The Untold Story Behind FULL METAL JACKET's Iconic Rifle Jam Scene -

[@Rembanspellsong]

the reason that the cleaning kits were not issued was the M-16 was supposedly 'self cleaning' and wouldn't need maintenance.

[@wastlander3098]

Well that was a fucken lie

[@twaodood5106]

This is your government and action Eugene Stoner the inventor never intended for this this was a government add-on

[@griz312]

@@twaodood5106 it was more deliberate because of the fact that the Military Complex wanted to fulfill contracts with Springfield Armory to produce M14 rifles. They were also stuck on the traditionalism of the unrealistic expectation they would engage targets beyond 1000 meters when engagements were below 300 meters.

[@Scrambled_Meat]

Don't forget changing the powder load specs after the rifle shipped and basically supplying underpowered ammo.

[@brianknapp6215]

When the cleaning kits were finally issued to soldiers in Vietnam- they were accompanied by a comic book illustrating how to clean their "Sweet 16".

[@johngutierrez9339]

The rifle was designed to use ball powder and not the stick powder initially used. In addition, they did not chrome line the bore, which also caused jamming problems. Once these two issues were addressed, jamming became very rare.

[@colbyhale7030]

My uncle was SF during that time he did 2 tours in nam his squad was issued the ar-15 im guessing the prototypes at the time he said they worked better then the M16 must of been a nice thing to have over the m16

[@JustAdude291]

@@colbyhale7030 prob a CAR-15 or GAU-5 (CAR-15 commando) if he was SF. Basically the carbine version of the m16a1

[@colbyhale7030]

@@JustAdude291 pretty sure the CAr15 if I remember right yea

[@colonialmustard8156]

Also the myth the m16 was self cleaning probably didn’t help

[@JustAdude291]

@@colbyhale7030 yea checks out bro

[@williamalbright3157]

Let's not forget General Motors was the one that found the jamming problem. With the devolvement of a high speed camera. Yes, General Motors was one of builders of the M16

[@Master_WannaBe_]

They also designed the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger cannon for the A-10 Thunderbolt. The company that makes washing machines that helps make stains disappear, also designed the gun that makes bodies disappear.

[@rslover65]

​@@Master_WannaBe_ that would be GE, not GM.

[@droidnick]

​@@rslover65 General Dynamics now.

[@markroberts8327]

The same GM that molded a sculpture of welded guns at their Canadian HQ ? GUNS were bad, mentality when socially acceptable .

[@carlsteffens]

​@@Master_WannaBe_ that was general electric not general motors

[@stevenstoll2016]

The entire problem to all of this was ONE person, and he was the Secretary of Defense, named Robert McNamara. He had NO military training, and took it upon himself to eliminate the chromed barrel of the M16 that the designer, Eugene Stoner, had developed. As Stoner designed, it would require minimal cleaning, therefore no cleaning kits were distributed with the firearms. McNamara was personally responsible for thousands of deaths of young American serviceman.

[@joshm9782]

I thought most were due to the head of ordnance corps as well who caused many issues but deliberately because he knew they would under the belief that if it failed spectacularly the army would revert to the m14.

[@mwbright]

Plus, he saddled the country with the F4 Phantom, and set military aviation back for thirty years.

[@JosephN.]

That's the most dumbass thing I've ever read lol, set it back from WHAT LOL@@mwbright

[@Bouitto9167]

McNamara is a horrible person.

[@AverageImp]

wasn't the m16 supposed to be like a "defense rifle" on air force bases or something. and had no plans to be used on the front lines

[@davidrouse7052]

Thanks to John McNamara and the Pentagon changing the powder from what Stoner had designed back to ball powders and dropped the chroming of the receiver to "SAVE MONEY".

[@markfryer9880]

Save money, waste lives! I hope McNamara is burning in Hell for his decisions. Mark from Melbourne Australia

[@herbwells6218]

Always remember one of the rules of combat is that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder😃😃😃

[@davidrouse7052]

Very true

[@intothenight756d47]

McNamara was a massive S.O.B.

[@jakubb9498]

So communism > capitalism

[@Ohnoitsthatguy-620]

The "new" gunpowder was actually gunpowder that was being used for the 7.62 ammo for the M14s. The Government didn't want it to go to waste so they put it in the 5.56 rounds. The problem with that is is that since the M14 was pushing a bigger round, it left a lot of fouling because not all of the gunpowder would burn up before the smaller bullet left the barrel. This extra fouling, Coupled with the lack of cleaning kits under the premise that the M16 was "self cleaning" meant that the guns had a very high propensity to jam. For those arguing that has something to do with the design of the rifle, please explain why Special Forces (a unit that on average had a better grasp on firearms knowledge than your average draftee and would have been using ammo made with the correct gunpowder since they were testing the weapon) loved them and recommended their adoption.

