiting to make them sound good. Use your ears and always use good reference tracks of a similar genre or style. If your track ends up sounding great and hits -11.6 integrated LUFS with a TP of -1.4 that's cool. If it ends up sounding great at -9.2 with a TP of -0.4 that's fine too! If it sounds great at -14 with a TP of -1.8 go with it! Don't become meter-blind. I've measured hundreds of commercial tracks by top engineers and they NEVER aim for a specific loudness target. USE YOUR EARS. Then use the metering options to confirm (!) that your TP is ok. But don't master your track by following numbers on meters. It takes more time and experience to be able to do this consistently and get good results but it's worth the effort. Cheers from SoundArtMastering!

[@QuaverloveStudio]

Thanks, Chris.

[@mixdownonline]

You're welcome, Simon!

[@trackquestmusic]

Hi Chris, I’m a little confused because short term LUFS has always been the right way to measure for streaming loudness. I don’t know if somebody told you that integrated was the right way? It’s not.

[@mixdownonline]

Intergraded LUFS is what Streaming services normalize to. Like I show in the video, I use Short Term, but not at -14 LUFS, and that's the point of this video. Now, you know short term is what's best to use when mastering, I know it, but lots of people are confused about this, that's why I made a video.

[@gregpastic6910]

According to Spotify they use the integrated LUFS -14 measurement, not short term LUFS. It's used for single tracks and albums. So when a mastering engineer puts an album together they can adjust each track's loudness to suit the flow, and Spotify will not change that. They normalize the ENTIRE album to -14 integrated LUFS. So your loudest song may very well be louder than -14. Even more confusion eh? LOL I wish we had standards like the film and TV industries do. It would make our lives so much easier, and it would make our deliveries to the consumer platforms simpler and our music better!

[@QCTred]

So does this mean if you’re above or below a platforms level their algorithm pushes you less because they have to use resources to get your videos in line?

[@globalhole]

Spasibo)

[@iralepppi]

amazing

[@mixdownonline]

Thank you!

[@Griuofficial]

Thanks for the video

[@mixdownonline]

Of course!

[@damirvucic]

I do a lot of hip hop. My masters are at -9 sometimes i am able to go even louder at -8db without my mix beginning to bend. The perceived loudness will be louder sounding because of the highly compressed file even after spotify, KZbin or whatever platform lowers the volume.

[@mixdownonline]

Yes, that's a thing, and subtle when it happens, but it depends on the production. I hear that perceived difference mainly in quieter parts of a song, if that happens, but in my example in the video, there's no loudness differences between the tracks normalized.

[@ZoomRmc]

Unfortunately, this is a misconception. Your track with a LUFS level exceeding the platform's threshold *will* sound quieter overall after normalization. Depending on the amount of compression and the way the dynamics are treated, the quieter parts will possibly get closer to the loudest parts of the track, but this is a result (a trade-off) of robbing the loudest parts of the potential sound pressure that gets cut off by normalization.

[@mixdownonline]

@@ZoomRmc Actually, normalization done by streaming services doesn't add "cut off" processing, but brings to volume down to whatever lufs level they use. I assume you're referring to the processing made during mastering?

[@ZoomRmc]

​@@mixdownonline of course, I meant the results of mastering or mixing (though wording is a bit off). Going above the loudness threshold is what cuts off the available range.Past hitting your peak threshold (be it 0dB or lower) you inevitably need to squash the dynamics to get louder results for the same material (not tweaking the EQ or saturation). If you exceed the platform's normalization threshold in the process you're essentially just cutting of the peaks during the loudest parts of your track. Those parts will inevitably sound quieter, and although potentially introduced distortion during dynamic processing might offset the perceived loudness decrease slightly, this effect is almost always gets overshadowed by the sheer effect of the level shifting down by normalization. This isn't bad per se, but in my experience there's a general tendency to overrate "fat", "dense" and "weighty" and undervalue "punchy", "hard-hitting", "breathing", etc.

