The Vanishing in the Lost Woods - Zelda Theory

Grog.
The Curse of the Lost Woods Theory:
• The Curse of the Lost ...
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[@adrianrodriguezdiaz596]

This has nothing to do with the theory itself, but I've just realised that maybe Grog's sister takes care of Cuccos despite being allergic to them because she knows her brother finds comfort in their company. And we've been making fun of her for years. Best sister ever.

[@monroerobbins7551]

Dude, that explains why she does it so well. She’s doing it in honor of her missing brother.

[@drswag0076]

we don't know the severity of her allergy. she doesn't show signs of histaminic swelling as seen in someone having a nut allergy so the feathers might give her a bit of hay fever at best.

[@FuryMcpurey]

@@drswag0076 Also polygons could factor into why we don't see it.

[@drswag0076]

@@FuryMcpurey as well as the fact that she just gets hives.

[@AnonymousDragonWolf]

Hey now. I'm not some jackass. I never made fun of her. I thought it was a "you gotta do what you gotta do" situation.

[@cryptfly]

I like to think, maybe a little grim, that he went into the lost woods intending to die but somehow found himself in Termina and found exactly what he needed there and lived happily ever after with his birds.

[@hanburgundy4317]

Makes me think his bags were maybe filled with Cucco eggs.

[@theoaremevano3227]

Rod Serling: Submitted for your approval- a man desperate to get away, who wandered into the woods searching for an end to his life, and found instead, the outer edges of- The Twilight Zone. Sounds like the ending to one of those episodes for sure. XD

[@ForeverDegenerate]

@cryptfly Well, Skull Kid IS a Lost Woods Guide in addition to being its Guardian. So it's possible that Skull Kid guided Grog through The Lost Woods and that The Lost Woods extends much further than we have been shown, all the way to Termina. The Lost Woods is, as we all a know, a very mysterious place with power that defies explanation. Perhaps the reason for its undocumented and inconsistent power is due to the fact that it's a nexus where the Power of the Triforce/Godesses/Hylia and the Power of Termina's Guardian Deities meet?

[@drjohobo177]

That's so sad but also so beautiful to think about. Those cucco's bring him peace.

[@bryangarza254]

@@theoaremevano3227 I read this comment in his voice lol

[@Cole23x]

One connection I put together is this: Grog loves animals. The saw he has is called the poachers saw. It belonged to his father. His father is wearing tiger skin pants. His disdain for his parents may stem from that. He took the saw possibly as a form of rebellion, and in a way, to protect animals. At least thats what I gathered.

[@MonsterMaze]

Ooooh that IS good!

[@Cole23x]

@@MonsterMaze thanks!

[@BurrntPurp]

That is so deep I'm adding it to my head cannon lol

[@rockk9753]

The old hag in the potion shop (his mother) is petting a little baby tiger actually... huh

[@CosmicTornado1]

Brilliant. Simple and elegant

[@homerman76]

Something else to note about Termina Grog is that he randomly mentions how he "can't run like he used to," which implies he ran away from something in the past (his family if this theory is correct.)

[@violetlight1548]

I noticed that detail too. It really gives more evidence to this theory and makes you feel happy for Grog in Termina and how his life there (if he is the same character as from Ocarina of Time) ended up going better for him.

[@Zerolink30]

At least one version off Grog had a happy ending if that's the case..... Adult timeline Grog however lol RIP

[@calebpeyton4704]

Haha, I just made the same comment before reading your comment. It makes sense to me that that is what he is implying.

[@dashua1735]

I think it just implies that he was once young before but now he's too old

[@zeldaenby224]

It's because of the bunny hood, he used to wear it and now he doesn't

[@aigocharisma]

A side-note: in America, at least, calling your wife Old Lady is a common trope of rough-and-tough biker guys. Old Man is used by the female partners of said biker guys.

[@biggameboy]

I was about to comment about the Old Lady bit as well. I have never heard anyone refer to their mother in this way. I have never heard of anyone referring to their male partner as "Old Man," only as a way of referring to their father.

[@jeremiah6945]

I hear older people in general using the term regardless if they are biker men/ women or not. But that's just me.

[@jeremiah6945]

@@biggameboy Older folk sometimes refer to their spouse when they say "my old lady" or "my old man" but I can see where you're coming from. As a guy usually we refer to our dad when we think of "my old man"

[@WintrBorn]

Also common in the south - I’ve been referred to as my husband’s old lady by both him and others.

[@AntiAnnihilator5000]

I'd like to add that there's a distinction to be made between saying "my old lady" as the master craftsman did and saying "the old lady" (the most likely alternative way of phrasing it). I think the latter actually has a stronger tendency to be used in the context meaning wife as addressing a person's age (particularly a woman's) is generally considered disparaging in English-speaking societies, so the impersonal phrasing tends to soften the impact of it - which makes it the favored form of "old lady" as informally meaning wife. Of course "old lady" is also just an apt description, so there may be no disparaging intent. If there is no disparaging intent with the use of the words "old lady" under either phrasing it would be more likely that the master craftsman is referring to his mother. "My old lady" can honestly go either way, but the avoidance of the form that would have more likelihood to be read and interpreted to mean spouse combined with the context clues regarding the age of the master craftsman's children seem to lean strongly towards the model of family described in this video. If we ignore those context clues, I'd say the wording is almost utterly ambiguous, though.

[@dalu_dalu]

I really enjoy the thought that such an ominous disappearance in OoT could have this whole other explanation…

[@papersonic9941]

Forests are associated with Suicide in Japan, and seeing how he's carrying a knife, I believe it's at least what he meant to do. However, hearing Cojiro might have made him change his mind.