[@griz312]

For real, everyone ragging on the .223/5.56 round fail to realize the reality of actually being on the ground is totally different from shooting from a bench. Notice that most countries ditch anything related to a AK or 7.62 NATO Platform in favor of the 5.56 once they get access to it.

[@arturg.j.167]

@@griz312 I think it has more to do with politics than the performace. Yemen for exemple bought AR-15s chambered for 7.62x39, sweden still widely uses 7.62x51 rifles, etc. There is also the 5.45x39 that is very similar in performance to 5.56x45, and is also widely used, it don't make sense for a country to ditch it in favor of 5.56x45 simply because it is "better".

[@Unregistered.Hypercam.2.]

​@@griz312 because its standardised ammunition, although the us military is doing a change on the 5.56

[@funfact6880]

@@arturg.j.167 Sweden and Yemen are not part of NATO. Sweden is known for having a unique and local focus on arms manufacturing. 5.45 is also a Soviet round and poor countries are more likely to have it. But the switch from 30 caliber to smaller rounds was the right move in the mid 20th century and has led to great leaps in firearm technology in the global military and domestic US civilian market.

[@arturg.j.167]

@@funfact6880 These are 3 separate examples, i am not claiming that they are part of NATO. Also the civilian market very rarely influence the military industry, apart from stone modifying a .223 to use in the AR-15, was there really another influence from the civilian market in the change from full sized cartridges to intermediatw cartridges? Now talking about the USA influencing other countries, of course it did. The soviets just like the germans used a shortened version of thei full sized cartridges for their assalt rifles, but still it was a too powerfull round. When the USA appeared with the 5.56x45mm the soviets were quick to realize how good of round it was, and quickly developed its own version of cartridge similar to that, so the 5.45x39 was born. These too cartridges are very similar in performance, and there is no reason for countries to simply switch from the soviet to american ammo without politics being involved.

[@timothygaffney621]

but the little girl sniper didn't have an AK 47, she had a VZ58.

[@xxxod]

pretty much the same thing

[@vitpokorny6563]

@@xxxod not even close

[@John-sr2hr]

​@@vitpokorny6563 kinda close. at least in looks

[@TylerHulan]

All of the AKs in the movie are VZ58s. Since they couldn't source any while filming the "Vietnam" portion of the movie.

[@Skautcz05]

​@@TylerHulan well vz. 58s were supplied for Vietcong soldiers

[@jessejohnson159]

The chambers of the newer M-16's were also hard chrome plated to help stay cleaner. I enlisted in 1970 and was informed of the improvements made to the M-16. After 50 years, I may not remember all the upgrades, but I knew of the powder fouling and that no cleaning kits were initially issued. Damned terrible for those soldiers that died because of these issues. 😭 About half of the basic training group I was with went to Vietnam. I had all their names recorded on a graduation photo. After I retired and computers were able to access the internet's Vietnam records, was very happy none of the soldiers in that class died in Vietnam! 🥰

[@tugrulgul570]

Why they fought? Why they died?...

[@Athoroughgamer]

​@@tugrulgul570 because of the draft that forced guys to join the military

[@tugrulgul570]

@@Athoroughgamer because of the the fascist pentagon and goverment that caused millions of death in southasia middle east, and thousands of young americans died

[@tugrulgul570]

@@Athoroughgamer ı know it is sad my friend,ı dont hate americans ı bealive mpst of theö aree nice people,just sad about young people who killed by usa soviets and all greatpowrs u know

[@jessejohnson159]

@Rebel Crump You and all the people that support those in the Armed Forces are welcome! I did enjoy my time serving. 🫡

[@Adiscretefirm]

It wasn't new powder, it was the Army's refusal to use the powder the designer called for because they had tons of the old stuff already in inventory.

[@joshm9782]

They also knew the old powder would cause the issue as it was noted to be an issue when the m16 went through trials.

[@dillonventola408]

Yea, it's the never ending story of Vietnam. I'd be more concerned with the myth that most vietcong used aks. Most used left over ww2 wepons such as sks's or ppshs.

[@pipebombpete.6861]

Sks was invented after ww2

[@dillonventola408]

@@pipebombpete.6861 You're right, I was thinking of the svt

[@luger_Mann]

Also used alot of left over french weapons from the time of their occupation

[@judegrant6664]

I urge everybody to read an article in the magazine "Soldier of Fortune", October 1982, detailing not only the history of the M16, but also the history of the political opposition to it's adoption. The author of the article named names and recommended charges of treason against the adversaries of it's adoption. VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE.