[@mixdownonline]

@@ZoomRmc In my experience, I don't hear a difference in perceived loudness between a loud master and a -14lufs after normalization, appart from quieter parts that sometimes, can be perceived a bit louder. However ,I agree with you with the side effects of over limited loud masters, and undervaluing "punchy", "hard-hitting", "breathing", etc...Totally agree with that :-)

[@chriskemp466]

So are you saying using loudest part of the song work with the short-term LUFS so that you are taking more account of the true-peak level which will be what determines how much streaming platforms can increase your loudness?

[@siggidori]

So the peak level of the -16.9 LUFS master was at -4.3 dBTP? If you'd turn it up to full scale (0 dBFS) it would be - 12,6 LUFS. Or -13,6 LUFS if peak normalized to -1 dBFS/dBTP.

[@mixdownonline]

The way this version was processed, yes.

[@dimi_r]

I checked. In my Spotify web, the volume of tracks with -8 dB sounds much louder than a track with -14 dB

[@gkswift1999]

because that's how the metering works. minus 8 dB is much louder than -14.

[@VietKaraoke8893]

If I go to KZbin, will it automatically re-balance the lufs?

[@mixdownonline]

KZbin Music will normalize louder masters to -14lufs, but will not bring up quieter matters like Spotify does.

[@pepesebastiao9654]

The worst part of this is the widespread confusion. These penalties were created to "standardize," but the result was exactly the opposite: the platforms themselves can't agree on the values. For some, normalization is also positive, while for others, it's negative. (NOW COMES THE WORST PART) Some songs are simply NOT penalized, regardless of their volume, and advertisements (NONE) are penalized.

[@marcel_max]

I noticed that quite a while ago. Now I always export with a bit of limiting then use another software to adjust the master file level at -14dBFS. Très bonne idée de partager ceci. Bonne journée!

[@mixdownonline]

Glad you liked it, thanks!

[@alphanumeric1529]

Confusing people for views. Good jorb.

[@iralepppi]

Let's say my master has a true peak of 0db, and integrated lufs of -10. But then spotift cranks it down -4 "units", and sure making it quieter but wouldn't that mean my peaks are now around -4db? isn't that not great, especially if we want the big dynamic range? or is that your entire point at the end of your video

[@iralepppi]

I guess at the end of the day it really is just balancing: loudness overall of the song vs dynamic range

[@mixdownonline]

@@iralepppi Spotify won't affect the dynamic range of your master, it will only normalize your master down to -14 LUFS. Like bringing the volume down.

[@iralepppi]

@@mixdownonline Thanks for the quick response! i think what i’m trying to get at is that there was an “opportunity cost” sort of dynamic range loss. like if my master had true peak of 0db and integrated lufs at -10 , instead of -14 in my first scenario, that is technically more dynamic range. this is weird typed out let me think about how to word it better hmmm

[@iralepppi]

@@mixdownonline maybe the bigger question is, what does spotify even do to peaks above a certain threshold ? i think i understand integrated measures lufs by now but what about peaks. say a song overall is fine in the integrated measure but still has a few true peaks of +5 db (yikes). will spotify clip those precise moments ?

[@mixdownonline]

Spotify does nothing to true peak levels, these will stay the same whether the Spotify loudness normalization is active or not :)

[@HobbieOne]

A myth finally debunked!! Good job.

[@shakyshaky-d6t]

Hello , thank you for sharing.Türk müsünüz acaba ?

[@FX-ri3dn]

Thanks for the video. This is indeed a hot topic for someone making their first release, as there are many videos on it and just as many opinions. Should you follow Spotify's guidelines or not. Your video clearly explained what will happen to the audio. What level of True Peak ceiling do you using ?

[@jordiguzman]

Have you done a measurement with certain songs on Spotify? LUFS calmly go up to -8dB and even more. I don't know if you are aware of this...

[@mixdownonline]

When normalized, which is ON by default on Spotify, all songs are played at the same loudness level. If you have songs where this is not the case, send the song title my way :-)

[@jordiguzman]

@@mixdownonline St Vincent - Flea -6.6 Integrated

[@jordiguzman]

@@mixdownonline I try to give you an answer but the comment is deleted...