[@crabwaluigi]

Hooo that’s a good theory

[@liviloo87]

Dude yes, I was thinking about suicide forest at the bottom of Mount Fuji as well, maybe that’s why they were inspired to make the lost woods.

[@TownPortals]

None of you watched a fucking second of the video ay lmao.

[@BucketMans]

@@TownPortals you don't need to watch a video to make a theory

[@TownPortals]

@@BucketMans Lmfao.. posting it in the comment section of a video where he fucking addresses that exactly... cmon man yeah thats tacky.

[@ventusvindictus]

I like this more wholesome version of Grog's tale much more. It could be that his giving Link the mushroom for monster medicine was intended to throw people in Hyrule off his trail and make them assume he turned into a monster. Fado could have been in on it as the last person needed to spread the story, which was why she was so light about it. To her it's a joke.

[@InvaderGIR98]

Little kids really do be giggling when they lie lmao

[@gabrielshishido9965]

Poor Grog, he's almost like Hyrule's Squidward lol

[@blitsriderfield4099]

Poor Grog, he's named after alcohol

[@dell7013]

Or Eeyore

[@JulesThePsion]

Squidward still participated in his world's society, albeit grudgingly. He saw to his responsibilities-- he just hated doing it. Grog takes off into the wilderness and leaves society behind.

[@JulesThePsion]

@@blitsriderfield4099 if you're 'strayan

[@makiroll218]

Link answering the phone with SpongeBob voice: Hello? Could you call me later? I’m trying to be boring.” 😂😂

[@mashtonish]

non-botw theories are incredibly fun to learn about

[@General12th]

All Zelda theories are incredibly fun to learn about!

[@kacperwoch4368]

And botw ones are not?

[@theoaremevano3227]

@@kacperwoch4368 : It might be because a lot of them these days are likely centered around the sequel, and/or the existence of the upcoming sequel makes those theories a lot more open ended and speculative with less info than theories from finished games that people have just been debating for years with no further answers on the horizon. (That's just me guessing though since I didn't make the original post.) :)

[@mellowvalentine9354]

Agreed. BOTW doesn’t have any interesting theories to me.

[@Denkin_Donuts]

Botw has been milked because all the content creators have nothing to talk about because Nintendo won’t say shit. So if it isn’t a bullshit leak or rumor then it’s a speculative theory on some redundant topic.

[@xerxies8947]

You know it wasn't until recently that I realized the reason there is a traveling goron with the same name as your Link in MM is because Darunia named his son after Link...and it seems likely that either Link-Goron traveled between the two places somehow or that he is the terminian version that is still inexplicably named after a Link that doesn't exist in their world...maybe moving between the two worlds is more common than we expect it is and time warps between the two places.

[@MonsterMaze]

Interesting though!

[@user-jl7cz2pe6d]

Well apparently when Majora's Mask first came out, Termina wasn't an alternate dimension. Instead, it was just a faraway land.

[@greatersabre3135]

I doubt it was darunias son, as he is only a kid in the adult timeline and wasnt born in the child timeline where majoras masks takes place. I feel like the goron just had the same name so that the quest where you get the room key was available

[@Klyttorius]

@@greatersabre3135 Time in Termina could move differently though? If it is a different dimension after all. Maybe the portal into Termina doesn't take everyone to the same time there, as it's a portal warping space/time.

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

Like Narnia, Link-goro goes there as a child and becomes an old man in practically no time at all on the Hyrule side. Also the Skull Kid does all that stuff "in ancient times" then comes back to Hyrule for a month or two, then goes back and it's like 10,000 years later or something; it all lines up. It's a wild stab in the dark, but I don't see how it's falsifiable.

[@AarturoSc]

To the people citing the “I can’t run like I used to” line to add as a hint, it’s not the same context in the original Japanese text. He refers to him being unable to run around.

[@Varunic219]

Isn't that the same for the purpose of it's implications?

[@AarturoSc]

@@Varunic219 Not really. The words for those aren’t used in this context ever.

[@Zerolink30]

That line can be seen as context that he ran away from home to the lost woods, got hurt and is now a broken man in Termina. A happy but broken man, not like he could stroll thru the lost woods like walking thru a field of flowers.

[@AarturoSc]

@@Zerolink30 That’s a lot of mental gymnastics.

[@dashua1735]

​@Zoomer Waffen Grog doesn't have the Bremen Mask. He has to catch the chicks manually.

[@theking8347]

One little error: Tortus is Granny's son (and Anju's father), not her husband Her husband is another character simply called "Gampy"

[@BlaxeFrost-X]

Also wouldn't a son call his mother "my old lady"??

[@devenestes3234]

My old lady is a fairly out dated expression from the early to mid 1900’s referring to a man’s wife. it has a slightly negative connotation, similar to the phrases “the old ball and chain” and “the old battle axe” both of which are other offensive ways of referring to someone’s wife from a similar era. This would fit with Granny being his wife in game (and to him being a bad person).

[@yourfuturewaifu9061]

​@@devenestes3234 I thought this as well. That or as I was shrooming. Maybe both whos to say.

[@ShadowSora8491]

I was just about to point this out

[@jordanbridges]

@Deven Estes exactly. Makes me doubt some of this theory.

[@theoaremevano3227]

I always interpreted Fado's attitude as intentionally creepy on the part of the developers, but I like the idea of her actually covering for Grog instead a lot more. Nice to think of him finding someone else willing to be nice to him all the way out here. And it seems I was right about where you were going with this. :D

[@730ways]

I think it has more to do with the kokiri being fey/fairies. Fado doesn't "get" death. She can't die, doesn't grow old, and lives in a magical forest with her friends and a tree with a face. I never took it as creepy. It's just outside of her world.