[@joekurtz8303]

Who was the Author? of the article, frequently read magazine back in the day

[@judegrant6664]

I read the article when it was published. Sorry, but I don't recall the author's name after so many years, but I made a mental note for October 1982 in case I wanted to find that article again.

[@JoeB-cp8lr]

What's new ,right leave it to a politician

[@dashingdahlias8873]

Joker would have had a cleaning kit though because the Tet Offensive took place in 1968

[@ralphalvarez5465]

Then he pulls out the Colt 1911 .45 after she tries to light him up... But thankfully Raftman did his PMCS and his M16 worked like a champ

[@RobbieNguyen]

​@@ralphalvarez5465 John Browning saving lives since 1911 🙏.

[@astronomicalgamer205]

​@@RobbieNguyen*taking*

[@ghulsey45]

My uncle was a sniper in the Marines. He talked about this same thing and the barrel overheating. He said that if he could grab an AK off a dead VC he would use it as well until he could fix his M16. He said they would put a condom over the end of the barrel to help keep water and dirt from getting down the barrel He also felt that upper brass were embarrassed to see American soldiers using a Russian weapon so they hurried to get the cleaning kits out. He liked the AK so much he tried to break one he had down in pieces and ship it home before he came home but his like others were confiscated.

[@christopherbertolotti2472]

I have the M16 A1

[@christopherbertolotti2472]

I had M16 A1 then I had the A2 which wasn't much better weapon did not need a bolt assist and I had the 203 Mountain under it so little bit heavier than the M16 without it but hey we got a big boy and 82nd Airborne was please know that I could be a caiman expert with that damn grenade launcher

[@mikebowen3315]

Most of the jamming problems associated with the early m16 series was failure to extract the fired casing. Dead soldiers were often found with a half assembled cleaning rod beside them trying to poke out the stuck brass. The problem was solved by installing a more powerful extraction spring. A 10 cent fix saved lives. I ran an arms room at ft benning in the early 80s and i found an old box of the old springs in an old desk.

[@usmc-veteran73-77]

The M-16 had issues. You had to keep it clean so it would not jam. Semper Fi from an old Marine Sergeant.

[@arturg.j.167]

Don't you need to keep all guns clean for it not to jam??

[@usmc-veteran73-77]

@Artur G. J. yes, that is correct. But the M-16 rifle had to be Super Super Clean, especially the "Bolt." Seemed like the bolt would build up carbon real fast.

[@daveb.4268]

The early M16's had cartrage's that would expand in the bore and after the extractor would tear the rim off the spent cartridge, than the bolt would try to feed another round into the now rimless and un-abstracted previous shell.🤭 Also the first M16's did not have the forward assist. Semper Fi, Bro.

[@usmc-veteran73-77]

@Dave B. agreed. Also the original M-16 did not have the "RING" around the Flash Suppressor. There was 3 points which opened metal "C " rations cans, then one of the points would break off.

[@roam300]

Kinda dumb to make a rifle that needs be super clean so it wouldn’t jam and have it as standard issue and give it to a bunch of grunts that are going through jungles and swamps and expect no problems

[@noneyabusiness8394]

My grandfather told me about that. He was a non combatant but still got shot at and mortared like everyone so when a buddy of his came back on base and offered him one of the Ak-47s he’d “liberated” in the bush my grandfather happily took it and always grabbed it over the m-16

[@pecetabla8042]

Yes, this was very common on the start of the M16, this caused a lot of friendly fire, so the military finally adopted the original M16 (they changed the gunpowder and something in the barrel of the rifle on the start, which caused a lot of jam)

[@CaptainsDen]

The whole problem is when desk jockeys and bean counters are allowed to make decisions about things they know nothing about.

[@lordkreigs1978]

There were cleaning kits available however, there were not individual cleaning kits in the butt stock of each rifle initially. They figured that out and fixed the problem. They also added a forward assist on the M1 A1 variant that you could slam with the butt of your hand, seating the bolt fully, if it failed to seat on its own. But the original versions issued to the troops were crap later models were extremely reliable.

[@johnkertzman3223]

Movie fact the gun the Vietnamese sniper was using wasn't an AK-47 it was a CZ vz58!

[@almaadams3631]

Thank you. AK fan boys can cry all they want. The VZ58 is the better weapon. Maybe the Walther Lothar barrels ?

[@donaldmartin4980]

The barrel twist originally was 1/14 this contributed to tumbling bullets and missed targets , they took it to 1/12 it helped a little . Today most M-16 variants are 1/7 or 1/8, with a few at 1/9 to stabilize bullets better.

[@Pilgrimm21]

"significant issues" is a definite understatement!

