The Unspoken Problem in Sim Racing

[@itsgabeplays]

Sleep deprived Gabe did not notice the render came out looking like a half baked sim content update… but I suppose it’s ironically fitting in a way :)

[@MKIIUltRacer]

I think you made your best point in the first 1:30 seconds. I'm a die hard sim racer but the frustration in some sims to just do some quick hot lapping is just rediculous. Some games you need to adjust .ini files just to get a good expirience. The LMU dev thing annoyed me a lot. Yeah iRacing has it's problems, but user expirience for LMU is really bad. Having to google how I setup triple screens in LMU could be forgiven, but basic stuff like not being able to adjust your mirrors (yes you can change seating position, it is not the same) or adjust the UI seems insane for a sim game released in 2024. Setting up FFB is a problem in all sims imo. You would think they had presets for the most popular wheel bases but you have to google that to.

[@Seanfac3]

I just play games I enjoy and do things I enjoy. I dont give two shits if people like them or not. I find its a good way to live my life.

[@itsgabeplays]

Chronically vibin. I support

[@SportSimulationVideogames]

I second you my friend, brilliant thinking

[@Rasterized1]

I will always prefer “immersive” to “realistic,” in any genre of game. I’m not looking for truth, I’m looking to have fun. If I wanted truth, I wouldn’t be playing games to begin with.

[@AustinSheidy]

Subbed. Keep putting out content bro, this was a good watch.

[@itsgabeplays]

@@AustinSheidy Thank you Austin, I’m glad you enjoyed it! There will be more coming in the future.

[@ZacharySilvey]

Racing sims are popular because they offer a facsimile of an experience that most of us will never get to experience. A racing game does not necessarily need to replicate IRL driving dynamics to be a good platform for competition, but then it's not a sim and most of us want sims. GT7 does a good job of striking a balance between approachability and competitiveness but I'm completely uninterested in a simcade. Trackmania is a great example of an extremely competitive racing game that has no interest in being realistic, it's not for me but others presumably find enjoyment in it. I think there is space for a competitive racing game that doesn't try to replicate the real world, but for now it doesn't seem like a popular idea.

[@itsgabeplays]

I might have not described my point the best. I’m not one to say make it “approachable”. I want it to be accurate. But I also want it to feel and drive good. That’s what I was trying to say with the butt feel example. But I get what you mean. At the end of the day I’m going to okay games where you go fast and race people bc it’s fun

[@jr2e3]

⁠@@itsgabeplaysi get this. I want something that pushes me into improving and having fun at the same time. The way lots of other video games teach you mechanics and build your skill over time.

[@ebdo7863]

I watched these 12 minutes, and I'm none the wiser 😂

[@itsgabeplays]

@@ebdo7863 I read these 10 words, and I’m none the wiser 😂

[@ebdo7863]

@@itsgabeplays Touche :)

[@thelizardfolk]

don't know that i fully agree Gabe but i think it's a good perspective because I bet there's more people with your perspectives than mine. I think the realism does need to be mimicked well to a reasonable degree otherwise this space loses a bit of it's purpose rather than just being a general "racing is hard" genre. But I do agree that "the perfectly accurate driving feel" isn't really going to be what sells something in 2024. It's a fantastic foundation to start on but all you'd be doing is selling an incomplete product if that's all you can offer. If your netcode is trash, your UI/UX is trash, your damage modeling is trash, etc etc. The "fantastic foundation" isn't gonna make people stay in your game. That's what iRacing has figured out. If it's generally in the ballpark of realism, people will accept it for a more cohesive package all around rather than a product with one perfect aspect (whether that's paramount important or not) but everything else is poor or not fully there.

[@itsgabeplays]

Fair opinion sir. I hope I clarified in the video but to clarify, I basically think there is a sweet spot of realism. (Closer to realistic than not). If a sim is not realistic enough, you will notice the disconnect and a fake driving feel. But, if a game is too realistic, the wheel feedback provided alone would not be sufficient to race with. So in my very tiny noob opinion, the best sim should sit somewhere in "Realistic but Emphasized wheel feel data" (like most are pretty close do doing). Not the only game feature needed, but I think its a good example of the general game philosophy I'm going for .