[@schnek8927]

@@730ways ... which is a very common theme, especially in (but not restricted to) japenese fiction. Magical creatures simply not (excuse my french) *giving a single shit* about mortals, seeing them as inherently worthless or basically animals. (which makes them absolutely evil, but that's another topic) Whether that ignorance stems from simply not caring about "lesser" beings, or being unable to understand it (i doubt it, since humans can understand problems we don't face ourselves), it's still very common to portray things like fae and other magical beings as completely uncaring towards human death and suffering, and even seeing all humans as evil, or some other nonsense like that. :3

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

Hot take, Fado is covering for him because they're in a relationship. Sure it looks like pedophilia, but she's actually 98 years old... so _she_ was grooming _him._ So, still problematic AF... I don't even know where I was going with this... I'm tired...

[@TheFlameofIcarus]

I think the best theory about the Lost Woods is that it's never about being literally lost, but rather figuratively. Much in the vain of the Hero's Shade resembling a Stalfos because Link had lost his childhood and existed in a world he no longer belonged to. "Becoming lost" is not about you literally not knowing where you are, but about the state of your spirit. So then why would people who literally become lost turn into stalfos, or monsters, or spirits? The forest is certainly cursed. The fog and aura will try to break you. To disorient you. To make you give up hope of escaping. Only those with a lot of courage or focus can get through. I think it does a pretty good job explaining why there can be Hylian structures hidden in the forest. Who is more focused and determined than people trying to reach the Sacred Realm (if that's what you think the Forest Temple's OG Purpose was).

[@ArceusDX]

Tbf, the Happy Mask Salesman isn't exactly a normal Hylian, or even a Hylian at all.

[@dimebag124]

Care to elaborate?

[@Zerolink30]

Whatever you are thinking is just a theory you heard somewhere and possibly not a fact.

[@YngolSonofYsgramor]

Yeah, the red eyes give it away

[@hi-ougidemonfang]

He doesn’t even have an iris so he doesn’t have eye color at all. Unless you want to say it’s dark black like his tiny pupils. His eyes do go bloodshot when he’s upset. Causing the upper edges of his eyes to turn red. But that’s the whites of his eyes, not the iris which again is never shown.

[@mauricio7560]

In Majora's mask credits scene, the Happy mask salesman just vanishes slowly after saying farewell. I don't think it was ever explained how he did that

[@BSKustomz]

In a very informal blue collar way "old lady" would mean his wife, but I do agree that she's probably not Grog's mother. Grog probably took the saw from home and ventured off into the Lost woods to forage for things in a possibly less than legal manner after Ganondorf took over

[@ladyabaxa]

I've heard people refer to their spouse as old man/lady many times so I immediately assumed he was referring to a wife. I guess it's a regional thing.

[@BSKustomz]

@@ladyabaxa yeah they moved way up north and called it the "Santa Claus and his old lady" commune

[@felixc543]

There's a guy in BOTW in Kakariko who calls his wife as his "old lady" But I've definitely mostly heard "old man" to be someone's father I think it can go either way

[@kolterbraun1456]

@@felixc543 I've heard "old man" go both ways but I've never heard "old lady" used for someone's mother.

[@chadd990]

I had the same thought. It might be a regional thing, as someone else pointed out, but it's a term used in pop culture as well. It think it might be more of a time period thing, rather than regional.

[@Axecon1]

I wonder if sending Link back to his child era was the trigger to open a world bridge between Hyrule and Termina within the Child Timeline. Grog could have been to the Lost Woods multiple times and had a lucky crossing when this world bridge was open during the Child Timeline. No trigger to the world bridge opening would have occurred in the Adult Timeline and thus Grog's occasional trips to the Lost Woods eventually led to him getting lost and continuously wandering the Woods.

[@AntiAnnihilator5000]

I've got to disagree with the argument that another means of committing /self would have been easier or more appropriate for Grog. Within the context of a family-friendly Nintendo 64 game released in 1998, I can scarcely think of a more apt way to allude to the possibility without crossing the line. The combination of lore that makes it clear that his fate is certain being communicated to the player in close proximity to his disappearance and context clues that suggest he was miserable in life is actually a really elegant and understated way of handling that topic and his character. He's a very depressed individual, so it makes sense that he'd pursue it in a passive and solitary way even if that draws the process out. Going into the woods to commit /self is one of the more well known ways of doing so in Japan (and more fitting considering we're not talking about a dishonored warrior and trains don't exist in this setting) so there's a decent chance that this implication would be even more obvious to the game's primary target audience. It could be that he entered the woods with that intent and either got cold feet or found that the rumors were false and then ended up in Termina, where he could find his peace removed from the problems he felt he had in Hyrule, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to infer that Grog's initial intent was to /self.

[@jonahdunch4056]

Yes! Good point about the forest suicide trope in Japan.

[@AarturoSc]

/self? Just type “suicide”.

[@AntiAnnihilator5000]

@@AarturoSc I would, but I don't trust KZbin to let me without at least throwing my comment into purgatory.

[@zoroastorium2835]

It is fitting that such an individual is located in the realm of depression proximal to the Great Bay.

[@grenciamars4876]

I wonder if maybe... this is a stretch, but possibly he took something with the intent to /self (poison?) and Link stumbled upon him in a moment of regret, and so must try to save him before he ultimately succumbs to the poison. Total conjecture of course

[@jesse1941]

I love this theory. That disappearance in OOT always upset me as a kid. I felt so bad for the cuccoo guy.

[@luigiboi4244]

Poor Grog, all he needed was a proper social circle.

[@thecommonman9524]

I honestly believe he went to the Lost Woods to start anew, and ended up stumbling into Termina and decided that it was the perfect place for him.