[@rickeyb8812]

A Vietnam vet at the local VA hospital told me if they smoked a Vietcong and could get his AK they would and throw the POS-16 in the creek! He also said there are 35 countries that has the AK-47 on their flag.

[@shooter7734]

Yes they would just throw away a rifle they were signed for and responsible for It's amazing the bullshit people spout off and believe

[@Kevlar_soul]

Dad was in Nam. Said lot of soldiers would tape a metal rod to their rifle that helped deal with jams. Sometime you see this in old videos of the war.

[@ecay]

There's a whole lot more to that story about the M16 then what most people understand or even be told it was not introduced into the military as a replacement until much later. It was something that was purchased sent to Vietnam and the new rifles worked beautifully but the military didn't do certain things. This wasn't even a military production rifle, but there were certain things they didn't have done like chrome lining, the barrel, chrome lining the chamber which is crucial in certain areas of the world, mostly jungles The rifle was developed. Test fired with a certain type of ammunition and a certain powder, but then sent in the field with a completely different ammunition and a completely different powder which caused problems. They were very ammo sensitive. This was also done deliberately by the military because they had surplus powder from the 1940s and they wanted to use that powder but they wanted the weapons to pass inspection so they used what it was developed with and tuned with and that it ran the best with and then they send it to Vietnam to use a completely different setup. Different powder different ammo. The reason there was no cleaning kit sent was because this rifle was told in the military and even in testing didn't need a cleaning kit it would run without one so the military wouldn't send one. Some of the problems they had was stuck cases. That's why you'll see cleaning rods put together and and strapped to the side of the rifle and that so the soldier can quickly kick out the case. The stuck case that was caused by pitting in the chamber because there was no chrome lining in the chamber. That problem ended when they chrome lined the chamber. This was not an M16 specific problem. This was a problem that was with any rifle that was seen action in a jungle environment by the late 1960s, all of the issues that was accompanying the M16 rifle had been largely corrected and the rifle ran really well. The problem is that the reputation was surpassing and continuing forward because it was told by one soldier to another soldier to another soldier and the how bad that rifle was went well into the '90s. My dad who served in Vietnam in 71 and 72 refused to carrying M16 because of the reputation but all of the problems had been solved by the time he served. He also refused to own an AR-15 years later when he got out of the service because of the problems the M16 had

[@3starperfectdeer233]

My grandpa who was a Seal he hated the m16 with a passion and saw too many good men die because of "that cock sucking gun jam on them in a firefight. That's why we kept our m14s"

[@Emperorwingwong]

The issue wasn’t with the powder fouling. The issue was the burn rate of the powder. Thee gas system was tuned for the older 5.56 powder pressure curve. But the US Army didn’t tell Eugene Stoner about the change. Hence, the massive early issues.

[@ronrobertson59]

The M-16 I qualified with in 1971 had no forward asist. It jammed so much I had to go back to the range the next day with a different BCT company with a different rifle. I qualified expert but didn't trust the M-16 until about 1980.

[@blackdog258]

Here's the question though what type of malfunction cause if was double feeds that's caused by worn out magazines not the rifle it's self

[@DerGhostRanger]

The AK model was also designed off of the M1 Garand which was often referred to as the American rifle due to how iconic it was and how well built it was. The Soviets noticed this and Mikhail spent quite some time working on it.

[@herbwells6218]

Fun fact, during the battle of the Little Bighorn (and other battles) soldiers were having issues with their Spencer carbine jamming because the war department (in it's infinite wisdom) decided to save money by issuing soldiers ammunition that was made of wound copper shells. When the breach got hot, the copper shells expanded, and the trooper was forced to use a knife to clear the breach in the middle of a fire fight. This was just 90 years earlier.

[@vigilantobserver8389]

Some entrepreneur (s) sold the indians repeating rifles, while the Army thought the breach loading rifles would be more accurate. Consequently, no repeating rifles were issued to soldiers.

[@herbwells6218]

@@vigilantobserver8389 some unit commander's purchased repeating rifle's out of pocket.

[@herbwells6218]

@V Cavalry used the 45-55 carbine, if it wasn't the Spencer, that's fine, the point is that what I said was true, troopers were found Bowie knife in one hand, carbine in the other tip broken off of the knife with a jammed cartridge in the chamber

[@scorpionlxvi]

Not Spencer's Springfield's trapdoor carbines blacpowder fouling was always a problem the Brits had similar problems with that martini

[@hwatson069]

Springfield Mdl. 1873 Carbine @@scorpionlxvi

[@Bill-yy3ck]

We were still sharing the cleaning kit amongst ourselves as of 1969. It wasn't one man, one kit.