[@mixdownonline]

@@jordiguzman weird, I didn't see any other comments 🤔

[@jordiguzman]

@@mixdownonline For example Flea of St. Vincent

[@le_beatbox]

Non seulement ça, mais quand Spotify gain up ton mix, ils appliquent aussi un limiter pour que ça ne dépasse pas -1 avec leur gain. Je préfère être celui qui est en contrôle du limiting final quand je fais un master, pas l'algo!

[@mixdownonline]

En fait. Spotify n'applique pas de limiter pour les masters sous les -14lufs, Spotify normalize à -1dbtp. Comme dans mon example dans la vidéo, une des versions étais à -17lufs avec un True Peak de -1.8 dbtp, donc Spotify à normalisé cette version de 0.8 dbtp pour arriver à -1dbtp. Donc au final, cette version se termine à -16.5lufs sur Spotify après normalization.

[@le_beatbox]

@@mixdownonline c’est vrai, mais je suis allé vérifier, sur spotify tu peux changer les levels de normalisation à -23 ou -11 LUFS et à -11 ils utilisent un limiter (pas avec les autres options) eh ben.

[@Sol-In-Seoul]

I don’t see the problem. Mastering to -14 LUFS (yes, of course meaning the loudness of the entire piece of music) works just fine. Been doing it for years! We have highs and lows, and we play with that to hit the average. Sounds way better, and louder, back-to-back vs -9 crushed stuff. LUFS ends the volume war crap, and is really a blessing.

[@mixdownonline]

No, there's no problem to aim for a -14lufs integrated master, the problem I see a lot is to master at -14lufs without knowing the differences betweek lufs intergrated and short term, and ending up with a quiter master than -14lufs :-)

[@CaptainProton1]

-8LUFS for non dance electronica for me seems to be the sweet spot

[@yeayea4756]

I hate it when at the end of every producer video they say, use your ears. Then why make the video then? Instead of actually telling us subjective things to look for or hear

[@PeterPan-lu7cw]

I don’t get it. Of course the value for the whole track is different as the measurement of the loudest part

[@katiepower1570]

For an acoustic session, it is naturally going to be quieter. People overthink all this, if it sounds good it is good. Commercial tracks and rock bands will always be louder. Once your master fader is not clipping, it is really up to taste. People get way too insecure on loudness. Loud doesn't always mean better.

[@___David___Savian]

Just do the following and don't overcomplicate life with LUF and all that other BS. Just put ALL your levels at minus six decibels and don't render the project of song through its crazy DAW filtering funnel. Just bounce it as a LIVE take as it plays. Reaper DAW has that feature. It is called >>> Save Live Output To Disk

[@echomusicswe]

Good Tips and Tricks, but a little confusing! it's just volume! Right? And it all comes down to how I want the dynamics in a song? What If I want very wide range of dynamics? eg a reggae song that's very dynamic, soft playing.

[@mixdownonline]

Honestly, if you aim at around -12lufs to -11lufs on louder parts, chances are you will be around -14lufs intergraded, and that's plenty of dynamics...experiment, and see :-)

[@MadNoisy]

Tricky one. Volume and Loudness are not the same. You will have to look it up in a video that can explain it more specifically.

[@victorbicudo1374]

i'd rather master at -11 and take the penalty than risking being quiet at the end of the process. been there, done that.

[@mixdownonline]

Same here

[@lacikollar64]

I think - 14 is ok more louder seems unnatural and can clipping so what's a problem. This is a war in our digital age it was not like that before. It used to be less louder like in - 20 but all is changing. All because all think louder is better but it is not. And on the top of it over compressed with millions unnecessary effects Ir is not music it is just showcase who is more louder. Even you do louder all platforms included yourube or Spotify will reduce your loudness anyway. If you wanna listen louder get receiver and you have louder and without any distortion or clipping.

[@blindcamel6236]

so I can just add a bit of silence to the end of the song to bring down the average lufs of the whole song?

[@ProductionAdvice]

No, the integrated value ignores very low levels, so this won’t affect the result

[@realbosstakea]

i thought it was 18 not 14

[@Tiomofee]

Why don`t you guys stick to the EBU regulations? You are still fighting the loudness war and losing dynamic range by doing so. EBU is -18dB LUFS integrated. Otherwise when using the streaming platforms aim at what these platforms want to have, not more not less. This means, of course, you have to render several specific masters.