[@itsgabeplays]

Coming back for a round two comment because I think you make a very good point. Especially for people from different backgrounds. Example, my version of “realistic balance” may be completely different than yours. For instance, I might not even notice a discrepancy to realism in game design, but it may completely break your fun and immersion as a much more experienced racing fan. +1 rep for you sir

[@speedlimitviolationspecialist]

"If your netcode is trash, your UI/UX is trash" so your describing iRacing? lmao

[@cbremer83]

This is not far off what I have been saying for some time now. I have some track experience from many years ago and did a lot of autox as well. Your hands basically are filling in the gaps you butt no longer fills. Add hearing to that. iRacing does a pretty good job simulating tire noise. They way I look at it, it just needs to be good enough. If it is good enough to trick your brain, that is all you need. Everything is just adapting to what you are driving. Jumping from sim to sim is like jumping from car to car. You adapt to what ever it is. All that said, most of us have never driven anything close to the cars we drive in sim. We have no real idea what they should feel like. Those of us with some sort of experience can make some educated guesses, but we do not really know. In the end. Just have fun and worry less about most of this stuff. There is plenty of real life stuff to stress about. No need to stress about sims.

[@PaperChipYum]

I actually agree completely with you, and im also a beginner. I think racing sims should prioritize on the user experience rather than realism, while keeping it realistic. That's why GT7 is so popular. It incorporates fun game design while keeping realism in one of their priorities while it not being super hard to get into. AC is also super popular because of how easy Kunos made it to put mods into the game and has a dedicated community, while having phenomenal FFB and realism without making it "too hard". Nevertheless, yes, I agree with your take and its valid.

[@itsgabeplays]

Well I agree with you agreeing with my take

[@theDataDrivenIdiot]

personally, I believe you should have fun with whatever sim you're playing. At the end of the day it's just a game and you own personal enjoyment is more important than being "correct", whatever that means to you.

[@briffy385]

the problem in simracing are the simracers. im a beginner and a nobody, my thoughts wont matter, im not even interested in f1 or even endurance racing. im into simracing because im to broke to drive on a track irl. and its not by paying millions on iracing that i'll save up to do so. so road cars, a somehow good feeling and cheap? the only solution is assetto corsa and i love it =)

[@Custom2udo]

just to add to this, i think realisitic can be fun, but can also be alot more frustrating, and ontop of that having the pay barrier thats already there for the irl stuff like a wheel and pedals and then having to pay for the game, subscription and extra content for something like iracing makes it very daunting to get into and might stop people wanting to even try

[@itsgabeplays]

Yeah it’s an investment heavy hobby compared to other virtual ones at least

[@Custom2udo]

@@itsgabeplays it shouldnt have to be is my problem, id rather sim racing goes down the route gt7 is going rather than iracing. people get into sim racing because they dont have the money for irl racing, but you still have to spend far too much imo

[@itsgabeplays]

@@Custom2udo well that’s why different options exist. There are some games like iRacing that laser scan everything, pay full licenses for countless series, and so it’s expensive. And like you said there’s other options like GT7 if that’s what you want

[@Custom2udo]

@@itsgabeplays im on pc. the best option i have is project cars 2, but to play online with a wider range of people id need to get acc or iracing which costs far too much, thats my problem and i get that they laser scan and its expensive but it puts a huge barrier infront of anyone wanting to get into sim racing or take that step to play against other people. sim racing isnt that big of a community and its not gonna grow too fast because of the initial price for everything. gt7 is the best middle ground but its a console exclusive

[@itsgabeplays]

@ why not ACC? That’s very cheap

[@utry_daniel438]

I have a late model I've raced irl a few times. I'm no expert, I am not amazing, but decent I guess, and I will say this: You get a lot more info through your hands than you realize, the "force feedback" you get from a race cars steering wheel is totally foreign to what it is in a road car, even a sports car. I'm convinced people that say "light ffb is actually realistic" have never raced irl. It's not; IRL: more g forces and less steering feel Sim: no g forces and all steering feel It's just a lot of both. Other than that, you're spot on.