[@mattlackey8159]

It was the old ball powder that tended to clog up the gas tube. Stick powder burned faster, cleaner and tended to pass right by the gas port at the end of the barrel.

[@dannynye1731]

The rifle was designed to use IMR powder, the ball powder was WW2 surplus, with a short shelf life and left a hydroscopic residue. The USAF bought the right ammo and had no problems generally

[@garymurt9112]

Friend of mine was pissed when he had to give up his m-14 for the m-16. He got three purple hearts 💜 twice from wounds from the enemy once from a neighboring soldier's m-16 that jammed and discharged in the attempt to unjam it.

[@hidel308]

Which is why the AK-47 is still the more reliable of the two despite decades of improvements on the AR platform.

[@mag5235]

Joker is a marine and actually a Sgt at this point in the story.

[@lionpridedivisionyt1388]

Did joker die?

[@joeyporto2461]

@@lionpridedivisionyt1388nah he lives, watch the movie it’s excellent

[@TylerHulan]

It's funny that even though it was deliberately sabotaged from day one by the US government, it's still the main service rifle of US forces. Goes to show how good of a design it really is.

[@scottwages517]

This is a classic case of military and intelligence should never be spoken in the same sentence.

[@marka.graffakasnakebitenat3736]

Just like intelligence and The President shouldn't be used in the same sentence.

[@mikehenthorn1778]

not true, buddy was MI then counter intel. the problem then as still now is the intel guys ( the ones who go out in the field with a 5 man security group and talk bad men into giving up someone else ) then give the info to the officers. when the Col. finds out you want to hit someone who is in a different AO he then passes that info over maybe. by the time a hit is planned the trap is set.

[@Dominik189]

The whole jamming of the M16 was the fault of the ordinance, they remanufactured ammo using a powder that was shown to have adverse effects and increased fowling then went against the recommendation of Eugene Stoner, the designer, and opted to not chrome line the bore. With correct propellant and a chrome lined bore the AR rifle really doesn't require cleaning, it's always nice to do, but it'll happily chug along without jamming for several thousands of rounds without cleaning.

[@pavelmorozov6599]

The rifles are perfectly reliable. More reliable than an ak. The problem was with the powder in the cartridges.

[@kokomo9764]

We can all thank Robert Mcnamara. Another significant issue was that the chrome was removed from the firing chamber lip, which increased the fouling. But saved money!

[@calvingreene90]

M16 jamming problem was solved within months but that was long enough to set its reputation for a generation.

[@scout360pyroz]

yeah, certain incidents cemented it in the heads of the soldiers. a marine sniper patrol once went in to assist an infantry column that was ambushed and split in two. They had M-14's they had acquired via connections to Recon. They found multiple soldiers who were killed in the middle of clearing jams out of their M-16s, and when they ran low on ammo and swapped to some M-16s they picked from the dead, those jammed quite a bit as well.

[@CountArtha]

Minor correction: They didn't use "new gunpowder" in the M16. They were _supposed_ to use new powder but the government wanted to use up their old powder first, which was what caused the problem.

[@dlg15]

Actually its deeper then that... the military is the reason why the rifle didnt function correctly because they tried to cut corners on the rifle and ammo .. that's a historical fact

[@kasonutz541]

You forgot to mention they also fixed many of the issues with the introduction of the M16A1 which was very reliable, and well received. If you doubt this just remember the M16A1 saw service well into the 1990s and most US combat troops fielded the A1 more than the A2 in some cases

[@carreenbogden]

This is fkn criminal. I mean, no wonder no one wanted to go that war. That is despicable. I mean, send these kids to war with shoddy weapons and no cleaning kits? Wow.

[@joshm9782]

I’m fairly certain it was worse as not only did they know about most of the issues, but most of them were caused/made worse by people in the army who wanted the m16 to be rejected and for the army to go back to the m14. e.g. they knew that it did need cleaning kits, they knew the powder caused excess fouling and the original design including the chrome lining that was readied to fix issues with corrosion.

[@Trucker-Belly]

An illegal war all based on the false flag gulf of Tonkin incident which was declassified on the anniversary as a false flag. The US blew up its own ship and blamed it on the enemy. Congress never declared war, 58,000 Americans died for no reason and millions of Vietnamese and Chinese.

[@docevans9022]

As a vet, it's incomprehensible to not have the resources to clean your weapon. Mind blowing.

[@power_plushi_emperor97]

That's why the M16A1 is a thing

[@iamapineapple8456]

What’s weird is the fact that it’s jokers rifle is the one that jams which is the M-16 A1 that fixed most of the problems are talking about and not one of the other soldiers rifles as some of them can be seen using the earlier M 16 variant

[@donm2067]

M-14 is a piston driven system, m-16 is direct impingement which fouls the rifle faster.