[@jimforehand7571]

Actually "old lady" and "old man" is also commonly used to refer to a wife or husband. At least here in the U.S. anyway.

[@Cainb23]

yeah and they clearly meant it that way too

[@KwehShiro]

when grog says "i cant run like i used to" i mean in my perspective i didn't see it as a im too old for this, more as a im not running anymore?

[@cajunseasoning1846]

personally, sounds to me as an "i'm too tired of this shyt" kind of thing

[@darklordshiro9856]

Interesting

[@TheBlackSquirrel]

While I don't agree with some of the reasoning, I really do like the idea that Grog in Majora's Mask is the same dude. ❤ I personally think that the creators intended for this NPC to be a very tragic figure, and that he left for the woods in a desperate attempt to get away from all the "disgusting" people. And when Link finds him in the Lost Woods, he really is lost but also doesn't care about being found either. He is depressed and miserable and too weak from exhaustion and starvation to leave even if he wanted to. But seeing Link with Coujiro reminds him that there are good people in the world. Injecting him with temporary hope and a will to live. However, he is already close to death and by the time Link returns, the man is gone. His weak body taken by animals. His possessions stolen by the Skullkids or the Kokiri themselves. But with that being said, after watching this theory I am now convinced that even the creators felt sorry for this figure, and when making Majora's Mask they decided to take this person's vague fate and give it a more happy ending. After all, who is to say that child Link, after telling Zelda about Ganondorf, didn't go the Kakariko village and gave a very sad, unhappy man a reason to live...?

[@poojr.3559]

I could be wrong but it always seemed like grog intentionally wandered into the woods, knowing of it’s reputation- that people become lost. I think he went into the woods when he officially had given up on life. His comatose-like state suggests he was slowing slipping into death/ becoming a stalfos… I think he was so shocked when link pulled out Cojiro because he probably saw that if his blue Cucco could trust another person it meant that their was a glimmer of hope in humanity.. I think Grog’s sudden urgency was from changing his mind about wanting to die. It’s just a theory, and a little dark, that as he was dying he could have a change of heart. He hurriedly sends Link for the cure, but that, inevitably, it would be too late.

[@bryangarza254]

Okay first of all, Grog in Termina being the same person as the man in Kakariko village is my new head cannon lol. Second, I'm not sure about the rest of the world but it's quite common in America for people to refer to their spouses as old lady and old man especially in the south and younger people referring to their parents as old lady and old man. Especially when you consider the carpenter refers to her as "my old lady" implying that she's his wife and Grog refers to her as the "old lady" implying that she's his mom.

[@hollyhartwick3832]

There are a couple of clues in Grog’s dialogue that seem to have been overlooked. He says he’s perfectly satisfied. Here... Suggesting perhaps he used to live somewhere else where he wasn’t satisfied. He also says he can’t just run away like he used to. Suggesting, again, he has a history of running away from his problems.

[@Celestyal22]

"My Old Lady" is in reference to ones wife, in a tongue and cheek sort of way. I don't believe Granny is said wife either.

[@homerman76]

It can also refer to one's own mother

[@Celestyal22]

@@homerman76 I'm sure in some parts of the world, just not here. Lol

[@Cainb23]

@@Celestyal22 yeah the non americans are trying so hard tp push back on this but they clearly meant that to be his wife

[@morphrelink]

Came here to write the same thing. The slang is "My old lady" refers to ones wife while "My old man" refers to ones father in the area where I grew up. Usually something guys say to one another and I don't often hear it from women.

[@Andreas0427]

@@Cainb23 "the non americans" you know Nintendo is Japanese, right?

[@_edgardo_]

The phrase "I can't run like I used to, anyway." suddenly takes on a whole new meaning. Great theory! I though there was nothing new to uncover from that quest since years ago, I'm amazed

[@mikeysrose]

MaskedNintendoBandit made a video a year ago about how Darmani ended up in the massive statue above Goron City, and theorized that Termina is/was actually reachable from Hyrule via normal avenues. Maybe there was some knowledge about Termina in Hyrule, and if Granny has a history of "field study" in her younger years, maybe she explored the Lost Woods enough that she made it to Termina and spoke of it to her family.

[@tomaandkile]

Fado's bubbly reaction doesn't really weird me out much considering the way they all just kinda stood there smiling while Link's mom turned into a tree, and then possibly proceeded to hollow her out into a house. The kokiri seem to have that child like innocence where they don't really fear or care much about death. Either that or they just don't care much about Hylian life.

[@JaidynReiman]

Link's mom didn't turn into a tree, though. Link's mom turned into a tree in the _manga_ which is not canon. None of the Kokiri act this way in the game except Fado, which is why makes her stand out.

[@dawnbreaker2912]

I've always assumed it was meant to be a somber reference to Aokigahara, Japan's infamous "suicide forest".

[@goodnightmyprince6734]

Makes sense...unfortunately

[@RyuuKageDesu]

I hear couples call each other their "old man" and "old woman" quite often. Also, we know that the path between the two worlds is not a one way trip. The conflict, as it was in the Ocarina of Time adult time frame may have caused him to worry about his family, causing him to want to go back, to check on things. In the Child timeline, he could have felt more at ease leaving his family behind.

[@SeeMyDolphin]

I agree that "Old lady" implies wife in English, but the Japanese line is ウチのババ, which means "my grandmother", so it's just a case of bad translation.

[@SeeMyDolphin]

And as usual, Hyrule Historia is wrong. No surprises there.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@SeeMyDolphin I made a separate comment about this. Thank you for the Japanese text.

[@wintersong2266]

I think it would make sense that Termina would be disconnected from the timeline split that happened in Hyrule since it's an alternate universe and all and if that's the case Grog might still be the same version we saw in the Adult timeline.