[@tracktaylor2783]

Im on the frontline bro!

[@Tiomofee]

@@tracktaylor2783 Thanx, Chris, for reacting to my post. That`s become rare nowadays. ;-)

[@alanredversangel]

Make your mind up you lot.

[@mixdownonline]

?

[@alanredversangel]

@@mixdownonline Seems like no one can agree on how to achieve this?

[@ProductionAdvice]

I agree with Chris 🙂 Loudest sections at -10, maybe -9, True Peaks at -1 and balance everything else musically 👍

[@Renegade3746]

-7luffs!!!

[@JanosKonti-rn4kq]

Hey guys, what are you talking about? Ma be you are all riding the horse sitting backwards. Obviously, and depending on the mixing/mastering method you are using, the resulting integrated loudness level will be different. It is normal, but this is not the end of the story. Because the task is different. Summing the discussion here, you are talking about a certain LUFS level as target result, while maintaining zero headroom (as ever before) to fulfill the requirements of given media platforms, being -14 LUFS or any other levels. Wrong! Have you ever studied the original loudness standard? ITU and AES/EBU tells -23 dB LUFS as the target integrated loudness level (not -25 LUFS someone mentioned here). This enables normal dynamics to any music content (including classical music, jazz, high end audio contents, none of them are mentioned here). Keeping -23 dB LUFS really finishes the loudness war, since it was initiated against the unnecessary dynamic reduction. But what is happening, if it is increased during playout to -14 dB LUFS. Content providers force the audio industry to continue the loudness war, since it can be fulfilled only by dynamically compressed materials again. Why? Because a -23 dB LUFS material which is increased during playout to -14 dB LUFS will loose 11dB headroom, and will be distorted. Avoiding this, you have to use compressors even for “intended to be high end audio” content. According to the new concept, no matter what is the end LUFS result of the material, playout will bring everything to -23 LUFS. If it is -14 LUFS instead, it continues the loudness war.

[@studioapollo9781]

The loudness war is not over. The major labels have agreements with streaming companies and provide volume benefits for their contracted bands. You're a free artist, you're out of luck, you'll be quieter. Fortunately, we have a few tricks to break it.

[@mixdownonline]

Not sure that's accurate, but if you have songs you know that are louder with normalization ON, feel free to send names my way

[@ProductionAdvice]

^^ Chris is right, I’ve been watching this for years and never seen any evidence of “loudness for money”

[@Beatstockpile127]

Nowadays I go for -12 LUFS for KZbin and they will turn it down about 25% but, I am fine with that.

[@Darfoulds]

I love your vids mate but I feel you got it wrong on this one, to compete with other mainstream artists and depending on style of music most of my electronic genre releases have to be at -6 (ish) lufs, otherwise they are definitely quieter

[@mixdownonline]

Where was I wrong exactly? No, they don't "have" to be at -6lufs, you choose to master at that level, and that's fine, if it's sounds good to you, but streaming services will bring it down so all music will sound approximately to the same loudness, like shown in this video.

[@Darfoulds]

@@mixdownonline wrong in the sense of my experience uploading to streaming and then hearing the volume difference between tracks at -6 and -14

[@mixdownonline]

@@Darfoulds Thta's when you turn off normalization on streaming that is ON by default. In that case you will hear a difference, but even then, I think the loudness competition argument is overrated. I always master for the benifit of the song, not the "competitors"... Loudness will not make or break your production.

[@pejmanjamilpanah3678]

I don't change any Spotify settings in my computer browser - I don't activate or deactivate anything. This way, I can hear the maximum volume of mastered music, both my own and my friends. So I don't believe that Spotify brings the loudness down. This idea is just talk and theory. To test this, play some industrial music (good one) from Spotify and monitor the loudness directly through a plugin. This way, you can both hear and see it for yourself. There's a lot of misinformation about this on the internet. I don't mean your video specifically, but most of the information out there isn't accurate. Things like low-cutting vocals are absolutely wrong and spread further misinformation. Ugh, yes, low-cutting vocals is bad advice!