[@blackdog258]

The m14 is way less reliable than the ar platform

[@donm2067]

@@blackdog258 ah yes, because the M16 was so well known for reliability in Vietnam. I own a Sig 516, it's piston driven, not DI. The military put a paper a decade ago saying the only reason the M16, m4 didn't have short stroke pistons was top brass considered it a Communist concept in guns. Even tho the garand was piston driven, helped win WW2 and designed by a Canadian. If you want to talk guns, history and designers, I'm your huckleberry.

[@blackdog258]

@@donm2067 yeah using bad ammo and not maintaining the weapon will do that also constantly reusing disposable mags. If you want a comparison here you go kzbin.info/www/bejne/horJeKRnrtBpbLMsi=Up-33WhoNyVhWyKZ

[@corditesniffer8020]

I know a couple Australian Vietnam Vets who were around for the trouble period for the M16 in combat and they were completely sworn off it seeing it fail for the yanks meanwhile our L1A1 SLR rifles worked quite well for us so we chugged along with that

[@farmallskittle]

But the battle for hue city was in 1968 so he would have had a cleaning kit

[@thedozeroperatorman]

Cleaning kits were not issued because it was supposed to be "self-cleaning." The prototype was made of high grade aircraft aluminum. But that was too expensive for uncle Sam. The higher grade aluminum did not jam, didn't need Cleaning. They didn't issue it and many paid the price for it

[@Totemparadox]

That's bullshit

[@Rafficarian]

Did anyone notice Animal is wearing belts of 3006 ammunition? Not 308 for his M60

[@PlutoProtogen]

My grandpa carried an m16 in vietnam and he said he never had any major issues with his gun jamming, he just cleaned it the same as you would any other rifle

[@CyberLou]

"The AK-47 being considered a more reliable weapon, as you can drag that thing through mud and it wouldn't jam" -Every Guy who has never used an AK-47

[@digitaal_boog]

Well, it could. As long as the safety lever is up, you can do whatever you want to an AK and it won’t really jam. Obviously if you crammed mud and whatnot into the working parts it would stop but under normal conditions or even fairly extreme conditions it would still run

[@blackpaint9093]

I used AK-47 while in the army in communist Albania. Never did i see a AK jam, and we all were required to shoot 10 bullets a day. The gun was thrown into mud and water every now and then to check that every soldier kept the gun good and going, since the "maintenance" i.e cleaning was the soldiers' prerogative

[@primeministersinister625]

this isnt true aks dont like mud period wether open or closed@@digitaal_boog

[@brucekendall9873]

Not a single video about this issue ever gets it totally right

[@Michael-rg7mx]

BS alert. The rifles were recalled immediately. The new M16a1 worked very well. very few were issued. less than 1 million.

[@griz312]

This page again misses a lot of factors; the M16 was deliberately sabotaged that cleaning kits couldn’t even fix. It wasn’t chromed lined, the powder left a lot more residue that would fowl up quick and troops were told that the Gun needed little to no cleaning.

[@Michael-rg7mx]

@griz312 There are billions of guns without chrome lining. All competition guns don't use it. There were plenty of cleaning kits. But the rods were too big. They were .308 instead of .223. Most guys had dad send a 4 piece .22 cal rod. Draftees mostly don't have the same dedication that regular army do. Someone said that the caliber won't work with certain powders. Wrong. They increased the chamber neck and over all length to make room for debris. They also added the forward assist to push past a jamb. The a1 version. Guys fought in the jungle during ww2. They just didn't whine so much. The Marines that landed on Guadalcanal lost their supply ship. There was no food for the first month except what they could steal from the enemy. No change of clothes. And no toilet paper.

[@griz312]

@@Michael-rg7mx I don’t see how WW2 vets not complaining about a dire situation has any correlation to the M16 being deliberately sabotaged by it’s own Military Brass. Second, yes it does matter what power you use the Left over WW2 powder stock was used on the 5.56. Stoner flat out said not to deploy the M16 since they were essentially experimenting unproven results and taking out the Chrome line just made it worse.

[@Michael-rg7mx]

@griz312 Wow, you're making many points but no proof for those distant thoughts.

[@griz312]

@@Michael-rg7mx IMR 4475 was specifically used in WW2 and was the same powder used for 5.56 in vietnam that caused a lot of the problems. Remington produced ammo for the Army and Air Force before the Army took over ammo distribution and that’s when they made the changes.

[@eatingelizabethsfrizbee]

It was a combination of switching powders and belief the M16 was self cleaning.

[@reqschannel]

don't forget that they were also sent with slightly off ammunition size causing basic ejection jams.