[@aaronrowell6943]

This was a surprisingly uplifting theory I really like it

[@johnkackley3838]

I just always figured it was simpler than that. There's no standing model of him used in either game, so I guessed the box he sits on is part of the character model and they removed the whole thing rather than make a separate entity. Alternatively, size relevance is very frequently ignored; Bottling the Deku princess. The saw is bigger than the box and bags, not like it was concealed in a coat, so maybe all the stuff there was representative of the saw itself. Unless someone confirms a stand alone asset of the box/bags separate from him, these will continue to be my theories. Also I didn't get the impression that the sister was particularly in to chickens, I had the impression that she viewed it as a responsibility, her way of showing loyalty to her brother, caring for his treasured pets while he's away, on familial responsibilities/avoiding the family altogether. It did strike me as a pinch odd that there was no Stalfos added, but the only ones in game were kid sized or giant sword & board warriors. Neither of those really represent his size or demeanor.

[@gloverbaby1]

Yay!!! I love your theories. Makes me think!! Especially over my favorite Zelda game!!!

[@dimebag124]

OoT is at the top for most Zelda fans fav Zelda games. Why do you think Oot is referenced in BotW sooo much? BotW even has the damn temple of time in it!

[@kylestillwell7031]

Just coming here to say that, at least in America, while “My Old Man” is used to mean “My Father”, “My Old Lady” is almost exclusively used to mean “My Wife” and could be the choice they went with to make the master carpenter character appear more gruff

[@darkychao]

Tingle also appears in at least one game set prior to MM in the timeline, so, it's more likely that Tingle's just one of those characters who has counterparts in both realms, and not that he found a way to travel between Termina and Hyrule. although, he is something of a master cartographer, so, maybe it's not totally out of the question that he'd be able to find his way.

[@you4gotthepickles]

Did anyone else notice grog in majors mask literally say in the text box "I might as well stay put. I can't run like I used to, anyway" 16:41 could be referring to his family or running away from the war.

[@fractalfalco3964]

I think termimas timeline works like a funnel, where the timeline there moves at a fixed pace, and anything can come and go from any timeline.

[@felixthescholarlytitan4437]

Wasn’t Grog’s sister in OoT also allergic to Cocco’s? I could swear she had us gather the birds because she couldn’t touch them without breaking out. Thinking on it, seems a bit odd for a parent to allow their child to take part in something that they have a negative biological reaction too. Would have thought a parent would have either pushed the other siblings to help out or have them switch duties. Grog could have been a Cocco caretaker and his sister might have then been the only female carpenter we ever see in game.

[@Gucocdyrs]

She is allergic it’s probably a breed she can touch

[@jarrodnisly3333]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I believe the clues incicate that Grog used to tend the family cuccos, but quit due to depression caused by his mother's death. He was especially gifted at raising cuccos, his father said he doesn't want to work anymore and that now he wanders around instead, and - most importantly - his sister is allergic to cuccos. She even says she is still getting the hang of taking care of them when you gather them for her as a child. After Grog leaves his family job, his poor sister has to step up and take on his roles on top of her own, leading to their father resenting him. It seems like he is a worthless son, and the craftsman is a callous father. But really, they are all dealing with the same issue - the loss of their loved one. They are simply at different stages in the grieving process. The craftsman is angry, and instead of dealing with it he just keeps working and building, because that's all he knows. The son is depressed, and doesn't know what to do without his mom. His poor sister had to reach acceptance quickly, to keep her family from falling apart completely. Maybe his mother died in the forest while hunting for the mushroom and that's why Granny calls him a fool. She knew that he had been searching for 7 long years, and had refused to rest until he accomplished her goal. And after accomplishing that goal, he decides to move on.. he is still alive, but in Termina. He finally found peace raising cuccos, but in a different land, where a version of his mother is still alive, and running the inn. Maybe I've given too much thought to this? Who can say for sure.

[@lewstherintelamon244]

But Grog is a contemporary of Young Link, and OoT!Grog vanishes in the Adult Timeline.

[@matthewtalbot6505]

When it comes to the Kokori girl who seems pretty glib about a man apparently going missing in a possibly cursed woods, you have to remember that the Kokiri are basically Hyrules version of Elves or ‘the Fae Folk’. In the words of Terry Prachet: Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad. Most Fae-beings throughout folklore across the world have a very different worldview and outlook compared to us mortals. She may have been thinking in her head “it’s good that Grog probably got lost, he shouldn’t have been wandering in *our* (the Kokiri) lands. Now he will pay for his tresspass by defending it as a Stalfos for all time.” Or just as easily been thinking “now that man won’t be so sad anymore because he’ll get to play as a Skull Kid forever!” A very orange and blue morality. It’s almost impossible to know exactly what Fado was thinking, but it probably wasn’t something we humans would consider reasonable.

[@VoiceLess-HV]

"They say that when non-fairy folk enter the lost woods, they become monsters!" Link started his search for Navi right after the ending scene in OOT, since 7 years later skull kid stills just fine in the woods after link took the master sword it's likely to believe that links interference in this timeline was what caused the mask salesman to find the Majoras mask or the skull kid to cross pass with the salesman somehow, and the Salesman is another non-fairy folk that was wandering around the forest that ends up in Termina just like Link (at that moment) and possibly Grog. Maybe this alternate timeline "evil" skull kid was the one that did just like he did with Link and brought Grog to Termina making him the why Grog is in the future in OOT but in Termina in MM's or the non-fairy folks when they live but get lost in the woods, end up in different dimensions and that's why we never see them again as stalfos. My personal question now is, where are the Korok's Fairy?