[@itsgabeplays]

@@utry_daniel438 yeah that’s definitely interesting. I was kind of focusing on road cars and I know ovals are significantly different. But you are right I’ve never raced irl. Need someone to prove me wrong by inviting me to a track lol

[@utry_daniel438]

@ I will add that it’s not like I’ve ever driven a GT3 car lmao so I guess it could be different for everything

[@steveo5712]

Iracing is awesome, but it does need some work at the moment. Daytona 24h IRL pole lap yesterday was a 1:33, we are lapping 1:29 flats. Basically wide open through the bustop. They definitely need to work on the physics. Also, they need to go away from CPU bound and try to focus on modern GPU tech.

[@GregoryShtevensh]

If you're driving a race car sim and it's realistic, then it should be immersive just because you're in a race car and it's realistic. But what's really important is that the times match what's really attainable in real life. Otherwise, you never get a sense of, oh, this is how good I am in a GT3 car. You get a sense of, this is how good I am when this game allows it. I'm certainly not chasing that feeling. If I quote a time, the last thing I want to hear is "yeah but on THAT sim, times are unrealistically easy". Make it immersive sure... But you still shouldn't be able to get around the track any faster than your skills allow, regardless

[@GregoryShtevensh]

And in this case. I don't think either sim is unrealistic anyway. They both sim to be sims rather than simcades. But iRacing has always had the reputation of being unforgiving.

[@itsgabeplays]

I don’t really agree with this being the most important but just another reason why certain sims are more for others

[@ScottOmatic]

Sim Racing doesn't have to be as real as possible, it just needs to be convincing as possible, and there's a difference. Many of todays sims got caught in the weeds of implementing more and more real life systems, when many of the already existing features in the game are not focused, full of bugs, or add needless complexity without adding value. I truly believe there hasn't been a substantial improvement in the overall quality of racing sims in the past 20+ years, because many of the technological improvements to the software since then have not added a ton of value to the actual gameplay.

[@Quentenius]

Agree w the general sentiments in the video. Specifically, the ability to catch slides, know where the limit is, without an abrupt spin with no forewarning is important. Of course, some cars are more difficult bc you need more precision. But, yes, many car games are enjoyable even if they aren't as realistic. I drive for a living, si I'm often on something like FM to give my hands and arms a rest. At the higher levels (4980+) it's about as fun as ACC multiplayer.

[@itsgabeplays]

Dang I never really gave FM a chance. Mainly because I’m a VR junkie now

[@Sketchupdave]

I played LMU this week beacuse it has VR support now. At the start the ffb was horrible and the car was undrivable, with its dead center feel. I took my time and adjusted the ffb settings and I must say the ffb is extremly good, detailed and its easy to control the car on the limit, when the ffb is setup correctly. Now it reminds me a bit of AMS 1 whit the real feel mod, for me it was peak.

[@itsgabeplays]

I’ve gotta try LMU. I’m a big VR junkie and it looks fun. But I just like trying way too many series lol

[@joshuadelorimier1619]

Don't get caught up in other peoples opinions don't loose your own personal immersion

[@sakugaaddictraunak5919]

Yeah i completely get your point but the thing is most of the people start sim racing after watching real f1 and gt races ofcaurse they could play forza and stuff but they want these realism feeling thats why they choose these sim games and expect to recreate those real life racing scenarios some find it in iracing and some in lmu and when u love something u cant just sit down u have to tell the world how grt it is even at the cost of hating the other thing, there's no solution to these comparing problem wait till AC Evo releases the ACC lovers will start playing evo and then hate on ACC saying its unrealistic 😂 or vice versa

[@itsgabeplays]

Very true lol

[@arenam79]

I play in VR for fun with a laptop, I'm limited to Ams2 and I'm fine with it regardless of what other peoole say. Its really not that serious, is a hobby and not a job.

[@louiienation8497]

iRacing is my favorite sim probably cause im so used to it. I’ve tried AMS2 and LMU and just didn’t do it for me. Nothing was wrong with them. They were awesome for sure but just not my cup of tea. I’m not saying iRacing is the best but for sure everyone has a favorite sim and we should all respect each others opinions.

[@unotoli]

If you can't tell the difference (which is no bad) - then there is nothing wrong with a particular game, nor picking whatever if more fun (single, multi, over-ffb, etc).