[@crumply5959]

It wasnt a problem with cleaning kits because the m14 cleaning kits troops were issued can be used to clean the m16. The problem was the ammunition used causing fouling which gummed up the system. On top of that, most troops trained with the m14 in bootcamp and other follow on schools and never touched an m16 until they stepped foot into vietnam. Lack of familiarity and training caused malfunctions as well.

[@GotDemRaisins]

The M16 wasn't a shitty rifle it was very reliable when you had the tools to clean it, my grandfather served in Vietnam and his M16 didn't jam once as he cleaned it after each use.

[@TrumpIsTheMan]

When I was in the army, we used to call the M-16 a toy made by Mattel. It was so cheap and jammed up so much.

[@louwilson0906]

The M-16 I used in Basic at Ft Lewis, Washington had stamped on the side of the receiver was...MATTEL

[@mwbright]

It was the old powder in the M-16, and not the "new powder".

[@johncitizen3927]

And chrome the inner barrel..

[@under_archive9179]

a lot of soldiers where found dead clutching there rifles not because they had no ammo left but because there gun jammed

[@donaldlynch5861]

When I was there in 67-68 I always had the cleaning rod fixed at the ready in my belt if I needed it. That was the only way you could clear the shell left due to a jam. And it did jam on me several times!

[@fungus3484]

Gotta love peoples dramatization of the AK acting like it doesn’t also need maintenance, if you take care of any gun it is just as reliable as an AK

[@MilkTea101]

No. There are guns that are notoriously bad. To say that any gun is as reliable as Kalashnikov is a dumb statement.

[@navret1707]

Thanks to MacNemarah’s (sp?) bean counters. “We can x$ on each rifle if we delete the cleaning kits.” Cost a lot of guys their lives.

[@nichevo1]

I feel almost certain that the Tet Offensive happened after 1967.

[@Yuri-Raza]

Marines have a small budget and usually get the hand me downs from the Army.

[@shooter7734]

January '68

[@josecajigas1578]

The TeT started January 31, 1968. It was the after I returned from R&R.

[@PaulWade87]

A marine had a lot more issues than that to cope with & they had to improvise adapt & overcome!!!!! God bless you & thank you.

[@tonyfknb3896]

It was the Nato ammo not the gun, but yes they did have to be cleaned thoroughly to help. And also if you just loaded 18 rds instead of 20 it would prevent the jamming, from spring issues in the magazines

[@TheBiggestIron]

5.56x45mm NATO wasn't a thing till the 80s as m855. It was just 556 loading 18 vs 20 didn't do anything except help girls push a magazine in on a closed bolt.

[@RETRIBUTION2234]

The different powder could've caused more residue but in general it was the gas system that caused the jams

[@ElijahCinco51484]

This is the first non-realist you’ve done in a while

[@garytotty3971]

The Hue scene was during my time in I-Corp. A cleaning kit was always reserved for the REMF's. I was issued one of the so called bad ones. Never jammed one time, an I probably put three or four thousand rounds thru it, but I cleaned my rifle every day. Jams were caused by several things and not what you say (will give you an exception). The rifle used a locking lug setup at the front of the bolt carrier and rear of the barrel. Unburnt powder would get in the lugs causing a jam. The real issue was magazine quality. Springs would weaken when loaded with twenty rounds. Eighteen seemed to fix the issue. REMFs got all the thirty round mags so I don't know about them. Every style rifle had it's own set of issues. AK didn't jam, but you couldn't hit anything at the hundred yard mark. Were also known for sending the bolt back thru your eyeball. You could shoot dirty ammo with them while the M16 didn't like that. What you should whine and cry about is the 50 caliber machine gun

[@leroyducharme2477]

The army bought the cheapest ammo available and caused the issue with the rifle!

[@michaellaros499]

Also fully loading a 20 round magazine would cause jams in the early magazines,they started downloading to 18 rounds that stopped the jamming after the cleaning kits were issued

[@robertjay1179]

That is fucking ridicules! Shame on the ARMY for not adhering to the basic rules of owning a gun.

[@geraldwingster5487]

The came the forward assist assembly which made it the M16A1

[@MensaGiraffe]

I was issued the A1, A2 and A3 during my service

[@alexstephenson6641]

I always wondered why he didn't use his side arm which every soldier should've had if I remember correctly.

[@mobiusZero2]

The script writing he has to die, the Vetkong woman that killed him, were to be headed by one of the characters, but that last part was scrap

[@sooryan_1018]

Call of Duty didn't exist back then

[@Yuri-Raza]

One of the underlying messages of the movie is that Joker wasn’t fully broken down during Boot Camp and thus wasn’t as hardened as the other marines. Him killing the VC girl at the end earning him the 1000-yard stare signified the end of his innocence.