[@ghouls3630]

Something to entertain me for 20 minutes? *Clicks*

[@jamiesykes4745]

Mood.

[@jaimecastellanos6404]

Thought the same thing

[@stevenmartinez6213]

I always thought the lost woods was based after the Aokigahara Forest in Japan

[@HeroOfLight13]

* Tingle's DECENDENTS, not "ancestors". I've been noticing a lot of people making this mistake in other videos, so I feel like it's an important distinction to make. "Decedents" are the children, grand children, etc of whoever is talked about. "Ancestors" are the people who came BEFORE the person, so the person in question would be THEIR descendent.

[@TimeAxis]

His ancestors appear in Minish Cap, which takes place in the distant past. That’s generally what people mean.

[@VulpinePIlot]

Yeah. The game was released later but chronologically before OOT, so ancestor was correct

[@morphrelink]

Really good theory, I've speculated the same all around except with the added point that Grog was in the lost woods because that's where his own son had lost his life. He had heard about the mushroom cure and was there to retrieve it. (This was likely in the same vein as someone who loses a loved one to cancer then spends the rest of their life looking for a cure.) The stump he sat down next to was likely where he had lost his son (Who likely became one of the skull kids. Link encounters) Later, Thanks to his sister, he took up raising Cuccos to help cope with losing his child. This in turn makes Granny Grogs mother and also grants her the title of Granny to Grogs child.

[@ABCRK18]

As much as I enjoy the theory, it can't possibly work out based on time frames. Grog as you call him left Hyrule with Adult Link and you don't even become an adult in the Majora's Mask. So it can't be the same guy Unless somehow traveling to termina takes people from various points in Hyrule to the same time in termina. Timelines just don't match up

[@SUZUM3_SHIN13S]

As a side note to my last comment - which I was typing the ideas literally seconds before they were being mentioned in the video - maybe Grog was suffering from depression due to his father refusing to let him look after his beloved Cuccos, which can show up as listlessness, silence, lack of appetite and several other things. Grog was pale (the listless wandering mentioned by his father could have been around the house), far too skinny (as if he had suffered from a lack of appetite for years) and often had trouble putting his sentences together.

[@jihongkim5270]

From what I have seen anime and manga, they do call their mother "old hag" or "granny" when they are not in good terms with her. Of course her name being "granny" is odd. Maybe the developers thought she is a granny to Link? Not blood related, but as a general description. I mean the master craftsman's name isn't master craftsman. It is a description. I'm not sure about other countries, but in Japan, it isn't a strange thing to call a random old lady a granny. In the same sense, a random man can be called an uncle, a random lady can be called an auntie, and so on. It is just one of the ways to specify someone when their name is unknown.

[@mmmmyeah1849]

Yeah, in asian cultures, it's actually very common and respectful.

[@ultraspinalki11]

13:59 Fado's casual behavior towards Grog's death may simply be how her and the Kokiris don't really care for the Hylians that come from beyond the forest. They view them with indifference and maybe even disdain since Hylians likely venture into the forest to take resources and perhaps cut down trees. Fado actually demands that Link gives her the mushroom medicine since it came from the woods right? For her, the curse of the Lost Woods is how justice is served to outsiders who trespass into the Kokiri's territory.

[@MossPoet]

I have been told that Saria’s song is the Song of Healing backwards, and since the Song of Healing, is...well...the Song of Healing, that makes Saria’s song the flip side of a song that heals people, being a very bad thing. Much like a curse.

[@popsicIes]

There's no actual proof of that; it's mostly speculation that caught a lot of traction when Ben Drowned was really popular. Not to mention that the two songs aren't actually each other reversed; the first three notes of each song are reversed but the rest aren't.

[@papersonic9941]

Btw, while the notes you play in-game are the ones used in the Song of Healing but backwards, the rest of Saria's Song sounds nothing like the Song of Healing when reversed.

[@wonderysusieqvasiliu8863]

Wow 😮

[@TheLEGOZora]

Beautiful!! Very well done. Right when I put pieces together to draw a conclusion, you immediately said what I was thinking. Fantastic, I will think about this every time I play either game. In the past the only thing I thought about was how his bags look like... Well... You know, white powder...

[@scottblack7182]

"My ol lady" is absolutely a common phrase and it specifically is referencing ones female partner. Dude cmon now 😑.

[@ultra824]

I do think Fado is covering for grog. The fact that she takes the potion (something that, as a kokiri, she would have no use for), implies that maybe grog asked her to make the exchange with link in such a way as to discourage anyone from looking for him. Personally, I like to think he made a home for himself somewhere in the lost woods themselves, occasionally trading with the kokiri for anything he can't get by foraging.

[@alteredstates927]

Majora's Mask was made in a very short amount of time (a year is what I remember having heard) and a whole lot of assets are reused from Ocarina, one being character skins. I also think the three day cycle and potential loss of progress was a way to make a game that is still woefully short in contrast to its predecessor seem longer, since at least some backtracking is unavoidable. I'm not hating on Majora, in fact I enjoyed it a lot, I just think the reuse of character skins was a matter of limitation, though it does compliment the parallel world scenario - even if the parallel world might be the only way our minds won't reject seeing Ocarina characters as entirely new people. It is confusing, for sure, especially when you factor that a couple characters ARE the same people. I will never understand why Nintendo (and other classic game companies) cannot dedicate one small team to creating more Ocarina/Majora style games, especially if they have the same graphics and technical limitations as N64 games. This was such a great era for Zelda and it's not like they couldn't make the new games concurrently...

[@mxjosh2000]

Side note the term "Old Lady" is a pretty common, if derogatory, nickname when talking about ones wife. Kind of like "The Old Ball and Chain"

[@kakarikokage2514]

A very relatable character for me.