[@mixdownonline]

The "normalize audio" feature on Spotify is active by default, unless you turn off yourself in the settings. Spotify does normalize audio, it's not a theory, but a fact support.spotify.com/us/artists/article/loudness-normalization/

[@mixdownonline]

Why is adding a low cut filter to a vocal bad advice exactly?

[@ProductionAdvice]

Just to confirm what Chris is saying - loudness-matching (normalization) is enabled by default in Spotify, and I've been told that fewer than 17% of users change this setting. So most people hear reduced level on louder masters. On KZbin this can't be disabled, and they have over 80% of the users...!

[@pejmanjamilpanah3678]

@@mixdownonline While the fundamental frequency of the human voice doesn't extend into very low frequencies, its harmonics can still be perceived in that range. To achieve a warm vocal sound, consider selectively boosting some of these low-end harmonics rather than cutting them entirely. so the music will sound much warmer, and listening to it at high volume will not cause ear fatigue. Here you hear a vocal that is not only low cut but also amplified kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH26eHePaJ2aqqcsi=AXBkK7mINJZkshfA

[@mixdownonline]

@@ProductionAdvice That's good insights Ian, thanks!

[@bill-sr1vd]

At 4:10 you say you measure the loudest part of the song. That's your mistake. You even spend the rest of the video saying that's a mistake 🙂

[@mixdownonline]

Yes, that's the point of the video, showing a mistake lots of people do, and give you the solution to it :-)

[@AdolfoS-ud7uy]

@@mixdownonline Why not measure the whole track when determining integraged LUFS?

[@Durkhead]

Make it as loud as you can without sacrificing sound quality

[@mixdownonline]

Love it!

[@luklagrande]

Or just use Reaper ❤❤

[@mixdownonline]

Reaper is great, but how would that help with loudness exactly?

[@mixdownonline]

Reaper is great, but how would that help with loudness exactly?

[@luklagrande]

@@mixdownonline hey man thanks for replying me! 🤘 Reaper has some cool feature which I find very useful when I must check loudness, levels, etc.... besides having all the info when you render a file (LUFS, Peaks, etc) you can make a "dry run" render, that means no file is saved. This render is very fast so for example you can check the Integrated LUFS without having to listen to the whole song (ike you mention in the video 😅). Also, still when rendering, you can choose to normalize the exported file to a certain LUFS level and also limit to a certain peak...this is also useful to check which parts of the song would be considered too loud or too quiet there''s also other useful option for mono checking etc, but I think the ones I described above are the most useful about this topic ☺

[@mixdownonline]

@@luklagrande that's pretty handy, thanks for the info 👍😀

[@luklagrande]

@@mixdownonline thanks to you!!!! ^_^

[@dennislacroix9962]

Meanwhile the latest releases by Olivia Rodrigo or The Rolling Stones are mastared at an integrated -6 to -5 LUFS. Keep on mastering at -14 if you want to sound like an amateur.

[@mixdownonline]

Sorry, but I'been producing, mixing, and mastering for a living for more than 20 years, and let me assure you that an amateur sound has nothing to do with loudness

[@Y42]

word.

[@bill-sr1vd]

In 2024, mastering for streaming to -5 LUFS is stupid. Streaming services will make sure nobody hears it that loud.

[@MrTusaProduction]

Fake news! You really think Taylor Swift uses -14? :D No, its like -8, -7 she makes! Spotify normalizes to -14LUFS you can make your songs so loud you want!

[@mixdownonline]

What's fake news? You clearly didn't watch the video

[@richiefamus8778]

You can make it -6 if you want and yes they will lower it. Problem is, if you would’ve just mastered at -14 your master would’ve sounded much better

[@TransistorLSD]

​@@richiefamus8778 It depends on how you mix. If you use enough saturation & distortion for your style of music during mixing, then yes, there's no need to go above -14 LUFS. However, if your mix lacks needed distortion, lots of limiting might give you that desired effect.

[@whitex4652]

It's "integrated", not "integraded". As to be seen in Supervision.

[@mixdownonline]

Is that what you got from the video? Sorry for my French!