[@Yuri-Raza]

Also, I take it that you don’t have any military experience at all. Most people would not have the best reaction being in that situation. Also, regular ‘soldiers’ don’t receive handguns (if they did where’s mine? 😡) the movie depicts ‘MARINES’ who in fact do get handguns.

[@alexstephenson6641]

@@Yuri-Raza Like I said "if I remember correctly" apparently I didn't. Also I wasn't in the Military I wanted to but I was born 1 kidney and asthma so I was told I couldn't by recruiters. So I'm sorry if I'm wrong. I'm only human!.

[@1911acolt1]

It wasn’t a “new powder”It was the AR15 was designed at that time to operate on a different powder (IMR) with its own pressure curve…They used the old ball powder they had a lot of stock of..Nearly all the issues were from that decision.Once the m16 was set up for the ball powder(and given cleaning kits)All issues basically stopped.

[@garydouglas9413]

The problems with the M16 were never solved. Millions of dollars were spent trying to fix it. It was still being complained about in Gulf War I in 1991, in Afghanistan, and in Iraq in the early 2000's.

[@MJ-we9vu]

In that case Joker should have had a cleaning kit because Tet took place in 1968.

[@RickSanchez167]

Issue wasnt cleaning, the issue was the ammo they used was trash, and the magazines were worse than trash. Once those were replaced, it was fine

[@herbwells6218]

It was both, because the ammo was dirtier, the weapons needed to be cleaned more often.

[@carlsteffens]

The mahs were designed as a one use throw away but some people didn't like that so they collected the used mags and reloaded them

[@willnotcomply1328]

They used different powder and a lighter grain bullet, all of which added to the problem.

[@smileyjack6621]

It's a fucking shame the military forced young boys to go die to a stupid war and didn't even have the decency to provide them with good shit in the beginning. If a Vietnam vet happens to see this comment, it's been long overdue but welcome home soldier. Thank you for your forced service. You did the best you could❤

[@RobbieNguyen]

and the public hated all the vets that came home. No matter what.

[@HappyHermitt]

Lube your weapon. Don't leave it bone dry. Especially when in use.

[@johndotter351]

ANIMAL LOVER MY HERO!

[@vincepurpura8905]

"I don't want a beauty queen, I just want my M-14!"

[@haydenadams3625]

“Switching to you secondary is faster”

[@michaelkindy3850]

As designed, it would have been fine. Attempting to cut costs, DOD opted for cheaper powder and to not chrome line the barrels. When they started building them as Eugene Stoner designed them, they worked fine.

[@davidwomack5982]

I know this all too well. The the AK was a superior weapon with the built in cleaning rod….

[@dave623]

The Battle of Hue depicted in the movie was in 1968

[@trench_raider8247]

Hence why the AK will forever be the better option, simple reasoning is if it stops working because it's unable to function due to being dirty by it's own ammunition it's not a good rifle, a good rifle is a work house that you can drag to hell and back and still works.

[@thespartanamongus1121]

Until you start using stick powder instead of ball powder and chrome line the barrel.

[@sfcwood]

The AK is a reliable weapon, no doubt about that. But its also notoriously inaccurate. It has terrible sights. The compensator does not account for barrel rise very well. Magazine change is not nearly as smooth as the M16 either. Of course this is comparing late model 60s era rifles. Today, the modern versions are pretty evenly matched I think.

[@patrickhorvath2684]

​@@sfcwood I agree. 2 tours Airborne Infantry. Ran 5000 rounds a year through my M-16A2. Never a live ammo malfunction.

[@trench_raider8247]

@@thespartanamongus1121 okay? And? I can throw any shitty ammo and don't care if it has a chrome lined barrel it still works while you still have to maintain and baby the m16.

[@trench_raider8247]

@@patrickhorvath2684 try to use it in a WW1 like situation (similar to Ukraine) and come back to me

[@HiveQu33n]

"IF YOUR KILLER INSTINCT IS NOT CLEAN AND STRONG, YOU HESITATE AT THE MOMENT OF TRUTH!"

[@invisibleone8344]

Unfortunately, the AK47 is a superior weapon system 😔

[@robertehatten4847]

The parts on the M16 had such a close tolerance that they needed to be cleaned every day after use…..That’s why we needed to take it apart and put it back together blind folded

[@darrylhayes3662]

Truth Be Told. Constant Cleaning is Required Especially Win Regularly Set On Automatic.

[@redcarpeteater6903]

My father-in-law said sometimes you were better off using the M16 as a club because of jams and misfires.

[@remcodenouden5019]

That "AK" looks more like a VZ.58 with that upwards angled bolt handle