[@SailorGreenTea]

16:39, run like I used to. It is him.

[@Lynk56]

I just scrolled down into the comments to say this; I’m surprised the creator hasn’t responded

[@AarturoSc]

The time discrepancy makes this extremely unlikely. You have to make a lot of assumptions in order to kind of see that happening, but on the other hand you don’t need to make much assumptions to know he most likely die in the Lost Woods. That and the way he pleads Link to get him a potion seemed desperate for his life, and what Granny says afterwards perfectly foreshadows what would be his untimely demise. As for the bags and stool? That’s just part of his character model. After you finish the trading sequence, you no longer see Fado there either, so Nintendo most likely didn’t create a separate model just for a little interaction when the area was supposed to get back to being deserted (for you to farm Skull Kids for Rupees). It’s just a really economic way of saving resources back in the N64 era that carried over, like some shopkeepers not having legs. It’s not all depressing. At least his Terminian counterpart lived without regrets.

[@steffenschmidt3470]

Game design or limitations are never an argument against a theorist, I think :D And I'm siding with the theorist here.

[@AarturoSc]

@@steffenschmidt3470 Ignorance is bliss!

[@ChrisThomasBone]

"Old Lady" is actually a quite common way to refer to your wife here in the States

[@MonsterMaze]

Isn't "old man" a more common term to describe your dad though? I remember Tidus from FF10 referring to his dad as "my old man". I guess I kinda assumed that would also go for old lady". But if that's not the case, I stand corrected ^^

[@ChrisThomasBone]

@@MonsterMaze Yea, I'm not sure why old man is more for father and old lady is for wife. Maybe we've all got mommy issues lol

[@Iudayus]

"my old lady" is an old term for someone's wife (along the lines of saying the old ball and chain) just FYI

[@Dinomatrix21]

16:40- Grog says "I can't run like I used to, anyway." That was a huge point that lends more credence to your theory, surprised you didn't actually point it out.

[@melody3741]

I REALLY hope this is true and if so I'm so so glad he found a purpose in life. It's so bizarre how simple the games are but the huge stories that are all happening in the background.

[@GorePhlegm]

A lot of people are missing the fact this is a direct translation from Japanese when they say "old lady means wife!!!" Somebodys old man/Old lady in japanese literally translates to it being somebodys mother or father or a generation up, not their spouse. Granny is absolutely grogs grandmother, not his mother.

[@desertyoshi_plays]

Very solid theory, I think it's quite plausible. And I always appreciate Majora's Mask content.

[@mikeysrose]

YESSSSSSSS This is the content I breathe for when I'm watching ZeldaTubers! Great work! You've convinced me.

[@highiqkong7419]

As positive and optimistic this theory is, I do think it was intended for Grog to have perished in the Lost Woods. > The N64, though the most powerful console during its time, still had limitations that limited the scope of Ocarina of Time. The layout of OoT's Lost Woods is probably only from the perspective of the player / developers, but in-lore it's far more complex; we shouldn't take its design literal, otherwise other aspects of OoT from a in-lore perspective would break. > Telling someone to run into town, and then to run back into a forbidden forest, to save them from transforming into a monster isn't the best sale's pitch. Grog omitting details is not outside of his character; his toxic relationship with his family is clearly a two-way problem, and he brags about how good of a person he is though he's mean to innocent children or strangers. Grog probably withheld serious information because the truth would've been too much bear. > Creepy children or sinister themes in Zelda isn't uncommon. (E.G., Majora's Mask) OoT had plenty of proto-MM scenes, tragedies, and sinister elements in it; the Bottom of the Well, future Hyrule Castle Town, and the Forest Temple to name a few. The developers using a little girl to casually convey a dark outcome to a person's life is well within their wheelhouse; after all, these are the same people who would make Majora's Mask 2 years later.

[@PoorlyDoneGaming]

Maybe he wanted to become a Stalfos to make himself even more metal.

[@patrick8358]

16:41 "I might as well stay put. I can't run like I used to, anyway" HARD EVIDENCE

[@Rune_Scholar]

"Okd Lady" and "Old Man" are literally euphemisms for one's spouse, often used in rural areas. I've literally never heard it used for your parents.

[@kevinbissinger]

old man is usually used for fathers, but old lady is usually used for wife. If you watch TV or Movies from the 90s or earlier, you've 100% heard "my old man" used for a parent.

[@ashleyanderson5398]

Transforming into a monster doesn’t happen when you’re PHYSICALLY lost in the woods. It happens when you are spiritually lost in the woods.

[@lildromepunch7920]

Really love this theory, always related to Grog and I love the idea that he found joy in his isolation

[@DaGrayson039]

Grog legacy lives on by his ancestors being a potion master.

[@furniture5223]

Had to say this: when "older generations" (those born in the early 1900's) in the U.S. refer to their wives, they would often call them their "old lady." It was a slang term meaning "wife" and not mother or grandmother. The Master Craftsman was likely still referring to his wife, Granny, and the book got it correct.

[@pink_phoenix]

Wild theory: the “Gramps” that Grog talks about is Granny’s husband and the father of the Master Craftsman. He was very unhappy in his life so he took off for the lost woods and discovered the land of Termina. The SkullKid ultimately met Gramps and heard about his grandson Grog. Grog set off for the Lost Woods in search of his missing grandfather (the only family member he considers a “nice guy”) and ran into the SkullKid who told him his grandfather is alive and well living on Romani Ranch in Termina. The SkullKid then served as Grog’s guide through the Lost Woods ultimately leading him to Termina where he was united with his grandfather and was able to raise Cuccoos like he has always wanted to do

[@lasercraft32]

Plot Twist: The guy turning into a Stalfos is all a cover up. Fado is secretly a serial killer.