[@jonasclementdk]

Calling AMS2 a relic sure is a take lmao. Literally had it's biggest update so far just this year.

[@itsgabeplays]

Yeah it was a mostly meme statement. But also just from a pretty new to the hobby view, the only ones I see talked about widely in a modern multiplayer sense are LMU and iRacing

[@jonasclementdk]

@ AMS2 is definitely new in the online scene outside organised leagues - but it’s very popular on LFM at the moment. ACC is the biggest online sim after iRacing afaik. iRacing has been the biggest online platform for ages and LMU is the new kid on the block

[@itsgabeplays]

@@jonasclementdk yeah, personal opinion but if a game requires a third party organized multiplayer it just isn’t in the modern multiplayer in my considerations. And yes there’s ACC I had honestly just completely left them out of this

[@bloodysquirrel1731]

Is your point that if you put car into a qualy deploy (which drains your battery from 100% - 0% in a lap) faster than race mode? Like what? Thats the whole point of qualy deploy. But with the rest of the points I kinda agree. I think that this discusion is just stupid. We have options, some games are more realistic some are less but thats not wrong. Some games are better for singleplayer, some for multyplayer, some for league racing. Play what ever you like, what ever suits you.

[@itsgabeplays]

@@bloodysquirrel1731 completely right. I play what ya want to play. One game isn’t worse than another bc they prioritize different things. With the deployment though, it was my understanding that the battery is only a way to make the car more efficient not supposed to make it faster. Qualifying deployment allows for less fuel to be put into the car which equals fast laps. But, when I tested it, I drove full fuel and alternated between quali deploy, and no deploy. Each time quali was wicked fast (a few seconds faster)

[@bloodysquirrel1731]

@itsgabeplays with the hybrid system it's half true. It's true that overall power should be same but you will get more torque with deployment so you will get more acceleration. However I don't think that IRacing got this system correct. Tbh I didn't watch hypercard much so my knowledge is limited. Also the problem could be that in IRscing mgu is used even above allowed speed which would mean that you will have higher max speed

[@bloodysquirrel1731]

@@itsgabeplays I looked into a matter, and yes, Iracing is completly wrong :D

[@unotoli]

AMS2 and GeneRallly, woohooo! ;^/

[@imJGott]

ACE is just not having MP during the first early access, calm down.

[@itsgabeplays]

Yeah I was just so hyped to start racing in that game but now we have to wait again

[@imJGott]

@ I’d rather wait for it (mp) because they don’t know how the game is going to run on several machines.

[@doot6516]

i see your point but i personally think the community is fed up because of all the fake promises. look at rennsport for example. they marketed the absolute fuck out of that game just to release some garbage and try to microtransaction their player base. it just seems like no one other than lmu and ams2 are the only 2 really putting effort into their sims. iracing wont give 2 shits about updating their decade old tire models up until someone decides to compete with their irating system. we are just tired man. its money after money just to be given shit

[@itsgabeplays]

Haven’t tried it but isn’t iRacing rolling out a new tire model? Thought it was supposed to be softer and not stay so hot all the time. Not on all cars yet but it seemed to me that they are finally trying on it

[@ksln]

Lmao, iRacing was released in what, 2008? Talk about relic. xD

[@denn15m8]

Im sick of hearing about how the gtp cars are not accurate in power delivery. No one actually gives a shit, there is hardly anyone driving the GTP cars anyway proportional to the amount of total iracers playing and the ones that do don't care because its the same for everyone so the racing is good.

[@itsgabeplays]

Well that can be your opinion but it is probably in the minority. As you saw in the video I’m full team good racing over complete realism. BUT when I race the GTPs I want them to race like GTPs. The way they are set up right now completely changes the way they are raced. Instead of being a fuel and tire strategy on fun fast cars, it’s a push to pass fest with the current form of deployment. Also it’s a big enough problem that iRacing locked deployment in races to balanced.

[@marijn17s]

3-5 seconds improvement between balanced and quali is the biggest cap i've ever heard. It gets you at most a couple tenths

[@itsgabeplays]

This was the day after the Ferrari came out. Ran at spa. I have a buddy who has a video in the pipeline discussing more on that specific topic