[@captainabsol1207]

Something to ADD to the theory is to remember that we cant be certain about when or where the events of Majoras Mask took place. All we know is that to get there, Link fell through a portal. And things in this world might run a little differently with their laws of time and physics, even the ocarina has a power here that it didn't get back in hyrule, its able to actually rewind time. So perhaps it truly is a seperate world like Lorule wherein rewinding time in hyrule changes nothing. That could be why he remained in Termina after you win, time wasnt rewound 7 years there, and because He didnt just choose to return to hyrule, he would just vanish from hyrule so he wouldnt appear at the celebration. So in Hyrule, Link is forced to actually wait out those 7 years and Grog gets to disappear into termina. But when Link comes back 7 years, he obly affects hyrule. Thats why he can meet Grog in Termina as a kid when he only to to Termina when Link was an adult.

[@Sarah_H]

Also at 16:40, when talking to Termina-Grog about the moon falling, Termina-Grog says "I can't run like I used to, anyway". Possibly referring to running away from Hyrule?

[@calebpeyton4704]

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe Grog is the same guy of OoT. At 16:40, Grog says “I might as well stay put. I can’t run like I used to, anyway.” Maybe he’s talking about how he can’t physically run anymore like he probably did when he ran errands, or maybe he’s saying that he can’t run like he used to, referring to how he was running from his problems by running away from his family, and that’s why we see him in the Lost Woods. Either way, I like to think, and have always thought that Grog was the same guy from OoT, and it was nice to see him actually seeming to be happy for a change raising Cucoos in Termina.

[@harshal1153]

Small correction: Tortus is Granny's son and Anju's father. The Keaton in Majora's mask confirms this

[@kingloucifur8086]

The 'grandfather' Grog refers to in Majora's Mask, if this theory is correct, could simply be a man who took him in once he found himself in termina. This kind of affectionate nickname is common in Japan and is commonly translated to grandfather/grandmother, despite having no blood relation

[@Karuminu2]

A depressed man going into a seemingly cursed forest to 'disappear'. Doesn't that sound like a reference to Aokigahara, the suicide forest in Japan near Mount Fuji?

[@diegoaespitia]

nah, the woods definitely either get you completely lost or turn you into a stalfos. Link looks exhausted in the Majoras Mask intro like hes been wandering for days and the mask salesman is almost an otherworldly being

[@jordanstafford5110]

The writer of ocarina of time is from ikeda, which is in Osaka, which is 330km from mt Fuji. The aokigahara forest is at my Fuji's base and it's mythologized to be full of spirits (not all evil spirits). There is also a myth that compasses don't work in the woods because of iron deposits. (Lost woods that are full of wandering spirits and lead to the next world) sound familiar?

[@danielowen926]

I love your channel. I don't subscribe often but I subscribed to you and I've watched most of your zelda theory videos probably about 20-30 times by now. The makers of zelda should make your theory videos canon. Oh and please make more!

[@iLLadelph267]

Grog felt like an outcast, he knew about odd mushrooms from his granny, and he knew where they grew in the woods... if I didn't know better I'd say Grog just wanted to go for a lil trip

[@vtjakiela]

Its implied that he turned into a stalfos. Its like the race with the running man. No matter how fast you return, you always 1 second too late. The kikori girl took his bags

[@scxrs139]

Referring to one’s spouse as “Ole lady” or “ole Man” is quite common in the Southern US

[@Sk-qjtir]

I stopped at 6.18 to tell you this: When I played through ocarina of time, I did so very meticolously. I talked to EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER (and I didn't read any encyclopedias etc) and something someone behind a door says strongly indicated to me that granny is indeed married to the master craftsman. Talk to people in kakariko at different times of day if you want to investigate further on your own

[@revalentinemashups510]

Well, that was more wholesome than i expected. Nice to see from a zelda theory, which more often than not lean in to the darker elements of the series.

[@titanoboaoficial2014]

Man i discovered your channel and is brutally awesome and adictive!!!!

[@BurdieFromHell]

6:20 You need to watch Sons of Anarchy. In that show, the bikers refer to their *main* girlfriends/wives as "their old lady", especially the older bikers do this. Therefore, I think it's possible that Granny is the Master Craftmans wife.

[@jokerzbabe13]

About the confusion sirrounding Grog and Granny's relationship, this should be noted. I don't know about the rest of the world but in some rural areas of the united states, "My Old Man" indeed refers to one's father, BUT "My Old Lady" is only used to refer to one's wife. Often heard being used by older married gentlemen, ie: "I gotta go, my old lady's waitin" or "I don't think my old lady would like that."

[@michaelpeer1753]

In light of the theories you mentioned concerning people being cursed through death in the woods, I realized "lost in the woods" could be a euphemism for something else Japan is infamous for. Something an unfortunate inluencer, who shall remain unnamed, stumbled upon during his visit to Japan, a few years back.

[@SeeMyDolphin]

11:03 Link doesn't have the Triforce of Courage until after he breaks the seal on the Sacred Realm and Ganondorf splits the Triforce, but Link is able to navigate the Lost Woods before this happens (e.g. from the very start of the game). I think the more likely explanation is that fairies allow you to navigate the Lost Woods (e.g. Navi), which is why Kokiri are able to navigate it. That wouldn't explain the Happy Mask Salesman, but the Happy Mask Salesman is already one of the most mysterious characters in LoZ anyways. You could argue that Link navigates the Lost Woods in the beginning of MM, but for all we know he could be lost during that time and wandering aimlessly (note that he also doesn't have the Triforce of Courage in MM).